Guests: Tim Cowlishaw, Kevin Marino, Emily Smith, Wendy Murphy, Joe Tacopina
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Up first tonight, Vice President Dick Cheney under the microscope for shooting his own friend while hunting in Texas and questions about why he may have sat on the information, waiting nearly a day to get the news out.
Just a few hours ago, we received a statement from the Kenedy County Sheriff‘s Department in Texas saying, quote, “This department is fully satisfied that this was no more than a hunting accident.”
LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is reporter Aaron Drawhorn. He‘s with NBC affiliate KRIS in Corpus Christi, Texas. Aaron, first of all, how‘d the shooting happen? Give us the update on that.
AARON DRAWHORN, KRIS-TV: Well, the shooting happened when, according to the eyewitness, Katherine Armstrong, the property owner—she says that Mr. Whittington failed to announce himself when he was out there hunting. Vice President Cheney thought he was good to fire away, and he ended up getting sprayed—the—Mr. Whittington.
COSBY: What‘s the condition, as we‘re looking at a picture of Mr.
Whittington? Where exactly was he shot? How is he doing tonight?
DRAWHORN: Well, he‘s doing much better than he was yesterday. He, in fact, has been taken out of the intensive care unit at the hospital today, and he‘s doing well in a regular room this afternoon. We‘re told he‘s making jokes. He‘s able to walk around, and realizing as he reads the newspaper headlines, that he‘s become somewhat of a national celebrity after all of this.
COSBY: Tell us about the pellets, too, the type of gun that was used, the type of pellets that were used.
DRAWHORN: Well, Mr. Cheney was using a 28-gage shotgun when he was hunting. And this is not anything with a bullet because that would completely destroy the bird. Basically, this is called bird shot. And as this shell right here goes up into the air, all of these pellets, Rita, end up coming out. And all these pellets ended up hitting Mr. Whittington. So he had these pellets all over his face, over other parts of his body. And some of them, we‘re told, are lodged pretty deeply into his skin. Some can be removed with tweezers. And according to a doctor here, some of them will actually stay with him for the rest of his life, much like shrapnel from a war victim.
COSBY: And it‘s something that he‘s OK to have in his system because it‘s not hitting any potential areas, is that right?
DRAWHORN: Right. And he‘s doing very well. In fact, he‘s expected to be released from the hospital either tomorrow or the next day. Typically, with a hunting accident like this, where someone gets pepper-sprayed, as it‘s called, from these pellets, that will pretty much take about four days in the hospital.
COSBY: And Aaron, real quick, you know, we heard from Scott McClellan, of course, the president‘s spokesperson. You know, White House taking a lot of heat today. I want to show first Scott McClellan, then I‘m going to ask you a question afterwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The vice president thought that Mrs. Armstrong should be the first one to get that information out since she was an eyewitness.
DAVID GREGORY, NBC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The vice president of the United States accidentally shoots a man, and he feels that it‘s appropriate for a ranch owner who had witnessed this to tell the local Corpus Christi newspaper and not the White House press corps at large or notify the public in a national way?
MCCLELLAN: Well, I think we all know that once it is made public, then it‘s going to be news and all of you are going to be seeking that information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Aaron, just what‘s the reaction on the ground in terms of the fact that it went to the local press first and not the national press, who obviously is so much in touch with the White House?
DRAWHORN: Well, that‘s not really surprising. Vice President Cheney
he does come here to south Texas usually a couple times a year, and there‘s always a rumor on when exactly he will arrive at this ranch. We found out about 10 minutes after he left the hospital here, which was a 15-minute visit. But it was a local newspaper who picked up on it when he came here to visit.
COSBY: And of course, the White House press corps is upset about hearing it that way. Thanks very much, Aaron. Please keep us posted. We appreciate it.
And now to the controversy surrounding Wayne Gretzky and the bust of an illegal betting ring. Today, Wayne Gretzky responded to reporters‘ questions on his involvement before heading to the Olympics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAYNE GRETZKY, PHOENIX COYOTES HEAD COACH: There‘s no story about me. That‘s what I keep trying to tell you. I‘m not involved. It‘s been a hard week, you know, but I‘m here, and you know, I‘ll be all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, investigators are looking into the possibility that Gretzky‘s wife placed the bets and into whether Gretzky‘s assistant coach with the Phoenix Coyotes hockey team, former hockey player Rick Tocchet, is also involved.
Joining us now LIVE AND DIRECT is defense attorney Kevin Marino. He is representing Rick Tocchet. Kevin, first of all, let me show the charges that are coming down right now against Rick Tocchet. Again, these are just preliminary, but it‘s conspiracy, promoting gambling, also money laundering. How serious do you think these charges are? And what‘s your client‘s reaction?
KEVIN MARINO, RICK TOCCHET‘S ATTORNEY: They‘re very serious charges, and his reaction is that he‘s not guilty of them.
COSBY: Where does he think all this came from? Because as we‘re hearing, it‘s a $1.7 million ring. We all sort of know this story is part of a sting, a trooper even involved. Is he saying he didn‘t bet at all? Or what is he saying his involvement was?
