>> Williams: AND TO ALL THOSE OF YOU JOINING US HERE AT nbcnews.com ON THE WEB, WE WELCOME YOU. WE HAVE NOW SEATED OURSELVES WITH PART OF OUR PANEL OF EXPERTS -- CORRESPONDENTS, FORMER GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO ARE NOW OF COUNSEL TO US. WE HAVE PETE WILLIAMS HERE AT THE TABLE, OUR LONGTIME JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT. WE HAVE ANDREA MITCHELL HERE AT THE TABLE, OUR CHIEF FOREIGN-AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT. WE HAVE MICHAEL LEITER HERE THE TABLE, WHO IS THE FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER UNDER BOTH PRESIDENT BUSH AND PRESIDENT OBAMA. WITH US VIA SATELLITE, WE HAVE CHUCK TODD, OUR CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT AND POLITICAL DIRECTOR. AND WE HAVE FORMER AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA MICHAEL McFAUL. HE IS OUT AT STANFORD, WHERE HE�S A PROFESSOR THESE DAYS, HAVING DISCOVERED THE PRIVATE SECTOR. FORMER MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY STAFF AT THE WHITE HOUSE. AND, AMBASSADOR, MAYBE YOU ARE A GOOD PLACE TO START, VIS-�-VIS WHAT YOU HEARD SNOWDEN SAY ABOUT RUSSIA, ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN. WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU?
>> McFaul: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, BRIAN, I LEARNED A LOT. AND I LOOK FORWARD TO THE CONVERSATION HERE. I HAD NOT LISTENED TO MR. SNOWDEN FOR AN HOUR AT ANY TIME, ANYWHERE ELSE, OBVIOUSLY. IT WAS INTERESTING FOR ME, BECAUSE I REMEMBER THE DAY HE ARRIVED IN MOSCOW, WHEN I WAS STILL THE AMBASSADOR. I GUESS A COUPLE OF THINGS JUMPED OUT TO ME. AND I WROTE THEM DOWN. WHEN YOUR DISCUSSION ABOUT WHY MOSCOW -- WHY WAS HE THERE -- AND I NOTE THE PASSIVE TENSE -- THE STRUCTURE OF THE SENTENCE. RIGHT? "I WAS STOPPED IN MOSCOW." BUT HE WASN�T STOPPED IN HONG KONG, WITH THE SAME STATUS WITH HIS PASSPORT. I REMEMBER THAT VERY VIVIDLY. AND SO, WHEN HE�S ASKING, "WELL, ASK THE STATE DEPARTMENT," I USED TO WORK FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT WHEN HE SHOWED UP IN MOSCOW. I FOUND THAT VERY MYSTERIOUS. WELL, IF THEY LET HIM GET ON THE PLANE IN HONG KONG WITHOUT A VALID PASSPORT, WHY WAS HE FORBIDDEN FROM GOING ON? AND WHO WAS FORBIDDING HIM, RIGHT? RUSSIA�S A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY. LET ME TELL YOU, TWO YEARS LIVING THERE AS THE AMBASSADOR, THEY DO THINGS THEIR OWN WAY. THEY ABIDE BY THEIR OWN RULES AND THEIR OWN LAWS. AND IF THEY WANT TO GIVE HIM THE ABILITY TO FLY ON TO HAVANA, THEY MOST CERTAINLY COULD HAVE DONE THAT. SO THAT WAS THE FIRST PIECE THAT STRUCK ME. THE SECOND PIECE THAT STRUCK ME WAS HIS DISCUSSION ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GOVERNMENT. I WROTE DOWN THAT HE SAID, "I HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP TO THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT." WELL, THAT�S JUST NOT TRUE. YOU DON�T GET TO GET ON A CALL-ON SHOW WITH THE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA AND HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP WITH THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT. AND BY THE WAY, JUST TO REMIND YOU, ON THAT CALL-IN SHOW, HE ASKED -- I THOUGHT, SOMEWHAT NAIVELY -- "MR. PUTIN -- PRESIDENT PUTIN -- DO YOU LISTEN IN TO TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS OF RUSSIAN CITIZENS?" HE TOLD YOU, "I KNOW THEY HAVE A VERY PROFESSIONAL SERVICE." SO THAT�S RATHER STRANGE TO SAY YOU HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GOVERNMENT, YET THAT KIND OF INTERACTION HAPPENED. AND I WOULD JUST REMIND YOUR LISTENERS THAT HIS LAWYER, WHEN HE FIRST ARRIVED -- KUCHERENA IS HIS NAME -- IS SOMEBODY WELL-KNOWN TO US AS BEING VERY CLOSE TO THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT. SO THOSE WERE THE TWO PIECES THAT STUCK OUT TO ME AT THE FIRST BLUSH.
>> Brian Williams: OKAY, LET�S GO AROUND THE HORN HERE IN NEW YORK. PETE WILLIAMS, IT STRIKES ME, YOU HAVE HAD A FOOT IN BOTH WORLDS. A LONG TIME AGO, YOU WORKED FOR THE GOVERNMENT. YOU WORKED AT THE PENTAGON. YOU�VE BEEN ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE FENCE FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW AS A JOURNALIST. AND OUR LONGTIME JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT. AS YOU WATCHED THIS HOUR, WHAT FLIES THROUGH YOUR MIND? WHAT DO YOU KIND OF RANK IN ORDER AS THE AMBASSADOR DID?
>> Pete Williams: I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT IT�S BEEN 35 YEARS SINCE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT REALLY DEFINED WHAT PRIVACY SHOULD BE IN TERMS OF OUR TELEPHONES. THIS WAS A CASE OF A MAN WHO WAS HARASSING A WOMAN. THE FBI, POLICE PUT A PEN TRACE ON HIS PHONE CALL AND SAID, "YOU KNOW WHAT? "THE SUPREME COURT SAID YOU HAVE NO PRIVACY INTEREST IN THE PHONE RECORDS THAT GO TO THE PHONE COMPANY." "THOSE ARE BUSINESS RECORDS -- WHO YOU CALL, WHAT NUMBERS YOU CALL, HOW LONG, AND SO FORTH." CLEARLY, THINGS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THEN. IT WAS ENOUGH OF A CHANGE TO HAVE ONE FEDERAL JUDGE SAY, "YOU KNOW WHAT? BASED ON THAT STANDARD, "THAT�S SO FAR OUT OF DATE -- "THAT PEOPLE USE THEIR PHONES IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WAY -- WE HAVE TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT THIS." NOT ENOUGH OF A CHANGE FOR ANOTHER FEDERAL JUDGE, THOUGH, WHO UPHELD THE PROGRAM. BUT, CLEARLY, BECAUSE OF THESE REVELATIONS, BECAUSE OF THESE COURT CASES NOW, THE SUPREME COURT IS GONNA PROBABLY HAVE THE FINAL WORD ON WHETHER, IN FACT, WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE HERE IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
>> Brian Williams: YOU KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING ABOUT TODAY? I THINK IT WAS A DISSENT JUSTICE BRENNAN WROTE IN A CASE ABOUT THE PRESUMPTION OF PRIVACY IN TRASH LEFT AT THE CURB. IT WAS A CALIFORNIA CASE THAT WENT BEFORE THE COURT. AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT HOW MUCH TIME HAS CHANGED.
>> Pete Williams: YEAH, AND THE ANSWER, BY THE WAY, IS YOU HAVE NO PRIVACY INTEREST IN THE TRASH YOU THROW AWAY.
>> Leiter: DEPENDS WHERE THE CAN IS.
>> Pete Williams: EXACTLY. ONCE YOU PUSH IT OUTSIDE, AWAY FROM THE HOUSE.
>> Mitchell: LAWYERS.
>> Pete Williams: BUT PRIVACY IS A VERY IMPORTANT THING. AND I WAS TALKING TO -- IF YOU�LL PARDON ME DOING A LITTLE NAME-DROPPING HERE OR POSITION-DROPPING -- A MEMBER OF THE SUPREME COURT, WHO WAS ASKED, "WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BIG ISSUES ARE GONNA BE IN THE NEXT 15 OR 20 YEARS?" AND THIS JUSTICE SAID, WITHOUT A MOMENT OF HESITATION, "PRIVACY."
>> Brian Williams: OKAY, YOU TRUMPED ME. I WAS QUOTING A BRENNAN OPINION. YOU�RE QUOTING AN ACTUAL LIVING JUSTICE. WERE YOU -- TO ME, THE CONSUMER TAKEAWAY FROM OUR HOUR WAS THE PART WHERE I HELD UP THE PHONE. I WAS BEING HONEST ABOUT GOOGLING "RANGERS CANADIENS" THE NIGHT BEFORE. THAT REALLY GOT MY ATTENTION. WE MAY HAVE KNOWN THAT, INTELLECTUALLY, ALL OF IT, BUT TO HEAR IT, IN HIS HANDS, KIND OF METHODICALLY GO THROUGH WHY PEOPLE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN SOMEBODY GOOGLING A HOCKEY SCORE WAS QUITE SOMETHING.
>> Pete Williams: YES, AND THE OTHER PART OF THIS, OF COURSE, THAT�S BECOME KIND OF A DISCUSSION POINT, IS THE FACT THAT THE INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS ARE VERY INTERESTED IN THAT, TOO, AND THAT PROBABLY, FOR THE AVERAGE AMERICAN, THERE�S MORE PRIVACY INTRUSION BY GOOGLE AND YAHOO AND COMMERCIAL ESTABLISHMENTS WHO WANT TO KNOW YOUR EVERY MOVE THAN THERE IS THE NSA.
>> Brian Williams: THAT COULDN�T BE WHY THERE WAS AN AD FOR NEW YORK RANGERS APPAREL ON MY GOOGLE PAGE THE NEXT DAY? [ LAUGHTER ] I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST HAPPENSTANCE. ANDREA MITCHELL, SAME QUESTION TO YOU.
>> Mitchell: I WAS STRUCK BY THE CELLPHONE -- LEARNING HOW YOU LIVE FROM YOUR APPS.
