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'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for November 17

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

Guest: Dave Holloway, Jamie Skeeters, Harold Copus, Jossy Mansur, Pat Rutherford, Donald McKinney, Tom Morris, Connie Farlow, Tiffany Koenig, Dom Giordano, Stacey Honowitz, Jayne Weintraub, Ken Mansfield

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Right now, we‘re following developments in the hunt for two escaped cons.  One of them is back behind bars.  Where is the other one?  And you‘ll hear the chilling interview with the man who killed John Lennon.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  (INAUDIBLE) a runaway train.  There was no stopping it.


COSBY:  Plus, part of my exclusive interview with Yoko Ono.

But first, some new twists in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  There‘s lots of new information to report tonight, including a newspaper reporter who claims to have spotted Natalee in Aruba with dyed hair, and also a trip into the world of sex trade by investigators working with TV talk show host Dr. Phil.

But we begin with the mysterious phone call from someone sounding like the Alabama teen.  This is how Natalee‘s mom, Beth Holloway Twitty, described the call earlier today on Dr. Phil‘s show.


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE‘S MOTHER:  It almost sounds as if it‘s a foreigner.  And they say, yes, and then you hear—it‘s almost like a clank, like they‘re shifting the phone.  And then there‘s music playing in the background, and I hear what to me is a very subdued vocal utterance from Natalee.  It‘s almost as if -- - it‘s almost—I know, it‘s almost as if it‘s, Hi, mom.


COSBY:  And so just how important is this call to the investigation?  Joining me now live is Natalee‘s father, Dave Holloway.  He‘s actually listened to that recorded message.  Dave, do you think that Beth believes that this possibly could be Natalee?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE‘S FATHER:  Well, I‘m not really sure, Rita.  I listened to the recording several times, and I really couldn‘t make anything out of it.  You know, Beth‘s a speech therapist, and she seems to think that there possibly could be something to it, but I‘ve kind of dismissed it.

COSBY:  Yes.  Let me play a little bit more about what she said actually on Dr. Phil‘s show about this call, Dave.


TWITTY:  I‘m a pediatric speech pathologist, and I‘ve done this for 22 years.  This was my trained profession of hearing the utterance on this voice-mail, thinking that it was her.

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TALK SHOW HOST:  Our analyst said, you know, forget about what they talked about on television on “CSI” and that sort of thing.  The only person‘s ever going to be able to tell if that‘s Natalee is her mother.


COSBY:  You know, Dave, as you just (INAUDIBLE) she said she‘s a speech pathologist.  She said she‘s heard it.  Is there a remote chance that this could be Natalee, or is she just grasping for straws and hoping, like we all are, that she‘s alive?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I think a lot of is, is, you know, we‘re all stressed out and we‘re probably grasping for straws.  But you always hold out the hope, Rita.  You know, as you recall, we had this Hurricane Katrina came through, and it messed up all of our phone lines in the Southeast.  And we had calls skipping across other calls.  And this was on a cell phone, and a lot of our cell phone towers were down.

When I listened to the recording, it was hard for me to determine what was being said.  And I‘ve listened to it several times and basically dismissed it because I have children, and every time we lay the cell phone down, they‘ll pick it up and either dial numbers or whatever.  And it may have been something that was in someone‘s purse and accidentally called.

You know, there‘s a lot of different theories and speculations, but you know, who knows?  It did not show up on a—on her bill, so I indicated that if it did show up from a foreign country or whatever, then maybe we could look at it a little bit further.  The FBI has recorded it off the cell phone, and they are in the process of analyzing it.  We have not heard any results yet.

COSBY:  So Dave, they were not able to trace what country or where it came from at all?  Is that what you‘re telling me?

HOLLOWAY:  Yes, that‘s true.  You know, our cell phones, when you receive an incoming call, it‘ll record where the call came from.  During this hurricane, we had crossover telephone calls.  You‘d be talking to someone, and all of a sudden, you‘d be talking to someone else you didn‘t even know.  So I‘m thinking that may be the problem, but who knows?  You can‘t ever tell.

COSBY:  What is it?  Was somebody talking?  Because it was sort of an inference that maybe the person said, Hi, Mom.  Could you even discern that from what you heard?

HOLLOWAY:  You know, it was about six weeks ago when that recording was made.  And like I said, I listened to it four or five times and I didn‘t feel like it was anything.  I thought it—you know, she had to basically tell me what was being said.  After all, I was calling long be distance to her cell phone, and I had a little bit of a static in my cell phone, as well, or the regular phone.  So I was calling her phone to listen to her voice-mail, so I didn‘t really have a good—a good clear voice over the phone.  But again...

COSBY:  And real quick, Dave...

HOLLOWAY:  ... she allowed the...

COSBY:  Why didn‘t you want it played on the Dr. Phil show?  Because maybe there‘s some clue or maybe there‘s something in there to rule it in or out.

HOLLOWAY:  You know, the FBI‘s got it, so—and they‘re analyzing it, so that‘s where we left it.

COSBY:  All right, Dave, stick with us, because of course, we‘ve heard a lot of talk about the possibility of Natalee Holloway being part of the sex trade.  Dr. Phil says even though those chances are slim, the sex slave industry could hold some clues.


DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TALK SHOW HOST:  This is one of the world‘s best kept secrets, and it‘s estimated by some to be a $7-billion-a-year industry involving over a million abductees, and 100,000 of them are trafficked into island nations like Aruba.  Now, I personally believe that until Natalee is found dead, we have to also consider the possibility that she could be alive.