MARINO: Well, the way this works is he is accused of certain offenses. Those are set forth in a criminal complaint, and you‘ve just outlined them. His response to those charges is he‘s not guilty of them. He did not finance a gambling ring. He does not have organized crime ties. He never profited off betting. So the notion that Rick Tocchet is the ringleader of something called “Operation Slapshot” is really just—it‘s not the case.
COSBY: So Kevin, how does he think these charges came about? Because you know, of course, you know, law enforcement, they‘re looking into something and they hear a name like Rick Tocchet, they hear a name like Wayne Gretzky, you got to bet that they probably do a pretty thorough investigation before this point.
MARINO: Well, you would hope that that‘s the case.
COSBY: You certainly would hope. Exactly.
MARINO: But unfortunately, it does not appear to have been the case. And Rick Tocchet and Wayne Gretzky and Janet Jones—those aren‘t the first names that were heard. The first name that was heard was the name of a New Jersey state trooper. And so instead of a corruption scandal or an official misconduct scandal involving a New Jersey state policeman, you have suddenly a hockey scandal.
COSBY: Are you saying that they went after him because of the hockey name, it brings it to a whole other level?
MARINO: Well, it‘s very difficult to ignore the fact that what you have here is all these delicious elements of American life—the Mafia and Hollywood and sports. And mix them altogether, and it makes for a great story. Only it‘s not a story. And this—these are people‘s lives. A few moments ago, you showed Mr. Gretzky saying, “There‘s no story about me.” He‘s right. He hasn‘t done anything wrong. No one has even suggested he‘s done anything wrong, and yet the man is forced to defend himself against these rumors and this innuendo. It‘s really reprehensible.
COSBY: But yet, his wife—and of course, you understand because it‘s authorities who are bringing about the allegation—what do you make of the whole thing of then—of Janet Jones and Rick? I mean, was it—is there a misconstruing language here? Is there misconstruing actions? What did he do? Or what did they do?
MARINO: Well, you know, misconstruing implies confusion. I don‘t know that there‘s any confusion on the part of those who initially assessed these charges. I think it‘s hard for me to imagine there was any confusion. But I‘ll tell you this. When the facts are known—and obviously, we‘re not responding specifically to each and every factual matter that‘s raised, but when the facts are known, the story that will emerge will be 180 degrees different from the story that has emerged to date.
COSBY: Well, that‘s interesting because, of course, we haven‘t heard that. And we‘re glad you‘re on here to present that side. It‘s great, Kevin. You know, real quick, I want to ask you about his leave of absence. Rick took a leave of absence from the NHL. Is that by his choice? Whose decision was that and why?
MARINO: We proposed—we met with Commissioner Betman (ph) and counsel for the league, Robert Clearly (ph), last Wednesday evening, and we proposed that Mr. Tocchet be permitted to take a leave of absence. He did not want to be a distraction to the team. He did not want to be a distraction to the league. And he obviously has serious matters to attend to.
And the commissioner, I must say, was extremely gracious in granting that leave and imposing certain conditions upon it to make it clear that the league will be safeguarded. But he‘s been—the commissioner has been absolutely terrific about it, and even though, certainly, Rick Tocchet is not happy to be out from behind the bench, he understands the severity of this situation. He‘s absolutely committed to fighting these charges. And really, the best way to do that is by, for the moment, being separated from hockey.
COSBY: Well, Kevin, please keep us posted. We‘ll definitely be following this story. And again, Rick Tocchet‘s attorney, thank you for being with us.
MARINO: Thanks for having me.
COSBY: Thank you.
And I want to bring, if I could, Tim Cowlishaw. He‘s a panelist on ESPN‘s TV show “Around the Horn” and he‘s also a sports columnist with “The Dallas Morning News.” You know, Tim, as we just heard from Kevin, he said it‘s going to be 180 degrees difference. This is sort of the first time we‘ve heard from the other side. Is it possible that there‘s just some confusion, that they were targeting him because it‘s the big name of hockey?
TIM COWLISHAW, ESPN “AROUND THE HORN”: Well, I mean, he‘s Rick‘s lawyer, so he‘s hired to come out with that conclusion. You know, but, as you said, when you throw out names like Wayne Gretzky‘s, Rick Tocchet, Wayne Gretzky‘s wife—authorities usually have their ducks in a row. They usually know what they‘re talking about. We‘re talking about wiretap evidence. We‘re talking about months and months of investigations here. It‘s hard to believe that they have just completely blown it, that Rick Tocchet and Janet Gretzky and none of these people are even involved in any kind of betting scandal at all. I don‘t think anybody‘s really buying that right now.
COSBY: Yes, I would hope authorities wouldn‘t be that stupid to go out on a such a limb and accuse these big names and not have anything on the background. You believe that they would probably do a very, very thorough investigation. What does this say, you know, in terms of the image of Wayne Gretzky? Here he is, he‘s heading to the Olympics. We just played the clip. And they‘re not talking about the Olympics, they‘re talking about the scandal.
COWLISHAW: Yes, and I still have trouble—you know, Wayne Gretzky has been great for hockey. He‘s been the face of hockey for a quarter of a century. He‘s led a wonderful existence. He‘s been great for the game. It‘s hard for me to sit there and watch him go, This doesn‘t involve me. It involves his wife. It involves one of his best friends, his assistant coach. These are people he spends hours a day with, and somehow, he either didn‘t know what they were doing, or—you know, I‘d hate to say it, but he‘s a liar and he did know what they were doing, or as the attorney said, they‘re completely innocent and the authorities have completely blown this case. I think the third one is the least likely, so it‘s probably got to be one of the first two.
