Guests: William Bell, Leo Terrell, Bruce Baron, Rick Segall, Beth Holloway Twitty, Joe Tacopina, Jayne Weintraub, Lisa Pinto
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, tensions are escalating in the investigation of a gang rape at Duke University, an angry community, some telling the DA to press on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My understanding from this family, this young lady has identified the three men who have raped her! They should be in jail!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Victoria, I will tell you right now that your information is incorrect. And I will also tell you that your comments in this case are exactly what this case does not need right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And NBC‘s Martin Savidge is joining us now live from the Duke campus and has the very latest. Martin, what‘s happening tonight?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Rita. A number of developments today, all of them coming from the district attorney, Mike Nifong. One of them was a surprise and one of them was not. They took place at that community forum you just showed there. This was a forum that was held on the campus of North Carolina Central University. It is the school where the young alleged victim attends.
And it was during that session there that the district attorney said, number one, he plans to press on with the case. Well, that‘s not a surprise. The surprise was he said there is more DNA testing that is going on. That upset a number of the defense attorneys. They thought they had received all of the DNA test results. They felt that their clients were exonerated. Now they hear more testing is taking place. The DA was not specific as to exactly what kind of tests were being conducted.
And then he started talking about other issues in this case, specifically that he doesn‘t necessarily need DNA tests to move forward. Here‘s how he spoke about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL NIFONG, DURHAM COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: It doesn‘t mean nothing happened, it just means nothing was left behind, which is the case in 75 to 80 percent of all sexual assaults.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: And of course, what he‘s referring to there is the fact that the test results yesterday came back negative, as far as indicating any of the 46 members of the Duke men‘s lacrosse team in the rape allegations that have been made against them.
Some of the other criticisms, though, that came up at this community meeting—and it got heated at times—some of the people were saying that there should be people under arrest already, at this moment. It‘s been four weeks since this crime was reported. And there were criticisms against the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN CUNNINGHAM, NCCU STUDENT: You have minimalized my sister to a stripper and an exotic dancer! She walks this campus every day, going to class, trying to provide for her family. You don‘t identify her as a mother. You don‘t identify her as a student. You don‘t identify her as a woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: One of the things we know for certain tonight, Rita, is that it was hoped that with these DNA test results coming back, there would be a sense of finality with this case and that tensions would begin to ease, emotions could start to subside. That hasn‘t happened—Rita.
COSBY: You know, Martin, one of the other things, and this is something that we actually broke on the show when we talked to the accuser‘s father. Word today—this was sort of confirming it—that she may have ID‘d some or all of the—all of the boys?
SAVIDGE: Well, this is something that‘s been talked about before. The district attorney has not been exactly clear on this. But there have been statements that she has come forward and been able to identify three men. That‘s why they‘ve always felt that there were 3 out of 46. They just never said exactly which three.
Well, some authorities say she does know which three, that she‘s pointed them out specifically to authorities, at least by their first name, and also looking at photographs—Rita.
COSBY: All right, Martin. Thank you very much.
And meantime, LIVE AND DIRECT caught up with that same woman that we heard from earlier at the community forum, Victoria Peterson (ph). She‘s a community activist and a graduate of North Carolina Central Community College in Durham. She confronted the Durham police deputy chief right after today‘s feisty forum. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That young lady was brutally raped, and it took you guys two days to go over there and investigate. (INAUDIBLE) Yes, I want—I want those three boys in jail by 5:00 o‘clock today, or I‘m going to call the FBI! I‘m going ask for a hate crime investigation because I‘m tired of the cover-up, and there is a big cover-up here!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining me now are two people who have been watching the events closely. In a moment, we‘re going to hope to have Reverend Al Sharpton, but you can see him there. We‘ve got the mayor of Durham, North Carolina, William Bell.
Mayor Bell, let me play another little clip. This is from the students. They were quite passionate today. Let me show what they were saying in the forum just a short bit ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We would like to extend a hand out to the young lady that was attacked and let her know that your school is behind you. Regardless of what the DNA is, we know that it took the police two days to check that house. So anything could have been done with any evidence. So we want to let you know what we have a great law school, we have great attorneys as professors here, and we‘re definitely behind you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Mayor, did it clear the air that some people got to vent their frustrations publicly?
MAYOR WILLIAM BELL, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA: Yes, and that‘s what we‘d hoped. You need to understand that Durham is a town of a lot of activists. We provide forums for people to express themselves, and they aren‘t inhibited about expressing themselves, whether it‘s at a city council meeting, a county commissioners‘ meeting, a board of education meeting, or a forum like you saw today over at North Carolina Central University.
COSBY: Are you worried, Mayor, that things are going to get heated?
Because, you know, there has been frustration on both sides.
BELL: Well, let me say this. I am very confident that we aren‘t going to have any type of violence as a result of this. What you need to understand is that people express themselves. We provide them outlets for doing that.
But by and large, I‘m really pleased with the way people have handled themselves during this course of events. We‘ve had demonstrations, and that‘s to be expected. If we didn‘t have demonstrations, I would have been surprised. But they‘ve been very controlled. People have been very responsible in their demonstrations. It‘s reflected a broad cross-section of this community by gender, by race and by professional. So people need to vent. We allow them a chance to vent. But I‘m satisfied that they‘re going to let the legal process take its course.
