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'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for March 22

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Guests: Debra Opri, Stacey Honowitz, Mickey Sherman, Angela Virginia, Quintin Henning; Own Lafave, Frank Scafidi, David Goldin, Nancie Kast, Kevin O’Donnell, Clint Van Zandt, Joe Cardinale

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, a major breakthrough in the murder of Imette St. Guillen.  Prime suspect Darryl Littlejohn has now been charged with first-degree murder in the savage killing of the 24-year-old graduate student.  And Littlejohn himself spoke out for the first time about the case.


DARRYL LITTLEJOHN, INDICTED IN ST. GUILLEN MURDER:  I’m a likely suspect because I have a criminal background and I wasn’t supposed to be at work.

SCOTT WEINBERGER, WCBS-TV:  Did you kill Imette St. Guillen?

LITTLEJOHN:  No, I did not.


COSBY:  And tomorrow, he will make his first court appearance.  We’ve got this story covered with every different angle.  Davidson Goldin with “The New York Sun” newspaper is joining us, and also Scott Weinberger (ph) of WCBS telephone, who sat down for that very exclusive face-to-face interview with the accused murderer.

Davidson, let me start with you.  What do you know about the indictment?  Will it include any rape charges...


DAVIDSON GOLDIN, “NEW YORK SUN”:  Well, our sense, at this point, is that there will not be any indication that they believe Darryl Littlejohn at least will be accused criminally of raping Imette St. Guillen.  Of course, police do believe that he raped her before brutally killing her.  But based on the evidence that’s been presented to the grand jury, the first-degree murder charge—the first-degree murder charge will be based on torture, rather than rape.  And that is because, at this point, based on the evidence they have, they’re not able to prove that Darryl Littlejohn was the person who raped Imette St. Guillen.

The main piece of evidence, as you know, Rita, is the DNA that was found on the binds, the ties that were binding her hands together, and that would indicate that she was tortured while she was murdered, but there’s no proof there that he’s the one who raped her.

COSBY:  Have you heard anything, Davidson, about kidnapping charges?

GOLDIN:  Kidnapping charges, We believe, will be part of the indictment.  That’s one of the other causes here that will lead to the first degree charge.  And that, of course, the police believe and the prosecutors presented to the grand jury a case in which Mr. Littlejohn abducted Imette as they were leaving The Falls nightclub just about a month ago and then forced her to go with him either to his house in Queens or somewhere else en route to Brooklyn, where her body was dumped.

COSBY:  And we now have also Nancie Kast of “The Daily News” joining us.  Nancie, what charges are you going to hear—what are you hearing from your sources of what’s coming tomorrow?

NANCIE KAST, “NEW YORK DAILY NEWS”:  Well, there’s going to be a press conference by the Brooklyn district attorney, Charles Heinz (ph), probably with police commissioner Ray Kelly tomorrow to announce what’s in the indictment.  It is sealed until Mr. Littlejohn is arraigned at 2:00 PM in the Brooklyn supreme court.

COSBY:  And walk us through what’s going to happen tomorrow, Nancie.

KAST:  Well, what happens, basically, is that he will be brought into the courtroom and the indictment will be sealed—I mean, excuse me, unsealed.  And then he will plead not guilty or guilty to it, presumably not guilty, through his lawyer.  The lawyer he has now will be given the choice of continuing pro bono, or the judge will appoint another lawyer for him.

COSBY:  And Davidson, what do you—you know, we were talking about the ties that bind.  Do you think we’re going to hear a lot more tomorrow in terms of other evidence that’s out there, when it’s unsealed?

GOLDIN:  Well, Rita, that, of course, is the big question.  We have not heard any new evidence in this case since Ray Kelly, the police commissioner, identified Mr. Littlejohn as the prime suspect about 10 days ago.  As the grand jury’s been meeting now, over the course of the last six or seven days periodically, hearing this case, we don’t know what other evidence they might have heard.  And tomorrow, we will hear the Brooklyn DA lay out the case that his prosecutors will be using against Mr. Littlejohn.

As far as who his lawyer is, Kevin O’Donnell is representing him pro bono and says he’ll continue to do that for the duration of this case.  So we’re now beginning to see the legal teams on both sides set up.  We’ve seen Mr. O’Donnell over the last week or so.  I know he was on your show, Rita, talking about how he plans to defend Mr. Littlejohn.  Tomorrow is the prosecution’s turn to lay out their case and give what they believe is enough to put him behind bars for life.

COSBY:  And in fact, we’re going to talk to Kevin O’Donnell in just a minute or two.  Nancie, the family, too, Imette’s family—we understand they’re in New York, right?

KAST:  Yes, they are in nay.  They came down to be at the arraignment.  In fact a family spokesperson just said that having lost a beloved daughter and a sister, that they felt they owed it to Imette to be here for the arraignment of the individual who is accused of her murder.  And as he said it, you know, if it was your child, how could you not be here?

COSBY:  Absolutely.  Many people can certainly understand that.  Nancy and Davidson, thank you very much.

And now let’s go to WCBS’s Scott Weinberger, who met Littlejohn face to face at Rikers Island jail for an exclusive interview.  You know, Scott, I want to play the clip because you asked him the question that everybody wants to know, Did you do this?  And I want to play that, and then I want to get your response.



LITTLEJOHN:  I’m a likely suspect because I have a criminal background and I wasn’t supposed to be at work.

SCOTT WEINBERGER, WCBS REPORTER:  Did you kill Imette St. Guillen?

LITTLEJOHN:  No, I did not.


COSBY:  You know, Scott, you’ve looked at this—this guy face to face, one of the few people who’s actually sort of seen him.  Did you find him credible?  Did you find him believable?

