Guest: Art Wood, Benvinda De Sousa, Dave Holloway, Robin Holloway, Jayne
Weintraub, Wendy Murphy, Vito Colucci, Chris Whitcomb, Ben Presson, Eli
Polk, Daniel Horowitz, Ash Joshi
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Stunning developments out of Aruba tonight. Could big arrests there finally lead to finding Natalee Holloway? The Kalpoe brothers, Deepak and Satish, are behind bars again, arrested once again on suspicion of rape and murder in the disappearance of Natalee.
NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski has the bombshell news out of Aruba for us.
Michelle, tell us how this all went down.
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rita, this is a surprise to most people. When you talked to people about this possibility in the case, even as recently as a couple of days ago, many people would say, No, it couldn‘t happen. There‘s just been a general belief among people associated with the case, among defense attorneys, that prosecutors have had very little evidence to go on, especially against the two suspects who have been out of jail.
Well, now we know that‘s not the case, that prosecutors do have something, because this morning, police went to the Kalpoe brothers‘ house, arrested both of them, as well as a friend and neighbor of Joran Van Der Sloot‘s. Now, prosecutors made it very, very clear that the arrest of the Kalpoe brothers is connected to Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance but that the arrest of the friend is not.
We were able to talk to one of the suspect‘s attorneys, and he gave us some more information. He said that he believed that the arrests of these people made today is actually based information involving four people, the two Kalpoe brothers, the friend and, he says, Joran Van Der Sloot, although there has been nothing new, to our knowledge, brought against Joran, and prosecutors have not mentioned anything new against him in terms of evidence or information.
This defense attorney also told me he believed these arrests were based at least in part on new allegations that could involve photographs and young girls. Again, no one else is commenting on that part of the investigation.
And here‘s what prosecutors are saying, at least as it regards the Kalpoe brothers. “They are suspected of the primary criminal act of together with other people committing premeditated murder. Alternately, together with other people, murdering somebody, more alternately, rob a person of her liberty with fatal consequences, and even more alternately raping somebody.”
Aside from these suspicions against the two brothers, there are new suspicions. And the prosecutor goes onto say that they‘re not commenting on that. And they also say to arrest these Kalpoe brothers again, there had to be new facts and circumstances brought forth, and they say that is the case.
Now, Beth Holloway Twitty has also been, you know, pushing this case forward, hoping for this. But prosecutors are releasing very little details about these arrests, what they‘re based on exactly, and that‘s been frustrating even for the suspects‘ attorneys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELGIN ZEPPENFELDT, SATISH KALPOE‘S ATTORNEY: Basically, we don‘t know. they haven‘t not shown us any evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
ZEPPENFELDT: No, this is not normal. Only in Aruba is it normal, arrest people and don‘t show them the evidence.
QUESTION: Are you upset? Are you upset?
ZEPPENFELDT: Of course I am. This is nonsense!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOSINSKI: So how is Natalee‘s family reacting to this? Well, you might know her mother has been off the island for a couple of days. It was hard for her to leave, in fact. She felt like something might happen over the past couple of days. She was attending a fund-raiser. And today, we were able to talk to friends of the family who said this was the big news to her. This is something that she has been working for for a long time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S MOTHER: Jug and I and several other family members, we felt early on, as early as May 31, that these boys should have been arrested then, on that day. And like Jug said, we spoke with our attorney and FBI this morning, and just really encouraged about this news and just—we just want to wait, though, until we get further updates from them before we come forward with any more information on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOSINSKI: We‘re told that these three arrestees will be held for at least four days. Then there will be a hearing to determine if they will be held even longer than that. But again, prosecutors aren‘t giving us any details as to the exact specifics behind these arrests—Rita.
COSBY: All right, Michelle. Thank you very much.
And everybody, we‘re going to have a lot more family reaction in just a few minutes. In fact, Natalee Holloway‘s father, and also his wife, will be joining us in just a few seconds.
Meantime, Art Wood is a private investigator who‘s been scouring the island for clues. He‘s been on top, all over the story. He joins us now LIVE AND DIRECT tonight from Aruba. Art, what are you hearing in terms of what this evidence could be?
ART WOOD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, good evening, Rita. You know, I‘m not sure what the evidence is. I‘m hearing that these young girls that we‘ve talked about have come forward, and that could be part of the evidence. It certainly is something that I knew that the police were working on.
COSBY: Have you heard anything about photos? That was something that I was hearing from my contacts, as well, and also something possibly something about e-mails. But I was hearing something on photos, maybe something that disputes the alibi where these guys say they were at a certain time, and also something tied to this third guy who was brought in today.
WOOD: Well, the third guy that was brought in is a friend and neighbor of Joran‘s. His name is Freddy. I‘ve seen a lot of pictures with him and the other three suspects. But as far as photos that are tied to the case, this is the first that I‘ve heard of it.
COSBY: What is the sense there on the ground, Art? You‘ve got a good pulse on sort of the read of things. Does this seem extremely significant? Could this be the big break?
WOOD: Well, I think it is extremely significant. As far as it being the big break, if one of these kids talks, it‘s going to be the break we‘ve been waiting for. But I think there‘s still more people involved, still more evidence out there. And this is certainly a significant development because putting these kids back in jail and putting some pressure on a fourth suspect could change this whole case.
COSBY: Absolutely. And what‘s the reaction from the community there?
What‘s the sense in Aruba?
WOOD: Well, I think that most of the Arubans are excited about it. You know, I know the police are happy about this latest development. The Aruban police are working hard to solve this case. They need to solve this case. To get the pressure of the international press off their back and to prove that they‘re a first-class police entity, they need to solve this case.
