IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for April 4

Read the transcript to the Tuesday show

Guests: Ernie Allen, Del Harvey, Wendy Murphy, Deb Opri, Jake Goldenflame, Mark Lounsbury, Betti-Ann Adams, William Bell, Alejandra St. Guillen

RITA COSBY, HOST "LIVE AND DIRECT":  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, a murder mystery in a wealthy New York City suburb, a man found brutally stabbed to death in his mansion.  No suspects, no motive.  But there is a startling link to another high-profile murder case.

Also, a college town on edge.  Students and residents face off after allegations of gang rape at Duke University.  The town's mayor joins us live to tell us how he's going to make sure that the situation does not turn violent.

But first, the frightening story of a teenage boy pulled into the dark world of Internet pornography.


JUSTIN BERRY, TEENAGER LURED INTO INTERNET PORN:  They wanted me to take off my pants, remove my underwear and eventually masturbate on camera.  The seduction was slow.


COSBY:  And it's a world that any teenager could easily fall prey to and a story that every parent should know.  Nineteen-year-old Justin Berry made plenty of cash secretly performing sex acts in front of his own webcam until a reporter helped pull him out of the business.  Today, the former child porn star provided graphic testimony before Congress, speaking out about the dangers of Internet predators and what happened to him.


BERRY:  Webcams and instant messaging give predators power over children.  The predators become part of that child's life.  Whatever warnings the child may have heard about meeting strangers, these people are no longer strangers.  They have every advantage.  It is the standard seduction of child predators multiplied on a geometric scale.

I no longer cared about anything other than getting as much money as possible.  But when another teenager in my own town found the videos for my Web site and distributed them to my classmates, I felt compelled to leave.  My father lived in Mexico.  I wanted to establish a relationship with him. 

My mother said I could visit him for a week.

My week-long visit to Mexico was extended again and again.  At one point, my father asked where all my money was coming from.  I told him about my business, and he offered in his words, to help maximize the earnings potential.  I had already established a new site called, which featured me engaging in sex with Mexican women.  My father helped by hiring prostitutes for me to have sex with on camera. 

The number of members—of paid members skyrocketed.

I was 16 years old.  I became even more self-destructive.  I abused marijuana terribly and consumed so much cocaine that I'm amazed I survived.  My life was a swirl of drugs, money and sex.

When a paying member of my site, Greg Mitchell (ph), offered to come to Mexico and bring me gifts, I accepted.  He, too, sexually molested me, but I no longer cared.  I just wanted his money.  I had become exactly what my members viewed me to be, what their degrading conversations convinced me I was, a piece of meat for sale to the highest bidder.


COSBY:  And all of this started happening to Justin when he was just 13 years old.  Joining me now is MSNBC's chief Washington correspondent, Norah O'Donnell, who has been following Justin's powerful testimony all day long—Norah.

NORAH O'DONNELL, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Rita, it is a sick and sordid world on line, and there are digital stalkers preying on this Internet, looking for teens like Justin and other children.  Federal law enforcement officials estimate that there are some 50,000 sexual predators at any moment roaming the Internet.

And so Justin, who was a victim, spoke out today in Congress in order to bring attention to this issue, and also, he said, to try and protect America's children, especially to point out that no teenager should have a webcam in their room.  All the experts said that, that this webcam is just a portal.  It puts your child's image on the Internet, and then pedophiles are looking for that.  Within minutes, they found Justin Berry when he got his first webcam when he was 13 years old.

And I want to play a little bit more from this hearing, from Justin Berry and also from the “New York Times” reporter, Kurt Eichenwald, who uncovered Justin and today brought him before Congress.


BERRY:  I repeatedly attempted to pull away from this sick business, but each time, I fell back into this criminal world that had first seduced me and eventually controlled me.

My experience is not as isolated as you may hope.  This is not the story of a few bad kids whose parents paid no attention.  There are hundreds of kids in the United States alone who are right now wrapped up in this horror.  Within each of your congressional districts, I guarantee you there are children who have used their webcams to appear naked on line, and I guarantee you there are also children in your district on the Internet right now being contacted and seduced by on-line sexual predators.

