Guest: Carol D'Autio; Laura Berman; Susan Polk; Catherine Crier; Justin
Webb; Harold Dalenback; Joe Cardinale; Pat Brown; Howard Kaufman; Larry
Koblinsky; Susan Polk
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, there are new clues in the gruesome murder of a 24-year-old graduate student. Imette St. Guillen was tortured and sexually assaulted, and then her body dumped beside a highway in Brooklyn, New York, on Saturday. The last time that her friends saw her was at the establishment called the Pioneer bar in New York City during the wee hours of the morning on Saturday morning. Well, tonight, we have learned that St. Guillen went to another bar called The Falls after her friend left her alone. In just a minute, details about Imette's last phone call with her best friend, Claire Higgins, and what she said.
But first, the latest on the investigation from Carol D'Aurio. She's a reporter with 1010 WINS radio. She is live right now outside The Falls bar in New York City. Carol, give us a sense of where that bar is—this is the second bar now we're hearing about—in relation to the other bar, the Pioneer, where we know she was at earlier.
CAROL D'AURIO, 1010 WINS RADIO: Right. She goes to the Pioneer bar first. Then four blocks away, she comes to The Falls. Now, here's the timeline. She leaves the Pioneer bar approximately 3:30 in the morning and arrives here, I'm told, at approximately 10 minutes to 4:00 in the morning, and she stays only 10 minutes. And I'm told that she then leaves unaccompanied. You would think that would mean that she leaves by herself.
Does she really leave by herself? There are a couple of different scenarios you can have. It's possible that someone was going to meet her outside, he's going to have a smoke. She perhaps uses the bathroom and meets him outside. The witnesses don't see her leave with anyone, and it's possible that on the sidewalk, she is out here alone.
COSBY: Yes, let me play—this is—we know that the last phone call to Imette was by her friend, Claire Higgins. And this was after Claire left Imette at the bar, at the Pioneer bar, just four blocks away, as you were saying. Let me play this. Claire asked her, Where are you? She said, I'm in another bar. When are you coming home? Later. I'll be home later.
Was there any sense that there was any sense of any concern that night from anybody you've talked to that she's expressed to friends or anyone?
D'AURIO: No, we haven't heard that. But do we know that her girlfriend, Claire, was very concerned about her. You know, she leaves her at, you know, sometime around 3:00 in the morning alone. And so she was concerned. She called her a half hour later. It's a very short phone call from as far as we can tell. And then of course, when they don't see her the next morning, then they were really worried, and that's when they started to make phone calls to try and find her.
COSBY: You bet. Let me play a little clip. This is from some of the people who live near some of the bars that you're standing in front of.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's definitely scary. It's one of those things that you never really know you could go anywhere and meet someone like that. And obviously, the biggest thing is to just stay with your friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, it's considered a very safe area. There's a bunch of NYU students always around here. I mean, it's somewhere that I walk around at night by myself, and I was never really scared at all. But yes, it is something that is scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Carol, you talked to a lot of people in the area. What are they telling you about sort of the feeling in the neighborhood there?
D'AURIO: Well, you know, this is a really trendy spot. It's a hot place. It's different from what it was years ago—lots of cafes, bistros. This is a really popular bar. It's popular with people from NYU. Lots of artists live around here.
I spoke to some young people earlier today, and what they said was they walk around here all the time in the wee hours of the morning. A young woman I spoke to who lives right above bar said that she works at another bar two blocks from here, and she said she doesn't think anything of walking at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. In fact, she comes down to this bar here for a drink before she turns in. And now...
COSBY: And what's the mood like there now, Carol? Yes, what's the mood now?
D'AURIO: Well, she was really concerned. In fact, what she explained was that her friends won't let her walk home from her other job alone. Now they're all either dropping her off in a cab or somebody accompanies her. So it really, really puts a fear in people when they hear this because she was somebody—she was their contemporary. And remember, don't forget, tomorrow would have been her 25th birthday.
COSBY: Oh, so sad. Carol, thank you very much. Please keep us posted.
And let me now bring in, if I could, New York police squad commander Joe Cardinale, who combed the scene with me yesterday, searching for clues. You know, Joe, now we just heard from Carol that she obviously went to this other bar, where Carol was standing in front of, The Falls. What does that say to you?
JOE CARDINALE, FORMER NYPD SQUAD COMMANDER: Well, it just gives another location for the police to start another part of the investigation. More canvassing will be conducted at that location. And now they can, you know, put another piece of the puzzle together, and the timeframe moves up a little bit. Now they just have to piece together between there and Brooklyn.
COSBY: Yes, and who could have done this now? If—you know, say nobody saw her leave—you know, everybody saw her leave without someone, the sense is that we're hearing. Maybe somebody was waiting outside, as Carol suggested, maybe somebody was waiting at her home, right?
CARDINALE: Maybe, but you know, that's people within the bar. That's probably the staff of the bar saying, Oh, I didn't see her leave with anybody. I mean, what Carol said could be possible, that somebody was waiting outside that she met them inside and said, Oh, I'll meet you outside. You know, it could also be that somebody was just waiting outside, looking for somebody. It could be, you know, she was flagging a cab, maybe somebody she met earlier that night.
