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'The Situation with Tucker Carlson' for Feb. 21

Read the transcript to the Tuesday show

Guests: Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Mike Geanoulis, Howard Simon, Jane Tollini

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  Tucker, I‘m not going to ask you what THE SITUATION is tonight.  I‘m going to ask you where the heck is THE SITUATION tonight?

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  THE SITUATION, Joe, is at lovely Rhode Island College here in Providence, Rhode Island, on our New England college tour.  One college at a time.

San Francisco, by the way, lives down to its own stereotype faithfully every year.  It‘s unbelievable. 

Thank you, Joe. 

And thanks to you at home for tuning in to a special edition of the SITUATION.  We appreciate it very much.

Let‘s get right to the top news tonight.  It is, of course, the continuing battle between President Bush and members of Congress over an Arab‘s control over six major American ports. 

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist echoed the concerns of many prominent lawmakers when he said he‘d introduce a bill to stop acquisition of the ports by Dubai Ports World.  That‘s a state-owned business in the United Arab Emirates.

President Bush, who has not vetoed a bill in more than five years as president, told reporters today he would block any congressional effort to stop the proposed deal.  He also strongly defended his administration‘s decision.  Listen.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  The transaction should go forward, in my judgment.  If there was any chance that this transaction would jeopardize the security of the United States, it would not go forward. 


CARLSON:  For more of what‘s becoming a major headache for the White House tonight, we bring in MSNBC political correspondent David Shuster.  He joins us live from Washington. 

David, thanks for joining us. 

DAVID SHUSTER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  Good to be with you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  David, this doesn‘t make sense to me politically at all, the president staking this pretty radical stand on a very unpopular—unpopular initiative, turning the ports over to Dubai.  What‘s behind this?  What‘s going on?

SHUSTER:  Well, one Republican, Tucker, says that this is a political meltdown.  That Republicans suggested this is what happens when a president‘s approval rating in below 40 percent, you‘re in an election year, and the president doesn‘t think something like this through. 

I mean, for five years the administration has been talking about sleeper cells and terror threats and the need to conduct wireless (ph) surveillance.  And for the Bush administration all of a sudden now, even according to Republicans, to come around and ask the American public to be an expert on the ports and how they are a run, in order to be assured that turning this over to the UAE is somehow safe, that is just not going to fly.  And I don‘t see any Republicans, Democrats on Capitol Hill tonight who are with the president on this issue, even if he is threatening a veto. 

CARLSON:  Well, that just doesn‘t make sense at all.  I mean, this is very a politically savvy White House.  It thinks through the implications of what it says.  Why would the president threaten a veto when he has, as you just said, almost no supporters?

SHUSTER:  Well, that‘s not clear at all.  And in fact, some Republicans again are suggesting that perhaps whoever‘s advising the president politically has been stuffed into a closet on this. 

I mean, when you look at the way the story broke, this story came out last week.  It was last week when a Dubai newspaper broke the story that the United Arab Emirates had gotten this deal. 

Then there was a news conference that was attended by Bloomberg News and a couple of other organizations, and Chuck Schumer‘s trying to get attention.  All of a sudden, it blows up over the weekend. 

And only just today does the president seem to be engaged.  And again, the time for the Bush administration to try to sell this—sell this issue to members of Congress isn‘t tomorrow, as the administration is now planning.  But they should have had people up on Capitol Hill a couple of weeks ago to say, “This is why we think we want to do this and here are the logical reasons why we should do this.” 

But to all of a sudden now, on the defensive, to be trying to explain this, I mean, Republicans and Democrats are in a feeding frenzy over this, and there‘s almost no way, according to Republicans, that this is going to pass. 

CARLSON:  That is just—we‘re going to talk to a member of Congress in a minute, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen from South Florida, but tell me, in your conversations today on the Hill, were Republicans confused by the president‘s sort of line in the sand today that he drew?

SHUSTER:  Well, here‘s a perfect example, Tucker, and that is there are these 12 members, 12 different government agencies, that are on the committee that are supposed to review matters like this.  It‘s—it‘s an issue that was chaired by John Snow, the treasury secretary. 

Well, one of the people who‘s supposed to be weighing in on this, the Defense Department, Secretary Donald Rumsfeld or one of his underlings.  But he said at his news conference today he had never heard about this until this past week.  In other words, after the decision had been made.  So then when the—this committee and the Bush administration turns around and says, “Oh, trust us.  We‘ve gone through.  We‘ve vetted it,” nobody believes it. 

And then furthermore, you‘ve got the homeland security secretary, Michael Chertoff, out there on the Sunday shows, saying, “Look, there are stipulations, there are steps that this company is going to take to assure security.”

And he‘s asked, “Well, what are those steps?”

And he says, “Well, I can‘t tell you, because the information is classified.”

Again, that is not an explanation that is flying with members of Congress in either party tonight. 

CARLSON:  No.  It‘s ridiculous.  And Republicans have a really tough election this year. 

David Shuster, thanks a lot for bringing us up to date. 

SHUSTER:  You‘re welcome, Tucker.  Take care.

CARLSON:  Bill Frist is not the only one worried about the security of ports.  Many GOP members are calling for a delay of the deal that would allow the Dubai-based company to have control over seaports in New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New Orleans and Miami.

Florida Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen is one of those Republicans asking the president to slow the process down.  She joins me live tonight from Miami. 

Congresswoman, thanks a lot for coming on. 

REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN ®, FLORIDA:  Hey, Tucker.  Thanks.  First time on your show, this new format.  Thank you so much. 

