Guest: Jossy Mansur, John Q. Kelly, Steve Cohen, Buck Jones, Ricky
Carouth, Judy Kuriansky, Robi Ludwig, Anne Bremner, Craig Hutto, Brian
Anderson, Doug Montero
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Good evening, everybody. Rita's off tonight. I'm Jane Velez-Mitchell. Tonight: What's with teachers having sex with their students? Was the class of 2005 a fluke, or are there more teachers ready for some illegal sex education? And a guy who survived a shark attack joins me LIVE AND DIRECT with his amazing story. Wait until you hear where he says he learned the technique that truly saved his life.
But first, new information in the Natalee Holloway case and what the key suspect in the case is telling an Aruban newspaper in a revealing interview. Joran Van Der Sloot is reportedly now admitting to this paper that he and Natalee Holloway had sex that night, the very night the 18-year-old vanished. The statement is a switch for Van Der Sloot. He had previously denied any allegations of having sex with Natalee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: Well, yes, I kissed with her, but neither me, Deepak or Satish ever had sex with her. And no one ever said otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is Jossy Mansur with the Aruban newspaper “Diario.” A “Diario” reporter is the person who talked to Joran Van Der Sloot on the phone. Jossy, thank you for joining us. Please walk us through the key points of this really amazing conversation. What exactly did Joran say?
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, “DIARIO”: Well, Joran said many things. He avoided, of course, giving any details on the case itself, but he did admit to the reporter that he had sex with her, that it was consensual sex. He also admitted to him that the girl was going in and out of consciousness at a certain period. And he added that the girl was coming on to him, and the more that she drank, the more she wanted to have whatever she wanted to have with him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And apparently, he also said that he expects to get questions from the Aruban government. And this is a real shocker because we had expected that he was going to be brought in for more questioning, and if they just give him a list of questions, I mean, that's almost a joke.
MANSUR: I agree with you because he's still a suspect. According to our laws, he will remain a suspect for the next year-and-a-half, at least, because six months have gone by by now. But I think that the police have the right to question him any time while he remains a suspect in the case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thank you for that, Jossy. Stand by. We want to talk to you a bit more, but let's get reaction for the attorney for Natalee Holloway's family. LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is John Q. Kelly. Sir, if this information is correct, this is a real bombshell. If they had sex and she was going in and out of consciousness, isn't that exactly why Natalee's mom felt Joran should be charged with rape?
JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, you know, he should be. This is—this would be called admissions against interest. They would certainly be admissible in U.S. courts, at least. And he's admitting to having sexual intercourse with her when she's incapable of consenting, and that constitutes rape. And I, for one, and the general public for another, have a very difficult time understanding why he's walking the streets and not being prosecuted for this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there are so many unanswered questions. This just causes all sorts of concern, I'm sure, for Natalee Holloway's mother. When did he have sex with her? Where? Were the Kalpoe brothers there? Was it on the beach? Did he leave her immediately afterwards? I mean, does this create more anxiety for her?
KELLY: Well, it does, Jane. You know, and apparently, one of the other things he had indicated to the reporter, that when the investigation was closed, and he appears confident that he's not going to be prosecuted for this, that he would give the full details. But you know, it'd be really nice, if he was half a man, that Mr. Van Der Sloot would step forward and at least indicate to the family what had happened to Natalee that night and where she was and try to give some answer and give some closure here. This cat-and-mouse game, where he's hiding behind lawyers and hiding behind his family and, you know, ducking the police and knowing all the time it's causing extreme anguish and, you know, anxiety to the family—it's just not right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stand by. We want to get back to you, but we want to
get the Aruban government's take on this alleged admission and the possible
re-questioning of the three suspects. LIVE AND DIRECT right now, island
spokesman Steve Cohen. Steve, before you say anything, I want to play what you said to Rita Cosby on this very show on December 21. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE COHEN, SPECIAL ADVISER TO ARUBAN GOVERNMENT: It is expected that he will be re-questioned somewhere in the next 10-day period. I doubt that they will bring him back for questioning immediately, but it will be in that period. And also, it is expected the Kalpoes will also be brought in for questioning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was last week. On Saturday, it will be 10 days. Obviously, they're not going to be able to question all three tomorrow. So essentially, you broke your promise to us, to the American people. He wasn't brought in for questioning.
COHEN: Oh, well—well, Jane, I think you're being overly severe with me and with the Aruban prosecutorial system. These timelines that you guys continue to create on American cable are hard to...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to interrupt you. You created the timeline. You said on December 21, the day he arrived, he will be interviewed within 10 days, and the Kalpoe brothers will also be brought in. It's going to be 10 days on Saturday. They haven't been interrogated. Joran's now saying they're going to send him some questions to answer, which he will undoubtedly answer with his attorney and with his father, who's a judge. I mean, that almost seems like a cruel joke.
