updated 10/18/2005 12:28:28 PM ET 2005-10-18T16:28:28

Guests: Ivan Golde, Pat Brown, Bubba Bates, Jessica Payton, Pat Boyd, Debbie Boyd, Paul Reynolds, Paul Ciolino, Bill Browning, Anita Ortega, Paul Wallin, Mike Navarre, Herbie Howard

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, a shocking admission from the prime suspect in the death of college student Taylor Behl.  You won‘t believe what he told police about how Taylor died.  Do they believe him?

And a college student is now being held behind bars after being accused of abandoning her own baby.  Did anybody know she was pregnant?  And did she do this before?

And the Toledo police chief tells me the real story behind what sparked those race riots.  Are the neo-Nazis the only ones responsible for inciting the violence?

But first, a shocking murder case.  And unfortunately, it hits very close to home for me and probably many of you who watch my show.  The wife of famed defense attorney Daniel Horowitz was murdered at their California home over the weekend.  Horowitz is probably well known to all of you.  He‘s been a dear friend to me, and also, his wife was someone that I had the pleasure personally of befriending, as well.

In a few minutes, I‘m going to share personal reflections on this great lady, Pamela Vitale.  But first, let‘s talk about the case.  Now police are trying to figure out who is behind the brutal crime.  NBC‘s James Hattori joins us from San Francisco with the very latest.  James, what are they saying tonight?

JAMES HATTORI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Good evening, Rita.  The Contra Costa County sheriff‘s office today confirmed that Daniel Horowitz‘s wife, Pamela Vitale, was murdered.  A spokesman stressed that there is no suspect at this point, that it is a wide open investigation.  He did release results of an autopsy that was performed this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY LEE, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY SHERIFF‘S DEPT. SPOKESMAN:  The cause of death is listed as blunt force trauma to the head.  The manner of death is listed as homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HATTORI:  Now, Horowitz found his wife‘s body in their trailer in the suburb of Lafayette—that‘s east of San Francisco—Saturday evening.  They were in the process of building a 7,000-square-foot house on a remote hillside.  Now, investigators are still on that scene.  They are collecting evidence at the site.  They‘ve also questioned dozens of people so far, including Joseph Lynch (ph), who is a man who lived next door, who had reportedly clashed with Horowitz and Vitale.  At one time, the couple had sought a restraining order against him, describing him as a drug and alcohol abuser who was violent and dangerous.  However, Lynch today tells a local newspaper he was not involved in Vitale‘s death.

Horowitz is a prominent criminal defense lawyer, as you mentioned at the outset, and analyst who‘s appeared often on MSNBC, including during the Scott Peterson trial last year—which wrapped up last year, that is.  Horowitz‘s casework, of course, put him in contact with drug dealers and murderers and other dangers kind software people, which, friends say, did cause him some concern about his family‘s safety.

Among his high-profile clients is Susan Polk, who is charged with murdering her psychologist husband, Felix, three years ago.  Today, a judge declared a mistrial in her case and dismissed the jurors.  It will be continued until December.

In the meantime, it‘s an unaccustomed role for Daniel Horowitz, going from lawyer to crime victim, as police search for his wife‘s murderer—

Rita.

COSBY:  All right, James, thank you very much.

Well, as James just mentioned, Daniel Horowitz is an attorney for Susan Polk.  And just a few weeks ago, he was right here on this show, telling us about his involvement in that case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL HOROWITZ, SUSAN POLK‘S DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  As I spoke to her, I realized she is innocent.  Here‘s a completely innocent person, just like the person who lives next door, and she‘s fighting for her life alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, we‘re joined now by Ivan Golde, the other guy who was sitting next to him there in that shot.  He is Daniel‘s very close friend and also co-counsel on the Susan Polk case.

Ivan, just how devastated were you when you heard the news?

IVAN GOLDE, LONG-TIME FRIEND OF DANIEL HOROWITZ:  I was extremely devastated.  Pamela Vitale was a beautiful woman.  Dan and Pamela had the perfect marriage.  Their worlds revolved around each other.  They loved each other.  I would be in the office, and Dan would call her and talk to Pamela four or five times a day.  This is very devastating and tragic.  We‘re all grieving with Dan and with Pamela Vitale‘s family.

COSBY:  You bet.  You know, I‘ll tell you, I cried when I heard the news.  You know, I had the pleasure of getting to know her.  You know, when you hear about it, too, that Dan walked in, found his wife‘s body—I talked to him a few hours ago.  How is he holding up, too, in your assessment, Ivan?

GOLDE:  He‘s doing OK.  It‘s tough.  It‘s difficult.  Dan‘s grieving.  Everyone is grieving.  Pamela was his rock, was his support, was everything to him.  Dan did everything for Pamela.  That house, his practice, the cases, it was all for Pamela.  So it‘s a very, very, very difficult situation.  But Dan is OK.  I know he‘s going to be OK.  And all we can do is give him our support, our love and grieve right along with him.

COSBY:  Oh, you bet.  And he‘s going to need good friends like you, Ivan.  You know, one of the things I know—Dan even shared with me—I know authorities are looking that this guy, he‘s a caretaker, sort of tenant on the property.  He even filed a restraining order against this guy, who was violent.  As we heard from authorities, they are doing some questioning of this guy.  Of course, they‘re looking at everybody.  But indeed, Dan says they are zeroing in on this guy.