WEINBERGER:  Well, you know, Rita, to start off before the interview, we talked to a lot of his neighbors and we talked to some of his family members, and they always said in their description of him that he was, you know, very soft-spoken, that he was well-spoken.  So you know, in approaching the attorneys to do the interview, we knew that he wanted to say he was not guilty, and we thought the opportunity was there to do it.

Sitting down with him, having an opportunity to talk to him, you know, we wanted to ask him the questions about a lot of the evidence.  Of course, the attorney set some guidelines before the interview that we couldn’t talk about specific evidence, and of course, we couldn’t talk about what the witness statements may have been to police.

But specifically, that was the question that was on my mind, is, Did he do it?  And I thought he handled that and a lot of other questions well.

COSBY:  And in fact, I want to show another clip.  You did a great job, I thought, of the interview, Scott, and you asked him about, you know, his cooperation.  A lot of people have made it sound like the cops were sort of chasing him down.  He put a very different perspective, and let me play that.


LITTLEJOHN:  I cooperated fully even before I was placed under arrest.  I went to the 75th precinct voluntarily.  I was not handcuffed.  I was—not any of that.  I went there voluntarily.


COSBY:  You know, and there’s another part, too, Scott, where you asked him specifically about the DNA, and I found this really surprising because there were reports out there that he was the only guy in the bar who didn’t give DNA.  And this is what Darryl Littlejohn told you about this.  This was a surprising answer.


LITTLEJOHN:  There was never a question about me consenting to give my DNA.  When they first approached me at The Falls, I provided them with my real name, my real address, Social Security number, birthday, so on, so forth.


COSBY:  You know, Scott, that’s a very  different answer than what we’ve heard publicly, right?

WEINBERGER:  Well, Rita, yes.  When you talk to his attorney, he’ll tell you that Darryl Littlejohn waived the right to have to get a subpoena for his DNA.  There’s some other things that are important.  You know, we did ask him some things specifically about scratches on his neck.  You remember that.  You talked about that on a show that I happened to see a clip of.  And also, some other important things, including how he feels about the family of Imette St. Guillen.  We’re going to run that tonight on, you know, WCBS tonight, and also, we’ll have it on  Those are questions that we had.  We wanted to know, and he answers those pretty straightforward.

COSBY:  You know, let’s first talk about the scratches, too, because, apparently—and we’ve got a little—a little transcript here.  Let me put up—in fact, Littlejohn says, “Polaroids.  They made me strip down to the waist.  They made me extend my arms—both of my arms, rather, my frontal, my back, my face, my neck, the upper torso.”  And then you asked, “Did you have then or do you have any type of scratches on your body,” and he said, “No, I don’t.”

When you saw him, he’s got a couple scratches on his face, like, that we could see.  But those look—are those old scratches or new scratches, from your gleaning?

WEINBERGER:  Well, to be honest with you, Rita, I wasn’t judging any of that on his face.  I don’t know, you know, what context those were.  I actually didn’t really notice any scratches on his face, so—you know, we did have an opportunity to look at them, but not extensively, and obviously not in a forensic way.  So I can’t say for sure that those were scratches.

COSBY:  And you know, Scott, you bring up a good point.  He just looks like he’s got some scars, and it may have just been—he’s had a rough life, as we all know, been in and out of prison.  You know what’s surprising (INAUDIBLE) Scott?  He seems very quiet, very soft-spoken.  Was that—were you sort of surprised at his demeanor and the way he spoke with you?

WEINBERGER:  Well, Rita, as I said earlier, that was one of the things that really intrigued me to want to do the interview.  You know, in talking with him—and I’ve done a few of these jailhouse interviews, and of course, I have a background in law enforcement and was involved, obviously, in arresting people and prosecuting people—you know, you get a sense, originally, when you hear about him and when the reports come out of, you know, horrible bouncer who was, you know, assuming (ph) and someone who obviously had a tough life, as you mentioned—you kind of put together a description in your own mind of what he may be like, and I was quite surprised.

COSBY:  Did he give you any sense on who may have done this?  Because he says he wasn’t the one.  Does he have any idea, if it’s not him?

WEINBERGER:  We didn’t get into that, Rita.  Not at all.

COSBY:  And what were his impressions of Imette, finally?  As you talked about with his family, he at least offer his condolences to the family.  What were his impressions of her?  Did he—was there anything lasting, from the way at least he described it?

WEINBERGER:  Well, he did talk about the fact of seeing her at the bar, and then he did—I asked the question, Were you told to escort her from the bar?  He talks about that.  And that’s about the extent of what we were able to get, up to the point where she’s leaving the bar.

COSBY:  Well, it’s a terrific interview, and we’ll be watching for it.  That’s two hours from now on WCBS.  Scott, thank you very much.  We appreciate you being here.

And Darryl Littlejohn’s attorney, Kevin O’Donnell, joins me now live on the phone in his first interview since the charges were filed today.

Kevin, first of all, your reaction and your client’s reaction?  You knew this was coming, right?

KEVIN O’DONNELL, DARRYL LITTLEJOHN’S ATTORNEY:  Oh, there was no doubt about it, Rita.  It wasn’t a question of if, it was a question of when.  And you know, I am a little surprised that it took this long, but the DA had—there was no rush on the DA’s part to make this indictment happen.  They had plenty of time.  He is in custody.  But again, I am a little surprised at how long it took them.

COSBY:  Walk us through what’s going to happen tomorrow.  How he will plead?

O’DONNELL:  He’s absolutely—he’s going to plead absolutely not guilty.

COSBY:  Does he understand the seriousness now of the charges, now that it’s gone to an indictment?

O’DONNELL:  Of course he does.  And he’s not surprised by this, either.  About a week-and-a-half ago, Commissioner Kelly named him as the prime suspect.  So as I said earlier, it wasn’t a question of if but when.