COSBY: All right. Well, Tim, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
We‘re going to definitely have you back on as we follow this case.
And still ahead, everybody, our exclusive investigation, the illegal business of prostitution.
Still ahead, we‘ll take you to the dark street corners of San Francisco to expose what goes on when the sun goes down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Who are the customers? Who are the Johns?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is the American doctors, dentists, lawyers, corporate people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Inside the world of streetwalkers and America‘s most notorious pimps, risking arrest, rape, even death with every trick they turn. Secrets of sex on the streets, an eye-opening expose.
And surprising new details about what police say was Neil Entwistle‘s double life. The man arrested for killing his wife and baby was checking out escort services on line and a how-to guide to murder. That‘s all coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.
COSBY: And we want to warn you that this next segment is for mature audiences, our LIVE AND DIRECT into illegal prostitution. A few weeks ago, we took you behind the scenes at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch, a legal brothel outside of Carson City, Nevada. Nevada is a state where, in some areas, selling sex is legal at licensed brothels like the Bunny Ranch, which we visited.
Well, tonight, we show you an inside look at the other side of sex for sale in the U.S., the underground world of illegal prostitution. This is as dangerous and desperate as it gets. Yet despite its risks, by most estimates, prostitution is a multi-billion-dollar-a-year business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That‘s my—right here is one of my working girls on their way to come see us.
COSBY: It is estimated that there are more than one million women and girls working as prostitutes in the U.S. today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s like a candy store. You know, I want the red one, I want the blue one, I want the green one.
COSBY: You can go to practically any city in the country and the scene will be the same.
(on camera): Why do you do it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the money.
COSBY (voice-over): At corners and in doorways at red-light districts, suggestively dressed prostitutes advertise their wares.
(on camera): How do you feel about being sold for sex?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don‘t like doing it, but it‘s just something I have to do.
COSBY (voice-over): In most cities, the practice is illegal but definitely not invisible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My first night, I was only out there two hours and I made $600.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: $1,000, maybe $1,200.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: $1,600, $1,700 at the most.
COSBY: Like any business, it‘s driven by cash.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They pay, you know, (INAUDIBLE) $150, $200, $300, $400, $500, and it goes up.
COSBY (on camera): What, an hour?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For an hour. An hour. Or until they get off.
COSBY (voice-over): And the ones managing and protecting the ladies of the night, not to mention the money of prostitution, are the pimps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There‘s nothing like (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There‘s nothing like it.
COSBY: San Francisco has been a magnet for the sex industry for years, and that‘s where we met two of the Bay Area‘s most notorious and successful pimps, Dan (ph) Banks and Alvin (ph) Brown, better known on the streets of San Fran as Money Banks and Gangsta Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a conservative business player. I am a gorilla killer player.
COSBY: And their cars certainly reflect their images, too. Money Banks drives a new Mercedes. Gangsta Brown tools around in a pimped-out GMC Savannah tour van. He calls it his “ho buggy.”
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s what the girls ride in, a Savannah van.
COSBY: Pimps call themselves macs (ph) or players in the game, the game of selling sex. Gangsta Brown played it big-time for 31 years, Money Banks for 20. Both say they are now retired from the game.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-one years of evading the law. Their job was to catch me, my job was to get away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I‘m a teacher now. I mean, I‘m not doing it. (INAUDIBLE) because I have to because I‘m the only one left.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The guys that last in this business is the guys that‘s fair and the guys that‘s looking for a future. You‘re in this game to get in to invest and get out.
COSBY: Gangsta Brown and Money Banks have been friends since childhood. Gangsta learned the sex trade as a teenager from a legendary San Francisco pimp named Fillmore Slim (ph). Money Banks in turn learned the game from, who else, Gangsta Brown. And while you might not recognize their names, you may know the name of their most famous employee, Divine Brown, the West Hollywood street hooker who in 1995 was arrested along with actor Hugh Grant for getting caught in the act on Sunset Strip.
Money and Gangsta say they scored big-time with her sudden fame.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Divine Brown in one month gave me $1 million. So no player can top that.
COSBY: We begin our investigation into their world of prostitution across the Bay Bridge in Oakland, California. That‘s where Gangsta Brown cut his teeth in the business—ghetto pimping, he calls it—on this street known as “Ho‘s Row.”
GANGSTA BROWN, LONG-TIME SAN FRANCISCO PIMP: Let me tell you how it works. You set your female right here on International Boulevard. And somebody come by, they might like her, pull over, quote a price and have a small date for a small 15, 20 minutes.
COSBY: Gangsta also showed us the old neighborhood, where girls and danger lurk around dark corners and dark sidewalks.
BROWN: And these youngsters here is arresting (ph) somebody‘s money. The girl‘s trying to make money. You got one gentleman hollering over here, and all they do is just talk, interfering. Now, she walked away from him. She didn‘t give him no rhythm. So now they need to leave her alone so she can get what she come out here to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that‘s why I try tell all of them, you know, get your education. Get off the streets. It‘s dangerous. The laws is tough now. You know, I don‘t condone what they do. I did it because I had to. That‘s a young lady of leisure right there. That‘s a minor. She shouldn‘t be out here.