Let me show a quote from the restraining order that was taken out just a few months ago, tried to get it filed, it was not granted.  I know that was very frustrating to Dan.  But in this restraining order, he said of this guy, “He‘s a good person at his core, but he is seriously mentally ill.  He is presently using meth and drinking heavily.  And during these periods, he is delusional, threatening, violent and dangerous.”

What did he tell you about this guy?  He told me he was very worried about this guy, particularly around his wife.

GOLDE:  I know.  I know.  It‘s very—it‘s very troubling.  But Dan tried to help this person.  That‘s the way Dan is.  He tried help this person.  He tried to talk to this person.  He tried give this person a job, have this person help around the house.  So I‘m glad the police are zeroing in on this suspect.  And hopefully, they can make the arrest and get the appropriate evidence so we can begin the prosecution of this case and this person can be brought to justice, whoever did this.

COSBY:  Absolutely.

GOLDE:  And if this person is the person, they must be brought to justice immediately.

COSBY:  How do you feel—you know, the case, obviously—you and Dan were on this amazing high-profile case, the Susan Polk case.  How do you feel, knowing—and what‘s the sense from Susan on the mistrial being declared by the judge a few hours ago?

GOLDE:  Well, let me tell you, the judge was reluctant to declare a mistrial.  I pushed for it, and there were a lot of reasons for that.  But Susan knows that everything is going to be OK.  We‘re there for her.  Dan and I are going to go back into court at some point and defend Susan Polk.  Susan Polk is innocent of this crime.  We know that.  Dan and I have worked hour upon hour on her case.  We had to declare a mistrial at this time.  We had to.  The district attorney did go along.  He submitted to that.

So right now, our focus is on Dan Horowitz and the family of Pamela Vitale and Dan‘s family.  That‘s where our focus is right now.

COSBY:  Yes, and Ivan, real quick, how did she react to the news, Susan Polk?  I bet she was so upset for Daniel.

GOLDE:  Of course, she was devastated.  Of course, she was devastated.  Susan is part of our family.  Susan, Dan, myself, we‘re all very, very close.  She was completely devastated.  She couldn‘t bear to hear what happened.  So it‘s—it‘s just grieving from all circles.  It really is.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And Ivan, thank you for being here tonight.  I know it‘s very tough for you personally.  And of course, we love Dan so much.  Thank you so much.

GOLDE:  Thank you, Rita.

COSBY:  And we‘re joined now by criminal profiler Pat Brown.  Pat, let‘s talk a little bit about this case before I go into some personal thoughts about Pam.  You know, they definitely seem to be zeroing in—that‘s what Dan told me.  I want to show a quote, a little bit of what Dan told me earlier today.  They‘re definitely zeroing in, authorities, in on a tenant who lived on the property.  This man seemed to resent selling the land to Horowitz, to Dan.  He had mental problems.  And there was a restraining order against him.

Does it sound like this is clearly the prime suspect, as Dan suspects?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER:  Well, Rita, I think, yes, this is, at the moment, the prime suspect.  You know, these restraining orders, they really never do much good.  They‘re just a piece of paper, and if you‘re already crazy, that piece of paper isn‘t going to stop you from doing something.

When you have a woman who is an isolated circumstance, and you‘ve got neighbors—you know, you often hear of a handyman killing somebody, or a guy—you know, when we talked about Elizabeth Smart, that was a guy working on the property—you get people who have emotional problems that are near you, and you‘re isolated with them, anything can go wrong at any time.  So obviously, this person is going to be one of the number one suspects.

COSBY:  Let me show you some details of the crime scene.  Some of this has not been reported before, but that I was told, some of the things in the crime scene.  The door was shoved.  Apparently, it was sort of slammed up.  I‘m also told that the TV was pushed, that maybe she was pushed up against the TV.  Also, they believe the killer took a shower, cleaned up the crime scene.  Apparently, there was a lot of luminol, which showed a lot of blood in the shower in the crime scene.

Does this sound like someone who was familiar with the home, would know the area, to go and take a shower?

BROWN:  Well, you know, it depends.  If the guys is a few burritos short of a—you know, a combination platter, he might not even realize what he‘s doing.  He might simply think that any of these behaviors are OK, and therefore, he‘ll just, you know, have these peculiar behaviors.

Unfortunately, like for Dan, he‘s going to find himself also focused on.  So he‘s—I hope he has a great alibi because husbands, even if they‘re in the limelight, even if they‘re great defense lawyers, even if they‘re, like I am, you know, a person who comes on and commentates, if you are the spouse of a person who is murdered, you‘re going to be the number one suspect, along with possibly the neighbor.  So you hope you have a darn good alibi because women are usually killed most often by their husbands in a violent argument.

So I think the police are obviously going to look at that, too, which puts Dan in a horrible position because he—you know, not only does he lose his wife, but he gets to be a possible suspect, as well.

COSBY:  And as you point out, it‘s standard procedure.  They also talk to the neighbors...

BROWN:  Absolutely.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN:  Anybody who‘s got the proximity to the victim...

COSBY:  Right.  You just have to.  Pat, real quick, does it sound like this was something planned out, or does it sound like somebody who just had a grudge and just snapped?

