'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for March 29

Guest: J.D. Hayworth; Julia Renfro; Fred Golba; Dave Holloway; Clint Van

Zandt; Donna Gregory; Doris Greer; Daphne Barak; Roy Villareal; Maxine


RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  The Duke University gang rape investigation.  Tonight, why the 911 calls may be fanning the flames of protesters calling this a race-based crime.  And our LIVE AND DIRECT investigation captures exclusive video of people sneaking across the border as the fight over illegal immigrants hits an all-time high.

But first tonight, a new search for missing Alabama teen Natalee Holloway is happening right now.  A team of Dutch investigators is now in Aruba along with their cadaver dogs after police got a much-talked-about tip from a potential witness.  That person says they may know where Natalee is buried.  The team is already searching the sand dunes, but that is only the beginning.

Meanwhile, Dutch TV is giving new attention to the Holloway case.  In a bizarre twist, a show a lot like “America's Most Wanted” will recreate the night that Natalee vanished and will put that show on Dutch and Aruban airwaves on April 11.  Investigators say tips from the program could break the case.

Live on the phone right now from Aruba is Julia Renfro with the “Aruba Today” newspaper.  Julia, where is the search going on at this moment?

JULIA RENFRO, “ARUBA TODAY”:  Well, today there was quite a bit of activity up by the lighthouse, just north of the lighthouse, on the sand dunes.  This is an area that's always been a place of interest.  And as you mentioned, just recently, there was a tip that came in that pointed in this direction.

COSBY:  How credible—and where is sort of the source of this tip? 

What have you heard, Julia, is the nature of it?

RENFRO:  Well, you know, we don't actually know who the person is that came forward, but we are under the impression that several people have pointed in this direction, as well as given other very important information regarding to what happened to Natalee that evening.

COSBY:  Do we have any idea—you know, we're hearing in Dompig, the chief's interview, Julia, that someone called a bar manager.  Then there was some word it might be a cab driver.  Do we know what type of people are coming forward with these tips?

RENFRO:  Well, this is two separate tips, although they're both related to the same incident, which would be the burial of Natalee in the sand dunes.

COSBY:  You know, the other thing we're hearing is this Dutch TV program is going to recreate the night that Natalee vanished.  What can you tell us about the show?  And what's the goal of this?

RENFRO:  Well, just like there's been many programs, just like yours, that have come to Aruba who have approached many individuals, and this Dutch program apparently approached the prosecution with a—you know, basically, a helpful show.  What they're planning on doing is recreating what happened to Natalee, or at least the whereabouts of Natalee on the night she disappeared, as well as Joran and the other suspects.  And it's my understanding that they actually have the outfits that the individuals were wearing, which could, you know, possibly stir an emotion or spark some kind of, you know, memory for someone that maybe had seen one of Joran's shoes or Natalee's outfit or maybe even her flip-flops.  So I believe that that's the goal in the show.

COSBY:  Interesting concept.  Julia, thank you very much.

And joining me now is someone who just returned from Aruba after searching for Natalee, Fred Golba.  He's a searcher for Childwatch Canine.  Fred, this area that they're searching, you know it well.  How complex? 

And do you think they'll find anything?

FRED GOLBA, CHILDWATCH CANINE SEARCH:  Well, there is quite a bit of an area out there in that sand dune.  That's the sand dune that I had searched with Aruba search and rescue back the second week in August.  And that dune has changed considerably from August until this trip here that I just made.  It is totally changed out there, compared to what we had done.  The area that we had searched has actually been blown away.

And what I think they're doing is the other side of the dune, a little farther north and east from where we originally searched.  And there is quite a bit of area out there, but from what I understand is they have a defined area to search.  And you know, they got the ground-penetrating radar with two dogs and the aerating technique, which if they get into the right area, I'm sure that the Dutch will find her, if she is out there.

COSBY:  Do you believe she's out there?  What's the sense you're getting, Fred?  Because you were on the ground there just recently.  Do you think they believe these tips, or are they grasping for straws?

GOLBA:  You know, what story to believe, I don't know.  But I do think and I do believe that they think that she is out there, due to this tip.  You know, they went out there frantically searching themselves with probes, you know, trying the technique, which you need to do it a few times to get good at it.  And that's why they wanted the Dutch to come back in and they allowed me to come back in, because the aerating technique is the same that the Dutch is using now.  And you can feel the areas under the sand with the probes.  And honestly, to me, the probing technique and the dogs are more thorough than any machinery.  Ground-penetrating radar is good.

COSBY:  You know, real quick, Fred, you talked about the dogs.  You also talked about the wind.  I was down there, and it was so windy.  Real quickly, I mean, do you think that the dogs are still going to be able to pick up a scent after all this time, given the climate, too?

GOLBA:  Well, the dog isn't the miracle tool out there, it's the combination between the aerating, the dogs and the ground-penetrating radar.  That's where the radar comes in, is, you know, if the radar picks something up, then you can probe it, put holes in it, and then, hopefully, you can puncture it and the dogs will hit on it.  If the dogs hit on it, then you got a very highly likely area and—to, you know, dig up, and you know, confirm what is under there.  If the dogs hit on it, it's probably a for sure hit.