KURT EICHENWALD, “NEW YORK TIMES”:  I was dumbfounded by the willingness of on-line pedophiles to identify themselves, to publicly discuss their crimes in non-protected, publicly accessible sites and chat rooms.  But what became obvious, as I disclosed in my article, is that our federal law enforcement effort to combat this threat appears to be hobbled by fractured responsibilities, bureaucratic mindsets and a simple inability to respond.


O'DONNELL:  Now Rita, Internet child porn is a booming business, $20 billion worldwide.  Compare that to on-line music, which makes only $3 billion.  This is a huge, huge business.  And Justin alone says that he was solicited by more than 1,000 men.  He made hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Since he got out of the business and has been drug-free, he has been cooperating with the Justice Department, has turned over 1,500 names, but they tell me tonight that there have only been two arrests—Rita.

COSBY:  You know, Norah, you talked about just two arrests out of all those names handed over.  How is the Justice Department responding to criticism that so few have actually been caught?

O'DONNELL:  Well, I asked many Justice Department and FBI officials that question today.  How is it that when you have all the information of 1,500 people, potential predators, that there have only been two arrested?  The response that I received was that this is an ongoing investigation, one official saying, To say we're not doing anything, that's wrong.  They are looking into this.

Justin says there are hundreds of kids out there who are vulnerable.  The Justice Department says that they have protected two kids in this particular case.  So clearly, this is a huge, huge issue that Congress and this administration is worried about.  The experts say it's time to declare war on on-line child pornography, that this is happening so frequently, they have got to crack down immediately.  Others who know this issue very well say, quite frankly, that the on-line child pornographers are laughing out loud at law enforcement, they're so good at avoiding them—Rita.

COSBY:  Disgusting.  Norah, real quick, too, you know, you covered Washington for a long time.  This was really riveting, powerful testimony.  It looked like the members of Congress were just glued.

O'DONNELL:  They were.  And many of them, I think, quite frankly, were

really shocked that this was going on.  I mean, the story is an amazing

story.  It's stunning, it's disgusting, it's all of those things about what

can happen to a 13-year-old who is on the honor roll and who is class

president but admits he was lonely and immediately found—quote, unquote

“friends” on line.

But I think what you'll see is a reaction from members of Congress that there needs to be more done.  These hearings are not over.  They'll continue on Thursday.  They're calling Justice Department officials up to that hearing to explain whether or not they've been moving slowly on this investigation, as Justin and the reporter claimed today.

COSBY:  You bet, after all those names.  Norah, thank you very much.

And let's now bring in Ernie Allen with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, who also testified at today's hearing.  And we also have with us Del Harvey with Perverted Justice.  It's a group that helps nab on-line predators.

Ernie, I want to play just a real quick—this is another snippet of Justin's just so compelling testimony.  This is where he talks about a guy who met him on line.


BERRY:  Ken picked me up at camp one day to show me Chain (ph).  He took me to his home.  There I was sexually molested by Ken for what would prove to be the first of many times by him and other adult men.

With the help of my family and my psychologist, I now understand that my molestation by Ken was a turning point that set me on a path to self-destruction.  Afterwards, Ken apologized, promising me it would never happen again.  But it did.

By this time, I had formalized my webcam business.  I had opened a site called, where child predators could come and watch and offer me money and gifts to do what they wanted.

After my first molestation, I began to act out sexually.  I was reckless.  Part of me wanted to die.  And every day on camera, part of me did.  The next stage emerged with the help once again of Ken (DELETED).  I decided I should sell monthly memberships for a new site, (ph).  Ken offered to set up the membership section and host the business at Chain.  People could now use—using the site, programmed by Ken, pay me a monthly membership fee through Paypal and watch all they wanted.


COSBY:  And that beep was, of course, naming one of the perpetrators, possible perpetrators that authorities are now looking into.

Ernie, what hits home most to you about what you heard today?


Well, Rita, I think what's most powerful is that kids have become a commodity.  There is a huge consumer market for the sexual exploitation and victimization of children.  And these offenders prey upon kids.  They take advantage of them.  It's a seduction process.  And it is a huge challenge for this country and worldwide.

COSBY:  You know, Ernie, when you hear 1,500 men since Justin—who I

think was extraordinarily courageous to be out there today talking about it

from the age 13, what do you make of that voluminous, in terms of that many men?