BROWN:  It sounds more like a snap thing.  I mean, there‘s really—unless they have some real idea something is going on, I think Dan was worried about other people in his life that he had, you know, worked with in the defense business.  But I don‘t see this as something that probably somebody came back to get him.  Doesn‘t sound like that.  There‘s no messages there.  I think we‘re looking at a—some kind of rage, a moment of rage.  But the question is, Who had that moment of rage?  And they‘re going to look at whoever had the proximity to her and had some kind issue at that point in time.  So I think they‘re—their number one suspects are going to be this gentleman who was near the property who was—seems psychotic.

And (INAUDIBLE) unfortunately, they‘re going to look at Dan because he

is the husband.  But they—we hope—we hope, of course, that he—you

know, that doesn‘t end up anywhere going down that road.  But it is a

difficult situation to be in.  I mean, as a profiler, one of my biggest

fears, when people ask me, What is the biggest fear in your life, it‘s one

of my children gets murdered because, I mean, we know what it‘s like to be

we‘ve defended people like that.  We‘ve worked with people who‘ve been murder victims, and it‘s a horrible circumstance.

COSBY:  Absolutely.

BROWN:  Absolutely.

COSBY:  Pat, thank you very much.

And everybody, before we go to break now, I do want to say a personal note about Pam Vitale, Dan Horowitz‘s wife and also my friend.  I was honored to have known her and have dinner with her on several occasions when I was out in California doing a lot of stories—as you just heard, the Peterson case.  She was really an extraordinary woman, and she had a smile that could light up a room, just a wonderful sense of humor.  She was an independent film producer at one time and also a very successful IT—you know, into technology at Hewlett-Packard.  She left both of those jobs to be with her kids and to be with Dan because that‘s where her priorities were.

When we went to dinner the first time, I remember she told me how she met Dan when he wrote a screenplay, and they both looked at each other, they both smiled and said that they fell in love within minutes.  That whole dinner, when I was out with them, they were holding hands the entire time.  It was truly an inspiring and beautiful sight.

Dan told me today that she was his rock.  And more important than any of his TV appearances or his great career, all these great cases he‘s been involved with, high-profile cases, the most important thing to him was his unwavering love for her.

I feel blessed to have known her, and I know she will truly be missed by me and by so many people.

There‘s a lot more ahead tonight, including a developing story about a missing woman last seen on surveillance video with strangers.  We‘ve got a lot.  Take a look.

Still ahead: death during rough sex.  The prime suspect in the death of Taylor Behl admits he killed the Virginia college student by accident, but the girl‘s mother is not buying his story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET PELASARA, TAYLOR BEHL‘S MOTHER:  My daughter died a violent and unspeakable death at the hands of Ben Fawley.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Now the suspect‘s former girlfriend is telling me what she knows about his bizarre confession.

And new details tonight about what really sparked the Toledo riots.  Were neo-Nazi gangs just trying to incite the violence?  And what‘s going to happen to the people who were caught looting?  It‘s coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PELASARA:  Let‘s be clear.  Ben Fawley murdered my daughter.  His claim that it was accidental is just one more perversion of his truth his the ever-changing web of lies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, that was Taylor Behl‘s mother speaking out about Ben Fawley, the who reportedly has admitted to killing her daughter, Taylor, claiming it was an accident during rough sex.  We‘re also learning a grand jury is set to meet this week in the case.  Is an indictment coming down?

Joining me now is a private investigator Taylor Behl‘s family has hired to help find her killer, Bubba Bates.  Mr. Bates, first of all, you know, Ben Fawley says it was accidental, I was having rough sex.  Do you believe him?

BUBBA BATES, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Personally, I don‘t.

COSBY:  Why not?

BATES:  Well, I think if you look back at the extent of the rhetoric that has been going on for the past several weeks, this most recent story that came forth related to the rough sex incident and how she died during the course of that, it all ties together with a lot of other inconsistencies in his statements previously, that leads you to believe he‘s been basically using the opportunities to get this information out as he sets a defensive posture for himself.

COSBY:  Do you believe even the sex was consensual, even?

BATES:  You know, actually, no, I don‘t.  I was in a situation this past week where I spent a good deal of time in northern Virginia during the funeral and at the visitation prior to the funeral on Friday, and had an opportunity to talk with many people who came to pay their last respects.  And based what I‘ve heard and the information that we‘ve been able to develop, there was no ongoing relationship, from an intimate standpoint, that was continuing with Mr. Fawley at this time.

COSBY:  So maybe he forced her into sex and things got out of hand and she fought back.  You know, one of the things—we had a forensic pathologist on.  He suspected that maybe she had been suffocated.  Was there anything found at the scene or any indication to you that that might have been the case, that are inconsistent with his story of choking her?

BATES:  Well, I do know that from the forensic standpoint, the forensic testing has not been completed, as we currently sit.  The medical examiner‘s office‘s initial assessment of the situation was that there hasn‘t been—there were no obvious causes of death with the remains that were looked at and found at the scene in Mathews County.  Beyond that, I think we just have to hurry up and wait for the forensic testing to come back and see what light that sheds on the situation.

COSBY:  Yes, Mr. Bates, hold on.  I want to bring in with us now into the conversation Ben Fawley‘s ex-girlfriend, Jessica Payton, who joins me now on the phone.  Jessica, what do you make of his statements that it was rough sex that got out of control?  Do you believe him?

JESSICA PAYTON, BEN FAWLEY‘S EX-GIRLFRIEND:  Oh, absolutely not.

COSBY:  Why not?

PAYTON:  Because his excuses keep changing every time.

COSBY:  Do you believe it was accidental?  Is he the kind of guy that that could have happened, or do you think this was just another lie in Ben Fawley‘s trail of lies?