COSBY: While Gangsta did his pimping with street girls, Money Banks, with the help of three cell phones, opted for the on-call service.
MONEY BANKS, LONG-TIME SAN FRANCISCO PIMP: Hey, Brown, I‘m going to go down to the hotel quick because I got some moves to make. (INAUDIBLE) I need to get my money on, man.
COSBY: He introduced us to Sparkle, a call girl who says she‘s 21 and began hustling at the age of 13.
“SPARKLE”: Sometimes, you can get scared out of the game. Sometimes, you can just be hard in the game. But the money is right, so you know, I probably—I could do this for a long time.
COSBY: Even though Money Banks claims he‘s retired, on this night, he delivered Sparkle to an Oakland hotel to turn a trick. She was upstairs for 30 minutes.
BANKS: She‘s handling. She‘s working her—you know, she‘s working her little deal. You know, whatever she‘s going to get, she‘s going to get. But I‘m telling her right now, take everything—take anything you can get. (INAUDIBLE) hurry up, baby. Let‘s hurry up.
COSBY: Spark would eventually come out of the hotel with what she said was a few hundred dollars in her pocket.
The following night, Money Banks and Gangsta Brown took us to the San Francisco neighborhood where pimps made the big bucks, on Polk (ph) and O‘Farrell (ph) Streets, near the seedy Tenderloin district. It became obvious early on that Gangsta Brown was a local celebrity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) people got limousine. When I was about 13 or 13, I wanted to be like this man.
COSBY (on camera): Who are the customers? Who are the johns?
BROWN: It is the American doctor, dentist, lawyer, corporate people. We don‘t understand why they‘re so hard on us because we are providing happiness for a man. We‘re not killing him. We‘re not robbing him.
COSBY: Are some of your customers married?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of them.
COSBY: All of them?
BANKS: Yes, all of them. They love their wives, but they don‘t want to see them. They want some action. They want to go to a strip club to see some fine, tight, nice bodies with that ass coming up. Oh, my God!
BANKS: When they go home that night after being with that young lady
COSBY: What are some of the worst things you guys have seen?
BROWN: A lot of things happen when a woman really don‘t follow her man‘s program—getting in the car, not really letting somebody know what cars, jumping in and out of cars, not being cautious, driving off and we really not knowing where she‘s going because she don‘t tell us the license plate, where she‘s going to check in. She thinks she can make a run and come back, but sometimes they don‘t come back.
COSBY: What happens to them then?
BROWN: They come up dead, come up raped, come up with their arm and leg cut off.
COSBY: Do you feel responsible? Don‘t you feel bad about what‘s happening to these women?
BROWN: Yes. Mostly for me, I haven‘t had a lot of bad experiences because one thing I was fortunate, they listened and they took what I said and heed and paid attention and made it to come out better for me, where I never had them worries. You know, we would check in. When you get there, let me know what room, what kind of car. And so the average female that listens, the drug-free one, focus, then it come about way, way, way better, way better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Incredible to see. Well, life on the street has been good for the men, as you can see. But is it good for the women who are the ones doing the dirty work? Up next, the prostitutes‘ story. How do they fall into life on the streets, risking rape and even murder?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) seen a lot of people get killed, a lot of people really get hurt. I‘ve been hurt a couple of times. I‘ve been stomped out.
COSBY: Why do you do it? Why do you still prostitute?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To tell you the truth, for the money. And the second reason, I really don‘t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: From MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.
COSBY: And welcome back to LIVE AND DIRECT, where we are looking into the world of pimps and prostitutes. Again, we want to warn you this is for mature audiences. Here‘s more of my interview with the two San Francisco players known as Gangsta Brown and Money Banks and the girls who risk danger, even their lives, to sell their bodies for money. You‘re going to be surprised to see how the young women ended up there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I went to school right here on this sidewalk. I
have my master‘s degree on Sidewalk University. Right here!~
COSBY (on camera): People are going to say you‘re promoting horrible behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don‘t. I say I make an old man smile for a small fee.
COSBY: How many women have you had at one time working in your stable?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For me, only two. I can only (INAUDIBLE) for two at one time. (INAUDIBLE) get them one at a time all the time, but only two.
COSBY: And how many have you had at one time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twelve.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I catch (ph) slow and I hold (ph) long.
COSBY: How tough is it on the street for some women?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very tough. Very hard. Very rough. I mean, she have to really be up on top of her game. I mean, when she come out here, she has to understand she could die, she can go to jail, something bad can happen to her.
COSBY: Do you feel you‘re promoting bad behavior?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don‘t think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. This been here since the biblical days. This has been here so long...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is the oldest profession.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) longer than that.
COSBY: Yes, but you don‘t know who these girls end up with.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that‘s why we got the phone. That‘s why they call us. You know, today, the cell phones now, it‘s real easy to contact them now. So there‘s no excuse for her getting away.
COSBY (voice-over): Eventually, we got a chance to meet some ladies of leisure. With a phone call to a local pimp, the ball was set in motion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need you to come over to San Francisco on Polk and O‘Farrell and bring the team.