CARLSON:  Well, we‘re glad to have you.  So what—I mean, what is going on?  This politically does not make sense, why the president would take this stand, threaten to veto, something he hasn‘t done, much to my disappointment and I think many other conservatives.

ROS-LEHTINEN:  This is true.

CARLSON:  Why a veto over this?  I don‘t get it at all.

ROS-LEHTINEN:  I‘m astounded.  I‘m mystified.  I‘m flabbergasted.  I‘m amazed.  Incredulous.  I don‘t know how many words I can use. 

To use this issue to take a stand and throw the gauntlet down and say, you know, “I‘m the macho guy.  I dare you to pass legislation, because if you do I‘m going to veto it,” my golly, I hardly run into any of my colleagues, Republican or Democrat, who are in favor of this deal. 

And the most mystifying thing of all is the secret committee, CFIUS.  Even if we‘re not able to stop this deal, Tucker, from going through, because after all, March 2 is the date when they—when they finalize the deal. 

If we‘re not able to squash this, at the very least we are going to have significant reform of this secret process called CFIUS, this Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, because these agencies meet.  We don‘t see the deliberations.  And they decide whether deals are going to go through or not. 

Couldn‘t we have at least one congressional oversight hearing?  One Senate testimony? 

CARLSON:  Well, of course.

ROS-LEHTINEN:  Is it asking too much to have a little transparency? 

It‘s unbelievable.  We‘re just flabbergasted.

CARLSON:  What‘s shocking to me is, I mean, you‘re an independent thinker.  You‘re also an ally of the Bush administration on a lot of different issues and I think a pretty effective one.  If they‘re alienating you on this issue, do they have—it makes me think they must have no support among Republicans in the Congress.  Do you know anybody who‘s for this deal?

ROS-LEHTINEN:  I‘m not sure.  At least the people I‘ve talked to are not.  And these are strong allies of the president.  You‘re talking about Denny Hastert.  He is no radical.  He is no moderate.  He‘s a great Republican leader for our House.  He‘s not for it.

Senator Frist, he‘s not for it.  Some may say, well, he‘s got political aspirations.  Clearly Denny Hastert does not.  And folks are flabbergasted about this. 

And in Miami, in our community, we‘re really worried.  Now, we know that this does not mean foreign ownership of the port.  It doesn‘t mean that they‘re hiring and firing.  It doesn‘t mean that they‘re controlling the customs inspections.  We understand that this is a foreign government that‘s going to be buy a part—a piece of the action of the port.  And that is, in and of itself, very scary to us in south Florida. 

We know that they‘re not going to ride roughshod over customs, so we‘re not exaggerating the problem.  What we‘re saying is it‘s quite different to have a British company, an independent company, do this, the management, the operation of the cargo facilities, and quite another to have a foreign government, which is what you have in Dubai World Port.  This is a state-run agency. 

CARLSON:  But not according to the president. 

ROS-LEHTINEN:  Yes, I know.  He doesn‘t make that distinction. 

CARLSON:  ... the issue—but also, I mean, even the broader question.  He said what‘s the difference between—it‘s almost suggesting bigotry on the part of the opponents of this deal, by saying as he did today.... 

ROS-LEHTINEN:  That‘s right.  He‘s suggesting racially profiling.

CARLSON:  Why is he for (ph) the British?

ROS-LEHTINEN:  He says let the British company defend why we shouldn‘t sell to a Middle Eastern company.  This is not a Middle Eastern company.  This is a state-run—Dubai is one of the United Arab Emirates.  Yes, it‘s a strong today.  What will happen tomorrow and where were they yesterday? 

As all of us know from hearing the news all day, two of the hijackers, some of the money from 9/11 went through these—banking system.  I was just in Dubai three weeks ago.  A lot of members of Congress go through Dubai as we leave Iraq and Afghanistan.  It‘s a great country.  It‘s a good ally today.

CARLSON:  It‘s a great place.

ROS-LEHTINEN:  But who knows where they will be tomorrow.  This is not

this is not a stable...

CARLSON:  But also, can we be honest for one...

ROS-LEHTINEN:   ... democracy, not a strong ally. 

CARLSON:  It‘s not a democracy.  And it is a great place.  I agree.  I love Dubai.


ROS-LEHTINEN:  And we would have the same reservations if it were Venezuelan, if it were the Russian government.  We‘re talking about a government.  We‘re not talking about a privately owned business.  If Venezuela wanted to come here.

CARLSON:  Even so, can we be real for a second?  Right, because Venezuela is controlled by a lunatic, of course, Hugo Chavez. 

However, there is a difference between Great Britain and the UAE. 

There just is.

ROS-LEHTINEN:  Absolutely.

CARLSON:  The population of Great Britain does not generally want to commit violence against Americans.  The population of the UAE, according to the most recent poll I saw by Zogby, a reputable poll, 70-something percent despise the United States.  There is a difference between the countries.  Are we not allowed to say that now?

ROS-LEHTINEN:  And we should be allowed to say it.  And I‘ve gotten the independent Congressional Research Service to do an analysis of Dubai just last week when this started to become known. 

And this is not a partisan organization.  They don‘t—it‘s got a part of the State Department or the anti-State Department.  And you should read their report about when it comes to their tie-ins to the Dr. A.Q. Khan nuclear armament of Pakistan.


ROS-LEHTINEN:  And their involvement in human trafficking.  This is—this a government that‘s an, but in the Middle East, an ally is sort of in quotes.  It‘s kind of squishy there. 

CARLSON:  I agree with that.  And I hope that we will get a chance to read that report.  Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen. 

ROS-LEHTINEN:  Thanks, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Thanks a lot for joining us there from Miami. 

Congresswoman, thank you very much.