PAYTON:  I definitely think he‘s lying because he seems to be hiding something because first he says he‘s abducted.  Now, you know, he‘s, like, Oh, by the way, I buried her body, and it was an accident.  You know, why would you hide someone‘s body if it was an accident?

COSBY:  Yes, that brings up a good point.  Mr. Bates, I‘m sure you think that, too.  Do you think—why do you think he confessed, Mr. Bates?  Do you think just the walls were squeezing in on him?

BATES:  Oh, I think there are a lot of possibilities there.  When you look at the scope of the investigation and the hard work that‘s been put forth by the task force that was assembled here, they‘ve done an excellent job in getting to this point.

And interestingly, as you continue to pursue the situation with this information that‘s coming out, quite frankly, we don‘t know where it‘s coming from.  It‘s been described in the media as a leak.  We don‘t know the source of the leak.  And it‘s just interesting that as this information develops from Mr. Fawley‘s perspective, it just seems very convenient that he‘s able, at this point in time, to speak and tell both sides of the story simply because Taylor‘s not here to tell her side.

COSBY:  No, you bring up—let me bring in Jessica.  Jessica, you had a very violent relationship with this guy.  In fact, I know when you were on my show before, you said he‘s capable of murder.  Tell us about your own relationship and why do you think he might have been capable of this.

PAYTON:  Oh, you know, around the time when we broke up, you know, I -

it was a very violent episode, and I ended up taking him to court for domestic assault.  He has a tendency to, you know, be this really nice guy, but then, you know, when he gets—his mental problems tend to make him go nuts and he gets very, you know, obsessive.  And I just really—I really think he could have just flipped out and done something.

COSBY:  Well, both of you, thank you very much.  And of course, we‘ll be watching this case very, very closely.  Everybody, again, grand jury meeting this week.  We‘ll be watching to see if, indeed, an indictment may come down.  Thank you, both of you.

Major developments tonight now in the disappearance of Christie Wilson.  She‘s that young woman who was last seen leaving a California casino October 5.  Police have now arrested this man, 53-year-old Mario Garcia, who‘s a person of interest in the case.  He‘s being held on unrelated weapons charges, but authorities think he knows what happened to Christie after the two left a casino together.  They‘re leaving.  You can see it was all caught on tape by the casino‘s surveillance cameras.  We‘ve been showing this video, in fact, since it came in a few days ago.

Joining us now are Christie‘s parents, Pat and Debbie Boyd.  And also, her (INAUDIBLE) is also, hopefully, going to be with us at a later time.

Let‘s -- (INAUDIBLE) if we could go—Pat, let‘s show the rap sheet of this guy because now we know who he is, Mario Garcia, pretty violent background, person of interest, again, in this case, even though he‘s not charged in this case.  But in 1979, he was arrested and charged with kidnapping and rape.  He was eventually convicted of felony assault with a deadly weapon, pled down.  What do you make of this, Pat?

PAT BOYD, CHRISTIE WILSON‘S STEPFATHER:  Well, I‘m horrified at it, as any parent would be.  And you have to think, How many things did he get away with from 1979 until today?  How many other victims are out there, whether reported or unreported?  I‘m sure there‘s some people who have been afraid to come forward, so we‘re asking them to come forward.  This is just terrifying for the family.

COSBY:  And in fact, I know that they have a couple of people that they‘re looking for specifically tonight, folks who were in the casino.  If anybody‘s watching, Debbie, what would you want to say to them?  Because, indeed, look, it was a crowded casino, probably people who saw Mr. Garcia and Christie talking.

DEBBIE BOYD, CHRISTIE WILSON‘S MOTHER:  That‘s right.  What I‘d really clearly like to communicate to them is that, you know, when you were there, even in the spirit of fun, whatever communication that took place at that table that you heard, I would just really so much appreciate if would you come forward.  And even if there‘s some communication that took place between Mr. Garcia and Christie, that, you know, however insignificant it may seem, it could be a possible lead in this case.  And if you could please be open to contacting the law enforcement officials and sharing what you heard, it would be most appreciated.

COSBY:  You bet because they may have seen something that maybe they don‘t even think, at this point, you know, that it was suspicious, that would help in the case.  You know, Pat, the guy is held on unrelated charges.  You know, you‘re a detective yourself.  Does that say to you they‘re trying to sort of squeeze him in, hold him, make sure that he‘s not out there fleeing?

PAT BOYD:  Well, not only out there fleeing, that he may not be hurting somebody else, it gives them more time so he can‘t destroy or hide evidence.  Anything and everything that—he just should not be on the street, period, and I think they‘re trying to make their community safer by keeping him locked up for whatever they can, as long as they can.

COSBY:  And holding something over him, too, you know, for leverage, as you know.  You know, Debbie, you believe that Mario Garcia‘s wife maybe knows what happened or knows something.  If she‘s watching tonight—this is, of course, the wife of the man who‘s the prime, you know, sort of person of interest, even as authorities have said—what would you want to say to her?

DEBBIE BOYD:  What I‘d really like to say is, one, given Mr. Garcia‘s background, it‘s obvious to me that perhaps, Mrs. Garcia, you may be intimidated by your own husband.  And I think this is a time when you really need to take a self-inventory.  What are you really thinking?  Do you want to see other people be victimized, and perhaps even yourself at this point?