COSBY: “Bottoms,” who says she‘s 20, told us she has been working these streets for three years.
(on camera): Why did you start?
“BOTTOMS”, SAN FRANCISCO PROSTITUTE: Well, my baby‘s father, he was a pimp. And then I seen all his girls, you know, getting all the money. And then after I had my baby, I needed extra money, couldn‘t get a job.
COSBY: Where are your parents?
“BOTTOMS”: My father‘s in jail right now. And my mother, she‘s raising seven other of my siblings.
COSBY: How tough is it, life on the streets? What‘s happened to you?
“BOTTOMS”: I‘ve been robbed by, like, 12 dudes at one time. I‘ve been raped before a couple of times. And well, I (INAUDIBLE) seen a lot of people get killed, a lot of people really get hurt. I‘ve been hurt a couple of times. I‘ve been stomped out with—by this guy in, like, Timberlands (ph) and steel—you know what steel-toed boots are, right? OK. He stomped me out with those when I was, like, three-and-a-half months pregnant one time. I lost my first baby.
COSBY: Why do you do it? Why do you still prostitute?
“BOTTOMS”: To tell you the truth, for the money. And the second reason, I really don‘t know. I just do it because I‘m already—I‘m too deep in it.
COSBY: What‘s the most you‘ve made in one night?
“BOTTOMS”: About a g.
COSBY: A thousand?
“BOTTOMS”: Just $1,000.
COSBY: Are you worried that maybe some days you‘re not going to come back alive?
“BOTTOMS”: Every day. Every day.
COSBY: Do you think because you didn‘t have a good family around to support you, you fell prey to this?
“BOTTOMS”: I did. I didn‘t know what was going to take over my life. Something was going to happen, though. I was either going to become a gang member, or a prostitute, or stripper, or a drug dealer, or taking drugs. I was going to do something. I was going to end up somewhere on some back road.
COSBY (voice-over): Brazil told me she is 18 and that she‘s been selling herself for three months.
(on-screen): Why did you get started?
“BRAZIL,” SAN FRANCISCO PROSTITUTE: Well, my dad died. And when my dad died, my mom, like, went crazy. So she kind of, like, kicked me out. There was nowhere else for me to go, so I (INAUDIBLE) to the streets.
COSBY: What‘s the worst thing that‘s happened to you in the three months?
“BRAZIL”: Being kidnapped. There was this guy, and he got out of his car. And he just, like, grabbed my hair and was dragging me for, like, two minutes and, like, put me in the car. They all raped me, and then they dropped me back off the next day.
COSBY: They all raped you?
COSBY: How many men raped you?
“BRAZIL”: Four. Four guys.
COSBY: And what did you do?
“BRAZIL”: There was nothing I could do. I mean, there‘s nothing you can do.
COSBY: How scary was that for you?
“BRAZIL”: I was scared. I thought they were going to kill me, but they didn‘t.
COSBY: It must have been frightening?
“BRAZIL”: Yes, it was. It was scary.
COSBY: Why don‘t you leave?
“BRAZIL”: I don‘t have anywhere (INAUDIBLE) where would I go? Where would I go? I mean, Everyone is, like, “Why won‘t you leave?” I mean, they‘re not going to pay my bills. They‘re not going to take me in.
COSBY: How much do the johns pay for your services?
“BRAZIL”: Well, I charge $100 for sex on the streets and $50 for (bleep) on the streets.
COSBY: You‘ve been doing this for three months now. How much longer do you plan to do it?
“BRAZIL”: Not that long. I‘m just trying to get enough just to (INAUDIBLE) because I do want to go to college. I want to go to U.C. Berkeley.
COSBY: Do you ever go home at night and say, “Why am I doing this to myself?”
“BRAZIL”: Every day. Every day. Every day.
COSBY: Looks like it hits you pretty hard?
“BRAZIL”: It does, but you can‘t show it. I can‘t show it.
COSBY (voice-over): The rookie of the group is Paradise. She says she is 18 and has been on the job only one week. She started turning tricks for unusual reasons.
“PARADISE,” SAN FRANCISCO PROSTITUTE: I caught my boyfriend with another girl.
COSBY (on-screen): You got your boyfriend with another girl, and you decided to become a prostitute? That‘s pretty severe.
“PARADISE”: Yes, it is, pretty much.
COSBY: You have parents?
“PARADISE”: Yes, I do, both of them.
COSBY: And you have a good relationship, at least?
“PARADISE”: With my mom I do, but not with my dad.
COSBY: But you come from a fairly loving family?
“PARADISE”: Fairly, yes.
COSBY: Good money?
COSBY: You‘re not homeless?
“PARADISE”: No. I go to college.
COSBY: You go to college? What are you studying?
“PARADISE”: R.N., minor in x-ray technician.
COSBY: So why are you doing this?
“PARADISE”: For the money.
COSBY: How good is the money?
“PARADISE”: Actually my first night, I was only out there for two hours and I made $600.
COSBY: (INAUDIBLE) “I could be doing a lot of things with my life.”
“PARADISE”: Oh, yes.
COSBY: “Why am I doing this?”
“PARADISE”: Oh, I say that all the time. I do.