COSBY:  Well, Fred, thank you very much.  We appreciate all the hard work you're doing there.

And joining me now is Natalee's father, Dave Holloway.  Dave, what's your take on this latest search?  Are you optimistic at all?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FATHER:  You know, we've been optimistic all along.  You know, a lot of these leads and tips have always put us on a roller-coaster ride.  And I'm just cautiously optimistic that, you know, they'll come up with something.  But there again, I don't want to get my hopes up high because we've been disappointed in the past.

COSBY:  And you know, Dave, too, they've searched this area before.  Do you think—it sounds like they're bringing in what Fred was just saying, a little more sophisticated equipment.  Is there a possibility something could be there this time?

HOLLOWAY:  You know, Dompig had indicated, you know, that he had a credible witness that indicated that she may be up there.  You know, that was three or four months ago.  And the delay I really don't understand.  But now they've brought the Dutch in, you know, it makes me wonder if this is just a dog and pony show.  But there again, I am grateful that they are searching.

COSBY:  You know, Dave, you've hit on the exact point.  You know, here it's been 10 months.  And to get this tip three, four months ago—it's been 10 months since she's been missing—you know, how frustrating is it for you?  You hear all these words—credible tip, substantial tip.  We've heard it ourselves.  And yet it's taken them this long to finally go back to the dunes.

HOLLOWAY:  Yes, we've heard that over and over and over again.  And you know, that's what, you know, I'm perplexed by, is why have they waited three months to search the dunes?  You know, we'll know the answers within three or four days.  We'll know if Dompig really had a witness or if it was credible or not.  And then he'll be, hopefully, held accountable for his actions.

COSBY:  You know, are you surprised, too, Dave—we all thought—and in fact, you and I even talked about this—that it was going to basically happen around April 11, maybe April 12.  It came more than a week early.  What do you make of that?

HOLLOWAY:  You know, I don't know.  That's highly coincidental that Fred left the island when he did, and all of a sudden, the Dutch showed up.  So you know, they may have something, they may not.  You know, we just don't know, and they're not going to tell us.

COSBY:  You know, I got to ask you about this recreation that's going to be on Dutch TV.  It's going to air on Dutch television and also Aruba television in hopes of maybe triggering someone's memory.  But someone's actually going to be wearing, you know, the clothes that Natalee was wearing.  Someone's wearing the clothes that Joran was wearing, and the Kalpoe brothers.  How do you feel about that?  Is that a little uncomfortable for you, the thought of that happening?

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I'm not going to look at that part, but I'm hopeful that this entity is similar to “America's Most Wanted” and that they'll really do a search and not just put on a TV show.  You know, I've already given them a lot of information, and I've done a lot of research on their entity, and they have a supposed 33 percent success ratio.  So you know, maybe the some of the Arubans will feel comfortable and maybe some of the people who fled to Holland—some of those individuals may know something or hearsay.  They may be more comfortable with providing more tips or clues to this entity, rather than an American entity.

COSBY:  Well, let's—we will take any clues we can get.  And I know you will, too, Dave.  Thank you so much.

HOLLOWAY:  Thanks.

COSBY:  And just how important is the latest search to the investigation?  What about this TV show?  Could it trigger some memories?  Joining me now is former FBI profiler and MSNBC analyst, our friend, Clint Van Zandt.  Clint, what do you make of this?  This is sort of the Dutch version—and you just heard from Dave.  He said that they have, what, a 33 percent success rate.  You know, “America's Most Wanted” has a pretty good success rate.  Could this trigger someone's memory after all these months?

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER, MSNBC ANALYST:  Well, I guess the reality is, is it could.  You know, we all want this case solved, Rita, but I think Dave hit on it.  This is going to be a cadaver dog and pony show.  I think what we're seeing is the Aruban police and the Dutch authorities saying, We've got nowhere to go, nowhere to run to, nowhere to turn to.  And you know, in January, when this tip came up, the FBI said, Give us a little more information to show us this is worthwhile, we'll bring dogs, we'll bring ground-penetrating radar.  And the Arubans didn't come up with what the bureau needed.  So here we are now, months later, going through this again.

I think—you know, first of all, I hope they find whatever they're looking for.  Number two, if they don't, I think that this is the last show.  I think this is where the Arubans say, What else can we do?  We've tried it all.  And I think they're finished with it.

COSBY:  You know, and we had on the show—in fact, you and I talked about this, Clint.  We had David Kock, who's the attorney for Satish and Deepak, saying he was hearing they were wrapping it up and then putting it to trial, and at that point, basically, saying, Look, there's nothing there, at this point.  You know, separately, if—and of course, we're all praying that there is some clues, especially for Dave and Beth...

VAN ZANDT:  Absolutely.

COSBY:  ... who have just been so desperately waiting for any answers on this, as any family would be.  How valuable would that information be, if they find anything after all this time?