ALLEN:  Well, what we're learning is that there is a huge consumer market for this kind of content.  We had a child pornography Web site a couple of years ago with 70,000 customers.

COSBY:  With 70,000 customers, Ernie?

ALLEN:  Paying $29.95 a month and using their credit cards.  This is big business.  It's more than child sexual exploitation.  Organized criminals, as well as pedophiles, have now learned that you can use the Internet to target kids, to victimize kids and to profit from it.

COSBY:  You know, Del, Justin gave authorities, as we heard, 1,500 names.  Yet two have been arrested.  Are you surprised that so few have been nabbed?  He had names.

DEL HARVEY, PERVERTED JUSTICE:  Honestly, no, mostly because it does take a while to look into the people who he's also named.  Plus, what's really worrisome and what people probably aren't thinking about is, generally, on average, a pedophile has over 100 victims before he's caught.  So each one of those 1,500 men could have 100 victims or more.  They've got to really make sure that they aren't overlooking any victims as they do these investigations.

COSBY:  You're right.  It might even be, unfortunately, broader than we've talked about.  You know, Del, at your group—and we've seen some amazing stuff—you guys have done incredible work, where you yourself pose as a teenager and try to lure somebody in.  What are the things that these predators do and say to get kids hooked?

HARVEY:  Well, they've pulled all sorts of things, actually.  We've had the same offers of, I'll give you a webcam if you'll appear on camera for me.  I'll give you a phone, so you can talk to me without your parents knowing.  I'll give you cash, so you can come and see me on the bus without your parents knowing.  There's always these offers of gifts, these offers of things to cement the child to the adult, where the child is depending upon the adult.

COSBY:  You know, and we're looking at some pictures of you actually talking to an adult who doesn't know, obviously, a male who doesn't know that he's being lured in by your group.

You know, how surprised are you, Del, when you hear just the amount in Justin's case, 1,500 guys?  Does that surprise you, that so many were so quick to pay whatever it was to watch his webcam?

HARVEY:  Honestly, no, because as Mr. Allen said, there were 70,000 members of another site.  These sites are huge.  And honestly, 1,500 men is not that many, compared to how many are out there involved in that $20-billion-a-year industry.

COSBY:  You know, Ernie, you also testified today, as I said, and you showed what I thought was very impressive, some of the investigative work that your group does to track down victims, also predators.  And I want to show a little clip of what some of the ways you guys are finding who these poor victims are.


ALLEN:  There was some evidence in the background, a television set with an advertisement that enabled us to narrow—by identifying the company that produced this cup, to narrow the focus to several Midwestern states, an envelope on a desk that enabled us to reduce the focus to one city.


COSBY:  You know, Ernie, when you get all these different pictures, which I'm sure are so tough for you and your group to look at, when you see the real, actual photos—these, of course, were hazed out—what kind of success rate do you have?  How often do you actually get the victim and get the perpetrator?

ALLEN:  Well, we're doing better, and federal law enforcement is making an aggressive effort.  We've reviewed 3.5 million images of child pornography.  Six hundred and sixty children have been identified.  Now, clearly, that's just scratching the surface.  But you have to find and locate the child not only in order to get them help, but it leads you to the perpetrator and we can bring him to justice.

COSBY:  You bet.  Well, both of you, keep up the great work and important work.

And everybody at home, please stay with us.  There's much more coming up tonight on LIVE AND DIRECT.

Still ahead: Do you know how to protect your kids from on-line predators?  A convicted child molester tells us what he did to lure in kids and how you can prevent the same thing from happening to your child.

Plus, tensions rise in North Carolina as the Duke University rape scandal heats up.  Will the release of DNA evidence tear this community apart and even lead to riots?  The mayor of Durham tells us how he is preparing to keep the peace.

And a mystery tonight involving money, power and murder, along with international intrigue.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It was Mr. Kissel that was the intended victim.


COSBY:  And the players, a suburban family with a scandalous and deadly past.  That's all coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.



BERRY:  I was paid by more than 1,000 men to strip naked, masturbate and even have sex with female prostitutes while on camera.  My business was assisted by adult criminals, including companies that process credit card payments.


