Guests: Lisa Pinto, Bruce Baron, Steve Cohen, Frits Sissing, Vito Colucci
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening everybody. Tonight, our exclusive investigation of the U.S.-Mexican border. Our crews are there as border agents risk everything to catch people trying to sneak into the U.S. But how many people still get through? We‘re going to show you.
And for the first time, we‘re seeing pictures of a new search in the Natalee Holloway investigation. Could a cab driver hold the key to this case?
But first, attorneys for members of the Duke University lacrosse team are now speaking out. They publicly and vehemently defended their clients today against stunning allegations that some members of the team gang raped a woman at an off-campus party. The alleged incident has sparked outrage. This poster that you‘re seeing here of all the lacrosse team players is plastered across the campus, as some angry students are demanding that the players come forward and come forward soon. Meantime, the investigation has reportedly moved beyond the alleged crime scene now to a dorm room on campus, which is being searched.
NBC‘s Michelle Hofland joins me live from the university with the very latest. Michelle, where is the investigation going right now?
MICHELLE HOFLAND, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, Rita, what they‘re doing, according to the district attorney, we‘re focused right now on interviews and analyzing the information. It‘s being reported right now that the police were able to track down the other woman, the other dancer at the lacrosse party a couple weeks ago. And the DA tells me that the two women did not know each other until that night, that both of them arrived in separate cars, did not know each other, that the other dancer left the party before the alleged rape took place.
The DA also says that he‘s still waiting for that DNA evidence to be analyzed, and what he says is that he expects the results to be due sometime next week. DA Mike Nifong says that those are the test results that were taken from the swabs of the 46 lacrosse members.
But the attorneys for those 46 lacrosse team members, they are speaking out for the first time, and what they‘re saying is that the DNA test results—they say, bring those test results on because those test results will prove that the lacrosse players are innocent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE CHESHIRE, ATTORNEY FOR LACROSSE TEAM CAPTAIN JOE EVANS: The accusations that have been made against any of them related to sexual or assaultive behavior are categorically untrue. DNA has not come back, and we believe that the DNA will show that it is not true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOFLAND: Well, this afternoon, I asked the district attorney about that. He‘s kind of backpedaling a little bit. Rita, what he explained to me is that he is confident that a rape took place here, he is confident that it took place inside that home. But about the three people that they believe did it, he said, well, it may not be the lacrosse team members. You got to wait for the DNA evidence. And if it‘s not any of those lacrosse players, maybe there were three other guys who were at that party. So that‘s where it stands now, Rita.
COSBY: You know, about the guys, Michelle—and you talked about this other dancer who was there that night. Have we heard from this woman who is making these allegations, the woman at the heart of it all?
HOFLAND: No, we have not heard from her. But this evening—in fact, I just got back here to Duke University a short time ago. I went over to the home of this alleged victim, the woman that we believe is the alleged victim in this case. They wouldn‘t open the door, but I spoke with somebody through the door, who said, We just want some privacy right now. We‘re going through a lot right now.
We understand that she‘s a woman about 27, 28 years old, has two children, attends another college part-time near Duke University. But right now, she did not want to say anything at all, and her father is telling someone that she just is really going through a lot and it‘s a very tough time for her.
COSBY: All right, Michelle. Please keep us posted, especially if you hear anything more from here.
Well, tonight, a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive, the man who lives next door to the house where the rape allegedly happened. In his first television interview, Jason Bissey told us in his own words exactly what he saw and heard from his own front porch that night. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON BISSEY, LIVES NEXT DOOR TO ALLEGED CRIME SCENE: I noticed a car drive up and two young women get out, met with the gentleman (ph) and then walked /back over here, to the back of the house. Two young women, one of them dressed in a short skirt and high heels, and the other woman was dressed a little more conservatively—but they spoke with the gentleman outside of this door here briefly, and then all of the—at this point, all of the young men were inside. They spoke amongst themselves for about five minutes or so and then entered the house.
And at that point, I went inside to take a shower. And when I came out, this entire alley was full of men kind of yelling, and I overheard a lot of talk about getting money back and the money they‘d spent or whatever. And the young women were back in the car in front, and one of the young men was leaning into the driver‘s side door, speaking with her. But at that point, the situation seemed to calm down a little bit, and they were able, I guess, to convince one of the girls to go back inside.
And that‘s at the point where I overheard her talking about going back and getting her shoe. So the young ladies went back into the house, and at that point, nobody was out in the alley. The situation seemed pretty calm. And I was back in the house, just kind of hanging out, checking my e-mail and stuff, and I overheard the situation starting to boil up again outside.
And at that point, the young women were coming back out of the house, getting into the car and driving away. And there were a lot of young men running (ph) this way, towards Duke‘s east campus. And that‘s the point, when the girls were driving off, that I overheard the racial slur. One of the young men yelled, Hey, expletive deleted, thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt.