COHEN: It's not a cruel joke, and I think you're wrong on a number of counts. One, the situation continues, in that there's an investigation ongoing. We do expect that he'll be brought in for questioning. We also have to expect that all three of these boys have attorneys. These attorneys do not want them to be brought in for questioning.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, when?
COHEN: There's no—there's no—there's no lies here. The when is when the investigators are ready to bring them in, when they're prepared to bring them in. It also is not the case that they have been given preordained questions, any of them or their attorneys, but it is true that the scope of the questions have been discussed with the attorneys. You would expect that to be the case.
There's no mystery here about what they're going to be questioned about. And this interview that Jossy's reporter has done, I mean, we're quite interested in that. Nobody's going to slough off any of this information. For anybody out there to think that the Aruban government and the prosecutor does not want this case to go forward or does not want a result that everyone else seems to want, which is justice—we all want justice...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Steve, with all...
COHEN: ... is not the case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... due respect, he's been there for at least eight days. He's going to go back to school in Holland. The clock is ticking. What's the hold-up? Why not bring him in? Why this wait? Why this delay?
COHEN: Well, why not allow us to prepare properly, put everything together that we want. As you know, he can go back to Holland. As long as he's in the kingdom, he can be interrogated. It is not expected that he'll go back to the kingdom before he is questioned. I want to make that clear with you. We're not moving backwards here in this investigation, we're moving forward.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jossy, I'd like to ask you, what has Joran been doing in Aruba the eight days he's been there? Has he been holed up at his parents' home, or is he out and about? Because it is possible that maybe we're not giving the Aruban government enough credit. Maybe they're tailing him. Maybe they're following him, meeting with Deepak Kalpoe and Satish. Maybe he's going back to a possible scene of the crime. And obviously, he's innocent until proven guilty, but maybe they are doing something and we just don't know about it. Jossy? Oh, Jossy? Well, maybe John—OK, Jossy, I think I hear you now.
MANSUR: OK. They are doing many things. I mean, the prosecutor is on top of the case. She's very upbeat with it. I think that she's going to make some revelations by the end of January that will be quite important. I think that the investigating team—not think, I know that the investigating team is on top of the story. They are investigating. They've talked to a whole range of friends of Joran in the past few weeks. I mean, it is moving forward. Maybe it's not coming in publicity that way, but it is moving forward.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I have to ask you, I see pictures of Joran hugging people, hand-shaking. Has he become some sort of sick celebrity in Aruba, where people are coming up to him like he's a rock star?
MANSUR: Absolutely not. In Holland, for example, he told the reporter that people don't even know who he is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I'm talking about Aruba, though.
MANSUR: I'm getting to that. In Aruba, he says that when he walks in the streets, some people wave at him, wave to him, and other peoples come and wish him a happy new year, et cetera. That's just courtesy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And apparently, he told your reporter, When this all solved, I will come out and tell the real story. What do you think he means by that? Is he goading people, saying, Hey, I know a lot that you don't know? Because what everybody—the entire world wants him to tell the real story right now, today.
MANSUR: I agree with that, but I think that what he means, what he said to the reporter is that after the case is solved, he will come out and put all the blame on this girl. He's going to come out and say exactly what she did that was wrong with him, and not vice versa.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Steve. Well, I want to get your side of the story. I really do. I think there's a lot of impatience, but perhaps the Aruban government is doing something right now that you want to explain to us in terms of preparing for this interrogation.
COHEN: I would like to, but I just can't. I mean, there's a number of things that they are doing that are part of the background of the investigation. There has to be some lack of transparency as you go through an investigation. I know that everyone would agree with that. At the same time, we understand the impatience, but the lack of transparency about this investigation does not mean, as Jossy just said, that things are not going forward.
The final result of it, I don't think we know. But the result we want is to be able to bring justice to this case, but we cannot and will not reveal the techniques that are being employed at this moment that may bring us the break in the case that we're looking for.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, John Q. Kelly, what do you make of all this? You're an attorney. You've dealt with situations like this. What could they be working on that would preclude them from bringing in this young man and the other two?