ROS-LEHTINEN:  Hey, and by the way, my kid goes to Brown.  So if you‘re at the Rhode Island College there, you‘ve got to just cross the street and you‘ll go to Brown.  We‘re working on him.

CARLSON:  I may see him out for drinks after this.  Thanks.


CARLSON:  Still to come, a controversial British historian, the Holocaust and Al Jazeera.  We‘ll explain the chain of event that has many around the world furious tonight. 

Plus a true battle of the sexes.  Is discrimination against men causing them to suffer through higher rates of disease, self-destruction, even suicide?  Details of an alarming new study when THE SITUATION continues. 


CARLSON:  Still ahead, can President Bush stave off yet another crisis, this one the handing over of our ports to a Middle Eastern company? 

Plus, we‘ll tell you why the founder of Domino‘s Pizza plans to build a town that restricts the availability of contraception.  There‘s outrage over it.  Stay tuned.


BUSH:  I can understand why some in Congress have raised questions about whether or not our country will be less secure as a result of this transaction.  If there was any question as to whether or not this country would be less safe as a result of the transaction, it wouldn‘t go forward. 


CARLSON:  That was President Bush brushing aside concerns from Republicans and Democrats about the decision to let the United Arab Emirates take over shipping operations at six major American ports.  Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and House Speaker Dennis Hastert are among those questioning the president‘s decision. 

Joining me from New York to talk about the rift in the Republican Party, Air America radio host, Rachel Maddow. 

Rachel, welcome. 

RACHEL MADDOW, AIR AMERICA RADIO HOST:  Hi, Tucker.  Happy Rhode Island.  Hope you‘re having a good time. 

CARLSON:  I love—you know, I‘ve never had a bad time on Rhode Island, tonight included. 

I was almost on the verge of having a bad time, however, when I heard the president‘s comments today, suggesting that those who don‘t agree with him are in some way bigoted.  Saying well, how can you be for a British company being in charge of these ports, but against a company owned by the government of the United Arab Emirates?  Somehow, you must be a bigot.

MADDOW:  Right.

CARLSON:  To which I say, first of all, Republicans shouldn‘t—shouldn‘t accuse anyone of bigotry.  I think that‘s a tactic that Republicans ought to reject, because they hate it when Democrats do it.  And second, it‘s a stupid argument. 

MADDOW:  Well, how about also when he wanted to assure us that there‘s been complete review of this, there‘s been totally thorough review of this, but I can‘t tell you about that review, because it‘s secret.  And I can tell you it took less than 30 days.  This was really upsetting, as well.  I mean—go ahead.

CARLSON:  I‘m just interested.  As a liberal, you tell me, do you think it is fair—as a liberal, do you think it‘s fair to acknowledge that there is a difference between allowing a company based in Great Britain to run your ports and allowing a company based in the United Arab Emirates to run your ports?  Or are you just a bigot if you see a difference?

MADDOW:  I actually do think there‘s a difference.  And I think that it‘s time for liberals and conservatives and everybody to start talking about the fact that a lot of our so-called allies in the war on terror are allies who we‘ve paid to be our allies. 

I mean, when—when the guy who masterminded the bombing of the USS Cole tunnels out of a prison in Yemen, because somebody else from the ground outside the prison in Yemen was tunneling in to get him out, you‘ve got to start thinking about the fact that Yemen is the one of the most anti-American countries on earth. 

They undercut the fact that we call them an ally.  Yes, we‘re paying them.  We bought their president‘s—their president‘s approval in terms of the war on terror, but in a country that‘s fundamentally opposed to what we‘re doing, you have to be suspicious of those alliances.  I don‘t think that‘s bigoted; I think that‘s real politics. 

CARLSON:  There you go.  So officially, a liberal, an Air America Radio host says it‘s OK to acknowledge a difference that supposedly the conservative president of the United States says it‘s not. 

MADDOW:  Yes, but...

CARLSON:  Here‘s a topic that...

MADDOW:  Let me make one more point. 

CARLSON:  Yes, go ahead.

MADDOW:  And that is that Dubai is a red flag here.  The United Arab Emirates is a red flag here.  That‘s why everybody in the country is opposed to this thing.

But it‘s not Dubai‘s—Dubai‘s fault that we‘re only screening seven percent of cargo.  It‘s not Dubai‘s fault that we don‘t have radiation detectors in the ports. 

CARLSON:  Needless to say.

MADDOW:  Yes, I‘m worried about Dubai.  But I‘m also worried about Michael Chertoff and George W. Bush, who totally abandoned the ports since 9/11. 

CARLSON:  Well, also, I mean, look, the truth is that if you want to protect our cargo, you need to inspect that cargo where—at the port on which it‘s loaded on the ships. 

MADDOW:  And the port that is comes into. 

CARLSON:  Right, of course.

Here‘s a story that we‘ve debated long and hard about whether to do or not, but I think it‘s an important one.  And we‘re going to do it quickly.

David Irving, a well-known Holocaust denier, a creep, British citizen, was convicted in Austria recently and sentenced to three years in prison for denying the Holocaust.  That is a crime in Austria.


CARLSON:  I am opposed to David Irving.  I think the opinions he espouses are revolting.  I am not in any way defending David Irving.

Here‘s what drew my attention to the story, however.  Al Jazeera covered this trial.  Why?  Now why would Al Jazeera do that?  I‘ll tell you why.  Because Al Jazeera knows that its viewers see the irony in being lectured by the west in a free press and, you know, a culture that people get to say whatever they wants and they tolerate dissent without violence.  Right?

And then here you have a guy going to prison for its opinions. 

MADDOW:  Right.