>> Brian Williams: WOW. >> Mitchell: I MEAN, THAT -- YOU KNOW, THE GOOGLING THE RANGERS-CANADIENS SCORE -- AND THE DRAFTING OF THE E-MAIL. YOU KNOW, I HAVE STUDIED THIS. I HAVE REPORTED ON THIS NOW FOR A YEAR OR MORE AND KNEW THE CAPABILITY EXPOSED BY SNOWDEN. AND NOW IT�S BECOME ALMOST PART OF -- IT IS PART OF THE AMERICAN CONVERSATION, BECAUSE HE EXPOSED IT. BUT UNTIL YOU HEAR HIM DESCRIBE IT, IT DOESN�T BECOME VISCERALLY PART OF YOUR LIFE, AND THAT REALLY GOT TO ME. I HAD READ THE TRANSCRIPT A LITTLE BEFORE THE SHOW. AND HEARING HIM IN THAT EXCHANGE, IT REALLY BECAME VERY REAL. THERE ARE OTHER TECHNICAL POINTS THAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FACT-CHECK. JOHN KERRY JUMPED INTO IT TODAY AND SAID, "WELL, WHY WAS HE GOING TO CUBA?" WELL, THAT IS NOT FACTUALLY CORRECT. I JUST WANTED TO POINT THAT OUT. SNOWDEN IS CORRECT. HE WAS, BY ALL ACCOUNTS, TRYING TO PASS FROM MOSCOW THROUGH CUBA -- A TRANSIT POINT -- TO GET TO ECUADOR OR ANOTHER FRIENDLY LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRY THAT WOULD GRANT HIM ASYLUM AND WOULD NOT EXTRADITE HIM TO THE UNITED STATES. SO HE WASN�T TRYING TO BE IN CUBA. AND I WAS STRUCK BY HIS COMMENTS ABOUT RUSSIA -- ABOUT THE LACK OF PRIVACY AND INTERNET FREEDOM. HE WAS SOMEWHAT CRITICAL OF PUTIN AND OF RUSSIA ON THE ISSUE OF PRIVACY. HE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN RADICALIZED. HE SAYS -- IF YOU -- YOU KNOW, IF YOU TAKE HIS BASIC MOTIVATIONAL EXPERIENCE, AS HE DESCRIBES IT TO YOU, HE SAYS, 9/11, HE, YOU KNOW, JOINED THE -- HE TRIED TO JOIN THE SPECIAL FORCES AND WASHED OUT.
>> Brian Williams: RIGHT, THE FULL ARC OF WANTING TO SERVE AND THEN GETTING SOURED.
>> Mitchell: AND THEN GOING INTO CIA, BECOMING A CONTRACTOR. WHAT OFFICIALS SAY TO ME IS, "YEAH, BUT WHY DID HE THEN JOIN "BOOZ ALLEN, THE CONTRACTOR HE JOINED IN HAWAII, "SPECIFICALLY AFTER MEETING WITH THE JOURNALISTS -- "SPECIFICALLY, AT THAT POINT, SO DISILLUSIONED "THAT HE WENT IN FOR 90 DAYS TO DOWNLOAD "AND THEN, YOU KNOW, SAY HE HAD A MEDICAL EMERGENCY AND THEN GO ON THE RUN?" SO THAT IS THE COUNTERPOINT TO THAT.
>> Brian Williams: ALL RIGHT. MICHAEL LEITER, IT�S, I GUESS -- YOU�RE NOW IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, BUT YOU WEREN�T FOR A LONG TIME. AND YOU WERE AROUND FOR A LOT OF THE POLICY-MAKING. SO MUCH OF WHAT HAS MOTIVATED SNOWDEN IS ABOUT WHAT MORPH, WHAT CHANGED AFTER 9/11. THE WAR IN IRAQ THAT WAS LAUNCHED IN THE NAME OF 9/11. SO, WHAT...
>> Leiter: MAYBE THIS IS BECAUSE I�M THE ONE ON THE PANEL WHO IS THE MOST RECENTLY OUT OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY. MICHAEL OBVIOUSLY WAS IN MORE RECENTLY THAN I WAS. BUT REALLY TWO THINGS STUCK ME -- STRUCK ME. THE FIRST WAS HIS ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE THAT HE HASN�T DONE ANY HARM. AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I FIND THAT NAIVE AND PRETTY GRAVELY MISTAKEN -- THIS BELIEF THAT A LOT OF WHAT HAS ALREADY COME OUT, HE CAN�T IDENTIFY AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS HURT, HENCE THERE�S BEEN NO HARM. I THINK, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT�S COME OUT, HOW THE U.S. INTERCEPTS INFORMATION FOR THE ISLAMIC STATE OF IRAQ -- THE TERRORIST GROUP IN IRAQ AND SYRIA -- HOW THE U.S. INTERCEPTS INFORMATION ABOUT THE SYRIAN MILITARY, ABOUT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY, HOW THE U.S. PROTECTS ITS SPIES OVERSEAS FROM OPERATING AND NOT BEING COVERED BY FOREIGN POWERS, I CAN�T GIVE YOU THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED BY THAT, BUT I THINK IT�S REALLY HARD, AND I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY "IMPOSSIBLE," TO SAY THAT THERE�S NOT A REAL HARM THERE. SO I THINK HE�S JUST BOTH MISTAKEN AND NAIVE. THE OTHER PIECE WHICH STRUCK ME IN THAT SAME CONVERSATION ABOUT THE CELLPHONE, WHICH I THINK CAN BE STRIKING TO SOME PEOPLE, THAT AT THE CLOSE OF THAT, HE USED REALLY TWO INTERESTING WORDS. AND ALL OF THIS IS UNREGULATED AND UNCONTROLLED.
>> Mitchell: RIGHT.
>> Leiter: AND I THINK THAT REALLY DOES SHOW -- I DON�T WANT TO CALL HIM A 29-YEAR-OLD CLERK, BUT I THINK IT SHOWS A NAIVETE ABOUT HOW THESE THINGS ARE REGULATED AND ARE CONTROLLED, AND THERE�S A PERFECTLY GOOD ARGUMENT TO SAY THEY�RE NOT REGULATED ENOUGH, THEY�RE NOT CONTROLLED. BUT TO SAY THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING HAPHAZARDLY OR UNREGULATED, UNCONTROLLED, I THINK, IS REALLY WRONG.
>> Brian Williams: BUT DO YOU DENY THAT IT�S EVER BEEN DONE FOR SPORT? I MEAN, HE, AT ONE POINT IN THE INTERVIEW, TALKED ABOUT THE FRIVOLITY BEHIND THE SCENES, WHERE YOU�D CALL A COLLEAGUE OVER AND SAY, "HEY, LOOK AT THIS."
>> Leiter: ABSOLUTELY. THE LOVE EDGE, RIGHT? LOOKING AT WHO YOUR EX-GIRLFRIEND CALLED. I THINK THAT�S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT. AND I THINK IT�S IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THOSE INDIVIDUAL VIOLATIONS WHERE PEOPLE ARE REPORTED -- SELF-REPORTED BY THE NSA -- AND THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED -- IN MANY CASES, THEY WERE FIRED -- AND THEN WHETHER THESE PROGRAMS SYSTEMATICALLY WERE VIOLATING THE RULES SET. AND THE FACT IS, THEY WEREN�T VIOLATING THE RULES SET BY THE CONGRESS AND BY THE FISA COURT -- THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT COURT. BUT, IN HIS VIEW, THEY WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. NOW, AGAIN, I THINK WE�VE SEEN, FROM THE DISCUSSION THAT HAS COME AFTER HIS REVELATIONS, THAT, IN FACT, THAT BALANCE MAYBE WASN�T STRUCK CORRECTLY FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. BUT THAT�S A VERY DIFFERENT SORT OF VIOLATION THAN THOSE INDIVIDUAL VIOLATIONS OF PEOPLE DOING THOSE THINGS.
>> Brian Williams: ANDREA MITCHELL.
>> Mitchell: HE DESCRIBES HIMSELF AS A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR. AND I�M THINKING TO MYSELF, "HE�S THINKING OF HIMSELF AS COMING OUT OF THE TRADITION OF THOREAU.
>> Pete Williams: "CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE" WAS THE TERM.
>> Mitchell: "CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE," RATHER. I DON�T MEAN "CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR" -- THANK YOU, PETE. CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT -- THIS IS HIS SENSE OF SELF, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I STILL HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS DESCRIPTION OF THE WHISTLE-BLOWING, OF RAISING THE ALARMS. AS YOU REPORTED, WE�VE FOUND EVIDENCE OF ONE E-MAIL. IT COULD BE THAT THE NSA COVERED UP OTHER E-MAILS -- THE PAPER TRAIL HE SAYS EXISTS, BECAUSE HE SAID THERE WERE MULTIPLE ATTEMPTS.
>> Brian Williams: RIGHT.
>> Mitchell: SOME VERBAL, BUT SOME UNWRITTEN. AND WE�VE ONLY FOUND, FROM OUR SOURCES, ONE EXAMPLE. IT WAS IN APRIL OF 2013. SO WE�RE FOLLOWING IT, AND IT WILL TAKE THEM FOREVER TO GIVE IT TO US. AND I ASKED ONE TOP OFFICIAL, "DO YOU THINK THEY COULD BE LYING TO YOU AND NOT TURNING IT OVER TO THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH?" AND THIS PERSON SAID, "I CAN�T BE 100% SURE." THAT IS THE DEGREE TO WHICH WHAT SNOWDEN HAS REVEALED HAS INFECTED EVEN THE SUPPORTERS OF THE GOVERNMENT PROGRAM -- SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM -- THEIR SENSE OF THE CREDIBILITY, BECAUSE WE DO THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE LYING TO US ABOUT IT.
>> Pete Williams: YOU ASKED HIM, "WHEN DID YOU DECIDE TO START TO LEAK THIS MATERIAL?" >> Brian Williams: YEAH.
>> Pete Williams: AND GLENN GREENWALD SAYS, IN HIS BOOK, THAT SNOWDEN DECIDED TO TAKE HIS FINAL POST IN HAWAII FOR THE SOLE REASON OF GETTING ACCESS TO DOCUMENTS TO LEAK. WHAT MR. SNOWDEN TOLD YOU WAS THAT WHEN HE WAS IN HAWAII, HE WAS STILL RAISING THESE OBJECTIONS INTERNALLY. THERE�S A BIT OF A CONFLICT THERE.
>> Leiter: LET ME RUN -- I�LL PLAY THE RECOVERED LAWYER, BECAUSE THAT�S WHAT I AM. IMAGINE YOU�RE THE GENERAL COUNSEL AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY, AND YOU GET AN E-MAIL WHICH SAYS, "LISTEN, I THINK THAT YOU�RE VIOLATING THE LAW HERE. THIS IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL." AND THE GENERAL COUNSEL GETS THIS NOTE, AND HE SAYS, "WELL, GOSH, "THE CONGRESS HAS AUTHORIZED THIS OVER AND OVER. "THE FISA COURT SAYS IT�S OKAY. "WELL, MR. SNOWDEN, I APPRECIATE YOUR INTEREST, "BUT I�VE GOT TWO OTHER BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT "WHO ARE PRETTY GOOD AT UNDERSTANDING THE CONSTITUTION, AND THEY SAY IT�S JUST FINE." SO, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HE RAISED, THIS IS AN AWFULLY ODD WHISTLE-BLOWING ACT FOR THEM TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH.
>> Brian Williams: IS THAT REALLY WHAT THAT COUNSEL SAYS, KNOWING THAT, IN WAR-POWERS TIMES -- THIS WAS NOT FDR TELLING CHRYSLER THEY�RE GONNA SWITCH TO MAKING TANKS, BUT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION USE OF WAR POWERS, WITH BUSH AND CHENEY, ISN�T THE GENERAL COUNSEL AT THE NSA A LITTLE BIT ON GUARD FOR A PERVERSION, AS SNOWDEN PUT IT?