It could be so many things, but you know, the puzzle will be put together with the pieces of evidence that they have right now, and then it's going to lead to Brooklyn to yet another crime scene. Like we said yesterday, you know, there's multiple crime scenes here. The phone, the two bars, everything is, you know, a piece of the puzzle for the crime scene.
COSBY: You know, and Joe, we went to that place where that anonymous 911 call came down. Let me play a little clip when you and I were out there yesterday.
COSBY: Saturday night around 8:30, right in front of this diner, an anonymous call is made from this pay phone booth. Why this area? What does that mean?
CARDINALE: Well, apparently, the caller is familiar with this area, knows that this is a working phone. That diner gets crowded at that time. You know, there's people waiting in the lobby. The parking lot's full. There's phones in the lobby, but he chooses to stay anonymous, so he comes outside and uses probably this side of the phone.
COSBY: You know, Joe, do you think it's someone local to know—we went out and we saw the area.
CARDINALE: Yes, I still think it's somebody local. He's familiar with that area. You know, to complete, you know, the end of the crime, he took her to a location that he's familiar with, you know? And this 911 caller very well may be involved with this. And you saw the area yourself, Rita. You know what the area's like there. It's just above the guard rail. You know, somebody pulls up—I don't know where he had the body, possibly in the trunk—gets out, makes sure nobody's around, takes it out, throws it over. And that's it.
But once again, she's not in an area that's really viewable by people passing by because not too many walk in that area. So it's only for cars, and it is a desolate area. You know, prostitutes have been known to use that location, so maybe the 911 caller was doing things that he wasn't supposed to be doing and he stayed anonymous for that reason.
But they're going to have to check down every lead with that. I'm sure—you know, the more this is put out by the media, people are going to come forward saying, You know, I did see that girl that night, and I saw her talking to this individual. Even—you know, the family made a plea last night, saying, you know, Please, if you have anything, come forward, and that plea should go out every night because people think that because the police are saying something along the lines that they saw that they already know about something. Call in anyways. Let them know exactly what you saw. You want to stay anonymous, stay anonymous. That's not a problem. You know, you can still give the information to the police, and they can work it from there.
COSBY: No, great point. One of the other things, too, is this quilt. If we can put up a picture of it? They released this last night, saying, Look, anybody, if you recognize this is particular pattern, commercial grade—you talked to some of the hotels in the area. What did you learn?
CARDINALE: You know, you really shouldn't lock into the hotels. I mean, commercial grade, yes, but it's not saying it came from the hotel that evening.
COSBY: But they've been questioned, right, some of the local hotels there?
CARDINALE: Oh, yes, they've been questioned. You know, they—and the police have, you know, been out there, and they've hit the places a few times. And you know, they're going to continue to do this. There's a couple of hotels that are in that area that I know they went to.
But you know, this also could be something that was kept in the perp's car. And you know, it could be something that he already had. And there's, you know, the other clues that they have to look into, as well—the tape, the shoelaces, the wire, as reported in “The Post.” You know, these are all things that have been to be checked out and traced back.
COSBY: You know, and we look at sort of a timeline of the movements that we know of Imette's last hours and when her body was found—you know, she (INAUDIBLE) she goes out with her friends, police receive that anonymous call then we get later, and then police also find Imette's body in Brooklyn. After all, you look at all these sort of timelines, there's a bit of time. I mean, what was going on? I mean, does it sound like the offender held her, you know, captive, unfortunately, and unfortunately, maybe, tortured her before they dropped off her body?
CARDINALE: I think once they get a time of death, you know, close to the time of death, I think they'll be able to answer those, you know, a little better.
COSBY: All right. Well, of course, we hope that they get some answers. The family's just an amazing family. It's so sad to hear this. Joe, thank you. We'll stick with you on this.
And the last bar that, of course, Imette, went to on Saturday night is The Falls, is ironically owned by the same person who operates Dorian's Red Hand (ph) on the Upper West—Upper East Side, rather. That's the same bar where preppie killer Robert Chambers met his victim before killing her in Central Park back in 1986. That was, of course, a very big case back then.
So what type of person would kill someone like Imette St. Guillen so viciously, so brutally? Joining me now is criminal profiler Pat Brown. You know, Pat, it is just horrific to hear, unfortunately, what it sounds like this girl went through in her final hours. What kind of a monster does this?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Rita, you've got it right, this is a monster. And he most likely is a serial killer, or we have a serial killer duo, possibly, in this case. We don't have what's called an anger retaliatory killer. That's the kind of serial that jumps out of the bushes and grabs you and strangles you and rapes you and does it real quick because he's angry and just wants to focus on, you know, setting forth that anger. We have somebody who really likes his power and control. He loves the whole sadistic act, the bondage, the torture, and watching somebody suffer, which is what this poor Imette went through because he wanted to prolong this for his own enjoyment.
