updated 10/17/2005 10:05:44 AM ET 2005-10-17T14:05:44

Guests: Dave Holloway, Gerold Dompig, Jamie Skeeters, George Malim, Debbie Boyd, Danny Jenkins, Thomas Wilks, Terry Wright, James Edstrom, Jim Nolan, Ken Sunshine, Michelle Duggar, Jim Bob Duggar, Joshua Duggar, Josiah Duggar

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Tonight, for the first time, Natalee Holloway‘s father confronts Aruban police, demanding answers on what really happened to his daughter.

And the prime suspect in the death of college student Taylor Behl is breaking his silence and talking to police.  Is he explaining what happened the day that she vanished?

And the man whose lover is now accused of trying to kill her friend and steal her unborn baby is talking to us tonight in a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive.  Did he see this shocking crime coming?

But we begin tonight with new information coming to us in the Natalee Holloway investigation, as the case appears to be picking up some major steam.  For the very first time tonight, we bring together two key figures in the search for the 18-year-old in their first live television interview together.

Joining me now tonight from Aruba is the island‘s deputy chief, Gerold Dompig, and also live is Natalee‘s father, Dave.  And also with us is Jamie Skeeters.  He‘s the man whose interview with suspect Deepak Kalpoe could blow the entire investigation wide open.

Look at what Deepak told him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER:  I‘m sure she had sex with all of you.

DEEPAK KALPOE, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE:  She did. 

You‘d be surprised how simple it was.

To tell you quite frankly, dressed like a slut, talked like one, would go in a car with three strange guys, and her mother claiming her to be the goody two-shoes—enough of the BS already!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And let me bring in Dave Holloway right away.  Dave, you know, when you hear those comments, we know that they‘re verifying the tapes, are you praying this is going to be the big break, Dave?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FATHER:  Well, I‘m hopeful the police will be able to do something with it, Rita.  You know, I spoke with Jamie several days ago, and he told me, basically, the full content of the tape.  And I‘m hopeful that Gerold and his people will be able to analyze it and make a decision if it‘s valid.

COSBY:  Let me bring in the chief.  Chief, walk us through the stages that you need to do right now to verify the tape.  How long is it going to take?

GEROLD DOMPIG, ARUBAN DEPUTY POLICE CHIEF:  Well, basically, I see—

I personally see three steps.  The first step will be try to get the tapes as soon as possible so that we can take a look at them.  That‘s one.

The second thing would be that once we are satisfied with what we see and hear, trying to get the tapes verified for their authenticity.  And maybe the FBI can assist us with that.  Maybe we have to send them to Holland.  Maybe both.  That‘s going to be the second step.

The third step would be that if—once these tapes have proven to be authentic, which is very important for the court case, we definitely will move ahead.  And I assure you that this will be a complete turnaround in the case.  And as I said earlier in other interviews, if these guys are guilty, I want them behind bars.

COSBY:  Is it possible, Chief, that if these tapes can be authentic, that we could even see search warrants, maybe an arrest in a few weeks, if they‘re authentic?

DOMPIG:  Absolutely.  I talked to the prosecutor today, as a matter of fact, and we discussed that possibility, and she doesn‘t exclude it.  She also told me that, of course, keep in mind that we will have to go to a judge again, but I‘m sure that if we can determine that the tapes are authentic, then we have a strong case to make before a judge to get new warrants for searches and eventually rearrests.

COSBY:  Let me show another little clip of that conversation that Jamie Skeeters had with Deepak Kalpoe, where Deepak basically says, I have no friends, sort of alluding to some other things.  Let‘s take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SKEETERS:  Sometimes your closest friends, if they‘re worried, and this thing is that big, they‘ll burn you.

KALPOE:  I don‘t have any close friends anymore.  They‘re all gone.

SKEETERS:  Really?  Because of this?

KALPOE:  Everything is empty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Dave, are you hoping, if the squeeze is on, if maybe they aren‘t such as good friends as Deepak‘s claiming they are, maybe one will crack?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I‘m hopeful that if the tape is authentic and the authorities in Aruba feel like they have something, maybe they‘ll get him back behind bars.  As you recall, we had all three behind bars prior to the hurricane we had.  And then all of a sudden, you know, our hopes were dashed when they were all let loose.  So maybe we‘ll get some better hopes now.

COSBY:  Now, Dave, if you‘re confronted with this, if Deepak Kalpoe maybe has some information, you have a big reward out there, would you or someone else in the family be willing to pay him money to tell what he knows, if he can say where Natalee is, if he has that information?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, that would be something we‘d have to discuss with Beth.  And I think that she‘s agreeable that if there‘s some information out there that can show where Natalee‘s whereabouts are, then the reward is payable.

COSBY:  Let me go to the chief because I want to bring also both of you to be able to ask questions.  Chief, did any of these men—if we can show the picture of the three of them—this is Joran and both Kalpoe brothers.  Did any of these three ever admit to having sex with Natalee to authorities at any point, Chief?

DOMPIG:  No, they did not.  They keep denying it, and they only went so far as to say that they fondled sexually.  At least, Joran did that, and the others denied everything.

COSBY:  Now, did Joran—we‘ve heard from the family, Chief, that—you know, that Joran was claiming in some statement that she was going in and out of consciousness.  Have you seen that anywhere?

DOMPIG:  Yes.  That‘s definitely in the statements, and that‘s why we were kind of disappointed when the judge didn‘t accept that because that‘s basically a felony in Aruba.  We think that what happened was that the judge just didn‘t buy it the way—because Joran went back and forth with his statements, and he withdrew two statements which he had already given to us.  So basically, none of his statements were really trustworthy.