COSBY: Now, September 4 was the date on which they could possibly release Joran. Is your sense, just from talking to folks on the ground there, Art, that this is obviously going to have a big impact on keeping him behind bars?
WOOD: Absolutely. I think Joran has no chance of being released on September 4. I suspect that all four of these kids are now—are going to be in jail for quite some time. But we‘ll see. We‘ll let the judge of instruction decide whether the evidence is current enough to keep them there.
COSBY: All right, All right. Thank you very much. Keep us posted, as always.
And the question tonight seems to be, Why were the Kalpoe brothers taken back into custody? This week, Satish Kalpoe‘s attorney hinted that primary suspect Joran Van Der Sloot was behind bars because of his inability to tell the truth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID KOCK, SATISH KALPOE‘S ATTORNEY: It‘s one person who has kept changing his story, and I think, too, that that is one of the reasons why that person is still detained, but not that the case has progressed that there are solutions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And if Joran is the only one with a changing story, well, then why are his friends under arrest?
Benvinda De Sousa is the Holloway family attorney. She‘s also there in Aruba tonight.
Benvinda, what is the sense? You know, you‘re there on the ground. You‘re familiar with the law there. Does this evidence have to be fairly strong to re-arrest these guys again?
BENVINDA DE SOUSA, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, yes, it depends. If it‘s re-arrest based on known facts and circumstances regarding the old charges, then it has to be pretty strong. Now, as Michelle read the press release of the prosecutor‘s office, there are also new suspicions. If it pertains to new suspicions, we go back to square one in these new suspicions, and it has to be a reasonable suspicion that they were involved in these new charges. And then the evidence, the threshold, like I explained before, is then lower than the one needed right now to re-arrest them based on the old charges in order to keep them in custody any longer.
COSBY: Although you would think, with all the world looking right now, Benvinda, and the publicity of these arrests, you would think they‘d have to have something pretty substantive to go to this degree, don‘t you think?
DE SOUSA: Yes, definitely. I do think that they have something pretty substantial in order to be able to effect these re-arrests. Remember, the threshold, like I explained this, is pretty high, and they can‘t just re-arrest them on reasonable suspicion. It has to be stronger.
COSBY: You‘re the Natalee Holloway family attorney. What sense are you getting as to sort of what evidence could be? Have gotten any inklings, any hints?
DE SOUSA: Well, of course, I was briefed by the prosecution early this morning that the arrests have taken place. As I‘m briefed daily, I relay this information both Beth and Jug Twitty and Dave and Robin Holloway. We—I can‘t comment on any further details because it pertains to the investigation...
COSBY: Real quickly...
DE SOUSA: ... because, you know...
COSBY: ... do you believe this is the break? Do you believe this is the break?
DE SOUSA: You know, that would be speculation because, then again—and I agree with what Art said a little while ago. You know, it is a very significant happening in this investigation, in this process. But let‘s see if anybody cracks or anybody talks. And of course, that would be the big break that everybody has been waiting for. But we still have to wait and see. Of course, I don‘t know all the ins and outs of the investigation, at this point in time.
COSBY: Well, let‘s hope somebody does break. Thank you very much, Benvinda. We appreciate you being with us.
DE SOUSA: You‘re very welcome.
COSBY: Thank you.
And we want to turn now to Dave and Robin Holloway, Natalee‘s father and also stepmother. They us now right now on the phone tonight from Mississippi. Dave, let me start with you. You know, I know you got a call from the FBI this morning. What‘d they tell you?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE‘S FATHER: Well, they indicated to me that re-arrests had been made early this morning and advised me that the Kalpoe brothers had been re-arrested and another (INAUDIBLE) had also been arrested in connection with this case.
COSBY: And Dave, how did you feel? What was your reaction? I bet you were just thrilled.
DAVE HOLLOWAY: Well, yes. We were facing (INAUDIBLE) and a possible release, although I was hopeful that Joran‘s detention would continue, along with the information developed from the (INAUDIBLE) that had come forward, along with possibly three other people. I was hopeful that Joran would remain behind bars, but this adds to it.
The prosecution is—you know, they‘ve been beaten down by the nine defense lawyers, and I think the arrests today and the evidence they‘ve gotten today, it‘s my understanding that they‘re real upbeat about it and confident moving forward. And that makes...
COSBY: That‘s what I wanted to ask you, Dave. Is that the mood? You know, because you can get a pretty good read from these guys. They seem to be taking this very seriously, and there seems to be a sense of confidence, right?
DAVE HOLLOWAY: Exactly. I think the defense team is on their heels right now, and the prosecution feels good about the case. So I feel like we‘re getting ready to move forward on this. We‘ve got the Dutch interrogators here, and I think we‘re going to get down to some business now.
COSBY: Are you getting a sense, Dave, that they need someone to crack or that they have something physical, something tangible that may be enough in and of itself?
DAVE HOLLOWAY: I think they‘ve got some tangible evidence. It‘s obvious to me that they don‘t want to make the same mistake that was made early on, arrest someone and then turn around and then allow them to go free. It‘s my understanding that the prosecutor was so confident about the information that she bypassed those first 10 days of normal detention, and the court ruled that we could already go into the pretrial stages, where additional DNA and other evidence could be obtained.
COSBY: Yes, it sounds like they were able to kind be a little more aggressive in their search because they‘ve moved up that timeframe. Dave, have you gotten any indication what this evidence is, if it‘s related to photos, if it‘s related to testimony from this young girl who says that Joran raped her? Are you getting sort of an inkling or at least some suggestion?
DAVE HOLLOWAY: Well, I wouldn‘t be speculative about anything. They have—from my understanding, they had enough information to make some arrests, and the prosecution is not going to provide any details regarding what evidence they have at this point in time.