>> Leiter: AND I THINK, IF THAT E-MAIL COMES IN, IN 2004, 2005, BEFORE SOME OTHER REVELATIONS IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT INITIAL COLLECTION PROGRAMS, THAT COMES UP, AND THEN YOU GET SCARED. BUT POST-2004, -2005, -2006, THE CONGRESS HAS BEEN TOLD ABOUT THIS. THE CONGRESS HAS APPROVED IT. THE FISA COURTS HAVE APPROVED IT. SO, YEAH, MAYBE THE GENERAL COUNSEL KIND OF WONDERS, BUT HE STILL SAYS, "SHOULD I LISTEN TO EDWARD SNOWDEN, "OR SHOULD I LISTEN TO THE FISA COURT JUDGES THAT HAVE REPEATEDLY APPROVED THIS FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS?"
>> Brian Williams: CHUCK TODD, IN WASHINGTON SO PATIENTLY.
>> Pete Williams: [ CHUCKLES ]
>> Brian Williams: WE�RE TALKING ABOUT SNOWDEN�S CONTENTION, "IF SOMEBODY COULD JUST SHOW ME HARM."
>> Todd: RIGHT.
>> Brian Williams: EARLIER TONIGHT, FROM THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN ON "NIGHTLY NEWS," YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING READILY UNDERSTANDABLE TO ALL CIVILIANS, AND THAT IS, HOW TOUGH THESE DOCUMENTS HAVE MADE IT FOR THE WHITE HOUSE TO DO BUSINESS AROUND THE WORLD. IT HAS BEEN, FOR LACK OF A MORE GRANDIOSE TERM, EMBARRASSING FOR THE PRESIDENT, FOR HIS CAREER FOREIGN-SERVICE OFFICERS, FOR THE SECRETARY OF STATE, DIPLOMATS EVERYWHERE.
>> Todd: WELL, I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY WAS JOHN KERRY SO PERSONALLY MAD. AND IT WAS THE SAME -- YOU SORT OF POKE. AND WHEN YOU DO SNOWDEN INQUIRIES TO THE WHITE HOUSE STAFF, TO NATIONAL SECURITY FOLKS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST INQUIRY WILL BE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, "WE�RE NOT GONNA GET INTO IT." AND THEN YOU KEEP POKING, AND THEY JUST EXPLODE WITH ANGER. AND THE ANGER ALL CENTERS ON NOT WHAT HE TOOK, BUT IT GOES TO THIS EMBARRASSMENT OF HOW THIS HAS SET BACK AMERICA�S IMAGE AROUND THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE YOU TALK TO IN EUROPE WHO SAY, "AMERICA�S IMAGE IN EUROPE NOW IS AS BAD TODAY, POST-SNOWDEN, AS IT WAS DURING THE IRAQ WAR, THAT ALL OF THE GOODWILL THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA ESSENTIALLY WAS PROMISING TO BRING BACK -- RESTORE AMERICA�S REPUTATION AROUND THE WORLD -- COMPLETELY ERASED BY SNOWDEN. AND FOLKS IN THE WHITE HOUSE BELIEVE THIS. THEY SAY, "UNFORTUNATELY." AND THEY BLAME SNOWDEN AND THEY BLAME THESE REVELATIONS. SO THEY GET REALLY ANGERED. BUT BEFORE -- NOT TO HIJACK THINGS. ONE PART OF THIS CONVERSATION THAT I THINK WE�VE NOT TALKED ABOUT IS JUST -- AND I CAN�T TELL YOU HOW MANY E-MAILS I�VE GOTTEN ABOUT THIS, BOTH FROM FRIENDS, FAMILY, COLLEAGUES, WHO ARE JUST STUNNED AT HOW THIS 30-YEAR-OLD MAN IS SO CALM, COOL, AND COLLECTED IN AN INTERVIEW LIKE THIS WITH YOU, BRIAN, WHEN WE�VE SEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER DONE TV BEFORE, OR DONE TV VERY RARELY, NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE FIVE MINUTES OF AN INTERVIEW. AND THIS GUY SAT THERE FOR HOURS. HE WAS AMAZING. IT WAS -- IT�S STUNNING HOW PREPARED HE WAS.
>> Brian Williams: YEAH, I�VE BEEN ASKED ABOUT THAT INTERNALLY. "A," HE HAD THE TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT. [ LAUGHTER ] >> Todd: THAT�S TRUE.
>> Brian Williams: BUT, "B," IT WAS VERY INTERESTING. HE WAS VERY MEASURED. WE HAD PETE WILLIAMS AND ANDREA LOOK OVER THESE TRANSCRIPTS. WE HAD A WHOLE FAMILY OF PEOPLE KIND OF SCOURING THE TRANSCRIPTS -- PEOPLE WITHIN OUR NEWS DIVISION. AND EVERYONE WAS STRUCK THAT IT READ LIKE A BOOK GALLEY. IT WAS COMPLETE SENTENCES. IT WAS COMPLETE, ORDERLY THOUGHTS. HE WOULD -- HE NEVER LEFT AN ARGUMENT DANGLING. HE WOULD COME BACK AROUND AND FINISH IT. AND THAT�S THE WAY IT WENT. WE PROBABLY -- I DON�T HAVE A CLOCK ON IT -- WE PROBABLY SPOKE FOR BETWEEN THREE AND FOUR HOURS. WE WERE KIND OF --
>> Todd: WHAT WAS YOUR LONGEST BREAK? I�M JUST CURIOUS.
>> Brian Williams: YOU KNOW, IT WAS REALLY TECHNICAL, BECAUSE WE WERE OVERSEAS, USING EUROPEAN-BASED EQUIPMENT. WE HAD 32-MINUTE TAPES. WE HAD TO BREAK EVERY 32 MINUTES, OR IF WE SAW A BREAK COMING. WE TOOK ON NOURISHMENT, WE TOOK ON FLUIDS. IT WAS LIKE QUICK TURNAROUND OF A SOUTHWEST JET. AND WE WOULD GET GOING AGAIN, BECAUSE WE DIDN�T WANT TO LOSE THE THREAD. SO, I MEAN, NOTHING MORE THAN A COUPLE OF MINUTES. AND HE WAS THE WAY HE SEEMS ON CAMERA. AMBASSADOR McFAUL, YOU ARE THE MOST RECENT PERSON, OBVIOUSLY, IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE. CHUCK TODD, TONIGHT ON "NIGHTLY NEWS," SAID THAT EVERY MEMBER OF THE FOREIGN SERVICE IS USED TO, BY NOW, THAT UNCOMFORTABLE JOKE, "ARE YOU RECORDING THIS CONVERSATION? SHOULD WE GO AHEAD AND SAY HELLO TO THE NSA?" WE�VE BEEN MAKING THE JOKE AROUND THE OFFICE EVER SINCE WE�VE BEEN IN RECEIPT OF THESE TAPES. I KIND OF TREATED MY PHONE LIKE AN EXTRA PERSON IN THE ROOM ALL WEEKEND, AND I�M SURE YOU ENCOUNTERED THIS IN YOUR JOB.
>> McFaul: WELL, I DID. AND I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE DAMAGES, BECAUSE HE START OFF, AT THE BEGINNING, STATING, "I CAN�T THINK OF ANY DAMAGES." AND LET ME JUST TALK ABOUT THREE DIFFERENT PARTS. FIRST OF ALL, DIRECT DAMAGE TO OUR BILATERAL RELATIONSHIPS. I WAS THERE. ACTUALLY, I WAS THERE WITH YOU, CHUCK, AT THE G20 IN SEPTEMBER. AND I REMEMBER SOME VERY DIFFICULT MEETINGS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD WITH CLOSE ALLIES OF OURS. THAT�S DAMAGE TO THE UNITED STATES. IF YOU�RE A PATRIOT, YOU DON�T WANT TO DAMAGE OUR RELATIONS WITH OUR ALLIES. SECONDLY, JUST THE -- I ALSO WAS VERY STRUCK BY YOUR CONVERSATION ABOUT THE PHONE, RIGHT? IT�S SOMETHING I KNOW WELL, AND MICHAEL KNOWS THIS WELL. WE WOULD BRIEF PEOPLE WHEN THEY WOULD COME TO MOSCOW TO TALK ABOUT RUSSIAN CAPABILITIES. BUT MILLIONS AND TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WILL LOOK AT THAT AND THINK, "WOW, THAT�S REALLY HOW IT WORKS." AND IN THAT COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THAT RIGHT NOW ARE OUR ENEMIES. AND JUST BE AWARE THAT THAT�S A DIRECT CONSTRAINT ON OUR ABILITY TO GATHER INTELLIGENCE ON OUR ENEMIES. THEY�RE MORE SELF-AWARE OF WHAT WE CAN DO. BUT, NUMBER THREE, I EXPERIENCED EVERY SINGLE DAY, AFTER MR. SNOWDEN ARRIVED IN RUSSIA, WHAT YOU ALL WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT. WHEN I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT VIOLATIONS OF DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS IN RUSSIA, WHICH I DID FREQUENTLY, AS AMBASSADOR, THE FIRST QUESTION BACK TO ME WAS, "WELL, YOU DO THE SAME THING."
>> Brian Williams: MM-HMM.
>> McFaul: AND IT IS VERY FRUSTRATING TO ME THAT OUR IMAGE ABROAD WAS DAMAGED BY THESE REVELATIONS. AND THAT GETS ME TO MY LAST POINT, WHICH IS, I�M ALL FOR THE DEBATE WE�RE HAVING ABOUT OUR CONSTITUTION. I DON�T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE LEGALITIES ABOUT WHISTLE-BLOWERS, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE JUST SENDING ONE E-MAIL TO A GENERAL COUNSEL IS NOT REALLY A CAMPAIGN TO FIGHT FOR THE CONSTITUTION. BUT I DON�T -- BUT THAT�S ONE PLACE. WHAT I UNDERSTAND IS THIS OTHER PIECE THAT HAS ONLY TO DO WITH NATIONAL SECURITY -- HOW DOES THE INFORMATION RELEASED ABOUT THAT IN ANY WAY MAKE OUR CONSTITUTION STRONGER. AND I JUST WISH HE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT A LITTLE HARDER ABOUT THAT. I WAS VERY STRUCK WHEN HE SAID, "MAYBE I COULD MAKE MISTAKES." THAT�S A MISTAKE I THINK HE MADE THAT IS NOT, IN MY VIEW, IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST.
>> Brian Williams: ALL RIGHT, YOU MENTIONED THE CONSTITUTION. SO DOES MR. SNOWDEN. WE PROMISED VIEWERS HERE ON THE WEB, WHEN YOU DISTILL AS LONG A CONVERSATION AS WE HAD, ONE OF THE GREAT FRUSTRATIONS OF DOING COMMERCIAL TELEVISION IS WE HAD TO FIT IT ALL INTO THE HOUR WE WERE GIVEN. WE HAVE PORTIONS OF THE CONVERSATION THAT HAVE NOT YET AIRED, AND HERE IS THE FIRST ONE OF THEM. THIS IS ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION.
