updated 10/26/2005 2:25:16 PM ET 2005-10-26T18:25:16

Guests: Sonny Hart, Lily Burana, Ed Steele, Jeffrey Gardere, Steven Greenberg, John Kokemor, Candice DeLong, Pam Bondi, Gerald Dompig, Drew Pinsky, Dave Holloway

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight‘s top headline:  A new investigation, a new search, and a new sense of justice may be served in Aruba.  We are going to be telling you why divers are back in the waters off Aruba, and we are going to be hearing live from the new top cop there and from Natalee‘s father, Dave Holloway, on the new information that could, could possibly lead to answers for Natalee‘s family. 

Then, a story too terrible to believe.  Were patients at some New Orleans hospitals intentionally killed in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?  The Louisiana attorney general tonight is looking into health care killings in the aftermath of that deadly storm.  And we are going to be talking to a doctor who was in the hospital who is now at the center of that investigation.  And I am going to ask him if physicians really killed their patients. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed. 

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, thanks a lot for being here tonight.  I really appreciate it. 

Now, we are going to get to all those stories in just a minute, and also, going to have new details on the investigation that is rocking the White House tonight.  A lot of people around Washington are asking whether the investigation‘s axe is going to fall some time tomorrow. 

And then Scott Dyleski, he is the kid that went from Boy Scout to an accused Goth killer in just two years.  We are going to have the very latest on that case.  We are also going to be talking to Dr. Drew Pinsky about this young man and other Goth teens, and he is going to talk about the one sign that you should be on the lookout for. 

Then, they are young.  They are pretty.  And they make beautiful music together.  But here‘s the catch.  Their lyrics preach white supremacy and hate.  We are going to find out how these 13-year-old twins could sing lovingly of Hitler henchmen Rudolf Hess. 

But, first, new developments in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  Tonight, there‘s a new clue, a fisherman‘s hut located just 200 feet from Natalee‘s hotel robbed the same night Natalee vanished, a knife and a fish trap stolen from those hunts.  Also, divers back in the waters off Aruba, using specific information from Aruban officials.

Some are asking, could all of this finally lead to a break in this case? 

With me right now on the phone from Aruba is Deputy Chief Gerald Dompig.  He‘s the new lead investigator in the case. 

Thank you so much for being with us tonight, Chief. 

I want to start with the first question.  There are a lot of people out there that have been following Deepak Kalpoe‘s supposed taped confession about how the three young men all had sex with Natalee the night she disappeared.  If, in fact, that‘s the case, and you have got that now in your hands, is that enough information to bring them back in, question them, and reopen the investigation? 

GERALD DOMPIG, ARUBAN DEPUTY CHIEF OF POLICE:  Well, at this moment, no, because we still have to have the tapes authenticated. 

We have sent one format, in a CD-ROM format, to already to Holland, as we speak.  They are right now in the hands of the Netherlands Forensic Institute.  And we expect to have the results in a couple of days.  We are also going to send to Holland one of these days, I expect tomorrow, if possible, hand-delivered, the VHS format tapes, which we received through the FBI.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, chief, you‘re obviously running this investigation now.  Do you have any questions as to whether these tapes may have been forged, or you think they are the real deal? 

DOMPIG:  Well, I still have doubts.

I—of course, you are always kind of suspicious when you are in law enforcement, and we want to make sure first if the tapes are for real.  And if they really are what they seem to be, then, of course, we will bring in Deepak for questioning. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s talk about the statement on that tape and the statement that they made to the police while they were in custody, while they were in the judicial system in Aruba.  If, in fact, these tapes are authenticated and this is Deepak admitting that he and the other two boys had sex with Natalee the night she vanished, is that inconsistent with the statements they told investigators, statements they said in the court system, and does that mean that they may be guilty of lying during this investigation? 

DOMPIG:  Yes, that is correct. 

If that is the case, then they at least have been lying to us.  And that will give us an indication that, if that also was a lie, then probably other stuff also was lied about.  And that will definitely give us some leeway to either get new warrants or searches or maybe even, at the end, new arrests. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, if you—you have got statements, again, right now from Deepak Kalpoe, again, that needs to be authenticated.  We can‘t stress that enough. 

But is it possible that, even though Joran van der Sloot has said that he did nothing with Natalee that night, that those arrests could include Joran van der Sloot, as well as the two Kalpoe brothers? 

DOMPIG:  Well, of course, you can never exclude that.

But we want to go step by step.  So, first, authenticate the tapes, and, if that‘s OK, then bring in first Kalpoe, Deepak, for questioning, and take it from there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, Beth—Beth—Holloway Twitty talked about these fishing huts that were broken into.  When we were in her home in Birmingham, Alabama, this past week, she talked about fishing huts that had been broken into and some stuff that had been taken from there that she thinks needs to be investigated.  Do you have any concerns about that?  Do you think that that may lead to new information in this investigation? 