COSBY: Do you have a sense if it‘s testimony or physical evidence though, Dave?
DAVE HOLLOWAY: Well, you know, I‘m not real sure, Rita. I just do know that they want to be careful about when they re-arrest someone, that they have sufficient evidence to do so. You know, the Kalpoe brothers were in custody for the first time, and then they were—a judge allowed them to go free. You‘re not going to make the same mistake twice. So I think the defense is up on their heels and the prosecution feels like that they‘re on the right track now.
COSBY: Oh, it sounds like it. And Dave, I understand Robin‘s also with you, your beautiful wife. Robin, what does this...
ROBIN HOLLOWAY, NATALEE‘S STEPMOTHER: Hi, Rita.
COSBY: ... mean to you and your family? How are you, Robin?
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: Oh...
COSBY: You and I talked this morning.
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: Yes, that‘s...
COSBY: You must be so thrilled.
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: I was—I was happy this morning. I mean, just other than bringing Natalee home alive, I mean, this is some of the best news we could have heard. And you know, we‘ve known from day one that the Kalpoe brothers should have been brought back in, and we‘re just—I mean, it‘s nice to know that they‘ve really, really been working hard and just hope and pray that they‘ve got enough evidence to hold them and keep them and get our answers. And that‘s all we want, is our answers on Natalee. So just—but we‘re thrilled to hear that today.
COSBY: And Robin, are you getting the same sense that Dave is, that there‘s a confidence this time, that there is sort of something substantive? That‘s the read I‘m getting.
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: I just really don‘t think they would have brought them in and arrested them again unless they had really good evidence and reason to. So yes, we do feel confident about that, so...
COSBY: You know, everyone is looking at that September 4 sort of deadline for Joran, whether to be released or not. Are you optimistic that this is going to put a little pressure and obviously maybe keep him behind bars a lot longer?
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: Oh, we‘ve been worried about September 4, and I do feel better about that date coming up, that they will keep him at least for 30 more days and hopefully bring some charges against him. So we—yes, we do feel better about that, so—we‘ve been dreading that day, so I do feel better about it now, after today.
COSBY: Well, both of you, thank you so much. It was great to talk with you. And please keep us posted. Nice to have some good news from both of you, for a change.
DAVE HOLLOWAY: Thank you.
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you, both of you, very much.
And still ahead, everybody, we‘ll tell you how interrogators get to the truth when three suspects have different stories about what happened to Natalee Holloway. And that‘s not all we‘ve got. We‘ve got a lot ahead tonight, especially with these big developments out of Aruba.
Coming up: Natalee‘s mother has been pointing the finger at the Kalpoe brothers all along.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TWITTY: We felt early on, as early as May 31, that these boys should have been arrested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: So what is so big now that the police decided to act?
Plus, accusations of premeditated murder. Does that mean the three boys actually planned Natalee‘s death?
And three fishermen who went to sea with Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend have some surprising new details about the day he vanished. You‘ll only see it here.
And a California housewife tells me she stabbed her husband to death in self-defense. Does her own son believe it? He‘ll join me LIVE AND DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TWITTY: ... just to continue, continue our search for the truth in Aruba, and I just feel like when I take a step out of Aruba and come back to Birmingham, it clears my mind and gives me more strength and determination to go back and to find the answers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that was Natalee Holloway‘s mother today, talking about those big developments out of Aruba, the Kalpoe brothers re-arrested. Investigators say they have new evidence connecting them to the rape and what they are saying was the, quote, “premeditated murder” of Natalee Holloway.
And joining me now is former prosecutor Wendy Murphy, also defense attorney Jayne Weintraub.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Rita.
COSBY: And on the phone is private detective Vito Colucci.
Wendy, I got to start with you because I think the verbiage is key here, “ Premeditated murder,” saying that there was, what, some planning? What do you believe happened, Wendy, sort of reading into this?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I mean, this is, no question, a very big development because there are six billion people are on the planet, only three know what happened. Maybe four now, with this new witness, but three people know exactly what happened. And you can‘t get at the truth unless you can squeeze at least one of them to tell on the others. And the Kalpoes, without being under arrest, were never going to do that. So now that they‘re not only re-arrested but facing the highest charge possible, the pressure is huge! They are going to be squeezed!
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: Wendy, the pressure was on Aruba to re-arrest them and the pressure was on them to make up a case. That‘s what the pressure‘s on. When you squeeze...
MURPHY: Make it up?
WEINTRAUB: ... somebody over and over...
COSBY: But now, Jayne, do you believe...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Do you believe these are made-up charges, or do you think that they actually have something substantive to go to this degree?
WEINTRAUB: I really don‘t think it‘s something substantive. I think that they think it may be, but I really don‘t believe it is because I think that there‘s still no eyewitness, no weapon. There‘s no murder. There‘s no body.
MURPHY: You don‘t know that, Jayne!
WEINTRAUB: There is no evidence...
MURPHY: Jayne, you don‘t know that!
COSBY: Although, Jayne -- (INAUDIBLE) let me—let me interrupt you because, Jayne, if you just heard from Dave Holloway, he got the impression, and I believe he probably even knows more than he‘s saying—he got the impression that there‘s something sort of physical to hold onto, not just testimony. So maybe there‘s photos. Maybe there‘s something out there, Jayne. If there is, then this could be a bombshell.
WEINTRAUB: If there are photos out there, Rita, don‘t you think, with all the criticism—even the prime minister is out there admitting he made mistakes. The police were awful. The investigation goes kaput. Don‘t you think if there were photos out there, we would have seen them or heard about them?