COSBY:  You know, you just heard from Scott Weinberger, who did the interview with him.  Why did you think it was important for him to speak out and do this interview, Kevin?

O’DONNELL:  Well, since a couple of weeks ago, when his mug shot appeared on one of the covers of the tabloids, with the caption, “It’s him,” he’s been absolutely crucified by the media.  And I understand that, but because of that, the presumption of innocence has been lost.  So it was important for me to let the people understand that there’s a human being behind that face, and it’s not a human who, in my opinion, is one of these hardened criminals—despite his criminal record.  I’m not hiding from that.  He has his past.  However, he does have a very soft-spoken personality.  He’s very intelligent.  He’s articulate.   And from day one to me, Rita, he’s maintained his innocence.

So it’s important for me to let the people who are watching see who he is and answer questions, and because of the intense scrutiny by the media and their conclusion that he’s guilty, I’m just trying to balance that.  All he’s looking for is a fair trial.

COSBY:  I know you told me that your client went to work and went home.  Has he maintained that story?  Has he changed that story to you?

O’DONNELL:  Not at all.

COSBY:  One of the things you said to me, the blue van—and if we can put up a picture—because I thought that was so significant, Kevin, when you said that to us on our show.  We’re looking at a picture of it here, the blue van that the two eyewitnesses said that they saw, you know, him basically pulling Imette into the blue van that night—that blue van was grounded, right?

O’DONNELL:  That’s correct, Rita.

COSBY:  So how did he get home that night?  What transportation did he get home with?

O’DONNELL:  He took the subway.

COSBY:  He took the subway?


COSBY:  And do we have a record of that?

O’DONNELL:  No, we’re still looking into that.

COSBY:  But he says that he—did he go with anybody?

O’DONNELL:  No, he went home alone, just like he does just about every night when he leaves that bar.  He’s been working at that bar for approximately five months.

COSBY:  And do we know—is there a record?  Have you looked into see if there’s at least a record or a stamp or something?

O’DONNELL:  Well, Rita, I take the subway, too, and when I use a Metro card that’s expired, I don’t save it.  I throw it away.  So it’s going to be very difficult to track that Metro card down.  But again, I don’t have to prove that he didn’t do it.  And that’s the problem with all of this scrutiny.  It’s the burden of the people to prove that he did it.

COSBY:  In his case, though, was it an expired Metro card, in that case, Kevin?


COSBY:  So he used up the card, in other words, on that last take?

O’DONNELL:  That’s correct.

COSBY:  Have you checked to see, though, if there’s a record?  Because you would think that maybe there’s surveillance tapes to there’s a record that his card was taken in?

O’DONNELL:  We’re looking into that now.

COSBY:  There’s also—I want to get to this because there was this guy, Kwan (ph), that came out in the paper, Kevin, and it almost made it sound like he was almost in cahoots with Littlejohn, another guy who dressed up as a federal marshal at the bar and acted strange, was the way he was portrayed by another employee.  Have you talked to this guy, Kwan, who knows Kevin?  I mean, who knows Darryl.

O’DONNELL:  Yes.  I’ve spoke to Kwan, and my reaction to whatever he was wearing and what my client was wearing concerning law enforcement outfits or clothing is, So what?  Kwan was in Chicago at the time of this incident.  He was nowhere near New York.

COSBY:  He was—and actually, do me a favor, Kevin?  We got to go to a quick break.  Stick with us because we’re going to talk with you a few minutes after the break.

And everybody, up next, we’re going to have much more with Kevin O’Donnell, the attorney for Darryl Littlejohn.  We’ll talk more about the indictment of Darryl Littlejohn, including what investigators still don’t know about Imette St. Guillen’s murder.  As you just heard, there’s a lot of open questions.  That’s not all.  Take a look.

Still ahead, a desperate search for two young boys who vanished without a trace.  Now their families and police are begging anyone with information to come forward.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I miss my son so much!  (INAUDIBLE)  I don’t know if I can go (ph) any other day!


COSBY:  The boy’s parents join us LIVE AND DIRECT tonight with an urgent plea.

Plus, a teenager disappears and is found alive 10 years later.




COSBY:  Where did she go, and why did it take so long to find her? 

The shocking story from the man who helped reunite her with her family.

And gone in 60 seconds.  Car thieves need only a minute to steal your vehicle.  But now we’ll show you high-tech bait helping cops put the brakes on these criminals in record time.  That and a whole lot more coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.



LITTLEJOHN:  I cooperated fully even before I was placed under arrest.  I went to the 75th precinct voluntarily.  I was not handcuffed.  I was—not any of that.  I went there voluntarily.


COSBY:  And that was Darryl Littlejohn doing an interview, talking to WCBS television.

Let’s continue now with Kevin O’Donnell, Darryl Littlejohn’s attorney.  Kevin, I had to cut you off, I’m sorry, because we had to go to a commercial break.  I want to have you repeat again what you said to me about this guy, Kwan, because there’s been a lot of suspicion that maybe somebody else—you know, there was—the reports made it sound like he might have been in synch with him and the federal marshals thing.  Continue again about what this guy Kwan knows or doesn’t know about Darryl that night.

O’DONNELL:  Well, Kwan wasn’t in synch with Darryl because Darryl had nothing to do with this.  Kwan was in Chicago at the time, so he had absolutely nothing to do with this whatsoever.

COSBY:  And where was Kwan that night?  Was he even at the bar?

O’DONNELL:  No, he was in Chicago.

COSBY:  And does he believe Darryl had anything to do with this?