>> Snowden: THE FOURTH AMENDMENT, AS IT WAS WRITTEN, NO LONGER EXISTS. THE PROBLEM WITH IT -- THE REASON WE HAVE THAT DIFFICULTY -- IS ONE VERY SPECIFIC INTERPRETATION THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS MADE IN SECRET. AND THAT�S THAT THE FOURTH AMENDMENT�S PROHIBITION AGAINST UNREASONABLE SEARCH AND SEIZURE CAN BE SEPARATED. AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS DECIDED -- AGAIN, IN SECRET, WITHOUT ANY PUBLIC DEBATE, WITHOUT ANYBODY IN CONGRESS -- NOT ANYBODY, BUT WITHOUT THE BODY OF OUR REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS KNOWING, IS THAT NOW ALL OF OUR DATA CAN BE COLLECTED WITHOUT ANY SUSPICION OF WRONGDOING ON OUR PART, WITHOUT ANY UNDERLYING JUSTIFICATION, ALL OF YOUR PRIVATE RECORDS, ALL OF YOUR PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS, ALL OF YOUR TRANSACTIONS, ALL OF YOUR ASSOCIATIONS, WHO YOU TALK TO, WHO YOU LOVE, WHAT YOU BUY, WHAT YOU READ -- ALL OF THESE THINGS CAN BE SEIZED AND HELD BY THE GOVERNMENT AND THEN SEARCHED LATER FOR ANY REASON, HARDLY WITHOUT ANY JUSTIFICATION, WITHOUT ANY REAL OVERSIGHT, WITHOUT ANY REAL ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THOSE WHO DO WRONG. THE RESULT IS THAT THE FOURTH AMENDMENT, THAT WAS SO STRICT THAT WE FOUGHT A REVOLUTION TO PUT INTO PLACE, NOW NO LONGER HAS THE SAME MEANING THAT IT ONCE DID. NOW WE HAVE A SYSTEM OF PERVASIVE PRE-CRIMINAL SURVEILLANCE, WHERE THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO WATCH WHAT YOU�RE DOING JUST TO SEE WHAT YOU�RE UP TO, TO SEE WHAT YOU�RE THINKING, EVEN BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
>> Brian Williams: "PRE-CRIMINAL SURVEILLANCE." THAT�S A WEIGHTY TERM. PETE, I AM NOT, AS YOU KNOW, A CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR, BUT I�VE READ MY DAVID McCULLOUGH.
>> Pete Williams: [ LAUGHS ]
>> Brian Williams: AND AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE FOURTH AMENDMENT HAD, AS ITS DERIVATION, THE FRUSTRATION AND ANGER OF PEOPLE LIKE MADISON, PEOPLE LIKE ADAMS, WHO -- AND THIS CAME UP IN OUR CONVERSATION WITH GREENWALD AND SNOWDEN IN MOSCOW. JOHN ADAMS, TAKING THE RUTTED-OUT, MUDDY POST ROAD FROM QUINCY, MASS., DOWN TO PHILADELPHIA -- NOT A TREAT IN ITSELF -- TIRED OF GETTING HARASSED ON THE ROAD, TIRED OF THINKING THAT HIS WIFE AND FAMILY BACK IN QUINCY ARE SITTING IN A HOUSE THAT COULD BE ENTERED AT ANY TIME. THE FOURTH AMENDMENT READS -- AND THIS IS GOOD FOR EVERYBODY -- "THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO BE SECURE IN THEIR PERSONS, "HOUSES, PAPERS, AND EFFECTS, "AGAINST UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES, "SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED, "AND NO WARRANTS SHALL ISSUE, BUT UPON PROBABLE CAUSE, "SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION, "AND PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING THE PLACE TO BE SEARCHED, AND THE PERSONS OR THINGS TO BE SEIZED." NOW, NONE OF THE FRAMERS COULD ANTICIPATE THE iPHONE. NONE OF THE FRAMERS ANTICIPATED WE�D BE DEALING WITH ABORTION AS A CONTEMPORARY ISSUE. BUT THE DOCUMENT THROUGH THE JUSTICES HAS PROVEN ELASTIC, A LIVING, BREATHING CONSTITUTION, AS THEY SAY. SNOWDEN THINKS THE FOURTH AMENDMENT IS NOT, AS HE PUT IT, "WORTH THE PAPER IT�S WRITTEN ON," THAT IT�S -- BECAUSE OF WHAT HE WITNESSED, IT�S DEAD AND GONE. THIS IS A TOUGH ONE.
>> Pete Williams: WELL, I�M SITTING HERE WITH A FORMER SUPREME COURT CLERK, BY THE WAY. BUT, I THINK, IN A WAY, HE�S WON THE ARGUMENT IN PART ON THIS. AND THE PART IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT�S ABILITY TO GET ALL PHONE RECORDS EVER MADE IN THE U.S. -- ALL THE METADATA, THEY CALL IT -- AND PUT IT IN A GREAT, HUGE TANK. AND THEN GO LOOK AT IT WHENEVER THEY HAVE A REASON TO SAY, "WE THINK THIS PHONE NUMBER HAS BEEN USED BY A BAD GUY." BUT TO HOLD THAT DATA, YOU KNOW, HE�S PROBABLY WON THAT ARGUMENT BECAUSE THE HOUSE HAS JUST VOTED TO PUT THAT DATA IN CHARGE OF SOMEBODY ELSE, IN THE PHONE COMPANIES THEMSELVES AND NOT THE GOVERNMENT. SO IT APPEARS THAT THAT�S GOING TO CHANGE. SO, YOU KNOW, I GUESS YOU COULD SAY THAT BECAUSE OF MAKING THIS PUBLIC, THERE WERE INTERNAL COMPLAINTS ABOUT THIS. WE KNOW MEMBERS OF CONGRESS DIDN�T LIKE IT AND DIDN�T BUY THIS LEGAL ANALYSIS. WELL, THAT IS GOING TO CHANGE. THE BROADER QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT CAN LOOK AT SOMEBODY�S E-MAILS OVERSEAS, OR E-MAIL TRAFFIC AS IT�S GOING BY, THAT�S A VERY DIFFERENT QUESTION. AND THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID IN MANY CASES YOU CAN DO A SEARCH WITHOUT A WARRANT IF THERE ARE SO-CALLED "EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES --" PEOPLE RUSHING ACROSS THE BORDER, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DRIVING IN A SUSPICIOUS PART OF TOWN, WHATEVER THE REASON MAY BE. WHEN YOU GO ON AN AIRPLANE, YOU ARE SEARCHED. THERE�S NO SEARCH WARRANT. BUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS SAID THAT PUBLIC SAFETY IS AN EXCEPTION. SO, THERE ARE LOTS OF EXCEPTIONS TO THE FOURTH AMENDMENT. IT�S NOT -- LIKE ALL PARTS OF OUR CONSTITUTION, IT�S NOT ABSOLUTE. IT�S ALWAYS A WEIGHING PROCESS.
>> Brian Williams: MICHAEL, FIRST OF ALL, FULL TRANSPARENCY, WHAT JUSTICE DID YOU CLERK FOR?
>> Leiter: I CLERKED FOR A JUSTICE WHO I THINK IS PRETTY WIDELY VIEWED AS PRETTY PROTECTIVE OF THE FOURTH AMENDMENT -- JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER, APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT CLINTON. I HAVE TO SAY, I APPRECIATE THAT HE THINKS A LOT ABOUT THE FOURTH AMENDMENT, BUT I THINK BOTH HIS FACTS ON THE PROGRAMS ARE WRONG, AND HIS ANALYSIS IS SHODDY.
>> Brian Williams: ALL RIGHT, COUNSELOR. BUT HOW AM I SECURE IN MY PERSON AND MY AFFECTS IF MY THE GOVERNMENT CAN TURN ON THE MICROPHONE AND CAMERA WHEN I�M IN MY HOUSE, AND LISTEN TO AND WATCH ME?
>> Leiter: IT SOUNDS REALLY, REALLY SCARY, AND IN MOST CASES, THE GOVERNMENT CAN�T. AND WHAT SNOWDEN SAID IN THAT INTERVIEW OF -- THE GOVERNMENT CAN JUST COLLECT ALL THIS DATA, HAVE ALL THIS DATA, SEARCH IT ALL THE TIME, KNOW WHO YOU LOVE, KNOW WHO YOU TALK TO, JUST ISN�T TRUE. WHAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN DO IS HAVE SOME DATA ABOUT THE PHONE CALLS THAT YOU MAKE, NOT THE SUBSTANCE OF THE PHONE CALLS, BUT WHO YOU CALL, WHEN YOU CALL THEM. AND THEN WHAT THEY CAN ALSO DO IS, AFTER THEY GO TO A COURT THAT REVIEWS THAT, THEY CAN LOOK AT THAT. THEY CAN�T LISTEN TO YOUR PHONE CALL. THEY CAN�T TURN ON YOUR CAMERA AND LOOK AT YOU UNLESS THEY�VE GONE TO A COURT FIRST. SO HE�S JUST MISTAKEN ABOUT SOME OF THAT.
>> Mitchell: BUT, MICHAEL, HE WOULD SAY THAT COURT HAS NO ADVERSARIAL PROCEDURE...
>> Brian Williams: RIGHT.
>> Mitchell: ...AND THAT IT�S BASICALLY A RUBBER STAMP.
>> Brian Williams: THAT�S EXACTLY WHAT HE CALLED IT.
>> Leiter: I THINK THE CRITICISM OF THE FISA COURT, WHICH DOESN�T HAVE AN ADVERSARIAL PROCESS, IS NOT ENTIRELY UNFAIR. SHOULD YOU HAVE A MORE ROBUST PROCESS, YES.
>> Pete Williams: IT�S THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE COURT. IT DOESN�T EVEN CONTEMPLATE THE NSA USING THIS AGAINST YOU BECAUSE YOU�RE NOT A FOREIGN --
>> Leiter: WELL, BUT THAT�S NOT QUITE TRUE, PETE, BECAUSE WHEN YOU�RE TALKING ABOUT TERRORIST CASES THAT ARE FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS, THE NSA WOULD BE WORKING WITH THE FBI AND GET THAT. SO IT�S FAIR TO SAY IT�S NOT THE SAME THING AS A REGULAR COURT, WHERE, IF YOU�RE INVESTIGATING A DRUG CASE, YOU HAVE A DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND A PROSECUTOR. THAT�S RIGHT. BUT THEN THERE ARE OTHER PROTECTIONS IN THERE. NOW, AGAIN, HE WOULD SAY THEY�RE JUNK. THEY�RE NOT MEANINGFUL. BUT THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS IS, HE DOESN�T GET FIVE VOTES. THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE JUSTICES. THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE COURTS, AND YOU GET THIS HASHED OUT.