COSBY:  And LIVE AND DIRECT tonight are three of the men who appeared with Beth Holloway Twitty on Dr. Phil‘s show, polygraph examiner Jamie Skeeters, also former FBI hostage negotiator and MSNBC analyst Clint Van Zandt, and former FBI agent Harold Copus.  All three men have been investigating Natalee‘s disappearance extensively.

Jamie, let me start with you because now you‘ve been on the show, you can talk about what was there.  Tell us about some of your travels to Mexico and Venezuela.  What did you see?  What were you going for?

JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER:  Well, we visited several countries, and we looked at several brothels and we looked at many, many prostitutes.  And we were looking for a white female, English-speaking, that would be between the ages of 15 and 20.

COSBY:  And did you find any of them?

SKEETERS:  No, we did not.  We did not find anybody that met that—we met one white girl that was Russian, but not—it wasn‘t Natalee.

COSBY:  You know, Jamie, what did the houses look like that you went into?  I can‘t imagine what it looked like.

SKEETERS:  Actually, we have videos of it.  Actually, very clean, very neat, very red, plush, as you would expect a—well, a prostitution house to look like that caters to people with money.

COSBY:  So these were sort of for wealthy clientele, Jamie?

SKEETERS:  Yes.  Yes.  I‘ve worked vice for 38 years, and I‘ve seen whorehouses that are in apartments and homes, but these were plush.

COSBY:  You know, Clint, you‘ve talked about the sex trade sort of theory for some time.  How prominent is the sex trade industry, particularly in these islands?  I‘ve been hearing, you know, Curacao, Aruba, Venezuela, that sort of chain there.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR, MSNBC ANALYST:  Yes, very much.  You know, some of the statistics Dr. Phil used came from one of the articles that I wrote on “Profiler‘s Perspective.”  As you know, that‘s my column that I write.  And he‘s right.  I mean, it‘s estimated to be, you know, $7 billion.  There is between one and four million women and children that are bought, sold, traded, tricked, married into or simply kidnapped into the sex trade, into bondage throughout the world.  That‘s one of the dirty little secrets that goes on all over this planet that most you know, most countries just kind of turn a deaf ear to.

So you know, the reality is, yes, there are women, there are teenagers that are carried into this every day, every year.  But is there evidence to suggest that Natalee Holloway herself is in it?  I think that‘s why Dr.  Phil suggests the need for this two-track investigation.  Track number one said, Yes, it‘s the three guys in Aruba.  That‘s who did it.  Stay on them.  Track number two said, But let‘s not miss anything.  Let‘s make sure we don‘t miss any other part of this investigation.  And as you know, most people feel the Arubans have missed a lot in their investigation.

COSBY:  Yes, boy!  You know, Harold, you‘ve been down to Aruba, as I have been.  I know we talked a bit when both of us were there.  You know, most tourists, they go, they see this beautiful part of the island, but there‘s a pretty sort of seedy, interesting side, as a lot of islands have.  Walk us through what you see sort of on the other side of the island.

HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT:  Well, what you see on that other side of the island is nothing like the part where the tourists will see.  It‘s as third world as anything you‘d ever believe.  It‘s rocky.  Looks like a moonscape on one side of you, and then something out of our Southwest, where it looks desert, with cactus plants.  It is pretty barren and pretty hard (ph) and remote.

COSBY:  And there‘s also, what, some drug houses, some other things. 

Let‘s talk about some of the sort of illegal activity, Harold.

COPUS:  Well, what happens on that particular island—we found an individual that is reputed to be one of the ecstasy teens (ph).  He lives in an area that is very remote.  He has a wall goes around his home that‘s at least six, seven feet high that‘s got wire across it, cameras.  It looks like anything that I would have done years ago, when we would hit a house working with DEA.  No problem there.  You also have brothels there.  It‘s a pretty dangerous place when you get away from the tourist area.

COSBY:  Yes, it absolutely is.  Guys, if you could, stick with us because I want to bring into the conversation Pat Rutherford.  He‘s a private investigator who looks into cases of missing and kidnapped people and has traveled to a lot of remote and dangerous parts of the world to do so.

Pat, it‘s good to have you back with us.  Sort of describe for our viewers how the sex trade works.  How does somebody go from being in a bar, potentially, to ending up in a brothel?

PAT RUTHERFORD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Rita, it‘s so common that most people don‘t realize what‘s happening.  What‘s happening is that it‘s rampant down in Mexico and down in South America, and you‘ve got to send in not the pretty little white faces to go down there and look, but you‘ve got to work with the local people.  You‘ve got to have boots on the ground.  And when you get a taste of where someone is, you‘ve got to send in the troops.  It‘s got to be planned like a military operation.  You don‘t want them to know that you‘re coming in, that you‘re inspecting the brothels or anything else.  It‘s a whole different ballgame.  It‘s nothing like up here in the States.

COSBY:  It‘s a pretty dangerous operation, Pat, it sounds.

RUTHERFORD:  Tremendously dangerous.  We brought you a tape today where Logan Clark (ph), who I think‘s the best in the world—he‘s one of our team members.  We‘ve done kidnappings out of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, around the world, actually, did one in Costa Rica.  And they had to get a helicopter, and they went up in the helicopter.  He had to carry an AK-47.  It‘s a different world down there.

But you want to work through the boots on the ground.  They‘re the ones that can find out.  So you have your meetings, you get together, you plan the attack, you tell them what you‘re after, who you‘re after, pictures, everything else, and let them be your eyes.  Let them be your ears because they‘ll get paid for it.  It‘s called Mardito (ph).  It works.