O’DONNELL:  There a number of people, Rita, that have come forward to me that support Darryl in a way that I’ve never represented a client before.  They’ve indicated what a soft-spoken gentlemen he is.  He keeps to himself.  All this guy was trying to do is make ends meet.  That’s the only reason why he was working.  And he’s not the kind of guy, because of his record, that can go into Smith Barney and apply for a job in the mailroom.  It’s very difficult for a convicted felon to get employment anywhere.  So yes, he did violate the terms of his probation, but he wasn’t doing it in an unlawful manner, in a way that, you know, he’s out sticking people up.

COSBY:  Now, you also told me, Kevin, a little bit earlier that Darryl was actually supposed to go with Kwan, right?  Tell us about that.

O’DONNELL:  Well, yes, he was supposed to go on the trip, but there was no room for him.  They drove out to Chicago, and the car was full.  And unfortunately, Darryl stayed behind, went to work that night, and now the police have pinned this murder on him.

And I just want to say once again, Rita, my prayers are with the St.  Guillen family and they always will be.  I can’t imagine what they’re going through.  And I promise them that I in no way, shape or form will put Imette on trial here.  She did absolutely nothing wrong that night.  She is a victim.  She did nothing wrong, and I will make no comment about her or any of her actions if this goes as far as a trial.

COSBY:  Oh, good for you.  And of course, this poor woman went through, obviously, hell and back, unfortunately.  And of course, our prayers are definitely with the family.  You know—you know, Kevin, Kwan also was supportive of him, too, right?  And is Kwan is his real name?

O’DONNELL:  No, I’m not going to get into what his real name is.  He’s

he wants to keep out of this as much as he can.  Already, he’s in this, but—and I’m sure, eventually, people are going to find out exactly who he is.  But as for now, I’m going to respect his privacy.

COSBY:  I understand.  I want to ask you, also, real quick, because I think the subway thing is very important—do you know what subway station he went to?  How far is the subway from The Falls?

O’DONNELL:  Well, I do, but I’m not going to get into that right now, Rita.  I haven’t—I’m not in a position yet to ask a judge to sign subpoenas because there’s no action.  But once he’s indicted and there is an action, I’ll be able to have the judge sign subpoenas, and I do have a number of subpoenas that I am going to ask to be issued.

COSBY:  And do you know if he took the subway to work, as well?

O’DONNELL:  I’m not going to get into that right now, Rita.  I’m not 100 percent sure.

COSBY:  And do you know if he bought the Metro card that day?  Because that’s obviously—that’s something critical that would be very helpful to your client.

O’DONNELL:  Yes.  We’d already have that information, if he did.  He had that Metro card for a while.

COSBY:  He had it for some time prior to that?


COSBY:  And do you know, also, did he have a history of taking the Metro, too?  Is that something he routinely did?

O’DONNELL:  To be honest, Rita, you know, we really haven’t gotten into it that all that much.  You know, since (INAUDIBLE) probably—it looks like he’s going to be indicted tomorrow.  That’s when we’ll get our ball rolling concerning the investigation and everything that we need to do to protect my client’s rights.

COSBY:  And real quickly, I don’t know if you’ve had any contact—when you and I spoke, you hadn’t spoken to him today.  How is he holding up in general?  And is there any talk, now that this indictment, of any plea deal or anything?  Is there any talk of anything like that?

O’DONNELL:  No, there’s going to be no plea negotiations, as far as I’m concerned, and I don’t think the DA is looking to plead this case out, either.  DA has their job to do.  I respect the DA’s office.  (INAUDIBLE) has been an absolute gentleman with me.  He’s a professional.  And I expect him to do his job, just as I’m sure he expects me to do my job.

COSBY:  All right, Kevin, thank you very much.  (INAUDIBLE) a very busy day, Kevin O’Donnell, the attorney for Darryl Littlejohn.  Thank you very much for being with us, Kevin, we appreciate it.

And tomorrow, as you just heard, Darryl Littlejohn, a bouncer at The Falls bar, will appear in court on first-degree murder charges in the brutal death of Imette St. Guillen.

Let me now bring in former New York Police Department squad commander Joe Cardinale, and here with me in studio is former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt.

Clint, I think this was very significant, what we just heard...


COSBY:  ... subway—and we just heard from Kevin O’Donnell that he took the subway home.  You heard what I asked about surveillance cameras.


COSBY:  If you can prove that, that’s pretty strong.

VAN ZANDT:  Well, it’s going to be very strong.  You know, what the prosecution has right now, of course, he was seen in a bar with her.  The manager says he took her out.  He was arguing with her.  We got—we’ve got his DNA on the straps.  We’ve got his cell phone used in the area the body was dumped.  So that’s all—that’s—that’s a mountain that they’re going to have to climb.

But if they have—if he can come up with this picture that shows him, just like in the London subway, bombings, where they were able to place the bombers in the subway—if they can come up with him getting on that subway at 4:15 by himself, you know, prosecution’s got its work cut out for it then.

You know, we—you and I were talking earlier.  There was a straw poll in a New York paper today that said two thirds of the people who took that poll think there’s somebody else involved.  You know, there’s still this feeling in the city that he may not have...

COSBY:  Well, there’s a question...

VAN ZANDT:  ... have done it.

COSBY:  ... about the bar.  In fact, you know, let me bring in Joe because, Joe, you and I have also talked about this.  The bar—it still goes back—one thing I found, also, very significant that Kevin O’Donnell, the attorney for Darryl Littlejohn, was just telling us—this guy Kwan—because it was sort of written up that this was his closest buddy.  Someone in the papers was making it looked like he dressed up.  And as you just heard from Kevin O’Donnell, he said he’s talked to the guy, that Littlejohn was supposed to get in the car with him that day and go to Chicago, and instead went to work.  It paints a little bit of a different picture, huh, Joe.

JOE CARDINALE, FORMER NYPD SQUAD COMMANDER:  It’s a different picture, but you know, for him to also come out and say there’s nothing wrong with dressing up like a police officer—I mean, that’s ridiculous.  I mean, it’s criminal impersonation.