COSBY:  But what you‘re saying, Chief, is that he did say that, at some point, she was in and out of consciousness.  You‘re saying that‘s a felony in Aruba.  where did he say that happened, in the back of the car?

DOMPIG:  In the back of the car.  He mentioned a couple of times that she passed out a couple of times.  Those were his words.  But in a way that someone that‘s drunk, that‘s kind of like not really aware of what‘s happening.  And that was to us very interesting and very important because we thought, as investigators, that we had at least that.  But again, what we are faced with—we‘re faced with, I think that Dave will also have that experience, that it was very disappointing that at a certain point in time, the judge didn‘t buy it.

COSBY:  Dave, go ahead.  Is there a question you want to ask the chief?  And I want to bring Jamie in in a second.  But Dave, first, is there a question for the chief you have?

HOLLOWAY:  No, not at this moment.  I just want to thank Gerold for being forward (ph) with all of his comments and look forward to meeting him.  It sounds like to me that he‘s got some good words, and then we put some action with it, maybe we‘ll get some results.  And I appreciate him for coming on and getting this going in the right direction.

COSBY:  Let me bring Jamie in because there is an inconsistency that I‘ve heard, and I‘m sure all of you are wondering this.  Jamie, did Deepak Kalpoe say to you at any point when you met with him, whether it‘s on tape or not, that he believed Joran killed Natalee?

SKEETERS:  Yes.

COSBY:  He did?  Tell me how.

SKEETERS:  I talked to him—part of it is on the tape, but the main conversation I had with him, I asked him point blank, Did you kill Natalee?  He said, No.  I said, Did Satish kill Natalee.  He said, No.  And I said, Did Joran kill Natalee?  He goes, Well, it wasn‘t me, it wasn‘t my brother.  So what do you think?  And he nodded his head “Yes” and raised—shrugged his shoulders.  And that‘s when I asked if he would do a polygraph.

COSBY:  And he refused to take that polygraph, right, Jamie?

SKEETERS:  Well, no, he didn‘t.  He said that he would take a polygraph.  He didn‘t think his attorney wanted him to, but he said, I will do a polygraph with you, talking, like, the following day or two from that conversation.

COSBY:  But then it never happened, right?

SKEETERS:  He was arrested.

COSBY:  That‘s what I thought because the timing didn‘t work.  But you‘re telling me, Jamie, again, he looked at you and said, Take a guess who did, not as a question of maybe, but strongly saying that Joran did.

SKEETERS:  Yes.  He didn‘t say, Take a guess.  He goes, you know, It wasn‘t me or my brother, but who does that leave?  And I said, Joran.  He goes, Yes, and then shrugged his shoulders.

COSBY:  He said yes?

SKEETERS:  Yes.

COSBY:  Dave, what do you make of this, when you hear this?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, you know, I just couldn‘t really comment at this time.  You know, I know they‘re all three involved.  You know, we‘ve heard statements from Joran, you know, through the press or leaks or whatever, that he pointed the finger at Deepak.  So you really don‘t know.

COSBY:  Let me bring in the chief.  Chief, what are you going to do with this, if, indeed, he said this?  And Jamie, is this on tape in some point, or what form is this in, Jamie?

SKEETERS:  No.  The statement made that was made there was made before the taping began.  But there is something on the tape that I just saw myself the other day, where I asked him if he killed her, and he says, I didn‘t.  And I said, Van Der Sloot, and he says, Yes.

COSBY:  Oh, and that‘s on tape?

SKEETERS:  That‘s on tape.

COSBY:  Chief, if that‘s on tape, what do you have now?

DOMPIG:  Well, that‘s the reason why because Jamie told me about that already in a phone conversation.  And that‘s why I told Jamie, I said, Jamie, I really need your help in this.  We need to have the tapes in Aruba as soon as possible.

And to Dave, I want to stress, Dave, hang in there with us.  Believe me, we‘re going to stick with it, and anything, anything—I also want to thank him for every—all the e-mails he sent to us because we really look at all the tips and the leads he sends to us on, basically, a daily basis.  So he really works with us.

COSBY:  Let me show a comment.  This is Deepak when he—part of another part of the interview, Jamie, that you did.  You guys did a heck of a great job.  Let me show another comment.  This is when you ask, Do you know where the body is?  Here‘s what Deepak had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KALPOE:  If I knew where the body is, I would tell them a long time ago.  Let them start a trial and get this over with.  I don‘t care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Dave, if you can be in that questioning room—and I believe that the chief can verify these tapes.  I believe he‘s going to call these guys in for questioning, maybe even arrest them.  Dave, if you‘re in that room, what do you want to ask Deepak, if you could be there with the chief?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I‘d just like to ask him to tell the truth and to let us have closure in this case.  Whatever he knows, I would like for him to tell the truth and, you know, stop all of this pointing the fingers at someone else or whatever.  Tell what you know, and let‘s get on.

COSBY:  What‘s the most troubling thing...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Dave, what‘s the most troubling thing tonight?  What is—you know, you hear these questions.

HOLLOWAY:  Well, it‘s just a pack of lies.  You know, that‘s all we‘ve heard all along is pointing the fingers and, you know, just outright lying.  And I think Deepak may have come to his end with Jamie interviewing him, and he wanted to get it over with.  And it sounds like to me he wants to talk and wants to tell the truth, hopefully.