>> Pete Williams: I MEAN, AGAIN, THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS WOULD SAY IT�S NEVER BEEN TO THE SUPREME COURT BECAUSE IT�S ALWAYS BEEN SECRET, AND THIS IS A CHANCE TO GET IT THERE.
>> Leiter: THAT�S RIGHT, AND THAT�S WHY YOU ALSO HAVE A CONGRESS INVOLVED, AND THAT�S WHY IT�S REAUTHORIZED AND THE LIKE. I DO THINK THAT HIS VIEW OF THE FOURTH AMENDMENT, IT�S RIGHT THAT IT OFTEN LAGS TECHNOLOGY. THE SUPREME COURT, YOU KNOW, THEY DON�T KNOW WHAT�S COMING UP, AND THEY LOOK AT SOMETHING THAT�S BEEN AROUND FOR FIVE, OR SIX, OR SEVEN YEARS, AND THEN THEY JUDGE THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF IT.
>> Pete Williams: MAY I JUST BRIEFLY MAKE ONE POINT HERE?
>> Brian Williams: SURE.
>> Pete Williams: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I CONSTANTLY HEAR FROM THE PEOPLE I COVER IS THAT HE CONFUSES THE CAPABILITY OF THE NSA TO DO SOMETHING WITH THE CLAIM THAT THEY ARE DOING IT.
>> Brian Williams: RIGHT. >> Leiter: EXACTLY RIGHT.
>> Pete Williams: AND WHEN YOU ASKED HIM ABOUT EXAMPLE OF WHERE ARE THEY DOING THIS TO AMERICANS, HE DIDN�T HAVE ANY. AND THAT IS ONE WEAKNESS, OR ONE CRITICISM OF HIM AND GREENWALD THAT I HEAR ALL THE TIME FROM PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT.
>> Mitchell: AND ONE OTHER QUICK THING --
>> Brian Williams: YES, THEN I�M GONNA CALL A TIMEOUT TO GET SOME BUSINESS DONE.
>> Mitchell: ...AND THAT IS THAT THOSE SO-CALLED REFORMS, PEOPLE IN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY TELL ME THEY ARE DELIGHTED WITH THE HOUSE BILL, THAT IT ACTUALLY GIVES THEM MORE LEEWAY THAN THEY USED TO HAVE AND A LITTLE BIT OF POLITICAL COVER. SO, THESE REFORMS THAT HAVE COME POST-SNOWDEN ARE NOT GONNA WORK THE WAY HE MIGHT IMAGINE THEM.
>> Brian Williams: TO MESSRS. McFAUL AND TODD, BE HAPPY YOU�RE NOT HERE BECAUSE IT�S GETTING UGLY IN NEW YORK. [ LAUGHTER ] WE�LL GET TO YOU IN JUST A MOMENT. TO ALL THOSE JOINING OUR CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK, ON TWITTER -- "BRIAN, WHAT WAS YOUR TAKE ON HIS BODY LANGUAGE AND DEMEANOR DURING THE INTERVIEW?" ASKS KATHY COOPER. THE BEAUTY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, A 60-INCH FLATSCREEN HD TELEVISION IS YOU BASICALLY SAW WHAT I SAW. YOU SAW EYE CONTACT WHEN HE MADE IT. YOU SAW WHEN HE DIDN�T MAKE EYE CONTACT. YOU SAW HOW HE WAS SITTING. WHAT YOU SAW WAS ALSO SPREAD OUT OVER FOUR, FIVE BREAKS. HE WENT BACK AND ASSUMED THE SAME KIND OF SITTING POSITION. HE WOULD TAKE LONG PAUSES. THERE ARE POINTS THAT DIDN�T AIR JUST BECAUSE OF GERMANENESS, WHERE HE WOULD STOP HIMSELF, APOLOGIZE FOR EITHER LOSING HIS TRAIN OF THOUGHT OR FOR LOOKING FOR A BETTER WORD. BUT IN HIS KIND OF APHORISM, IDIOMS, SPEECH PATTERNS, VOCABULARY SELECTION, IF ANYTHING, IT WAS A LITTLE BIT OF ANOTHER CONVERSATIONAL ERA. HE HAD A VERY PROPER WAY OF SPEAKING -- HALFWAY TO REFRESHING IN THAT WAY. TONY JACKSON -- "WHAT ADDITIONAL INFORMATION DID SNOWDEN GIVE ABOUT HIS MILITARY RECORD AND BACKGROUND?" INTERESTINGLY, I SAID THE FOLKLORE ABOUT YOU IS THAT YOU BROKE BOTH LEGS IN BASIC TRAINING. AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING LIKE, SUFFICE TO SAY, I WAS NOT CUT OUT FOR SPECIAL FORCES -- LOOK AT ME. HE DIDN�T CONFIRM OR DENY THAT HE HAD BROKEN BOTH LEGS IN BASIC EXCEPT THAT HE TRIED IN THE U.S. ARMY THAT ACCELERATED PROGRAM, RECRUITMENT FOR SPECIAL FORCES. AND I MADE SOME COMMENT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SUCCEEDING IN THE MILITARY IS MOSTLY ABOUT HEART OVER HEAD. AND, APPARENTLY, LEGS GOT IN THE WAY OF HIS EXPERIENCE. WE TALKED ABOUT METADATA IN THIS GROUP. WE TALKED ABOUT METADATA WITH SNOWDEN. HE MAKES A LARGER POINT HERE ABOUT THE INFORMATION HAYSTACK AND ABOUT WHY, IN HIS VIEW, BIG INTELLIGENCE GATHERING DOESN�T WORK. I�LL PLAY FOR YOU NOW THAT EXCHANGE. I REALLY MEANT TO.
>> Snowden: I TAKE THE THREAT OF TERRORISM SERIOUSLY, AND I THINK WE ALL DO. AND I THINK IT�S REALLY DISINGENUOUS FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO INVOKE AND SORT OF SCANDALIZE OUR MEMORIES, TO SORT OF EXPLOIT THE NATIONAL TRAUMA THAT WE ALL SUFFERED TOGETHER AND WORKED SO HARD TO COME THROUGH. TO JUSTIFY PROGRAMS THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO KEEP US SAFE BUT COST US LIBERTIES AND FREEDOMS THAT WE DON�T NEED TO GIVE UP AND OUR CONSTITUTION SAYS WE SHOULD NOT GIVE UP.
>> Brian Williams: BUT YOU CAN SEE HOW IT HAPPENED. GUYS WITH BOX CUTTERS SPENT 200 BUCKS USING OUT OWN AVIATION SYSTEM TO TAKE DOWN OUR OWN BUILDINGS AND SMASH INTO THE PENTAGON AND A FIELD IN PENNSYLVANIA. WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO? IT�S A NON-TRADITIONAL ENEMY. THE EXPRESSION IS "AN ENEMY WE CAN�T SEE." WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO?
>> Snowden: YOU KNOW, AND THIS IS A KEY QUESTION THAT THE 9/11 COMMISSION CONSIDERED. AND WHAT THEY FOUND IN THE POSTMORTEM, WHEN THEY LOOKED AT ALL OF THE CLASSIFIED INTELLIGENCE FROM ALL OF THE DIFFERENT INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES, THEY FOUND THAT WE HAD ALL OF THE INFORMATION WE NEEDED, AS AN INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AS A CLASSIFIED SECTOR, AS THE NATIONAL DEFENSE OF THE UNITED STATES, TO DETECT THIS PLOT. WE ACTUALLY HAD RECORDS OF THE PHONE CALLS FROM THE UNITED STATES SENT OUT. THE CIA KNEW WHO THESE GUYS WERE. THE PROBLEM WAS NOT THAT WE WEREN�T COLLECTING INFORMATION. IT WASN�T THAT WE DIDN�T HAVE ENOUGH DOTS. IT WASN�T THAT WE DIDN�T HAVE A HAYSTACK. IT WAS THAT WE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE HAYSTACK THAT WE HAVE. THE PROBLEM WITH MASS SURVEILLANCE IS THAT WE�RE PILING MORE HAY ON A HAYSTACK WE ALREADY DON�T UNDERSTAND. AND THIS IS THE HAYSTACK OF THE HUMAN LIVES OF EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN IN OUR COUNTRY. IF THESE PROGRAMS AREN�T KEEPING US SAFE AND THEY�RE MAKING US MISS CONNECTIONS, VITAL CONNECTION, ON INFORMATION WE ALREADY HAVE, IF WE�RE TAKING RESOURCES AWAY FROM TRADITION METHODS OF INVESTIGATION, FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS THAT WE KNOW WORK, IF WE�RE MISSING THINGS LIKE THE BOSTON MARATHON BOMBINGS, WHERE ALL OF THESE MASS-SURVEILLANCE SYSTEMS, EVERY DOMESTIC DRAGNET IN THE WORLD DIDN�T REVEAL GUYS THAT THE RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE SERVICE TOLD US ABOUT BY NAME, IS THAT REALLY THE BEST WAY TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY? OR WE TRYING TO THROW MONEY AT A MAGIC SOLUTION THAT�S ACTUALLY NOT JUST COSTING US OUR SAFETY, BUT OUR RIGHTS AND OUR WAY OF LIFE?
>> Brian Williams: MR. LEITER, IN ANOTHER PORTION OF THE INTERVIEW, I MADE THE POINT TO SNOWDEN, SPEAKING IN TERMS OF DEVIL�S ADVOCATE, REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS LIKE JUST AFTER 9-11? WE ALL THOUGHT, "WELL, I GOT NOTHING TO HIDE. I�M NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG. GO GATHER --" WE�D BEEN HIT BY AN ENEMY WE COULDN�T SEE. AS I PUT IT, THEY SPENT $200 ON BOX-CUTTERS, USED OUR OWN AIRPLANES TO TAKE DOWN OUR OWN BUILDINGS. REMEMBER WHAT THAT WAS LIKE? AND HE�S NOW MAKING THE POINT WHEN WE HAD A DOMESTIC TERRORISM INCIDENT -- TWO GUYS NAMED TSARNAEV -- THE RUSSIANS TRIED TO TELL US, "HEY, YOU�VE GOT THESE TWO WEAPONIZED GUYS NAMED TSARNAEV," WE SPELL THEIR SURNAMES WRONG, WE MISS THAT. ALL THIS MEGA DATA COLLECTION -- WE MISS THAT BECAUSE OF THE SIZE OF THE HAYSTACK.