VAN ZANDT:  Sure.  It would.  Well, you know, to find anything, number one, even though I think it's a four-letter word, closure for Beth and Dave and their family, to at least have that resolved, not all these wild ideas that she's been carried away and she's in some sheikh's harem or something like that.  You know, let's get past that.  Let's get back to the reality.  Then, if they find something, they'll be able to identify, let's say, whatever is left, the remains.  They will be able to do DNA, match that up between Natalee's mother and Natalee, say it's her, and see if there's any physical evidence to suggest cause of death.

COSBY:  All right, Clint.  Thank you very much.  I know we'll be talking a lot in the coming days, my friend.  Thank you.

And still ahead, everybody: Many believe the deaths of Princess Diana and her boyfriend, Dodi al-Fayed, were no accident.  Now Dodi's father, Mohamed, is speaking out, and we're the first ones to show you the surprising things he is saying.  And that's not all we have on tap tonight.

Still ahead, the Duke University lacrosse team captain declares their innocence as 911 calls add fuel to the firestorm over allegations of gang rape.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  ... the white guy by the Duke wall, and he just hollered out (DELETED) to me.


COSBY:  Now alleged racial slurs from a lacrosse player's house have everyone on edge.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Everyone, obviously, is pretty outraged.


COSBY:  We'll take you to the protests, live.

And a LIVE AND DIRECT investigation, exclusive pictures of foreigners caught in the act, trying to sneak across the U.S.-Mexican border.  We went to the front lines to show you the battle over illegal immigrants.

Plus, more of my exclusive interview with the president of Mexico, as the border battle hits its boiling point.  That and a whole lot more coming up.



911 OPERATOR:  What's the problem?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  The problem is—it's a lady in somebody else's car, and she would not get out of the car.  She's, like—she's, like, intoxicated, drunk or something.  She's—I mean, she won't get out of the car, period.


COSBY:  And that was a 911 call, some of the few calls that were describing the woman who now says she was gang raped by members of the Duke University lacrosse team.  The alleged rape has sparked outrage across the campus and also the city of Durham, North Carolina.  Now the team captains are vigorously denying the assault, saying, quote, “Any allegation that a sexual assault occurred is totally and transparently false.”

Joining me now with all the late-breaking developments is NBC's Donna Gregory, who's at a rally taking place right now.  Donna, there seems to be a lot of outrage down there, right?

DONNA GREGORY, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  There is, Rita.  In fact, it might be difficult for the viewers to see the rally behind me.  We were asked to move our cameras away from this Take Back the Night rally, where people actually walk across campus with candles to take back the night against sexual violence.  They asked us to move the cameras because survivors are telling their stories.  So we respectfully did that.  So this is part of Sexual Assault Prevention Week here on the Duke campus, and it comes, as you mentioned, as those 911 tapes in this alleged gang rape have been released.

Now, that gang rape that was alleged to have happened at a house that was rented by captains of the Duke lacrosse team—was said to have happened on March 13, where an African-American exotic dancer claims she was raped in a bathroom by three men at the party.  Now, keep in mind, most of the lacrosse team are white males.  Forty-six of those have been asked to submit DNA samples.  All of them did.  But again, they have denied any wrongdoing in this case in terms of any type of sexual activity at that house.

There was also another 911 call that was made from a woman passing by the house the same night of the party.  Here's a portion of that call.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I was driving down near Duke's campus, and it's me and my black girlfriend.  And the guy—there's, like, a white guy by the Duke wall, and he just hollered out (DELETED) to me.  And I'm just so angry.  I didn't know who to call!  They didn't harm me in any way, but I just feel so completely offended, I can't even believe it!


GREGORY:  Well, in response to a question about that call, Duke

University president Richard Brodhead had this to say.  “It is disgusting”

·         this is his quote—“Racism and its hateful language have no place in this community.  I am sorry the woman and her friend were subjected to such abuse.”

And Rita, several students on campus we spoke with today said that racism has been a problem here on campus.  They do agree that the team should—the season should have been suspended while this investigation is under way.  Back to you.

COSBY:  Donna, thank you very much.

And joining me now on the phone is the grandmother of one of the players on the lacrosse team, Doris Greer.  Mrs. Greer, when did you talk to your grandson, and what did he tell you about these allegations?

DORIS GREER, ZACHARY GREER'S GRANDMOTHER:  I talked to Zachary today about noon hour.

COSBY:  And what did he say to you?

GREER:  He said, I just wanted to let you know before you were talking to someone else, in case you had heard it somewhere.  And he said there was -- I wanted you to know that I had nothing to do with anything.  But he didn't tell me what happened.

COSBY:  And when did you find out what happened, and what was your reaction?

GREER:  Well, I did hear it from—oh, what was his—Adrian (ph). 

I did hear it from Adrian.  And well, I felt very badly for the girls.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And Adrian's of course our producer, who was talking with you on the phone.

GREER:  Yes, he was.

COSBY:  You know, how shocked are you to hear these allegations that may involve some of your grandson's friends?

GREER:  Well, it is a bit shocking, all right.  We don't like to hear about this kind of thing going on in a school, and especially girls.  You know, we don't like to see this kind of thing happening to girls.

COSBY:  Did he believe that it happened?  Did he believe that any of his friends may have been connected?

GREER:  Well, really, I didn't talk to him personally.  He left me a message.  I wasn't home.