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: You guys, let me bring in Vito because Vito‘s on the phone. Vito, is it possible that something, some development comes forward, maybe some new person we hadn‘t heard from before, who says, Look, I can prove that he wasn‘t at the bar when he said he was. I have something that breaks the alibi. Someone finally breaks their silence?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, I really hope so, Rita. The only trouble is, we‘ve been disappointed so many times on this case over 90 days, you know? And not only that, you know, they—where‘s the interrogation skills that are going to happen now? This is a very important part. These people have never had a case like this. I want to be an optimist on this. I really do, for the sake of the family and everything. But you know, I got to take a wait-and-see attitude on this. I really do, Rita.
WEINTRAUB: Rita, may I just say...
COSBY: Yes, go ahead...
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: ... about the interrogation? You know, it brings up the point that Wendy was making earlier about squeezing somebody. That‘s the problem here. We get what‘s called false confessions. These boys have been interrogated hour after hour, day after day...
MURPHY: Jayne—Jayne...
WEINTRAUB: ... they‘ll say anything.
MURPHY: ... they got 19 lawyers! I don‘t think...
COSBY: But Wendy...
MURPHY: And Daddy‘s a judge.
COSBY: Exactly. And...
MURPHY: There‘s not going to be a false confession.
COSBY: Wendy, how else are you going to get people to talk? I mean, you got to have some leverage over them, right, Wendy?
MURPHY: Absolutely! There‘s nothing wrong with squeezing people to talk. And this is the point.
COLUCCI: Rita...
MURPHY: They‘re under arrest for the highest possible charge!
COLUCCI: Hey, Rita?
MURPHY: Now, maybe they didn‘t kill her...
COSBY: Let me get Vito on...
MURPHY: ... maybe they were only...
COSBY: Let me get Vito in, you guys.
MURPHY: ... accessories, but those...
COSBY: He‘s on the phone. Vito...
(CROSSTALK)
COLUCCI: Rita, don‘t forget, we‘re missing one important factor here. No plea bargains in Aruba, OK? You can squeeze them as much as you want, but you can‘t cut any deals with them. No plea bargains.
COSBY: So Vito, how do you get something out of them? I‘m glad you brought that up because I was going to bring that up to you. How do you get them, then? Where‘s the leverage, if you can‘t, you know, bargain them out?
COLUCCI: Well, you do whatever you can. You have to still try to play them against each other, Rita. The only problem is, I‘m wondering if they know how to do that. Before this case, the biggest crime on that island were thefts from tourists‘ hotel rooms. So this is not just something you pull out a playbook and you‘re able to do. I...
MURPHY: Rita, that‘s not entirely true. Under Dutch law, they can actually ultimately charge one of the Kalpoes with a lesser crime. It‘s not quite a plea bargain, but it is possible, under Dutch law, even though it hasn‘t been done in Aruba.
Look, the biggest problem is here, 19 lawyers with muzzles, saying to these guys, Just do nothing, stay silent. You will win at the end. Maybe there‘ll be a trial and they‘ll win. This might be what the lawyers are saying now.
COSBY: I have a question, Wendy...
(CROSSTALK)
MURPHY: ... Deepak blames Joran, Joran blames Deepak. Once you do this cross finger-pointing dance at the trial, they all might walk!
COSBY: Wendy, is that where you expect it to head? Do you think it‘s going to go to trial, or do you think...
MURPHY: Absolutely!
COSBY: ... we‘ll see somebody crack?
MURPHY: Absolutely! And I think we‘re seeing the defense strategy play itself out now. Why the defense attorneys are now going on the tubes, saying, Well, you know, Deepak said Joran did it. Or you know...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Yes, you‘re seeing a lot of finger-pointing. Jayne, go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Jayne—let me get Jayne in...
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: ... case, Wendy! You know that. Except it won‘t matter because in Aruba, they don‘t have a jury. They‘re going to try it to the judge.
MURPHY: But the point is, the judge is going to say, I know all three were involved, but I can‘t figure out beyond a reasonable doubt which one actually killed her. And that...
(CROSSTALK)
MURPHY: ... all of them to walk. It‘s why the JonBenet Ramsey parents are both free, because you can‘t try the father, he‘ll blame the mother. You can‘t try the mother, she‘ll—so they both walk. It‘s a strategy defense attorneys like you...
COSBY: Let me—you guys...
MURPHY: ... Jayne, use all the time!
COSBY: Wendy—Wendy, I got to interrupt you. Let me bring in Vito.
Vito, where do you see this heading?
COLUCCI: I still think they‘re going to walk, Rita. I hate to say it. Unless I see something else. I know everybody‘s enthused about what‘s happened today. It‘s a start. But I don‘t know. I still don‘t feel something in me—I still don‘t feel good about it yet. I really don‘t, Rita. I still think these guys are going to walk. I don‘t trust any of those people in Aruba. I hate to say. it. I do not trust that whole system there.
COSBY: Jayne, your final thoughts, Jayne.
WEINTRAUB: There‘s no evidence of a murder that we‘ve heard about. All we know is there was a tragic, apparently, a death after a night of drinking and dancing at Carlos and Charlie‘s, and we don‘t know how or where or who did anything to this young lady.
COSBY: Well, we may get some more answers in the coming days. Guys, thanks very much, everybody.
WEINTRAUB: Thank you.
COSBY: Thank you.
And still ahead, we‘re going inside the Holloway investigation, how detectives learned what the Kalpoes were up to without them even knowing it.
And then to another big mystery. You‘ll be shocked by the story of two fishermen. They are going to tell you about what they saw the day that Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend vanished. They were on that same boat.