CARLSON:  He didn‘t physically hurt anybody.  He just—he just espoused revolting opinions. 


CARLSON:  I think this kind of thing actually really does hurt us in the Middle East. 

MADDOW:  Well, it‘s interesting.  I agree with you here, Tucker. 

Shock, horror, I know.  David Irving, monster; David Irving, total cretin.  I‘ve actually seen him David Irving in person in Britain, and I was very uncomfortable.  I lived there for awhile.  It was an accident.

And you know, if you think that he‘s changed his mind about denying the Holocaust, consider the fact that he was holding his own book, “Hitler‘s War,” while he was being sentenced, which says that Hitler was a friend of the Jews, actually, and this whole Holocaust thing is something you should forget about. 

The guy is obviously a total monster in terms of his beliefs, but the way that you deal with that is by making him live and die in obscurity.  And by having an Austrian law that makes it a crime to espouse a belief, you‘ve just made him a martyr.  And you‘ve made him a very famous Holocaust denier. 

CARLSON:  That‘s exactly right.  The American way of dealing with people dealing with this—and you can here the gunfire behind me.  Actually, it‘s—it‘s the fire is going a little out of control behind me.

MADDOW:  That‘s exciting.

CARLSON:  Excuse me.  It‘s not a mafia shoot-out here in Providence.

The American way of dealing with people like David Irving is to ignore them, right, and to, you know, make them go off to wherever they are in the woods and, you know, have them—let them have their shows on shortwave radio and pay them no attention at all and treat them as the crackpots they are. 

Once you put them in prison, truly you lionize them.  No wonder—no wonder the Austrians fell for fascism.  I mean, I just think this is a completely foolish, counterproductive response. 

MADDOW:  When you have—when you have horrifying speech that causes, you know—causes harm rhetorically—that is a dangerous idea and all this stuff—there is this impulse to ban it.  There‘s an impulse to say, “We‘ve got to crack down on people saying these sort of things.”  But when you do that, you make people into thought criminals.  And when you make people into thought criminals, you make them into martyrs and you give them more power than they deserve. 

CARLSON:  And it‘s being used against the West in the Arab world, and that really is a shame.  And I hope the Austrians understand how counterproductive this is.

Rachel Maddow, joining us from New York.  Thanks a lot, Rachel. 

MADDOW:  Nice to agree with you for once, Tucker.  That was fun. 

CARLSON:  Thank you. 

Up next, if somebody shells out millions to build a town, does he have the right to bring in Catholic-minded businesses that limit access to contraception?  It‘s happening.  Some people don‘t like it.  We‘ll debate it, when THE SITUATION comes back. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

Have you noticed it‘s becoming less and less of a man‘s world?  A new report says men have more demanding jobs, pursue fewer degrees and have suicide rates four to 10 times higher than their female counterparts. 

Here to explain the findings by the New Hampshire Commission on the Status of Men is one of the commission‘s members, Mike Geanoulis.  He joins us live tonight from Manchester, New Hampshire. 

Mike, thanks for coming on. 


CARLSON:  So give us—give us the sad news, blunt and up front.  How bad off are men?

GEANOULIS:  Well, Tucker, we have a real crisis on our hands, both here in New Hampshire and, if our findings are any indication, this can be extended nationally, as well. 

We have a severe problem in fatherlessness.  The suicide rates are four to 10 times, as you mentioned.  Educationally, boys are a year and a half behind girls in reading and comprehension.  The scores are greatly reduced from what girls are attaining in education.  And the health problems for men are—and boys—are much more severe than they are for women. 

CARLSON:  But wait a second, you never, ever, ever—you never hear about men‘s health problems.  It‘s always women‘s health problems one hears about on television.  And I thought men had all the advantages.  I thought men—it‘s a man‘s world.  They‘re killing themselves at a much higher rate?  They‘re not getting college degrees?  What could possibly be the cause?

GEANOULIS:  You know, that‘s interesting.  I‘ve been on this commission for a couple of years now, and I can only speculate as to the causes.  We—it will take a little bit of detective work to get the causes up. 

But I have an idea it might be linked with social instability, family decay, courts that don‘t recognize the importance for fathers with their children and their families, and the general neglect by society for men. 

It‘s almost as if men don‘t matter or that it‘s OK to send them down in coal mines and, you know, hope that they get out of it alive.  But yes, it‘s a real sad situation. 

CARLSON:  But wait a second.  Here‘s my concern.  And I think it does sound like a concern, but I don‘t want to see men become yet another whiny interest group.  Virtually everybody whines about being oppressed and that, except men.  You‘re not allowed to whine if you‘re a man.  You‘re a man; shut up and deal with it.  And I‘m for that.  I‘m for shutting up and dealing with it.

I‘m concerned you‘re going to see men‘s groups and mennonism (ph), or

whatever the heck you‘re going to call it, and a men‘s movement.  And that

I don‘t know; that bothers me, as a man.  Shouldn‘t men just be quiet and deal with it?

GEANOULIS:  You know, we would be quiet, except for the negative impact it has on our children and on our families and on society and on women.  You know, it‘s not good for women, for men to have such a low status and to have such difficulty making their way through life and to maintain a relationship with their children, having two or three jobs. 

If you look at the book, “The Decline of Males,” written by Lionel Tiger, you will find some serious problems are accruing that need to be addressed.  We can‘t just set this thing aside as a bunch of whining men, complaining too much. 

CARLSON:  I mean, however, it is hard to imagine a male counterpart to Oprah.  The “Oprah” show, for all its genius, is a show about women being oppressed a lot of the time.  I mean, let‘s be honest: it‘s a show about how men are mean and how women are hurt by mean men. 