COSBY:  All right.  Well, we thank you very much, Mrs. Greer.  And please keep us posted, whatever you hear.

And now we want to move to another story that continues to spark a lot of controversy.  Tonight, there are stunning new revelations about the late Princess Diana and her boyfriend, Dodi al-Fayed, that we're hearing now for the first time.  Speaking out in a rare bombshell interview, Dodi's billionaire father, Mohamed al-Fayed, says their deadly crash inside a Paris tunnel was actually a royal conspiracy.


MOHAMED AL-FAYED, DODI AL-FAYED'S FATHER:  May God help that the truth will come out that Nazi (DELETED) will have committed such a crime is Prince Philip.  It is, you know, 100 percent I'm sure.  And I'm sure Scotland Yard and Lord Stephenson (ph) know very well by putting everything together.


COSBY:  And joining us now with more details is Daphne Barak.  She's the international interviewer who sat down exclusively with Mohammed al-Fayed.  It's a great interview.


COSBY:  And it's fascination.  And does he believe that it was a staged event, all of it?

BARAK:  He absolutely believes in it.  And interview, if you look at the text, it is shocking because he says that Prince Philip actually murdered Diana.  He said the queen is nobody.  He says Camilla looks like a donkey and a crocodile.  Immunity, I didn't believe my own eyes when I watched it afterwards.  But he is so convinced in it that he is not going to let go.

COSBY:  And in fact, let's play another little clip where he talks about, of course, Prince Philip, who, of course, is Prince Charles's father.  Let's play a little clip of that.


AL-FAYED:  You think he will accept my son who's different nationality, maybe naturally tan (ph), to be the stepfather of the future king?  It's out of the question.  It's black and white.


COSBY:  And you know, Daphne, he knows that, of course, you know, the royal family is not happy with this, but he has maintained this course for years.

BARAK:  He is not going to let go.  I asked him, And what if Lord Stephenson, who is in charge of the investigation, that tat's the reason he's breaking his silence—is turning every unturned stone and comes with the conclusion that it was an accident?  No way.  Lord Stephenson's already told me it's not going to be that conclusion.  It's not going to be a conclusion that it was an accident, which basically got him into a lot of hot water.  And these tapes were actually asked—actually were almost subpoenaed by the Scotland Yard, but we gave it voluntarily.

COSBY:  Interest.  And in fact, he also talks about the letters.  We always heard about these letters that Diana wrote, where she predicted that something was going to happen.  Let's play that clip, too, as well.


AL-FAYED:  What have Diana said in her letters, you know, that she is certain and she knows that she is going to die one day in a car accident, you know?  It's black and white.  And Charles will do this plot.  And I'm sure Charles don't have the power.  His father is the person to really excuse such a horrendous crime.


COSBY:  Does he think that Diana—as we're looking at some pictures of her here—could have known that there was sort of this conspiracy possibly against her, which is the allegation, of course?

BARAK:  He says Diana told him that she was scared all the time.  But there's a big problem with Mohamed's theory because he says Diana was murdered because she was dating a Muslim, his son.  She was dating Dodi only for six weeks—actually, 10 days out of six weeks.  Diana was dating Dr. Hosnas Khan (ph), who is a Muslim, for two years.  She actually started to date Dodi only because Hosnas left her.  Hosnas has never spoken.  So that's a big problem for Mohamed.  And the Scotland Yard has spoken to Hosnas.

COSBY:  And real quick, does he think that she was pregnant?

BARAK:  Yes.  I mean, towards the end, I was (INAUDIBLE) with Mohamed was to tell me, and you know, Was it a boy, was it a girl?  It was week (ph).  It was (INAUDIBLE) I mean, you could see that he's trying.  He says she was pregnant.  He say she and Dodi called him.  The French report, which is about to be submitted to the high court in England on next Thursday, April 6, says for sure that she was not pregnant.  Scotland Yard is investigating this theory.  And there's another theory that if she was pregnant, it wasn't Dodi and she was ninth (ph) week pregnant.

COSBY:  And that's a whole other topic, too.  And he also talks about the sons.  He talks about Diana's sons. Let's play that.


AL-FAYED:  They've been inseparable (ph) with their mother.  You see, they stayed two weeks with me at my house in (INAUDIBLE) France.  They sleep with her in the same bed.  They eat with her.  They love all the time.  Very, very close, you know?  How can you think this—they will come over it?  (INAUDIBLE) they'll be happy at the end to know that their grandfather (INAUDIBLE) and a gangster have killed their mother.


COSBY:  He doesn't hold back on anything.  Real quick.  Lord Stephenson—you talked about the report.  Where do you see it going?  Real fast.

BARAK:  It's not going to be soon.  It's not expected before the end of the year.  From my meeting with Scotland Yard—I did meet with them in London last week, and I'm not going to say what they said, but my feeling they would come, No, Mohamed, I'm sorry, it was an accident.

COSBY:  He's going to be (INAUDIBLE) some more, then, Daphne.  Thank you.  Great interview.  Thank you for sharing it with us.

