Guest: Mike Allen, Eric Knudsen, Daniel Shapiro, Max Kellerman, Tom Crouse
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”: Let‘s go to Tucker Carlson now and get the very latest and THE SITUATION about the plane crash in Chicago. Tucker, what‘s the situation at Midway Airport now?
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Thanks, Joe. We‘ll tell you.
Thanks to you at home also for tuning in. We always appreciate it.
We start off, as Joe said, with breaking news. Southwest Airlines flight carrying 98 people skidded off an icy runway tonight at Chicago‘s Midway International Airport. It then hit two cars.
NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski is in Chicago with the latest on the crash tonight, Michelle.
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Tucker. Right now, we know at least 12 people have been hurt.
Earlier the fire department was reporting two of those injuries at least were serious, but we don‘t know exactly the extent of injuries. We know that, yes, there were two cars, four hurt in one, three in another. That only adds up to seven.
The other five people who are now being reported hurt by the aviation department, we‘re not sure where they were. Were they people on the ground? Were they in some other vehicle? Not sure, but we do know, according to the department, that nobody on board that plane was hurt.
Ninety-eight people on board, as you said, Southwest flight coming in from Baltimore-Washington Airport trying to land at Midway on the south side of Chicago. There are also five crew members aboard that plane. They were also safe.
So this plane tries to land. We know it goes into a holding pattern. There was some time it had circled around the airport, tried to land at this runway. We do know it was the longest runway at Midway. And when it goes in for the landing, it skids off, crashes through a barrier fence, and ends up in traffic on the roadway at an intersection right next to the airport. That‘s where those two cars were hit.
And when you look at those pictures, you can see one of those cars pinned underneath the 737. That‘s where the fire department believed the two serious injuries were.
But again, those people are being treated in hospitals right now. Nobody has been able to talk to them or their families. There was another car that was slightly damaged, and the airplane seemed to be pretty badly damaged on the front end. It eventually ended up against a pole.
There were reports on the ground that there was an engine also out of the plane that seemed to be badly damaged.
But when that plane skidded off, as it came to a stop, one of those chutes where people can slide off the plane deployed. Those people were able to slide off to safety. The fire department and other officials helped get them out of that plane, back to the terminal where everybody was OK. Even though there were such tense moments aboard that plane.
We‘re also getting some word right now from the fire department that the conditions were terrible. We know that snow was falling about an inch an hour. About seven inches of snow total at that point at Midway Airport.
But, they said that the plowing action was going on on the runways.
That was happening fine. The airport was open. Planes were landing. Everything was OK. And the fire department also said that, among those planes that were landing, the braking action on the runways seemed to be good.
So what exactly happened with this plane that caused it to skid, that‘s what investigators with the NTSB and other agencies are looking at right now—Tucker.
CARLSON: All right, NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski in Chicago. Thank you.
Of course, we‘ll keep you updated on the story as we find out more.
Those people on the plane, very fortunate.
Now on to rumblings from Washington about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. A report in today‘s “New York Daily News” suggests Mr. Rumsfeld could soon be stepping down from his post clearing the way for, of all people, Senate Democrat Joe Lieberman of Connecticut.
The newspaper reports that Rumsfeld‘s chief deputy is still the
leading candidate to replace his boss, but it also points out that
Lieberman‘s views on Iraq have been quoted approvingly in recent speeches
by both the president and the vice president.
Meanwhile, the Defense Department confirmed today that Rumsfeld held an early morning meeting this morning at the Pentagon with Joe Lieberman.
So is Rumsfeld about to retire? Here‘s what he said about the matter just this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Those reports have been flying around since about four months after I assumed my post, in 2001.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So does that mean it‘s not true?
RUMSFELD: I have no plans to retire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Here‘s to discuss what this all means, “TIME” magazine White House correspondent Mike Allen joins us live tonight from Washington.
MIKE ALLEN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, “TIME” MAGAZINE: HI, Tucker.
CARLSON: So what does this mean? Is Rumsfeld on his way out? We have been hearing this for years. Is it true?
ALLEN: Well, you saw the secretary didn‘t say no. I have no plans to retire is quite a weasel word.
Later, this evening, Secretary Rumsfeld went on to say, there‘s a story I‘ve had every six months. Eventually it will be right. He said there will be one in another six months. So that makes you think he‘s maybe staying for awhile. He‘s left himself some options.
Tucker, we‘ve heard for some time that Secretary Rumsfeld would like to move on when there‘s some victory, either in Iraq or with his effort to transform the military. But lo and behold, there‘s not been a lot of great news for the Pentagon in the past years, so he hasn‘t had a lot of exit opportunities of his own.
You saw Secretary Rumsfeld talking today, putting numbers on the troop productions that they‘ve been talking about in more general terms, 160,000 at the peak, 155,000 now. Secretary Rumsfeld said after the elections, in mid December, next year, down to like 138,000.
CARLSON: That‘s still high. I‘m sort of surprised that many they‘re predicting. Tell me about Joe Lieberman. I notice the president in his speech the other day quoted Lieberman. I know Cheney has as well. Do you give any credence at all to this Tom DeFrank piece in the “New York Daily News” saying he could replace Rumsfeld? Is that real?
ALLEN: Tom DeFrank is a great dad and a great reporter.
ALLEN: I question whether, if Senator Lieberman were really the man, would he be having the breakfast meeting, that—unless they‘re doing a double blind fool of us there?
It certainly would not be in the Bush playbook to do this. Not only is Senator Lieberman, obviously not a Bushie. They—he does not have the passion for anonymity that you know the president prefers in most of his cabinet members.
But there‘s no question that right now Senator Lieberman is the White House‘s favorite Democrat. Not only did the president and vice president quote him approvingly, Scott McClellan keeps pulling out Lieberman quotes in his briefings.
CARLSON: There‘s the kiss of death.