Can you imagine a show hosted by a man, complaining about how men have it rough?  I mean, that would—that‘s a disgusting idea to me.  Would you want to see such a show?

GEANOULIS:  We might not be ready for that yet. 

CARLSON:  I hope not. 

GEANOULIS:  I think that we have to—we have to reveal these facts as we get them.  And you know, people are starting to get sensitive to this notion about men dying 10 years before their time or failing educationally or not going on beyond high school, dropping out of high school, not pursuing post-graduate degrees and in general, contributing to the decline of society. 

CARLSON:  I didn‘t mean in any way to make light of it, I think it‘s an important topic, and that‘s why we‘re excited to have you on.  Mike Geanoulis, thanks a lot for joining us tonight. 

GEANOULIS:  Yes, I would ask you to look at those problems, too, through the eyes of children. 


GEANOULIS:  You know, growing up dysfunctional and rudderless and doing drug abuse, alcohol abuse, teen pregnancy, the whole litany of low wellness levels.  You know, these things need to be addressed, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  I absolutely agree with that. 

GEANOULIS:  These are serious, serious problems here. 

CARLSON:  Absolutely. 

GEANOULIS:  Especially the fatherless ones. 

CARLSON:  As long as there‘s not—as long as there‘s not too much emotion and sharing involved, I‘m completely, completely in favor. 

Mike Geanoulis, thanks a lot for joining us tonight.  Thanks.

GEANOULIS:  You‘re quite welcome.  Thanks for having me. 

CARLSON:  Still to come, small-town values at a big expense.  Find out how one multimillionaire plans to build a model town for Catholics, called, not surprisingly, Ave Maria. 

Plus, we go from a conservative corner of America to a liberal one.  Prostitutes in the state of Illinois want to be able to sue their pimps for emotional and physical distress.  Should Illinois oblige?  We‘ll debate it when THE SITUATION comes back. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

If you could build a town from scratch, what would it look like?  Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino‘s Pizza, wants a towering Roman Catholic Church at the center of his proposed new town.  He also prefers people who have the same religious beliefs as he does.  He wants them to move into his aptly named Ave Maria, Florida. 

There‘s one group standing in the way of Monaghan‘s lifelong dream, the American Civil Liberties Union, of course.  Howard Simon is the executive director of Florida‘s ACLU.  He joins us live tonight from Miami.

Howard Simon, thanks for coming on. 

HOWARD SIMON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FLORIDA ACLU:  Thanks for the invitation, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Now why is it your business what kind of town Tom Monaghan builds?  I mean, you may or may not be Catholic.  I‘m not Catholic, but I think Tom Monaghan should have the right to build any kind of town he wants that conforms to any kind of beliefs he has.  It‘s—I don‘t understand why it‘s your business?

SIMON:  I completely agree.  If he wants to build a town and encourage like minded people to come and live there, that‘s fine.  We get into problems where he tries to exercise governmental authority.  That‘s the issue. 

It‘s not—Tucker, you‘ve to make a distinction between just encouraging like minded people to come and live in the same place with a town organized on religious principles, in which the religious group is given governmental authority.  It‘s that latter that is the problem.  And I must say, just...

CARLSON:  If that bothers you, I suggest you take a trip to rural Utah, where it‘s the rule, rather than the exception.  But I don‘t understand where you get the idea he‘s trying to exercise governmental authority.  My understanding is you‘re upset because he wants to bring in a pharmacy that does not sell contraception.  Why do you care?

SIMON:  Well, that‘s he‘s saying now, after having gotten some legal advice.  About a year ago he made a speech saying that “I own all the commercial real estate.  You‘re not going to be able to buy a ‘playboy.‘  We‘re going to control the kind of cable TV that comes in.  You‘re going to be able to get contraception, the pills, condoms at your local pharmacy.  You will not be able to purchase any of those services in this town. 


CARLSON:  Howard, I hate to blow your mind, but that‘s called zoning, and it‘s everywhere.  Every town determines what cable system it has.  Every town.  Your town, my town.  The town decides what cable system you have. 

Moreover, the town decides whether you can sell pornography in the stores or not.  There are rules in every town about not.  Moreover, they have zoning about what kind of stores you can have.  It‘s everywhere.  You just don‘t like this, because this is a serious Catholic guy.  I mean, that‘s the truth, isn‘t it?

SIMON:  Tucker, before you jump to the quick and not very well informed conclusion that that is just anti-Catholicism, I want to tell you that it was about 10 years ago when the United States Supreme Court correctly ruled that a group of Hasidic Jews in upper New York state, in a town called Kiryas Joel, could not receive government funding because that town was organized around pervasively sectarian religious principles.  And when you‘re required to conform to religious principles, that town is not fitting for governmental authority. 

This is not Catholicism—this is not a story about Catholicism. 

CARLSON:  Incidentally, I...

SIMON:  It‘s a story about any religious group trying to exercise governmental power. 

CARLSON:  Well, wait a second.  First of all, I believe all those towns in upstate New York receive a ton of federal aid to this day.  So I‘m not exactly sure.

SIMON:  We‘re talking about—wait a minute.  There was this one town that went to the U.S. Supreme Court. 

CARLSON:  Hold on.  I‘m absolutely familiar with the case, but that‘s not what we‘re talking about.  We‘re talking about the proposed town in Florida.  And the man who is developing the town prefers a pharmacy that does not sell contraception.  Isn‘t that his right?  It‘s his hand, and if he wants a pharmacy that doesn‘t sell condoms or the pill, it‘s not your business.  It‘s not my business.  I don‘t have a problem with contraception, but he does.  Why can‘t he sell the land to the pharmacy he prefers?