KELLY: Jane, for the life of me, I don't know. I mean, they've had four months to prepare for any interrogation of Joran they want to conduct when he came back from college. You know, they claimed they were working on an ongoing investigation. Things change daily. You know, we had a 10-day timeline. That's obviously not being stuck to now. It's my understanding that the Kalpoes' attorneys are fighting the accessibility of their clients. They might not be brought in at all, and who knows when Joran's even going to be brought in. At this point, he's sort of taunting us, taunting the family, taunting the American public and taunting the system with his cockiness and his tight-lipped-ness that he won't give answers and he won't help the family out at all. And we need some answers. We need a prosecution. We need results.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And John, let's say he is brought in. Does he have any incentive to talk now and say something that he hasn't said before? He's changed his story many times. What pressure can they bring to bear on him to break this standstill?
KELLY: I don't know. I mean, it's rather disturbing to even hear that they'd even talked about the scope of the interrogation ahead of time so he can prepare for that. Yes, clearly, they know they're going to ask him about that night and the after-actions of both he and the Kalpoes, but I don't think they should be giving him the scope of the interrogation and what ground they're going to cover.
And you know, the whole situation is sad. I'm going to try to reserve judgment. I have my own thoughts on this. But you know, we want to see results. Hopefully, we'll get results. But right now, the ball's in their court, and they're certainly will be hearing about it if we don't see results down the road from the investigation they keep alluding to.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Steve, you represent the Aruban government, the Aruban people. This is not just for the Holloway family but for the Aruban people. They want closure, too. They want to see tourism back to its normal levels. How is that going? Are tourists coming in?
COHEN: Yes, they are. Obviously, we're not going to pretend that this hasn't all had an impact on tourism. Tourism is off a few percentage points. But any percentage point hurts the island. The important thing is the psychology of people in the United States is very important to the Aruban government, and we want people to believe that Aruba is a safe place to come. However, this case is in the way of some of that, and we know that we can't back to the Aruba that we want it to be until this case is resolved.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Steve, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to answer some tough questions, and we do appreciate it. And last question to John. How is Beth holding up? I mean, here we are in the middle of the holidays, and she's still in a waiting game.
KELLY: Well, you know, she is. You know, Christmas, you know, Thanksgiving was extremely difficult. Christmas, you know, when I talked to her afterwards, she said there was just—she never thought she'd get through that day. And it's just—you know, you hug your child, you kiss her, you tell her you love her and you tell her you'll see her in a few days at the highlight of her, you know, 18 years, and she's never been able to talk to her again, hold her again and has no answers to this date. So it is, you know, almost impossible for her right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I'm sure the emotions really come up on Christmas. That certainly does happen. Psychologists will say that. Thank you so much, John. Thank you, Jossy. Jossy, great work on that exclusive interview with Joran Van Der Sloot.
Still ahead: Wildfires break out again in Texas, and more than a quarter of one town is now homeless. We have the latest live. And that's not all. Take a look at this.
Still ahead: Cops find a porn star who was on the run. Just wait until you hear what she was accused of doing and where they found her. Plus, a man who survived a shark attack. Learn how to get out alive. He joins me LIVE AND DIRECT.
And Pamela Turner, Beth Geisel, and who can forget Debra Lafave? These women gave their underage students a very adult lesson in love. Is it something in the water, or will more students get hot for teacher? It's coming up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We promised you we would stay on the case of a porn star on the run, and now we can report she has been nabbed in Oklahoma, thanks in part to this very show. Genevieve Silva was arrested at her mother's home in Roosevelt, Oklahoma, yesterday. She is charged with drugging a 15-year-old boy during sexual encounters over the summer.
Live on the phone with us tonight is Sheriff Buck Jones from Kiowa County, Oklahoma. Thank you for joining us. You were there when Genevieve Silva was arrested. Tell us about the crucial moments of this capture.
SHERIFF BUCK JONES, KIOWA COUNTY, OKLAHOMA: Yes. Hi, Jane. How are you?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How are you doing tonight?
JONES: Now, Sheriff—under-sheriff Terry Tyler (ph) and I went to Roosevelt and served the warrant on Miss Silva. There were no incidents. She was taken into custody and brought to the Kiowa County jail.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I understand that as a result of us focusing on this case on Tuesday night here on the Rita Cosby show, California authorities called Oklahoma authorities and said, Hey, you guys do something about this. Go find this girl. And you went to the mother's house and got her, is that correct?
JONES: That is correct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, can I ask you, why didn't you do that sooner? Because apparently, this is the same house where they found the boy that she's accused of doing all this to way back in October.
JONES: We didn't get the warrant on this girl until just the other day. We'd had contact with her back in September. That was the first contact, but at the time, there wasn't anything on her that we knew about.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I mean, she's facing some really serious charges here, statutory rape, rape using a controlled substance. And this boy was found way back in October. So what's the hold-up, considering that this is a pretty serious case?