COSBY:  Do you think you‘re going to be able to have leverage over him, Chief?  Do you think—if indeed—look, what Jamie just said I think is a bombshell, that if, indeed, it‘s on the tape saying, Joran, yes, he‘s the one who killed her—you got it on tape.  What are you going to be able to do with Deepak now, Chief?

DOMPIG:  Well, again, I agree with Dave.  I also feel that, again, if these tapes are what they sound like, I‘m sure that these boys are now feeling the urge to talk.  And look at the interview that Joran gave in Holland, as well.  He didn‘t do such an interview in Aruba.  So finally, these boys start talking.  And I think that maybe time is against them now, and they will—they are human beings still.  I think that it starts haunting them, and they will finally start talking.

COSBY:  Dave, I got two quick questions for you.  First, there‘s some buzz I‘ve been hearing in the law enforcement community.  You may have been gotten a call from someone saying that they were Natalee or acting like they were Natalee?  Is there anything that law enforcement‘s looking into?

HOLLOWAY:  That was a phone call that we have not verified yet.  But you know, I—it‘s just like this.  You know, you don‘t want to get your hopes up high because you only end up getting them dashed.  but there was a phone call made—I think it was a wrong number, and someone hung up because they really didn‘t say anything.  And I‘m just going to leave it at that.

COSBY:  Well, ,of course, we‘re all praying that she‘s alive,  and if it‘s a prank, that that‘s terrible.  What would you want to say real quick to the chief?  I know you‘re heading down there, Dave.

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I just want to say to the chief and to the other people of Aruba that we still have this Web site open, helpfindnatalee@comcast.net.  It‘s an e-mail site.  And I‘ve been getting quite a few tips and a lot of leads that I‘ve been forwarding and providing to the police.  And you know, I just hope that that continue.  And hopefully, one of these days, we will get to the bottom of this case.

COSBY:  And you‘re going to be meeting with the chief, I would assume, next week, at some point, right, Dave?

HOLLOWAY:  Yes, I hope to.

COSBY:  Well, I hope you do, too.  And thank you so much, Dave.  Jamie Skeeters, great job.  And also, Chief, thank you very much.  We‘ll probably be talking with you very soon.  Thank you for being with us.

And coming up tonight, everybody, we‘ve got some breaking news on the manhunt for a fugitive suspected of shooting a cop.  You‘ll never believe how he was found and who he was found with.  And that‘s not be all that‘s coming up tonight, everybody.  Take a look.

Still ahead: A woman accused of beating her friend and trying to cut out her unborn child is now behind bars.  And tonight, we‘re going to ask her boyfriend what could have been her motive for such a horrible crime.

And take a look at these pictures.  Do they hold the clue to finding a missing woman who was last seen leaving a casino with this man?  We have new leads in the case tonight.

And how far is too far for paparazzi photographers?  We‘ll talk to the man who represents some of Hollywood‘s biggest stars, like Ben and Leo.  That‘s coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Dramatic developments in the case of Christie Wilson, a woman who disappeared from a California casino last week.  Tonight, cops are telling us that they have recovered a hair sample at the home of a person of interest, and that hair may be Christie‘s.  This is the same person of interest seen right here in this surveillance video walking with Christie in the casino parking lot in the wee hours of the morning that night of her disappearance.

Joining me now is Lieutenant George Malim.  He‘s with the Placer County sheriff‘s Department in Sacramento, California.  And with us on the phone is Christie‘s parents, Pat and Debbie Boyd.

Lieutenant, let me start with you.  This hair sample—do we know if it belongs to Christie and it‘s in this guy‘s home?

LT. GEORGE MALIM, PLACER COUNTY, CA, SHERIFF‘S DEPT.:  Well, it wasn‘t found in her home, it was found in his vehicle when we did the search on it and processed it.  The test that was done on it is just a very preliminary test, basically to see if the hair can be excluded as belonging to Christine.

COSBY:  Can it be excluded?

MALIM:  No, it cannot be.  So at this point, we‘re sending it for further testing and DNA testing.

COSBY:  When will you know for sure?  How long does that take?

MALIM:  That could take up to a couple of weeks.  The Department of Justice is really working with us and put this as a real high priority, so we actually got the results back on the preliminary quite quickly.

COSBY:  Yes, I bet.  I understand you found some other sort of items of interest also.  What kind of items?  I know you can‘t tell me specifics, but what type of items?

MALIM:  They‘re items belonging to our person of interest that we are definitely looking at, and that was during the search warrant last night at his home.

COSBY:  Black eye—I understand this guy has a black eye.  Got to look suspicious!

MALIM:  Oh, obviously, we‘re looking at it.  When he was questioned about it during an initial questioning period, he would not tell us what occurred or how he got the black eye.  So right now, we‘re going through other channels to try to find out exactly when he appeared with that black eye.

COSBY:  Yes, you bet.  He hasn‘t told you why?

MALIM:  Why he had the black eye?

COSBY:  Yes, and he gave some excuse, or what was the reason?

MALIM:  He wouldn‘t tell us.

COSBY:  Oh, he wouldn‘t tell us?  All right, let me—Lieutenant, stay with me.   I want to bring in Debbie, if I could, the mom.  Debbie, it‘s got to be troubling to hear all this information.  Here‘s this guy (INAUDIBLE) from lieutenant, the black eye—suddenly has a black eye, no explanation, hair sample on the surface looks like it could belong to your daughter, seen walking out—it‘s got to be troubling.