This is a guy who's going to be on the Net, look at a ton of pornography. So if anybody knows a psychopath who watches a lot of pornography, hey, does he have this particular blanket hanging around in the back of his van? This is the kind of tips the police want.
COSBY: Is—when you say, you know, one or more people, do you believe one person did this, or do you believe maybe there were others involved?
BROWN: Well, normally, a sexual sadist works alone because, simply, he's such a psychopath, nobody wants to be his friend. But on occasion, we do have the psychopathic duos, like we had the “Hillside Stranglers” out there, and they worked together. So it's possible somebody...
COSBY: What's your gut in this case, Pat? What's your gut in this case?
BROWN: Well, I'm really not sure which way. We have to look at the evidence. But it's very possible somebody could have been, for example, driving a van with one door open, and poor Imette walks by the van, she's grabbed, pulled in, and off they go. All they're looking for, of that guy is looking for, is a window of opportunity. And the women out there in New York need to understand, as safe as this place is most of the time, all it takes is one minute and one serial killer or serial killer duo, and that's the minute that you're in danger.
COSBY: Do you believe this is someone who has killed before?
BROWN: Absolutely. This is such...
COSBY: Why do you say that?
BROWN: Well, this is—when somebody starts this kind of sexual sadism, they don't usually go to the level of torture they committed on Imette, the amount of taping, to watch all her behaviors. It's just such a high level of gruesomeness that they must have done this someplace before, so this is probably somebody who is a little bit on the experienced side. And he's going to go out there and do it again, so we really need to get this guy off the streets.
COSBY: You know, this anonymous, caller, this 911 call that came at the diner where Joe Cardinale and I were yesterday, saying—you know, we're told that this person said, There's a body on the side of the highway, and then also provided probably pretty clear details to pinpoint the area. Do you think this is someone who's just a passerby? Do you think it's the killer, an accomplice?
BROWN: I think it's pretty odd that it would be the killer only because usually, when you go to the work of wrapping up the body and then dumping it someplace isolated, the last thing you want is somebody to find it right away. The whole point is to hide the body. So it seems to me strange that the killer would make then go and make the phone call. Those kind usually leave the bodies, like, in open areas and posed, so that everybody sees.
So I don't quite believe that this should be the guy. It should be just some passerby who doesn't want to tell his name because, Oh, my God, you know, then you're going to obviously be contacted by the police and a suspect in the crime. I wouldn't give my name, I don't think, if I found something on the side of the road like that, if I were some lone guy.
So I tend to think it's not the killer, but of course, the police are going to check. You never know when a guy says, Hey, wait a minute, I did want my work discovered. So they have to take every opportunity and every lead they can.
COSBY: A sick case. Pat, thank you very much.
And coming up, everybody: Is there anyone who would want to hurt Imette, anyone with a grudge? I'm going to ask one of her close friends right after the break. And that's not all. Take a look.
Still ahead: Susan Polk admits to the bloody killing of her husband, the father of her children. She says it was in self-defense, and for the first time, her own chilling words just hours after the stabbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN POLK: I'm not in love with my husband anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Will this tape help her case? Plus: Wait until you hear what her son thinks of his mother killing his father.
And did a tip lead police to the killer of this young woman, a college student and aspiring model? Tonight, find out what led two people to speak out and give police the information that could convict a killer.
And porn—it's cheap, accessible and addictive. Wait until you hear how easy access is turning many people into smut addicts. Is there any way to treat it? It's coming up.
COSBY: And tonight for the first time, we're hearing from the best friend of a New York City graduate student brutally tortured and murdered. Late today, we talked to Claire Higgins, who gave us this heart-wrenching statement about her dear friend, Imette St. Guillen.
Quote, “Clearly, this is a very difficult time for me. Imette was my best friend and I loved her so much. I am heart-broken and miss her deeply. I was extremely blessed to have experienced a friendship like the one we shared. It is my hope that during this time, we can honor Imette's radiant spirit and focus on the joy she brought to so many lives. With her family, I encourage anyone who may have any information about this tragedy to immediately contact the New York City Police Department, who are working diligently to bring this case to justice. Please allow Imette's family and friends this time to privacy to mourn our immense loss. Thank you.
And joining me now on the phone is another one of Imette's friends, Howard Kaufman. Howard, how long have you known Imette for, and what type of a girl is she?
HOWARD KAUFMAN, IMETTE'S FRIEND: I knew her for a while. She was just the sweetest person you ever could meet. She was—had a huge heart, really cared what other people felt and what—you know, what was important to them. I'm sure you've heard the cliche before, you know, walks into a room and lights it up. She did it. And she was the best example I've ever seen of anyone like that. I mean, she was just the sweetest person. This is such a loss.
COSBY: You know, last night, we had her mom and sister on the show, and they were making, obviously, a plea and just talking about just what a lovely, sweet, you know, caring person she was, and just as you said, radiant smile. Let's listen to what they said last night on the show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAUREEN ST. GUILLEN, IMETTE'S MOTHER: She really had such a presence about her. If you talk to anyone, they'll tell you that she was—she was just—she was like—when she walked into the room, the room just lit up. And she just made things fun, and you just felt so much better in her presence. She was a beautiful girl, but she was a bright girl and she was a good person, such a good person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Howard, did she have any enemies? Was there anybody out to get her?