And within two minutes, everything was totally dispersed, everybody was gone, and the police showed up shortly thereafter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And again, that was Jason Bissey, the neighbor who lives right next door, talking to us in his first TV interview.
But tonight, attorneys representing some of the lacrosse team players are adamant that their guys did nothing wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHESHIRE: This rush to judgment, which has created a lynch mob mentality, which has hurt the university, Duke University, unfairly, which has hurt the community of Durham unfairly, is just unfortunate, at best, and un-American, if I might say so.
MIKE NIFONG, DURHAM COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This is the type of case that, because of the—on top of the rape, which is already an abhorrent crime enough, you have the additional racial animus and hostility that just seems totally out of place for this community in this day and age.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining me now is former prosecutor Lisa Pinto, and also defense attorney Bruce Baron. Bruce, let‘s firs start with the player‘s attorney saying, Is this a rush to judgment?
BRUCE BARON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, this is beyond a rush to judgment.
This is something out of the KGB. It‘s ridiculous. Look at this guy. He‘s going there and he‘s taking 46 DNA samples. None of these individuals have been charged. Whatever happened to the Constitution? It‘s ridiculous!
COSBY: Yes, and Lisa...
COSBY: Let me bring in Lisa because we just heard, Lisa, also in Michelle Hofland‘s report, today he was sort of backpedaling, saying, Well, maybe it wasn‘t even the lacrosse team, after all. Did he sort of jump the gun here?
LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Wait a minute, Rita~! Did we just hear that same independent eyewitness say that two young black women were called racial epithets? There was a reference to cotton picking, days of slavery, exactly as these women had said to the police.
BARON: Right, Lisa. So you know what this district attorney should do?
PINTO: We have words. We‘ve got a rape kit here!
BARON: This DA should go...
PINTO: We got injuries!
BARON: ... door to door, take urine samples...
PINTO: We‘ve got a nurse!
BARON: ... and give out a leaflet that he‘s running for office next month.
PINTO: You know what?
BARON: This is ridiculous!
PINTO: No, Bruce, let me tell you something!
BARON: Lisa, is this the first time that they‘ve ever been omerta, where all of a sudden, people are worshiping silence? Come on!
COSBY: Lisa—Lisa, what about...
COSBY: What about the phrasing? He‘s using the word rape, I‘m confident a rape took place. Should he be saying, Maybe a rape may have occurred, maybe being careful with some of the words?
PINTO: Rita, when a young woman is locked in a bathroom with three men and is strangled near to death and fights for her life such that five of her artificial fingernails...
BARON: Lisa, you remember Kobe?
PINTO: ... are found on the floor...
COSBY: Lisa makes a great point. The five fingernails—the other thing, too, that we heard, that they also did a rape exam, and of course—and the DA says...
PINTO: Medical records, Rita!
PINTO: Medical records don‘t lie!
COSBY: What about—and Bruce—hang on one second, guys. Let me play—these are the attorneys. They were on Dan Abrams‘s show earlier tonight. These are the attorneys for two of the players. And I‘ll get you guys to react. But first of all, they say, basically, no sex happened. They‘re locked in. Let‘s listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have said from day one that no one in the house had sex with that particular young lady.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My client certainly denies that he had sex of any kind with this alleged victim, and to his knowledge, nobody at all at the house had sex with any of the women who were there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Bruce, when you hear that, that‘s two totally different stories. They‘re basically saying no sex occurred at all.
BARON: Absolutely. And you know, I‘d like to know from this prosecutor, whatever happened to good police interrogation? Whatever happened to line-ups? What ever happened to investigations? What is he going to do, take DNA samples from everybody who resides in Durham? It‘s ridiculous! How about making the case? How about investigating the case...
BARON: ... and then if there‘s a case, so be it. It‘s ridiculous!
PINTO: Bruce, you ever defend a rape case? What about the so-called
the Tulow (ph) kit? What about the exam by the forensic nurse at the hospital...
BARON: Right. What about the exam...
PINTO: ... that this young woman...
BARON: ... in the Kobe case...
PINTO: They found bruises...
BARON: ... where there was vaginal bleeding...
PINTO: We‘re not talking about Kobe, Bruce!
BARON: ... there was vaginal damage? And you know what happened in the Kobe case, Lisa?
PINTO: Rita, we‘re not...
BARON: Kobe had to pay $4 million...
PINTO: ... Kobe!
BARON: ... for a ring to say he‘s sorry to his wife!
COSBY: Lisa, let me get you in because what about the DNA? Because, of course, I think a lot of this is going to rest on DNA. These guys are locked in, saying no sex, as far as they know, unless they say that the music was so loud, they couldn‘t hear something in the other room.