ALLEN: And they use it—they use it to show how broad the Democratic opinion about Iraq is. That because Democrats don‘t have really one opinion, they‘re not able to take advantage of the White House sort of being frankly on the map right now.
In fact, I‘ll give you a little breaking news here. There‘s a lot of people in the party that wanted Congressman Murtha to do the Democrats‘ response to the State of the Union. It‘s been decided he cannot do that because they don‘t have a unified position.
So, Tucker, I would look for a new Democratic face, perhaps the governor-elect in Virginia, Tim Kaine.
CARLSON: Yes. That makes sense. Shame for the Democrats, though. And in fact, now they‘re facing what looks to be a microrise in the polls for the president, five points, in the new CBS/”New York Times” poll. The “Times” today laid that rise to the economy, which is actually doing great by historical measures. Do you think—what does the White House read this as?
ALLEN: Well, Tucker, I love your word “microrise,” because it would barely show on the Richter scale but actually it was very important. I was in the White House yesterday and I discovered that they really thought the president might be in free fall, that they are very relieved that they seem to have hit bottom. And they are convinced, because of this, and some other measures, that that has occurred.
And because, Tucker, the reason this was so dangerous is, of course, at this point, when he is at 40, the high 30‘s, every one he‘s losing then is a Republican. You‘re into the meat, the bone then.
CARLSON: That‘s right.
ALLEN: So that‘s why you‘ve seen these very aggressive attacks on Democrats. That‘s to preserve themselves for the base.
Now, in these series of speeches that you‘ve been covering on your air, there, where you see some concessions of error by the president, there you have efforts to reach out, with facts, to people who maybe were not with them on the Iraq policy, and trying to get centrists to take another look.
CARLSON: Yes, and I think—I don‘t even agree with Bush on most of this stuff, but I think it‘s been pretty effective.
Mike Allen in Washington for us, live. Thank you, Mike.
ALLEN: Merry Christmas, Tucker.
CARLSON: Merry Christmas. Thank you. One of our favorite expressions on THE SITUATION.
Here to make sense of what all of this means, one of our all-time favorites, Air America star, Rachel Maddow—Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW, AIR AMERICA RADIO HOST: Happy Kwanzaa.
CARLSON: Happy Kwanzaa to you, too.
MADDOW: Merry Christmas, happy holiday.
CARLSON: Equal opportunity.
MADDOW: Happy Chrismakkah.
CARLSON: Happy—I‘m not sure what that is, but same to you.
CARLSON: This Lieberman story, I agree with Mike Allen, very unlikely that he‘ll become the secretary of defense.
MADDOW: You can see why they‘d want to do it, though.
CARLSON: Actually, I think it would be a very clever move. Because their, foreign policy is Iraq, period. That‘s what it consists of, and he is one of the most articulate defenders of the Iraq policy.
But I think the more interesting idea is the war cabinet idea that Lieberman floated the other day. Why not have a bipartisan group of people who advise the president on how to win, because the debate now, to the White House benefit, I think, is about how do we win what is turning into this quagmire in Iraq? How do we get out with honor and victory? Why not have a war cabinet?
MADDOW: It‘s interesting. That‘s the one thing that Lieberman has done recently that I actually think is kind of a good idea, because...
CARLSON: John Kerry dismissed it today in a speech before the Council on Foreign Relations.
MADDOW: The thing that I think is useful about it—I mean, the Bush administration will never go for it in a million years because, as Mike was just saying, the way the Bush administration wins points, the way they improve their approval rating, the way they hold onto their base is by attacking Democrats and attacking Democrats.
MADDOW: That‘s why I think that Lieberman won‘t ever actually be picked as defense secretary because they‘ll anger so many Republicans, who will feel like that interferes with their ability to demonize Democrats. And that‘s got to be the strategy for them in ‘06.
CARLSON: But don‘t you think Democrats allow themselves to be demonized and fail to take advantage of the president‘s and his party‘s weaknesses by appearing to not care whether we achieve victory in Iraq?
It‘s important emotionally for most Americans that we get out, sooner rather than later, but get out in any case, at any point where we can say we won. You know, we achieved the mission. That‘s so important. And Democrats don‘t seem like they care.
MADDOW: In short-term, shallow political terms, I think that‘s right, but I think that Democrats are being more honest about the war. And I do think that matters to the American people more than kind of this veneer of “we‘re going to win, we‘re going to win,” which feels great at first blush. And then you realize, wait a minute, they don‘t really know what they‘re talking about.
I think when the Bush administration comes out and says—and they‘re going to do this whole Democrats are the party of surrender, Democrats are the party of defeat thing. They‘re already starting with that. It‘s really hard—going to be really hard for them to say—to answer the rejoinder, which is, well, the plan for victory doesn‘t really have much of an explanation other than you‘re just going to call it victory. You can‘t win an occupation.
CARLSON: I don‘t know. Actually I think just calling it victory is still better than an ignominious defeat.
MADDOW: No, but the Democrats have said, listen, we have won. We toppled—we toppled the government of Saddam. It took 10 minutes. Now we‘re in an indefinite occupation, which you can‘t win. You can‘t do that to American troops.
CARLSON: When it turns into this just sinkhole of chaos and violence from which terror is launched against the United States. I‘m not—you know, I‘m not even arguing it was right to invade Iraq. But now that we have, that is—there‘s no way you‘re going to be able to call it victory. We leave it in that condition.
MADDOW: You stay for a decade, you stay for 20 years.
CARLSON: I don‘t know. I mean, that is the sad—that is the sad question, but I still think you can‘t call it victory.
OK. To San Francisco, your hometown, the city where I was born, where my family is from, and you too.
CARLSON: Controversy there over the police department. A couple of cops made a Christmas tape, some sort of private party video.
MADDOW: Office party.
CARLSON: Office party. That has the police doing a bunch of unpolitically correct things. It has one cop dressing in drag. It has him, I think, running over a homeless person.