This is an opportunity, quite frankly, for you to have a way out.  Living with a gentleman like him, obviously, you must have a lot of your own emotional pain going on, and perhaps even your children, as well.  I ask to you please come forward, share—perhaps, if you don‘t know anything about what happened between Mr. Garcia and my daughter that evening, perhaps you have other instances of even yourself being victimized by your own husband.  Please, please, feel comfortable, feel safe in sharing that.  It can help us.  We want to bring our daughter home, whether, unfortunately, she could be dead or alive.  But you know, in the end, this could also very much help you, as well.

COSBY:  You bet.  And I hope she is watching tonight.  And I hope both of you get some answers very soon.  We‘re going to stay on this case, do whatever we can.  Thank you very much, Mr. and Mrs. Boyd.  We appreciate it.

DEBBIE BOYD:  Thank you for having us.

COSBY:  Thank you.

And still ahead: What made Natalee Holloway‘s mother suddenly decide not to go back to Aruba?  We have some new developments.  We‘ll find out what‘s hampering the search for answers in Natalee‘s disappearance.

And a woman is accused of abandoning her newborn baby.  Why did the young woman do it?  And get this.  She did this once before.  Wait until you hear why police didn‘t charge her the first time.  Stay tuned.  We got a more ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And now, to new developments tonight in the search for Natalee Holloway.  Potentially blockbuster evidence is now on its way to the island of Aruba, should get there on Wednesday.  Tapes of suspect Deepak Kalpoe talking about the night Natalee vanished are expected again to arrive in the middle of the week.  And Aruba authorities say Kalpoe‘s words could give them the break that they have been waiting for.

Meanwhile, a late development tonight.  We‘ve learned Natalee‘s mom will not return to the island as soon as she thought.  She was planning on going as early as tomorrow. 

Joining us now on the phone tonight is Paul Reynolds.  He‘s Natalee‘s uncle. 

Paul, you know, we understand now last minute that Beth is not going down there.  We‘re hearing she‘s getting a lot of threats.  Is the pressure that bad in Aruba that things have stepped up that much? 

PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S UNCLE:  I have not heard about the threats.  You know, the last time I talked to Beth was last week.  And both she and I were very optimistic about Gerold Dompig‘s statement that he‘s reopened the investigation, that he wants to talk to several people, and that, quite possibly, might arrest the suspects again, depending upon his abilities to verify the tape and get some more information. 

COSBY:  Yes, you bet.  In fact, I want to show that comment.  Because if you‘re watching our show, everybody, on Friday night, we had the chief on.  He‘s the deputy chief, or sort of the acting chief now, there in Aruba. 

We asked him specifically, “Are you honing in?  Could you get passed the point of questioning these guys, if the tape is authentic?”  And he made some pretty bold statements, saying just what Paul Reynolds said.  Let‘s take a listen to the deputy chief. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEROLD DOMPIG, DEPUTY POLICY CHIEF OF ARUBA:  I‘m sure that, if we can determine that the tapes are authentic, then we have a strong case to make before a judge to get new warrants for searches and eventually re-arrests. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Paul, are you getting a sense of optimism that they‘re really going to go through with it this time, if indeed they can prove these tapes are authentic? 

REYNOLDS:  We think so.  You know, Gerold is expressing a personal interest in this case.  We‘re very glad to hear that. 

And, you know, Deepak is talking.  Even Joran is talking.  And we feel that‘s going to lead us where we need to go to get some information and find out what happened. 

COSBY:  You bet.  And, Paul Reynolds, stay with us, because I want to bring into the conversation Paul Ciolino.  He‘s a former homicide investigator. 

Paul, first of all, let‘s talk about Beth not going down there because she‘s getting all of these threats, death threats and the like.  Pretty serious stuff.  The heat is definitely on, it seems, in Aruba.  What do you make of that? 

PAUL CIOLINO, FMR. HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, I don‘t know what kind of threats Mrs. Holloway is getting.  But I can tell you one thing, working internationally often, that we just cannot go down there and impose our will whenever we feel like it, not just Aruba but any foreign, sovereign nation.

They‘re going to get their back up, and you‘re going to have a problem with them.  I think part of the problem in this case has been the level of animosity that‘s been going on between the Americans and the Arubans. 

If this was handled more back-door than publicly, we might be getting a lot more cooperation out of them. 

On the other hand, Rita, let‘s not forget, there‘s no body, there‘s no confession, there‘s no blood, there‘s no CSI showing up here with any evidence.  And even in Aruba, you got to have some probable cause to arrest somebody.  And I think that‘s going to happen, if everybody‘s patient and they let these guys do their job. 

COSBY:  Let me show a comment, both of you Pauls.  This is a comment -

this is from Jamie Skeeters.  He‘s a polygrapher, actually did that interview with Deepak Kalpoe. 

I thought it was pretty amazing.  This is one of the things he said.  I asked him point blank.  I said, you know, “First of all, did Deepak say he had anything to do with Natalee Holloway‘s death?”  He said, “No.”  And then I said, “What about Joran?”  And he claims that there is some evidence on a tape where, in deed, Deepak says Joran basically killed her.

Let‘s show—first of all, this is what Jamie Skeeters said on my show Friday night. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE SKEETERS, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  The main conversation I had with him, I asked him point blank, “Did you kill Natalee?”  He said, “No.”  I said, “Did Satish kill Natalee?”  He said, “No.” 