>> Leiter: WELL, HE�S RIGHT IN SOME WAYS. IF YOU HAD A SMALLER HAYSTACK, AND YOU KNEW THAT THAT HAYSTACK ONLY CONTAINED THE THINGS YOU REALLY NEEDED, IT WOULD BE EASIER TO CONNECT THE DOTS. THE PROBLEM IS YOU CAN�T PREDICT UP FRONT IF THE CORRECT INFORMATION IS IN THE SMALL HAYSTACK, SO YOU COLLECT MORE. SO, THE ANSWER IS "THE LESS I HAVE TO COLLECT, GREAT. BUT I DON�T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE TO COLLECT." SO YOU HAVE TO COLLECT MORE OF IT. AND I DO THINK HE�S ALSO RIGHT THAT 10, 13 YEARS INTO THIS FIGHT, WE DO HAVE TO REPEATEDLY GO BACK AND LOOK AT THESE PROGRAMS AND SAY, "HOW MUCH VALUE IS THERE?" BECAUSE THEY DO HAVE AN IMPACT ON PRIVACY AND CIVIL LIBERTIES, AND WE WANT TO BALANCE THIS. SO TO THE EXTENT WE CAN STOP COLLECTION AND STILL GET WHAT WE NEED ON TERRORISM OR COUNTER-PROLIFERATION OR AGAINST RUSSIA, GREAT. COLLECT LESS STUFF. BUT IT�S NOT SO EASY ON THE FRONT END TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE TO COLLECT AND WHAT YOU DON�T HAVE TO COLLECT.
>> Brian Williams: PETE WILLIAMS?
>> Pete Williams: I WOULD JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, THIS PROBLEM OF NOT FINDING THE BOSTON BOMBERS WAS LOOKED AT BY CONGRESS, BY THE FBI, BY THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, BOSTON POLICE. NO ONE SAID, "THE PROBLEM WAS WE COLLECTED TOO MUCH INTELLIGENCE."
>> Brian Williams: WHAT IF WE TURN THE SPIGOT OFF? YOU�RE GONNA HAVE CERTAIN PEOPLE, PERHAPS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT -- CIVIL LIBERTARIANS -- SAY JUST DISBAND THE TSA, STOP ALL THE LISTENING, AND LET�S GO BACK TO, YOU KNOW, THE METHODS WE USED TO INVESTIGATE EVIL-DOERS.
>> Pete Williams: YEAH, I�D BE VERY SURPRISED IF THAT HAPPENED, BUT I WILL SAY THIS. I THINK WHILE MY OWN VIEW IS THERE�S SOMETHING LACKING IN SNOWDEN AND GREENWALD�S ABILITY TO CONNECT ON THE ONE HAND WHAT THEY THINK IS THE NSA�s OVERREACH WITH WHAT IT�S ACTUALLY DOING TO VIOLATE PEOPLE�S PRIVACY IN THE U.S., I WILL SAY I THINK THEY DO HAVE A POINT ABOUT, YOU KNOW -- HERE�S A QUESTION -- DO WE WANT TO JUST SORT OF TURN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY LOOSE AND SAY, "GET WHATEVER YOU CAN," OR SHOULD THERE BE SOME KIND OF INTERNAL CONTROLS OVER THAT BEYOND WHAT THERE ARE NOW? IT�S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
>> Brian Williams: AMBASSADOR McFAUL HAD THE GREAT DISTINCTION OF BEING FROM MONTANA, AND SPENT A LOT OF YEARS AROUND BUTTE AND BOZEMAN, AND AMBASSADOR, I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS VIS-�-VIS THE FOLLOWING. I�VE SPENT SOME TIME OUT THERE MYSELF, AND I HAVE FRIENDS OUT THERE WHO DON�T EVEN LIKE THE FACT THAT THEIR CAR YELLS AT THEM TO PUT THEIR SEATBELT ON. I KNOW A LOT OF OTHERWISE LAW-ABIDING, GOD-FEARING MONTANANS WHO DRIVE THEIR FORD F-150 WITH THAT SEATBELT CONSTANTLY CLICKED BEHIND THEM, AND THEY CAN GET IN AND OUT WITHOUT GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE. THEY HAVE A SIMILAR AVERSION, AS YOU KNOW WELL, TO A LOT OF SPEED LIMITS. HOW DO YOU THINK EDWARD SNOWDEN WOULD BE GREETED IN, SAY, BOZEMAN, MONTANA, IF HE WERE TO APPEAR AT THE LOCAL LIBRARY TO GIVE A TALK?
>> McFaul: I WAS WONDERING HOW YOU WERE GONNA CONNECT BUTTE, MONTANA, TO SNOWDEN. [ LAUGHTER ] I THINK THAT WAS VERY CLEVER. WELL, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY A COUPLE OF THINGS. IT�S GOOD TO HAVE PEOPLE LIKE THAT WHERE I GREW UP THAT QUESTION AUTHORITY, THAT QUESTION THE POWER OF THE GOVERNMENT. I THINK THAT WE HAVE A LONG TRADITION IN OUR COUNTRY THAT GOES BACK 300 YEARS -- NOT JUST TO THE BEGINNING OF OUR COUNTRY, AND THAT MAKES US BETTER. AND WHEN HE SAID THAT IN YOUR INTERVIEW, THAT THAT�S THE SPIRIT IN WHICH HE�S DOING IT, I HOPE THAT�S TRUE FOR HIM, AND THAT�S WHAT MOTIVATES HIM. AT THE SAME TIME, THERE ARE WAYS TO CHALLENGE AUTHORITY THAT DON�T DO DAMAGE TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY. THERE�S A LOT OF PEOPLE IN MONTANA THAT ARE WORRIED ABOUT TERRORISTS, BRIAN. THERE�S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT THREATS TO OUR COUNTRY, AND IT�S A BALANCE, BUT I THINK IT�S NOT AN IMPOSSIBLE BALANCE. I THINK IT�S VERY IMPORTANT WHAT ONE OF YOUR -- I CAN�T SEE WHO�S THERE, BUT SOMEBODY SAID ABOUT CAPACITY VERSUS ACTION. DO WE WANT TO UNILATERALLY DISARM? MY ANSWER TO THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT. THAT WOULD BE CRAZY. ESPECIALLY IF WE�RE THINKING 10, 20, 50 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, THINKING ABOUT NEW ADVERSARIES, GROWING ADVERSARIES THAT ARE NOT DISARMING. SO THAT WOULD BE, TO ME, JUST NOT WISE. BUT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO USE THOSE CAPACITIES FOR OUR NATIONAL SECURITY AND NOT VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION. I THINK WE CAN DO THAT.
>> Brian Williams: ANDREA MITCHELL?
>> Mitchell: BUT WE HAVE TO BE SMART ABOUT IT. I AGREE WITH MIKE McFAUL. BUT THE INSTITUTIONS, THE BUREAUCRACIES THAT HAVE GROWN UP THIS CRAZY SYSTEM OF 16 INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES AND A DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, AND NO ONE HAS REALLY RUN THAT EFFECTIVELY.
>> Pete Williams: HOW MANY BILLION?
>> Mitchell: AND HOW MANY BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IS A CLASSIFIED NUMBER.
>> Pete Williams: BLACK-OUT NUMBER IN THE BUDGET.
>> Mitchell: SO, THAT HASN�T WORKED IF AN EDWARD SNOWDEN CAN GO IN AND SCRAPE ALL OF THIS STUFF FOR POTENTIALLY 1.7 MILLION DOCUMENTS. THEY DON�T REALLY KNOW.
>> Brian Williams: HE DENIES THAT.
>> Mitchell: THEY STILL DON�T KNOW WHAT HE TOOK. THEY KNOW WHAT HE HAD ACCESS TO �CAUSE THEY CAN FOLLOW HIS TRACKS, BUT THEY DON�T KNOW WHAT HE DOWNLOADED BECAUSE HE WAS COPYING IT. AND SO THEY HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT HE DID. NOW, THEY�VE CHANGED THE SYSTEM, SUPPOSEDLY, WHERE THERE�S A BUDDY SYSTEM. WHERE ONE PERSON CAN�T KEY IN THE WAY HE DID AS A SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR, WHICH WAS THE TITLE. HE MADE THE POINT THAT HE HAD A MUCH BROADER AND DEEPER REACH AND EFFECT, BUT WE�VE CREATED A BUREAUCRACY THAT CLEARLY ISN�T WORKING, AND IT ISN�T MAKING US SAFER IN THAT EXTENT. WE�RE COLLECTING, AS HE SAID, THIS ENORMOUS HAYSTACK, AND WE�RE NOT ABLE TO ACCESS IT AND TARGET IT AS EFFECTIVELY AS WE OUGHT TO BE.
>> Brian Williams: KEVIN TIBBLES IS DOWN IN ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE EDWARD SNOWDEN LIVED, AND THAT�S ELLICOTT CITY, MARYLAND, AND KEVIN, YOU WATCHED, CORRECT, WITH SOME LOCAL FOLKS THERE?
>> Tibbles: BRIAN, WE�RE AT THE TROLLEY STOP, WHICH IS A HISTORIC WATERING HOLE HERE IN ELLICOTT CITY, JUST OUTSIDE THE CITY OF BALTIMORE, ALSO A BEDROOM COMMUNITY OF THE D.C. AREA. THE BOTTOM LINE HERE TONIGHT, BRIAN, WAS THAT NO ONE REALLY KNEW WHAT EDWARD SNOWDEN SOUNDED LIKE. AND THERE WAS A REAL HUSH THAT WENT THROUGH THIS ESTABLISHMENT THIS EVENING WHEN EDWARD SNOWDEN STARTED TO SPEAK. PEOPLE WERE REALLY TRYING TO GET THEIR MINDS AROUND WHAT HE HAD TO SAY, WHAT WAS HE REALLY LIKE, WHAT WOULD HE COME ACROSS AS BEING LIKE. AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE�S MINDS HERE, WHO HAVE TOLD ME SINCE THE INTERVIEW TOOK PLACE, THEIR MINDS WERE CHANGED. A LOT OF PEOPLE SEEMED TO BE SOUNDING A LITTLE MORE SYMPATHETIC TOWARDS WHAT MR. SNOWDEN SAYS THAT HE HAS DONE. MANY PEOPLE ARE SAYING PERHAPS THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD TO BE BROUGHT TO THE FORE. MANY OF THEM NOTED THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, HE SAID THAT HE TRIED TO BE A WHISTLE-BLOWER WITHIN THE NSA COMMUNITY, AND THAT WAS REBUFFED, AND THAT IS THE REASON WHY HE HAS ENDED UP IN MOSCOW, RUSSIA, GIVING THIS INTERVIEW TO NBC THIS EVENING. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, MANY IN THIS GROUP DO SAY THAT THEY ARE VERY DISAPPOINTED WITH THE ROUTE THAT MR. SNOWDEN TOOK IN MAKING THIS POINT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY�RE STILL BUZZING ABOUT BEHIND ME HERE NOW, BRIAN, AND THAT IS THAT HOW DO THEY GET THEIR MINDS AROUND THE FACT THAT THEY MAY BE APPRECIATIVE OF WHAT HE HAS SAID THAT HE HAS DONE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HIS METHODOLOGY IS SOMETHING THEY STILL REALLY CAN�T ACCOUNT.