DOMPIG:  Well, that‘s basically the reason why we are looking at the ocean right now, because, although we don‘t have an official statement or declaration that a fishing trap has been missing, there are enough rumors out there that we—lead us to believe that maybe that is the case. 

You should understand that these fish traps are—some of these fishermen have like 200, 100 to 200 of these fish traps, so they might not miss one. 

What is officially reported as stolen, though, is a big knife, and out of one of the fisher—fisherman‘s huts or—yes, where they keep their stuff, you could say.  And that‘s the basis for us to search in the ocean. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much, Deputy Chief Gerald Dompig.  We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. 

Let‘s move now to Natalee‘s father, Dave Holloway.  He has been in Aruba all week.  He is there tonight, and he joins us on the phone. 

Dave, thanks so much for being back with us again.

I will tell you, the difference between this new investigator and the investigator who is friends with the van der Sloots seems like the difference between night and day.  This guy actually seems very aggressive, like he wants to get to the bottom of the story.  You and your family have to be somewhat pleased that this investigation is finally, it seems to me, taking on a new life. 

DAVE HOLLOWAY, FATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  It is.

And I am very pleased with Dompig‘s actions.  I am just hoping that what he is saying, we can put action behind it and get some resolution.  I went today to speak with the public, on public television, and pleaded with the people to please give us any information that might resolve this case, and if that one person could come forward, this case could be resolved today. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, no doubt about it. 

Now, Dave, let‘s talk about fathers.  Obviously, you are a father that suffered a tremendous loss here.  But Paulus van der Sloot is now actually demanding that he gets a letter from Aruban authorities saying that his son is off the hook and can never be investigated again on this case. 

How does that make you feel, knowing that this is the same guy that told his son and the other two boys, if there‘s no body, there‘s no crime? 

HOLLOWAY:  You know, I just heard about that today.  And I am a little bit surprised.  Since this investigation is continuing, I would think that the prosecutor would need to get involved in making that decision. 

SCARBOROUGH:  No doubt about it. 

I want to ask you a personal question.  Saturday, obviously, would have been Natalee‘s 19th birthday.  I am wondering, how did you spend that day?  Did you do anything special, say anything special prayers?  How difficult was it for you? 

HOLLOWAY:  Well, it was very difficult. 

In fact, her birthday was the 21st, which would have been Friday.  And, you know, we—we kind of looked at it this way.  In a split family, maybe we would put it off for some other day.  And you kind of put it in the back of your mind.  And, yes, I still thought about it, but, you know, you just can‘t, you know, dwell on it a whole lot.  So, you just kind of put it on the back burner and say, you know, we will celebrate it some other day. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And you just feel like you are still in the middle of this fight for justice for Natalee, I guess, also, that now is not the time to—to slow down or possibly break down.  That will come later?  Is that basically how you are feeling? 

HOLLOWAY:  Well, my first goal is to find my daughter, and then the second, of course, would be the justice aspect of it.

But, you know, my first and foremost deal was to come down here and find my daughter, and I am committed to doing that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And there‘s a new search going on out there, obviously, in the ocean.  You feel positive about that? 

HOLLOWAY:  Well, for the first time, the police has directed us to a specific area.  And that‘s what we are doing.  We came down here with the initial plans of preplanning to search the dump area.

And when we got here, we were redirected to possibly search out in the ocean.  And we just said, hey, we will just go ahead and extend it and get some people in here and start that process.  And that‘s what we are doing now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Dave, final question. 

I had—I had asked Beth last week whether she would support a boycott of Aruba if they didn‘t step forward and really begin an aggressive investigation and bring justice to this case.  How do you feel about the possibility of Americans standing shoulder to shoulder with you and your family in boycotting Aruba if they don‘t fight for justice for Natalee? 

HOLLOWAY:  Well, that‘s something that I have put off for quite some time.  And I am still involved in this case, and I still think that we still have the opportunity to settle it and resolve it.  And that‘s why I am down here, working with the police department, hoping that we can come to resolution. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

Dave, thanks so much.  And, listen, good luck down there.  Obviously, our thoughts and prayers stay with you.  I am just happy that not only are you working with the police department, but now, for the first time in this investigation, it looks like the police department is beginning to work with you and your family.  Let‘s hope it continues. 

Right now, let‘s bring in Florida prosecutor Pam Bondi and former FBI profiler Candice DeLong.  She‘s the author of “Special Agent.”

Candice, listen, obviously, the trail has gone cold a long time ago.  But it does sound like there is a new investigator.  There is a new urgency to this case.  It looks like somebody may finally be getting some answers.  Is it to little too late? 

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Not if they find something.  But let‘s not forget that, since this whole thing started, around May 1, all of these three boys, or young men—I hesitate to call them boys—have been arrest and charged and then released. 