COSBY:  And that was 19-year-old Justin Berry, who was lured into the sick world of Internet porn when he was just 13 years old.

Joining us to discuss what should be done to Justin's so-called customers is former sex crimes prosecutor Wendy Murphy, and also defense attorney Deb Opri.  Wendy, let me start with you, but I want to also first show a little more of Justin's testimony.  It is just so riveting and powerful.  Let's play a little more, if we could.


BERRY:  One afternoon, a few weeks after setting up my webcam, one of these men approached me on line with a proposal.  He would pay me $50 if I took off my shirt for a few minutes while sitting in front of my webcam.  He explained to me how to set up an account on, an instant on-line money payment system.  I was excited about the $50, an amount that struck me at the time as a huge sum of money.  Taking off my shirt seemed harmless.  I did it at the pool.  The money arrived, and I took off my shirt.  My viewers complimented me and it felt good.

The weeks that followed are a blur, but I now understand that by removing my shirt, I signaled that I could be manipulated.  More gifts and money arrived, along with increasingly explicit requests.  They wanted me to take off my pants, remove my underwear and eventually masturbate on camera.  The seduction was slow.  Each request only went a bit further than the last.  And the horror of what was happening didn't strike me at that time.


COSBY:  You know, Wendy, how disturbing is this for you to hear, just the volume of customers that this poor boy had?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  It's heart-wrenching, Rita.  I mean, it brings tears to my eyes.  I'm so proud of this kid because most kids who get seduced like this never escape.  They become drug addicts.  They become prostituted kids and then prostituted adults.  So I give this guy a lot of credit.

And I really do think that the key is the profit.  I mean, look, we're all going to have vulnerabilities.  There are always going to be kids.  The problem is, it's a $20 billion-plus industry.  I want to reduce the demand by shaming the users.  You know, we have deadbeat dads and posters and milk cartons and so forth.  I want to have posters up and billboards all over the place that say, Citizen pigs, and put the names of all the doctors and lawyers and all the customers you mentioned, Rita.  Let's see who they are because that's what they care about more than anything, being shamed.  We need to shame them because that's what's going to stop them from spending the money.

COSBY:  And Deb, let me show just that—just the amount.  I mean, this—some of these statistics are, unfortunately, staggering.  About 20 percent of all Internet pornography involves children.  More than 20,000 images of child porn are posted on the Internet every week.  And the number of child pornography images has increased a whopping 1,500 percent since 1988.

How do you curb this, and how do you go after these predators?  And do you shame them, like Wendy's suggesting?

DEB OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Well, you know, that is a little bit—it's OK, but let's put it this way.  It's access.  It's access, access.  The kids have the webcams in their bedroom.  Why?  Why don't the parents get a little bit more stringent?  Why isn't the government cracking down on the Web access for this kind of advertisement?  This child became a prostitute on the Web.  Why?  The answer is, Stop the access.  The government level, the parental level, educate, educate.

And as far as these people, they are sick individuals, Rita.  They will never go away.  Punish them to the severest extent of the law.  But you said it yourself earlier in the show.  How many thousands of people pay how much money a month to have this kind of access, and only two are prosecuted?  There's a problem.  There's a problem with legal enforcement.

COSBY:  You know, and Wendy, Deb hits it right on the head.  That is so shocking to me.  Two, two of these guys!  And the guy has a record, has names.  I mean, what more do you want?

MURPHY:  You know, it's unbelievable.  We certainly need more resources, and I think that's why Congress was paying attention as carefully as they were today.  We may be doing a lot, but we're not doing nearly enough.  They need gobs and gobs and gobs more resources.

And you know what I'd like to see done?  I'd like to see us sharing a whole new kind of sexually transmitted disease called a computer virus.  Anyone who pushes click at any Internet Web site that has child pornography on it gets a virus that kills the computer.  At a minimum, it's going to make it expensive to do repair work.  We have the technological ability to do that.

All child pornography is illegal.  Unlike adult porn, some of which is grotesque, but most of which is legal, this is all illegal.  We know where it is.  We have to hurt the sellers and the buyers.

COSBY:  And Deb, so what do we do?  Do we put a little virus and try to make that as a blocking to help parents?  Because look at these...

OPRI:  Yes, you know...