COSBY:  Yes, actually, right.  You‘re greasing both hands and palm.  Let me bring in Dave Holloway because, Dave, you know, Dr. Phil talked about, saying that, Look, we do have to do these sort of two parallel tracks.  I want to show what Dr. Phil said today and then get your response, Dave.  Here‘s Dr. Phil.


MCGRAW:  ... want to find that body, and there are so many dedicated people working to get that done.  I‘m not saying that we should stop that and start this.  We need to consider everything.  We need to look everywhere.


COSBY:  So Dave, do you believe, as Dr. Phil‘s suggesting, that we got to look at all options?

HOLLOWAY:  I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Phil.  He‘s done a tremendous job in Aruba, and I commend him for what he‘s done so far.

COSBY:  He absolutely has.  And at this point, Dave, is there anything you can exclude?

HOLLOWAY:  No.  I mean, the investigation is proceeding on.  You know, as far as the Aruban police and those people, we‘ve provided our declaration, and we‘ve indicated to the government that, you know, something‘s going to have to change.  The police force has not gotten the job done.  We‘ve seen a lot of bungling of evidence, conflicts of interest.  And we put together a declaration asking the government to consider one option, and that‘s, you know, take the prosecutor, the—several cold case detectives and possibly a secretary, place them in the attorney general‘s office, and maybe we can get somewhere.

COSBY:  And hopefully, there might be some changes in that department.  All right, Dave, thank you very much.  Everybody, if you could, stick with us because when we come back, another shocking claim.  Someone says they saw Natalee in Aruba after she vanished.  That‘s ahead, and it‘s just the beginning of tonight‘s show.

Still ahead: One down, one to go.  Half of the convict duo that broke out of prison is back behind bars.  How‘d they nab him?  His mother joins me live as cops search for his partner in crime.

And cops make a big find inside the home of a teenager accused of killing his girlfriend‘s parents, an arsenal of weapons.  Plus, we found new details about the girl.  Is she still considered a victim in the case?

And the madman who killed John Lennon.  Is Mark David Chapman sorry for what he did?  Plus, hear what Yoko Ono told me about Lennon‘s killer.  It‘s coming up.



TWITTY:  He was saying that, you know, they had dyed her hair, and what they were doing was moving her from home to home on the island.  Once they were getting close and about to break in to find her, then they were tipped off and that she was moved.


COSBY:  That was Beth on Dr. Phil‘s show today.  Well, one person who claims to have seen Natalee alive after the night that she vanished is a reporter for one of Aruba‘s local newspapers.  Just who is this person, and how involved have they been in the case?  LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is the person‘s boss, managing editor of “Diario” newspaper, Jossy Mansur.

Jossy, who is this person, and how long have they been talking to Beth?

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, “DIARIO”:  You know, he is—his name is Hubert Teel (ph).  He‘s been on the case from the beginning.  He spent about between five-and-a-half months to practically all six months investigating the possibility that Natalee is still alive and on the island.

COSBY:  And what‘d he come up with?  Because according to what Beth was saying, he says that he believes he spotted her a couple of times with, what, dyed hair?

MANSUR:  Well, he‘s come to the office to us.  He‘s come up with some photos where Natalee appears with black hair, differently cut, with dark glasses.  But he hasn‘t come up with any kind of evidence that for us in the “Diario” is believable enough to pursue this angle of investigation further.  He‘s left it for a while, and now he‘s back on it because he believes that he‘s still on the track of whoever is holding Natalee, according to him, on Aruba.

COSBY:  Yes, and in fact, according to Beth, what Beth was saying today, this guy was saying that Natalee may have even escaped, that there may have been some different issues.  Let‘s show a little bit more about how sort of Beth describes what this guy relayed to her.


TWITTY:  He wouldn‘t even approach me because he didn‘t trust that I would keep this confidential because he said that every time he felt that he was close to seeing if this young lady was actually Natalee, then the authorities would come in and just destroy everything that he had—was setting up.


COSBY:  So Jossy, again, is this guy a credible reporter?  Is there anything credible about what he‘s been giving to you guys?

MANSUR:  Well, he‘s credible enough in his line of work.  He‘s a sports reporter.  He took a personal interest in this case from the beginning...

COSBY:  Is he a credible guy, Jossy?  He has a credible reputation?

MANSUR:  He is credible in what he does, but in this case, you know, I have to look at it from a very serious point of view and consider that in five-and-a-half months of investigating, of following cars, cars that change tags, numbers, people that disappear, people that came into this investigation, I mean, it becomes a little fuzzy for me to follow.  And I haven‘t seen any evidence of this brought forward so far to tell me that Natalee is alive and in Aruba.  And that‘s our hope.  We hope she is alive.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  You bet.  Let me bring in, if I could, Natalee‘s father, Dave Holloway, to the conversation, Jossy.  Yes, Dave, did you hear about this report at all?  And do you put any stock into what he‘s saying?

HOLLOWAY:  I heard a little bit about it early on, but I hadn‘t heard anything since.  I heard that they mentioned that a helicopter came down or whatever, and that‘s when I threw that theory out the window.

COSBY:  Yes, is this another grasping for straws, Dave?  Is this another sort of reaching?

HOLLOWAY:  Possibly so.  There‘s only two helicopters on the island.  One is a private helicopter that ferries tourists around the island, and the other is a police helicopter.  So if a helicopter picked her up and carried her off, then the airport authority would surely know about it.

COSBY:  You know, Jossy, do you agree that the sort of the helicopter is one of the tip-offs?  And one of the other things this reporter is sort of saying, as relayed by Beth, is that he was afraid to say anything to the police there because he was fearing they were putting up roadblocks.  Do you still feel they‘re clearly putting up roadblocks?