JONES: Well, at the time the boy was found, there was no charges on her at the time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, so you basically didn't consider her a suspect at the time.
JONES: Right. We didn't have any charges on her here, and we didn't know about any charges out in California until just recently, when they sent us the warrant.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that make sense because the boy apparently admitted the relationship after he was found and put in rehab. But it also makes sense that they had to know something was going on because he was found at the mother's home. Now, I have to ask you about the age of consent here because this is such a confusing issue, and it relates to a lot of stories. The age of consent is different in California than it is in Oklahoma. I believe it's 18 in California. It's younger in Oklahoma, 16. So when they went from California to Oklahoma, and let's say they had sex in Oklahoma, allegedly, that wouldn't be a crime, right?
JONES: It could be, but there's been no charges filed here in Oklahoma.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, the reason I'm asking you, sir is that this young girl, who's 20 years old, could go away for a long, long time. Do you believe that she really is a sexual predator? Or is she a young girl, who looks a lot younger than 20, who had a relationship with somebody who's five years younger than her? And he's now rehab. Maybe she needs help. Maybe she needs to go to rehab and get help, too, instead of being thrown in the clinker for a long time.
JONES: I'm sure she probably needs some help. She does look very young, younger than her age. And she probably does need a lot of help. And she may, again, need to go away for a long time, too, for these alleged crimes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Sheriff. We do thank you for taking the time for joining us. And once again, we're going to stay on top of this story and see what happens to this young lady, who by the way, is a porn star, on top of everything else, some dubious achievements by the age of 20, I would have to say. I'm sure you would agree with me, Sheriff, on that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, thank you, sir.
We are following a developing story in Texas right now, a string of grass fires in Texas and Oklahoma that are being blamed for at least four deaths. The flames have ravaged at least 20,000 acres in both states. Hundreds of now people are now homeless. Cross Plains, Texas, is the town hardest hit by the fires. Some homes in the town have been reduced to rubble.
LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is NBC's Charles Hadlock. Charles, just how bad is this damage?
CHARLES HADLOCK, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jane, I'm standing in the living room of what was a home here in Cross Plains, Texas, totally devastated by the fire. Cross Plains is a small town. About a thousand people live here. Everyone seems to know everyone else here, and tonight, everyone is hurting. One hundred sixteen homes in this small town were destroyed. Another 36 were damaged. Governor Rick Perry today toured the area. He declared the area a disaster area yesterday. Authorities say $4.1 million in damage to homes in Callahan County alone.
And Texas is not alone in suffering this. Oklahoma, as well. It seems that today, from the Red River all the way to Oklahoma City, there was a fire. The largest fire was in Oklahoma City County, or Oklahoma County, just around Oklahoma City. There, almost every fire department available was fighting this fire, 10,000 acres that had livestock on the run as it burned buildings and barns in its path.
Back here in Cross Plains, the town is still smoldering. There are embers all around town. Fire officials have been going around the town today, helping put those out before the winds pick up again tomorrow.
And joining me now tonight is assistant fire chief of Cross Plains Ricky Carouth. Ricky, thanks for joining us tonight. Not only are you the fire chief, you also lost two houses in this fire.
RICKY CAROUTH, CROSS PLAINS, TEXAS, ASST. FIRE CHIEF: Yes, sir.
HADLOCK: This is the type of fire we would expect to see in the hills of California, not the plains of Texas. Did this surprise you?
CAROUTH: Yes, sir, this is a great surprise. We never had anything of this magnitude in any part of this country in here.
HADLOCK: It seems almost impossible that a fire like a grassfire couldn't be stopped. Explain why it couldn't in this case.
CAROUTH: There's so much vegetation. Back there in the summer, we had pretty good rains and a lot of vegetation and lot of (INAUDIBLE) grasses on the fields in front of us, a lot of fuel for the fire. And you get a 65-foot wall of fire coming down with a 35 mile-an-hour wind behind it, you're not going to put it out with just a little bit of water.
HADLOCK: But you were telling me that even if you had every tanker in the county here, what would happen?
CAROUTH: I don't think—we had over 30 apparatuses here. I don't believe if you had them lined up on the street here, with everybody spraying water, that you could have—could have put it out as fast as it was rolling through town.
HADLOCK: It was a fast-moving fire.
CAROUTH: Less than 20 minutes—between 20 to 30 minutes, it done went through town and two miles on down the road.
HADLOCK: And the devastation will last for a long, long time. Thanks a lot, Assistant Chief Ricky Carouth.
And Jane, the fire marshal here in Texas says that he's telling the firefighters all across the state, and residents, as well, to expect a long, dry and difficult winter ahead—Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So sad. Looks like a war zone. Thank you for that, Charles. Thanks for that report.