And also, new clues about a missing model. We‘ve got details about the last time anyone saw Julie Popovich. That‘s all ahead on LIVE AND DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And if you‘re just joining us now, we have more on the stunning developments out of Aruba tonight. New evidence has put the Kalpoe brothers back behind bars and back at the center of the Natalee Holloway investigation.
We‘re joined now by Chris Whitcomb, who is a former FBI agent. He‘s also the author, and his latest novel is entitled “White.” Chris, great to talk with you. I know I talked with you before I even joined the network, so it‘s nice to have you on.
What do you think is the break in this case?
CHRIS WHITCOMB, FORMER FBI AGENT: Hi, Rita. Look, any time they get someone in jail, it gives investigators an opportunity to interview them. You hear the term “interrogate” all the time, but this is more familial. Anything that they can get in terms of pressure, I think, will help enormously. There‘s been precious little physical evidence in this case. Anything that they can try to get out of them, in terms of getting closer to a confession, is going to help enormously.
COSBY: Do you believe that there is something sort of physical, something to hold only here, Chris? The sense we got from Dave Holloway, Natalee‘s father, was that he thinks there‘s something here, it‘s not just testimony, it‘s not just hypothetical.
WHITCOMB: I think there has to be, Rita. Look, they can easily put
someone in jail, hold them for a number of different reasons, if they just
want to get them off the street, and they could have in this case. When
they come out with charges this dramatic, I think that they have to back
them up. This is a highly—a high-profile case. It‘s an international
case. And they have to understand that everyone is going to look at the
re-arrest of these brothers as a big turning point in the investigation. I
don‘t think they would have been as forceful in the charges and as forceful in what they‘ve said unless they had something to back it up.
COSBY: No, I agree. The other question, too, Chris, these two guys, the two brothers who were out, rearrested again. Give us a sense—I mean, the FBI and also the Aruban authorities in particular don‘t just sit back and let them, you know, knit a sweater in the last few weeks when they‘ve been out. What have they been doing?
WHITCOMB: They‘ve been watching them constantly. There‘s no doubt about that.
COSBY: Surveillance, right? What types of things?
WHITCOMB: Certainly surveillance. And I think it‘s probably been overt. I think that they—in an island this small, it‘s very difficult to hide. There were a lot of—there were investigators, there were reporters, and there were people just trying to get on with their lives.
It‘s very difficult to fit in and do any kind of covert surveillance.
So I think it‘s probably been out in the open.
But they want to find out what these guys have been doing. They‘ve been under a great deal of pressure. And I think it‘s very simple under pressure to make mistakes.
That may be a part of the tact in this thing. They may have released these brothers thinking they could watch them and that they would have come up with something. We don‘t know what this evidence is. It‘s entirely possible it‘s something they did while they were out, after they were released from their former arrest.
COSBY: Are you surprised, Chris, I mean, none of these guys really seems like the brightest cog. I mean, they‘ve obviously had the father, Joran‘s father, who can give some good guidance, at least to him. They certainly are lawyered up at this point.
But initially, authorities did not get them to crack, if, indeed, they are involved. Do you believe, if this happened in the U.S., things would have been absolutely different?
WHITCOMB: It would have been absolutely different, Rita. There‘s no question about that. And I don‘t mean to really place any blame on the Aruban authorities.
It‘s a question of expertise. You have a small island state that has very little crime. They have almost no experience in this sort of matter. And I think, if they had called in the FBI—which is truly international.
Now, earlier on, they may have gotten the expertise they needed. In the United States, you have forensic or ability to deal with forensic evidence, but you have something that we haven‘t seen here, which is the ability to interview these people early, these brothers, and get information from them.
I think that was really—may have been the biggest problem in this investigation to date, is that they did not interview them appropriately.
COSBY: All right, Chris. Thank you very much.
And, everybody, stay tuned. We‘re going to be following this story, of course, any developments. Also, I‘m headed to Aruba. And I will be there live on Monday night. So we‘re going to bring you a lot of new details when we hit the ground and hit the ground running, everybody. Thank you.
And we‘re going to switch gears now. We have another big first in another missing person‘s case. This is the disappearance of Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend, Patrick McDermott, a case we‘ve also been following a lot.
In their first TV interview, two passengers who were on his fishing trip are coming forward with their own accounts of what happened. We‘re joined now by Bill, who is live in Burbank, and also Doug, who joins us on the phone.
Bill, did you ever see Patrick McDermott on the boat?
BILL, PASSENGER ON PATRICK MCDERMOTT‘S FISHING TRIP: Good evening, Rita. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here.
But the answer is, no. Throughout the evening, and the following morning, and when we finally got back to port, I did not see him on the boat at all.
COSBY: You didn‘t? And, Doug, I know you‘re on the phone with us.
Did you ever see him on the boat at all?
DOUG, PASSENGER ON PATRICK MCDERMOTT‘S FISHING TRIP: No, Rita, I did not.
COSBY: You did not?
Bill, I want to show some pictures. This is video, hopefully, inside the cabin.
BILL: Ok.
COSBY: I‘m surprised, as we‘re looking at some pictures, it‘s a very sort of a small boat, close quarters. Give us a sense of sort of how big it is. Would you have noticed, you know, everybody on board?
BILL: Well, I think so, Rita. The boat is basically an 85-foot, you know, fishing vessel. The cabins are basically divided into two separate sides. The area is close enough that you basically see everybody, you know, one time or another.
Again, you know, everybody signs in, comes into the galley. You get a chance to meet everyone. You see people, you know, on the boat before it takes off.
And then again, you know, once we reached the fishing grounds, you know, at around 6:00, 6:30 in the morning and started fishing, everybody congregates, you know, on the bough of the boat, because that‘s where, specifically, most of the fishing takes place.