MANSUR:  I haven‘t seen any kind of—I haven‘t heard any kind of news as far as roadblocks are concerned.  And I happen to agree with Dave, you know?  We—inside the “Diario,” we have more or less discarded this theory in view—in the fact of other things that we are aware of from the beginning of the case—admissions, counter-accusations, one accuses the other, I mean, things that are hard, black-and-white evidence in the police record.  So that contradicts this theory to a degree that it makes it rather unbelievable.

COSBY:  Yes, absolutely.  Both of you, if you could, stick with us because, of course, the big question is, How credible are these claims on Dr. Phil‘s show that Natalee Holloway may still be alive?  And where does the investigation go from here?  I want to bring back in our panel of investigators.

Clint, what do you do with this kind of information, particularly that this guy said?

VAN ZANDT:  Yes.  Well, You know, I‘m at the position—I talked to this—I talked to Beth about this last week—too, that, you know, Americans, we‘re kidding ourselves if we think the Arubans are ever going to turn this over to the FBI.  I mean, that‘s—it‘s not going to happen.  We wouldn‘t turn it over to them in America.

But what I think could be done—and you know, Dave‘s comment on this is great.  You know, the Arubans have botched this.  They‘ve mishandled it.  They haven‘t managed it well.  So I mean, for me, I‘d like to see a team of Dutch detectives come in, Dutch profilers.  I‘ve worked with the Dutch profilers.  They‘re good at what they do.  Bring in a whole new team and work this as a cold case.  Let the Dutch come in, take over, run the case.

COSBY:  Let me interrupt you because I see Jossy shaking his head. 

Jossy, why are you shaking your head?

MANSUR:  Because the main problem with this whole case are the Dutch judges.  I mean, the rulings that we‘ve seen that are contrary to whatever reason may exist in the world.  I mean, how can this man—because a suspect—the main suspect just exposes his desire to continue with his studies, he puts everything else aside and just sends him off to Holland.

COSBY:  So Harold, how do we solve it?  What‘s your advice?

COPUS:  Well, I agree with Clint and disagree there with Jossy.  I think the difference is that—let‘s get the Dutch in there because, after all, that‘s the best we have.  They‘re probably more neutral, in some sense of the word, from the investigators...


COSBY:  But Harold, don‘t you think Jossy makes a good point?  I mean, the fact is, Joran‘s going to school there.  No one seems to be concerned.  They‘ve even said that they don‘t—you know, the Arubans (INAUDIBLE) they don‘t have the authority.  The Dutch do.  It seems like everyone‘s sort of passing it off.

COPUS:  Well, they are, and—but you have to have somebody because the way it‘s going right now, the police down there now, in my mind and Clint‘s and some others, have totally botched it.  We‘ve got to get a fresh look at it.  And it‘s critical, and the longer we wait, the harder it‘s going to be.

COSBY:  You know, Dave, you want to see a change, what, in the prosecution team?  Is that even realistic, do you think?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I don‘t know.  You know, I think that with this boycott issue coming up, with all the inconsistencies in the investigation, the conflicts of interest and just a host of all the things, I think that if a new team came in, a qualified team that has no conflicts or anything like that, that would put water on a lot of this.  It‘d put water on the fire.

COSBY:  It‘d be a good, fresh start, too.  Hey, Jamie, speaking of fresh starts, the other night, you were on our show.  You held up the disk.  This is this audio recording, that interview that you did, that great interview you did with Deepak, which he basically says, We all had sex with her, and made some other pretty strong revelations.  Where‘s the disk now, Jamie?

SKEETERS:  It‘s no longer in my possession and...

COSBY:  Well, that‘s a good sign!

SKEETERS:  It was delivered to the FBI, the Ventura (ph) office.  I talked with Clint yesterday on it.  They have it.  The FBI has it, and they‘re going to take care of it.

COSBY:  When did they get it...


COSBY:  Yes, when did they get it, Jamie?

SKEETERS:  At 9:30 this morning Pacific time, and that‘s the best hands it could be in.

COSBY:  And how long is it going to take them, Jamie?  Did they give you any guidance, until they go through this?  Of course, they‘re doing it because the Dutch say their version isn‘t clean, they need to look through another version.  We all thought that we‘d have the answers a long, long time ago.  But did you get a timeframe?

SKEETERS:  Yes, I did.  I talked with one of the special agents last night, and they were going to immediately send it over to the scientific lab for testing right away.  And not only that, Rita, I also have (INAUDIBLE) hand delivering a copy of the tapes to an individual, Brooks (ph) Institute in Santa Barbara.  And Brooks Institute—he‘s chairperson for forensic scientific photography.  We‘ve used them before.  They‘re the best in the world.  He‘s going to examine the tapes, as well.

COSBY:  So he‘s going to do that independently, Jamie?

SKEETERS:  He‘s doing that tomorrow morning.

COSBY:  All right.  So we should, hopefully, get some answers on that soon.  Clint, where do we go from here?

VAN ZANDT:  Yes, well, you know, Jamie did the right thing with this.  Get it in the hands of the FBI and let them validate it, and then put this validated copy in front of the Arubans.  You know, number two, let‘s get this new case in.  I mean, you know, if we‘re going to boycott Aruba and everything else, well, you know, this is not going to last forever.  Get the Dutch in, get the FBI supporting the Dutch, work it as a cold case.  And then if that new combination can‘t solve this, then they got to figure out where they‘re going from now.