BARAK:  Thank you, Rita.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

And still ahead, everybody, a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive, people sneaking across the border into the U.S.  We have come just back from the border, and our cameras have captured the illegal action firsthand.  Wait until you see who's trying to come into America.  That's coming up.


COSBY:  And tonight, we have some incredible pictures to show you as we continue our special series on the contentious battle over America's borders.  On the eve of a crucial summit between the U.S. and Mexico, the debate over how to secure our borders is more heated than ever.  LIVE AND DIRECT went to one of the most treacherous spots along the border to see what agents there are doing to stop potentially deadly criminals, including terrorists, from sneaking into our country.


COSBY (voice-over):  Yuma, Arizona, may look like any other sleepy American farming community, but take a closer look at these crop fields and tranquil waterways and you'll soon realize this place is anything but sleepy.  Sitting right on the borders of Arizona, Mexico and California, many view Yuma as ground zero for America's war on terrorism, the fight for domestic security and against illegal immigration.  It's also one of the most dangerous places in America.

ROY VILLAREAL, ASSISTANT CHIEF PATROL AGENT:  As we have gained operational control here in Yuma sector, the level of violence directed at our agents has increased.  Smugglers becoming frustrated as we're able to - - to shut off their entry points, causing them to react to our enforcement strategy.  They have reacted with violence.

VILLAREAL:  This includes shooting at officers, throwing rocks at our offices, driving their vehicles and ramming into our officers. 

For officers, performing their jobs comes with the reality that they face being injured, in some cases and very unfortunately possibly killed doing their jobs. 

COSBY:  We got extraordinary access following the U.S. Border Patrol in Yuma.  The brave 800 men and women tasked with securing probably the most volatile 125 miles of border territory in America. 

VILLAREAL:  Our principal goal is preventing weapons of mass destruction and terrorists from entering our country.  Along with that comes with the aspect of smuggling, both humans and narcotics. 

COSBY:  Believe it or not, agents in Yuma apprehended more than 138,000 illegal immigrants, drug smugglers, and foreign nationals trying to infiltrate our border last year alone. 

What U.S. border agent Michael Gramly (ph) showed our crew, in just 48 hours, was quite shocking.  A busload of over 40 illegal immigrants caught just moments ago in the desert arrives via bus at the Yuma border detention center, where they're searched for weapons and narcotics.  Among them, this man. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  That subject has been identified as an alien smuggler, and he is going to be set up for prosecution. 

This facility is basically designed to hold approximately 500 subjects until they can be processed.  You can see it's pretty full today.  These are all people that were apprehended today.  You can see numerous subjects in here waiting to be processed, fingerprinted, so that they can be either returned to Mexico or identified as criminal aliens and set up for prosecution. 

COSBY:  On this busy day, it's not only young men being apprehended but young children, women, and entire families.  Most jump the border fence in search of a better life. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  What we're seeing right now is we're averaging between 400 and 600, sometimes 800 apprehensions, just at Yuma station per day. 

After an agent makes an apprehension in the field, they fill out a one-page biographical data sheet for that subject, and that subject is then brought here to Yuma station to be processed. 

Part of that processing procedure is taking their fingerprints.  All

10 fingerprints are entered into databases.  The IATHA (ph) system will

reference their fingerprints with those of known criminals who have been

arrested in the United States. 

The system assists us in identifying people who have prior criminal convictions or apprehensions in the United States.  We can then set them up for processing, either removal proceedings, formal deportation, or actual prosecution.  They've got serious criminal convictions. 

COSBY:  Ten percent of the people detained end up having some sort of criminal warrant.  The vast majority are loaded back onto a bus and sent back to Mexico, disappointed they got caught and desperate to do almost anything to try again. 

Only 20 yards from Yuma's major point of entry, Agent Gramly (ph) is alerted to a group of 15 Mexicans entering U.S. territory from the Colorado River on makeshift boats. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Hey, (INAUDIBLE) vaminos, let's go!  They all just went in the water.  You see them going in the water right there?  The group is going into the water right now between the raft and the next to agent that was further north.  

COSBY:  Several attempts at encouraging the men to return to Mexico are fruitless.  But agents won't risk their own safety by jumping in the water, and the Mexicans know it. 

That is, until one of the men gives up, tired and cold from the long journey. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I asked him how many people were in his group.  He said about 10, although we counted more like 15.  So we'll continue following the group north on the river here until they get cold and tired and decide to give up. 

COSBY:  Later, night falls as smugglers lurk in the cover of darkness. 

Our crew is dispatched in the crop field where some activity is reported. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I can get you into that trio there that's just outside your passenger vehicle. 

COSBY:  Three illegal immigrants on the loose. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It looks like there was a trail coming up that just kind of ended here.  I mean, looks like something walked along here. 

I got bodies.  Hey, guys, over here.  I got bodies. 

We got this group of five.  It's 10:15.  Yes, I don't have a cage, so you want to walk them to yours?  You might want to load them, and I'll search them up, once you get them secured. 

When we're this close to the border, we have to be real careful about subjects who are going to run, or resist, or possibly make a run for it back to Mexico.  So the quicker we can get them secured, and then take them to a safer location, and then do a more thorough search of them, but we did pat them down for weapons. 