COSBY: And of course, a lot of people were firing questions at the district attorney, Michael Nifong, today. This is what he had to say. Let me play it and I‘ll get your reaction, Mayor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIFONG: Certainly, I have heard the criticism from many people that if the situation were reversed—I think it‘s usually said something like, If this were a white girl and the focus was on the NC Central basketball team, they would all be in jail right now. And I understand that that is a sentiment in the community from some people. But I just want you to know that that is not the way I conduct business. It never has been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Mayor, what do you make of the fact that the DA is making these comments? And some people are saying the DA is sort of politically driven, you know, maybe in the midst of campaign season.
BELL: I don‘t think that to be the case. Mike is a DA that has been in this office almost 30 years, and he‘s conducted himself in a very professional fashion, and I expect him to do it in this case. He understands the seriousness of this matter. What we said over and over again to the public—we said it to the police department—we want a very thorough investigation. We want it to be as open as possible. But by the same token, we don‘t want to jeopardize any rights of the individuals, whether they are the alleged suspects or the alleged victim. So it just happened that this is an election year. Mike is an appointed DA, but he understands that this is something that has to be (INAUDIBLE) very thoroughly and...
COSBY: Do you believe, Mayor...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: ... he‘s basing it on the facts or basing it on other things? What do you believe is—do you believe, in his heart of heart, he does believe that a rape took place, it‘s not just rhetoric?
BELL: I believe based on the facts of his experience and how he‘s conducted himself over the years that he‘s been the DA or assistant DA for Durham.
COSBY: Where do you see this case headed right now? And what do you see the community reaction there?
BELL: Well, again, what I don‘t want to emphasize too strongly is the fact that Durham is a very intelligent community with all races. They aren‘t going to be fooled. They‘re willing to listen. And I think, as we go through this process, you‘ll see that once the facts are revealed, ultimately, they will be accepted. Now, obviously, it‘s not going to please everyone, but if the process is open as we‘ve had it, the people continue to work very thoroughly in trying to turn over (ph) the investigation, it‘s going to come to a conclusion that this community is going to be able to live with.
COSBY: Well, and it sounds like both sides are (INAUDIBLE) Let me play a little clip from the defense attorneys because they say that this girl is making it up, and they‘re certainly, you know, digging in on both sides. Let me play a quote. This is from one of the defense attorneys talking about the girl and about the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH CHESHIRE, ATTORNEY FOR DUKE LACROSSE PLAYERS: I think that it is a false accusation that has been made for some reason against these boys. And I think it has been used to hurt their lives forever and to tear this community apart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Mayor, when you hear that rhetoric, “tear this community apart,” do you think anyone is doing that intentionally?
BELL: Well, obviously, the defense attorneys have to present their case. And what we would hope, that it wouldn‘t be tried in the public media and it will tried in the courts, if it gets to that point. But again, we haven‘t heard from the DA officially. What we‘ve heard is (INAUDIBLE) but we haven‘t heard the results of his report and his investigation. And when we get that, then we‘ll be a better position to see how we move forward.
COSBY: All right, Mayor, thank you very much. We appreciate you being with us.
And everybody, stick with us. We‘ve got a lot more coming up ahead, a lot more on the Duke case and also some interesting comments coming from the DA and other sides. We‘re going to have our legal panel look at it when we come back. Stick with us, everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIFONG: The fact is that any time that you have a victim who can identify her assailant, then what you have is a case that the judge must let go to the jury, which means that in this situation, I would expect that a jury would get to evaluate the evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: More on the bombshell details in the Duke lacrosse rape allegations and the Durham district attorney who says this case is not going away. Yesterday‘s break in the case stirred up the legal battle, as the DNA results showed no match to any of the 46 lacrosse players.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WADE SMITH, ATTORNEY FOR DUKE LACROSSE PLAYERS: No DNA material from any young man tested was present on the body of this complaining woman—not present within her body, not present on the surface of her body, and not present on any of her belongings.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining us now is defense attorney Bruce Baron and also Civil Rights attorney Leo Terrell. Bruce, what do you think about the DA saying he‘s going forward with the case?
BRUCE BARON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This case is dismissed, done, finished. He‘s going forward now because he has no exit strategy. What his exit strategy‘s probably going to be, Rita, is that now he looks foolish, if he throws the case out. He‘s going to take to a grand jury, and if the grand jury comes back and indicts these kids, he‘s going to say, You see? I told you so. And if the grand jury doesn‘t come back and indict these kids, he‘s going to say, Well, you know, I don‘t believe in it, but that‘s the justice system.
COSBY: Let me bring in—let me bring in Leo. Leo, is he right to go forward?
LEO TERRELL, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yes, he has every right to go forward. This is a Southern lynching. Rita, I cannot understand how these defense attorneys are trying to tell the district attorney this case is over. This is an eyewitness account...
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Let me finish! This is a situation where there is a racial component!
BARON: Give me one...
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: Leo, just give me what evidence?
TERRELL: Sir, I‘ll deal with the evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Let me say it~! When she was leaving they said, Thank your dad for making...
BARON: Were you there? Were you there?
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: This is a racist comment!
BARON: Let me tell you something!
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: That is a racial comment!
BARON: You know what that was? The DA didn‘t invite, Rita, Afro-American students...
TERRELL: The problem is this...
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: That is a racial comment!
COSBY: Now, Bruce, let me—let me get in. Bruce, what about these photos that the defense attorneys, which they have yet to show us—but what about this allegation that they say that they‘ve got these photos that show that she was bruised and beaten before she even came in?
BARON: Yes.
COSBY: And apparently—what do you make of that, Bruce?
BARON: Let me tell you, Rita. If they have those photos, this is an ultimate travesty of justice. Let me tell you, this district attorney has really prejudiced this case because...