But you know, to have—the Aruban authorities don‘t seem to be moving forward anymore.  They—some of them have already made up their mind what has happened to her.  That‘s not going to solve this case.

COSBY:  Dave, final words.  Where do we go from here?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I agree with Jossy.  Maybe we ought to replace the judge, as well.

COSBY:  Replace the whole team, it sounds like!


COSBY:  All right, guys.  Thank you very much, all of you.  And of course, I‘m sure you‘ll all keep us posted on everything.  Dave, thank you, especially, so much.

And still ahead, everybody: One of two convicts who broke out of prison is back behind bars.  Is he providing clues as to where his other partner in crime may be hiding out?

And a big find inside the home of a teen accused of murdering his girlfriend‘s parents, an enormous gun collection.  The shocking new details are coming up.


COSBY:  An all-points bulletin tonight for escaped inmate Robert Legendre.  Still on the loose after a daring prison break.  His accomplice, Martin Moon was captured in Illinois today after police found him sleeping on the side of the road. 

We‘ll have reaction to the capture from Moon‘s family, in just a moment. 

But first, we‘re joined on the phone by police Chief Don McKinney of Chester, Illinois.  Chief, where did you find him? 

CHIEF DONALD MCKINNEY, CHESTER, ILLINOIS POLICE DEPARTMENT:  We found him early this morning at 3:00 on a small gravel road that borders the city of Chester and Menard Correctional Center, it‘s called Fern Valley Road.  He was about halfway between Illinois Route 3 and River Road, just north of Menard Correctional Center.

COSBY:  You know, as you pointed out, he was near a correctional center.  Why did he pick that spot of all places? 

MCKINNEY:  Well, all day we‘ve kind of been hashing that out and trying to figure it out.  But, I think it was just his bad luck for the most part.  We don‘t see any ties or anything that relates to Menard Correctional Center from Mr. Moon. 

Just that at that time in the morning, he‘d had enough driving and wanted to wait until later in the morning before crossing the bridge and going into Missouri.  So, he just pulled off on that little gravel road right before he got to Chester.

COSBY:  Now, I understand when police went to arrest him, he tried to escape.  Tell us about that. 

MCKINNEY:  That‘s correct.  When the officer from Chester walked up aside the vehicle, which was parked off the road on a small concrete platform, he knocked on the window to get his attention because he was asleep and the temperature was rather low.  It was about 19 degrees this morning. 

When he did get a response back from Mr. Moon, he observed it, that it was in fact a police officer.  He didn‘t like that one.  He started the engine and put it in reverse and started backing up real fast to get away. 

Well, he didn‘t realize that where he was, was in a precarious situation.  And he backed the car off to the point where it got stuck on that concrete, what used to be a foundation.  When the vehicle got the stuck there, he exited the vehicle quickly and ran off into the woods. 

Right away, we started mobilizing a force using the rest of the Chester Police Department.  Steelville sent a K-9 officer over.  And Randolph County responded about 25, 30 minutes later.  The dog was there.  In about another 20 minutes, we tracked him to a tree and we found him in a tree. 

COSBY:  Great, and chief, really quick, he didn‘t give info where his partner in crime is, right? 

MCKINNEY:  No, no ma‘am, he did not give anything.  For all intents right now, they separated, I guess.  From what they‘re saying, quite awhile north of us. 

COSBY:  All right, thank you, chief, very much. 

MCKINNEY:  You‘re very welcome. 

COSBY:  The big question is, did these two inmates have any help in escaping?  Five years ago, Martin Moon‘s girlfriend, Kimberly Ann Mitchell, tried to help break him out of prison.  This is Kimberly in these photos that she sent to Moon while he was in prison.  Could she, or someone else, perhaps, have been helping them out this time around?

We‘re joined now by Tiffany Koenig, she‘s Martin Moon‘s former attorney.  Also, Tom Morris of the TV show “America‘s Most Wanted.”  And on the phone with us right now is Martin Moon‘s mother, Connie Farlow.

I want to start with Tom, because Tom, tell us about this escape in 2000 with the same guy.

TOM MORRIS, AMERICA‘S MOST WANTED:  In 2000, when Moon was in the Clark County, Iowa, jail, he was mailed a package from, allegedly from, Kimberly Mitchell. 

In that package was a pair of flip flops that were cut in half and had hacksaw blades slipped inside them and $300.  He apparently had bragged to some of the inmates in the jail.  It‘s a very small jail, about an eight-bed jail in the courthouse in Clark County, Iowa. 

She was subsequently charged with aiding him in his attempt to escape from the jail during trial.  He was then trailed for the murder, right then.

COSBY:  She‘s a fugitive, right?  As we look at these pictures of her. 

She‘s on the run, right? 

HARRIS:  She‘s been a fugitive for five years, since 2000.  She was charged on June 27, 2000, with aiding Martin Moon in trying to escape from the Clark County Jail.  And she has not been seen since. 

COSBY:  And we‘re looking, I think this is some of the stuff that was taken, hidden in those shoes.  Those were the hacksaw blades, also some cash.  There it is, those are pictures. 

Some pretty incredible stuff.  You know, Connie, do you think that Martin maybe was trying to look for his girlfriend, for Mitchell?  Do you think that‘s where he was running to now? 

CONNIE FARLOW, MARTIN MOON‘S MOTHER:  Well, I have no idea.  It‘s kind of surprising that he‘s headed down that way.  My first thought was that he was just trying to get out of the cold.  It‘s so cold right now, that he ran away.  I know he‘s not had any contact with her. 

COSBY:  He has not? 

FARLOW:  No, and I think if he had, wouldn‘t they have those letters there at Fort Madison?  Don‘t they check all the mail? 