DEBBIE BOYD, MOTHER OF MISSING WOMAN:  Troubling, but actually, you know, as you sit and you wait and you wait and you wait, and you‘re looking for answers, it‘s good to know that we‘re making some progress here and possibly closer to trying to understand some of the answers to this whole puzzle.

COSBY:  No, you‘re right.  At least, if it can pinpoint sort of what happened or who may have some information.  Would your daughter leave a casino with this guy?  Because, you know, it‘s a strange man.  Because what I‘m hearing is she just met him that night, correct?

BOYD:  From what I understand, yes.  Considering and what I saw when the surveillance tape was released yesterday to all of us, just looking at her walking out, certainly, he doesn‘t fit the character type of anyone that Christie would ever be interested in dating or, you know, just going out with whatsoever.  So it‘s very suspicious to me as her mother.

COSBY:  You know, and Debbie, as we‘re looking again that this surveillance video—and of course, anybody, if you have any clues out here, as you‘re looking at this, please call the sheriff‘s department.  Please report if you know anything or saw anything that night.

If this guy, this 53-year-old guy—again, we‘re not releasing his name, Debbie, who‘s seen walking out here with your daughter with that white shirt on—if he‘s watching tonight, what would you want to say to him?

BOYD:  You‘re suspicious.  You sure look suspicious to me as a mom.  I‘m not an investigator, but you look at all the—you know, just all the things that you‘re not coming—you know, you‘re not willing to talk about, your black eye, all the other stuff—you know, why don‘t you just come clean and at least talk about, you know, where you were, how you got your black eye?  The more you don‘t talk, the more suspicious you look, I‘m sure, to the police department, as well as me, as a parent.  And you know, it‘s not OK to be putting a family through kind of turmoil.

COSBY:  You bet.  Well, we‘re putting up a picture of your beautiful daughter here.  And of course...

BOYD:  Thank you very much.

COSBY:  ... if anybody else has any leads—we will do what we can, Debbie.  And Lieutenant, thank you.  I hope you get some answers soon.  Certainly sounds very fishy with this guy with the black eye.

Well, now to the case of another missing woman, this one in Georgia.  And tonight, we‘re learning the key to this case might be cell phone records.  Police are telling us that they‘re now looking into a cell phone call—series of calls made by Sueann Ray and her estranged husband around the time that she went missing on August 26.  And tonight, we‘ll hear about an eerie e-mail that she sent to her own aunt just days before Sueann disappeared.

Joining me now live is Sueann Ray‘s father, Danny Jenkins.  You know, Danny, what have you heard about these cell phone calls?

DANNY JENKINS, MISSING WOMAN‘S FATHER:  Well, I heard about it last night, and it was something new to me.  But then again, they don‘t tell me a whole lot.

COSBY:  They don‘t—is your sense that they‘re providing a valuable clue, Danny, that there‘s something in there?

JENKINS:  I think it speaks volumes.  It‘s like the little puppy.  I think—I think they‘re about to add it all up and put it together.  I think this thing‘s going to be over pretty quickly.

COSBY:  Yes, I hope so.  It sounds like they‘re honing in, of course, you know, on her estranged husband.  Is that where you‘re looking to?  Because, what, he—get—walk me through.  He shows up at the school to pick up the daughter that day.  He normally doesn‘t pick up the daughter, right?

JENKINS:  Well, it wasn‘t his time to get the daughter.  He went by and got Charity, and he calls my daughter and says, Do you mind if I pick Charity up?  And she says, Well, I just heard her in the car.  You‘ve already got her.  Then he took her to McDonald‘s.  And this is coming from my granddaughter, so—took her to McDonald‘s and took her straight to his mother‘s house, which, you know, even by her own admission, rarely, if never, has that happened on a Friday.

COSBY:  And then I was hearing—I think your other daughter was telling us that it‘s her understanding they got in an argument, needless to say, about this right?

JENKINS:  Well, Sueann‘s boss heard them get into an argument right around 3:00 o‘clock, when he picked her up.  And then Quinton has already told Sandy that they had an argument at his shop.

COSBY:  So they get in an argument.  What kind of a history did they have?  Did they have sort of a turbulent, maybe even violent relationship at times?

JENKINS:  Well, I think in the last two months—I think in the last two months, he sort of—you know, hey, if it‘s yelling, it quacks, it may be a duck, so—in my opinion, he needs to give me my daughter back.  In my opinion, he needs to give me my daughter back.

COSBY:  You believe he‘s the clue.  Do you believe police are going to arrest him soon?

JENKINS:  I don‘t know that.  I know if that he did something with my daughter, they will arrest him.  They will find—Dan King will find what happened—he will find out what happened to my daughter, and he will arrest him.  And it‘ll be history.

COSBY:  Yes, you bet.  And of course, that‘s one of the authorities.  Let me really quickly show—because this is a strange thing, you know, in your family.  I know your sister also lost, what, her daughter, 10 years to the day.  And a few days before, you know, Sueann goes missing, she sends this e-mail, which was very strange, sends it to her aunt.  She says, “I‘m sure that I can help.  I will do anything I can.  I picture this happening in my head, and it doesn‘t make sense.  Something is definitely wrong.  We will bring her home one way or another.”  She‘s, you know, referring, of course, you know, to her cousin, saying, I‘m so sorry that she was missing.

Is it strange?  It‘s got to be an eerie coincidence.  She sends this note about another missing relative 10 years ago days before Sueann disappears.