COSBY: but don‘t you think the DNA—that‘s going to be conclusive one way or the other, Lisa?
PINTO: Rita, what if they used condoms? We have bruising...
COSBY: But the girl didn‘t say she used condoms.
PINTO: ... and injuries.
COSBY: Lisa, the girl did not say that. Don‘t you think she would have said that?
PINTO: Rita, she was fighting so hard for oxygen, I don‘t think she knew...
BARON: Oh, please!
PINTO: ... what happened, except that she was...
PINTO: ... being held down and fighting for her life. But Rita, how do you know—if 43 people don‘t have—if they have sex but they don‘t ejaculate, does that mean they didn‘t penetrate her?
PINTO: In North Carolina, to commit the B felony, all you have to do is penetrate the vulva! I‘m sorry...
COSBY: Let me play devil‘s advocate, Bruce, because, look, this DA seems pretty confident. He‘s said that there is physical evidence. He‘s looking at—there may be something a lot more than we know. And the other thing, too...
COSBY: And also—wait one second. Bruce, also, we just heard from Michelle that they‘ve track down this other dancer. They did not know each other before this. If this dancer corroborates, she doesn‘t really have anything to get out of this. They‘re not good friends.
BARON: Well, if the dancer corroborates, it certainly makes the case stronger. But he‘s putting the cart before the horse. He‘s got to investigate—look, let‘s go no further than that Kobe case. You had all the examinations. You had the vaginal bleeding. You had the vaginal damage. And at the end of the day, there was no case. It was consensual. You had DNA there also. Kobe...
BARON: ... voluntarily volunteered his DNA.
PINTO: Bruce is stuck...
COSBY: And you guys, that‘s going to have to be...
PINTO: ... in Colorado!
COSBY: That‘s going to have to be the last word. Love to have you guys back on. But remember, again, in this case, you guys, these guys have said no sex occurred. There was no assault. So let‘s see what happens. It‘s going to be very interesting. And everybody, we will continue to follow this case throughout, and we‘ll keep you posted on any new developments.
Meantime, up next tonight, the preacher‘s wife accused of his brutal murder. Why did she do it? The inside story on the life of a pastor‘s wife is coming up. And that‘s not all.
Still ahead, our LIVE AND DIRECT investigation. We saw firsthand the dramatic extremes border agents go to to nab people sneaking into the U.S. See for yourself how they jump fences and risk their own lives in an effort to keep our borders safe.
And a new search for Natalee Holloway. Tonight, pictures of investigators in action you won‘t see anywhere else. Plus, can a Dutch TV show help solve the mystery? We have an exclusive interview with the host who says it can.
And find out why super-hot supermodel Naomi Campbell has traded in a walk on the runway for a perp walk. Why did she spend some time in the slammer? That‘s coming up, and a whole lot more.
COSBY: Tonight, a new twist in the Natalee Holloway investigation. We‘re hearing from people in Aruba that a cab driver could hold the key to this case. Police are putting so much stock into this driver‘s story that Dutch investigators and cadaver dogs are now on the island to help in a new search for Natalee. Also, we‘re getting the first look at those Dutch investigators getting down to work. These pictures that you‘re seeing here show investigators and their dogs searching the beach near the Marriott Hotel.
Joining me now live by phone from the island of Aruba is Steve Cohen. He‘s a spokesman for the Aruban government. You know, Steve, what are you hearing about this cab driver tip?
STEVE COHEN, SPECIAL ADVISER TO ARUBAN GOVERNMENT: Well, the tip that you‘re referring to goes back a number of weeks, where there were some phone calls that were received by the investigators. And this call, corroborated by other calls, gave the investigation team a sense that there were not just one location but a few locations that they needed to review. And that‘s why they then went through the process of getting the cadaver dogs, as well as some sonar devices to do the investigations.
COSBY: You know, Steve, do they know exactly who this person is? And is he actually maybe walking along the beach with investigators, that involved?
COHEN: No, that—I don‘t know that to be the case at all, Rita. I can‘t confirm that for you. As far as I know—and I‘ve been out there for the last few days—it has been inspectors and police department personnel only that I‘ve seen at the sites.
COSBY: Where exactly are they searching, Steve? We‘ve heard about a couple different locations.
COHEN: Well, there‘s two that the island has been aware of, that have been known. One is the Marriott location, which was a fairly brief search of a few days ago. And then just north of the lighthouse, which is at the northern tip of the island, the dunes in front of the lighthouse, about 300 yards from the lighthouse, which is, again, right at the northern beach.
COSBY: You know, Steve, originally, we were hearing that Dutch investigators weren‘t going to come until April 11. Why did they come earlier?