COSBY:  Yes, they definitely do.  But, of course, you know, if it‘s just a love letter, they can‘t screen it.  You know, Tiffany, do you remember this woman?  Mitchell at all?  Do you remember her when you were dealing with him before? 

TIFFANY KOENIG, MARTIN MOON‘S ATTORNEY:  I never actually had any personal contact with her.  I know that there was some letters and some phone contact.  So really, she was never really a presence in our trial as far as contacts. 

COSBY:  What are the nature of their relationship?  These pictures are kind of sexy pictures to send an inmate. 

KOENIG:  Well, that‘s the first time I‘ve ever seen those pictures. 

COSBY:  They‘re pretty interesting photos.  These are ones that she actually sent to him.  There‘s one that‘s very, sort of, seductive, from “America‘s Most Wanted.”

What‘s your reaction?  I mean, this clearly, obviously a romantic-type relationship.  Really, interest on her part.  Right, Tiffany?

KOENIG:  Certainly, I think those pictures show that. 

COSBY:  What kind of a guy was Martin Moon when you represented him? 

Do you think you‘re going to be asked to represent him again in this case? 

KOENIG:  Every time that I—I spent a lot of time with Martin down at the jail.  He was always very polite, very respectful.  Just was a very quiet and shy person.  Certainly took everything that we said into account.  And again, was just extremely polite.  As far as whether I would be able to represent him again, certainly that would be up to the court.  Whoever the court feels should be appointed to represent him on these new charges. 

COSBY:  You know, I want to play a comment.  This is from the Iowa governor, who says he‘s going to look into an investigation as to why these guys escaped.  Let‘s play that if we could. 


GOV. TOM VILSACK (D), IOWA):  What‘s important for the people of Iowa to know is that we are being very diligent and thorough in our review of security procedures at that prison.  And it is my intention and the director‘s attention to hold those who failed to do their jobs, accountable.  That will absolutely take place. 


COSBY:  Connie, as you hear this, do you think that someone helped your son escape? 

FARLOW:  No, I really don‘t think anybody helped him at all.  I mean, other than that guy that was with him that helped make that grappling thing. 

COSBY:  What was your reaction when you heard that he was arrested and sleeping, actually, near a correctional facility? 

FARLOW:  I thought that kind of strange.  I was just so happy to hear that he had been caught unharmed and I‘d like to thank the Chester Police for not firing up on my son. 

COSBY:  Absolutely.  Where do you think he was headed? 

FARLOW:  I don‘t know.  It‘s looking almost like maybe he was headed towards Tennessee, since he was down that far.  But I‘m sure he‘s not had any contact with her. 

COSBY:  All right, well we thank you.  Again, I am happy that he got in safe and sound.  Also, all of you thank you very much.  Tom, also you this for sharing your stuff from “America‘s Most Wanted.”

Also to another case now.  Some startling developments in the case of David Ludwig.  He‘s the 18-year-old Pennsylvania teenager accused of shooting his 14-year-old girlfriend‘s parents to death. 

New court documents are revealing what police found while searching his home.  And that includes, get this, 54 guns. 

Joining me now is Philadelphia radio talk show host, Dom Giordano.  Dom, what‘s your reaction, 54 guns?  I know that family are hunters, but this is excessive.

DOM GIORDANO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  Well, Rita, the reaction of listeners is, maybe it‘s not so excessive.  But, they‘re looking into the accountability issue around this, with this young man and his parents.  The community says they‘re upstanding, very responsible, church-going, et cetera.

But what kind of access did he have to these guns?  And did he notice that one or two of them might be missing, is an issue that‘s out there tonight.

COSBY:  That‘s a good point.  Like, what are parents roles.

You know, I want to show some of the other things, Dom, that were taken out.  Police found, this is when they searched his home, 54 guns, boxes of ammunition.  Also, a Hewlett Packard laptop.  Obviously, looking at the conversations.

Are people surprised, Dom, you know, sort of two different sides?  On one hand, we were hearing the other night that the girl, Kara Borden, had this Web site.  Sort of a pink, sort of soft, frilly girl one.  And then a very sort of dark, gothic one. 

Now we‘re hearing there were all these sexual pictures.  It opens up a whole can of worms on what are your kids doing on the Internet.

GIORDANO:  Well, Rita, that‘s right.  I did a piece this week, local TV, about how 10-to-12 million kids are on all these Web sites and how I believe that parents, it‘s not like looking at a kid‘s diary.  They ought to take a look at this.  They ought to be alarmed by some of this.  I‘d have to say, this 14-year-old is a bit sultry and a little bit alluring in some of them.  And that seems to be the M.O. that is playing out in this case.  And that‘s something that listeners are really taking a look at.

COSBY:  You know, there‘s some comments from Justice Magazine.  I want to show a quite, because there‘s a Pennsylvania defense attorney who basically says Kara Borden may not be totally innocent.  I want to show his quote in this magazine.

It says, there doesn‘t appear to be any solid evidence that she was involved in the murder.  But I have some inside information on the case and right now there are a great deal of people who think that she‘s not necessarily a kidnapping victim.

Are your folks saying that, wait a minute, there still may be a possibility she played some role in this, Dom?

GIORDANO:  Yes, absolutely, Rita.  Listeners are calling me and they‘re using the term, coddled, to a degree, here.   Now, the police, I talked to some news people,  may be coddling her.  The devastation, she‘s certainly experiencing that, until they get a good chance to interview her. 