TERRELL: You are wrong!
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: ... to a grand jury early on, presented his evidence, and then let the chips fall as they may, that be the case. In this particular fashion now, for him to go to a grand jury now, these people that would sit in that box and decide truth or justice, they‘re prejudiced already.
COSBY: Go ahead, Leo...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Leo, let me play a comment. Let me—let me play, Leo—this is a comment—because I did ask her father—this is the accuser‘s father a while back—I did an interview with him, and I asked him specifically could somebody else have created any of these injuries. It doesn‘t seem there was any doubt that she had severe bruising. Like, you know, we‘ve heard from the DA (INAUDIBLE) There was tears, too, that there was severe beating in some form. The question is who. And I said, Could it have been a boyfriend? Could it have been someone else? And he says no. This is what the father said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Had they ever been in fights before, her and her boyfriend, any physical fights before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have been in fights, but she always would win because in my opinion, she‘s a little stronger than he is.
COSBY: Did they ever have physical fights?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
COSBY: Were they ever fighting physically, beating each other?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. No. Mostly, it was just arguing, and she would mostly do the fighting.
COSBY: Was—did he ever lay a hand on her before, her boyfriend?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don‘t think so, no.
COSBY: Have you ever seen her with bruises before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: So Leo, how do you make the case that these boys did it versus somebody else right now? What‘s the task before the DA, Leo?
TERRELL: Rita, it‘s very simple. It‘s talking to this witness, giving her a polygraph test. You know what? This victim—and she‘s not a stripper, she‘s a black woman who is being victimized in the press by these defense attorneys!
BARON: Oh, please!
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Let me finish!
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Rita, I‘ll talk to you, Rita!~ I‘ll talk to you.
BARON: Well, you got to talk to me, too!
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: ... he makes his case—he sits down with the victim. He goes over it step by step with the facts. He takes a second DNA test. There‘s no evidence, Rita Cosby...
BARON: Rita? Rita?
TERRELL: ... that this woman...
BARON: Not even DNA evidence...
TERRELL: ... is lying at all.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: You know, Bruce, actually, Leo brings up a point. Let me—let me—let me show—this is a question—because a lot of—we‘ve gotten so many e-mails from folks. Of course, this case is really hitting a chord with a lot of folks. I want to put up one of the e-mails. This is from a viewer. And a viewer says, “While lawyers are right to point out one‘s DNA will be found in one‘s bathroom”—remember, the defense attorneys yesterday pointed out that there was some DNA found in the bathroom. “If the semen”—and again, we‘re not sure if it is semen—
“of both young men is on the same towel, the landscape changes.” Now, that‘s according to Benjamin Brian (ph), one of our viewers.
Is it possible that that might be that—we‘re hearing further tests are going to come in.
BARON: You know, Rita, the reality of it is, is that guys that live in the same household and share the same towels and take showers...
TERRELL: How do you know this?
BARON: Well, I got...
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: Leo, if I did a DNA test in your bathroom, would you think I‘d find your DNA on your towels?
TERRELL: Are you sitting here telling me that you know for a fact these guys didn‘t rape this black woman!
BARON: No, no, no, no, no, no!
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: I‘ll tell you what I‘m saying...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Bruce, one second. What if it is semen traces, and it‘s both on that same towel? Bruce?
TERRELL: Answer it!
BARON: I‘m sorry, Rita?
TERRELL: Answer it, Bruce! Answer her question, Bruce!
BARON: Repeat that question, please, Rita.
COSBY: What I‘m saying to you is what if it is not just DNA, what if it is specifically semen traces, and it‘s on the same towel?
BARON: Well, Rita, who‘s to say that—I‘m sure sex went on in this household on numerous occasions...
TERRELL: Oh! Oh!
BARON: ... above and beyond that night. So clearly...
TERRELL: How do you know that? How do you know that?
BARON: ... there would be semen on the towel.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: This is the reaction. Let me—I also talked again to the accuser‘s father, and he spoke exclusively with us last night. Here‘s a little bit more of what he had to say, guys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they told big tales. They‘re trying to protect those boys, to be honest with you. I don‘t even think they have any pictures because I think if they had them, they would have told a long time ago. I mean, them boys wouldn‘t need a lawyer if they could show pictures that say she was bruised before she went to the house, and the state that she was in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Leo...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: I cannot understand why the other side has not released the pictures.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Have you seen the pictures?
COSBY: One of the correspondents has.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: But again, it‘s a big question of the time stamp, you know, whether that—what time it happened versus when this alleged incident happened.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: But why—Leo, I will ask you. How come they haven‘t released the pictures, if these do exist and they‘re legitimate? Why not just show them to everybody?
TERRELL: Rita, I‘ll tell you right now. The defense attorneys are trying to poison the jury pool.
BARON: Oh, no!
TERRELL: They are trying to poison...
BARON: Leo, they‘re not poisoning anything! It‘s already been poisoned by the prosecutor!
TERRELL: Where are the pictures? Where are the pictures?
BARON: You know where the pictures are? I guarantee you that these pictures exist!
TERRELL: I want to see the pictures!
BARON: You know what‘s going to happen?
TERRELL: Where are they?
BARON: Those defense attorneys are going to...
TERRELL: Where are the pictures!~
BARON: ... ask this prosecutor if they can go into the grand jury...
TERRELL: Where are the pictures, Bruce!
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: This is Tawana Brawley all over again!
TERRELL: Don‘t change the subject!
BARON: Was that racial?
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: Was that racial, Leo?
TERRELL: Have you seen the pictures?