COSBY:  Right.  That is—that...


CARDINALE:  And it leads to other crimes that...

COSBY:  Exactly.

CARDINALE:  You know, and it leads to other crimes that are being investigated right now.  And as far as the subway—I mean, he just locked his client into a way home.

VAN ZANDT:  Absolutely.

CARDINALE:  Now, he has to prove that, all right?


CARDINALE:  He has to prove that.  And he just said—I mean, I find it weird that it’s a Metro card and it’s the last time he used that particular Metro card.  You know, he’s been trying this piece by piece as it’s presented in the media, you know?  And it’s awful funny how he comes across and he puts it on a local channel, rather than put it all over the world, you know, put it on cable, right?  But he puts it on the local channel.  And that’s not a knock to CBS or anybody else, but what is he doing here?  I think he’s appealing to local jurors from the juror pool, and he’s going local with it.

He comes across with this jailhouse interview, all of a sudden, instead of coming out—if that were me, you know what?  I didn’t do it, I’ll tell the whole world I didn’t do it.  I have nothing to hide.

COSBY:  And in fact, Joe, let me play the quote—in fact, if I can play the little clip again because I thought the reporter did a good job, asked him a lot of the key questions.  And in fact, in the question, he asked him, you know, Did you do this?  Did you have any role in this?  And I think we’re getting—do we have the sound bite?  We’re trying to (INAUDIBLE) OK, we’re going to get it in a second.  But I want to play that clip because I’m curious your reaction, and I’m also curious, Clint, your reaction because as an FBI profiler, especially...


COSBY:  ... I think it’s interesting.  Let’s listen to the clip, and I’m going to get both of you guys to respond.


LITTLEJOHN:  I’m a likely suspect because I have a criminal background and I wasn’t supposed to be at work.

WEINBERGER:  Did you kill Imette St. Guillen?

LITTLEJOHN:  No, I did not.


COSBY:  Joe, real quick, when you look at it, what’s your gut telling you?

CARDINALE:  My gut feeling is he’s a likely suspect for other reasons.  He’s a likely suspect because his blood was found.  And as was said earlier, his cell phone was used in that area.  I mean, he’s the last person to be seen with her, and yet, you know, he’s a likely suspect for other reasons?  I doubt it, all right?  He’s a likely suspect because he is the suspect, at this point.  And unless he can bring in other people—you know, it was said that maybe there’s other people involved.  You know what?  Now’s the time.  Come out.  You’re going to be charged tomorrow?  Tell your lawyer, You know, what?  This is what really happened.

COSBY:  And Clint, real quick.  You got five seconds.

VAN ZANDT:  Nothing better than to have an alibi you can shoot holes in.  So you know, tell us a phony story.  Let us go out and disprove you didn’t take that train home, and then you’ve locked yourself in.

COSBY:  And then...


COSBY:  And the flip side, if you’ve got a surveillance tape—it is New York City.  If there’s a surveillance tape and there’s some evidence, that’ll be fascinating to see if this turns up...


VAN ZANDT:  One way or the other, he has locked...

COSBY:  He’s locked in.

VAN ZANDT:  ... himself in.

CARDINALE:  That’s right.

COSBY:  All right, guys, both of you, thank you very much.

CARDINALE:  You’re welcome.

COSBY:  And legally, what happens next in this case?  We’ll talk about the subway.  We’ll talk about, Is there someone else involved?  Our panel of experts is going to join us right after the break.

Plus, missing in Milwaukee.  Two young boys disappear after playing outside.  Now their parents are urgently asking for you help in finding them.  They’re going to join us live after the break.


COSBY:  And tomorrow, Darryl Littlejohn, a bouncer at the Falls, will appear in court on first-degree murder charges.  Let’s bring in our legal panel of experts.  We have defense attorney Deb Opri, also sex crimes prosecutor Stacey Honowitz, and also criminal defense attorney Mickey Sherman. 

Deb, I’m going to just start with you.  I’m going to go off a little, of course, because we just heard this pretty important news from Kevin O’Donnell that he took the subway home.  I don’t know if you heard the interview, Deb, but I thought that was really important. 

It’s the first time we’ve heard he took the subway home.  He said he went home alone; it was an expired metro card.  He’s probably going to look and see if there’s surveillance tapes.  That’s pretty important.  It’s hard to abduct someone on a subway. 

DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  It’s very interesting strategy.  I’d like to know who encouraged him, whether it was his own idea to give a statement like that, whether his attorney encouraged him.  The strategy is very interesting, because usually the criminal defense attorneys will say you don’t speak about anything, because you will box yourself in. 


COSBY:  Although, Deb, in this case, it was the attorney who said it; it wasn’t in the interview.  He himself didn’t say it.  The attorney is saying this is what he said in the interview with us. 

OPRI:  But it’s boxed in.  And if there is a recording or video that he was getting on the subway, it’s one thing. 

The attorney has to knock out two key pieces of evidence, Rita.  The attorney has to knock out the blood on the strap, and the attorney has to knock out fibers from the carpet to the body. 

And from what I understand, if there are eyewitnesses that he was the last one seen with her alive, and a cell phone was used in the place where her body was found, these are big hurdles to overcome, like your earlier guest said.  However, if there could be reasonable doubt, present it, and there is that video of the subway, I really think he can have enough. 

I just caution the attorney to stop from boxing him in so much at this early game. 

COSBY:  You’re right; it does lock him into the theory.  You know, Stacey, one of the things is, you know, as Deb pointed out, there’s the DNA.  Do you believe that cops have a pretty strong case?  Is that the clincher? 

STACEY HONOWITZ, FL. SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR:  Well, everybody heard it.  I mean, the public was privy to hearing that that was the link between this suspect and the body, that his blood was found on the ties that bound her. 