COHEN: Well, I think what happens here is that people come up with different target dates that are not official. And I actually don‘t think that the investigation team has had any target dates at all. They‘ve been just looking at parameters of when they thought they could get things working. And I think that, you know, we‘ve waited—everyone‘s waited a fair amount of time for this. They wanted to be very careful. And it‘s commenced now, but actually, what you have been showing is really just the preliminary phases of what we think will be a much more extensive search.
COSBY: Well, Steve, we wish them a lot of luck. Of course, this family deserves some answers, and everybody else who‘s worked on this case. Steve, thank you very much.
And also new from Aruba, Dutch public television is now doing its part to help in the Natalee Holloway case. A program similar to “America‘s Most Wanted,” called “Arrest Requested,” is recreating the night that hen Natalee vanished in Aruba with help from local Aruban police.
I spoke exclusively to the Dutch TV host and director, who‘s at the helm of this latest plea for help. I asked him who came up with the idea for the show on Natalee‘s disappearance.
FRITS SISSING, DUTCH TV HOST AND DIRECTOR: Well, the police in Aruba is in contact with the police in Holland. And here in Holland, we have already for 23 (ph) years our program (INAUDIBLE) in which we help the police to solve crimes. So I think the police in Holland and the police in Aruba came together and they talked about it. They say, Well, which kind of options we still have? And then somebody probably said, Well, one of the options is why don‘t you use our crime program?
COSBY: Why the renewed interest? You know, why the timing of this?
SISSING: Why not? What does it matter? You should try everything to solve this crime, if it is a crime. And that‘s not yet been pointed out. But you should try to solve it, the missing. So I think it‘s a good idea to try everything.
COSBY: How far back are you recreating? Is it just the day and night she went missing or several days prior to?
SISSING: Well, of course, we make a reconstruction, and it will start, of course, when Natalee arrives at Aruba. But of course, it will concentrate on the last night.
COSBY: And the cast, who picked who to play Natalee, who to play Joran? And do they resemble the actual people?
SISSING: I hope so because the police of Aruba—we asked the police of Aruba to find some people who would look like the people who are in the reconstruction, and they told me that they found people who would seem like Natalee and the other people. But I have to wait until my camera crew is coming back.
COSBY: You know what‘s incredible, too, I‘ve heard that they‘re actually wearing the same clothes.
SISSING: Yes. We will try it because we will ask people if they can remember something. And of course, you can remember something if you see on television what you could have seen in real.
COSBY: Is the hardest thing to decide which version of the events?
You know, there‘s so many theories out there.
SISSING: Yes, we...
COSBY: How do you know which thing to reconstruct?
SISSING: Yes. Well, we only will reconstruct what is known by facts, and what the people—what the police doesn‘t know, we will ask the people to help us in that.
COSBY: Have you consulted with Natalee‘s family?
SISSING: I can‘t tell you because that is all what the police of Aruba is doing. They have contact with the family.
COSBY: You talked about the goal sort of being to trigger someone‘s memory. Is that the hope, that somebody will see something?
SISSING: Yes. And will come forward to share his information with the police.
COSBY: You know, in the case of “America‘s Most Wanted,” which is sort of similar to your program here in the United States...
COSBY: ... they have a very good success rate. Tell us about your success rate and how many cases have been solved.
SISSING: Oh, many, many. Our success rate is 33 percent of the cases we solve. That‘s one out of three. And well, we‘re here already for 23 years, so I think there are thousands of cases we solved through our program.
COSBY: And do you think that this may help solve it? Do you believe that this could be maybe something that breaks it?
SISSING: I hope so. I hope so. Our program solved a lot of cases which seemed not to be able to solve. So we only need to have the one golden tip to find her. So we just hope for the best.
COSBY: I know it‘s airing in Holland and it‘s also airing in Aruba.
Is the hope maybe here in America, too?
SISSING: Yes, I hope so, it will be broadcast in America, too.
COSBY: Frits, thank you very much.
COSBY: So could this new show bring any breakthroughs in the Holloway case. LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is private investigator Vito Colucci. Vito, could this program help?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: I don‘t think so, Rita, and here‘s the reason why. You‘d have to be on Mars not to have heard about this case. There‘s a $250,000 reward. We know all the key players, the Kalpoes, the Van Der Sloot family. You know, what are they going to come up with on this? See, the “America‘s Most Wanted” we do here in our country, a lot of the cases, Rita, are cases that are not well known so many times. So put a suspect‘s name, and somebody‘ll say, Oh, my God, I saw that guy in the corner store. Everybody knows the cast of characters here. I don‘t know what it‘s going to do, other than make for maybe good TV in that part of the world, Rita.
COSBY: You know, what do you make of the fact that they actually got the clothes—apparently, they found, like, the brand of dress she was wearing, the type of shoes Joran was wearing, and actually went out and bought the same thing. I mean, what do you make of that?