COSBY:  Incredible stuff.  And still ahead, what can Congress do to affect illegal immigration?  And a sneak peak at what the president of Mexico is going to tell President Bush in a matter of hours. 


VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO:  ... a problem which represents a joint responsibility, because as long as there is demand, there will be supply.



COSBY:  And you are looking at pictures that we just got in of President Bush arriving in Cancun, Mexico, just a short time ago.  Tomorrow, he expected to meet with Mexico's president, Vicente Fox, for a major summit on the hot-button topic of immigration.  And everybody is watching this. 

This meeting comes as the debate over America's immigration policy is spilling into our streets, with the dramatic protests continuing in a lot of the major cities across our country. 

Joining us now to discuss this border battle is Republican Congressman JD Hayworth of Arizona.  He's got a new book out on immigration.  It is called, “Whatever it Takes.”  And also joining us is Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California. 

Congressman, let me start with you.  You know, we just saw those dramatic pictures that our producer, Darren Mackoff, showed us of what's going on, on your border there.  Do you think an immigration agreement is going to have any effect? 

REP. JD HAYWORTH ®, ARIZONA:  No, I don't, sadly.  I think, unless the United States moves to a policy of enforcement first and actually puts up physical barriers, not only on our southern border with Mexico, but, quite frankly, on our Canadian border, as well, we'll continue to have this threat and this problem. 

You see the scenes from the Colorado River.  I think back a few years ago when one of our Border Patrol agents drowned in the Colorado River pursuing Chinese illegals.  And that's something we have to stress here.

It makes no difference if the illegals are from Mexico or Mauritania, from Ireland or from Iceland, from Indonesia, from Chile, from any country in the world, if you are here illegally, that needs to stop.  And we have to do this, both as a matter of national security and ultimately as a matter of economic security.

COSBY:  You know, in fact, Congresswoman, 10 percent—we were showing on our piece -- 10 percent actually have a criminal warrant out for themselves that they've, you know, done something pretty significant.  Again, it doesn't matter what country they're coming from.

Don't you think we need to beef up security, particularly, so we don't get that type of element in our country? 

HAYWORTH:  Absolutely, we have... 

COSBY:  Let me get the Congresswoman in.  Let me get the Congresswoman in. 

HAYWORTH:  Oh, yes, certainly.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA:  Absolutely.  I think we all agree that we must have stronger border controls.  I don't think there is any disagreement among any of the members of Congress. 

We want to use new technology.  We want to encourage Mexico to help out on their side.  We want to do whatever can be done, more border agents, do whatever can be done to strengthen that border, to control that border.  There's no disagreement on that at all in Congress. 

COSBY:  In fact, both of you, hold on, because in my exclusive interview with the Mexican president, I asked him what his country is doing to stop the flow, not just of aliens, but also of illegal drugs into this country.  Here's what he told me. 


FOX:  ... which represents a joint responsibility, because, as long as there is demand, there will be supply.  And that supply is not even produced in Mexico; it's produced in South America. 

COSBY:  But a huge portion's coming through Mexico. 

FOX:  Yes, but if we wouldn't have—if they wouldn't have this huge market in the United States, where they raised all this incredible amounts of money, dollars that are used to bribe Mexican officials or Mexican policeman.  So what I'm saying is joint responsibility, that we both have to work. 


COSBY:  You know, Congressman, some of these drug statistics are staggering.  And I've just learned it right before we were doing the interview.  I was amazed:  70 to 90 percent of the U.S. cocaine actually passes through Mexico.  It's also the main source, of course, of marijuana.  And also supplies 30 percent of the U.S. heroin market. 

I mean, when you look at these numbers, Congressman, how concerned are you? 

HAYWORTH:  I'm very concerned.  I'm also concerned about the fact that the Mexican special forces, their drug police, many of them crossed over to the dark side, are now in the employ of the narcoterrorists. 

And to have the Mexican foreign minister, Luis Ernesto Derbez, basically deny that the Mexican military is involved in incursions into the United States, most celebrated down, I believe, in Hudspeth County, Texas, a few weeks ago, to have his suggest that they were Americans impersonating Mexican officials, I think, defies description. 

There is joint responsibility, but the sad fact is Mexico has been a willing accomplice in supplying the United States with illegal workers where there may also be some sort of demand for cheap labor.  But the fact is the Mexican government has yet to step up, as it should.  And President Bush should remind President Fox of that tomorrow as they meet in Cancun. 

COSBY:  Congresswoman Waters, what should President Bush say to President Fox when he sees him face to face? 

WATERS:  Well, the president should be very tough on drugs, and drug-dealing, and drug-trafficking.  We provide resources to other countries oftentimes, in the Caribbean and other places, to deal with drug dealers and drug traffickers. 

And I think that we should make it very clear to the president of Mexico that we will not tolerate the influx of illegal drugs into our country, that we are going to be tough on this side and he must be tough on that side.  But most people coming across the border are not drug dealers. 

COSBY:  All right, both of you, stick with us.  We're going to have much more with our two guests right after the break. 


COSBY:  And as we're looking at pictures of some of the protests this week, we are talking about the battle over America's borders with Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California and also Republican Congressman JD Hayworth of Arizona, who's got a new book out immigration called “Whatever it Takes.”