So, where they talk about, we can do it again, we can pick them up, not unless they have something good, and it has to be pretty good this time if they are going to be able to hold onto them. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Pam, it seems to me, the difference is, the last time where they were there, a lot of people believed that they were coddled while they were inside the jail because Paulus van der Sloot and the chief of police were good friends, very close friends, according to reports. 

Now there‘s a new investigator in there.  He seems pretty tough.  Could that make the difference, if they lean on these boys more?  Would they go into jail, and maybe they can get a confession from somebody? 

PAM BONDI, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR:  Certainly, certainly. 

Having a fresh new investigator look at a case is always good, especially, Joe, when it‘s been pending this long.  And I think it‘s good that they didn‘t jump the gun and bring Deepak back in and question him when they haven‘t authenticated the tapes yet.  You know, that shows they are being cautious, they are doing the right thing.

And, as Candice said, it could be a big mistake if they bring them in a second time and don‘t have anything on them, so I think they are doing the right thing.  And, you know, you got to commend the Holloway family and Beth Twitty for keeping this case alive and putting subtle pressure on the authorities down there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, Pam, again, again, I think the key here is a lot of people are saying, why don‘t they just give up?  But you got three young men, or boys—I would call them boys—you got three boys down there.  Isn‘t it possible that one of them will crack, one of them will give an inconsistent statement, one of them will eventually turn on the others? 

BONDI:  Certainly.  And the more they talk, the more likelihood of an inconsistent statement coming out, just what we saw.  If these tapes are authenticated, it could be a huge break in the case, absolutely, Joe.

And, you know, you can‘t give up, and that‘s what‘s so frustrating when you are a prosecutor or when you are in law enforcement, when you just know it‘s out there, and you know that these people are involved in it, but you can‘t prove it.  And you have to have proof to back things up, other than just inconsistent statements, but that would be a great start. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And I will tell you what.  There has to be—I mean, it is so frustrating, because everybody seems to know that one of these three or all three were responsible. 

Pam, thanks a lot. 

Candice, stay with us. 

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up next, we got a SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY exclusive, one of the doctors who was inside a New Orleans hospital that is now under investigation.  We are going to get the real story on allegations of mercy killings during Katrina. 

That‘s next. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  The Bush White House tonight, along with the rest of Washington, on the edge, waiting for word of possible indictments in the CIA leak case. 

It could happen at any moment, and it has the potential of being a bombshell in Washington, D.C.

I am joined now by MSNBC analyst Pat Buchanan. 

You know, Pat, I was about to say, I am joined now by a man who knows a lot about White House scandals, but I decided to pull back. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  But you are the guy to go to here.  You have been communication director while there‘s—things have been blowing up left and right.  This—is it overstating it to say this may be a White House on the brink, if Libby and Rove get indicted in the next couple days? 

PAT BUCHANAN, NBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  Look, it would be deadly serious for the White House, but this is not Watergate. 

None of these things goes directly to the president of the United States.  The bad news in the last day, Joe, is, it appears that there‘s a conflict in testimony between the vice president and his chief of staff.  And this vice president is the strongest we have ever had.  He is as close to the president, he is as central figure in administration as any vice president I can think of.  And, if he has got problems, then the president and the administration have real problems. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you got Cheney.  Then you have got Rove, I mean, two guys who just exercise extraordinary influence over every phase of this White House. 

If both of these guys are tied up in investigations, it‘s got to be bad news.  Now, you said it‘s not Watergate.  Is it possibly on the level of, say, an Iran-Contra? 

BUCHANAN:  Well, Iran-Contra went right to Ronald Reagan‘s credibility.  That was the problem. 

He had apparently done something that he said this country ought not to do, and that was his most vital asset.  The president doesn‘t have a problem personally now.  There‘s no doubt, you lose Rove and you lose Libby, that‘s a tremendous loss, but it‘s not the equivalent of Haldeman and Erlichman.  

SCARBOROUGH:  But George W. Bush is still clean.  He is still insulated from this.  So, again, you can‘t compare it to these other scandals. 

Take us inside the White House right now.  What are they going through? 

BUCHANAN:  They are braced for a Category 2 hurricane some time tomorrow or Thursday.  There‘s apprehension.  If you go over to the EOB, they will be talking quietly in their offices:  Who else do you think they are going after?  Who do you think talked? 

I think—I will bet Mr. Libby, who is probably on the vice president‘s second floor of that EOB, I mean, he is almost among the walking dead, I think, he must be looked at today.  And they are very apprehensive, Joe, and a lot of people probably had to testify.  Secretaries and others have been other there, staff aides, people from the outside.  So, it is a very apprehensive place, and they are waiting for it to hit. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Pat, what do you make of George Tenet, former CIA director, talking to Dick Cheney, passing the information on to him?  Any concerns there? 