COLUCCI: Again, that‘s—what‘s that going to show? In Carlos and Charlie‘s, we already know, by everybody‘s own admittance, where they left to. The scenes on the beach, the different things. That‘s where the discrepancies happen. But what are you going to get, somebody‘s all of a sudden going to say, Oh, yes, I remember a girl with that dress on?
You know, I think it‘ll make for good TV out there. I can see them having a good track record in the past on different types of cases. I don‘t know what, though, because they never get murders or big cases over there. So I really don‘t know what this is going to accomplish, Rita.
COSBY: You know, the TV host from Dutch television essentially said, Look, Dutch TV are really in charge of this production. Is that a little bit of a selective editing? I mean, who knows what they‘re going to give them.
COLUCCI: Yes, it‘d be interesting to see how they do this. But again, where are they going to go with this? And please, I hope nobody tries to compare this with our “America‘s Most Wanted,” which is top of the line. You know, I just don‘t think it‘s going to do anything. I‘s glad to see that they are searching again. Something like that is positive, OK? But the show is not going to add anything. There‘s a $250,000 reward, Rita. Somebody would have jumped on that a while back.
COSBY: Right. Usually, money talks, and unfortunately, it hasn‘t so far in this case. Vito, thank you very much.
And still ahead, everybody, the sole survivor in the West Virginia mining tragedy is doing something some thought would never happen. He is heading home. You‘ll hear from him in his first interview.
And find out what happens to these people making a run for the border. It‘s part of our exclusive border investigation, and that‘s coming up, some incredible pictures.
COSBY: And late developments tonight, and dramatic pictures coming in to us involving the battle over America‘s borders, as we continue our special series on this hotly contested issue. Just today, border agents busted a major human smuggling ring near Yuma, Arizona. They found nearly 100 illegal immigrants, including many women and also children, hiding out in filthy conditions and also sweltering heat.
And in the same area, just two days ago, border agents captured these incredible images of a truck crash involving as many as 17 illegal immigrants. Nearly half of them escaped before border agents were able to arrive on the scene.
Meantime, LIVE AND DIRECT went to the hotbed of Yuma, Arizona, to see firsthand the challenges facing the U.S. border agents every hour. We got a rare look at the secret high-tech equipment that agents are using to keep our borders safe. Take a look.
COSBY (voice-over): Graphic images of stone throwing youths, runaway vehicles crashing head on into police. Think you‘re in the West Bank or Gaza strip? This is right here at home, the 24/7 barrage of foreign migrants, drug smugglers and bandits crossing illegally onto U.S. soil along the Mexico-Arizona border, often going to very dangerous lengths to make the trek.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We‘ve had problems with illegals driving across the Colorado River. You can see it‘s not very deep in a lot of these areas. And by just placing several sandbags or sometimes several hundred sandbags, the smugglers are able to drive right across the river from Mexico into the United States.
In response to that, what we‘ve done is place large rocks on these trails to prevent vehicles from being able to make it up to the roadways. You can see these rocks were placed here probably just several days ago. Already, they‘ve had a crew come in and move these large boulders out of the way.
COSBY: This is what happened earlier that morning, after those boulders were removed: The smuggler driver and his Mexican passengers all taken to the hospital, with serious injuries, after colliding with a car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the challenges that we faced last year was numerous vehicular incursions that quickly made it into populated areas. Currently in the Yuma area, the Department of Homeland Security is the implemented vehicle barriers like you see here. We‘ve been funded to implement six miles of vehicle barrier east of the San Luis port of entry.
COSBY: Our crew walked right into Mexican territory, as Border Patrol agent Michael Gramly (ph) showed us some of the many non-fenced open areas along San Luis, Mexico, a large town with a population of over 200,000 people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do anticipate a future need to get this fence completed, and that‘s why it is in the process of being completed. The military units that were performing the infrastructure projects here were deployed to Iraq, and we have additional military units that are scheduled to come into the area and complete this project.
COSBY: And although, as our team saw firsthand, just how easy it is to scale a fence, there‘s a secret electronic fence most of us have never seen until now. A network of hidden surveillance cameras, ground-detection monitors and heat sensors, all monitored and controlled from right here in Yuma sector headquarters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we‘re in the Yuma sector communication sector. From this location, law enforcement communications assistance monitor 25 different remote video surveillance cameras and report any activity that they see to agents in the field.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dark window just loaded up north of Sleepy Hollow.
It‘s getting ready to hit the Andratti Road (ph) and probably go north.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They also receive a report of any sensor activations. They then relay to agents in the field, also.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two suspected illegal individuals trying to enter the United States. I‘ve told the agents about them, and they‘re going to respond here shortly when they know that they can catch them.