COSBY: Now, I want to go to Doug on something important that I think you told one of our folks right before the show.
The route of the boat, you know, it goes to San Pedro, then it goes to San Clemente, and comes back. Somewhere on the way back, right, that‘s when they talk about the food. You pay for the food, whatever you‘ve eaten on the boat.
Did Patrick respond? You said that you had heard his name called out.
And what happened then?
DOUG: They called Number 2, Patrick. That was his number on the boat. They called it repeatedly. And they were searching for him on the boat, and they could not find him.
COSBY: So, just to be clear, you repeatedly heard his name called, Doug?
DOUG: Yes, it probably was five or six times at least.
COSBY: And is there any way that he could have been on the boat and just not have heard it?
DOUG: No, they actually searched the boat.
COSBY: Oh, they actually searched the boat? How extensively?
DOUG: Pretty extensively. They went down to the bunk area and all around the boat.
COSBY: Looking for this guy?
DOUG: Yes.
COSBY: And did they think there was something fishy at that point or did they think this was just a guy who hadn‘t paid for his food?
DOUG: I‘m guessing, yes, they just thought there was a gentleman that didn‘t pay for his food. You know, I don‘t know what they were thinking at that point.
COSBY: But they actually went around and actually looked on the boat for him, as well?
DOUG: Yes, down in the bunk areas and all around the boat.
COSBY: Oh, that‘s interesting. And what does that say to you, Doug?
DOUG: I don‘t know. I couldn‘t...
COSBY: Does that say to you that—I mean, do you think—is there any way that someone could have been hiding on the boat or been on the boat possibly without them knowing it at that point?
DOUG: Hiding on the boat, no. I don‘t think there‘s anywhere they could have hid on the boat. I think he was missing at that point. I mean...
COSBY: Yes, I think that...
DOUG: I think he was...
COSBY: I think that‘s really interesting. Bill, did you hear this call also?
BILL: Well, Rita, I have to tell you, I remember the thing that Doug just mentioned. I remember there was one specific number that they kept calling over and over again. I personally did not see them search for anyone. In addition to it, I didn‘t see them take any type of action which would indicate at any time that there might have been an issue of somebody overboard.
Again, this is a very professionally run boat. They‘re very careful. They set a night watch, you know, as you‘re moving back-and-forth. We did come in and get some gas. But we did not see anybody exit the boat. They‘re very careful about that.
So, again, you know, this could be something that, you know—as, again, we‘re all kind of in the mystery about this. But, again, I never saw him on the boat and I never heard of any type of noise whatsoever that would indicate that either in the evening, or during the day, or the way back in that anyone went overboard.
COSBY: So no splashing sounds, nothing unusual?
Doug, did you hear anything or see anything?
DOUG: No, I did not hear anything unusual. And I have to agree with John that this is a very professionally run boat. And they did sit us down in the galley area and give us a talk about what‘s going to be going on during the day.
And they did say that the front of the boat—they chain it off, actually, at night after the get bait. They put two chains on each sides and say there‘s no one allowed forward of that area from this point until we get to the fishing grounds the next morning.
COSBY: Well, both of you, thank you very much for some interesting perspective. And again, everyone, these two folks who were on the boat never saw him at any point in time, which I think is really interesting. And, Doug, hearing the name called out and no response.
Both of you, thank you so much for being with us.
BILL: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you.
And late developments in another mystery that we‘ve been following tonight. We‘re hearing new reports that missing Ohio model Julie Popovich may have partied more than first believed the night that she went missing. And reports also say that Julie was seen leaving the bar with a man she had been dancing with. The ID she had been using was later found at a nearby reservoir.
We‘re joined again by Ben Presson, who writes for the college student newspaper “The Lantern.”
Ben, what are you hearing? You‘ve been talking to a lot of her friends. This new report says she was dancing, even dancing on one of the tables. What are you hearing from friends who know her?
BEN PRESSON, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY STUDENT NEWSPAPER: Well, Rita, I think one of the biggest problems is some of the friends that I‘ve been speaking to, they kind of tell different accounts. I think one of them said that, “Yes, I saw her dancing on the bar. I saw her throwing darts.” Another friend says, “Ah, she wasn‘t really doing that much. She was kind of just hanging out, talking to friends,” and she really didn‘t notice anything out of the ordinary.
COSBY: So just kind of conflicting stories. What about the reservoir? Because authorities seemed very interested in searching that the last few days. What‘s the latest now there?
PRESSON: Well, the place where the ID was found near the reservoir, I wanted to make it clear that it‘s a very popular fishing spot. And it‘s very barren. It looks like the grass has been cut. And for about a fourth of a mile along the reservoir, there‘s very open place for anyone to run, sit down.
I also want to make another thing clear. It‘s not exactly a walk from Ohio State campus. My photographer and I actually took a drive there today. It took us almost 30 minutes to get there, and that was actually making pretty good time.
So it‘s not exactly like Julie would have just walked out of the bar and happened there. It would have taken some effort to get her there.
COSBY: And really quickly. Here‘s some new pictures from the vigil.
What do people think happened to her?
PRESSON: You know, I really don‘t know. I think that‘s the one thing that people haven‘t been speculating about, because, obviously, they wear the yellow ribbons, they keep so much hope that—and a lot of people I talked with at the vigil said, “I think that she‘s just going to walk in the door someday, and that she‘s perfectly fine, and that she‘s going to come home.”
So there‘s a lot of hope. And I really don‘t think people are speculating that anything‘s happened to her. I think they‘re holding out a lot of hope for her.
COSBY: Well, let‘s hope so, as we‘re looking at some pictures of her now. And thank you very much, Ben.
PRESSON: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you.