COSBY: In the week you‘ve been there, what have you heard has happened to some of your friends?
“PARADISE”: She has got—well, she went on a date with a trick, and he raped her and made her walk down a street with no clothes except her socks. And he didn‘t give her the money or anything. He beat her up.
COSBY: And you‘re going into this business now?
“PARADISE”: Yes, I am.
COSBY: Do your parents know what you do?
“PARADISE”: No, they don‘t.
COSBY: They have no idea?
COSBY: How would they react if they knew you were a prostitute?
“PARADISE”: My mom would be hurt, and my dad would pretty much kill me.
COSBY (voice-over): Despite the possible repercussions, Paradise still agreed to speak with us on camera.
According to Gangsta Brown and Money Banks, most girls turn eight or nine tricks a night, often bringing in up to $2,000. But most of that money goes to the pimps. And what did Gangsta Brown buy with all the money he made?
BANKS: Two Rolls-Royces, apartment businesses, houses, everything like everybody else.
COSBY (on-screen): What do you say to people who say, “What you‘re doing is degrading society; you‘re perpetrating illegal activity; you‘re taking advantage of these women”?
BROWN: No, no. You can‘t say we‘re taking advantage of the women.
Because, first of all, the women is coming to us. They have nowhere to go.
And, first of all, we‘re helping them. We‘re helping them. We‘re actually
we‘re like their dads! We‘re helping.
COSBY: But if you want to help these women, get them a college education, get them a real job, not selling their bodies.
BROWN: Well, that‘s their choice. That‘s their choice. I have nothing to do with that. That‘s their choice. I mean, they can leave. They can do what they want to do. They can leave any time.
COSBY: But people say these women could be doing something else instead of selling their souls, selling their bodies.
BROWN: If they can be doing something else, believe me, they would have done it.
COSBY (voice-over): After pimping for so many decades, nothing seems to faze Gangsta or Money.
(on-screen): What do you say to people, though, that are disgusted at what you‘re doing, what you‘re pushing?
BROWN: Well, I‘ll apologize and say I‘m sorry that I couldn‘t have been a role model you might have wanted me to be. But where I come from, there‘s killers and drug dealers. We didn‘t see no lawyers. We didn‘t see no dentists. We didn‘t see no doctors. We saw hustlers.
COSBY: And you‘re one of them?
BANKS: I‘m one of them, one of the best of them.
COSBY: And still ahead, we‘re going to talk live to three people who have been on the streets selling their bodies. One of them was a family man at the very same time. A very revealing look into this hidden world when we come back.
And later, LIVE & DIRECT has obtained disturbing new details about a man accused of killing his wife and baby. Wait until you see the things police say he was viewing on the Internet just days before the murders. That‘s next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
“BOTTOMS”: I‘ve been raped before a couple of times. And, wow, I‘ve seen a lot of people get killed, a lot of people really get hurt. I‘ve been hurt a couple of times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, despite the tremendous dangers and many risks, many of the pimps and hookers that we spoke to firsthand in San Francisco say they felt compelled to keep working. But now a group of people who left the business are coming together to help stop illegal prostitution.
Joining us now is Sophie, who worked on the street five years ago at the age of just 15. We‘re also using an alias to protect her identity.
And we‘re also joined by former prostitute Norma Hotaling who found a great group called the SAGE Project to help these women change their lives.
And we also have with us David Sterry. He‘s a former John, someone who solicited hookers. He now counsels men who are doing the same thing in hopes of getting them to stop.
Sophie, let me start with you. How did you get started at the age of 15?
“SOPHIE,” FORMER STREET PROSTITUTE: Well, I was a victim of guerrilla pimping. I was violently forced into child prostitution. Basically, I was raped. And...
COSBY: You know, I must say, how trapped did you feel? Here you are, so young, and this happens to you.
“SOPHIE”: Well, actually what—well, hold on one second. Could you repeat the question one more time?
COSBY: Yes. How trapped did you feel, Sophie? Here you were so young and you said that you were forced into it?
“SOPHIE”: Yes, well, actually, I was forced by gunpoint. And I was forced by gunpoint into it. So, I mean, I was pretty scared. And I often had other girls in the industry who would be watching me to make sure that I wouldn‘t go anywhere. And I did make a few attempts to escape and ended up falling in the hands of other pimps.
COSBY: You know, what was the reaction to the customers? Because you were 15. Did you tell them you were 15? And what did they say?
“SOPHIE”: Yes, I always said that I was 15 years old. And I was told by the pimp that I would make the most money out of everyone because I was young and I looked young and that that‘s what the guys would like, that they would see that I was young and fresh and I looked clean.
COSBY: Let me bring in David, because, David, you know, you actually were one of the Johns. You were somebody who actually bought prostitutes. How young were they? And how many prostitutes did you visit?
DAVID STERRY, FORMER “JOHN”: Well, my story, I guess, I started—I am a former prostitute myself, as well. And I was a victim of sexual abuse myself.
And once I got out of the business, when I was probably about 20 years old, I started visiting prostitutes. I felt drawn to that world by a force that I felt like I couldn‘t even control.