So that is the crucial, most important piece of evidence.  And like Deb said, that is a big hurdle that they’re going to have to get through.  I think, though, we haven’t heard all of it.  We know we haven’t heard all of it.  There’s much more evidence that the grand jury got to hear.  And I think slowly but surely, maybe even in the press conference tomorrow, you’re going to get to hear what else this grand jury got to hear. 

COSBY:  Mickey, do you think we’ll be surprised to hear what else is out there? 

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Yes, but, I mean, we have to have heard the best already; it’s not going to get better than a jillion to one.  If, in fact, they have this blood, if they have the DNA, you know, case should be closed.  But I still don’t know why it took a week to get a jury to indict him. 

And regarding the press conference, I got to tell you.  As we saw from the, as the attorneys mentioned, the front of “The New York Post,” “We Got Him.”  This city has caught this man; they’ve convicted him.  I don’t know that he had a whole hell of a lot to lose by getting on camera today.  You know, unless he’s lying about being on the subway, and if he is, that could bite him in the rear end. 

COSBY:  You know, Deb, let me play—we’ve gotten a little bit of a glimpse of sort of what the defense will be, as we heard, or what it won’t be.  I want to show a quote.  This is from the interview that Littlejohn did with WCBS. 

He says, “It would be so easy to play the race thing or what have you, I’m not.  I’m the likely suspect because I have a criminal background, and I wasn’t supposed to be there working.” 

In other words, they’re not going to play the race card.  You also heard from the defense attorney they’re not going to go after Imette.  How can you go after this lovely girl who was such a horrible victim?  Not going to plead insanity, and they’re not going to plead, he just said to us.  What do you make of the defense, then?

OPRI:  The defense is going to be they’re going to challenge the DNA, they’re going to challenge the cell phone, they’re going to challenge—and this is the key—how this evidence was collected.  If they bring on the experts to say the police botched it from day one, you’re going to have a repeat of O.J. Simpson, the police screwed up.

COSBY:  Stacey, where do you see it headed?

HONOWITZ:  Well, I mean, absolutely.  I mean, what else are they going to try to challenge?  They have to challenge the biggest piece of evidence; that’s the DNA.  How they’re going to say—I’m assuming that, at some point, they’re going to try to say that maybe this evidence, this blood was planted. 

How did they get his blood on those binds?  That’s a huge hurdle to have to go through, to say that these cops planted stuff or it was tampered with.  So I’d like to see—that’s the only way that things can play out in this case, defense-wise. 

COSBY:  And, Mickey, what about somebody else playing some sort of role?  You know, as you just heard from Clint Van Zandt, the poll out there, a lot of people still think there’s something else, maybe something tied to the bar somehow. 

SHERMAN:  I mean, the only way some other persons’ going to help us, if he is the one, they’re not going to be trying and say that he worked in concert with somebody else; I just don’t buy that. 

And I’ve got to tell you, I love and admire his comment that he’s not going to play the race card.  And I imagine he’s going to say at every interview.  It’s like when Nixon ran against Kennedy for president, he would start every speech by saying, “A lot of people don’t think they should vote for a Roman Catholic because they think that the pope will run the country.  Put that out of your mind right now; that’s not an issue.” 

And that’s the same kind of saying it by saying it not.  It’s brilliant. 

COSBY:  So it may come back at some point.  All right, guys, thank you very much, all three of you. 

And now we’re going to go to another story now to a desperate search for two young boys in Milwaukee.  Twelve-year-old Quadrevion Henning, who’s also referred to as Dre, and also his 11-year-old friend, Purvis Parker, were last seen Sunday while playing outside. 

Milwaukee police have no leads in this case, and they’re asking for your help.  Russell Kirkpatrick from NBC affiliate WTMJ has all the details. 


RUSSELL KIRKPATRICK, NBC CORRESPONDENT, WTMJ (voice-over):  All day, Milwaukee police and other agencies have searched for the missing boys.  From Chopper 4, you can see what’s called a shoulder-to-shoulder search at Havenwood State Forest (ph).  Police also searched McGovern Park for clues. 

Crews were even called in to search the sewers after somebody discovered a manhole that didn’t have a cover. 

Purvis Parker and Quadrevion Henning have been missing since Sunday.  They were last seen on the way to this basketball court.  The police chief tells us her department will do what it takes to find the boys. 

CHIEF NANNETTE HEGERTY, MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT:  Right now, we have no substantial leads, nor have we had any evidence that there has been a crime committed.  We have two missing boys, and that’s what we have right now. 

KIRKPATRICK:  Besides Milwaukee police, the FBI, and a variety of other law enforcement agencies who are also helping in the search, school classmates have been questioned, along with neighbors and even sex offenders who live in the area.  But so far, no sign of the two boys. 


COSBY:  And that was Russ Kirkpatrick reporting from the NBC affiliate WTMJ.  And now let’s bring in the families of the missing boys. 

Joining us live is Quadrevion or “Dre” Henning’s father, Quentin Henning, and also Purvis Parker’s mother, Angela Virginia, with two beautiful pictures of the kids on your laps. 

Angela, how are you holding up through all of this? 

ANGELA VIRGINIA, PURVIS PARKER’S MOTHER:  From the grace of God, I’m doing pretty good. 

COSBY:  And, Quentin, what’s keeping you going?

QUENTIN HENNING, QUADREVION HENNING’S FATHER:  The fact that everybody is helping me to look for Quadrevion and little Purvis, all the support and help that we’re getting here in the city of Milwaukee. 

COSBY:  Yes, the support is beautiful, guys, and there’s a lot of people rooting for the return of your beautiful, little boys.  You know, Angela, what do you think may have happened to them? 