BARON: This is Tawana Brawley all over again!
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: You guys, let me put a quote up. Let me put a quote up from a viewer, going to the credibility of the pictures. I thought this was really a great e-mail that we got in. It says, “As for the pictures, I was just playing with my digital camera. I can change the date and time even for pictures that I‘ve already taken.” Bruce, what do you make of that?
BARON: You know, there‘s so much conjecture out there. There was conjecture about the e-mails, about the cameras. The fact remains is this. At the end of the day, it‘s going to be a circumstantial case for or against whether or not there was a rape. And let me say, if there was a rape, the book should be thrown at these kids. But by all means, families have been destroyed here already.
TERRELL: You‘re trying to close the book right now!
BARON: These 46 kids did not get their day in court.
TERRELL: You‘re trying to close the book!
BARON: They were convicted already in the media.
TERRELL: You‘re trying to close the book!
BARON: A coach has been fired from the team or asked to step down. Let me tell you something. There‘s a rush to judgment here by not only the prosecutor but by the president of Duke University!
COSBY: But Bruce, let me play—this is what the DA says. The DA says he‘s basing it on physical evidence, most—you know, most it seemed on what happened at the hospital, what he saw based on the results that he‘s been reading of a nurse checking this girl. Let‘s play what he had—this is what he had said today when people say, What about the evidence?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIFONG: Duke University Hospital is the best trauma center in the area. This nurse—this nurse was specially trained in sexual assault. And I would just point out that my conviction that a sexual assault actually took place is based on the examination that was done at Duke hospital.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: So Leo, can you rely on a medical exam, sort of between that and her statements? Is that enough of a case?
TERRELL: Oh, I think it‘s enough of a case for this case to go to the jury. And this nurse, in which the DA is talking about, is credible, unless Bruce has some inside information...
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: No, no! Don‘t change the subject! Rita...
BARON: I‘m not changing the subject!
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me get Leo to talk. Let‘s get Leo to talk.
TERRELL: Talk about the nurse! Talk about the nurse, Bruce.
BARON: I‘ll talk about the nurse!
TERRELL: Talk about the nurse!
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: The one thing, too, guys—I got to bring this up, Bruce. The father also suggested to me and basically came out and said that a foreign object was placed up her. Nothing sounds consensual about that, and I think that that‘s what going to come out in some of the hospital reports, Bruce. I mean, doesn‘t that hurt? Doesn‘t that hurt the defense attorneys?
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: There‘s no question. That would absolutely hurt the defense.
But keep in mind one thing...
TERRELL: Oh!
BARON: As we saw in the Kobe case...
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: Sex with multiple partners...
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: Sex with multiple partners can produce the same vaginal tearing and bruising.
TERRELL: Bruce, this is not the Kobe case!
BARON: Oh, I forgot. I‘m sorry. I‘m delirious.
TERRELL: Don‘t change the subject!
BARON: I‘m not changing the subject!
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: Do you remember, Leo, we talked, you and I, about the Kobe case before?
TERRELL: This is a nurse!
BARON: The nurse cannot distinguish those injuries from a rape to sex with multiple partners. It‘s impossible.
TERRELL: It‘s enough evidence to go to trial, Rita! It‘s enough evidence! And Bruce is trying to tell America the case is over!
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: And in fact, it was enough to get the search warrant...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me put up the search warrant, guys, because you‘re both hitting it on the head. It definitely was enough, at least to get that. It says, “Medical records and interviews that were obtained by a subpoena revealed the victim had signs, symptoms and injuries consistent with being raped,” and also the assault that we‘re talking about.
The other thing, you guys, Bruce, we haven‘t talked about this—what about this other girl? We understand that the DA found—there‘s this other second dancer, who went with her that night. We believe she was in the house. How key is she to this case, Bruce?
BARON: She‘s unbelievably key, and I can‘t believe we haven‘t heard anything thus yet. It‘s alleged that three men raped, sodomized, choked, beat this woman for 30 minutes. But and where was this was other woman, having coffee? We didn‘t hear anything about her yet!
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Leo—Leon, don‘t you think we should hear from this other woman? Wouldn‘t that help the case?
TERRELL: Oh—oh, Rita—oh, Rita, we have to hear from the woman. But for Bruce to try to make the assumption that all the evidence should be out in the public media right now is ridiculous! The DA has not released...
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: Then how come the prosecutors are speculating that they wore condoms!
TERRELL: Oh, sir, what you have been hearing and what you‘ve been conjecturing is what the defense attorneys have been releasing!
BARON: Really?
TERRELL: The point is...
BARON: It came out of the prosecutor‘s mouth!
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: When the prosecutor needed damage control because there was no DNA, even on her dress, you know what he said?
TERRELL: You know, Rita—Rita...
BARON: He said, I think they wore a condom!
TERRELL: These are getting a pass because...
BARON: What pass! They‘re already done! Finished!
TERRELL: They got a...
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: ... the rest of their lives, whether they‘re convicted or not!
TERRELL: They should be in jail!
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: You guys, what about a polygraph? Should somebody—should she take a polygraph? Should the boys take a polygraph, Leo?
TERRELL: Yes. Let me think about that. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!
BARON: (INAUDIBLE) about the victim. Did she take one?
COSBY: Well, that‘s what I‘m asking, Bruce. Should both sides?
BARON: That‘s right! They all should!
TERRELL: Yes.
BARON: They all should take a polygraph.
TERRELL: I agree.
COSBY: And would that clear things up, Bruce, in your mind?
BARON: Oh, it—well, it wouldn‘t clear things up, but it would make things a lot better.