KAUFMAN: Not that I know of. I mean, I can't imagine anyone who would want to hurt her. It just—it's unfathomable to me. I mean, she was just—if—whatever—however you might have felt, when she walked into the room and she noticed that you were down or something like that, she'd come over to you, see what was wrong, try to help you through it. It was just—you know, she could touch any person. And she was just that special. And I echo everything her mother said about, you know, how smart she was and how touching she was. It was just—I can't even express to you in words the loss that we feel.
COSBY: Was she the type of person who'd go to the bar alone? We know she was drinking that night. Would she have gone home with a stranger?
KAUFMAN: I highly doubt that. I mean, she just wasn't that kind of person.
COSBY: Was she a big drinker?
KAUFMAN: She would never do that.
COSBY: Was she someone who would drink a lot and maybe not realize...
KAUFMAN: No. No. I have never seen her—you know, an occasional beer, but beyond that, never.
COSBY: And how did you meet her originally, Howard? How did you guys get to know each other?
KAUFMAN: She and I belonged to a social sports league here in Manhattan, plays various sports, including dodgeball. And we met through that. You know, you mentioned that—just to give you an idea of the kind of person she was, when she first joined the league, I think it was two years ago, she played with people. And a few of her teammates, who never played after that season, when they found out what happened, they immediately contacted the league and they want to see what they can do and how they can help and they want to know about memorial services. I mean, these people who haven't seen her in years, and they just gravitate back to her during this time and just realize the loss.
COSBY: You know, what? Let me play a little bit again from her mom and sister last night, very heart-breaking with them on our air. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEJANDRA ST. GUILLEN, IMETTE'S SISTER: I would just plead with anyone who knows anything. Imette was so, so loving. And you know, her whole commitment to criminal justice and to—you know, just her belief in what was right, and you know, I just ask that people honor that and honor her commitment to justice and, you know, know that if she had seen anything -- if this had happened to somebody else and she had seen anything, she would call and she would come forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now, Howard, you talked about sort of the reaction from the group. Is there anything they're doing to keep her memory alive, too?
KAUFMAN: Absolutely. With the family's blessing, we want to set up a Web site to see if we can keep the story alive, to make sure that this doesn't fall by the wayside. We want to keep the media involved so that someone, anyone who's seen anything, even the smallest detail, will get on the phone and notify the police. It's—we want the person or persons who, you know, did this brought to justice, and the media can help us do that. And we're going to do whatever we can to make sure that the story does not get pushed aside and that—keep the pressure on the police and on the people who did this.
COSBY: Well, Howard, we will do whatever we can to help bring...
KAUFMAN: I appreciate that.
COSBY: ... her killer to justice.
KAUFMAN: And I know her family would appreciate that, and her friends, as well.
COSBY: Howard, thank you very much. Our prayers are with you and everybody there tonight.
And ironically, as you just heard from Howard, Imette was in New York studying how to bring criminals to justice. Dr. Larry Kobilinsky is a professor of forensic science at John Jay College, where Imette was on the dean's list. Dr. Kobilinsky, are they worried that somehow this could be connected to the college, maybe somebody who saw her there or another student or something?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I think the police have done a pretty thorough investigation, and it's very, very unlikely. It's essentially ruled out that anybody at the college had anything to do with this. We are in a state of shock and mourning. This is an incredible loss, a tragedy words can't even describe. The administration, the faculty, the students are all talking about this. Some of the students—the female students are expressing some fear, some concern. But it is a tragedy that ranks at the very top of whatever has ever happened to a member of the John Jay College community.
COSBY: You know, Dr. Kobilinsky, what kind of a student—we've heard some many great things—like, she was, what, an honors student? Apparently, she was quite successful there at the college.
KOBILINSKY: That's correct. She was an honors student. She—what I've heard from faculty is that she was an extremely good writer, a critical thinker, very analytical. And she was dedicated to justice. I mean, she—her undergraduate education at GWU was in criminal justice, and she then entered John Jay in 2004, enrolled in the graduate program in forensic psychology and then criminal justice. I mean, this was one of our top students. She was supposed to graduate in June. So I mean, I just can't describe what's going on at the college.
COSBY: And sort of what was the plan for her dream job? Where did—
I mean, she was studying, ironically, as we're talking about, criminal justice. Where did she see herself, doing what you're doing?.
KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, people—no, she wasn't planning to become a forensic scientist. But you know, there so many jobs that are available to somebody with criminal justice training. I don't think she wanted to be a lawyer or a forensic scientist, but she wanted to play an important role in bringing justice to the city, the state and the country.
COSBY: And real quick, you know, we've heard these details now that she went on to this other bar. Nobody saw her, you know, when she left. Nobody saw anybody with her—as we're looking at a live picture of The Falls. This was four blocks, as we were hearing, from the other bar before that. Do you think it's random or do you think somebody was waiting for her outside?.