DELONG:  Yes, well, Tenet tells Cheney that it was Wilson and his wife who did it, you know, who were the ones that—that were involved in this investigation, and the wife sent him.  And then the vice president tells Libby apparently.

And then Tenet, when the thing leaks out, goes and tells the attorney

general, we need this investigated.  He is investigating the vice

president‘s office, basically, on information he gave to them.  So, this is

they are going to have to have some—clarify the positions of the two of them, Tenet and Cheney, because I believe Tenet has said he didn‘t tell Cheney, and Mr. Libby‘s note said, the vice president told him, Tenet told me. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I will tell you what.  It is a slippery, slippery situation.  Pat Buchanan, we are going to be in Washington, D.C., tomorrow following it.  Look forward to seeing you there.  Thanks for being with us tonight. 

BUCHANAN:  We will see you there, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

Turning now to an investigation that we have been following for several weeks, were patients at New Orleans hospitals and nursing homes victims of mercy killings as Hurricane Katrina‘s storm surge slammed into that troubled city? 

That‘s a claim that‘s been made by at least one hospital employee, and right now, Louisiana‘s attorney general, Charles Foti, is investigating these explosive charges.  The attorney general has refused repeated requests to come on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to talk about his investigation.

But, tonight, we welcome John Kokemor.  He is a physician from one of the hospitals in question.  He spent the darkest days of Hurricane Katrina desperately trying to save patients at Memorial Medical Center in New Orleans. 

Doctor, thank you for being with us.  We are going to get to the investigation in a second. 

I want you, first of all, though to set the scene inside of your hospital.  While New Orleans was being flooded, while bodies were floating around, while sewage was pouring into the city, what were you and other doctors and health care providers going through? 

DR. JOHN KOKEMOR, MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER:  Well, during the hurricane, windows were breaking.  The metal was creaking, and the buildings were vibrating. 

Our maintenance staff was able to carry plywood up the stairs and board up the windows, which barely held out the rainwater.  Also, that was very frightening to see and witness that.  Our power went out early on the morning of the 29th, and we lost air conditioning, lost elevators.  And so, panic was...

SCARBOROUGH:  It was just—it was mass chaos, a panicked situation.

And now, of course, you have got the investigation going on, the attorney general looking into these charges that health care providers may have killed patients, so-called mercy killings.  Can you tell us tonight, did you see any mercy killings?  Did you hear anybody talk about the possibility of killing patients to put them out of their misery? 

KOKEMOR:  At no time did I hear any conversations or witness any acts of mercy killing. 

The only thing I witnessed was intense dedication to duty on the part of all of the hospital staff and management team that were present at the hospital.  We got...

SCARBOROUGH:  What about this hospital employee that talked about the possibility of people talking about mercy killings? 

KOKEMOR:  I have no idea where he is coming from, to be perfectly honest with you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, were there any meetings?  Again, there was a talk about possible meetings.  Were there any meetings where you all were talking about that, if things got worse, you may have to decide who would live and who would die, if you had only a certain amount of medical supplies or power or other items? 

KOKEMOR:  Absolutely, positively not. 

The meetings were organizational meetings to assign units to different physicians to assist in the—with the nurses and the patients‘ care.  We were also caring for numerous visitors.  We had approximately 1,800 lives in the hospital that we were responsible for.  That includes the 215 patients. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Dr. John Kokemor, thanks so much for being with us and clarifying the situation. 

We are going to be following the case closely, and, also, the attorney general‘s investigation.  The attorney general still has an open invitation to join me on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to talk about these charges. 

And I want to thank the good doctor.  So many people abandoned their posts.  There were so many people that lacked really character when Hurricane Katrina crashed in.  There was a lack of leadership, not only publicly, but also from private people.  God bless the doctor and other health care providers in New Orleans who stuck it out and helped those who were helpless in their time of greatest need. 

Now, coming up next, when is going Goth harmless, and when could it lead to something much worse?  We are going to be looking at the clues about accused killer Scott Dyleski that could have been a hint that he could become violent. 

And then twin sisters making beautiful music, but they‘re singing about white supremacy and a tribute to a Nazi killer. 

We are going to have that very disturbing story coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up, two innocent fresh-faced teens singing songs

that teach white supremacy, and they also sing love songs to Nazi butchers

that story coming up when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY continues.

But, first, here‘s the latest news you and your family need to know. 

(NEWS BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Young, pretty singers are nothing new, but these girls aren‘t singing love songs.  They are singing about songs that preach white supremacy.  Are their parents teaching these children well?  Of course not.  Should they be taken away from them?  Well, that‘s the SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY showdown. 

Then, last night, we told you about the businessman accused of spending more than $200,000 in a topless bar.  Tonight, the fallout.  Will he be stripped of his job?  And is this business as usual for high-rolling corporate types? 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY—those stories in just minutes.