COSBY:  Deb, I want to show you one other number.  One in five children report being sexually solicited on line.  How can parents really monitor this?

OPRI:  You monitor it by keeping the computers away from the children.  As far as planting viruses in computers, it's a little extreme.  What we need to do is get more governmental regulation...


OPRI:  ... to stop the access to these children porn sites.  It's as simple as that.  You've got to stop the access.  As far as the individuals going onto porn sites for children, you know, it gets to the point where—when a little bit too much is a little bit too much and you're infringing upon due process rights.

MURPHY:  Oh, stop!  Stop!


COSBY:  I'll give you 10 seconds, Wendy.


OPRI:  ... extremes.  Why don't they just castrate the guy because he went onto the child porn site?

MURPHY:  Seventy-five percent of men in prison for child pornography charges admit molesting or raping dozens of children...

OPRI:  Wendy...

MURPHY:  ... each.  I say...

OPRI:  ... people go overseas...

MURPHY:  ... that's enough to stop talking about...

OPRI:  People go overseas...

MURPHY:  ... the free speech issues, Debra!

OPRI:  ... to buy children.  When you had the problem with the tsunami over there, people were—children were being kidnapped and sold for prostitution.  That problem is never going to go away.  The governmental...

MURPHY:  Wrong!

OPRI:  ... regulation and the access is going to have to make it more controlled.

MURPHY:  Prosecute!  Prosecute!  Prosecute!

OPRI:  Prostitution is...

MURPHY:  We need more money...

OPRI:  ... the oldest, oldest...

MURPHY:  ... to prosecute.

OPRI:  ... business in the world.

MURPHY:  You better stop talking about the 1st Amendment!


COSBY:  Both of you, thank you very much.

OPRI:  It's only because it's accessible, and it's got to end.

COSBY:  All right, we'll get you back.  And the problem is, how do you cut people off from computers?  That's a tough thing to do.

Joining me now is someone who knows the issue all too well, former child sex offender Jake Goldenflame.  Jake, first of all, look how heated it gets.  You're also the author of a new book, and it is called “Overcoming Sexual Terrorism.”  It is “60 Ways to Protect Your Children From Sexual Predators.”  How do you protect them, Jake?  You know, how do you—do you just say, Look, I'm not going to give you access to the computer?  Is that realistic?

JAKE GOLDENFLAME, FORMER CHILD MOLESTER:  The first thing that you do is you teach a child to have a sense of values by being a person of value in raising them.  That's what's missing again and again and again.  The only kids that I was able to get to, unfortunately, were kids who hadn't been given a good moral foundation.  Every time I ran into a kid that I was interested in who indicated to me that they had a sense of religious commitment or personal values, I knew I couldn't possibly get to them.  That's also what turned my own life around.  We got to find values again in this country, Rita.

COSBY:  Yes, what about, Jake, the Internet?  I mean, as we look at it

you know, and both—both of the women who we just had, great attorneys, both talking about just how easy it is to get on line.


COSBY:  I mean, Del Harvey with Perverted Justice, when she posed as -

you know, as a teenager, it was just a few seconds before some guy responded.

GOLDENFLAME:  Well, I received a suggestion the other day from a young woman in her 20s who's active in the Internet.  She's on  So is her kid brother.  And she said a very interesting thing to me.  She said, I don't think that any child should be allowed to use a computer and go on the Internet without being supervised at the time until they're 15 years old.  You know, that makes a lot of sense.

COSBY:  Yes, but is that realistic?  I mean, kids love computers these days.  And then on the flip side, Jake...

MURPHY:  Well, yes...

COSBY:  Jake, I mean, all right, what do you do?  You know, as someone who has been a child predator, are you always someone who is in their mind as active or thinking of that?  Do you have to keep yourself from being on line?

GOLDENFLAME:  No, I certainly don't.  I've been on line for a number of years.  I've never gone to any kind of a portal or a Web site offering sexual material of any kind.  It's not of any interest to me anymore.

COSBY:  All right, Jake.  Thank you very much.  And I hope folks at home are listening loud and clear, especially from Justin's testimony.

And coming up after the break, we'll meet one mother who took matters into her own hands and stopped an Internet predator before he could hurt her child.