COSBY: We got a dramatic example of just how sophisticated this electronic fence really is. At 10:20 p.m., the surveillance agent captures these images of a large group jumping the fence into the United States. Led by a smuggler, the group is seen wading through a deepwater canal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She saw a group of approximately 15 subjects cross from Mexico into the United States. And at this point, she‘s saying that that group is far enough commitment in, that if agents move into the area, they will be able to apprehend them without the bulk of the group making it back into Mexico. So, right now, that‘s where we‘re headed to.
COSBY: They‘re seen crossing this dirt road and then moving into thick desert terrain. It suddenly becomes clear the group notices the headlights of one of our crew‘s vehicles approaching in the distance. They hunker down in the brush and hide.
At the top of the screen, you can see the surveillance video controlled by an agent, who is leading our crew to the group of illegal immigrants. Since it‘s pitch-black out and our headlights are now off, this is the only way we can capture agents apprehending them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She sees us in her picture. She‘s telling us exactly how to drive so that we intercept the majority of the...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the chopper‘s coming in, too.
COSBY: A Border Patrol helicopter and backup agents are brought in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There they are. OK, we‘ve got bodies right ahead of us. Sixteen, we got 16. So 17, that should be all of them.
COSBY: Among this group of 17 people, an entire family, with two young children. Agents carefully place the family into one vehicle, making sure they don‘t end up separated and can return home to Mexico together.
While evidence of a tough balancing act between defense and humanity, something these Border Patrol agents say they face each and every difficult day and night on America‘s borders.
COSBY: And our thanks to our producer, Darren Mackoff, for those really eye-opening reports.
And that delicate balancing act that we were just talking about is exactly what President Bush is discussing today with Mexican President Vicente Fox. The two leaders are in Cancun, Mexico talking about border security, including how to prevent terrorists from sneaking into our country.
I sat down with the Mexican president for an exclusive interview and asked him if he is concerned that a weapon of mass destruction could be smuggled across the border. Here is what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: ... and from somewhere those terrorists, that very unfortunate act of September 11th, it came from somewhere. We all should be worried about this.
This is something that we‘re working with a high priority, not only in Mexico, but most democratic nations of the world. We are very strong on the fight against terrorism, in joining any nation that is acting with force from this.
We don‘t want terrorism here in Mexico, and we don‘t want it in the states. We don‘t want it anywhere.
COSBY: But how can you guarantee that someone is not coming through? We know that, in the past few years, folks who were caught, other than Mexicans, and some from countries that have harbored terrorists have come through the Mexican border.
FOX: I have to make very clear: It‘s not a worry about terrorism or security that is exclusive of United States; it‘s exactly the worries and preoccupations that we share.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And our thanks to the Mexican president for giving us that interview.
Meantime, President Bush is also meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Cancun, discussing security along our northern border, as well.
And now to another story that has the whole world‘s attention. President Bush took time out of his meetings today to praise the surprising release of American hostage Jill Carroll in Iraq.
Carroll was finally released this morning after being held hostage for nearly three long months. And tonight, she is back safely inside the Green Zone in Baghdad. She was not able to give officials many details about her captors or why they decided to release her, but she said that she was not tortured while in captivity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL CARROLL, FREED JOURNALIST: I‘m just happy to be free. I was treated very well. It‘s important people know that, that I was not harmed. They never said they would hit me, never threatened me in any way. And I‘m just happy to be free and want to be with my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And the U.S. embassy will help Jill Carroll get home as soon as possible.
And still ahead, everybody, the sole survivor of the Sago mining tragedy is speaking out for the very first time. Hear what he says happened while he was trapped underground.
And a preacher‘s wife accused of killing her own husband. Now, some people are coming to her defense. That‘s coming up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE BOB GRAY, MCNAIRY COUNTY, TENNESSEE: I need to make sure that you do understand that you are knowingly and voluntarily waiving your right to a preliminary hearing today. You‘ve had a chance to speak with Mr. Farese and Mr. Ballon (ph), I know.
Is it your desire at this point to waive your right to a preliminary hearing?
MARY WINKLER, ACCUSED OF KILLING HUSBAND: Yes, sir.
GRAY: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that was the Tennessee wife accused of murdering her minister husband waiving her right to a hearing just a few hours ago. The judge promptly sent Mary Winkler back to jail without bond. It‘s now up to a grand jury to determine if the minister‘s wife will go on trial for killing her own husband with a shotgun.
Joining us now is Mary Winkler‘s attorney, Steven Farese, and also the creator of Heart and Soul Connection, Nancy Burgess. She‘s been married to a church pastor for more than 35 years and now works in counseling fellow ministry wives.
Steve, let me start with you. Why didn‘t you want to ask for bail?