And still ahead tonight, this California housewife that we‘re about to show you admits that she stabbed her husband to death, but she told me she had nothing to do with it. Actually, she said she had everything to do with it, and she explains why she did it. Now you‘ll hear what her son has to say, LIVE & DIRECT.
And if you‘re cheating on your spouse, watch out. You could end up on national television with this guy. If you don‘t think it could happen to you, stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN POLK, STABBED HUSBAND TO DEATH: He was not stabbed 27 times. And the coroner testified at the grand jury that he was stabbed five or six times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that was Susan Polk, the California housewife who described to me the night that she stabbed her husband to death. Her son, Gabriel, is the prosecution‘s star witness against her. Another son, Eli Polk, says his mom acted in self-defense. He joins us now, along with her defense attorney, Dan Horowitz.
Eli, I want to start with you. How do you feel about your brother taking the stand against your mom?
ELI POLK, SUPPORTS MOTHER: Well, any brother would be, you know, upset over that. And, you know, all I can hope is that Gabe will tell the truth. You know, up to this point, there‘s been a lot of influence on his testimony. And I hope he does tell the truth.
COSBY: And, you know, I talked to your mom. And there does seem to be some sort of conflicting accounts as to what Gabriel saw or didn‘t see. I want to show a little bit—or actually just play a clip of what your mom told me about Gabriel, what he witnessed that night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. POLK: I‘m actually skeptical that he found my husband‘s body. There‘s a couple of stories out there. I‘ve heard differently. I don‘t believe that did he see my husband‘s body.
He called 911. I would have called 911 myself. I was preparing myself to do it and to face the inevitable. And he did it. And then I—there I was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Eli, do you believe that your brother is being manipulated and sort of forced to say different sorts—he hasn‘t seen your mom, she was telling me, in about three years.
E. POLK: That‘s a very good question, ma‘am. I trust my little brother completely, but when people have involved themselves in the case and undermined the trust that family members have, it‘s—you know, I wouldn‘t be surprised.
COSBY: You know, your mom also painted a very sort of bleak picture in the house, talked about just the extent of domestic violence that she endured. I want to play a little clip and then have you react to it, if you could, Eli. Here‘s what your mom had to say about what was happening inside that home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. POLK: Sometimes I‘d get hit in the face. Sometimes I‘d have black eyes. Sometimes I‘d have bruises. But mostly, he would just, just push me around and chase me around the house. And I‘d run away.
And if he had anything in his hands, he‘d throw it in my face, or throw furniture, or, you know, silverware.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Eli, it sounds like a really tough place to live. How difficult was it in the home? What was the climate that you saw?
E. POLK: Well, it was exactly that. And, you know, people need to understand that you have all of these, you know, mental and the physical abuse—it was continuous. And...
COSBY: Do you believe that your mother had to kill your father to protect herself?
E. POLK: Yes. She defended herself to survive.
COSBY: You do believe that, 100 percent?
E. POLK: Yes, ma‘am.
COSBY: Dan, you know, she talked to me, Susan, and I asked her what some of the reports are saying, 27 stab wounds. And I asked her, “How could that be self-defense?” She pointed out that the coroner‘s report is five or six stab wounds.
Which one is it? And do you think you can do a good case for self-defense?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Rita, it is just five or six. Now, the prosecutor is a fine man. And I‘m sure he did not put that information out. It might have come out early and by mistake in the investigation.
What it is, is there‘s numerous injuries that they both had on them. I mean, believe me, Susan was also injured, but, fortunately for her, and very tragically for Felix Polk, he died.
Nobody, nobody is glad at what happened to him. And, believe me, these injuries, the ones that were the five or six, were not major, deep, heavy stabbings. It was almost as if he could have walked away and gone to the hospital, and they both could have said, “We will never see each other again.”
And instead, this great tragedy happened. So we‘re grateful that she survived and we‘ve very, very sad, and she is very sad, that he didn‘t.
COSBY: And Eli, if your mom‘s watching tonight, I know she told me that she watches this show from time to time, what would you want to say to her?
E. POLK: I love her so much. I can‘t—she‘s a wonderful person. And you know, and she was a perfect mother. And my brothers will testify to that.
COSBY: All right. Well, we wish you both a lot of luck. Thank you, both, and keep us posted on how the case is going. I know it‘s heartbreaking for both of you. Thank you very much.
E. POLK: Thank you.
COSBY: Thanks. And a peak at the prosecution‘s side of the case.
Joining me now is former Atlanta district attorney Ash Joshi.
Ash, do you think that the self-defense argument will work?
ASH JOSHI, FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I think it‘s going to be
difficult without some actual evidence that she defended herself, other
than what she‘s saying. Some type of physical evidence, some broken
objects, some cuts, damage to her body, some type of injuries that she says
· that she suffered, or should have suffered, if this was self-defense.
COSBY: One of the things, though, Ash, that we just heard from Dan, he said that she was injured that night, too. Doesn‘t that help her case?
And what she told me is that she was physically laying on the floor. He had a knife after her. She grabbed it and then responded. If they can bring a good forensic expert to show the wounds came from that direction, isn‘t that effective?
JOSHI: It is effective. But I will tell you, it is difficult for forensic experts, even the very best, to actually determine the points or the angles. Whether she‘s under him or on top of him would look very similar when a person does the autopsy.
COSBY: And real quickly, Ash, you know, the prosecution‘s—one of the star witnesses is this other son, Gabriel, who saw his father—there‘s been conflicting stories that he found him or not, but apparently will testify against the mother.
When that mother looks at him in the eye, it‘s been three years, do you think it‘s going to backfire, maybe, for the prosecution?