TERRELL: Oh, why? Why? Why?
BARON: You know, credibility is very interesting here, too. People talk about these kids, you know, what bad kids they are, the hazing and everything. You know, from my understanding and investigation, I understand four years ago, alleged this victim was—apparently stole a taxicab...
TERRELL: Don‘t talk about...
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: ... and tried to run over a cop.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: He‘s trying to trash her, Rita! Rita, he is trying to trash the victim! It doesn‘t...
BARON: I don‘t even know the victim, Leo! What is she...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Well, both of you guys—both of you...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Both of you guys, we thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: We got an interesting—someone actually was actually on the phone was us. Both of you—both of you guys are very terrific. We‘re going to have both of you back on. Very spirited.
Now to a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive. Joining me right now on the phone is the accuser‘s ex-husband. We have not heard from him at all, and we‘re withholding his name, of course, to protect the identity of the alleged victim in this case.
Sir, thank you, first of all, very much for being with us tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
COSBY: How long were you married to the accuser? And again, we‘re not releasing her name. How long? And when were you married to her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Approximately four years.
COSBY: And when did you guys get a divorce?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s been about—let‘s see, about five years ago. I‘m not exactly sure of the date or anything like that, but it‘s been exactly about five years ago.
COSBY: So you knew each other for some time. Would your ex-wife make up a story like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
COSBY: And what do you base that on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I base it on the truthfulness in her, the honesty about her.
COSBY: You know, you just saw her, I understood, last week, is that right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that‘s correct. I saw her at Wal-Mart.
COSBY: And did she mention this incident? Was it the appropriate time where she could talk to you about it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she didn‘t mention it. But I could tell something was wrong. I mean, the way I seen her, she didn‘t look the same to me. She looked like she was a little pale.
COSBY: And was there anything else about her that you thought was unusual?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me?
COSBY: Was there anything else unusual about her, any marks on her body or anything else you could...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, actually, it was just for a few moments. I didn‘t, you know, have a chance—I didn‘t look her over or anything like that. I was just, you know, glad to see her and she was glad to see me, you know? We gave each other a hug, and we spoke or whatever, and she—her and the kids left.
COSBY: When you say she looked pale, can you describe—because we spoke with her father, and he said that she looked changed after this incident. Can you describe a little more?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she was like she was spaced out sort of to me, you know? And I could tell something was wrong, but I‘m just now finding out about it. I didn‘t know anything about it.
COSBY: Now, what is your ex-wife like? And you know, I understand you guys had a bit of a rocky marriage. There was a restraining order against each other. Is she someone who would make up a story? And do you believe, sir, that she was indeed raped, if she made these allegations?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, to tell you the truth, I don‘t know what happened or anything, but I don‘t think she would make up a story like that, no. I don‘t—I mean, she‘s been pretty straight up with me, as far as I know, I mean, but I don‘t think she would just make up a lie like that, no.
COSBY: And finally, do you plan on talking to her now and talking to her about it? And what would you say? And also, what would you say to her and what would you say to the defense attorneys?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I would say that—I mean, take a long,
hard look and, you know, to be sure about how you accuse people and stuff
like that, you know what I‘m saying, because this girl could be telling the
truth, you know, whether they believe her or not. I know they‘ve been
saying that—you know, they make her out to be something that she ain‘t,
but she‘s—she‘s a real good person, you know? She‘s a hard-working
young lady, you know what I‘m saying? And I‘m not just speaking, you know,
just to try to help her out, and nobody‘s paying me to say this or
anything, but I‘m just speaking for what I know of her. She‘s a real good
she‘s a normally happy person all the time.
COSBY: Well, we thank you very much for being with us, and we appreciate it, sir. Again, this is the ex-husband of the woman who is accusing the boys on the Duke lacrosse team of rape, speaking to us exclusively tonight about her character. Thank you, sir.
And everybody, we‘re going to continue to follow this case as we wait to hear more from the district attorney about the next step in the rape investigation.
But still ahead tonight, we have new details in the Natalee Holloway case. The Dutch version of “America‘s Most Wanted” takes on the case and is releasing a sketch that could be tied to the Holloway case. We‘re going to show it to you, and it‘s coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And, tonight, Aruban police are pleading with the public for help in the search for missing Alabama teen Natalee Holloway.
We are now going to give you a first look at a Dutch TV special that is hitting the airwaves, complete with a reenactment of the night that Natalee vanished, kind of like our “America‘s Most Wanted” program. Police are asking some potential witnesses to come forward who may have key information. We are going to give you a glimpse some revealing evidence, including images of what could be Natalee Holloway‘s final car ride.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Hey, Natalie, what are you doing, girl? You‘re crazy. Get out of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Don‘t worry. They will bring me back to the hotel.
NARRATOR (through translator): But Natalee cannot be convinced. She disappears into the Aruba night.
This is the last image we have from Natalee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And live and direct tonight is Rick Segall. He is with “America‘s Most Wanted,” the program that is working hand in hand with Dutch TV on this latest special.
You know, we just saw sort of a glimpse of that surveillance tape that is sort of Natalee going off in the car. We see the car, actually. What other nuggets did you think were interesting and sort of knew?
RICK SEGALL, “AMERICA‘S MOST WANTED”: To be perfectly honest, there is—there is no real bombshells in this piece from “Opsporing Verzocht.” That—that‘s the Dutch version of “America‘s Most Wanted.”