SIMON:  Tucker, there are some constitutional principles that come into play here, that the U.S. Supreme Court has—has issued in the 1940s and the 1980s and the 1990s. 

CARLSON:  Do you have to have a store that sells contraception?  Come on.

SIMON:  Let me tell you something. And what the court has said was that, to the extent that you open up your private property to people from the outside.  He‘s not walling this around only for residents. 

To the extent that you open it up for the—to the outside world—there‘s going to be a school there.  There‘s going to be a post office there.  There‘s going to be shopping centers there, which other people use that. 

To the extent that you open it up to the outside world, the rights of private property ownership become circumscribed by the rights of the people who use the facilities.  Now, that‘s not me, Tucker, that‘s the...

CARLSON:  That‘s a very long way of saying...

SIMON:  That‘s the U.S. Supreme Court. 

CARLSON:  I still don‘t understand why you want to interfere in this guy‘s business.  If people want to buy the pill they can go to any Shop and Save in the world and get it.  Leave this guy and this town, leave them alone.  A little diversity in this country is not a bad thing.

You haven‘t convinced me, but I appreciate you coming on anyway. 

SIMON:  OK.  What we don‘t want...

CARLSON:  Howard Simon, thank you. 

SIMON:  Thank you. 

CARLSON:  Islands of weirdness.  They exist anyway. 

Stay tuned.  There is more ahead tonight on THE SITUATION.


CARLSON (voice-over):  Street justice.  American prostitutes demand their day in court.  Wait you hear who they want to sue. 

Then lions and tigers and bears, oh, my.  We‘re going to take you on an X-rated zoo tour, where the humps aren‘t just on the camels. 

JOHNNY DEPP, ACTOR:  Don‘t touch that squirrel‘s nuts.

CARLSON:  Plus, we span the globe to bring you the constant variety of sports, the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. 

And we‘ll show you why this octogenarian proves you‘re never to old to be a player. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I enjoy it anytime.

CARLSON:  It‘s all ahead on THE SITUATION. 



VANESSA MCDONALD, PRODUCER:  Coming up, do you think you‘re a tiger in the bedroom?  You‘re about to see a real tiger in the bedroom.  A kinky sex tour of the animal kingdom when Tucker comes back in 60 seconds.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

The great moral philosopher Ted Moran (ph) once said, “The more you know, the less you need.”  Joining me now, a man who needs virtually nothing, “The Outsider,” ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing host Max Kellerman—


MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO:  Tucker, I actually find the more I know, the more I want.  Is that...

CARLSON:  That‘s a good point.  I think Adam and Eve made a similar discovery, actually, knowledge is bad. 

Well, first—first up, should former prostitutes be able to sue their pimps?  Illinois state senators are considering a bill that would allow current and former prostitutes to sue their pimps for emotional, physical and psychological damages in civil court. 

They‘re not the only ones.  Florida, Minnesota and Hawaii now have similar laws on the books.  But Illinois would go further.  The bill there would not require plaintiffs to prove they were forced into prostitution, assuming that anyone engaged in Prostitution was coerced.  Which, by the way, Max, is not actually a fair assumption, based on some of the interviews we‘ve done on this very show. 

Have you seen the Woody Allen movie, “Deconstructing Harry?”  He asked a prostitute in that movie, “Why are you a prostitute?”

She said it beats waiting tables. 

And his response was, “Every prostitute I‘ve asked that question has given me the same answer.”

CARLSON:  That‘s right.  I mean, who knows what the true motivations are.  But it doesn‘t matter for the purposes of this debate and the question of whether or not they can sue their pimp.  It‘s irrelevant. 

They are doing something illegal.  Maybe it shouldn‘t be, maybe it shouldn‘t be, but this is illegal.  This is like suing your dealer for selling you oregano.  It‘s ridiculous, and it will clog the courts.  I‘m opposed. 

KELLERMAN:  OK.  Well, here‘s the argument for it.  Let me understand

I agree, they shouldn‘t be able to sue their pimps on the basis that they‘re claiming they should be able to.  But what about on this basis?

Let me just understand it—if I get this business relationship.  There‘s an implied contract here between pimp and prostitute.  Now, as I understand it, the prostitute provides sexual favors for customers who then pay money.  The pump is entitled to a percentage of that money, and in exchange the pimp provides protection.  Right?  I mean, that‘s the basic contract.

CARLSON:  Right.

KELLERMAN:  Well, if the pimp is not providing the protection, then the prostitute should have grounds. 

CARLSON:  She has ground to have another pimp take over the first pimp‘s business.  She has grounds to shoot her pimp.  She does not have grounds to use the justice system to get money back from her pimp, since what she is doing is illegal in the first place. 

KELLERMAN:  I have a place out in the Hamptons.  There are a lot of people—some people in the Hamptons, really disgusting, who hire Mexican migrant workers, who may be here illegally, and work them all summer and at the end of the summer don‘t pay them.  Now I know they‘re here illegally, but shouldn‘t they have some recourse?  Shouldn‘t they have some legal recourse to get back at these people?

CARLSON:  Yes.  I mean, that is...

KELLERMAN:  It‘s disgusting.  Right?  Well, it‘s kind of the same thing with a pimp. 

CARLSON:  Well, I think they should take a 50-pound bag of rock salt and pour it on the lawn. 

KELLERMAN:  I agree.  I agree. 

CARLSON:  I don‘t think it will (ph) -- yes. 

A dollar is not worth what it was, but this is ridiculous, our next story.  Connecticut‘s Foxwoods Resort Casino is offering a $3,000 martini.  That‘s three grand. 