JOSHI: I think it will be very difficult for him to testify against his mother, when she‘s actually there and potentially cross-examining him. And I think that‘s what she‘s expecting and why she wants to cross-examine her son.
COSBY: It‘s going to be interesting to watch, Ash. Thank you for your perspectives, as always.
JOSHI: Thank you.
COSBY: Thank you.
And still ahead, you remember how Charlie‘s Angels busted the bad guys? Well, cheaters, look out. Parco‘s Angels are coming after you. And if you get caught, you‘re going to be starring in your own very embarrassing reality show. He‘s here to tell you how. He‘s coming up next with his angels. That‘s LIVE & DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, angels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALES: Good morning, Charlie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meet Roger Corwin. He‘s planning to steal a new software that can trace a voice signal anywhere in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, those were Hollywood‘s version of “Charlie‘s Angels.” But now, there‘s the real deal. And forget about Charlie. Here comes Vinny. Private investigator Vinny Parco is the star of Court TV‘s new reality docu-drama, “Parco P.I.”
And he joins me here with two of his real-life angels, two neat ladies that we‘ve had the pleasure of talking to, Cheryl and Arabella.
First off, how fun are you having? Is this just amazing for you?
ARABELLA, “PARCO P.I.”: This has been the funnest, I think, for me.
CHERYL, “PARCO, P.I.”: It‘s absolutely wonderful.
COSBY: You go undercover and you sort of play different roles, catching guys, mostly, cheating on their wives, right?
CHERYL: Pretty much.
VINNY PARCO, “PARCO, P.I.”: Not only cheating, but also, you know, we have embezzlers. We have people that have taken secrets from corporations, counterfeits. We have a variation of different types of cases.
COSBY: What‘s the most fun or unusual case you‘ve been involved in?
PARCO: Oh, there‘s so many, but the one with the bordello is the one...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Yes, tell us about that. You actually, what, you got somebody cheating on his wife in a bordello?
PARCO: Right. And we have one of our girls go undercover as an escort. She got a job in the place.
COSBY: Now, where have you gone undercover?
ARABELLA: Oh, my gosh, various places. Actually, in a strip club, I dressed up like a dyke.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
ARABELLA: ... and I almost got caught, because the bouncer came by and he brushed up against the camera, the backpack. And he said—he thought I was carrying a piece, a weapon.
COSBY: What, a weapon...
(CROSSTALK)
ARABELLA: He said, “Is that a weapon or is that a camera?” So I kept nudging him, like, who is this guy? Tell him to leave me alone. I‘m trying to relax, you know? And finally, I mean, this was a six-foot guy, and I was a little shorty here.
COSBY: Yes, but you were this close to getting caught, huh?
ARABELLA: I was this close to getting caught.
COSBY: What about you Cheryl, too? What are some unusual experiences? You‘ve been working with Vinny, what, about a year, you said?
CHERYL: About a year, right. And there‘s a lot of cases of the men cheating.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: What are some of the craziest pieces?
CHERYL: Going undercover into a lot of restaurants. We do a lot of fine dining, a lot of fine rooming in various places in Manhattan. And basically, we, you know, we surveil these people. We find out what‘s going on, and we get the cases solved for Vinny.
COSBY: Any funny scenarios, too, that you‘ve experienced?
CHERYL: There‘s so many of them. I mean, it‘s just—you know, it‘s funny when you‘re trailing people, because they don‘t know that you‘re behind them. They don‘t know what you‘re up to. And they are going about their own business.
And here you are behind them trying to keep up with them, sometimes various road chases, sometimes them stopping at several stop signs, you know, getting out, doing their own things. It‘s just—it‘s always an adventure. That‘s the best part of this job. It‘s always an adventure every single time.
COSBY: And it looks like you guys both love it, too, all three of you.
CHERYL: You bet.
(CROSSTALK)
PARCO: We have a blast. Doing this show is a blast. I‘ve never expected in my whole life to actually have, you know, a TV series. And to have—and beside Arabella and Cheryl, we have eight other girls on the show.
COSBY: So you‘re a busy guy? In fact, I want to show some clips, because you use some unusual surveillance techniques.
PARCO: Oh, yes.
COSBY: Let me show a little clip from the show on that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARCO (voice-over): Generally, at least one investigator is wearing a wire or a hidden video camera so we can have evidence recorded for either a court proceeding or a confrontation with the target. We hide the camera in a broach, sort of suave. The wire will go through the clothes. And the recorder would be either in a fanny pack, a pocketbook, or maybe a knapsack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Some creative places. Really quickly, does everybody fall for these beautiful women every time?
PARCO: They do.
COSBY: They‘re suckers out there, huh?
PARCO: I would have to say it. I mean, men are suckers.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: Thank you very much. Good luck on your show. Can‘t wait to watch it. Thanks, guys.
And still ahead, there‘s a lot more on the big story of the day, the Kalpoe brothers back behind bars. Maybe some surveillance tricks in their case. All in the Natalee Holloway investigation. That‘s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And coming up next week, we‘re going to be coming to you LIVE
& DIRECT from Aruba. We‘re going to be going to the island of Aruba, as
Joran Van Der Sloot and now the Kalpoe brothers sit in jail after they were
re-arrested again today.
Is there finally enough evidence to keep them behind bars, or will they get out again? We‘re going to take you to some of the key sites on the island. You‘ll see the places that could hold the most clues, like you‘ve never seen them before. And indeed, we will have the latest on the Holloway case all next week, LIVE & DIRECT.
And that does it for me, everybody. I‘m Rita Cosby. Have a terrific weekend, everybody.
And coming up next—don‘t touch that dial—Lisa Daniels is in for Joe Scarborough. And I‘ll see you on Monday from Aruba.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
END
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