It was kind of hard for us to believe, but the producers of the program said that, in the Netherlands, they are really not as familiar with the Natalee Holloway case as we are here. You know, here, everyone has seeing the story 10 times, if not 100. But, there, this is very much a nuts-and-bolts recreation of what happened.
We were asked by Gerald Dompig a little over a month ago if we could sort of partner up with the program, sort of serve as—as their U.S. contact, and—and go over there, do a behind-the-scenes of the program, which we did. And, also, we are sort of the liaison between them and the Holloway family.
COSBY: You know, Rick, as we were looking...
SEGALL: So, tonight...
COSBY: We were looking at some of that surveillance video, and it aired, right, tonight? So, what—what has the reaction been so far?
SEGALL: We—we spoke to producers there about an hour ago. At that point, they had received about 50 tips. Most of those had come in from the Netherlands, a few from Aruba.
But, right now, in prime time in Aruba, the—the piece is airing again. So, they are hoping that more tips are going to be coming in from Aruba, sort of interesting that, you know, this serves—in addition to giving people in the Netherlands and Aruba another good look at this case, it‘s also offering another place where tips can go.
So, if for one reason or another, people don‘t want to call their tips in to Aruba, they are able to call in to “Opsporing Verzocht.” And, also, since it was announced that we are working hand in hand with the program, we have been getting tips in, actually, from the Netherlands at “America‘s Most Wanted.” So, it has been a good partnership. And—and we are hoping something really good comes of it.
COSBY: And, really quick, they also talk about this other woman that was harassed on the beach. I want to play—this is just a few days before Natalee Holloway.
Let me play that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The 21st of May 2005, nine days before Natalee disappeared, a woman was harassed here at the beach, were close to the fisherman‘s hut by an unknown man.
We don‘t know if that has anything to do with Natalee‘s disappearance, but it might be connected to it. This is a sketch of that man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, why do you—why do you glean that they are releasing the sketch now, after all this time?
SEGALL: At—at this point, anything can help the investigation. I mean, they are looking for any nugget.
So, if the sketch could be helpful and jog somebody‘s memory, you know, that‘s great. The problem is, they went down. They did the search of the sand dunes down there with the ground-penetrating sonar. And after being down there, the last of the team went back. The Dutch forensic team went back on Friday.
So, nothing really came out of that. We just found out today that Tim Miller from Texas EquuSearch is planning on going down two weeks from now to continue his search of—of the waters off the coast of Aruba to get to that 800,000 feet and deeper.
So, again, any new bit of information that can come out of this, they‘re—they are just trying to check things off one by one...
COSBY: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
SEGALL: ... and see if they can come up with something good.
COSBY: Rick, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
Now let‘s bring in, if we could, Natalee‘s mom, Beth Holloway Twitty.
Beth, let me play real quick—this is about the tipster. This is some guy from Colombia that sounds like the—the thing that led to this big recent search. This is first time we sort of heard sort of the basis of it. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Last year, the 31st of December, 2005, we think it was a Colombian man who called. And he wanted to be anonymous. He called Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s, the last place where Natalee was seen, and he said that Natalee was buried somewhere. And we really want to get into contact with that man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Beth, how many details did you get about this tipster before? And do you put any stock in it?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Well, the only time I heard them mention—this was Caren Janssen—about a Colombian being a witness was that—it was the morning after. I believe this was probably on May 30 that there were some witnesses overheard a Colombian speaking of what he had seen during those early-morning hours.
So, I don‘t know if this is the same witness, but they—Caren Janssen was mentioning a Colombian witness had overheard some conversations at a gas station.
COSBY: Interesting.
You know, also, they talk about Deepak‘s car and show the images.
Let‘s play that clip again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Hey, Natalie, what are you doing, girl? You‘re crazy. Get out of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Don‘t worry. They will bring me back to the hotel.
NARRATOR: But Natalee cannot be convinced. She disappears into the Aruba night.
This is the last image we have from Natalee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now, did you know there was surveillance tape? And how tough is it for you to see this, too?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: You know, Rita, I will be honest. Probably, the toughest thing for me to—that I have seen during this nightmare is just a while ago, when I saw the surveillance tape of the Deepak‘s gray Honda.
And even though you cannot see any of the individuals in the car, you know, I know that she is in there. And she is fully believing that they are just returning her to the Holiday Inn hotel. How—how wrong are these three suspects to take a life like that? It‘s just—it‘s just unimaginable that they have been allowed to do this.
COSBY: And, again, this is the police version. So, this is what they say are—are the facts in the case.
It is—and it‘s tough for us to see, Beth.
You know, today attorneys representing you and also Dave did sort of a counter-filing, and this is maintaining that you want these boys, you know, to be civilly sued. This is when, of course, Joran and his family came to the United States. This is Joran and his parents.
And I want to play a little—this is just a little clip of what‘s in there, what says in the filing. It says: “For the plaintiffs, who have been subjected to intimidation, hostility and death threats, Aruba represents a corrosive and poisonous environment.”
What do you think your chances are that this case, that you will actually get your day in court with the van der Sloots or Joran in the United States, especially when the decision is expected to come mid-May, Beth?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, Rita, you know, I really don‘t have any information on that or—or thoughts as to how that will go. It‘s all in the hands of John Kelly (ph) and Scott Valber (ph) and Jerome Katz (ph).
So, you know, I just put 1000 percent confidence in them. And, you know, I just think they are the most incredible men that—that are involved with—in—in Natalee‘s life. And I‘m just grateful that I know that they know—I know they know to proceed forward. So...
COSBY: Well, Beth, our prayers are with you, as always. And thank you for being with us, I‘m sure what‘s a little bit of tough night. Thank you very much.