VIRGINIA:  My personal opinion, I feel like our boys got captured without they will.  I believe that.  I don’t know that for sure, but I’m holding on to some good thoughts that they’re to going return home soon. 

COSBY:  Did you see anything, Angela?  Have you heard any reports of anybody unusual in the area, or anything strange, or someone maybe who didn’t fit in that was there that day? 

VIRGINIA:  Well, the only thing that’s going on now is a lot of rumors, you know, a lot of he said-she said.  It’s no truth, you know, to none of that.  The only thing we heard right now is that, you know, they continue looking, doing the best they can. 

I just feel like, you know, they got captured against their will, and, you know, because all the search that’s going on, the whereabouts where the boys was at, things is not connecting.  And it’s only could be one result.  You know, they looked, and they looked, and I just—it’s just unquestionable.  It’s very unquestionable. 

COSBY:  Absolutely.

You know, Quentin, you’ve said that, you know, sort of the two-block radius.  Kind of describe to us—describe where the boys have just wandered off.  Do they know the area?  I know that they lived close by.  They were playing close by—just as we’re looking—just a few blocks away.  Would they have wandered off possibly somewhere else in the neighborhood? 

HENNING:  Ma’am, there is no doubt in my mind that they know of the area, but they don’t know the area well enough to wander off.  I’ve continued to say that they stay within the realm of their homes.  Both boys live in close proximity to each other, and that’s about as far as they would go on their own. 

COSBY:  And, you know, Quentin, when did you first get alarmed and find out that they were missing? 

HENNING:  I was alarmed immediately Monday morning, before the break of day, because it’s very uncharacteristic for Quadrevion to be out any time after dark or close to dark. 

COSBY:  You know, and, Angela, if someone is out there, has any clues, what do you want to say to the public tonight, as you’re looking for your beautiful, little boy and his friend? 

VIRGINIA:  I really want, you know, everyone, you know, that’s looking at this show tonight to be cautious, to be observant, look, don’t be scared to call in.  Just help us, please; help us bring our boys home. 

My family’s not complete without my son.  Quadrevion, I miss his face coming through my door, so I need him here.  His father need—his whole family need him here, as well.  So if anybody has anything to say or any clues or whatever, if you think it’s a little something, please call it in.  Please call. 

COSBY:  And, Quentin, real quick, is there something you want to say? 

HENNING:  I’d just like to add to what she’s saying, that we as a community need to come together, and help the police department, the online services, everybody that we can reach to help us to find both of these little boys. 

They’re 11 and 12 in age, but they’re just boys.  And they can’t make it on their own.  We need the help of adults, younger adults, anybody that can give us some kind of lead, some kind of clue, some kind of tip to call any law enforcement, somebody. 

COSBY:  And we are putting the number up on the screen, both of you.  And our prayers are with you.  Hope we talk with you with some good news very soon.  Both of you, thanks so much. 

And, everybody, we’re going to be right back. 


COSBY:  Debra LaFave may have publicly apologized for sleeping with her 14-year-old student, but is she really sorry and did she really apologize?  In a stunning move, all charges against the Florida teacher were dropped.  Now the woman who admitted to having sex with an underage boy is sentenced to only three years of house arrest.  Today, the mother of the victim says the ordeal has been horrible, and she just wants her family to move on. 


“SALLY,” VICTIM’S MOTHER:  It’s over, hopefully, for us and for our family, to the point that we can put it in the past and move on.  It’s been a very painful process.  It’s exhausting.  But, in the end, my son is doing really well now, and I’m very thankful for that, and that’s all that matters to me. 


COSBY:  And joining me now LIVE & DIRECT is Debra’s ex-husband, Owen LaFave. 

You know, Owen, do you think she got off easy? 

OWEN LAFAVE, EX-HUSBAND OF TEACHER WHO HAD SEX WITH STUDENT:  I think she did.  I think there’s a double-standard in this country.  She committed statutory rape, pled guilty.  If it was a man, she would have gone to jail.  And I think she should have some jail time.

COSBY:  Yes, what kind of jail time do you think she should see?  She could have gotten 10 years. 

LAFAVE:  And I think, you know, both you and I are in agreement.  I mean, something, 6 months, a year.  I mean, just some amount of jail time, I think, would have been sufficient, you know, in conjunction with psychiatric treatment, which, I mean, you know, that’s what she is getting. 

COSBY:  You know, she said, “OK, I have bipolar disorder.”  Did you ever mention that to you?  Did you ever see anything, even in your relationship, that she had problems? 

LAFAVE:  Yes, you know, I’ve openly said that, you know, she did have some emotional issues, and she, you know, dealt with an eating disorder, and depression from time to time.  But bipolar, I don’t know.  At the time, you know, when we dated and were married, you know, I had no indication that she was bipolar. 

COSBY:  You know, do you think she apologized?  I mean, she sort of, you know, said, look, I did, you know, a few things.  She even called it a bump in the road, which a lot of people took offense to.  And then she said, you know, it’s the media’s fault, it’s the so-and-so’s fault, it’s this fault, as opposed to, look, everything was me. 

LAFAVE:  Right, she never took responsibility for anything.  And, you know, I didn’t see any remorse from that.  And you’re absolutely right, Rita.  I mean, she did blame it on being bipolar.  She blamed it on the media. 

And, you know, she even said that, you know, her job was taken from her.  No, the fact that she had sex with a child is why she is no longer a teacher. 

COSBY:  You know, that’s the question.  I mean, do you think she really gets it? 

LAFAVE:  You know, I don’t think she gets it.  And, you know, back to your other comment, you know, it’s a bump in the road?  I think it’s a little more than a bump in the road. 

COSBY:  You know, she hasn’t apologized to you, from what I understand, publicly or privately.  How does that make you feel? 