KOBILINSKY: No, I don't think she was being stalked. I think it was random. But of course, we're dealing with a sexual deviant, a psychopath, somebody who had been fantasizing. She may have fit the model that was in his mind, in his sick mind, and unfortunately, she was there at the wrong time, at the wrong place.
COSBY: So sad. Larry, thank you very much.
And everybody at home, if you would like to contribute to the scholarship which is honoring Imette St. Guillen, please send your donation to the address that you see there on your screen. If you could, send it to Dana Trimboli at John Jay College of Criminal Justice at 899 10th Avenue, Room 3123N, New York, New York, 10019. And of course, checks should be made payable to the John Jay College Foundation in Imette's name.
Also, if you have any information on this case, of course, be sure to call Crimestoppers. We are going to stay on this case. We hope her family gets a resolution soon. Whoever could have done this horrible, brutal crime. And again, the number right there, you see it on Crimestoppers. If you've seen anything, anything unusual that night, may have seen her at some (INAUDIBLE) of the night, please be sure you call authorities -- 1-800-577-TIPS, 1-800-577-TIPS.
And still ahead, everybody: Susan Polk killed her husband, she says, in self-defense. But tonight for the first time, we're hearing her emotional interrogation just hours after the stabbing. Does it support her story?
And next: People addicted to pornography. According to experts, 25 million Americans visit cyber-sex sites every week, leading some to become sex addicts. Do you know how to spot the warning signs? And could it cost you your marriage?
COSBY: And no more sneaking around in video stores or book shops. Pornography is everywhere, and the ease of getting your hands on it is turning countless numbers of people into porn addicts, becoming hooked without even knowing it. NBC's Michael Okwu has the details.
MICHAEL OKWU, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Five years ago, Amy Tracy and her husband, Lance, a filmmaker, began what looked like a blissful, adoring marriage, until Lance's secret addiction almost split them apart.
LANCE TRACY, FORMER PORNOGRAPHY ADDICT: I think, in the worst of the worst, I was looking at porn three or four times a day, maybe an hour to two per session, per time. So that could be a six-, eight-hour day sometimes.
AMY TRACY, HUSBAND ADDICTED TO PORNOGRAPHY: I had no idea.
OKWU (on camera): When did it start feeling to you like something might have been off?
A. TRACY: I would say it was about three weeks into our marriage. It was kind of like a whirlwind of passion, and then all of a sudden he just seemed as though he wasn't very interested.
L. TRACY: You look at the stuff, and you don't have any emotions left over for your wife.
OKWU (voice-over): Amy felt lonely, even blamed herself. And just as her marriage was reaching a boiling point, she found a journal Lance kept in a computer file detailing his obsessions with online pornography.
A. TRACY: I felt totally betrayed. I felt very unattractive, just not cherished. I felt really hurt.
L. TRACY: And when I still couldn't stop, then I realized, you know, I have an issue here.
ROBERT WEISS, FOUNDER, SEXUAL RECOVERY INSTITUTE: Internet pornography is the crack cocaine of sex addiction.
OKWU: Robert Weiss runs a Los Angeles treatment center for sex addicts, 90 percent of whom are men. Weiss said, since the Internet is cheap, easy, and anonymous, it's like pouring gas on a fire, already burning in potential addicts.
WEISS: All those images are so immediate online. There so many of them, and you can go from one, to another, to another, to another. You can get really, really lost really quickly.
OKWU: The number of pornographic pages on the Web has multiplied from 14 million in 1998 to roughly 260 million in 2003. The options appear endless.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had opportunities to, you know, have a call girl-type situation.
OKWU: Experts say sex addiction is becoming more recognized as a legitimate condition, with radio shows like this one.
WEISS: I think you speak to issues a lot of spouses experience.
OKWU: There's even a documentary due out soon exploring the addiction. The filmmaker? Amy's husband, Lance.
L. TRACY: It was a way for me killing the demons that I was dealing with.
OKWU: Amy says they got back on the right track, welcoming a new son into the family after Lance took the first step, admitting that he had a problem, and after Amy insisted Lance attend intensive interventive therapy with other addicts.
A. TRACY: Oh, my gosh, it's like night and day. And I respect him so much more. There's a level of honesty and just intimacy in our relationship because we've been through this.
OKWU: Michael Okwu, NBC News, Los Angeles.
COSBY: And let's now bring in an expert, sex therapist Dr. Laura Berman. Dr. Berman, why did you think more people are addicted to porn? What is it?
DR. LAURA BERMAN, SEX THERAPIST: I think it's just the Internet, that the access is so intense. Twenty-five percent of the searches done on search engines are for porn sites. You can basically see anything, have access to it 24 hours a day, and have anonymous access, so you don't have to leave your house, you don't have to pay any extra money, and you don't have to even fully acknowledge that you're doing it to the outside world.
So in the comfort of our own home, you can have access to the World Wide Web full of every kind of porn you can imagine.