CARLSON: Pulling up to a strip bar. Predictably, the police chief and the mayor are outraged, and the cops are suspended, and this is the worst thing that‘s ever happened to the city of San Francisco, and they‘re racist and sexist. And you name it, they‘re it.
Well, who cares? I mean, the question is, are they solving crimes? Are they mistreating civilians? Actually, San Francisco has a higher murder rate than New York. Why aren‘t they outraged about that?
MADDOW: Nobody got suspended. He became—got moved to the file room, the guy who actually did this, which is kind of like getting suspended for being a police officer.
CARLSON: Actually, I believe, according to the A.P., he was suspended.
MADDOW: I thought he was moved to the file room is the follow up that I saw. Regardless, they have been punished, and there has been a lot of outrage about it.
I mean, if you kind of take away the issue that they‘re cops, in any workplace, if someone is making something for a Christmas party, they posted it online, if it‘s by employees, it‘s going to be shown in the workplace, and it‘s really offensive, you‘re going to get in trouble for it. That‘s what happens in the workplace.
CARLSON: Yes, but they post—I mean, it‘s like where‘s—this is sort of—to my deeper point, I know a lot of funny liberals. You‘re one of them. And I mean that as a high compliment.
However, the face of liberalism is a scowl. It‘s a “put out that cigarette. That‘s not funny. You‘re hurting my feelings. That‘s hate speech.” I mean, that is kind of the public face of the left.
MADDOW: But that‘s how you think of liberals. When I think of the face of conservativism, the face of conservatism to me is Dick Cheney. I mean, not only coming after me at home and deciding what I can do in my bedroom and in my personal life, but also waging unjust wars.
CARLSON: It‘s “Hey, you kids, get off my lawn.”
MADDOW: We both see each other like that.
CARLSON: When was the last time you saw someone on the right say, ‘That‘s so offensive. That joke, is, you know out of bounds and you ought to be fired for telling a joke.” That is exclusively the providence of the left, does that.
CARLSON: It‘s a bad P.R. thing for them.
MADDOW: The last time I was on with you, when you had the Liberty Council guy on, he was talking about how it is an outrage, and you agreed with him, that this school is not allowing children to sing religious songs. They can sing “Frosty the Snowman” but not “Silent Night.” We want “Silent Night” in the school.
CARLSON: You‘re missing it.
It was the school in the first place that said, that song is so scary, “Silent Night” is such a threat to our children—hide the children. “Silent Night” is on, right? They‘re the ones who are humorless at the very beginning. They started this endless domino effect of humorlessness.
MADDOW: You can call it that. That‘s why you call it the war on Christmas, right, to make it seem like it‘s a liberal problem? But the way that I see it, this is a perfect microcosm of how the left and right don‘t see each other.
Because for me, that is the right getting all outraged because they have no lives whatsoever. And they‘re thinking, how can we figure out a way to make the government more religious?
CARLSON: Wait a second. Wait a second.
MADDOW: That‘s the way we see that.
CARLSON: People have been singing that song for decades.
MADDOW: Just don‘t sing it in a public school.
CARLSON: All of a sudden, a bunch of dyspeptic constipated liberals with unhappy personal lives decide that it‘s, like, a threat to the republic and kids aren‘t allowed to sing it. They‘re the ones who started it. I‘m merely saying wouldn‘t the San Francisco Police Department and its city government do themselves a favor by saying, “You know what? It was off-color video, but it was kind of amusing.”
MADDOW: Tucker, if you and I made a lap dancing video for the MSNBC Kwanzaa party, and G.E. found out about it because somebody posted it online, we‘d get in big trouble. And you couldn‘t blame it on liberals.
CARLSON: I would get—I would get on this show and I would say that‘s the funniest Kwanzaa lap dancing video anybody has ever seen. And if you don‘t believe it, here‘s the URL. I don‘t know. I‘m just for humor. I am.
MADDOW: Do you think we should keep talking about this as if it‘s a hypothetical?
CARLSON: Good point. Rachel Maddow, thank you.
MADDOW: Thank you, Tucker.
CARLSON: You were great in the video, by the way.
Boy, you lap dance with the best of them.
Still to come, Ann Coulter, the conservative provocateur, is prevented from speaking on campus by students who claim they‘re dedicated to free speech. That‘s the irony alert you hear in the background. You‘ll hear from one of the leaders of the protest.
Plus, why would a police officer in Ohio Taser a 68-year-old grandmother five times? The unbelievable answer when THE SITUATION comes back.
We‘ll also have the very latest on that plane in Chicago, the Southwest Airlines flight from Baltimore, that skidded off the runway into a crowded intersection, injuring at least seven. We‘ll give you more on that.
We‘ll be right back.
CARLSON: Next, in the name of free speech, Ann Coulter is prevented from speaking at a college campus.
Plus, fool-proof ways to ask your boss for a raise. News you can use when THE SITUATION continues.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Conservative columnist and best selling author Ann Coulter makes a pretty good living bashing liberals. Yesterday, though, she was the one getting bashed, by students at the University of Connecticut. Hecklers in the crowd of 2,600 interrupted her speech after about 15 minutes. She decided to finish with a half hour Q and A session, saying, quote, “I love to engage in repartee with people who are stupider than I am.”
Eric Knudsen is a sophomore at UCONN, and founder of Students Against Hate, one of the groups protesting Ann Coulter‘s appearance last night. He joins us tonight live from Hartford, Connecticut.
Eric, thanks a lot for coming on.
ERIC KNUDSEN, FOUNDER, STUDENTS AGAINST HATE: Hi. Thank you for having me.
CARLSON: Now, if you‘re for tolerance and free speech, why not tolerate Ann Coulter and let her speak?