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Thanks. Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: And still ahead, everybody, will the show help vindicate Joran van der Sloot or implicate him in Natalee‘s disappearance? I will ask his attorney. He‘s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: If you have a story you want Rita to investigate, call our tip line, 1-877-TIP-RITA, or log on to our Web site, Rita.MSNBC.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Last year, the 31st of December 2005, we think it was a Colombian man who call, and he wanted to be anonymous. He called Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s, the last place where Natalee was seen, and he said that Natalee was buried somewhere. And we really want to get into contact with that man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And they are still looking for that man. And that was a Dutch investigator, just hours ago, asking a potentially key witness to come forward, as you heard, in the Natalee Holloway case.
It was all part of a Dutch TV special about Natalee‘s disappearance. Aruban police are hoping more witnesses come forward and share information that they may have about the night Natalee vanished.
And live on the phone right now from Aruba—and he‘s Joran van der Sloot‘s American defense attorney—Joe Tacopina.
Joe, what have you been doing down in Aruba?
JOE TACOPINA, ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Some work, Rita.
COSBY: And—and who have you been talking to, what kind of people?
TACOPINA: Witnesses. No, I mean, look...
COSBY: And what kind of witnesses?
TACOPINA: ... we have been—we have been—we...
(LAUGHTER)
TACOPINA: Myself, a group of our lawyers and—and a team of investigators led by Les Levine, a bunch of homicide detectives have been down here with us. And we have been speaking to as many witnesses as we could speak to, obviously, and—and reviewing every single document we can get our hands on.
And—and we have made a lot of progress, spent, obviously, a lot of time with our client. And—and I got to tell you, I feel as confident, Rita, as ever in this kid‘s innocence, his utter innocence. And—and we have made some very good progress. And—and, you know, I‘m—I‘m excited for a resolution in this case.
Again, I—let me say this is not as a—sort of a—a boiler plate statement, but I hope and—and pray for this Holloway family, that they get some resolve. But I also hope and pray that for the van der Sloot family, that they get some as well.
COSBY: You bet.
You know, I want to play, Joe—this is a clip from the special, where they talk about—and I found this interesting—we actually talked to this woman. And we are going to have her on our show, in fact, later on this week. This is a woman who says that she was also attacked by someone a few days on the beach at the same place where it seems that Natalee was.
And this is—it‘s interesting. They are putting out a sketch now.
Here‘s this clip from Dutch TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The 21st of May 2005, nine days before Natalee disappeared, a woman was harassed here at the beach, were close to the fisherman‘s hut by an unknown man.
We don‘t know if that has anything to do with Natalee‘s disappearance, but it might be connected to it. This is a sketch of that man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, you‘re—you‘re down there, Joe. Is this something you‘re looking into and that authorities seem to really be looking in to, that sketch?
TACOPINA: Absolutely, Rita.
And let me say, I—I—I concur with the—the new superintendent in charge of this investigation. No one knows, but here has—here has been my—my gripe all along. I came into this case, oh, two months ago. And—and what I found was an unbelievable conscious avoidance of—of evidence and information that leads to anything other than Joran van der Sloot.
And—and—and it drove me crazy. And I saw police reports and—and things, as a former homicide prosecutor, Rita, that I—you know, we would want to follow up on.
COSBY: And, Joe, really quick...
TACOPINA: The new superintendent said...
COSBY: I have got to get you real quick on the Deep—on anything interesting on Deepak. You told me right before the show something on Deepak with an instant message, real quick.
TACOPINA: Well, real quick is that, after he got out of jail and spoke to one of his friends on a computer, he acknowledged to a good friend of his that he drove Joran van der Sloot home that night. So, so much for the issue of, you know, Joran walking or not.
COSBY: Very interesting.
Joe Tacopina, thank you very much.
And, again, everybody, we have had their attorney on, Deepak and Satish‘s attorney, on the show, saying that that was not the case. But you just heard from Joe that he has actually seen an instant message where he is telling a friend that right after Deepak got out of jail.
Joe, thank you very much. We are going to talk with you when you come back.
And, when we come back, everybody, is this Dutch TV really going to help, or is it just lip service from the Aruban and Dutch governments?
That‘s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: New hope in the Natalee Holloway mystery tonight. Will a Dutch TV reenactment of the teen‘s last night in Aruba finally help police figure out what happened to her?
Here again is the clip from that Dutch TV program asking anyone with information to come forward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Hey, Natalie, what are you doing, girl? You‘re crazy. Get out of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Don‘t worry. They will bring me back to the hotel.
NARRATOR (through translator): But Natalee cannot be convinced. She disappears into the Aruba night.
This is the last image we have from Natalee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining us now is former prosecutor Lisa Pinto and also criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Jayne, do you think that this is going to help? Let me put up the sketch, because I think this is interesting. They‘re putting out this sketch. It seems very strange. You know, this is, you know, many, many, you know, months after the fact, by far, almost a year after the fact. This is a woman who was on the beach, who says that this guy harassed her and tried to expose himself, do something, same beach where Natalee was.
Could this be tied at all, Jayne, or is this a red herring?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It‘s neither, Rita.
I mean, it‘s uncorroborated, too late, too little. It‘s nothing. It‘s—it‘s anonymous tips coming from nowhere that couldn‘t be—it couldn‘t serve as—as an—an affidavit. It couldn‘t serve as any substance. There‘s no evidence here.
Look, in a perfect world, everybody would wish that the Holloways could know what happened to Natalee. That is not going to happen here.
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: You had Ernie Allen on the other night, Rita.