LAFAVE:  You know, she hasn’t.  And, yes, I have mixed feelings about it.  I would like to get an apology, but, you know, I imagine the fact that, you know, I am talking out against her is probably part of the motivation why, you know, she hasn’t apologized. 

COSBY:  Do you think you’ll speak to her?  And, if you do, what would you say to her? 

LAFAVE:  You know, I doubt I’m going to speak to her again.  And, you know, I just wish her the best of luck.  She’s got a second chance.  She’s not going to jail, and I hope she makes the most out of it. 

COSBY:  All right, Owen LaFave, thank you very much.  We appreciate you being with us, Owen, as always. 

LAFAVE:  Thanks, Rita.

COSBY:  And I would love to have you back.  And I know you’ve got a documentary in the works.  I want to have you back on to talk about that.  Thanks so much. 

LAFAVE:  Sure thing.

COSBY:  And, everybody, there’s a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight.  Let’s check in, if we could, with Joe Scarborough now with a preview of “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”—Joe?

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Hey, thanks so much, Rita. 

As you know, “American Idol” is really a pop culture phenomenon, like very few TV shows in the past quarter-century.  But right now some are saying “American Idol” is on the brink, as Paula Adbul’s behavior gets more bizarre by the minute. 

Every single night she’s on, it seems she’s having more and more problems communicating with people in the audience.  Some people are talking about the possibility of alcoholism; others are just saying she’s a flake. 

We’ve got a reporter that’s got the inside story.  We’re going to be talking to him.  Also going to be talking about President Bush’s claim that the media is playing into the hands of terrorists in Iraq.  That and much more, straight ahead in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”

Now back to you, Rita.

COSBY:  And we’ll be watching in just about 10 minutes from now, Joe. 

Thank you very much. 

And still ahead, everybody, from behind the wheel to behind bars, how cops are using bait cars to lure criminals.  And why these vehicles may stop you and stop your car from being stolen. 


COSBY:  And “Caught by Cosby” tonight, car thieves taking the bait and being reeled in by cops.  All around the country, police departments are using tricked-out decoy vehicles rigged with video cameras and satellite tracking to lure in car thieves and catch them in the act.  The story now from NBC’s Don Teague. 


DON TEAGUE, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  What you’re watching is a car thief about to have a very bad day. 

He doesn’t know it yet, but the car he just stole is a trap set by the Dallas police department.  He’s already locked in; every turn he takes is being tracked by satellite.  Every move he makes is caught on hidden cameras, as police close in. 

Same with this guy and her.  They’re all just minutes away from being arrested. 

OFFICER NOEL RENDON, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT:  They think they got away, you know, scot-clean, and then all of a sudden they see the police behind them. 

TEAGUE:  Dallas police have arrested 97 people for trying to steal so-called bait cars since the vehicles were first put on the streets here 18 months ago.  Perhaps more importantly, auto thefts in the city have dropped by double digits as fear has spread among thieves that the next car they steal could be one of these. 

(on camera):  We’d like to show you the outside of one of the bait cars, but for obvious reasons police don’t want to you see what they look like.  Let’s just say they’re the kind of cars pros like to steal. 

(voice-over):  And police departments nationwide love the idea of letting the bad guys come to them, or at least their cars.  In Columbus, Ohio, they’ve even added a soundtrack. 

It’s all bad news for thieves, but a classic win-win for police and insurance companies, whose provide the bait cars, hundreds nationwide, for free. 

FRANK SCAFIDI, NATIONAL INSURANCE CRIME BUREAU:  Most of the companies that provide these car stand to lose lots of money in the coverage if these vehicles are stolen. 

TEAGUE:  Still, there’s a car stolen in the U.S. every 26 seconds or so, $7.5 billion worth of wheels gone in 60 seconds. 

SGT. MIKE COLEMAN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT:  Most thieves are opportunists.  If they see an opportunity, they’re going to take it.

RENDON:  Got a driver’s license and insurance card?

TEAGUE:  In Dallas, most thieves are still caught the hard way, by good, old-fashioned police work, but officers here are making the most of their new tool and having some laughs along the way, catching car thieves in the act.

Don Teague, NBC News, Dallas.


COSBY:  Incredible stuff.  And still ahead on LIVE & DIRECT, the amazing story of a missing woman who claims she was held hostage for more than a decade.  Stay with us.


COSBY:  And tonight, an amazing story of a woman who turned up alive and well, claiming she had been held hostage for 10 years.  Tanya Kach was last seen February 1996 when she was just 14 years old.  Tuesday, Kach walked into a convenience store and revealed her true identity to the owner, who had known her as Nicky Evans. 

Kach claims a local school security guard held her captive inside his house for 10 years.  She says he did not sexually abuse her, but brainwashed her into thinking her family no longer wanted her. 


TANYA KACH, MISSING FOR 10 YEARS:  There were times that I would threaten to leave, and there were times he threatened to kill me.  I didn’t want to be on the streets, because I thought that’s where I’d be.  I didn’t think I had a home.  And that that was my home, and that was my life. 


COSBY:  And Tanya is now back with her family, and police are now questioning a person of interest in the case.  So far, no charges have been filed. 

And also, everybody, new developments now in tonight’s big story.  An indictment in the Imette St. Guillen murder investigation.  There will be a news conference, as we said earlier this show, tomorrow morning here in New York, announcing the murder charges against ex-con bouncer Darryl Littlejohn.

I will also be inside the courtroom watching all the legal action firsthand.  His arraignment’s going to take place, as Littlejohn faces a first-degree murder charge. 

We’re going to bring you all the latest developments in this case tomorrow night, right here on LIVE & DIRECT.  Be sure to tune in for that.

And that does it for me tonight, everybody.  I’m Rita Cosby.  Joe Scarborough and “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now.

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