JENKINS:  I would say the chances of two people—two families—one family losing two people like this is one in a zillion, probably.

COSBY:  Yes, it‘s heartbreaking.  And look, I hope, sir, that you get some answers soon on your beautiful daughter.  And we‘ll do whatever we can to help, sir.  Thank you very much.

JENKINS:  I just want...

COSBY:  Go ahead.

JENKINS:  ... I just want whoever is involved in this, and I think we all know who‘s involved, if you got nothing to hide, come with me, and we‘ll both take a polygraph.  You know, if we got nothing to hide, you know, Sandy‘ll take one, I‘ll take one, and the rest of your family take one.  I want my daughter back.

COSBY:  You bet.  Well, I hope whoever is responsible is listening tonight, sir.  And our prayers are with you.  Thank you very much.  I hope you get some answers soon, Danny.  Thank you.

And coming up: Wait until you hear how authorities caught a suspected cop shooter, and even more bizarre, who they found with him.

Are the paparazzi out of control?  I‘m going to ask one of Hollywood‘s hottest celebrity reps if his clients deserve having photographers hot on their tail.  It‘s all ahead.  Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  A stunning turn of events tonight in the shocking case of a pregnant woman apparently attacked for her own fetus. 

The victim, Valerie Oskin, is now identifying her neighbor, Peggy Jo Conner, as the woman who attacked her viciously.  Valerie is recovering thanks to a young man who stumbled upon the crime scene in Pennsylvania.  This is how the young man‘s aunt described the gruesome events that he saw. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS SILVIS, AUNT OF BOY WHO STOPPED ATTACK:  He could see the woman‘s foot, and then he saw a little bit of blood.  I guess he just pulled up.  And she just said, “Everything‘s fine here.  Everything‘s fine.  We‘re just out looking for deer.”

(END VIDEO CLIP)  

COSBY:  And joining us now on the phone in an exclusive interview is Thomas Wilks.  He‘s the boyfriend of the woman accused of this terrible crime, Peggy Jo Conner. 

Mr. Wilks, how long did you know Peggy Jo?  How long did the two of you know each other? 

THOMAS WILKS, BOYFRIEND OF PEGGY JO CONNER:  Eighteen months. 

COSBY:  Eighteen months.  Did you ever imagine in—you know, just ever imagine she would have done such a horrible thing? 

WILKS:  No, ma‘am. 

COSBY:  No idea?  Did she ever have any history of violence or anything? 

WILKS:  No, ma‘am.  She don‘t even have a criminal background, period. 

COSBY:  Never violent?  Never...

WILKS:  Nope. 

COSBY:  What do you think drove her to do this, Thomas? 

WILKS:  Ma‘am? 

COSBY:  What do you think drove her?  What do you think her motive was? 

WILKS:  I don‘t know, ma‘am.  I don‘t know. 

COSBY:  What was your relationship, you know, with Peggy Jo like?  Did you believe—you believed she was pregnant, right?  That‘s what she told you and why? 

WILKS:  Yes, ma‘am. 

COSBY:  Now, why did you believe that?  What did she tell you?

WILKS:  She showed me sonograms.  I‘ve watched her stomach grow.  It was kicking.  You could feel movement in her stomach. 

COSBY:  And you believed that she was pregnant? 

WILKS:  Yes, ma‘am. 

COSBY:  You know, last night, we had the district attorney on in this case.  And I asked him about this.  Let me show what he had to say.  And then I‘m going to have you respond, Thomas. 

Here‘s the district attorney first. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The tests at the hospital this afternoon indicated she was not pregnant.  There was, in fact, a sonogram found in her trailer.  However, we‘ve established that that was not a baby that belonged to her. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Now, Thomas, when you hear that—I‘m sure you‘ve heard that, that this was all a ruse.  How stunned are you that she was able to fool you? 

WILKS:  I‘m devastated about it, ma‘am.  I don‘t know how to think or react. 

COSBY:  How do you think she came up with this idea to do this horrible crime to someone that she knew?  Where did she come up with this idea? 

WILKS:  I don‘t have any idea, ma‘am. 

COSBY:  Did you have any idea that she was planning anything? 

WILKS:  No, ma‘am. 

COSBY:  Anything suspicious? 

WILKS:  The morning it was supposed to happen, she—we got up like we do every morning with the kids.  She made coffee, packed my lunch, and kissed me good-bye, and told me she loved me, and she‘ll see me in a little while. 

COSBY:  You know, she faces some very serious charges.  I want to show this—and, again, this is the woman you knew for 18 months—attempted homicide, aggravated assault, aggravated assault of an unborn child. 

She beat this friend of hers with a baseball bat, tried to cut out the baby with a razor blade.  This is a horrible crime.  Thomas, what do you think should happen to her? 

WILKS:  Ma‘am, I don‘t know.  I don‘t think she needs to go to prison.  I think she needs to get psychiatral help.  I think she needs to go to the mental hospital. 

COSBY:  When you see her, what are you going to say to her?  I‘m sure you‘ll see her at some point.  What are the things you‘re going to tell her? 

WILKS:  I need to know what, you know, what happened here, why she would do something like this. 

COSBY:  I bet you‘re just stunned, as we all are.  And, Thomas, I thank you for being on the phone with us.  I‘m sure it is just absolutely stunning and absolutely horrible.  Thank you very much. 