Those of you who‘d like to try this at home, the Sapphire Martini is made with Blue Curacao, Bombay Sapphire Gin, a splash of dry Vermouth.  And it‘s coated with blue sugar on the rim.  But it does come with something extra: a pair of custom made blue sapphire and diamond earrings. 

OK, Max.  We often hear modern America compared to ancient Rome in its declining years.  This is evidence.  If you‘ve got three grand to drop on a cocktail, you‘ve got too much money.  You‘re not spending it right.  You should give it to the poor. 

KELLERMAN:  And the diamondel (ph) earrings or whatever.

How about this for an argument, though, Tucker?  Have you ever seen the movie “Popeye?”  I think it was Altman who did that.  And Robin Williams played Popeye.  It was early ‘80s.


KELLERMAN:  Very good musical; it‘s actually a very good flick.  And in it there‘s this fictional town, Sweethaven, and there‘s this oppressive taxing system.  Right?  This—everyone has to pay taxes on everything.

Well, the American Indians have sort of this kind of quasi-autonomous nation within a nation, right?  (INAUDIBLE) with Mohican Sun (ph), whatever.   This is a stupid tax.  This is a stupid tax that they‘re allowed to levy on their own people visiting.  If you sit down and pay $3,000 for a martini and some little diamond earrings, it‘s a stupid tax.  You know, that‘s all it is.

CARLSON:  So basically, you are helping—A, you‘re helping the Indian nation.


CARLSON:   You see, it‘s like Darwinism.  I mean, you deserve what you get?


CARLSON:  This weeds out the morons among us. 

KELLERMAN:  It is like a—it is like a $3,000 lottery ticket, with no upside, no payoff. 

CARLSON:  That is—you know what, Max, that is so good, I‘m rolling over, playing dead and conceding the debate to you. 

KELLERMAN:  I love scratching your belly, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Very good.  Max Kellerman.


CARLSON:  Thanks a lot, Max. 

Coming up on THE SITUATION, sex advice from the animal kingdom.  Can a rhinoceros really teach you how to be a hero in the bedroom?  You bet. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

Your parents may have taught you about the birds and the bees, but did anyone ever fill you in on the lions and the rhinos?  Didn‘t think so.  You can learn all about the sexual habits of animals, maybe pick up a few pointers in the process, on the San Francisco Zoo‘s sex tour.  The sold out tour is the hottest thing in the Bay Area. 

Jane Tollini is the creator and guide.  She calls hers the most tacky, tasteless, smutty, down in the gutter tour ever created, and she‘s not joking.  She joins us live now from San Francisco. 

Jane, thanks for coming on. 


CARLSON:  Fisherman‘s Wharf, Lombard Street.  I‘m thinking of places tourists go in San Francisco.  If they go with you to the zoo on the animal sex tour, what do they learn?

TOLLINI:  They learn things that—I tell them don‘t go home and try this at home.  That these stunts are done by professionals.  That you do not have a unit that has a daffodil on the end of it, a heat-seeking missile, that you do not come with the ability to swing by one finger while doing it.  Yes, you have to be a little careful. 

CARLSON:  Is that—and that‘s really true, the swinging by one finger?


CARLSON:  Does that actually happen?

TOLLINI:  There‘s lesser apes and orangutans that can have quite a swell swinging.  They‘re called the swingers. 

CARLSON:  That‘s incredible.  Now, when you take people on the tour, is there mating in progress?

TOLLINI:  Yes.  This year we actually saw tigers having their way with each other for quite some time.  Needless to say the train stopped there. 

But it‘s no guarantee.  I tell people, if you‘re coming on the tour to see animals do it, go home and do it yourselves.  We don‘t have the rhinos trained to “up, up.” 

CARLSON:  I guess what appeals to me about this is typically when you‘re at the zoo, say, with your kids and some of the animals behave like animals, essentially, you‘re embarrassed.  You turn away.  You pretend you didn‘t see.  On your tour, that‘s the whole point. 

TOLLINI:  Absolutely.  That accompanied by a lovely glass of champagne.

CARLSON:  Which animals have the most to teach us as human beings?

TOLLINI:  Oh, my lord, almost everybody.  I mean, the rhinos are the most violent.  They beat the hell out of each other before they get involved for an hour-long sexcapade.  Our chimpanzees...

CARLSON:  An hour long?  That‘s why they‘re endangered.

TOLLINI:  Over an hour.  Easily over an hour. 

CARLSON:  Boy, I mean, no offense to the rhinos, but how compelling can that be, if it takes an hour?

TOLLINI:  Well, she‘s kind of walking around, eating hey, drinking water, having a cigarette, while he‘s locked on her back.  So it‘s kind of up to him.  She‘s just moseying around.  But his thing is, like, large and daffodil shaped.  So once it‘s in, it‘s kind of like a bolt (ph).

CARLSON:  Let me ask you.  Speaking of—I‘m not even going go there, Jane. 


CARLSON:  Speaking of large, though, I want to ask the question on the mind of I think every viewer right now, and that is what about the elephants?

TOLLINI:  The elephant, it‘s like kind of having a trunk at the other end, except for this trunk can‘t pick up a dime.  It‘s pretty much a heat-seeking missile. 

CARLSON:  Can anyone get hurt?  I mean, do elephants ever hurt one other during this?

TOLLINI:  I would think that chances are the bull elephant would be in trouble from the matriarchal female who goes get the hell out of my herd, because it‘s a lady‘s herd. 

CARLSON:  When you were young, Jane, not to get too personal, but did you ever imagine you‘d grow up to lead sex tours at a zoo? 