COSBY: You know, and speaking of Web, let me show some statistics. I was surprised about this: 372 million pornographic Web pages; 72 million people visit porn sites each year. I mean, you can just see just the number and how much of a business operation this is.
Are you surprised to see how much it is? And it is increasing with other behaviors? Is there something else tied to it?
BERMAN: Well, very often—I mean, sexual addiction is not considered a formal psychiatric diagnosis, but anyone who's out there treating, you know, in the world of sex therapy or even treating couples is seeing this. It's becoming a pandemic, in terms of the clinical experience of it, because couples are coming forward with this all the time.
I just had a couple I was seeing this week where the man is on the Internet six to eight hours a night looking at porn sites. It very often goes hand-in-hand with other addictions...
COSBY: Like what?
BERMAN: ... whether it's substance abuse or substances, alcohol, any kind of addiction. It's typically an addictive personality who also gets addicted to Internet porn or pornography in general. And the difference, I think, between Internet porn and regular porn, for the addict, is that you have constant temptation when you're at work on the computer, when you're at home on the Internet, at any point. You almost have to throw out your computer to try to go cold turkey, so it's really hard to isolate yourself from the pornography when you're addicted.
COSBY: You know, can a couple, can a married couple survive this when one person is so addicted, as you're talking about?
BERMAN: I think absolutely, but it's like treating any other addiction. You have to, you know, as we heard in the piece you just showed, acknowledge that you have a problem, first and foremost, and get the help. You're not going to resolve it by yourself any more than you would any other addiction.
So you need to get help with a trained therapist, perhaps go into a 12-step program. There are sexual addicts anonymous groups. There's sexual addiction support lines now. So people can get the help and the assistance they need to resolve the addiction and move toward rehabilitation.
COSBY: Let me put some statistics about adult behavior, about Internet behavior. Forty million regular visitors, 72 percent are male, 28 percent female. Twenty percent of the men admit viewing sites at work. Why more men than women? What is it inherently?
BERMAN: Part of it may be that women aren't reporting it as often, because there's more taboos against women using pornography than men. Part of it may be that this is just something that men are more interested in.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think the most important thing is that there is a place for pornography, and erotica, and healthy couples, and individual sexual relationships. It's not like all porn is bad. It's when it's getting in the way of the intimacy in your relationship, it's getting in the way of a healthy sex life, and, in many cases, it's getting in the way of your ability to even hold down a job, or spend time with your family, or carry out your daily tasks. That's when it's really considered a problem.
COSBY: Dr. Berman, amazing. You know, I was so surprised to see some of those numbers. There are 372 million Web pages. That's incredible. Thank you very much.
And still ahead, everybody, you don't often see the faces of the people whose tips bring criminals to justice, but tonight two tipsters who helped cops track down this woman's killer are going to join me LIVE & DIRECT.
And next, for the first time, you'll see the interrogation of a woman who admits to killing her own husband. Plus, what her own son thinks about his mother's stunning admission.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GABRIEL POLK, MOTHER STABBED FATHER TO DEATH: Mom (bleep) shot dad with a shotgun. Yeah (bleep) crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe there's a self-defense issue here? We're not going to know about it.
SUSAN POLK, ADMITTED TO STABBING HUSBAND TO DEATH: I didn't do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know?
POLK: I did not kill my husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you put somebody up to it?
POLK: Of course not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, tonight a first look at what accused killer Susan Polk told investigators just hours after her husband's brutal murder. In a Court TV exclusive, which will air tomorrow night on “Catherine Crier Live,” you'll see some of what Polk claims she did and did not know about the crime.
These tapes are being released as jury selection gets under way in Polk's murder trial in California. Here's some of what she told detectives about the turbulent relationship with her late husband, Felix.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't seem really choked up. You don't seem really upset that he's gone. I find that kind of—I mean, granted...
POLK: I'm very, very, very upset.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do well at not showing it.
POLK: Well, you know, I can't defend myself against an accusation like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, just it's an observation that I'm making.
POLK: I'm not in love with my husband anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And LIVE & DIRECT tonight is Court TV anchor Catherine Crier.
She is covering the Polk case from the courthouse.
Catherine, how would you describe Susan Polk? You've seen all those tapes.
CATHERINE CRIER, COURT TV NEWS ANCHOR: Well, it's really quite interesting, because if you buy the notion that we're talking about abuse of this wife over the years, a lot of the things are very consistent.
I had a contractor on today that sold them the house, and he talked about how, when they were together, she and Felix, she would almost seem to shrink in size, talk softer. When he'd go to the house and she was alone, she seemed a bigger person. She seemed more open. And in so many ways, the behavior is very consistent with some sort of abuse.
But on the other hand, they go to the house, they find the body. She seems to come across as very calm, very quiet, and deliberate in the fact that she did not do this. And it was only days later she finally comes forward with this self-defense story.
COSBY: Yes, in fact, at one point she said that she didn't even know that her husband was dead. Let me play that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLK: I don't have enough information to speculate about what happened. I don't even know that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was he seeing any other...