KNUDSEN: Well, when I first heard word Ann Coulter was coming to campus, you know, we were talking with other students. And African-American Muslim students say to me, “Eric, I don‘t feel safe. I don‘t feel comfortable.”
And university is a place you foster different ideas. And I totally agree with that. But when students tell me they feel unsafe when someone‘s coming, that‘s when we have to say, what‘s going on here?
CARLSON: Well, wait a second—I mean, look, that‘s not an argument.
I mean, people don‘t like her ideas. Nobody is suggesting Ann Coulter is
going to bring a gun and hurt anyone on campus. You know that as well as
I. She has ideas that some people find repugnant, but I thought the whole idea of college was to share ideas, to be exposed to ideas that threaten you, even. Why not let her expose people on your campus to her ideas?
KNUDSEN: Well, that‘s an excellent question. We believe that what Ann Coulter says is hate speech. We cite different examples about—especially towards the Muslim community.
And we feel—you know, the College Republicans could have chosen someone better, such as Colin Powell, John McCain. There‘s so many great conservatives out there.
CARLSON: Yes. People who are more liberal than her. I mean, hate speech, what does that mean? That‘s just name calling. You think that she‘s a hater? I‘m sure she thinks you‘re a hater.
Why not just throw out her ideas and let people decide for themselves? It‘s a college full of adults. People call themselves adult. Why are you afraid to let her ideas percolate to the student?
KNUDSEN: Excellent. Well, you know what? I liken her to Howard Stern. She‘s a performer. She‘s, you know, an actor. She makes money doing it. I mean, she made $30,000, you know, shooting her words off. She doesn‘t engage in good political speech, you know, respectful discourse.
CARLSON: So only people who engage in what you think is good political speech ought to be allowed to speak, who are you to make the decisions?
KNUDSEN: That‘s not what I was saying, if you let me finish. She is
she‘s been—different occasions, she‘s said things against Muslims.
She specifically attacked Muslims‘ identities. And it‘s different to have opinions, but to attack someone‘s identity, and especially make them feel uncomfortable on their own campus, that‘s not right. That shouldn‘t be allowed.
CARLSON: It may not be right, but I mean, you can‘t with a straight face say that you‘re for free speech. You‘re for speech that makes you feel comfortable. You‘re for limiting speech and preventing people from speaking, if they make you feel uncomfortable. You‘re not for free speech.
KNUDSEN: Well, I didn‘t stand outside. I didn‘t go to her event. I wasn‘t disrespectful.
CARLSON: Good for you.
KNUDSEN: I didn‘t protest outside. I let her speak. What I did is I just had a forum beforehand of students, Muslim, African-American, and they got to talk and share how they feel. UCONN, discrimination they faced. Forum to share their side of the story.
KNUDSEN: What it feels like to be them.
CARLSON: I think that‘s great. That‘s exactly what you ought to be doing. What do you think of the students who literally shouted her down by screaming, “You suck”?
KNUDSEN: It‘s horrible.
CARLSON: What a bunch of morons. I mean, who do something like that?
KNUDSEN: Exactly. She feeds off that. I‘m glad we agree on that. I just shake my head. You know, I wish I could have reached out to every student and said, you know, “Don‘t do that.” We did hand out flyers at our program, and it said if you choose to go to Ann Coulter, you know, please act respectful. Don‘t boo or yell. We did explicitly say that to the students.
CARLSON: Good. Because it didn‘t help your cause any.
CARLSON: I have to say, I went to college. I‘ve been to a lot of events like this. Cindy Sheehan spoke at your college, I think, Monday.
KNUDSEN: She did.
CARLSON: She was not shouted down by the right. It‘s always the left that doesn‘t let people talking. It‘s not a good advertisement for your politics, and I‘m glad you didn‘t engage in it.
Thanks a lot for coming on.
KNUDSEN: Thank you very much.
CARLSON: Thanks, Eric Knudsen.
We can sadly report that a 6-year-old child has died in the crash of that Southwest Airlines flight from Baltimore. That was at Chicago‘s Midway International field tonight. It skidded off the runway in about seven inches of snow, into an intersection. Apparently, that child was in one of the cars, struck by the airplane.
We‘ll have much more developing from that story when we come back.
CARLSON: You‘re looking at live pictures from Chicago, Midway International Airport, where a Southwest Airlines flight skidded off the runway in snow tonight, into an intersection, striking at least two cars.
MSNBC has just learned that one of the passengers in those cars, a 6-year-old child, has died of injuries sustained in that accident.
All the passengers and crew were able to get of the flight, down the slide. None was injured, so far as we know. There were other people injured on the ground. That news is filtering in now. We‘re going to bring you details a little bit later in the show from live on the scene.
Meanwhile, whether you‘re negotiating a business contract or disciplining a defiant teenager, emotions can get you in trouble. But they can also help you get what you want. A new book, “Beyond Reason: Using Emotions as You Negotiate,” author shows us how to navigate these tricky situations. Dr. Shapiro joins us live tonight from Boston.
Daniel Shapiro, thanks a lot for coming on.
DANIEL SHAPIRO, AUTHOR, “BEYOND REASON”: It‘s a pleasure to talk with you, Tucker.
CARLSON: My first—the question I‘ve always wanted to know the answer to, is it possible to negotiate without giving something up?
SHAPIRO: Without giving something up, absolutely. Absolutely. And a big part of that is how to deal with emotions as you‘re negotiating. In our new book, “Beyond Reason,” I think the reason people are excited by this book, is that we show you how you can get what you want, in a sense without giving anything up, how to use emotions to get what you want.
CARLSON: What about emotions in the other party? If you‘re negotiating with someone who‘s enraged or drunk or who‘s a child, as a person who doesn‘t have control over his emotions, it‘s kind of hard to get anywhere, isn‘t it?
SHAPIRO: Well, I think that‘s right. I mean, in those kinds of situations, I might want to take a break myself, to help the other person save face, let them calm down, and then come back into the—and talk with them.