And now to a dramatic end to a story that we have been bringing you all this week right here on the show.  Manhunt suspect Jeffery Forbes has been on the run after allegedly shooting a deputy in Orlando, Florida, on Monday.  And just two nights ago, right here on LIVE & DIRECT, the fugitive‘s family made this dramatic plea. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFFERY FORBES, SR., FATHER OF MANHUNT SUSPECT:  I love my son.  And I don‘t believe he did it.  But I want him to turn himself in. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, tonight, manhunt suspect Jeffery Forbes is under arrest.  Police found him in a Georgia motel early this morning along with this woman—you can see her right here—accused of helping him. 

Joining me now live is Captain Terry Wright of the Glynn County, Georgia, police department. 

Captain, how did you guys know to swarm in on him at that hotel in Georgia? 

CAPT. TERRY WRIGHT, GLYNN COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT:  Through investigative leads that we developed along with the Orange County sheriff‘s department and the United States Marshal Service.  We were able to compile the leads and come up with a location. 

COSBY:  Now, he didn‘t use his real name when he checked in, right? 

WRIGHT:  We believe that maybe a third person checked into the room for him. 

COSBY:  A third person, in addition to the woman? 

WRIGHT:  Well, it was a different name, so we can only assume that somebody else had actually rented the room. 

COSBY:  So are you looking for now a third person tonight? 

WRIGHT:  We‘re not, at this time. 

COSBY:  Is somebody? 

WRIGHT:  There could be some other investigations going on that could lead to other parties being involved in it. 

COSBY:  Yes, you bet, especially if someone is facilitating a fugitive on the run. 

WRIGHT:  Right. 

COSBY:  I would imagine you want to nab that person.  I understand you guys, when you found him—OK, he‘s at this hotel, under this assumed name, or this other person‘s name who checks in.  You called, right?  What happened then? 

WRIGHT:  We evacuated some of the adjacent rooms to the room that we suspected Mr. Forbes was in.  And after doing that, we made a phone call to the room to attempt to make contact with him. 

COSBY:  You know, this guy has a pretty big criminal record, we‘re learning.  I want to show some of his background.  We‘ve just learned in the last few hours.  Wanted for aggravated assault, also aggravated burglary, also kidnapping a child under the age of 13, and armed burglary, as you can see there, and also probation violation. 

How worried were you that this could end violently?  I know his family was very worried. 

WRIGHT:  Well, anytime you‘re dealing with somebody, not just necessarily with a criminal history like that, but that has the potential to be armed, we‘re always worried and concerned for the public, as well as fellow officers. 

COSBY:  Well, great ending.  And hood job by your part and also U.S.  marshals there.  Thank you so much, sir.  Glad it ended peacefully. 

WRIGHT:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And new developments in the death of Virginia college student Taylor Behl tonight.  We are just learning that the suspect in the case—there he is—Ben Fawley spoke to police for nearly two hours about this case. 

Meantime, Behl‘s family gathered for her funeral in Vienna, Virginia, today.  Her body was found last week in rural Virginia, as you know. 

“Richmond Times-Dispatch” reporter Jim Nolan joins me now live on the phone.  Jim, when and what did Ben Fawley tell police? 

JIM NOLAN, “RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH”:  Well, Rita, we‘re not privy to all the details of the discussion.  What we do know is that, on Wednesday, he instructed his lawyer and the jailers to reach out to police, saying that he wanted to speak. 

He had something he wanted to say.  His lawyer actually described him as frantic in his interest in talking to police. 

COSBY:  Do you get a sense, Jim, that that was a confession? 

NOLAN:  Well, we‘re not sure exactly what it is at this stage, Rita.  But it certainly—the lawyer intimated that he wanted to tell police and help them resolve some of the issues surrounding Taylor Behl.  It was that vague. 

And the lawyer told me that he thought that Ben Fawley wanted to give them an idea of what had happened.  Now, we can draw our own conclusions from that and say that he probably knows something about her death.  And that is clearly what police are investigating now. 

I think they‘ve spoke to him for an extensive period of time.  They are now going over his statement.  They‘ve transcribed it.  And they‘re in the process of checking a number of the things that he‘s told them.  And then, I think, after a little bit of time, we‘ll start to get a better understanding of what exactly Fawley told them about Taylor Behl, about her disappearance, and perhaps about her death. 

COSBY:  You‘re right.  And, again, we‘re not sure if it‘s a confession or if he‘s saying we were all abducted together.  He had that wacky abduction story. 

Jim, please keep us posted with this breaking news.  We appreciate it.

And, everybody, still ahead, paparazzi or stalker-azzi?  How far is too far when photographers are trying to get the pictures of the stars that you want to see? 

And 16 babies—yes—and counting.  There they are.  Look at them, all cute and waving.  The couple who just had their 16th baby tells me if they‘re ready for another one.  And look, she just has another little cutie in her hands.  The whole family‘s with us live.  They‘re coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, the demand for celebrity pictures is definitely on the rise.  And that means big business for celebrity photographers. 

But are the paparazzi really to blame for the recent rash of run-ins with the Hollywood big stars that we‘ve been hearing so much about?  One photographer allegedly used aggressive tactics to take pictures of actress Reese Witherspoon.  Could he could face up to three and a half years in jail if convicted?  Well, he could.

And then, there was the Lindsay Lohan mishap.  It made a lot of headlines.  She claims that she was running from the paparazzi when she crashed her car.  And the list goes on, and it goes on and on. 

Joining me now live is leading celebrity publicist Ken Sunshine, who reps some of Hollywood‘s biggest names.  You know, Ken, do you think the paparazzi—do you think they‘re out of control? 