Congressman, as we're looking at these shots, you know, just massive people coming out, is one of the solutions the U.S. military on the side of the border? 

HAYWORTH:  Oh, yes.  The U.S. military should be utilized on the border, and the technology that we have available, as the book's title says, “Whatever it Takes.” 

But as we see scenes of this protest, I think it's important to document what these protests were not.  They were not revisiting the 1960s, because these were not lawful citizens in pursuit of their rights.  These are non-citizens, in many cases, asking for special rights. 

And that is the fundamental problem.  That is why we should pursue a policy of enforcement first to make sure our laws are enforced to close existing loopholes, to have interior enforcement against employers who willingly and knowingly hire illegals, and also have the aforementioned border enforcement, including our military. 

COSBY:  While we're talking about enforcement, both of you, hold on, because I asked the Mexican president about corruption, not in the U.S.  military, but the Mexican military.  And I also asked him whether he thinks that they can be trusted with stopping crime along their side of the border. 

This is what he told us. 


FOX:  ... this corruption comes from driving from all this money that comes in.  But with working hard, let me tell you that we have more than forty leaders of cartels in jail.  And which, by the way, now we have an approval of the Supreme Court in Mexico that we can extradite them to face U.S. justice.  And this we will do.

But number two, we have more than 57,000 members of different drug cartels that are in jail in Mexico.  So we're working hard. 

COSBY:  But are you saying that the Mexican in military is clean, that they're not corrupt? 

FOX:  Well, as an institution?  I'm absolutely clear that it's a guarantee, Mexican army.  But there might be exceptions, somebody that disappoints and doesn't comply.  Yes, it exists, but it's minimal. 


COSBY:  Congresswoman Waters, how do we monitor and make sure that things are being enforced on both sides? 

WATERS:  Well, I hope the president—our president will talk with the president in Mexico about strengthening their ability to deal with the border crossings from that side. 

I don't agree with the military being used.  The military's trained to kill, and I don't think we're talking about killing people. 

What we're really talking about is dealing with the problem of securing the border, which we all agree to, and what to do about the 11 million illegal, undocumented immigrants that are here in the United States. 

We're going to end up, I believe, with some kind of a guest program. 

We're going to end up a way to have earned legalization for the 11 million. 

We will develop some kind of criteria. 

I would also like to see us be very, very tough on violent gangmembers and, drug traffickers, and people who commit crimes here in the United States, immigrants who commit those crimes, and deportation would be in order. 

But I would also like to see us have a strong, livable wage policy for workers in America so that we won't have the undermining of the ability to work by people in this country, by immigrants who are paid less than minimum wages. 

I think we should have a strong, livable wage policy.  And we should, once we develop all of our policies, if, in fact, we have employers who are violating it, it should be very, very tough penalties.  As a matter of fact, there should be criminal penalties. 

COSBY:  And, Congressman Hayworth, really quick, military just trained to kill? 

HAYWORTH:  No, the military's not just trained to kill.  The military could help the Border Patrol, hopelessly outmanned and outgunned right now on our border, actually enforce the law. 

But the other fact is this:  A guest-worker amnesty plan is the wrong plan at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.  We are a nation at war, and the fact is...

WATERS:  I didn't say an amnesty plan. 

HAYWORTH:  Well, that's exactly what it is.  Earned legalization...

WATERS:  No, this is your president's plan, perhaps. 

HAYWORTH:  ... is amnesty.  Maxine, I didn't interrupt you.  And I'm happy to offer my point.

WATERS:  Well, that's OK.  We should have a discussion here.

HAYWORTH:  Let me make this point, please.  Well, I'd like to be able to make a point...

WATERS:  It's the president of the United States that wants a guest-worker program. 

HAYWORTH:  ... rather than be crosstalked. 

Rita, could I finish? 


COSBY:  Congressman, go ahead. 

Congresswoman, I'll get you in, but let me get the congressman in. 


HAYWORTH:  Here is the bottom line:  Earned legalization is amnesty on the installment plan.  The fact is that you are going to see a balkanized society.  You will see the creation, if we get this passed by statute, of a permanent underclass of the United States, separated by language, culture and substandard wages.

And you will not stem the flow of illegal immigration.  But this notion that you can have a strong border policy and, at the same time, have a liberal employer policy is public policy schizophrenia. 

COSBY:  Let me bring the Congresswoman.  Can we have it both ways? 

Can we have it both ways, Congresswoman?

WATERS:  The fact of the matter is my colleague does not want to admit that we have 11 million undocumented workers here in the United States.  In his state alone, they are covering all of the hotels, all of the restaurants, all along in southern California. 

These people are working in jobs that hold up this economy.  And you cannot just wish them away. 

HAYWORTH:  It's not a process of wishing them away, Maxine.

WATERS:  We need a plan by which they can earn legal status, and it is not amnesty.  And even though I'm not a big supporter of guest-worker programs, your president is pushing it so hard, those of you who go along with everything the president wants are going to fold anyway, and you're going to end up supporting the president. 

HAYWORTH:  No, you're talking to the wrong guy.  I'm not going to fold on this.