And what I‘d want to focus on would be the core concepts of our book. We call these things core concerns. They‘re matters that are important to all of us. And if I understand how to deal with these core concerns, a handful of them, I‘m much more powerful in the negotiation. I can get what I want.
CARLSON: OK. So if I‘m negotiating for a raise from my boss, is it ever appropriate for me to cry? To what extent can I use emotion? Can I go that far?
SHAPIRO: Well, I was just talking with someone recently about a performance evaluation. And the salary was a piece of it. In that kind of situation, I said, start by appreciating your boss. Start on a positive tone. Find something to appreciate. And if you can set a positive tone, the very beginning, research suggests that your outcome is much better. You‘re much more successful.
CARLSON: Tell me this. Give me a specific negotiation tactic that I can use. You‘ve got a child, let‘s say an 8-year-old, and it‘s time for bed. The child has to wake up early and go to school. The child doesn‘t want to go to bed. You try to make the case that tomorrow will actually arrive, and that if you don‘t go to bed now, you‘re going to suffer when it does. The child doesn‘t get it, because the time horizon doesn‘t exist. How do you negotiate that?
SHAPIRO: That‘s an autonomy issue. That‘s one of the big points of our book. No one likes to be told what to do. You don‘t like to be told what to do.
CARLSON: No, I don‘t.
SHAPIRO: I don‘t like to be told what to do. And kids don‘t like to be told what to do.
Instead, you know, I recommend, sit down with your child over the weekend, and get their help on how to deal with the situation. You know what? Tell the child, you know, we need you to have nine hours of sleep every day. We want you to be awake in time for school, but what are some options? How can we deal with this situation?
Even if they don‘t give you any good ideas, if no good ideas come up, they feel a part of the process. You‘re using their emotions. You‘re enlisting their emotions, and it‘s easier to work together.
CARLSON: Is it ever—is it possible to negotiate in groups? You always see in diplomatic settings, you know, nine North Koreans, three Chinese, and they‘re all standing, four people from the U.N., right, all negotiating together. Do you get anywhere? Does negotiation always have to take place one on one?
SHAPIRO: I think it‘s a lot harder when you‘re negotiating in groups. I mean, the easiest way to negotiate would be, Tucker, if you and I are sitting in a room and talking privately. We can build rapport with one another. We can use the concepts of our book, “Beyond Reason,” to build that emotional connection that makes it so much easier to deal with even really challenging emotional issues.
CARLSON: Yes. I always knew the U.N. was a crock, and you have confirmed it. Thank you, Dr. Shapiro.
SHAPIRO: No, thank you.
CARLSON: The book, “Beyond Reason: Using Emotions as you Negotiate.”
Thanks a lot.
SHAPIRO: Thank you, it‘s a pleasure.
CARLSON: All right. We have, as we said at the beginning of this segment, news from Chicago, Midway Airport, where as you may know, a plane, a Southwest Airlines flight from Baltimore, skidded off the runway earlier tonight into an intersection.
We‘re sad to report that a 6-year-old has been killed in that accident. That 6-year-old apparently a passenger in one of the cars on the ground, struck by the 737 as it skidded through a fence into a busy intersection. We‘ll have more on that disaster when we come back.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
As the rap artist and noted moral philosopher 50 Cent once said, wise men listen and laugh while fools talk. Joining us now from Las Vegas, the “Outsider,” a man who listens and laughs, from ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing, Max Kellerman—Max?
MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO HOST: And I just did both, but what I‘m waiting for is the Rakim, the Eric B and Rakim quote from you, Tucker.
CARLSON: Those are coming up.
KELLERMAN: OK, excellent.
CARLSON: Yes, wait until tomorrow. We‘ll have it.
KELLERMAN: “Lyrics of Fury.” Quote “Lyrics of Fury” next time.
CARLSON: I‘ve never even heard of it, but I‘ll quote it.
First up, the rumor mill is about to grind to halt in one Massachusetts middle school. According to the Bellingham School‘s handbook, students caught, quote, “creating or repeating rumors will incur strong consequences.”
Principal Elaine D‘Alfonso says those strong consequences could range from a reprimand to suspension from school. And she says girls are the culprit 90 percent of the time.
Well, of course, she‘s right about that. She‘s wrong about penalizing students for gossiping, passing on rumors, for two reasons, Max. First, most rumors are true, as we all know.
To be completely honest, it‘s true.
KELLERMAN: Well, there‘s some truth to them. There‘s a...
CARLSON: Yes, that‘s right. They contain truth, the overwhelming majority of rumors. And truth is a defense, in school as in life.
And second, you can‘t penalize people for thinking things. That‘s a thought crime. That is, by definition, Orwellian and unenforceable, as far as I‘m concerned.
KELLERMAN: Well, look, this principal really belongs in communist China, not in the United States of America. It‘s totalitarian, disgusting, I hate it. Here‘s my defense of it, OK?
KELLERMAN: In order to slander someone, if you sue someone for slander, you have to prove two things. One, that there was malice there.
KELLERMAN: There was malicious intent. Two, that it‘s not true. Truth is the defense. So if you‘re going to argue that it‘s—the truth becomes a defense. You can‘t—if you‘re lying about somebody, then you‘re in trouble. But if you‘re not lying about somebody, they can‘t touch you.
CARLSON: In other words, this rule is OK, as long as the school makes certain that the rumor is untrue and is being passed on from one student to another with intent to hurt somebody else?
KELLERMAN: Well, yes. I mean, you know, first of all, do you want kids to be malicious towards one another? No.
KELLERMAN: Do you want them lying? No. So long as those two things aren‘t going on, no one‘s getting punished.
CARLSON: Yes, but it‘s also un-provable. And, see, these are the kinds of gray areas that are best-handled, in fact, should only be handled by parents, because only parents have the discernment and the knowledge of the child required to make those judgments.