POLK: I don't even know that he's dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... ladies? Was he seeing...
POLK: I mean, do I know that he's dead? I mean, who has identified him? Did my son find his body?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
POLK: Oh, my god.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: “Oh, my god”? You know, Catherine, it's strange, because I've interviewed her a couple of times. She admits that she stabbed him multiple times. How do you read what she was saying to interrogators right away when she was arrested?
CRIER: Well, again, you've got so many layers here. This story is such a fascinating psychological mystery; it's not who, but why, and whether her story jives with the kind of information we're going to see in the courtroom.
She, in fact, talked about how, after the murder—and when you interviewed her, you may have gone through this information—she expected the cops to just appear. And then she thought, “Well, I'll wait, and they'll show up,” and then it became harder and harder to pick up the phone.
Now, we may not buy the story, but actually there could well be a ring of truth that, “I'll sit here and wait, and maybe, if I just deny this, it will all go away.” On the other hand, she said, “Look, I had boys to take care of at home. I couldn't be locked away. You know, I had to deny this, because I didn't think the cops would believe me. I thought they'd side with my well-respected husband.”
So, again, there are going to be two very different sides portrayed in this trial.
COSBY: It's going to be interesting. In fact, at one point, Catherine, she even sort of claimed that a patient threatened her husband. Let me play that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLK: My husband did not lead an impeccable life. He's had his life threatened before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By who?
POLK: Well, you know, I wish I could give you the name, but it was in his patient files that he had a patient who threatened to kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long ago was that?
POLK: And to stab him. She actually brought a knife to a session.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now, did it seem like the detectives, Catherine, believed her answers or did they know what they were dealing with right away?
CRIER: Well, they had responded to numerous 911 calls to the house. Actually, both parties would call against the other. There were restraining orders over time, taken not only by Felix, but also by Susan against him. So the officers had dealt with this family for a long time, and I think that they believed it was a family member. Gabriel, the youngest son, was looked at that night. But, in fact, I'm sure they were looking very, very closely at Susan right from the start.
COSBY: And, in fact, detectives talked to Susan about Gabriel. This is the comment about Gabriel, the son who actually found his father's body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GABRIEL POLK: I stumbled in on Dad. No, no. She just shot him the (bleep) chest. I had to call 911 and (bleep). What the hell is wrong with her? I hope they give her the (bleep) death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Yes, that was actually Gabriel on the phone, Catherine. You know, this make it so complex, because, well, she's got three sons. We know at least one is going to testify against her. The other one's going to testify for her, right? I mean, talk about division in the family.
CRIER: Yes, she has the oldest son on her witness list. He was actually in college, although he might be able to fill in a lot of information while he was home, which is trying to build her defense that there was ongoing, long-standing abuse. The middle son, Eli, is going to testify vehemently that his father threatened his mother, that the father was the aggressor.
And the youngest son, that you just played the clip from, is going to testify that mom sort of plotted and planned to kill Dad. So you've got the entire family in on this, but coming in from different positions.
COSBY: You know, she's representing herself. She, of course, was doing that originally, then she took on Dan Horowitz, then she stopped the representation by Dan Horowitz and Ivan Golde. She's doing it herself again. Should this woman be defending herself in this case?
CRIER: The old adage, “Anyone who has themselves as a lawyer has a fool for a client,” is very true. And, in fact, throughout the jury selection, she and the district attorney have broached this subject with the members of the jury panel, because the district attorney is worried that she might be such the underdog that, if he simply does his job, objecting, treating her as opposing counsel, he'll be seen as sort of the courtroom bully.
And on the other hand, the jurors have been—the panelists have been pretty candid, saying you really shouldn't be representing yourself. But those who actually make it to the 12 sitting in the jury box will be those individuals who say she has the right to represent herself. We understand it's a choice, and we're going to put both parties on an equal footing.
COSBY: Well, it's going to be interesting to watch. Catherine, thank you very much for sharing those tapes with us. We appreciate it.
And still ahead, everybody, it is rare that you're ever going to see the people who give police the anonymous tip that brings criminals to justice. But coming up, you're going to meet two who helped catch a killer, and it's coming up next.
COSBY: Tonight, six quick-thinking tipsters will share a hefty reward for helping investigators in Ohio catch a suspected killer. Philadelphia philanthropist Joe Mammana, who you see her with the Ohio crime-stoppers, offered the reward in hopes of finding the person who killed Julie Popovich.
The 21-year-old Ohio State University student disappeared last August after a night of partying at a local bar. Her body was later found in a nearby reservoir.
And thanks to the information called in by the tipsters, this man is awaiting trial, charged with the murder, kidnapping and rape of Julie Popovich.
And joining me now LIVE & DIRECT are two of the tipsters, Julie's friend, Justin Webb, and also Harold Dalenbach. Each of these folks learned that they're going to split a reward of $31,000 several ways.
Congratulations to both of you for doing the right thing. You know, Justin, why did you call in your tip?