So, I‘d say, for 15 years, 20 years maybe I visited prostitutes. And, God, maybe I visited, I don‘t know—I probably had sex with hundreds—I mean, I didn‘t keep track—but hundreds of prostitutes. And I was married at the time. And I...
COSBY: You were married at the time?
STERRY: I was, yes, for a chunk of that time, absolutely, yes.
COSBY: Did your wife have any idea or your family have any idea?
STERRY: Well, I would tell my wife sometimes about it, but oftentimes not. And I was—I felt bad that I was being untrue to her. I was not a very mentally healthy person at that time. I was very damaged and scarred myself.
COSBY: You know, let me bring in, if I could, Norma, because, Norma, you‘re working with folks like David and others. You have a John school, where you‘re trying to change the mentality.
I want to play also—this is a short clip. This is from the interview that we did with Gangsta Brown and Money Banks. They actually said that they‘re helping the girls. Let me just play this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Do you feel responsible? Don‘t you feel bad about what‘s happening to these women?
BANKS: Yes, mostly for me, I haven‘t had a lot of bad experiences, because one thing I was fortunate, they listen. The average female that listens, drug-free ones, focused, they‘re going to come out way, way, way better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Norma, what are really the rules on the street from what you‘ve seen?
NORMA HOTALING, FORMER PROSTITUTE: The rules are that they change all the time and you never know what they are. These guys come off as the knight in shining armor, and they very soon become the worst nightmare of these women. They prey on every vulnerability that they can find. They‘re master manipulators. They‘re cunning.
COSBY: Yes, Norma, why do they have this control? It is interesting, because even they say, look, we beat them, we hit them. Why do the women fall so under their spell? What is it?
HOTALING: It‘s a brainwashing. It‘s a very, very complex psychological, traumatic bonding that happens. I‘ve had women after 30 years and they‘re destitute. They have nothing. They say, “These guys even took my blender. But he still must love me, because he has my picture on his dresser.”
They think that—these guys make them think that they‘re the only ones left in their lives. I have a plate in the side of my head. I have wires and screws because of these type of guys.
If you don‘t follow their rules, they come up and they will break your bones. They will put you in the hospital. They pretend that they‘re protecting you, but who they‘re really protecting you against is them.
COSBY: Yes, it is so scary to hear some of these stories.
I want to bring in David, too. David, you know, you go to this John school. How tough is it, real quickly, to break this cycle, especially these poor women that are in such desperate situations?
STERRY: Oh, it‘s really terrible. I also had the opportunity of doing writing workshops with girls who really were sexual slaves. And one of them told me a story about a pimp who—one of the girls was taking money and not giving it to him, so he brought all of his girls together. He put the one who was stealing—he said stealing money—tied her to a chair, doused her with gasoline, and set her on fire. And all the other girls sat around and had to watch their friend burn to death.
So the way these pimps are portrayed, even in this show, is, if I was a 15-year-old, I‘d be like, “Oh, that‘s kind of cool.” Well, it‘s not cool. These people are doing horrible things.
COSBY: And that‘s the reality, unfortunately, for those folks on the street. Thank you, all of you, very much. We‘d love to have you back on. Obviously, a very revealing and a very heartbreaking look. Thank you.
And there‘s a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight. Let‘s check in, if we could, with Joe Scarborough now with a preview of what Joe has on tap—Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: Hey, thanks so much, Rita. Vice president shoots a man. That‘s right. Of course, we‘ve been hearing about it all day. Quailgate is rocking Washington, D.C.
There‘s a lot of people asking: How could the vice president of the United States shoot a man in the face and then bury the news from all of us for more than 24 hours? A lot of questions in the White House. A lot of indignant White House reporters. We‘re going to be talking about that and much more tonight in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”
Rita, back to you.
COSBY: Thanks a lot, Joe. We‘ll be watching just a few minutes from now. Thank you.
And still ahead, everybody, it could be damning new evidence in the case of a man accused of murdering his wife and child before heading overseas. LIVE & DIRECT has just obtained some new documents about what police say they found regarding his connection to escort services. We‘re going to tell you about that next.
COSBY: Tonight, police are releasing disturbing new details about the British man accused of killing his wife and daughter inside their Massachusetts home. In court documents LIVE & DIRECT has just obtained, police say Neil Entwistle searched Web sites on how to kill people and the sites of several escort services in the days that his wife went missing.
Entwistle is expected to be arraigned in a Massachusetts courtroom sometime this week.
And joining us now is the U.S. editor for the British paper, “The Sun,” Emily Smith. Also, former Middlesex County, Massachusetts, prosecutor Wendy Murphy, and criminal defense attorney Joe Tacopina.
Emily, let me start with you. Do you have any idea when he‘s coming back and when the arraignment could be?
EMILY SMITH, U.S. EDITOR, “THE SUN”: Well, Martha Coakley‘s office have confirmed that the U.S. marshals are on their way now to pick up Neil. He was today still in custody in London, but we believe he‘s going to be back in time for a first hearing either on Wednesday or Thursday.
COSBY: You know, Wendy, let me play—just show some of the details that have come out in these documents, that just came out in the last few hours, which we got. Pretty stunning about his contacts with these escort services.
Just two days before his wife and baby were killed, in the documents, it names all of these addresses of escort services that he was going after. One is called Eye Candy Entertainment. The other, Exotic Express, Sweet Temptations, and Blonde Beauties escort services, which include a phone number and Yahoo! map to its location.