And I said, “Did Joran kill Natalee?”  He goes, “Well, it wasn‘t me.  It wasn‘t my brother.  So what do you think?”  And he nodded his head yes, and raised his—shrugged his shoulders. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Paul Reynolds, that could be pretty powerful, at least to hang over Deepak‘s head, if, indeed, there‘s evidence on tape saying that.

REYNOLDS:  Well, that‘s true.  It‘s important that Deepak is saying that.  We also have to remember that, in an earlier statement from Joran, he said that Deepak had killed Natalee.  So they‘re both blaming each other.  And it‘s difficult for us to tell which one is responsible, but we feel they both know. 

COSBY:  And that seems to be the consensus from a lot of people. 

Paul Ciolino, you know, as we‘re hearing from Paul Reynolds, seems to be a lot of finger-pointing, both pointing at each other.  This, though, if indeed these things are on tape—we‘ve heard some of them.  Pretty strong stuff.  You know, Deepak saying everybody had sex with her. 

Can they at least use that as leverage on Deepak to crack? 

CIOLINO:  Well, yes, absolutely.  If they commit some sort of crime, or you get them talking about each other, that‘s where you always want to go with this. 

But, you know, we‘re jumping, because I haven‘t seen a tape or a videotape.  I don‘t know what was said prior to this interrogation taking place, what was said afterwards, what kind of promises were made. 

I mean, a good defense lawyer is not going to just sit back on his hands and throw his hands up and go, “Oh, gee, you know, we‘re in trouble now.  He made a statement.”  There‘s a lot that needs to be looked at and investigated before everyone gets all excited and gets ready to write the murder indictment out. 

COSBY:  Yes.  And, Paul Reynolds, are you cautiously optimistic then? 

REYNOLDS:  We are optimistic.  And, you know, I want to stress—you mentioned something about possibly Beth may have been receiving some threats. 

But, you know, most of the people in Aruba have been very supportive of us from the very beginning.  They‘ve been very helpful.  And, you know, we‘ve seen that all over the island. 

If there‘s some people there that don‘t want her to come there, I think it‘s a very small minority.  And we just can‘t let them take control of this. 

COSBY:  No, you‘re absolutely right.  You cannot let a few—and I can tell you, when I was down there, they seemed very appreciative, very supportive of her.  So I agree with you.  Over all, everybody wants this case to be solved. 

Thank you both very much.  We appreciate it. 

And now onto another story.  A Pennsylvania mother is fighting to keep her unborn baby tonight.  But so far, she‘s managed to keep local child protective officials at bay. 

A federal judge just a little bit ago has kept a restraining order in place to keep county officials away from Melissa WolfHawk.  The decision could be revisited as early as next week. 

Now, the reason for all of this attention is the baby‘s father is a convicted sex offender who could pose a direct threat to the child, according to the county.  Joining us now on the phone tonight is Bill Browning.  He‘s the director of Children and Youth Services in Scranton, Pennsylvania. 

We should mention that his office is not connected with the case, but at least can speak about this from that realm. 

You know, Bill, let me ask you.  How can a county do this?  And, again, this isn‘t—the woman is not accused of being—she‘s not a sex offender.  It‘s the husband who has a track record.  Can they do this? 

BILL BROWNING, SCRANTON, PA, CHILDREN AND YOUTH SERVICES:  Yes, they can.  I mean, one of the things that we can do is ask, or at least once the child is born, is try to find out what the safety plan is for that child. 

Now, one of the—under Pennsylvania law, there‘s a thing called imminent risk of sexual abuse.  With that, that means that if the person knows that they‘re living with a convicted sex offender, that in and of itself can be grounds for saying that the mother in this case is a perpetrator. 

COSBY:  And, Bill, I just want to let people know, this is video that we just got in of the court proceeding that took place.  Again, it was basically delayed up until next week. 

Bill, we know that Melissa—the woman that we‘re looking at here—her 21-month-old daughter is already in protective custody in Maryland in a different state.  You know, given that information, are the odds against her in this one? 

BROWNING:  I think so, because whether the court finds the Children Youth Services have to stay away from her until the birth of this child, ultimately what may happen is that Children Youth Services can then file for a dependency of this newborn, based on several factors, one is that she‘s living with a convicted sex offender. 

Now, what happens after that is—upon court, there‘s a thing called aggravated circumstances, which we can ask and say, “Judge, this person has been the father, or the person living with her, has been convicted of serious sex crimes.”

And he may find, based on that evidence alone, aggravated circumstances which then may even free the child up for termination of parental rights or anything, you know, along the line. 

But first step is, though, they have to look at the case individually.  Now, not knowing any of the specifics of this case, other than what I‘ve read and heard on the news, they have to look at what were the acts, as far as the crimes that he committed? 

From the paper, I know that it was committed against two teenagers.  His attorney is arguing, “Well, they‘re teenagers.  It‘s not babies.”  And that‘s pretty much amiss, because in sex offender realms and the literature shows that there‘s really no specific target. 

COSBY:  All right.  Well, Mr. Browning, thank you very much. 

And, again, the husband—I‘m looking at his rap sheet—pleaded guilty to rape, attempted rape, sodomy, and attempted sodomy in New York in 1983.  So some pretty rough stuff, as we‘ve been showing there on the screen.  Thank you. 

And coming up, a woman makes a startling admission to police that she threw away her stillborn baby.  Wait until you hear why they were questioning her in the background on this case. 