A teacher doesn‘t know a kid well enough to decide whether the kid is lying, most of the time, whether he‘s acting out of malice. How would the teacher know?
I think schools ought to spend their time teaching kids to read and do math problems, learn some history, maybe a foreign language, a little science, possibly gym. If you can teach them tuba in the process, great, and then back off from there.
KELLERMAN: I can‘t believe this principal is actually talking about stopping rumors.
CARLSON: I know.
KELLERMAN: It‘s an outrage, but that‘s my best defense.
CARLSON: Well, I thought it was a pretty good defense, actually, not bad.
All right. See if you can defend this. We‘ve had stories from all over the country lately about people disrespecting Christmas. But it doesn‘t get a lot worse than this. Buckle your seat belt.
A large, blindfolded Santa doll hanging from a noose in a Miami managers front yard. The Santa also has his hands and legs bound by wire. The homeowner refused comment, except to say that it‘s his right to display the Santa, whether his neighbors like it or not. They don‘t like it, but police say there‘s nothing they can do.
It‘s a pretty complicated case, Max, for this one reason: The neighbors shouldn‘t have gone to the police. It‘s not a police matter. If you don‘t like what‘s hanging in the guy‘s yard, ask him to take it down. If he doesn‘t, take it down yourself in the middle of the night while he‘s sleeping. I mean, that‘s kind of the bottom line.
For me, it‘s really a moral question: Do you have a moral right to hang this in your front yard? And the answer is no, because other people have to see it. If you say he‘s got a right to hang this in his front yard, answer this question: Does he have a right to sit naked in his front yard or have sex with his wife in his front yard? No. Why? Because it may be his property, but the act, visually, is offensive to passers by, period.
KELLERMAN: Well, in the first place, we‘ve discussed this in past shows. There‘s an inverse relationship between how easy it is to shut off a sense and someone else‘s right to kind of infringe on that sense.
KELLERMAN: If someone‘s plays loud music, you can‘t just block out your ears. Your eyes, it‘s the loosest with visual things, with aesthetic things, because you can choose to look away very easily. You can close your eyes when looking in that direction.
However, let‘s address the morality of it all. Lewd or indecent behavior that people can see is one thing. But it‘s his property, his air rights above his home. And it‘s a First Amendment issue. You know, he might be making, who knows—he might just be saying, “It‘s my First Amendment right to be a jerk.” That might be the point he‘s making.
KELLERMAN: Or he might be saying, “Christmas is too commercial. And I hate the commercialism of Christmas. And every time I look at someone else‘s yard and see a Santa or a Christmas tree, it‘s a reminder of that. And so now I want to remind everyone of how I view it.” It‘s really a First Amendment issue.
CARLSON: You know, and I actually think that‘s valid most of the time, and I almost always defend people‘s rights to be obnoxious, to be jerks. I think you actually have such a right.
But there is a line, and I think this guy‘s crossed it. This is so offensive, this is so scary, for instance, to children, that it is a lot like pornography. And nobody argues you have a right to put something that‘s sexually explicit in public view. You don‘t have that right.
KELLERMAN: Well, in this context, yes, but it does feel that way, but it‘s, again, because of the context. If it was Halloween and someone put something very graphically violent and spooky, scary in their front yard, you‘d say, “Oh, isn‘t that nice? It‘s Halloween.”
So, really, if you go by the accepted cultural norm, then your First Amendment right is protected. If you don‘t, then it shouldn‘t be? That‘s a slippery slope.
CARLSON: Yes. Well, it is a slippery slope on both sides. That‘s exactly right. I mean, the real answer is the neighborhood men ought to get together and just cut the tree down in the middle of the night, but, obviously...
KELLERMAN: Ah, the old mob mentality.
CARLSON: Yes, that‘s right! Vigilante justice has a role in this society. And, Max, sorry, it‘s the truth. And everybody watching knows what I‘m talking about.
CARLSON: Max Kellerman, good luck tonight.
KELLERMAN: Thank you.
CARLSON: There‘s still plenty more ahead on THE SITUATION.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON (voice-over): Queer contest for the straight guy. Are you man enough to wear the crown of Mr. Heterosexual?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I‘m starting to smell like butch.
CARLSON: Then meet the cat with the Midas touch. Wait until you see why this lion‘s worth his weight in gold.
Plus, you make the call. One viewer‘s bizarre admission of animal magnetism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I‘m really into pandas.
CARLSON: And is your fashion-conscious daughter dressing like a hooker? A revealing look at why you might want to blame it on Rio.
It‘s all ahead on THE SITUATION.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We‘ll be just a minute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: You are looking at live pictures from Chicago Midway Airport, the smaller of the city‘s two airports, where tonight a Southwest Airlines flight from Baltimore landed on the airport‘s longest runway but couldn‘t stop.
A pilot apparently applied the brakes, but the plane went screaming right through a fence at the end of the runway into an intersection where it struck at least two cars. We‘re sad to report that a boy, a 6-year-old boy, in one of the cars was killed.
A number of other people were injured. We‘re not exactly sure how many. The latest report was seven; there may be more. No one on the plane was hurt. Passengers and crew escaped on the slides, and they‘re OK.
But, as we said, a number of people have been injured. They‘re in local hospitals, and at least one 6-year-old boy has been killed.
Have you ever wondered to yourself: Who is the most heterosexual man in the world? Well, my next guest has wondered that, and he intends to find out. Pastor Tom Crouse is organizing the first-ever Mr. Heterosexual Competition, an event he calls a celebration of God‘s design for mankind. Contestants will compete in events like tearing “Oprah” magazines in half with their bare hands.
Pastor Crouse joins me tonight live from Boston. Mr. Crouse, thanks a lot for coming on.
PASTOR TOM CROUSE, ORGANIZER, “MR. HETEROSEXUAL” COMPETITION: Hey, Tucker, great to be on. Thanks for having me.