Coming up, the amazing stories of not one but two people who were attacked by sharks and lived to tell their tales. Just wait until you hear how they got out alive.
And next, the sexy class of 2005, teachers in big trouble for illegal sex education with their students. Is this something new, or are there more teachers out there about to cross that line? We'll tell you next.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A disturbing and growing trend in public and private schools, more and more cases of teacher/student sexual relationships rocking school districts across the country, and the details are really shocking. There have been nearly two dozen reported cases of female teachers having sex with their male students this year alone. These accused women range in age from 23 to 50 years old, and most of them leave court with just a slap on the wrist.
Let's talk more about what's going on with this trend. Joining us now, trial attorney Anne Bremner. Anne, of course, had close ties to the infamous Mary Kay Letourneau trial. Also joining us is psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig and clinical psychologist and talk radio host Dr. Judy Kuriansky.
Dr. Judy, let's start with you. What the heck is going on with these older women and these boys?
JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, think about it. First of all, it's tremendously exciting to be desired and admired. And so these girls may be 24, and like with Michael Jackson—you covered that case, Jane—they don't feel much older than the teenage boys. They regress back to being back that age. And it's exciting to have young boys have a crush on them. So that's why they fall prey to it, even if they're married and have children and have a baby in the back seat.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And take a look at some of these women, Dr. Robi Ludwig. They are attractive. They are really good-looking. They have a lot of things in common—well educated, attractive and married and teachers. And I have a theory about this, and Dr. Robi, I'd like to get your reaction to this. I think these women used to get a lot of attention when they were single, OK? And men were all over them. And then they get married, and oh, they're taken, they're unavailable. In their circle of friends, they're off-limits. But that's what they derive their self-esteem from. So where do they go to get that kind of feedback? They're getting it in the classroom from these 14, 15, 16, 17-year-old boys who are very hormonal and who are really giving them the kind of feedback that they used to crave.
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I think you're absolutely right. And also, marriage is a lot about reality. So it's very possible the feeling that they want to get they're not able to get from their husbands whether they're doing laundry, and they're making dinner, and they're feeding the baby.
And when they're in the classroom, they might emotionally feel more in sync with the children or the teenagers that they're teaching. There's a lot of sexuality in the air. They might not know how to handle a teenager coming onto them, because a lot of these teachers don't get regular supervision, like therapists do, on what do you do if an attractive student comes on to you you're attracted to them?
So, in part, they don't get the training on how to handle it. It is very exciting. And if you top that with a mood disorder, or if you're impulsive, or if you never got to experience that in high school the first time around, it's very tempting.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I know, Anne Bremner, you're not a sex therapist.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: No, I'm not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You're an attorney. But you have dealt with the Mary Kay Letourneau case. You deal with a lot of cases. I mean, what do you sense is going on here? Is this a case of women who are looking for attention?
Because a lot of them did not do this in the past. They don't have a history, like a lot of the men, of being serial pedophiles who go from victim to victim to victim. They literally fall in love with their students.
BREMNER: They do. Well, you know, it's said men are demonized and women are diagnosed in these cases. And that's part of it.
But, Jane, you and I covered the Michael Jackson trial. And I always thought I could do a paper, comparative analysis, between Michael Jackson and Mary Kay Letourneau, arrested development, romanticizing things, Peter Pan, all children except for one grow up. That's part of it, too, and it's attention. Who but a 12-year-old would worship a woman and think there's nothing wrong with her and that she's perfect? The rest of us, we don't have that in our lives.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Dr. Judy...
BREMNER: And that's that perfection that they're seeking.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, you are bringing up a very important issue, in terms of sex and sexual development. Dr. Judy, is there a physical sexual aspect to this? Because experts will say that women are at their sexual peak in their 40s and men or boys are at their sexual peak when they're 18. So, in a way, are they physiologically matched, like magnets being drawn together?
KURIANSKY: Well, that's very correct. I'm going to give you an honorary degree there, Jane, because of that very appropriate analysis there.
Indeed, the boys are developing. And they have raging hormones. And don't forget: They're falling with crushes. This is the age of the crush. What 30-year-old guy is going to have the same crush on the women?
And you're right, physiologically, women become not only sexually uninhibited at that time, they become more confident, in all aspects of their lives. And therefore, they can feel more free and uninhibited. And that aspect of being adored, admired, and having the arrested development all fall in together.
There are different profiles though, because some of these women, in fact, are in that arrested development. And some of them are just filled with the fact that they can control men. They may feel controlled by men in other aspects of their lives. Their husbands may tell them what to do. But in this situation, they get to be the authority figure. And that power that they have is what is also seductive.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Dr. Robi, what can we do about this?