And, by the way, I noticed in the news break that we have now crossed

and I have been seeing it all day—we have now crossed the 2,000 plateau, of 2,000 killed in Iraq.  Well, you know what?  If it‘s a noble cause, those are terrible, terrible sacrifices, but, at the same time, it bears repeating that we lost 2,000 men, 2,000 heroes in the first hours of D-Day back in 1944.  You don‘t hear that. 

But, first, we are going to be talking about new details in the brutal murder of Pamela Vitale 10 days ago.  Goth teen Scott Dyleski, who is going to be turning 17 on Sunday, obviously is in custody tonight, but, in two short years, Dyleski turned from a happy Boy Scout to a troubled teen, accused of murder. 

So, what could cause this troubling transformation?  Where are the signs? 

Well, I am joined now by addictionologist Drew Pinsky.  He‘s author of “Cracked: Putting Broken Lives Together Again,” also criminal defense attorney Steven Greenberg.  And former FBI Agent Candice DeLong is back with me.

Drew Pinsky, I got to start with you right now.  We showed a picture of Scott after.  We didn‘t show you the picture of Scott before, two years earlier when he was a Boy Scout.  Look at that picture.  How does that happen? 

DR. DREW PINSKY, AUTHOR, “CRACKED”:  Well, it‘s sad, but I would suggest to you that before there was that dramatic external transformation, there were signs of trouble long before you see that picture far on the right there.

But, in my experience, you know, we have a lot of people sort of dismissing teen behavior as sort of acting out and phases and whatnot, but when they start painting their fingernails black or painting their—dyeing their hair black, becoming—wearing all black, that‘s a very bad sign.

At very minimum, it‘s a sing of depression.  But it‘s also usually a sign of what we call oppositional defiance disorder or antisocial personality disorder.  It‘s a very serious sign.  It really needs to be taken seriously.  And, if it isn‘t, horrible things like what have happened here can certainly occur. 

I will tell you, the one thing I have noticed, and I don‘t know why this is the case, but when you see the fingernail polish go black, that‘s one of the worst signs, and it usually means opiate addiction in addition. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Really?

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY:  Yes.  I don‘t know why that is, but I see it.  I see it over and over again.

SCARBOROUGH:  You have seen that, though, in your practice.  Obviously, you have got a very active practice.  You have been doing this for years, so if parents see their children go to the black fingernail polish, you say that not only suggests depression; it also suggests drug abuse? 

PINSKY:  In my experience.  Well, I ask will parents.  They come to me saying, oh, my kid is dressing Goth.  I say, look, this is a very serious sign.  We need to get it evaluated, but let me ask you, what about the fingernails?  Is it purple or is it black? 

And when it‘s black, I am just—I have just observed this over and over again—it usually means they are using opiates.  I have no idea why that happens, but that association, in my experience, has almost always been there.  I don‘t know why. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Candice, you talked to Mr. Horowitz the day before he found his wife.  Talk about that meeting. 

DELONG:  We were on Court TV together, and we were commenting on the Polk case, the case that was recently—you know, Dan was the head defense attorney, and it was declared a mistrial after this tragedy. 

One of the—Dan was talking to me about his wife for the first time, just briefly, and he was talking about her in such a way that you could tell he was excited just talking about her, and it made me—I said to myself, this is a man that is still in love, in love with his wife, and I thought perhaps they were even newlyweds, and I was surprised that hear that they had been married 11, 12, 13 years.  And, only 12 hours later, she was murdered. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And what an absolute terrible discovery that he made in the next couple of days. 

Do you also, as a profiler, former profiler, do you look at these Goth characters as potential time bombs, waiting to explode? 

DELONG:  Well, they can be.  It‘s certainly a subculture within the teen world.  It‘s not a group that a lot of teens want to identify with.

But I would venture that this kid, Scott, was considered creepy in Goth circles.  He is way, way over the top.  And I agree with the gentleman before me, be—saying, there were signs of trouble long before the picture on the right.  The way he committed the crime, the things that he did to the victim indicate a very, very disturbed person.  It also shows a great deal of fantasy. 

This isn‘t something that happened at that moment and it had never occurred to him before to do it, I don‘t think. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Steven Greenberg, you have been involved with these Goth types before in court.  Talk about it, and talk about the warning signs and what it could lead to. 

STEVEN GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Well, usually, when you have got these kinds of individuals, they are so withdrawn, and they have suffered some kind of personal trauma or loneliness that they have withdrawn into.  You don‘t know what‘s going on in their minds, and I agree with the doctor, that there‘s probably other signs that were there beforehand. 

The Gothism is just one of the manifestations, whether it‘s Gothism, satanism, neo-Nazism, or any other kind of an offshoot, anti-social group.  And you have to look at all of the different factors to see what‘s going on.  Clearly, this is a very disturbed child who has chosen to manifest his mental state, his disturbed state in a violent way.  I don‘t know that you can say that it‘s associated with his Goth beliefs, because you don‘t see a lot of violence in the Goth culture, per state. 