KEN SUNSHINE, CELEBRITY PUBLICIST:  Yes. 

COSBY:  Why? 

SUNSHINE:  Because anybody that goes near or watches a celebrity, particularly in L.A.—it‘s much worse in L.A. now than anywhere—would be appalled by the tactics they‘re using to get photos at any cost.

Putting a camera two inches away from a celebrity and snapping constantly without stopping, jumping out of trees, out of bushes, trying to cause accidents in cars, trying to create chaos.  The Reese Witherspoon incident, to me, is among the worst that I‘ve heard of. 

When is it going to stop?  I mean, Princess Diana is dead, at least in part, because of an insane aggressive actions by these stalkers.  I thought it might stop then.  It‘s gotten worse. 

COSBY:  And isn‘t there sort of, though, a need-need relationship?  I mean, they‘re not all bad.  You know, you represent, I know, a lot of the big names, Ben Affleck, to name one.  And his relationship with J-Lo was all in the headlines always.

Doesn‘t it help, also?  And now he‘s with Jennifer Garner.  I mean, don‘t you also want these great pictures, because they certainly elevate the star? 

SUNSHINE:  No. 

COSBY:  You don‘t at all? 

SUNSHINE:  No.

COSBY:  Wait, so you‘re saying no cameras, no pictures at all? 

SUNSHINE:  You know, obviously, we want photos of movies or projects that we‘re promoting.  But in terms of, do my clients want photos taken in this manner?  No and, in fact, wish they wouldn‘t get them.

And I understand that the tactics of the regular paparazzis, you know, the normal fray of getting photos of celebrities while they‘re walking down the street may be part of the price of celebrity.  Now, I may not like it, and I wish that it wouldn‘t exist, but that‘s a lot different than these aggressive stalker tactics that are going on all the time, particularly in L.A.  It‘s outrageous.

COSBY:  Now, Ken, you‘re obviously in a vocal crusade.  How come other people have not jumped the bandwagon?  Are you disappointed that other P.R.  reps who have had, you know, unfortunately similar incidents with their own stars, too?  Are you disappointed you‘re one of the lone voices out there really fighting for this?

SUNSHINE:  No, they are other voices.  I mean, some are—you know, they don‘t like going public like this.  And I don‘t know. 

But I hear from celebrity reps all the time.  Unfortunately, there are a few.  And it‘s part of the dirty little secret in Hollywood.  Some of the press reps, these P.R. people, are part of the problem, because they feed some of these stalkers with information, they sell out their a-level celebrities so that unknowns they may represent may get in some of these magazines. 

It‘s part of the dirty little secret of Hollywood.  But the great majority of press people agree with me.  They may not choose to be as outspoken.  And, you know, that‘s their privilege. 

COSBY:  Well, Ken Sunshine, it‘s great to have you with us.  I know you represent a lot of the big guys out there.  And we appreciate it.  Ben Affleck, Leonardo DiCaprio, Justin Timberlake, just to name a few.  Thank you, Ken, very much for being with us. 

SUNSHINE:  Thank you, Rita. 

COSBY:  Thanks.

And now, thanks to a new law in California, celebrities can triple the damages that they could win if they‘re assaulted by the paparazzi.  But are the photographers really to blame?  Joining me now is one known celebrity photographer, James Edstrom. 

Ken Sunshine says you guys are out of control.  Are you? 

JAMES EDSTROM, CELEBRITY PHOTOGRAPHER:  There are a certain amount of people that are out of control, OK?  But the majority of the paparazzis are very hard-working people who are out there day and night taking photos and giving these people publicity. 

If nobody‘s writing about Ken‘s clients and nobody‘s photographing Ken‘s clients, Ken‘s clients are not going to be paid $20-30 million for a movie. 

COSBY:  And there‘s a lot of celebrities—you know, you talked about a couple.  In fact, John Travolta is one of your favorites, right?  There‘s a lot who say, “Thank you, thank you,” right? 

EDSTROM:  John Travolta, he‘s excellent to photograph, though his bodyguards sometimes, you know, push you out of the way.  And we always have a problem with police, too, because police always want to get involved and decide that they‘re the bodyguards to the celebrity. 

But John Travolta is great.  He always asks you what you need and what he can do.

COSBY:  Now, speaking of bodyguards, Janet Jackson.  How aggressive is that?  Is that a fight? 

EDSTROM:  Well, you know, a few months ago, I was walking down Broadway.  And one of the, you know, the cops on the beat told me that Janet Jackson was going to arrive.  And I waited in front of a theater.  And she arrived. 

And her bodyguards, or her friends, or whoever they were got very aggressive with me.  I mean, I don‘t understand why a celebrity can just not stand there for two seconds and you go on your way, I go on my way.  We work very, very hard to give these people publicity. 

COSBY:  Star Jones, how is she? 

EDSTROM:  Star Jones, I photographed a few weeks ago for South African tourism.  And she was a lot of fun.  I mean, it was just a riot photographing her.  And the photos came out fantastic. 

COSBY:  Now, I hear you have one of the hottest photos in town.  It‘s a photo with two people—one of them sitting right here.  Let‘s see it if we can.  This has got to be...

(CROSSTALK)

EDSTROM:  Oh, that‘s Denise Rich with you, Rita.  You know, Denise Rich throws the most fabulous parties in New York City, and she‘s the most fabulous person to photograph. 

COSBY:  And would that go for, what, $20-30 million, at least, that picture? 

EDSTROM:  At least. 