CARLSON: Any man who even touches an “Oprah” magazine is gay, you‘re aware of that, right? This is a self-canceling event.
CROUSE: I would not say that, Tucker. I wouldn‘t go that far. But let me tell you how this came about.
I host a one-hour live call-in talk show. And I was talking about, you know, they recently had a Mr. Gay International of San Diego. And, you know, I said, you know, there‘s gay international, gay cruise lines, pretty soon there‘s going to be gay peanut butter, whatever.
I said someone should stand up for heterosexuality. Someone should have a Mr. Heterosexual Contest. So I said, “You know what? I‘m going to do that.”
One thing led to another, Tucker, and here we are. We‘re having a Mr. Heterosexual Contest. It‘s a fun, funny event with a message. The fun and funny, Tucker, is we‘re going have events like you said, the strength contest is going to be the “Oprah” magazine tear. How many can you tear? That‘s what we want to know.
We‘ll have other events like that. But the greatest part, Tucker, about the event is going to be, at the middle of the event, we‘re going to have somebody who formerly lived a homosexual lifestyle give a testimony to how they‘ve been changed through the blood of Jesus Christ.
So, you know, I‘m excited about it. And God is doing some great things with it. And it‘s crazy. It‘s crazy to be here.
CARLSON: Who‘s going to compete in this?
CROUSE: Well, we‘re going to have heterosexual men. We‘re going to have men from the state of Massachusetts. They‘re going to compete. And we‘ll probably end up doing them in a few different states, or maybe all the states. I mean, it‘s only...
CARLSON: Are you worried about non-heterosexual mean sneaking in competing? Is there going to be a test? I mean, how are you going to determine?
CROUSE: Well, you see, Tucker, there‘s no such thing as a non-heterosexual man. God created us heterosexual. There might be heterosexual men who choose to be homosexual, but there won‘t be any non-heterosexual men, because they don‘t exist.
CARLSON: OK. Well, let me...
CROUSE: How about we...
CARLSON: Let me make a prediction that I can promise you is going to come true: You‘re going to have picketers outside this.
CROUSE: I‘m aware of that, Tucker. I‘m expecting some heat. And that‘s fine. You know, we‘re doing what we think God wants us to do. And it‘s going to be a great time. It‘s going to be a great event. And we want to glorify God, and have some fun, and get the message out that Jesus Christ does change lives, so...
CARLSON: So what kind of response have you had? I mean, I‘m...
CROUSE: It‘s been crazy. It‘s been crazy. I mean, some wire service picked this up. I‘ve been doing radio talk interviews in Australia and Ireland, all over the country. But the biggest event right now, Tucker, is being on your show.
CARLSON: OK. But you—I just have to ask you about one thing you said. You said that men choose to be homosexual.
CARLSON: I mean, I know a number of people who have no interest in being homosexual, but are...
CARLSON: ... I mean, that clearly haven‘t chosen it, that would rather not be, but seem not to be able to help these feelings. It...
CROUSE: Well, I guess, Tucker, the issue is, you know, God‘s word will tell us the issue is sin and that all of us are sinners. And for some people, their choice of sin is—might be drunkenness, or drug addiction, or lying. For others, it might be the homosexual lifestyle.
And it‘s just a matter of sin. And, really, for a homosexual, the issue is not their homosexuality. The issue is their sin and that they need—that‘s why Jesus Christ went to the cross, to die for sinners. And all who would ask Christ to be their savior, he will save them from their sins and come into their lives. So it‘s as simple as that.
CARLSON: All right! Pastor Tom Crouse, you‘re going to need some help with this. Good luck.
And I‘m going to need some help for putting you on. I have a feeling there‘s going to be a crowd of protesters outside this studio when I get off the air tonight.
I do not endorse everything Pastor Crouse said, but I like the idea of tearing “Oprah” magazines in half. So I‘m glad you came on.
CROUSE: But you know what? Tucker, you know what...
CARLSON: Thanks, pastor.
CROUSE: Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
CARLSON: I appreciate it.
Coming up, last night we heard what I thought was a pretty convincing argument for the guy that lets you eat Big Macs and candy bars and still lose weight. Many of you not sold. Viewers sound off on THE SITUATION voice mail, next.
CARLSON: Welcome back. Time for our voicemail segment. We‘re in your speed dial, I can tell. You call often. We‘ve got a new answering machine tonight.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ALEX, NORTH CAROLINA: Hey, Tucker. This is Alex from Raleigh, North Carolina. I just wanted to say great job tonight with the guy who said he ate a Big Mac every day and lost 50 pounds. Definitely could never happen. You‘re just going to get fatter if you eat everything you want.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CARLSON: Actually, what he said, Courtney, was even less likely. He said, “You don‘t eat a whole Big Mac.” You order a Big Mac, and you take a bite, then you decide, “You know, I‘ve had enough.” No person in history has ever taken a single bite of a Big Mac. It‘s physically impossible. You touch a Big Mac, and you‘re eating the whole thing, period. That diet, at least on those grounds, falls down.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GLEN, TOLEDO, OREGON: This is Glen in Toledo, Oregon. I like your show. But I sure wish you‘d stop shouting down your guests. If you don‘t want to hear their opinion, don‘t ask them on the show.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CARLSON: Glen, I think you‘ve got me confused with someone on another network. Unfortunately, I never shout anybody down. I‘m way too polite. If I shouted people down, I would have a house, like, three times the size of the house I currently live in.
Shouting people down is the key to ratings. I never do it. Note to self: Shout people down, it works. But sadly, I don‘t.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
RAY, LONDON, ENGLAND: Hi, Tucker. This is Ray from London, England. Tucker, I really love your show, but do you think you could do a few more items about pandas? I‘m really into pandas.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CARLSON: That‘s funny, Ray. You hear people say, “You know, the Brits have weird sex lives.” I always defend them. You‘re making it harder for me to do. Pandas, they are the key to viewers. But, Ray, you‘re making me nervous. I don‘t know we‘ll ever put pandas on again knowing that you‘re anticipating pandas.