TOLLINI:  Well...

CARLSON:  And what do your parents think?

TOLLINI:  My mother‘s so proud that I talk filthy about animals to complete strangers.  But I‘ve had 14, 16 years of all-girls Catholic school.  What else would I do, become a nun?

CARLSON:  That‘s—when you were young, did you go to the zoo?  Did you have an unhealthy interest in the mating habits of caged animals?

TOLLINI:  I did go to the zoo.  I‘m a native San Franciscan.  I‘ve been going there since 1947, but I don‘t know if it was an unhealthy.  I think it was curiosity.  It piqued my curiosity.

CARLSON:  I don‘t mean—I‘m sorry.  I don‘t mean to judge you.  Heard the judgment sneak in my voice.  You called me on it.  I‘m apologizing. 

Finally, the penguins.


CARLSON:  When they‘re not marching, what are they doing?

TOLLINI:  When they‘re not marching, they have an entire month of foreplay before they get down to serious love.  A month‘s worth.

CARLSON:  An entire month?  That sounds like hell. 

TOLLINI:  Oh, no.  It‘s called decorating and...

CARLSON:  That‘s a bit too much, Jane.  That‘s too much. 

TOLLINI:  Not if you‘re really into it. 


TOLLINI:  When you lay the eggs, you‘re still fine (ph).

CARLSON:  You know, I don‘t even need to encourage our visitors to go to your tour in San Francisco, because I know they‘re already signing onto your web site right now.  Jane Tollini, leading sex tours at the San Francisco Zoo, joining us tonight live.  Thanks, Jane. 

TOLLINI:  Bye, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Still ahead on THE SITUATION, you might be asking yourself why are those cows jumping over bicycles?  I‘d like to know the answer myself.  The answer to this and life‘s many other mysteries, live, of course, on “The Cutting Room Floor,” next. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time for “The Cutting Room Floor.”  Joining us now from THE SITUATION world headquarters, a man who spent a lot of time staring into the penguin cage, Willie Geist—Willie. 

WILLIE GEIST, PRODUCER:  Tucker, I have to start by tipping my cap to you.  Grace under fire tonight as shots were ringing out behind you all night.  I think it was your years as a war correspondent that got you through this. 

CARLSON:  It must be.  You know, Rhode Island, is a pretty state. 

Perilous here.

GEIST:  Snipers on all sides.  You did well, my friend.  Here you go. 

CARLSON:  Thanks, Willie.  I appreciate it.  Outstanding.  Thank you. 

If the Olympics are a little too mainstream for you, perhaps this showcase of athleticism in India will be more your speed.  The three-day competition features some of India‘s most bizarre athletes doing things I can‘t even really describe in words.  There‘s a guy riding the bike with a flaming tire around his neck.  Then you have the cow jumping over bicycles.  There‘s the always popular guy getting run over by a tractor event.  And of course, guy pulling tractor with his teeth.  Now, those are world-class athletes. 

GEIST:  Tucker, the Winter Olympics are great, and you should watch every moment on the NBC family of networks, including this one, but how can we really expect to compete with a competition where the guy who gets run over by a tractor the most wins?  I mean, I think we throw out the white flag.  We lose. 

CARLSON:  You know, and not for the first time, Willie, I point out, India, gaining on us. 

GEIST:  There they go again, yes. 

CARLSON:  The average age of people who play video games is 30 years old.  That‘s a fact.  Ella Marchand (ph) is doing her part to raise that average age even more.  She‘s 80 and she‘s obsessed with videogames.  She plays them in her home for two hours every day.  Ella also uses those fast fingers to teach embroidery to kids. 

GEIST:  And we all know how kids love embroidery, knitting, needlepoint.  Really anything with thread and yarn, Tucker.

Look at those hands.  But can I just say something?  She‘s rocking the Nintendo 64 playing Super Mario Brothers or Tetris or something.  Let‘s get her an Xbox, Vice City.  We need her to start shooting people.  Don‘t you think?

CARLSON:  Absolutely.

GEIST:  That‘s what I say.

CARLSON:  Otherwise, she‘s wasting her time. 

Now some incredible video captured by a police officer‘s dashboard camera yesterday.  A pickup truck hit ice in Longview, Texas, and rolled down an embankment.  The truck flipped over twice before landing upright.  Look at that. 

The car was totaled but the great news is the driver walked away with only minor injuries.  Whoa.

GEIST:  Tucker, the dash cam has been so great for TV.  Sobriety tests, high speed chases, roll-overs.  Gold mine, dashboard cameras.  Thank you, dashboard cam. 

CARLSON:  I think the dashboard cam is, in fact, sponsored by FOX. 

GEIST:  It‘s for us.

CARLSON:  You‘ve heard the expression you‘ll be late for your own funeral.  Here‘s a story about a guy who didn‘t make it to his own funeral at all.  As his family was at the cemetery, mourning his supposed death, a Serbian man called his grief stricken daughter‘s cell phone to say hi.  Imagine her surprise.  It turns out the man was alive and well at the hospital and wondered why no one had visited him recently.  The body in the coffin belonged to a different man. 

GEIST:  Tucker, I like this idea.  Fake your own death, show up at your own funeral, see who says what about you, who shows up.  You can take stock of where you are in life.  I like the idea.

CARLSON:  I like it, too. 

Willie Geist, back at H.Q. 

GEIST:  Come home.

CARLSON:  Thanks, Willie.

That‘s THE SITUATION tonight from Rhode Island, Rhode Island College here in Providence.  Thanks for watching.  Up next, “COUNTDOWN” with Keith.  See you tomorrow.



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