COSBY:  JD, what can you get out of this? 


COSBY:  Realistically, JD, what can you get out of this? 

WATERS:  He can't.  You can't. 

HAYWORTH:  Well, the bottom line is, here's the bottom line.  The first question we ought to ask is:  How do we protect lawful citizens of the United States?  When Maxine instantly says the question about those who have come here illegally, how do we accommodate them?  That is precisely the wrong question.  We should enforce the law.

COSBY:  What do you say, JD?  Do you say send them back?  What do you say?

HAYWORTH:  I say, you know what?  They relocated here illegally.  When you take away the magnet of being employed illegally, when you take away all the benefits that are coming from the pockets of American taxpayers, then I think people step and say, “Wait a minute.  What's the incentive of staying here?  Maybe I ought to go back home.”

I think you will see voluntary relocations, not a knock in the middle of the night and women and children separated from families.

WATERS:  That's pipe-dreaming, JD. 

HAYWORTH:  No, yours is the pipe dream!

WATERS:  That's pipe-dreaming.

HAYWORTH:  Yours is the pipe dream, Maxine...

WATERS:  As a matter of fact, many of the undocumented workers...


HAYWORTH:  ... because here's what's going on.  The right wants cheap labor, and the left wants cheap votes.

WATERS:  ... are in the underground economy.

HAYWORTH:  And we see what's going on.  You want to get these guys fast-tracked to citizenship because you believe they'll vote themselves more benefits, and you'll have a bonanza on the left that way. 

WATERS:  Oh, that's ridiculous. 


COSBY:  Congresswoman, are we giving these, you know, folks who have gotten in here illegally, saying, “Come on in”?  I mean, are we opening the floodgates. 

WATERS:  No, absolutely not.  What he's doing is he's not facing the reality that there are 11 million undocumented workers.  Many of them are in the underground economy.  They hired out to do all kind of handy-man work.  They're hired out to do work that's not even with the major corporations, like Wal-Mart.  They do some of that. 


COSBY:  But are we opening the floodgates?  Are we saying, “Look”...


WATERS:  No, we should secure the border.  We should get tough.  We should secure the border, have more border patrol, make sure we do the best job to stop the influx. 

We should have some way to earn legalization, a process and criteria that's set up to do that.  We should deport hard criminals and violent gang members.

And we should have livable wage policy so that we will have people accepting jobs that are now being done, perhaps by immigrants, because they're paying less than minimum wages.  These are the kinds of things that are going to end up in a compromised bill. 

And I guarantee you that, whatever bill comes out of Congress, you're going to have a guest-worker portion in it, because that's what the president of the United States is pushing.  Again, I don't necessarily favor guest-worker, where people come here and work for five or six years, then you send them home, but the president wants it so badly... 


COSBY:  JD, JD, do you think we'll see the guest-worker program?  What do you say?


WATERS:  He's going to make Republicans accept it.


HAYWORTH:  If we do, we are going to have major problems in this country.  What Maxine is endorsing is public policy schizophrenia. 

What we need is enforcement first, both on our borders and in our interior.  And this is not the classic political compromise, where you take something from column a, and something from column b, and everybody lives happily ever after. 

This is a tough problem, a problem of national security, economic security.  Heck, it can even adversely effect Social Security.  And we better think long and hard before we rush in to a guest-worker amnesty plan.  It is the wrong solution, though you have a marriage of convenience between the left and right.


WATERS:  It is not amnesty.

HAYWORTH:  Cheap labor on the right, and cheap votes on the left. 


COSBY:  Both of you, we have a little bit of time left, you guys, real quick.

WATERS:  JD is going to be one of those Republicans who are going to roll over for the president's guest-worker program.  He's jamming it down...

HAYWORTH:  How dare you accuse me of something!  No guest-worker plan. 

WATERS:  ... their throats.  They're not going to be able to resist it.  It's going to be part of a compromise. 

HAYWORTH:  I'm on the record saying I'll defend America and American citizens.


COSBY:  And both of you, real quick, real quick, you guys.  I'm going to give you both 10 seconds each. 

WATERS:  Yes, absolutely.

COSBY:  Will there be a deal?  Will there be a deal? 


WATERS:  Of course there's going to be a deal. 

HAYWORTH:  It will not even come up in the House.  We will stop it.

WATERS:  Of course there is going to be a deal. 


COSBY:  Congressman, Congressman, the me get the congressman.  Real quick, yes, no...


HAYWORTH:  If a deal is made, it will be a disaster for the United States.  I do not believe the House of Representatives will go with it.

COSBY:  All right, that's going to have to be the last word, guys. 

Both of you, thank you. 

WATERS:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

COSBY:  You were both terrific.  Thank you both so much. 

And tomorrow night on LIVE & DIRECT, we're going to have more of our special series on America's border.  You can tell it is a very heated issue.  We're going to show you the sophisticated secret weapons our border agents are using to catch smugglers in the act.

But first, everybody, we're going to have a special presentation right now.  We're going to go to the Radio and TV Correspondents Dinner.  We've got the vice president speaking right now in Washington.  Let's listen in.




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