Obviously, this is a crazy solution if these women are seeking attention. And we know men have outlets. They can go to strip clubs. And I'm not saying we condone this, but obviously a lot of men do this, or they can surf the web for x-rated sites or they can call x-rated phone lines. That's not how women work, mentally, psychologically. So do they not have a outlet, a healthy outlet? Is that why they're going to these sick outlets?
LUDWIG: No, I mean, I think also you have to look at, why is it happening in the women's life when it is happening? And if a woman for some reason is teaching and she finds that her needs are not getting met emotionally outside of the classroom, then that's something she needs to work on individually in therapy.
She needs to find a way to have a healthy social life with people in her own age group. If something is going on in her marriage that's unfulfilling, then that's something that needs to be addressed there.
The school system also has to recognize that there are rules against certain relationships because there is an impulse to have those kinds of relationships. So let's just call a spade a spade and say, “Hey, this is a natural inclination. Let's educate our teachers about it. Let's educate the community about it. And let's educate families about it, so that they're very in touch on what's going on in their children's lives.”
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, but I have to say, when it comes to...
KURIANSKY: I think men need...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead, Dr. Judy.
KURIANSKY: I think men need to be really educated, too. The men they're married to need to treat those women like goddesses and allow them to be as adored as they are by these young boys. That would be healthy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Treating women like goddesses is the answer to everybody's problem. But, you know, it is a very, very serious, serious situation that we're dealing with here, because, while we can make light of sexual issues, the trauma on some of these boys is real.
And, Anne Bremner, what do you see is a societal solution to this? I mean, locking these women up isn't going to cure them. But is that the way to stop them?
BREMNER: No, I think that actually, with these women, they're not pedophiles. Mary Kay Letourneau, if she was a pedophile, would be with her next 12-year-old, and she's not. She married her victim, who's now 22.
But the other part is, they're not predatory. They seem to have just the one obsession, the one that they love. Mary Kay Letourneau called herself the Joan of Arc in love. That having being said, locking them up I don't think protects society to the extent it does with men.
So I think we need to not glorify it. Mary Kay Letourneau, $1 million for her wedding, all the publicity, all the tabloid attention. The calls I get still are staggering. And I think that's one part. These are all beautiful women. It's like, you know, “The Graduate” in the summer of '42. And it shouldn't be glorified in that way.
And, as Robi said, also, there should be therapy and everything else, but this is a real anomaly in the United States, these types of cases. And, hopefully, we won't see more.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to tell you, it's spreading. It's spreading to Britain and it's spreading to Australia.
BREMNER: Yes, that's right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They've seen the same cases, the same types of cases, sky rocketing. So this seems to be some kind of trend.
BREMNER: But, Jane, one other thing I wanted to say is, you know, is it about love? Is it about money? You know, there's a lot here, a lot more than just your standard sex offender case that we can take a look at and try to make some changes so we don't have victimization.
But one final thing: The boys are not as damaged as the girls. That's what the studies show. So we need to look at this realistically. I mean, we need to add accurate information.
KURIANSKY: Well, the boys may not be as damaged. They may not be as damaged, but they are damaged.
BREMNER: That's true.
KURIANSKY: And the point is that there's sexual stereotyping that the boys are supposed to love it, that they are being treated so well, that they can go tell their friends, “Oh, look who I got. I got the teacher.”
But I have seen boys who have been damaged by this. And it started years ago in Connecticut when they first realized nine cases of young boys who were traumatized by the fact that they were approached. People think you can't have sex with a guy if you force him, but you actually can. So the boys need to be taught, too.
LUDWIG: And also, too, if you look at the population of these boys, very often, these are the boys that don't have a strong family system and somebody to turn to. So they are a little bit more vulnerable to teacher attention and perhaps even liking and needing the attention of an older woman.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it's a fascinating subject. I think we all could sit here and talk about this for hours. Unfortunately, we don't have hours. Thank you so much for joining us. Good insight.
Still ahead, the actor who starred in the movie “A Bronx Tale” gives his first prison interview. Find out what happened the night he got caught up in a deadly shootout with police.
And a shark attack survivor finds a unique way to save his life. He's going to tell us where he learned the technique that got rid of his attacker, next.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, we have two unbelievable stories of survival against one of nature's most agile and powerful creatures: the shark. Last week, Brian Anderson was surfing off the coast of Oregon when a 10-foot-long great white shark attacked him. He walked away alive using a trick he learned on—where else—television. And in June, 17-year-old Craig Hutto lost his leg to a shark bite while fishing in Florida.