But most people, putting all these things together, the new detail today that she let this young man, allegedly, into her home, in the wee small hours of the night on several occasions according to some accounts, et cetera, plays to the idea that she may have willingly gone with him.  Nothing premeditated around the parents, but certainly someone who was complicit in creating a whirlwind situation here...

COSBY:  Well, we‘re going to be following this closely.  Dom, great to have you on too.  Always enjoy having you on the show.

GIORDANO:  Thank you, Rita, thank you very much.  Thank you. 

COSBY:  Thank you. 

And still ahead, everybody, for months prosecutors claimed that the man in the surveillance video you‘re going to see killed the girl you see with him.  Tonight, there‘s a verdict that just came down in the Carlie Brucia case. 

And later, a rare look at the interview with the man who killed John Lennon and part of my exclusive interview with Yoko Ono.  Stay tuned. 



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  The verdict, we, the jury, find as follows as to count one of the charges, the defendant is guilty of murder in the first degree as charged. 


COSBY:  Tonight, there appears to be justice for an 11-year-old girl brutally raped and murdered.  Late today, a jury convicted Joseph Smith of kidnapping Carlie Brucia, then doing unspeakable things to her before her death. 

Who can forget these images?  Carlie‘s last moments caught on the surveillance video near a Florida car wash.  Carlie‘s mother spoke after today‘s verdict where Smith was found guilty. 


SUSAN SCHORPEN, CARLIE BRUCIA‘S MOTHER:  The fact I can never hold her again and I can never speak to her again, I mean, I‘m so broken.  You know?  and he‘s got years. 


COSBY:  So what is the next step?  Joining me now is criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub, and also sex crimes prosecutor Stacy Honowitz.  Stacy, you know, before this case went in, a lot of people were saying it was quote, “a slam dunk.”  Do you think it was? 

STACY HONOWITZ, SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR:  Oh, absolutely, Rita.  I don‘t think anyone was shocked by the verdict.  It probably could have taken them six minutes to go back, pick a foreperson and make a decision.  There was mountains of evidence in this case. 

I mean, how many times do you actually have the suspect and the victim on videotape and you actually get to see him leading to the start of the crime?  So, in this case between the surveillance tape, the DNA, the confessions to the mother, the confessions to the brother, it was a slam dunk what the verdict was going to be. 

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  The lawyer giving up in the middle.

COSBY:  Yes, in fact, let me show a comment from the brother.  In fact, we have a quote because that was very powerful.  The brother takes the stand and essentially says two times that he basically said did he this.  He said, “I asked if she was dead.  He said, I don‘t know.  She could be.”  And there were some more pretty stronger statements from the brother actually on the stand where he basically says he told me he did it twice. 

Jayne, do you think the brother did him? 

WEINTRAUB:  No, I think that the lawyer helped do him in, actually, and threw in the towel by waiving his closing argument and his right to closing argument.  I think he‘s almost guaranteed a reversal of this conviction.  I think the system failed in this case, Rita. 

A lawyer has an obligation when he a case or she takes the case to zealously represent their client.  This lawyer did not.  This is not going to be an acceptable strategic move.  This is a death penalty case.  And the Supreme Court has deemed that higher scrutiny is the standard that should be applied in death penalty cases.  This case ...

COSBY:  You know, Jayne, one of the things he didn‘t bring in was the change of venue too because, look, he‘s in Sarasota.  It was held in Sarasota.  So much attention.  Don‘t you think that that‘s going to be appealable, Jayne? 

WEINTRAUB:  I do think that that‘ll be a part of ineffective assistance of council claim.  And man or monster and whether we like it or not, our country demands that every person has the same due process.  And this man didn‘t have any due process. 

COSBY:  Do you think it‘s safe to go ahead?  Does he have a chance?

HONOWITZ:  This lawyer had strategy in his mind and this lawyer after the fact, knowing that this jury was going to come back guilty in this case, because you couldn‘t sit in that courtroom or watch this on TV and not thinking a jury was going to come back guilty. 

The lawyer then has to get up and try to argue on behalf of life for his client.  What credibility does that lawyer have if he gets up during closing arguments—what was he going to say? 

WEINTRAUB:  Stacy, have you had a lawyer ...

HONOWITZ:  This is what he chose to do.  This is what he chose to do. 

COSBY:  But doesn‘t that hit on Jayne‘s point?  Stacy, doesn‘t he—doesn‘t—can‘t he file ineffective council and say, hey, wait a minute, he let this guy high and dry? 

HONOWITZ:  All right, listen.  They can file a 3.850.  That‘s what it is down here, ineffective assistance of council. 

WEINTRAUB:  I know that.

HONOWITZ:  I don‘t know what they‘re going to do on it.  If he chose to waive it strategically, that‘s what they‘re going to do. 

WEINTRAUB:  Stacy, there was no ...

HONOWITZ:  Which doesn‘t mean he wasn‘t zealously representing him.  What do you get up and say, Jayne?  That‘s not him on the tape?  What do you possibly say?

WEINTRAUB:  I‘ll tell you what you get up and say.  Just like in Rodney King, you had to look at the tape.  There‘s reasonable doubt.  He attacked things on cross examination, and this lawyer claimed that he waived closing argument because strategically he has achieved what he had wanted on cross examination.  Stacy, that‘s exactly what closing argument is for.  You‘ve never had a lawyer waive closing argument in a death case.  I‘ve never seen it. 


COSBY:  The next part, you guys, is going to be death penalty.  The next phase is clearly death penalty.  He‘s up for death penalty.  Let me go to you first, Stacy.  You know, the mom is going to get up there.  Very powerful victim impact statement, I‘m sure when she gets up there.  Is there a way that this guy is going to avoid the death penalty when he got the tape, he got the brother.