JUSTIN WEBB, JULIE'S FRIEND, TIPSTER: Basically, it was because she was my friend. I had worked with her at Max and Erma's, and I just basically wanted to help out her family, and try and do the right thing, and help out my friend any way I could.
COSBY: You know, Harold, why did you call in your tip?
HAROLD DALENBACH: It was just the right thing to do. I felt it was just the right thing to do. And to Julie's family, I think it was the right thing to do.
COSBY: Absolutely. You know, Justin, you saw Julie the night that she disappeared. And she was with this guy. It was a stranger. Tell us about this girl and, like, how that all came about. Did you see anything suspicious?
WEBB: Not really anything suspicious that night there. It was a friend's birthday that night. We were all at the bar having a good time. She was just with him most of the night, not noticeably hanging on him or anything. They were just both talking throughout the night. And then later that night they ended up leaving the bar together, and ever since then we haven't seen him.
COSBY: Why do you think she left with a stranger? Did anybody try to stop her?
WEBB: No, nobody tried to stop her. Everybody just assumed that they were both friends, that they had been talking all night, that nothing was really wrong with the whole situation.
COSBY: You know, Harold, in your case, the suspect bought a car. Let me show—this is actually the charges that he's facing. Nineteen-year-old Adam Saleh, he's charged with murder. He's also charged with kidnapping, rape, also tampering with evidence.
Tell us about this car. What, he purchased a vehicle?
DALENBACH: Yes, he purchased a vehicle, actually, on a Tuesday, in August of 2005. And that Thursday, Julie came up missing. And the air conditioning was not working when my wife sold it to him Tuesday, and we set up a date for him to come to our house Saturday for me to fix it. And when he brought the vehicle to my house on that Saturday, I noticed some things to the vehicle that, you know, I told Detective McCain of the Columbus division.
COSBY: You thought that, what, maybe a crime had been committed in that vehicle?
DALENBACH: I really don't want to go into details of what I've seen. I really don't want to jeopardize the case, but I think there was some evidence.
COSBY: You know, let me ask you, Harold, too. You're getting money from Joe Mammana, who obviously puts up a lot of money in helping a lot of folks resolve cases, which is a great thing. How does it feel? And do you hope that this also inspires other people, too?
DALENBACH: I hope it inspires people, but I hope it's not for the money. Like I said before, I think it was just the right thing to do. Me and my wife didn't do it for the money. You know, we just did it because it was the right thing to do.
COSBY: And, Justin, what message do you want to send to other folks out there? Because, you know, sometimes folks are reluctant to come forward. You know, we've got this case right now with Imette St. Guillen. And the family out there begging for help.
WEBB: Basically, that, you know, definitely help out any way you can. You know, there's family, friends all depending on you to help out. And the money meant nothing to me at all. I'd give it all back if I could have my friend back.
COSBY: Absolutely. Both of you, thank you very much.
DALENBACH: Thank you.
WEBB: Thank you.
COSBY: And thank you for doing the right thing. And I do hope the folks who are watching call in whatever tips they can. Thank you very much.
Still ahead, everybody, a woman who police say helped a killer con escape from prison responds to the question: Why did you do it? That's next.
COSBY: Well, we first told you about Toby Young, when there was an all-points bulletin issued for her and an escaped killer. Cops say Toby helped convict John Manard escape from prison by sneaking him into a dog crate. Tonight, she's behind bars. And Brian Webb, of NBC affiliate KSHB, asked her, why did she do it?
BRIAN WEBB, REPORTER, KSHB-TV (voice-over): The McMinn County Jail, Toby Young's home for the past three days. I talked to her today just outside of her cell.
TOBY YOUNG, IN CUSTODY AT MCMINN COUNTY JAIL: I'm doing all right.
We had a bad car crash, and I'm all bruised up.
WEBB: Toby is still in pain with scrapes, cuts, bumps and bruises from the wreck. She says she told John Manard to stop during the police chase because there was simply nowhere to go, but she wouldn't talk about planning the escape or her relationship with John.
(on camera): Was it just a love that brought you and John this far?
YOUNG: I don't want to talk about that right now.
YOUNG: I will at some point, but I don't want to right now.
(voice-over): The big question: Why did she do it? It's an answer even she doesn't seem to know.
YOUNG: I've been trying to think that through. I don't know. A lot of different reasons, but I don't know yet. It almost seemed like it wasn't real, you know? And then it was.
WEBB: After a few minutes, it was back to the cell for Toby, scared and alone, worried about her future behind bars, but looking forward to coming back to Kansas to see friends and family.
YOUNG: I love them all, and I miss them.
COSBY: And that was Brian Web of NBC affiliate KSHB reporting and doing that interview.
And coming up tomorrow, the soul survivor of the West Virginia mining tragedy is recovering in amazing form. I'm going to be speaking with Randy McCloy's wife, Anna, to see how Randy is doing two months after his 12 colleagues lost their lives inside that mine. And that's tomorrow night on LIVE & DIRECT.
And that does it for me tonight. I'm Rita Cosby. Joe Scarborough starts right now—Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: All right. Thanks so much, Rita.
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