COSBY: But, Lisa, in this case...
LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Jayne...
COSBY: In this case, we know that this woman did come forward. We spoke to this woman.
PINTO: Right.
COSBY: Albeit, you know, it still seems—I mean, look, it‘s—it‘s almost—it‘s almost a year the fact that you‘re putting this out. Why, Lisa?
PINTO: Well, you know, Lita Sullivan—you remember the Atlanta socialite murder, the woman who was killed over 15, 20 years ago. That case was solved, based on tips from “America‘s Most Wanted.”
Viewers called in Thailand and Costa Rica to say, we have seen that guy. We know where he is. Come and get him.
Another woman came forward and said, oh, by the way...
WEINTRAUB: Lisa, this is not identified.
PINTO: But, Jayne, the point is, 20 years later, that case was solved, based on a TV show. It could happen here.
COSBY: All right.
PINTO: I don‘t want to get Mrs. Twitty‘s hopes up, but 50 tips are very useful information. People, there is a woman who saw four guys burying a body.
WEINTRAUB: Oh, do you believe that, Lisa?
COSBY: You guys, let me talk—let me talk about another tip, you guys, because the Dutch TV program also talked about a Colombian man. And Beth just corroborated that she also heard this from the prosecutor.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: This is a guy who apparently called Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s with a tip about Natalee. And now they want to find that man again.
Listen—at least listen to the program. Then we will get you guys to react.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “OPSPORING VERZOCHT”)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Last year, the 31st of December, 2005, we think it was a Colombian man who called. And he wanted to be anonymous. He called Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s, the last place where Natalee was seen, and he said that Natalee was buried somewhere. And we really want to get into contact with that man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Lisa, again...
WEINTRAUB: This tipster, Rita...
COSBY: Yes, well, that‘s why—that‘s a good point.
WEINTRAUB: ... he may be Colombian.
COSBY: Right.
WEINTRAUB: I mean, it‘s ridiculous. This is a tale...
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: ... tabloids.
COSBY: The only thing—the only thing that was interesting is, Beth just said she was told the same thing from prosecutors.
But, again, Jayne, is it just grasping for straws at this point?
WEINTRAUB: It is totally grasping for straws. There is no evidence. The family needs to go forward, as hard as that is to say and to mean, because you know what, Rita? There are thousands of kids in America...
COSBY: When you say go forward, Jayne, what do you mean by go forward?
WEINTRAUB: I think that the family needs to—to have some personal grief time and go forward with their lives.
This case, there is no case. This case should be closed. We should be surfacing and using all of these resources for kids that can be found.
PINTO: Dr. Jayne, Dr. Jayne...
WEINTRAUB: Lisa...
PINTO: ... since when is there a one-year statute of limitations on murder, for goodness‘ sake?
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: Can I say one thing, Lisa?
PINTO: This case should stay open for as long as it takes to find out who it was...
WEINTRAUB: Let it stay open.
PINTO: ... who was the last person to see Natalee Holloway alive, and where her body is.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: All right, you guys, let me get you to react to this, because I thought this was significant.
Joe Tacopina, Joran van der Sloot‘s attorney, just, I thought, passed on some pretty heavy information. We have had the attorney from Deepak and Satish on our show before. And he has said that the boys did not take Joran home. We just heard from Joe Tacopina, who is in Aruba, he said that he has seen an instant message with Deepak telling a friend that he took Joran home.
Lisa—who is lying here, Lisa?
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me get Lisa.
Lisa, who is lying?
PINTO: One thing for sure we know about Joran is that he has lied about stuff. He admits that himself.
We don‘t know much else, except that he was with Natalee, and as he—in his own words, he cuddled with her. So, I would respectfully argue that the Aruban police shouldn‘t give up on him just yet, despite what Mr. Tacopina says. We don‘t know who killed her. We certainly don‘t know at this point.
But as long as this TV program starts sparking people‘s memories, perhaps witnesses will come forward, forensic evidence will develop.
COSBY: All right, guys. That‘s going to have be...
PINTO: Let‘s not close this case just yet.
COSBY: Going to have be the last word, both of you. We will have you on...
WEINTRAUB: If she weren‘t a beautiful, blonde, white girl, we wouldn‘t be talking about this tabloid tale anymore.
PINTO: Oh, that‘s irrelevant.
WEINTRAUB: There‘s no...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Well, I would hope that we would cover any case, especially, guys, any...
PINTO: That‘s irrelevant.
COSBY: ... American missing in a foreign country in a case that has been, certainly, questionably handled. Guys, we absolutely would cover it.
Everybody, we are going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And, again, today, the district attorney saying he‘s going forward with the case, the accusations coming from a woman who went to that house.
And, again, we want to remind you that we want to also hear from you on this case. Is there a question that you want answered about the Duke University gang rape investigation? Send us your questions to Rita@MSNBC.com, or you can log on to our Web site at Rita.MSNBC.com. We definitely want to hear from you on this interesting case that is still developing, it seems, every day.
And, everybody, also, coming up tomorrow night, Natalee‘s father says there‘s much more to the story than is being told about his daughter‘s disappearance. Dave Holloway is going to join us to discuss why he has written a new book to continue his mission to find answers about what happened to Natalee on the island of Aruba. And if you have any questions for Dave, also be sure to send them into our Web site, again, Rita@MSNBC.com.
And that is going to be tomorrow night on “LIVE & DIRECT.”
That does it for me tonight.
Now let‘s go to “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY,” with Michael Smerconish filling in for Joe.
Good to see you, Michael.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
END
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