>> Brian Williams: WELL, KEVIN, LET ME ASK YOU THIS -- THE KIND OF SUBTEXT QUESTION WE ASKED AT THE TOP AND BOTTOM OF THE BROADCAST, WHICH NICELY ALLOWS FOR NO GRAY AREA IN AN AD CAMPAIGN THAT WAS RED AND BLUE -- A PATRIOT OR TRAITOR? IF YOU HAD TO POLL THE ROOM, NOT TO GO FRANK LUNTZ ON YOU HERE, BUT IF YOU HAD TO ASK PEOPLE IF THEY CAME DOWN ON IT, AGAIN, TAKING AWAY THE ABILITY TO HAVE A GRAY AREA -- A PART OF EACH -- HOW DO YOU THINK THE ROOM WOULD COME DOWN?
>> Tibbles: WELL, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I ANTICIPATED YOU ASKING ME THAT.
>> Brian Williams: SEE, YOU�RE A CRAFTY GUY. YOU�RE A SHARP GUY.
>> Tibbles: AND I�VE ASKED THESE PEOPLE AS WELL, AND IT IS SPECIFICALLY THE GRAY AREA THAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. PEOPLE HERE ARE NOT SAYING THAT THEY THINK THAT HE�S A PATRIOT OR A TRAITOR, BUT MANY PEOPLE ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY FIGURING OUT THIS EVENING EXACTLY WHAT HE IS. MANY PEOPLE ARE QUESTIONING HIS MOTIVES EVEN THOUGH THEY�RE SAYING THEY�RE A BIT THANKFUL THAT HE HAS DONE WHAT HE�S DONE. BUT I THINK IF THIS CONVERSATION IS TAKING PLACE IN LIVING ROOMS AROUND THE COUNTRY, I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHO AND WHAT ED SNOWDEN IS THIS EVENING.
>> Brian Williams: KEVIN TIBBLES IN ELLICOTT CITY, MARYLAND. A GREAT PLACE TO STOP BY, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE EITHER IN TRANSIT BETWEEN BALTIMORE AND WASHINGTON OR THOSE GENERALLY IN THE AREA. CHUCK TODD, TOMORROW AT THE WHITE HOUSE, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN? WHAT�S YOUR ANTICIPATION? WHAT�S GOING TO BE SAID AS A RESULT OF WHAT WE HAVE HEARD TONIGHT? AS KEVIN NOTED, FOR SOME PEOPLE WATCHING TONIGHT -- THIS WAS APPARENT SITTING ACROSS FROM THE GUY, WHICH IS WHY I TRIED TO WRITE IT AT THE TOP THERE THE WAY I DID. THAT AS HE SAT DOWN AND GOT MIKED UP, AND WE FOCUSED IN, IT STRUCK ME THIS IS GONNA BE THE FIRST GOOD, CLEAN LOOK AT THIS GUY, AND EVEN TO HEAR HIS VOICE, TO SEE HIS MANNERISMS, THAT WE�VE EVER HAD. NOW THAT HE�S AN IDENTIFIABLE HUMAN, NOT SHOT AGAINST A PANE OF GLASS IN A HOTEL IN HONG KONG, WHAT DO YOU THINK HOW WHAT BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT COME AT THIS HOW?
>> Todd: WELL, I CAN TELL YOU THE INITIAL SORT OF CONVERSATIONS THAT I�VE ALREADY HAD ELECTRONICALLY WITH SOME WHITE-HOUSE FOLKS IS THAT IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THEY�RE GONNA SEIZE ON THE IDEA THAT HE WANTS TO COME HOME, RIGHT? THAT�S ESSENTIALLY WHAT THEY�RE TAKING AWAY FROM THIS INTERVIEW IS THAT HERE�S EDWARD SNOWDEN, WENT ON A BIG STAGE TO PLEAD HIS CASE TO COME HOME. AND I THINK THAT PUBLICLY, THAT�S GOING TO BE WHAT YOU HEAR THEM SAY -- "YOU KNOW WHAT? "IF HE WANTS TO COME HOME, THEN HE OUGHT TO COME HERE. THEN WE CAN START NEGOTIATING, IF THAT�S WHAT HE WANTS TO DO." BUT I THINK THEY�RE GONNA SEIZE ON THAT FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS, BRIAN. ONE IS IT IS THE AMERICAN THING TO DO, WHICH IS, "WELL, COME ON BACK TO THE STATES, AND YOU�LL GET A FAIR TRIAL." NOW, OF COURSE, EDWARD SNOWDEN DOESN�T BELIEVE HE�S GONNA GET A FAIR TRIAL AND WANTS TO NEGOTIATE BEFORE HE DOES THAT, BUT I THINK THAT THAT�S GOING TO BE WHERE THEY LEAN ON. THEY DON�T WANT TO DEBATE HIM ON THE MERITS OF WHAT HE�S DONE. THEY DON�T WANT TO ENGAGE AND HAVE THAT BACK-AND-FORTH DEBATE. BUT I WANT TO ADD ONE MORE THING THAT WE HAVEN�T REALLY TALKED ABOUT HERE, AND THAT IS THE POLITICAL, I THINK, MISTAKE THAT OFFICIAL WASHINGTON MADE -- GEORGE W. BUSH�S ADMINISTRATION AND BARACK OBAMA�S ADMINISTRATION -- THEY NEVER HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH THE COUNTRY, RIGHT? THIS WAS, I THINK, THE PART OF SNOWDEN THAT�S GONNA RESONATE WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE INTERVIEW. HE BROUGHT THIS UP. THEY NEVER HAD THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT SHOULD BE THE LINE ON PRIVACY AND SECURITY WITH THE COUNTRY UNTIL NOW WHEN IT WAS FORCED. AND I CAN TELL YOU THERE�S SOME POLITICAL ADVISORS TO THE PRESIDENT WHO NO LONGER HAVE THOSE WHITE-HOUSE BADGES, BRIAN, WHO THINK THE PRESIDENT MADE A HUGE MISTAKE LAST SUMMER WHEN HE DID NOT TRY TO USE THIS MOMENT OF SNOWDEN TO SAY, "OKAY, LET�S HAVE A REAL CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS," AND INSTEAD FOCUS ON SNOWDEN, FOCUS ON SOME BLUE-RIBBON PANEL HERE, BLUE-RIBBON PANEL THERE. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, TO THIS DAY, WE STILL HAVEN�T HAD THE REAL DEBATE AND THE REAL CONVERSATION, AND I THINK THAT THAT�S WHY THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN SUFFERING POLITICALLY ON THIS ISSUE.
>> Brian Williams: YEAH, A FRIEND OF MINE WHO�S A VETERAN IN THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE OF POLITICS IN WASHINGTON SAID THAT�S HIS CALCULATION, TOO. THE PRESIDENT MISSED A KIND OF POPULIST BET TO SAY, "ON BEHALF OF YOU, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, I�M GONNA LEAD YOU. WE�RE GONNA GO GRAB OUR PRIVACY BACK." SNOWDEN GOES ONE FURTHER AND SAYS IN ANOTHER PORTION OF THE INTERVIEW WE DESERVE BETTER SERVICE FROM COMMON CARRIERS AND INTERNET PROVIDERS. HE MENTIONED PARENT COMPANY OF NBC UNIVERSAL, COMCAST, ALONG WITH A SLEW OF OTHERS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE ENCRYPTION IF WE WANT IT. WE SHOULD HAVE -- WE ARE CUSTOMERS OF THESE COMPANIES. WE SHOULD HAVE SECURITY IN OUR COMMUNICATIONS. I ALSO TRIED TO ENGAGE HIM IN YOUR AREA, CHUCK, PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS. LET�S PLAY ONE LAST PORTION -- HIS ANSWER HERE. DID YOU VOTE FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA?
>> Snowden: I THINK... I THINK WHO PEOPLE VOTED FOR IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE KEPT PRIVATE.
>> Brian Williams: DID HE DISAPPOINT YOU?
>> Snowden: WHAT I WILL SAY ON THAT, UM... IS THAT WHETHER OR NOT I VOTED FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA, I WAS INSPIRED BY HIM. HE GAVE ME COURAGE. HE GAVE ME HOPE. I REALLY BELIEVED THAT HE WOULD BE A POSITIVE FORCE FOR THE COUNTY. AND I STILL HOPE HE WILL BE.
>> Brian Williams: YOU, HOWEVER, LOOKED AT IT -- YOU WERE HOPING HE WOULD REVERSE SOME OF THE BUSH POLICIES YOU WERE QUOTED AS SAYING YOU WERE DISAPPOINTED THAT HE DID NOT.
>> Snowden: WELL, HE SAID HE WOULD.
>> Brian Williams: AND, IN YOUR VIEW, IT WORSENED?
>> Snowden: IT�S BEEN A LOGICAL PROGRESSION. HE�S EMBRACED SOME POLICIES AND HE�S EXTENDED OTHER POLICIES. HE�S NOT BUSH. HE�S HIS OWN PRESIDENT. BUT THE CONSONANTS IN THE POLICIES SHOULD BE CONCERNING FOR A LOT OF AMERICANS BECAUSE HE WAS A CANDIDATE THAT PROMISED THAT HE WOULD GIVE THE PUBLIC BACK ITS SEAT AT THE TABLE OF GOVERNMENT. AND HE STILL HAS TIME TO DO SO.
>> Brian Williams: CHUCK TODD, EXACTLY THE POINT YOU TOUCHED ON GOING INTO THAT.
>> Todd: I HAVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, IT IS FUNNY THE, UM -- I THOUGHT THAT THERE WAS A PART OF WHAT HE SAID THERE, AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT OBAMA HAS AND HASN�T DONE ON THIS FRONT, I THINK THAT HE REPRESENTS, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, THIS DEMOGRAPHIC THAT WE�VE NOTICED, WHICH IS WHAT? THE 18- TO 35-YEAR-OLDS -- WHAT IS HE? 30 YEARS OLD -- WHO DID THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, OBAMA WAS GONNA BE MORE ANTI-WASHINGTON, MORE TRANSPARENT, AND THE FACT IS, SOMETHING HAPPENS TO THESE PRESIDENTS WHEN THEY GET THAT FIRST -- YOU ALMOST WONDER, IS IT WHEN THEY GET THAT FIRST BRIEFING FROM THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW? MIKE LEITER MIGHT KNOW THIS.
>> Leiter: IT PROBABLY SCARES THE HELL OUT OF THEM.
>> Brian Williams: IT�S THE LEITERS WHO COME INTO THE OVAL OFFICE AND CHANGE THESE PRESIDENTS. IN THE POST-9/11 ERA.
>> Todd: THEY DO. YOU CAN�T HELP BUT WONDER THAT. YOU CAN�T HELP BUT WONDER THAT.
>> Brian Williams: SO, IT�S LEITERS FAULT, WE�VE DECIDED.