And race riots and looting in Toledo.  Who is to blame, the neo-Nazis for starting the violence or the gangs for taking the bait?  I‘ll ask the chief of police.  He‘s coming up, LIVE & DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  A lot of people, I‘ve also heard, have called her a baby killer.  A lot of harsh words from people because they feel what she did was wrong. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, she was talking about University of Southern California fellow student Holly Ashcraft.  Ashcraft has been charged with the abandonment and death of her newborn. 

And get this:  If it‘s true, it would not be the first time.  Ashcraft reportedly told authorities that she disposed of another child, a stillborn baby, last year. 

Joining me now on the phone is Ashcraft attorney Paul Wallin.  Also on the phone is Captain Anita Ortega with the Los Angeles Police Department‘s juvenile division.

Let me start with you, Captain Ortega.  Tell us about this case.  And how did they link—there was a baby, what, found in the dumpster?  How did we link that to the student?

CAPT. ANITA ORTEGA, LAPD JUVENILE DIVISION:  Well, the prior case in 2004 was investigated by my investigators.  However, there was no arrest, and there was no filing by the district attorney.  So I really have no further on that particular case. 

COSBY:  Yes, I‘m talking about this case, Captain.  In this particular case, tell us about what happened in this case? 

ORTEGA:  Well, in this case, on Monday night, which was October 10th, we received a radio call of a child that had been abandoned and found dead near 29th and Hoover, which is very, very close to the University of Southern California. 

When officers responded, in fact, there was a dead child.  And we conducted our investigation from that point on. 

COSBY:  How did you link it to Holly Ashcraft?  How did you link the baby, this, you know, random baby found?

ORTEGA:  Yes, you know, it was the relentless and diligent work of the detectives.  They canvassed the area.  They talked to everyone in the area.  Holly lived very close to the trash area.  So we were able to locate her in a very short period of time. 

COSBY:  And what do we know, Captain, about the father? 

ORTEGA:  We don‘t know anything about the father at this point, nothing at all. 

COSBY:  Did anybody know that Holly was pregnant? 

ORTEGA:  From what my indications and my sources tell me, no one had an idea that she was pregnant, and that includes the owner of the 29 Restaurant (ph), which is right below her residence. 

COSBY:  So she was not even telling anyone she was pregnant?  How far along was the—I mean, obviously, was she nine months?  How far along? 

ORTEGA:  This was a full-term baby, a full-term baby boy. 

COSBY:  Wow.  How serious is this now, in terms of charges?  What is she facing?

ORTEGA:  Well, unfortunately, she‘s facing some very serious charges.  The D.A. filed two counts, one count of the crime of murder, the second count of child abuse.  She‘s presently incarcerated.  She has a $2 million bail.  And her arraignment date will be on November 9th

COSBY:  All right, Captain.  Thank you very much.  We appreciate it. 

COSBY:  Well, let‘s bring in if we could now Paul Wallin, who is Ashcraft‘s attorney.  You know, Mr. Wallin, I understand that at least one of your colleagues at least saw her. 

How is she doing?  And what is she saying about what happened? 

PAUL WALLIN, HOLLY ASHCROFT‘S ATTORNEY:  Well, first of all, this is probably one of the most tragic things that can ever happen in anyone‘s life.  And it‘s a horrifying time.  And everyone should be feeling extremely sorry for the entire circumstance.

And what‘s very unfortunate is that this 21-year-old student, who has never had a traffic ticket in her life, is in jail in an isolated jail cell on $2 million bail when a murderer, a murderer on the street, who we know killed someone with a gun, wouldn‘t have bail at this level. 

That‘s what‘s just shocking to me, that my client, who is obviously going through an unbelievable tragic time, no matter what the facts are, a mother here has lost a child.  Under whatever circumstances, that‘s what we can‘t lose sight of. 

COSBY:  But does she realize, Mr. Wallin—I got to interrupt you...

WALLIN:  A mother has lost her child.

COSBY:  ... because this is a girl who clearly, as we know, has a track record.  I know in the other case it was investigated.  Charges were not filed.  But now, you know, it seems a little coincidental. 

WALLIN:  I know, but what...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  I mean, are they looking at that? 

WALLIN:  What‘s interesting is—what‘s scary is that programs like yours cause this exact problem in our society. 

You don‘t know anything.  You don‘t know any facts other than that little blurb given you by the police officer.  But you don‘t know anything about a track record.  You don‘t know anything about a stillborn.

And the facts of this case are not what‘s at issue here.  What‘s at issue here right now is that this woman is sitting in jail on $2 million bail, which is unbelievably excessive, and she‘s never even been arrested for a traffic ticket before. 

It‘s a tragedy.  This is a tragedy.  If (INAUDIBLE) child were born stillborn, as the facts may evidence, then there‘s not even a crime.  And she‘s sitting in jail on $2 million bail. 

COSBY:  And, Mr. Wallin, I do...

WALLIN:  That‘s the crime.

COSBY:  I‘m going to interrupt you again.  But I do agree with you.  The bail is very, very high.  But the prosecutors are saying that the baby was born alive. 

WALLIN:  But the prosecutors will admit...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  And that‘s the issue that they‘re taking with. 

WALLIN:  But the prosecutors will admit—let me tell you.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  But that‘s the issue that they‘re taking, sir.  There‘s obviously two sides to the story.

WALLIN:  But that isn‘t even true.  That‘s what I mean.  That isn‘t even true. 