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY:  Yes. 

GREENBERG:  I don‘t know about this business about black fingernails.  I know lots of people over the years I have dealt who were on opiates and aren‘t—don‘t have black fingernails at all.  So...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Dr. Drew, let me...

PINSKY:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Obviously, there are people involved in opiates that don‘t wear it.

PINSKY:  Of course.

SCARBOROUGH:  But, Dr. Drew, I want to ask you, a lot of people—about the sister.  A lot of people said that, when his sister passed away, died in a tragic car accident, that that was the breaking point.  But is that also friends and relatives looking for excuses? 

PINSKY:  Yes, I mean, they want to brush it off on depression, but I agree with Mr., I think, Greenberg there, that history of abuse, history of trauma is really what you see in most of these kids. 

Now, whether or not they become extremely ill or not is sort of depending on the individual case.  But it‘s a symptom, as we are describing it.  All of us are agreeing.  This is a symptom.  And if you know kids like this, you want to look into whether or not they need more serious intervention.  And, oftentimes, they do. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thanks so much, Dr. Drew Pinsky, as always.

Steven Greenberg and Candice DeLong, greatly appreciate you being with us. 

I am joined by Tucker Carlson right now, host of “THE SITUATION WITH

TUCKER CARLSON.” 

Tucker, what‘s the situation tonight in Washington, D.C.? 

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON”:  Well, yes, that‘s right, Joe.  We are back in Washington tonight to cover the CIA leak story.  And I just can‘t even tell you the things that we are hearing.  I literally can‘t tell you because they are rumors at this stage. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Come on. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  ... tell me. 

CARLSON:  But Washington is just about to explode. 

Well, let me put it this way.  I think there‘s a chance, probably a strong chance, that, some time during our show, from 11:00 to midnight Eastern, we will know whether an indictment is going to be handed down tomorrow.  It is boiling at that level right now.  The case is still being investigated.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Tucker, we are hearing a lot about Scooter Libby. 

CARLSON:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  A week ago, all we were hearing about was Karl Rove.  Whatever happened to the possibility of the Karl Rove indictment?  Is he out of the woods now? 

CARLSON:  Well, that is one of the many rumors that we are hearing.  That is one of the many.  And ,at this point, they are all unconfirmed, but together, I think they add up to the likelihood that we will know for certain very soon. 

We do know this.  The special counsel, the special prosecutor, is still working, still investigating this case.  Today, just a few hours ago, he sent the chief FBI agent in charge of the investigation out to Washington to a neighborhood to interview neighbors of Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, the CIA officer whose name was revealed in Bob Novak‘s column.  We are going to have one of those neighbors on the show tonight and ask him, what did the FBI ask you?

And I think that will give us some insight into what the charges may be. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Thanks a lot, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Thanks, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Greatly appreciate it. 

Make sure you tune into “THE SITUATION” coming up at 11:00.  As Tucker said, may have breaking developments over the next hour in this case, may find out who is getting indicted.  And, as soon as we find out, we will let you know. 

Coming up, new developments in a story we brought you last night.  Coming up, the latest on the man who spent a quarter of a million dollars in New York at a topless club.  He claims it was on corporate business.  We are going to be talking to people who know that business very well. 

But, first, they are a popular duo who like being compared to the Olsen twins.  Only, these sisters are singing songs of racism.  Is their freedom of speech infringing on the rights of others?  Is it bad parenting?  Should they be taken away from their parents?  That‘s the SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY showdown tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  They‘re 13-year-old twins with blonde hair, blue hairs, and they hail from Bakersfield, California.  They have got a cult following across the U.S. and on the Internet. 

Some have tried to compare them to the Olsen twins, but Lamb and Lynx Gaede, known as Prussian Blue, are the angelic face of America‘s white supremacist movement.  The teen white power duo is recording their second record and spreading their message across America. 

And with me now to talk about it are Ed Steele.  He‘s the attorney and spokesperson for Prussian Blue.  And we also have Dr. Jeffrey Gardere.  He‘s a criminal psychologist and author of “Smart Parenting for African-Americans.”

Let me start with you, Ed Steele.  Talk about these young women.  To a lot of us, it sounds like hate speech.  Is that a fair characterization of their songs? 

ED STEELE, ATTORNEY FOR PRUSSIAN BLUE:  Well, given the way that you teed it up, it certainly does sound that way.  Your describing them as white supremacists would support that as well. 

We take issue with all of that.  They are not white supremacists.  They are not haters.  You want to hear hate in music lyrics, I have got some here I would like to read you.  I also have all of Lamb and Lynx‘s song lyrics here.  And you show me one place in their songs where they are preaching hate, because I don‘t see it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Well, what about—well, we are showing right now smiley faces.  It looks like Hitler smiley faces.  I don‘t know.  I think promoting a movement that killed six million Jews is probably not a positive role model.  Also, they have basically a love song to Rudolf Hess. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  I mean, is Rudolf Hess somebody who is a lover? 