Both survivors join me tonight. And I want to thank you both and say we're so happy that you both are alive to talk about all of this.
Brian, let's start with you. You felt something grab your leg. And then what happened? What happened after that?
BRIAN ANDERSON, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR: After that, I looked down and I saw it. And I just registered in my mind that it was a great white shark. And after that, I just—I had to punch it as quickly as I could. And it let go. And then I started paddling in.
And then I was just thinking, “Oh, dear god, I hope I make it in alive.” And I just started thinking about my family. And I just didn't want this day to be the day that my life ended. So...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I bet you the seconds really slowed down as you were dealing with all of this.
ANDERSON: Oh, yes. They really slowed down once I started paddling back in. I was looking at a friend of mine in sight of me and he was paddling into shore, too. And I just wanted to get in onto the beach as quickly as I could.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I'm absolutely fascinated that you saw a TV show, the Discovery Channel, and you learned something, not knowing you would ever have to use it. And then you suddenly had to use that information.
This is the clip of what you were watching. Tell us how that taught you how to respond when it actually counted?
ANDERSON: Well, yes, I always enjoyed—I always liked watching sharks. And I thought they were really fascinating when I was young as a kid. And as surfing, you always think about, well, what if that happened to me? What would I do?
And I just enjoy watching the Discovery Channel and “Shark Week.” And I just finally found out that the nose of the shark and the eyes were really sensitive areas. And you can hit those if you get a chance. And that's what I did, so—and it worked.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I have to tell you, I could sort of get a tiny fraction of your terror. I was swimming once. And I saw what turned out to be a dolphin. But I didn't know it was a dolphin. And I got out of that water so fast, I couldn't believe that I could swim as fast as I could.
And you talked about the panic after the shark went away. But you were heading towards shore, not knowing if you would make it back on time.
ANDERSON: Oh, yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So that was fear, I guess, just raw fear?
ANDERSON: Yes. Yes. And we've also been chased out of the water by sea lions, too. I mean, when you see stuff out there that's bigger than you, it's always scary.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We want to see your booty.
ANDERSON: Well, here it is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I'm making a little joke, because I can joke with you, because you're looking good and you survived. But show us your booty.
ANDERSON: Here it is. See it?VELEZ-MITCHELL: That's where the shark bit?
ANDERSON: Yes, that's—so we finally figured out that this back here—this is where the top and the back of the jaw of the shark was like this. So my foot was in the back end of the jaw at the beginning, as the nose curves around like this. And then the front part of the jaw came across my shin bone. So that's what happened. And that's the rear upper jaw that hit my heel there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we're so glad you made it out of that.
Craig Hutto, you lost a leg. You were actually about 60 feet from shore. You were fishing. What happened to you? And how did your brother help save your life?
CRAIG HUTTO, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR: Well, me and Brian, we were out fishing about 30 yards from the shore. And all of a sudden, something bumped my left leg. And when that did that, I kind of jumped back. And that's when it grabbed me on the right leg and it took me under. And then when I come up, I just screamed for help. And that's when Brian started making his way over there. And that's when we started making our way back to the shore.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But your brother did something very similar to what happened in the first case with Brian? What did he do?
HUTTO: Well, when we made it to the shore, he did—he kind of rolled the shark's head over on top of me. And that's when he punched it two or three times as hard as he could. And when he did that, it just let go and swam away.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, you were a star athlete before this incident. You are a star athlete today. Congratulations. I hear you're doing a triathlon, which will actually involve you going into the water.
HUTTO: Yes, ma'am.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, tell me about that. How do you train for that?
HUTTO: Well, right now, since it's the wintertime, I'm going to the local gym. And they have an indoor pool. And I have a swimming coach. And he's just teaching me, really, how to swim properly. And I'm just doing that three to four times a week. And then, when the summertime comes, I'll go to an outdoor pool. And then next year, when it comes, I'll just get back into the ocean.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You have an amazing attitude. Are you scared at all about getting back into the ocean, or are you pretty cool with it?
HUTTO: No, I'm cool with it, because getting bit by a shark is a once in a lifetime thing. And you just don't need to be worrying about that stuff when you go in the ocean.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian, what is—final question, what's your attitude towards the ocean? Are you ready to take the plunge and go back in?
ANDERSON: Yes, when I'm all healed up, I'll be back in for sure.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You will, no fear?
ANDERSON: Yes. Well, I might not surf by myself—I might not surf by myself anymore, because my friends helped me get back to the beach. And without them, I don't know how it would have ended up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it ended up great. You two guys look amazing.