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  How much a really good one could go for, really quick?  What‘s the most? 

EDSTROM:  Well, you know, a lot of these photos are just good for space rate, you know?  But a lot of these paparazzis are going crazy in L.A.  And I have to agree with Ken when he says that a lot of them are out of control in L.A. 

COSBY:  Well, that‘s the key.  They have to be a classy photographer. 

There‘s a balance between the two. 

EDSTROM:  There always is a balance.  I try and be as polite as possible, but I have been attacked many, many times.  And it‘s kind of like our other problem with the business. 

COSBY:  Well, thank you very much.  And thanks for sharing your photos with us, too. 

EDSTROM:  Thank you, Rita.

COSBY:  Good to have you on. 

And up next, a couple that couldn‘t just say no to the idea of having a baby, but they couldn‘t say no 16 times.  There they are.  You‘re going to see them live.  How do they imagine their chaotic household?  And do they want to have another one?  Believe it or not, the answer is yes, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER OF 16 KIDS:  Today is Sunday morning.  And you guys are getting ready to go to church with Joshua.  And Mommy, and I, and Jen, and Jill are going to go to the hospital and get Mama checked and see how she‘s progressing. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, that was just one morning meeting, led by Dad, Jim Bob, at the Duggar house, and no doubt mornings aren‘t always that calm at their house.  That‘s because Mom, Michelle, just gave birth to—get this—baby number 16 this week. 

Joining me now live from their home in Springdale, Arkansas, is Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, along with their gorgeous kids. 

Great to have all of you guys here.  Hello, everybody.  Michelle, why so many adorable kids? 

MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER OF 16 KIDS:  Well, we believe that children are a blessing from the Lord.  They are a gift.  And we are thankful for each one of them, and we‘re enjoying them.  They‘re a lot of fun. 

COSBY:  And, in fact, I think it‘s cute, all the names.  I want to show all the J names.  I know you started with J with all their different names. 

You know, as we look at this list, if we can put this up, Bob, how do you keep them straight? 

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER OF 16 KIDS:  Well, sometimes with the names, we start at the top and just work our way down.  So the ones in the middle, we call them, you know, every name. 

COSBY:  I want to show—this is also—your house is just packed.  What, it‘s 2,400 square feet.  You just have three bedrooms, two bathrooms, one washer-dryer, one washing machine, and one dryer.  You know, Michelle, how crazy is it at your house? 

M. DUGGAR:  Well, we like to keep the washer and the dryer going around the clock to keep up with the laundry.  And then frequently we‘ll be standing in line waiting for a turn to go to the restroom around here.  So we look forward to more bathrooms in our new home. 

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  I bet.  Do you have any help at all, Michelle, like around the house?  Do you have a baby-sitter or anybody who helps cleaning? 

M. DUGGAR:  Well, the older children are wonderful helpers.  They love to take turns holding the baby.  Of course, Mommy gets her turn once in a while, but everybody else is always wanting to hold the baby.  And so we do have lots of good helpers.  The older ones are great. 

COSBY:  Let me bring in Joshua, one of the oldest kids, 17-year-old.

Josh, can you hear me? 

JOSHUA DUGGAR, ONE OF 16 KIDS IN DUGGAR FAMILY:  Yes, I can. 

COSBY:  What is it like waiting in line?  Your mom was talking about waiting in line for the bathroom, waiting in line to do things.  How much is the wait? 

JOSHUA DUGGAR:  Well, sometimes you can be in a line where you will have just two people there in front of you waiting to get into the bathroom.  And so mornings—usually, if you want to get out and go somewhere, you get up early, and get your turn in the bathroom.

And it teaches us patience.  We learn character through that.  But it‘s a lot of fun being a large family.  I enjoy it. 

COSBY:  Do you take a number, Joshua? 

JOSHUA DUGGAR:  Well, it does remind me of that.  But, no, not that far.  But we‘re looking forward—we‘re building a new house, so we‘re looking forward to that.  It will have nine bathrooms. 

COSBY:  Let me bring in Josiah, 9-year-old Josiah.  What about toys?  Do you guys fight over toys and gifts?  How do you keep things straight, Josiah? 

JOSIAH DUGGAR, ONE OF 16 KIDS IN DUGGAR FAMILY:  Well, sometimes we do, but my mom comes up and settles it. 

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  Do you usually win, or who wins? 

JOSIAH DUGGAR:  Depends on who I‘m fighting with.  If I‘m fighting with the older ones, they‘ll win, of course. 

COSBY:  Josiah, how fun is it to have such a big, wonderful family, Josiah? 

JOSIAH DUGGAR:  Well, it‘s really fun because, like, we have a lot of people to play with and so we won‘t be very lonely.  And we‘re...

COSBY:  That‘s great.  And you never get lonely.  You have a lot of company, huh? 

And you guys, all of you, thank you so much.  I understand, Michelle, too, that you want to have another one, but thank you so much for being here with your beautiful family. 

Bye, everybody. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Thank you. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Thank you.  

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Bye-bye. 

COSBY:  Bye.

And for more on the Duggar family, make sure that you watch the Discovery Health Channel on Wednesday, October 19th, at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time for an encore presentation, featuring the all-new Duggar family footage.  What a great family.

We‘re going to be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And, everybody, stick with us, because coming up on Monday night, Natalee Holloway‘s mother, Beth Holloway Twitty, is going to join me to talk about her upcoming trip to Aruba.

That does it for me.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” is now.

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Copy: Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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