STEELE:  Those are some pretty gross assumptions you just made. 

I have seen the T-shirts that you are talking about.  I think they are really cute.

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes?

STEELE:  I would like one for myself.  And I‘m no fan of Adolf Hitler‘s by the way.  I‘d like that little smiley face.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  You would like that T-shirt?  That‘s cute to you? 

STEELE:  I think it‘s—because I think it‘s funny.  That doesn‘t mean I am a fan of Adolf Hitler‘s. 

Now, because they said something positive about Rudolf Hess in one of their songs doesn‘t mean that they are haters either.  Rudolf Hess—most people don‘t know this—flew into Britain in an attempt early on in the world to attempt to broker a peace agreement.  And he was imprisoned by the Britons for the rest of the war.

So, in a very real sense, he did try to go on a peace mission, and the word is that he did it behind Hitler‘s back. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Jeffrey Gardere, what is your take on this? 

JEFFREY GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST:  Well, listen, from what I know of these young girls, they are preaching hate. 

All the information that I have been given, everything that I have read, it is about hate.  I think it‘s a very unhealthy situation for girls, twin girls, 13 years old, to be indoctrinated in learning how to despise other people, learning how to despise races and religions.  And it‘s just not healthy psychologically, and, certainly, I think that‘s something that everyone does realize. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, I read in an article somewhere that the father, actually, I believe—I want to get this right—brands cattle with a swastika. 

The mother says that it‘s all about free speech. 

Doctor, do they have a right to say and sing whatever they want to say and sing? 

GARDERE:  Well, I am not an attorney, but I would think, of course, they are protected by the First Amendment.  But then I would also have to assert, as a psychologist who works with very young children, I have seen parents who certainly have been very neglectful in working with their children, who have abused their children emotionally.

And I see the same situation here.  I think this is a case of neglect and abuse, and the mother should be charged, and I am saying that on the record. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Look, I want to show this video of them performing.  They are obviously very popular, Ed Steele, in certain areas.  What do you think their supporters would think of recommendations that they be taken away from their parents or that charges be brought against the parents? 

STEELE:  I think that they would that that kind of allegation that we just heard from the good doctor is ridiculous and based on nothing. 

We didn‘t hear one single thing from him that he bases his opinion on.  Now, they have songs in which they preach white pride, which means being proud of your ancestry, not being ashamed of being white.  In America today, if you don‘t participate in your own demise, if you don‘t participate in putting down white people, if you don‘t participate in putting white people to the back of the line, then you are deemed a racist, and because these girls refuse to do that sort of thing, they are called racists and haters.

But there‘s no hate in everything they have ever done or said.  They are not supremacists either.  Now, interestingly enough...

GARDERE:  You know what?  I agree with Ed Steele.

I really do agree that these girls probably are not haters.  And I think, at 13 years old, we can‘t hold them responsible for these types of beliefs.  But it has to go back to the parents, and the parents need to be held responsible, because they are limiting the potential of these young girls.  We talked a little bit before about Scott Dyleski. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  When you say the parents have to be held responsible, would you take them away? 

GARDERE:  I don‘t know if that would be productive at this point, but I think the parents should be held to task for teaching them very negative beliefs. 

We spoke about Scott Dyleski a few minutes ago.  And Dr. Drew Pinsky, certainly a renowned psychiatrist, said, hey, you have someone who was showing antisocial behaviors, and we should have seen the signals. 

Well, the parents are teaching these kids how to hate.  The signals are there.  These kids are at risk for depression, for alcoholism, for antisocial behaviors, not being able to get along with others. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

STEELE:  It‘s a bad scene for these girls. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Doctor, thank you for being with us. 

Ed Steele, thank you so much for being with us.

And, as far as I am concerned, when it comes to the parents, any parent that would allow their children to wear smiley faces with a likeness of Adolf Hitler on there, I think they have got serious problems.  And I think Ed has got a serious problem, too, if he thinks making light of a man who exterminated six million Jews in the most horrible way, the most horrendous way, that, somehow, that‘s funny. 

Coming up next, there—I will tell you what, friends.  There‘s a problem in corporate America, CEOs gone wild, new details in the case of a businessman who dropped nearly a quarter million bucks on a visit to a strip club.  Is it business as usual?  You are going to find out.  You are going to met two insiders.  We are going to find out about this one CEO gone wild that may have just gone out of his job.

We will tell you about that and much more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  The story gets dumber by the minute, folks. 

Robert McCormick, the CEO who allegedly spent a quarter of a million dollars at Scores strip club in Manhattan, is now on unpaid leave from his company.  Now, he maintains he spent a mere $20,000 at Scores on the night in question on strippers. 