Let me know what you‘re thinking. Call 1-877-TCARLSON. That‘s 877-822-7576. You can also e-mail tucker@MSNBC.com. Moreover, you can check the blog, Tucker.MSNBC.com. Every day a new one.
Still ahead on THE SITUATION, I‘m not certain his HMO covers it, but this lion is getting injections of 24-carat gold nonetheless. We‘ll show you perhaps the most expensive procedure in the history of veterinary medicine, when we visit the “Cutting Room Floor,” next.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
And we‘ve taken a lot of criticism for having him on night after night, but we don‘t care. We think it‘s the right thing to do. So we‘re bringing back again tonight, Willie Geist, for the “Cutting Room Floor.”
WILLIE GEIST, PRODUCER: And I will continue to be here, despite the protests of our viewers.
CARLSON: That‘s exactly right.
GEIST: Speaking of protests, the last viewer from England who said we don‘t do enough panda stories, we‘re practically Animal Planet. We did two last week...
CARLSON: I know.
GEIST: ... and we did a story about a dog that looks like a panda, because, remember, the owner spray-painted the dog?
CARLSON: You want pandas? We got pandas. But he wanted pandas in a way that is I think is wrong and illegal in most states.
GEIST: Go ahead.
CARLSON: Thank you, Willie. Speaking of animals, veterinarians at the Rome Zoo in Italy are using a novel and presumably pretty expensive technique to treat an aging lion‘s arthritis. They‘re injecting him with 24-carat gold.
Doctors say the gold will help ease the inflammation and pain in the 13-year-old lion. He‘s been suffering from it recently. The gold method has also been used to treat humans.
GEIST: Tucker, I predict Donald Trump will have this procedure performed possibly tonight. He didn‘t know about it until now. But you mean to tell him that he can have gold coursing through his veins?
CARLSON: You know what that is, Willie?
GEIST: He‘s doing it.
CARLSON: That‘s not only medically sound, it‘s classy.
GEIST: It‘s classy. Everything he does is classy. Blood is for commoners. You got to have gold in your veins.
We here at THE SITUATION encourage everyone to get into the holiday spirit. We also believe there‘s a limit to the amount of cheer you should have.
Look, here‘s that limit now. Cheryl Jones of Albany, Georgia, owns more than 2,500 Santa Claus dolls and figurines. She spends most of her time dusting and caring for the Santas and says by the time she cleans them all it‘s time to start over again.
GEIST: Tucker, I‘m going to go out on a limb here and say she‘s probably single. Do you think?
CARLSON: I think I would say.
GEIST: She gives off that Kathy Bates in “Misery” vibe.
CARLSON: Yes, she does.
GEIST: You know what I mean? Figurines. Probably a very complex person.
CARLSON: I was about to say, if it weren‘t figurines, it would be what? Cats.
GEIST: Oh, yeah. We‘ll she‘s probably got those, too.
CARLSON: It kind of goes without saying, not that we‘re insulting anybody watching who has a lot of cats. I think it‘s...
GEIST: Or figurines for that matter.
CARLSON: Exactly. Nobody likes to be bothered after a big meal, so you can imagine how angry this anaconda was when he was captured right after devouring a 330-pound cow. Look at that thing.
CARLSON: It took seven police officers and villagers to wrangle the seven-foot-long snake. The giant anaconda vomited the cow just before environmental officials released it into a nearby river.
GEIST: I‘m glad he was able to get that up.
CARLSON: I wish we‘d video of that.
GEIST: Of the vomiting?
GEIST: Yes, we didn‘t, unfortunately. I always wonder, how do these animals allow themselves to be swallowed whole? You‘re a 330-pound cow; have a little pride! Defend yourself.
CARLSON: I know.
GEIST: You know? What, you just give up and get swallowed by a snake? Come on.
CARLSON: I know. I know. It‘s kind of an ignominious way to go.
GEIST: That‘s weak.
CARLSON: You know what I mean? It‘s not really on the field of battle.
GEIST: No, that‘s right.
CARLSON: I agree.
Well, I‘ve always believed that Brazilian hookers just don‘t get enough credit for their fashion sense.
GEIST: You have.
CARLSON: This week, a group of them set out to prove me right. The prostitutes strutted down the catwalk, or perhaps it was just a back alley in Rio, modeling their own designs. The goal of the event was to create unity among hookers in the city, because if there‘s one thing hookers need, of course, Willie, it‘s unity.
GEIST: Yes. What are those, t-shirts and flip-flops? Look out Versace. That‘s nice stuff there. That is nice stuff. Nice to see them getting along, though. Being a hooker can be very competitive.
CARLSON: I know. Nothing worse than labor strife among the prostitutes, you know what I mean?
Looking at pornography has already cost many a man his dignity. But if you live in Italy, it could soon cost you a lot of money. The Italian government has outraged the public by proposing a 20-percent porn tax. A tax on movies, magazines, and other forms of pornography could raise as much as $260 million to help reduce that country‘s ballooning national deficit.
GEIST: Listen, just because you can‘t balance a budget, don‘t blame it on me. Don‘t take it out on me and my porn.
CARLSON: I agree with that.
GEIST: This aggression will not stand.
CARLSON: I don‘t think any Italian has ever paid taxes.
GEIST: No, they have not.
CARLSON: So I think the idea that any...
GEIST: Lots of them will be paying now, though.
CARLSON: Willie Geist.
GEIST: All right, Tucker.
CARLSON: That‘s THE SITUATION for tonight. Thank you for watching. We‘ll see you back here tomorrow night. Have a great night, and merry Christmas.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.