>> Mitchell: WELL, I ACTUALLY HAVE AN ANSWER TO CHUCK�S QUESTION, THOUGH, AS TO WHY THEY HAVEN�T HAD THIS CONVERSATION, WHY HE MISSED THAT OPPORTUNITY. SNOWDEN�S EXPOSURE, THE LEAKS, WE DIDN�T KNOW WHO HE WAS THEN, BUT THE GREENWALD FIRST STORIES CAME TWO DAYS BEFORE THIS SUMMIT WITH PRESIDENT XI OF CHINA. AND THAT WAS THE SUMMIT WHERE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WAS GOING TO SAY TO THIS NEW PRESIDENT OUT IN SUNNYLANDS, CALIFORNIA, "YOU CANNOT HAVE YOUR MILITARY "SPYING ON OUR AMERICAN COMPANIES. THIS CYBER-WAR HAS TO STOP." HE WAS GOING ON THE OFFENSIVE. THEY HAD A WHOLE GAME PLAN, AND INSTEAD, WHAT XI SAID TO THE PRESIDENT, I�M TOLD, IS, "YOU ARE THE AGGRESSOR." HE TOOK THE SNOWDEN THING AND RAN WITH IT. AND FROM THEN ON, THE PRESIDENT�S BEEN PLAYING DEFENSE.
>> Brian Williams: BECAUSE ALL OF LIFE GOES BACK TO EITHER "THE GODFATHER" OR A TOM HANKS MOVIE -- "THIS WAR STOPS NOW."
>> Leiter: BRIAN, YOU REALLY CAN�T UNDERESTIMATE WHAT IT�S LIKE -- I CAN�T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT IT�S LIKE -- BEING A PRESIDENT AND BEING TOLD, "THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO ATTACK THE COUNTRY." I REMEMBER BRIEFING THE PRESIDENT BEFORE HE WAS PRESIDENT. I REMEMBER BRIEFING THE PRESIDENT, GETTING YELLED AT BY THE PRESIDENT AFTER THE CHRISTMAS DAY BOMBING BECAUSE WE HADN�T STOPPED SOMETHING. AND THAT RESPONSIBILITY OF TRYING TO PROTECT THE NATION IS SO HEAVY. AND IT DOES MAKE IT HARDER TO GO BACK AND SAY, "HMM, LET�S TAKE AWAY THIS COLLECTION. LET�S SCALE THAT BACK." IT�S HARD TO FIND A SILVER LINING IN ALL THIS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, BUT I DO THINK CHUCK IS RIGHT, OTHERS ARE RIGHT. IF WE CAN COME OUT OF THIS WITH A MORE SOLID FOUNDATION OF PUBLIC SUPPORT AND TRUST FOR THE SECURITY INSTITUTIONS THAT DO KEEP THE NATION SAFE, THEN IT�S ALMOST WORTH IT.
>> Brian Williams: A COUPLE OF TWEETS HERE. JOSH B. "ANY STATEMENTS BY JOHN KER--" "ARE STATEMENTS BY JOHN KERRY AND OTHERS "BLASTING SNOWDEN AS A TRAITOR AND COWARD "LIKELY TO ENGENDER EVER MORE SUPPORT FOR SNOWDEN? "IS THE GOVERNMENT LOSING THE P.R. BATTLE? SUBMITTED TO THOSE WATCHING FOR THEIR APPROVAL." NICK S. ON TWITTER. "DID YOU GET THE FEELING SNOWDEN LIED "WHEN HE SAID HE COULDN�T ACCESS THE FILES IF HE WAS GIVEN A LAPTOP?"
>> Brian Williams: JUDGMENT BUSINESS IS NOT SOMETHING I WAS IN. HE HAS SAID REPEATEDLY HE�D BE A FOOL TO ENTER RUSSIA WITH THE MATERIAL. THE JOURNALISTS ARE A NICE KIND OF FOIL, A WAY, AS WE PUT IT, OF PUTTING SPACE BETWEEN HIM, THE THEFT, WHICH HE ADMITS HE TOOK PART IN, HE DID, AND THE BREAKING AND KIND OF CURATION, TO USE A HIDEOUS WORD, OF THE STORIES.
>> Pete Williams: AND BY THE WAY, BRIAN, THAT CREATES A BIG PROBLEM FOR HIM LEGALLY. BECAUSE AS WE LOOK FORWARD NOW, HE WANTS CLEMENCY, WHICH IS LEGAL FORGIVENESS. NEVER MIND. COME HOME. ALL IS FORGIVEN.
>> Brian Williams: YEAH.
>> Pete Williams: DOESN�T SEEM LIKE THAT�S LIKELY TO HAPPEN. EVERYBODY IN THE ADMINISTRATION HAS SAID NO TO THAT. SO THEN WE GET INTO, "ALL RIGHT, WHAT DO YOU HAVE "TO GIVE THE UNITED STATES," THEY�LL SAY TO HIM, "THAT WOULD MAKE US WANT TO PLAY �LET�S MAKE A DEAL�?" HE SAID, "WELL, I CAN TELL YOU HOW I DID IT." MAYBE THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS HOW HE DID IT, MAYBE IT DOESN�T. NORMALLY IN A CASE LIKE THIS, HE WOULD SAY, "OKAY, HERE�S THE DOCUMENTS BACK." HE CAN�T DO THAT NOW. BY HIS OWN STATEMENT, HE DOESN�T HAVE THEM ANYMORE.
>> Brian Williams: THEY�RE SCATTERED.
>> Pete Williams: THE MOST HE COULD DO IS SAY TO ALL THE JOURNALISTS THAT HE�S GIVEN THEM TO, "GIVE THEM BACK TO ME "SO THAT AT LEAST I CAN GIVE THE GOVERNMENT "AND SAY, �OKAY, I CAN�T GIVE YOU THE ORIGINAL, "�BUT HERE ARE COPIES "�SO AT LEAST YOU�LL KNOW WHERE I WAS, WHAT I GOT, WHAT I COMPROMISED.�"
>> Mitchell: THAT�S WHAT THEY WANT.
>> Pete Williams: BUT THAT�S NOT A VERY STRONG NEGOTIATING POSITION, GIVEN THAT HE CANNOT CONTROL WHAT THESE OTHER PEOPLE DO.
>> Brian Williams: LET�S GO TO THE WEST COAST. AMBASSADOR TURNED PROFESSOR McFAUL. WHAT�S THE AVERAGE AGE OF YOUR STUDENTS? HOW DO YOU THINK THEY�LL REACT TO EDWARD SNOWDEN TOMORROW MORNING?
>> McFaul: WELL, THE AVERAGE AGE OF MY STUDENTS HERE ARE 20, 21, SO THAT DEMOGRAPHIC OF 18- TO 35-YEAR-OLDS. YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY�RE GONNA HAVE THE DEBATE WE�RE HAVING HERE, AS WELL, WHICH IS TRYING TO FIND THE BALANCE. I WILL SAY -- TO PICK UP ON A THREAD EARLIER, WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THIS GIANT HAYSTACK AND HOW WE FAILED TO STOP THIS TERRORIST OR THAT TERRORIST, AND THAT�S ALL VERY TRUE. I WOULD REMIND EVERYBODY THAT INTELLIGENCE GATHERING IS MUCH BIGGER THAN THAT, AND FOR FIVE YEARS, I WORKED IN THE GOVERNMENT AND BENEFITED FROM LOTS OF INTELLIGENCE GATHERING. IT NEEDS TO BE REGULATED, AS WE�VE TALKED ABOUT, BUT LET�S NOT JUST FOCUS ON THE ONE PIECE OF INTELLIGENCE THAT WE�VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. THE SECOND PIECE THAT�S STRIKING TO ME, THAT I THINK SHOULD BE DEBATED, IS IN WE DON�T WANT TO LOSE OUR FREEDOMS. WHO WANTS TO LOSE THEIR FREEDOMS, RIGHT? WHEN HE SAID, "I DON�T WANT TO GIVE UP MY FREEDOMS." IT�S STRIKING TO ME THAT WE DON�T HAVE A REALLY NICE, SOLID CASE STUDY, AS WE WOULD SAY IN POLITICAL SCIENCE, WHERE THAT HAPPENED TO SOMEBODY IN AMERICA THAT HE COULD DOCUMENT. AND THAT GETS ME BACK TO THIS CAPACITY VERSUS WHAT WE CAN DO AND WHAT WE DO DO. AND I HOPE THAT THAT REMAINS PART OF THE DEBATE. AT LEAST WHEN I TALK ABOUT IT HERE WITH MY STUDENTS, I�LL MAKE THAT PART OF THE DEBATE, AS WELL.
>> Brian Williams: ANDREA MITCHELL, WHAT DO THINK HAPPENS TOMORROW? WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TOMORROW AS A RESULT OF WHAT WE�VE HEARD TONIGHT?
>> Mitchell: WELL, TOMORROW AND THE TOMORROWS AFTER THAT, I THINK WE NEED A REAL DEBATE, A PUBLIC DEBATE ABOUT...
>> Brian Williams: IMAGINE THAT.
>> Mitchell: ...PRIVACY, ABOUT SECURITY, THE BALANCE, WHETHER WE HAVE THE RIGHT BALANCE, AND THEY NEED TO DISCLOSE MORE ABOUT THE STRUCTURES BECAUSE WE ARE SPENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, WE�RE LOSING OUR PRIVACY, AND I DON�T KNOW IF WE ARE GETTING THE SECURITY THAT WE NEED TO HAVE AGAINST THE TERROR THREATS THAT MICHAEL LEITER WORKED SO HARD AGAINST.
>> Brian Williams: WELL, WITH THAT, THIS HAS BEEN A REALLY INTERESTING EXPERIMENT ON KIND OF A DISCUSSION THAT WE NEEDED TO HAVE AFTER HEARING THAT HOUR, WHICH WE WE VERY, VERY CAREFULLY WENT THROUGH AND SUBMITTED WHAT WE THOUGHT WERE THE MOST CRUCIAL AND IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE HEARD FROM EDWARD "CALL ME ED" SNOWDEN A WEEK AGO TOMORROW NOW IN A HOTEL ROOM IN MOSCOW. WE WANT TO THANK OUR GUESTS, THOSE FAR-FLUNG AND COMING IN TO US BY REMOTE, FORMER AMBASSADOR, NOW PROFESSOR McFAUL AT STANFORD, CHUCK TODD, VERY LATE NIGHT FOR HIM �CAUSE HE�S GOT TO GET UP EARLY IN THE MORNING IN OUR WASHINGTON BUREAU, KEVIN TIBBLES AND THE GOOD PEOPLE IN ELLICOTT CITY, MARYLAND, AND, OF COURSE, MR. LEITER, MS. MITCHELL, AND FORMER SUPREME COURT JUSTICE PETE WILLIAMS HERE WITH US IN NEW YORK. THANK YOU ALL. AS WE SAID, WE WILL LEAVE THIS POSTED ON THE WEB FOR A COMPANION PURPOSES TO TONIGHT�S SPECIAL. AND FOR THE HUGE TEAM THAT WORKED TO MAKE THAT A GOOD HOUR OF TELEVISION -- TWO GOOD HOURS OF TELEVISION TONIGHT -- I�M BRIAN WILLIAMS IN NEW YORK.