A Scores spokesperson says they have authorization for all the charges for $250,000, almost a quarter of a million dollars.  But is this kind of night on the town business as usual for businessmen and high rollers? 

With me now to talk about it, Lily Burana.  She‘s a former stripper

and author of the book, “Strip City.”  And by phone, we have former bouncer

a former bouncer from Scores, Sonny Hart. 

Lily, let me begin with you.

We heard last night that, for a lot of businessmen, they have given up the golf course and instead are going to places like Scores.  Is that the case these days? 

LILY BURANA, AUTHOR, “STRIP CITY”:  I don‘t think that they have swapped out golfing and fishing as a means of networking, but they have certainly supplemented it with trips to high-end gentlemen‘s clubs, absolutely, especially within the last 10 years. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, what is the deal?  So, you got some businessman that is trying to land a big deal.  And what does he do?  He comes in trying to look like a hot shot?  And what do they start doing, just tossing cash around to strippers to come over and service their clients? 

BURANA:  Well, first this guy apparently started by renting out a private suite that costs $4,000 an hour, and then it escalated from there. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Why do you rent out a private suite?  What goes on in the private suite? 

BURANA:  Largely, it‘s a matter of entitlement.  You do it just because you can.  You don‘t get any special services in there that you don‘t get on the main floor of the club, but you do get to show your cronies that you have got enough game to get behind closed doors. 

And they mark up their alcohol in the way that any major nightclub will do.  And chances are, if he did indeed spend as much money as is alleged, he was—the bulk amount of that money went to tipping the dancers extravagant sums for a lap dance. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I was just going to ask, what in the world can you buy here for $250,000 at one night at a strip club? 

BURANA:  Well, you can either spend $100,000 on a cigar, and then the rest, God knows, or you can end up getting 100 table dances and tipping each girl a couple thousand bucks apiece. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Have you ever seen anything like that, Lily? 

BURANA:  Have I seen anything like that?  I have, certainly not on this scale.  I think the nickname lap dunce is richly earned, if he did, indeed, spend that much money. 

(LAUGHTER)

BURANA:  I have certainly seen—I mean, we have got this guy looking like a bug-eyed goon in every newspaper across the country.

And he‘s on unpaid leave from his job.  And he probably went through the threshold of Scores thinking he was getting the ultimate white-collar businessman‘s fantasy, and ended up in the middle of a nightmare.  It just goes to show you that testosterone and alcohol and a charge card is a very dangerous mix. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Very, very dangerous, indeed.  And there are a lot of idiots out there like that, in his defense. 

Steve Hart, let‘s bring you in here.

You have been behind the scenes at Scores.  Does this type of extravagant big spending surprise you? 

SONNY HART, FORMER SCORES BOUNCER:  It‘s not so much a surprise as it is kind of shocking that people have that kind of money to throw away. 

Obviously, he was there on business, I would assume, and he was probably trying to impress the people he was with as well.  And it got out of hand, which can happen very easily in these clubs. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Is that what these guys do is—again, like I asked Lily, do they bring in their buddies, they try to act like the big shot and high roller, and throw money around, so they can get as many women around them as possible to do lap dances, and whatever else goes on in there? 

HART:  Sure.  It‘s all about fantasy.  That‘s what these clubs provide, a fantasy for everybody who goes there and participates in some of the fun that goes on. 

He obviously got wrapped up in the night.  And that happens.  You are talking about beautiful women.  You are talking about alcohol, sports on TV.  It‘s a man‘s fantasy. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Sex go on in those clubs? 

HART:  It‘s not supposed to.  I have never actually seen it or witnessed it firsthand, but, you know, you hear urban legends.

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s not supposed to.  Yes, urban legends.  Come on. 

It‘s not supposed to, but it happens, right? 

HART:  I would assume it‘s happened to some people at some clubs, but I don‘t think it‘s something that goes on all the time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you think this guy could have paid for sex that night? 

HART:  I would only be assuming that he paid for sex at that club.  But, to be honest with you, I could see him spending that kind of money if he was entertaining. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You saw a guy shoot through $30,000, didn‘t you, Sonny? 

HART:  Yes.  I saw a guy spend $30,000 on a Sunday early in the evening.  In a matter of hours, he had spent $30,000. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Unbelievable. 

Hey, Sonny Hart, Lily, thank you so much for being with us.  We greatly appreciate it. 

I will tell you, it is an inside look.  And you can look at—read Lily‘s book to get an inside look at this industry, at a—just a really surprising trend. 

We will be right back in a second with more SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s all the time we have for tonight.  “THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON” starts right now, live in Washington, D.C., where some news may be breaking—Tucker. 

CARLSON:  That‘s right, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What‘s the situation at this hour?

CARLSON:  There are many.  And they‘re complicated.  Thanks, Joe. 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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