Plus, the scandal rocking Duke University, allegations of gang rape.  We're going to give you a first-hand look as investigators try to piece together what really happened between an exotic dancer and members of the school's lacrosse team.



JUSTIN BERRY, MOLESTED ONLINE:  As more clothes came off, more people contacted me.  The compliments were endless, the gifts and payments terrific.  I thought I had achieved online what eluded me in real life:  I was popular. 


COSBY:  Well, today, 19-year-old Justin Berry told Congress about his terrifying descent into the world of child porn when he was just 13 years old.  And now, many parents want to make sure that their children do not fall prey to sexual predators. 

Well, our next guest took matters into her own hands, posing as a 14-year-old girl in order to catch sex offenders in the act.  We're joined now by Betti-Ann Adams and also Detective Mark Lounsbury of the Norwich, Connecticut, Police Department who helped Betti-Ann in her mission. 

Betti-Ann, in the most recent case, tell us what you did online. 

BETTI-ANN ADAMS, POSED AS 14-YEAR-OLD ON THE INTERNET:  Recently, I had watched a “Dateline” special for Perverted Justice.  And it sparked my interests right away.  And I went to the Web site and followed up on the dos and the don'ts, and basically I hopped online and did what I could to save these kids. 

COSBY:  And exactly what did do you?  And what did you say online? 

And what was the response you got? 

ADAMS:  I set up a profile as a 14-year-old girl.  And it's as simple as logging into a chat room.  And these men, they contacted me right away, knowing that I was a 14-year-old girl.  They have a picture, and they are well-aware of my age and the fact that I was a student.  And it happens as quick as that. 

COSBY:  Are you talking second, minutes? 

ADAMS:  Seconds, absolutely seconds, absolutely. 

COSBY:  Were you surprised?  I mean, obviously, you'd seen the “Dateline” special, as we all did.  But were you still surprised personally just to see how fast that came to happen? 

ADAMS:   I was.  I was, as a matter of fact.  My worries at first were, jeez, you know, what if no one contacts me?  What am I going to do, sit here for hours on end waiting for these guys?  But it wasn't anything like that.  It was quick, and it was simple, and it was sad. 

COSBY:  Yes, really sad.  And how old was this man?  What was his background? 

ADAMS:  You know, he told me he was 28 -- he thought I was 14 -- and to come to find out he was 30-something-years-old, as if it made a difference. 

COSBY:  You know, Detective, what happened?  So Betti-Ann contacts you.  What happens next?

DET. MARK LOUNSBURY, NORWICH, CONNECTICUT, POLICE DEPARTMENT:  Yes, she calls us up.  We send an officer over.  We take a look at the chat log, see what the situation was.  And under the circumstances, he had arranged to meet with her in a downtown area in downtown Norwich.  And the midnight shift crew got together and...

COSBY:  So you sent cops to the scene, is what you're saying?


COSBY:  And then what happened? 

LOUNSBURY:  Well, we had one officer, a female officer, that works with us pose as the 14-year-old.  And, basically, the subject shows up and approaches our officer, thinking it's the 14-year-old juvenile that he's intending to meet.  We make the arrest on the spot. 

COSBY:  And what did this guy say?  Was he surprised? 

LOUNSBURY:  Oh, they're always surprised, yes. 

COSBY:  Did he say anything striking to you?  And also, does he have kids? 

LOUNSBURY:  None that I know of.  No, his immediate response was to say that he was there to tell her that she shouldn't be doing something like this, and, you know, to convince her that she should go home, at 3:00 in the morning. 

COSBY:  Yes, right.  And I'm sure you rolled your eyes at that one. 


ADAMS:  Yes...


COSBY:  You know, Betti-Ann, what made you want to get involved? 

ADAMS:  Honestly, I had a childhood of my own full of perverts.  And, you know, one pervert to another, to me, they're all the same.  These people that hide behind computers, they're perverts, as well, but they're just more of a coward to have to hide behind a computer. 

COSBY:  You know, Betti-Ann, I hope a lot of parents and also kids are watching at this hour. 

ADAMS:  I do.  I really hope so. 

COSBY:  What advice do you want to have for them, as someone who went through this whole ordeal firsthand?

ADAMS:  You know, I have a 12-year-old daughter and a 9-year-old son myself.  And it begins at home.  It really does; it begins at home. 