STEVE FARESE, MARY WINKLER‘S ATTORNEY: Well, right now we wanted to have some psychological forensic work done on our client. And that might strengthen our position later for bail. Right now, we didn‘t feel we had a very good chance of having bail granted.
COSBY: How did she feel? I mean, did she feel like she needs to be behind bars? She‘s a very spiritual person. Does she feel like she needs to atone for what she did?
FARESE: Well, first of all, you would be assuming she was guilty of something if she needed to atone for it; we‘re not willing to concede that at this point.
COSBY: Has she admitted though—I mean, she did tell a friend to go to the church and apologize for her. Will you at least confirm that?
FARESE: I heard that report. I can‘t confirm its accuracy. But, you know, going to church and saying she was sorry, sorry for what?
COSBY: Well, let me play a little clip, Steven. This is from one of the neighbors we had on our show. And she talked about some unusual behavior, not by Mary, but by her husband, who was, of course, killed by the shotgun.
But let‘s play this clip, because it doesn‘t sound like a minister too much in this quote.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON EVERITT, WINKLERS‘ NEIGHBOR: We have a dog, and the dog was out playing with the children one day. And he stopped the children, and he told the children that, if we didn‘t keep the dog in the house, that he would shoot the dog.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Steven, we heard that. I was pretty surprised. I mean, this is a minister we‘re talking about. Again, this is the neighbor‘s account. But have you heard similar reports, Steve?
FARESE: I have not. And I don‘t want to make too much of that report, and I don‘t want to besmirch the name of Matthew or the lady who made this statement. But, you know, there are a lot of instances where I might have said the same thing. I know I‘m not a minister, but if a dog came at one of my grandchildren, I might make that statement.
COSBY: That‘s good to know.
And, you know, Nancy, you‘re a minister‘s wife. And I want to put up
this is an article that you posted on your Web site. It says, “The demands of people on your time, the financial burdens, and the constant juggling between family and ministry can leave you exhausted. There is a certain imbalance that naturally comes with the ministry.”
Do you believe that Mary Winkler was just suffering from just juggling and just overwhelming, maybe postpartum depression, too, as well?
NANCY BURGESS, COUNSELS MINISTRY WIVES: I certainly do. I think that, in some research I‘ve done, I found out her mother died a year ago. She had a baby a year ago. She started school a year ago. She moved to a new town a year ago. She started a new church, new friends. And then she started college to finish her education. She was under a lot of stress.
COSBY: But, Steve, regardless, that doesn‘t give any excuse to possibly kill her husband?
BURGESS: No, it does not.
FARESE: That alone would not, certainly.
COSBY: And, Steve, where are you going for in the testing, too?
Where are you going for?
FARESE: Well, we want to try to see what her state of mind is now, of course, for competency reasons. But we want to go back and see if we can find out what her state of mind was at the time of this alleged act.
COSBY: Has she talked to you at all about what her state of mind—
I‘m not going to ask you the details, but has she at least revealed to you privately in general what was going through her mind?
FARESE: Yes. Yes.
COSBY: She has?
And, Mary, walk us through, sort of, the pressures, Nancy, that go through a minister‘s wife? I mean, I would just—you know, I‘m sure there‘s a lot of public pressure. They don‘t make a lot of money. Walk us through what you have just experienced with others, Nancy.
BURGESS: Well, I‘m talking to so many. And since this has broken, this story about Mary Winkler and her husband, I have received calls, e-mails from all over this world from minister‘s wives, saying we‘re just so glad to know that there‘s a place where we can talk and we can find a safe place and know that there‘s some help out there, before it gets to a point like Mary Winkler.
But some of the stressors that are unique to ministry wives are, obviously, the financial pressures, the time management. Not many other wives go on location on their husband‘s job, and we‘re constantly a part of our husband‘s jobs.
We also fight what I like to call the mistress. That would be the church. Our husband is called out day and night, and they go. And his family, the pastor‘s family, minister‘s families are left alone while they‘re out ministering to other families.
But also, the pressures can be—they live between two extremes. The extremes would be either their husbands are so put on a pedestal, and yet the wife knows what he‘s really like at home, and he‘s just a man, or they live between the other extreme, which is they know their husband‘s heart, they‘re trying to do good, they‘re trying to minister in the lord‘s name, they‘re trying to do kingdom work, and they‘re criticized, misunderstood.
And that also is an extreme. So somewhere in between ministry wives live, and it‘s a hard place.
COSBY: Thank you very much for your insight, and interesting, and again...
BURGESS: You‘re welcome.
COSBY: ... of course, the key is, of course, to get help before it gets to any sort of boiling point.
COSBY: But we thank you both very much.