I wish you the best, and I'm just glad that you're here to tell your tale.
You got a good one for the rest of your life.
ANDERSON: All right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, thank you.
There is a lot coming up here on MSNBC tonight. Let's check in with Joe Scarborough for a preview—Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: Thanks so much, Jane.
If you think the waters are frightening, what about the skies over America? I mean, America's government has responded to the 9/11 crisis basically by pulling over grandmas and boy scouts and frisking them.
Now, they've got a new approach: They're going to start polite conversations with air travelers to see if they can make them nervous. Well, I'll tell you what. I'm nervous, Jane, because, again, they're not using basic profiling techniques that police officers use in all crimes. And we're, of course, talking about the safety and the well-being of Americans. And once again, when you get the P.C. police involved, it always seemed to be Americans who end up in the cross hairs. We're going to be talking about that and a lot more in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”—Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Important controversy. Thank you for that, Joe. See you at the top of the hour.
Still ahead, the former “Sopranos” actor charged in the killing of a police officer breaks down talking about the night it happened. What else did he say? It's next.
And a shocking story of a corrections officer finding the fight of his life outside of prison. Details of what happened, coming up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A former “Sopranos” actor gives more than just answers in an exclusive interview from behind bars. The “New York Post” reports that tears were shed during the 40 minutes spent with accused cop killer Lillo Brancato. The 29-year-old actor is charged with the felony murder of a New York police officer.
Brancato is best known for playing Robert De Niro's son in a 1993 movie “A Bronx Tale.” He also had a recurring role in HBO's second season of “The Sopranos.”
Joining me now live is the reporter who interviewed him, Doug Montero from the “New York Post,” by phone.
Doug, first of all, good work on your exclusive. Congrats on that. Brancato, apparently, according to you, cried. He said he had absolutely no idea his partner in this crime, the alleged shooter, had a gun. Do you believe him, or were these sort of crocodile tears, do you think?
DOUG MONTERO, “NEW YORK POST”: Well, I think it was absolutely correct when he said that he had, you know, no idea that this incident was going to occur. Whether he knew that his pal had the gun or not is questionable, but I do believe that he was totally unaware of the fact that his evening was going to turn out to be a murder. And I could tell by the sincerity that he had in his eyes that that was the last thing that he expected in his life.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But he was drunk. He was on a hunt for drugs. He admits that to you, and he admits having a drug and alcohol problem, right?
MONTERO: Absolutely. And that's what gives his story more validity, the fact that he wasn't trying to indicate that, you know, “Oh, you know, I was totally sober, I'm a good boy,” or anything like that. No. He laid it all out on the line. He basically—as a matter of fact, he was talking so much, it was very difficult to kind of keep him, you know...
MONTERO: ... on an interview, to keep him from not saying anything. He just kept on going and going, and he laid it all out for me. And one of the things that I kind of was surprised was his honesty. And I believed what he was saying.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, this was such a weird crime. The details are quite strange. They were drunk. They decided to go to a friend of his house, a guy who is dead, deceased person's home, and break into the basement apartment in order to get some valium. And apparently, he had done this before. Can you tell us about this?
MONTERO: Well, interestingly enough, as far as, you know, going over to the house and exactly what he did at the apartment, at the location of the murder scene, he declined to comment on that issue.
But he basically admitted to just about everything else after the fact, especially at the time that he was shot, and how he reacted to it. And he kept insisting that he was totally unaware of the fact that the officer was a policeman. He claimed that not only that his pal didn't have a weapon, but he also claimed that he at that time did not know that the gentleman that was approaching him was a police officer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he was shot twice.
MONTERO: Three times. The third bullet supposedly grazed him right under his armpit.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, once again, excellent work in getting that interview. A very tragic, tragic story, obviously, for the officer's family all the way around. Just a sad, sad case. Thank you so much.
MONTERO: All right. Thank you. Good night.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good night.
Still ahead, a corrections officer has the fight of his life. And believe it or not, this attack isn't in prison. The shocking details, next.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Amazing pictures tonight. First, in Oregon, a life or death struggle in the middle of an Oregon emergency room. A man was waiting for a doctor when he suddenly pulled a knife on a corrections officer who was overseeing an inmate. The deputy used a taser to stop his attacker.
In case you were wondering, police say the attacker has no history of mental problems but had been detained by deputies more than 10 years ago.
And in Miami, a store owner couldn't believe his eyes when he watched thieves walking off with hundreds of dollars worth of stereo equipment on his security camera video. The shop's owner says he's in the market for a better security system. He should have told Santa Claus.
Well, that's LIVE & DIRECT. I'm Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Rita Cosby. “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with Joe starts right now.
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