The prosecutors admit—and it was in the “L.A. Times”—that no one will know for six weeks until the autopsy comes back as to whether the child was living or dead. 

And it is our intention, obviously, that it was not living.  And if it was not living, then my client is not guilty of a traffic ticket, of nothing.  There‘s no crime unless the baby was living. 

And she‘s in jail on $2 million bail like she‘s some kind of mass murderer.  That‘s what‘s offensive. 

And it should be offensive to anyone, because no one knows the facts in the case yet.  And she‘s being indicted without knowing the facts.  All I‘m asking is people wait until the facts come out until we brand her as a baby killer, or you brand her as a baby killer, and... 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  And, Mr. Wallin, we‘re not doing that.  But we do appreciate you coming on, as well.  We invited you, and we‘d love to have her on, too, as well.

And do I want to show—this is a official say that a coroner‘s preliminary finding determined that the child was alive.  That‘s from this.

But I agree with you.  The bail is high.  And indeed, if it is stillborn, there‘s not an issue.  So there are two sides to the story.  We did get you on to show that. 

And coming up, everybody, still ahead:  Are neo-Nazis really to blame for the race riots in Toledo?  I‘ll ask the police chief LIVE & DIRECT what‘s going to happen to the looters caught in the act.  Those details are coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JAMES TELB, LUCAS COUNTY, OHIO, POLICE:  When the Nazis were asked to leave and given a short period of time to leave, they left.  The anger that was out there towards the Nazis turned towards the police.  And we need to know about that, what caused that, why, why that happened the way it did. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And Toledo is still reeling from a major riot believed to be sparked by neo-Nazis.  Neighborhood groups demonstrated against a neo-Nazi rally.  They turned violent this weekend.

But instead of their anger out of the racist protesters, they turned it on police and even some media trucks.  Joining us now on the phone is Police Chief Mike Navarre of Toledo, Ohio.  And also with us is Herbie Howard, whose convenience store was looted in the riot.

Let me first go to you, Chief.  Why did things get out of control so quickly? 

MIKE NAVARRE, TOLEDO, OHIO, POLICE CHIEF:  Well, a group of protesters began to gather early that morning prior to the arrival of the neo-Nazi group.  Once the neo-Nazis began to assemble and were in plain view of the counter-protesters, the individuals in that group began throwing rocks and bottles at the protesters, at the Nazis, and some of those at the police. 

Things got out of hand once we moved the Nazis to another location where they conducted a press conference.  They shifted the—the counter-protesters then shifted around the school and began to vandalize police vehicles. 

It was at that point that the rally was canceled.  There wasn‘t going to be a march.  And things began to escalate for several hours after that point.  A group of about 200 grew to about 600. 

COSBY:  Mr. Howard, first of all, your reaction to—your business was looted.  When did you find out? 

HERBIE HOWARD, CONVENIENCE STORE LOOTED IN RIOT:  I was called by telephone, and I immediately went to our site. 

COSBY:  How surprised were you?  Were you able to do any—did you ever imagine—did you take any preparations, thinking things could get out of hand? 

HOWARD:  Well, our site was not vandalized due to the Nazis.  Our site was vandalized due to the operator we mistakenly put at that location. 

He lacked communication skills for the people that are surrounding him.  And he‘s under eviction right now.  Some two-and-a-half months ago, three months ago, we initiated his eviction.  And my testimony in court was the victim then was basically looking for a way to save his life, because he...

COSBY:  Now, what are you saying, Mr. Howard?  Are you saying he provoked them? 

HOWARD:  He provoked—he‘s been provoking these kids for the last three years.  And we don‘t want to push the blame on anyone.  The real heroes in this whole episode were the mayor, the chief of police, the fire chief.  They came and put out the fire as quick as possible.  It could have been much worse than it was. 

However, with the great leadership we have with Toledo, when the going got tough, the tough got going.  And the mayor showed his true colors. 

He was right in with the crowd.  The chief of police, with his officers, the officers were the real heroes.  The Nazis got exactly what they wanted. 

Unfortunately, the kids—these weren‘t rioters.  I refer to them as kids.  The kids played right into their hands, and obviously they must have taken out their frustrations on the heroic police officers that were there to protect the...

COSBY:  Absolutely, Mr. Howard.  In fact, before we go, I just want to show a screen of—you know, despite all the -- 114 people were arrested, 12 police officers were injured.  So there were, you know, some who took injuries, and four businesses, including your own, was looted or damaged. 

Chief, thank you. 

And, Mr. Howard, thank you very much.  I‘m glad that you are safe and sound. 

And still ahead, everybody, just what you don‘t want to hear.  There‘s another big storm brewing in the Gulf of Mexico.  We‘re going to tell you where it‘s going, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, there was Katrina, and then there was Rita.  Not me, the hurricane. 

Now we have our eyes on a new tropical storm in the Caribbean, Wilma.  Right now, you can see the storm is barely moving.  But Wilma‘s sustained winds are around 50 miles an hour with gusts up to 70 miles per hour.  We‘re, of course, going to stay on top of Tropical Storm Wilma.  We‘ll tell you if it threatens the U.S.

And that does it for me here on LIVE & DIRECT.  Thanks for watching.  I‘m Rita Cosby.  My pal, Catherine Crier, from Court TV is in for “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” right next door, filling in.

Good to see you here, Catherine.

CATHERINE CRIER, MSNBC HOST:  Hello, Rita.  Thanks very much.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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