And still ahead, everybody, what was it like being trapped in an underground mine? The sole survivor of the Sago mining tragedy breaks his silence and talks about finally going home. It‘s a great story, and it‘s coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDAL MCCLOY, SAGO MINE SURVIVOR: I thank God, mostly. It‘s because of him why I‘m still here today. It just kind of, like, lets me know that there‘s more people that care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And he is being called the miracle miner. And tonight, Randal McCloy is finally home with his loving family.
McCloy spent three months in a rehab hospital since the January explosion at the Sago mine in West Virginia that killed 12 of his colleagues. Randal survived, suffering serious damage to his brain and other organs from inhaling carbon monoxide fumes.
Before he went home, McCloy sat down with the “Today” show‘s Matt Lauer for this exclusive interview.
R. MCCLOY: You can really not tell yourself enough to be prepared, because you‘re blindsided because you can‘t see. You‘re running like a goose in a damn mine, and you even don‘t know where you‘re going.
MATT LAUER, HOST, “TODAY” SHOW: And you have to hope that someone out there is looking for you.
R. MCCLOY: Yep.
LAUER (voice-over): Up above, rescuers had arrived, but they didn‘t dare go in the mine. The air inside, poisoned with carbon monoxide. There was a chance of a second explosion for methane or coal dust. Randy and his coworkers were on their own, with just an hour or so of emergency oxygen per man.
R. MCCLOY: We all knew there was nothing you could do. We all knew that. We knew, you know, we was going to end up taken the (INAUDIBLE)
LAUER: The hours passed; the oxygen ran out.
Up above, 24 hours after the explosion, Anna McCloy was still convinced that Randy was going to make it.
ANNA MCCLOY, WIFE OF SAGO MINE SURVIVOR: My husband, if he‘s alive, he‘s going to come out of there. He knows what he‘s doing.
LAUER: And down in the mine, Randy was alive. But one by one, the other miners were dying.
(on camera): How clear is your memory on what happened in that mine?
R. MCCLOY: Pretty clear. I really don‘t want to get into the details of it, but some things happened that I‘d rather I didn‘t see, but I did.
LAUER (voice-over): He says he‘s not ready to talk about his friends‘ last moments, in part because he wants to share what he knows directly with their families.
R. MCCLOY: I don‘t want anyone to, you know, say, “Well, I didn‘t hear about this, and I got to hear it on the news,” you know? I really don‘t want that to happen.
LAUER: But we already know that some of men wrote farewell notes to their loved ones. Randy did.
(on camera): Can you tell me a little bit about what he said?
A. MCCLOY: He just started out by saying, “Anna, I love you so much,” and I told Randal to trust in the Lord and for Isabel to stay sweet. And he didn‘t want us to grieve long; he wanted us to be happy in life, and he signed it, “Daddy.”
LAUER: That‘s a hard thing to have to say goodbye to someone on a piece of paper.
R. MCCLOY: Yes, it is, all kinds of things you want to say and can‘t.
LAUER (voice-over): Up above, more than 40 hours now since the explosion, the families of the trapped miners were going through hell. Word reached the surface that rescuers had found 12 men alive. But three hours later, that was revealed to be a terrible mistake. Only one miner was alive. The question for every family: Which one?
(on camera): Do you remember being rescued?
R. MCCLOY: No, because I had so much carbon monoxide in my lungs, I couldn‘t even breathe, much less, you know, speak properly.
LAUER: Twelve men lay dead, and yet the searchers pulled Randy McCloy out alive.
(on camera): On TV, you said, if he‘s alive, I will tell you right now, he is going to come out of that mine.
A. MCCLOY: Yes. Well, in the back of my mind, I really wasn‘t sure, but then I know Randy, and I know his determination and his willpower. And I know his love for me and his kids. And I knew that, if anybody was, it was going to be him.
COSBY: And we want to wish both Randy and Anna the very best, especially in the days ahead.
And still ahead here, supermodel Naomi Campbell is known for both being hot on the runway and having an even hotter temper. Tonight, find out why New York cops put her behind bars. The breaking celebrity news is coming up next.
COSBY: Tonight, the supermodel known for a super hot temper is out of jail after allegedly trading in the catwalk for a real cat fight. Naomi Campbell is accused of slamming her housekeeper with a phone during an argument this morning.
New York City police charged Campbell with assault. They say the housekeeper needed four stitches on her head. Naomi‘s spokesperson released a statement saying, “We believe this is a case of retaliation because Naomi had fired her housekeeper earlier this morning. We are confident the courts will see it the same way.”
In 2001, Naomi was accused of throwing a phone at one assistant and pled guilty to beating another in 1998.
And that does it for me this evening on LIVE & DIRECT. Have a great week, and the rest of the week, everybody, and also the weekend.
Now, let‘s pass it to Joe Scarborough who‘s here in Secaucus.
Joe, take it away.
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