HONOWITZ:  No.  I mean, what are the redeeming that this—what are the mitigators in this case?  This jury has to come back and give him death.  There are no mitigating factors in this case.  You have confessions.  You have him on tape.  You have DNA.  You have everything.  I would be shocked if they don‘t come back on death.

COSBY:  And let me bring in Jayne.  Jayne, the crime was horrible, so atrocious, you know, so disgusting what happened, unfortunately this poor girl.  Is this guy‘s life be spared or no way? 

WEINTRAUB:  I don‘t think that his life will be spared.  And tragically, Rita, all of these cases are horrible, horrible tragedies.  But there are mitigating factors that probably were never developed but one is the issue he was on cocaine at the time of the offense and the other mitigator is that he had a mental health history of being in and out of psychiatric hospitals. 

And I‘m sure that could have, would have, should have been developed but these lawyers didn‘t and I don‘t know what they‘ll present in mitigation at all. 

COSBY:  All right, that‘s going to have to be the last word.  Both of you, thank you very much.  And just such a sad case for this poor girl. 

And still ahead, everybody, the chilling tape from John Lennon‘s murder.  A rare look inside the mind of a killer, plus what Yoko Ono told me about what she thinks about him.  Stay tuned.



MARK DAVID CHAPMAN, KILLED JOHN LENNON:  I remember opening up the Sergeant Pepper album, and there was Lennon with his glasses and his little goatee, and I remember thinking that I was going to kill him.


COSBY:  That‘s the voice of Mark David Chapman, the crazed gunman who killed John Lennon in his own words tonight from behind bars.  Twenty-five years ago this December, the former Beatle was gunned down outside his Manhattan home.  And tomorrow, “Dateline NBC” is revisiting the events leading up to that tragic and shocking day. 

We are joined now by phone with Ken Mansfield.  He‘s a former business associate and also friend of the Beatle.  He‘s also the author of the book called “The Beatles, The Bible and Bodega Bay.” 

Ken, before I start with you, I want to play a little more of Mark David Chapman, and get your reaction.  Let‘s take a listen.


CHAPMAN:  I heard a voice in my head saying, do it, do it, do it.  And as he looked at me, I looked at him, I pulled out the gun, aimed at his back, and pulled the trigger five times. 


COSBY:  You know, Ken, when you hear that, it‘s chilling.  What was your reaction when you found out it was a crazed fan who took John Lennon, just such a talented singer, his life? 

KEN MANSFIELD, AUTHOR:  Well, that was just such a shock, to use the word fan and killer in the same sentence with John Lennon.  I just think it‘s something that none of us expected. 

COSBY:  It‘s so stunning.  Where did you find out?  And just how stunned were you when you heard the news 25 years ago, almost? 

MANSFIELD:  Well, it was amazing.  I had just set up new offices in Hollywood, and I pulled out some boxes to put my awards and stuff on the wall, and a box fell out, and John Lennon‘s picture fell out on the floor.  And I was sitting on the floor cross-legged, and his picture was looking up.  And at that moment, I got a phone call from Nick Guilder (ph), “Hot Child in the City” artist I was producing at the time.  And he told me John had just been killed. 

And I hung up the phone, and I looked down, and here is just John looking up at me from the floor.  And the thing that surprised me was my reaction at that point, because I worked with John, I knew John, I considered him a friend, and was involved with him on some other projects, and my reaction, I moved back into the fabric of everybody.  I didn‘t think it was my personal loss.  It was such a great loss, that I just kind of went back into everybody, you know, considering everybody‘s loss, and I think I wept at that moment, but I felt like I was weeping with everybody, it wasn‘t my, you know. 

COSBY:  Yep.  And you were, the whole world. 

I want to show—I actually talked to Yoko Ono about John‘s passing, let‘s play that if we could. 


COSBY:  What do you remember most about the day, December 8? 

YOKO ONO, JOHN LENNON‘S WIDOW:  Well, you know, it just happened.  And it was so sudden.  It was very difficult for me to adjust to it, you know.  I mean, still taking for me to adjust.   It does take a long time. 


COSBY:  You know, Ken, have you reconciled what happened to your dear friend? 

MANSFIELD:  Oh, absolutely.  You know, we all have to move on.  You know, everybody has.  And I just think that there‘s going to be—he is just such a legendary character, that I think we were glad to have him.  And I think we are very happy to have what he has left behind. 

COSBY:  We just have a few seconds left.  When was the last time you saw John, real quick? 

MANSFIELD:  I saw him at Ringo‘s house.  I had gone over to play—I was producing Waylon Jennings at the time, and Ringo had asked me for an advanced listen to the album tapes.  And I walk in—and this is during the lost years, when John was, you know, kind of gone for a while—and I walk in, and there‘s John just sitting on the couch. 

And he was really kind of in a strange mod, so we played the tapes.  And I needed his signature on something.  I didn‘t think I was going to be able to track him down.  I tell you what, I said, John, you are in a bad mood, if you sign, I‘ll leave.  And I think that‘s how I got his signature, because he just wanted to be with Ringo alone at the time and I... 

COSBY:  That‘s great. 

MANSFIELD:  And Ken, we got to leave unfortunately ourselves too, but thank you for sharing your memories.  We‘d love to have you back on again.  Thanks so much.

And everybody, be sure to watch, “The Man Who Shot John Lennon.”  It airs tomorrow night on a special two-hour “Dateline” at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time on your NBC station so be sure to stay tuned.  We‘re going to be right back.