Wendy, come on, how bad does this look?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, man. You know, this was such explosive stuff today, Rita, that came out, because not only, as you said, this was a day or two before he apparently executes his wife and baby, but a couple days before that is when he‘s looking at murder and suicide Web sites.
Look, this case is so rock-solid now against this guy, with the DNA evidence. And now he just looks like a seedy bum on top of it all. I don‘t think there‘s any sympathy left for this guy. Everybody said he‘s depressed, he‘s, you know, got mental problems. Actually, he just looks like a selfish, sex-addict pig.
COSBY: And, Joe, let me show—this is the one about the murder Web sites that Wendy was talking about, also, in the documents. It says, “On January 16th and 17th, Neil Entwistle viewed an electronic document which described such things as how to kill people by various methods.” He typed in the words “suicide,” “euthanasia,” other things.
Does that help his case, in the sense of the suicide, but certainly hurt his case that he‘s looking at motives to kill people, ways to do it?
JOE TACOPINA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I mean, in all honesty, Rita, it is an evidence of pre-meditation for sure. You know, again, we‘re talking the court of public opinion right now. This is not the court of law.
And I am on the side of this guy looks as guilty as anybody I‘ve ever seen right now. Let‘s wait to see how this case shapes up inside a court of law, where the rules of evidence apply. I mean, they have to be able to prove that that was him on the computer, and I‘m sure circumstantially they‘ll have some evidence.
But, you know, I‘ve seen prosecutor stand up there and talk about slam-dunk cases and rock-solid cases before, and get acquittals, like the Robert Blake prosecutor most recently. I remember Marsha Clark saying something like that.
I mean, so you never know what‘s going to happen in the court of law. Do I think this guy looks horribly guilty and actually makes Scott Peterson look like not such a bad guy for a minute, you know? I mean, yes.
COSBY: Who would have thought that, huh, Joe?
TACOPINA: That‘s the way it looks, in all honesty, Rita, right now.
COSBY: All right, guys. Stay with us, if you could, everybody. We‘re going to have a lot more about Neil Entwistle‘s double-life right after we come back.
COSBY: And we‘re back now with our panel in the Neil Entwistle case.
Let me bring in Wendy Murphy.
Wendy, today some interesting things came out about the parking ticket
and I thought this was really surprising—at Logan Airport. Stamped Thursday, January 19th, 10:49 p.m. He‘s being accused of killing his wife and child the next morning.
How can that play into things?
MURPHY: Yes, that‘s a really good point, Rita. And not a lot of people are talking about this. It‘s pretty clear his car was seen and was, in fact, at Logan Airport the night before the murders.
So lots of folks are saying, “Look, perhaps they had some kind of confrontation, Rachel and Neil, and he freaked out and decided to leave the country. He got to Logan, he thought about doing it, but for some reason he made a decision to kill her instead.”
So people are wondering, did he have a reason to want to shut her up, to punish her in some fashion?
And I‘ll tell you what‘s raising other new questions. Not only did new information come out about Baby Lillian, I mean, we know she was shot in the belly and the bullet went through her belly, out her back, and into Rachel‘s left breast. Today we found out Baby Lillian had a contusion on her face, on her eye, and on her nose, and on her mouth.
COSBY: It is so heartbreaking. Let me bring in Joe real quick—
MURPHY: Very weird stuff.
COSBY: It is really weird stuff.
In fact, Joe, as a defense attorney, I think Wendy hit it right on the head. This really troubled me. And I‘ll show you the quote. “There appeared to be indications of trauma to the infant‘s face, including a contusion to the left eye, nose and mouth area, and blood and mucous in the infant‘s nostrils.”
I mean, was she hit, the baby, or something? I mean, it brings up a whole other thing. That‘s, you know, separate than even the shooting.
TACOPINA: And we‘re now—we‘re really at this point just guessing. I mean, clearly there‘s nothing worse than what happened to that baby when it was shot in the stomach. But, you know, maybe the mother dropped the baby when she was shot, if she was shot first. I mean, there‘s a whole bunch of scenarios that could come into play here.
But, you know, if he‘s guilty, he killed his baby. So whatever else he did to that baby, you know, it just doesn‘t make it any worse. It‘s all despicable, if true. And I want to say, “If true,” because then you say things, like, there‘s a ticket, Rita, that says his car is at the airport the night before they‘re murdered.
You know, it‘s things like that. This is going to be a case that‘s going to be primarily based on circumstantial evidence and DNA evidence. And the defense attorney‘s job in this case is going to be basically to challenge the credibility of the government‘s theory.
And you know what? It‘s little things like that, if they start piling up, you never know what‘s going to happen at the end of the day with 12 jurors sitting there.
COSBY: Absolutely. Well, guys, thank you very much. And, Emily, we‘ll have you back on soon.
Wendy and Joe, great to have your insight, as well.
COSBY: And that does it for us on LIVE & DIRECT. I‘m Rita Cosby. Of course, we‘re going to be following this case throughout. Again, the word is he‘s coming back and the arraignment could be either Wednesday or Thursday of this week.
That does it for me. “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with Joe starts right now
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