Pay attention to what your children are doing.  If they are lacking attention, or if they're lacking love, sit down and talk to them, because the attention and whatever else they get behind that computer is not what they need.  It's not what they want. 

COSBY:  Betti-Ann, thank you very much. 

ADAMS:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And, Detective, both of you, keep up the great work that you're doing.  Thank you. 

ADAMS:  Thank you. 

LOUNSBURY:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And now to another alleged sex crime stirring controversy and dividing a well-known college community.  Students and residents in Durham, North Carolina, are rallying for justice in the case of a woman allegedly raped by several members of the Duke University lacrosse team. 

A 27-year-old dancer says that she was brutally raped three weeks ago when she showed up to perform at an off-campus Duke party.  I retraced the claims and also the evidence in this controversial case with one of the top private investigators in that area.  Take a look. 


COSBY:  This is the house where the woman says she was raped?


COSBY:  How far away is that from Duke University campus? 

POINDEXTER:  I would call this about 25 yards. 

COSBY:  What time do we believe that the two women arrived at this house? 

POINDEXTER:  Media has reported sometime around midnight on Monday the 13th

COSBY:  The neighbor told us that they came this way to go through the back door.  As we're looking at the back door over here, is there a reason why?  Is it because they're exotic dancers? 

POINDEXTER:  I would assume yes.  You wouldn't want an exotic dancer or a group of them coming through your front door right in front of campus. 

COSBY:  Now, you also heard a lot of noise.  From all accounts, have we heard that there were a lot of people in this yard that we're seeing—or at least in the house at that point?

POINDEXTER:  I understand that the neighbor has stated at least 30 people went into this house.  We believe there were significantly more. 

COSBY:  We know that, at some point during the night, according to neighbors and other reports, that the women came outside. 

POINDEXTER:  Yes, we do know that. 

COSBY:  And what have you heard on that? 

POINDEXTER:  Well, I understand from interviewing the neighbor here next door that approximately 30 minutes elapsed from the time that the two females arrived to the time they left.  And then they went back in the house at some point.  We're not real sure how long they were there.  We do know that there is a mysterious 911 phone call from a female at 12:53 a.m.

COSBY:  Who do you believe made that call at 12:53?  Because the girls may have been inside.  We don't know; maybe one of them was inside.  Maybe that's when the alleged rape was even happening. 

POINDEXTER:  We really don't know.  We really do not know who could have made that call.  Had I have come as an exotic dancer to a location to perform with one of my partners and I thought that she were in trouble, I would have made a call just to summon the police to the residence. 

COSBY:  So maybe the other dancer somehow got away, was able to call 911, find a reason to get police here, thinking something untoward was happening to the other dancer? 

POINDEXTER:  I think that would be a logical assumption. 

COSBY:  We're here in the parking lot of this Kroger.  How long did it take for us to get here from the house? 

POINDEXTER:  I think we made this trip in about five minutes. 

COSBY:  And we measured it; it was about two miles or so. 


COSBY:  What's the significance of this grocery store? 

POINDEXTER:  We know that, at some point, the victim showed up at this location.  We know that a phone call was made to 911 and that a police officer was dispatched to this location and found the victim here. 

COSBY:  And in that 911 call, there were some signals of distress. 

POINDEXTER:  Yes.  A statement was made by some party that there was a woman in a car that would not get out.  We assumed that that may be the victim not wanting to get out of the car, the automobile she was in. 

COSBY:  And as you just said, we know that the cops came here, found the victim, and then soon afterwards she gave this statement to police about being raped by these three men minutes later. 

POINDEXTER:  I believe that's true. 

COSBY:  Why do you think she came to this Kroger?  Why do you think she left that location, came here, versus some other location? 

POINDEXTER:  This may be a place that seems open, well-lit, safe and secure, where she felt she would be able to come and make a phone call to either the police, law enforcement authority, or family members. 

COSBY:  It also looks like it's the only 24-hour place in this area. 

Is there anything else even really open at this area so well-lit? 

POINDEXTER:  There is another grocery store down the street a little ways, Food Lion, but they're closed at this time.  So this one might be the only one that was open that night. 

COSBY:  We know that authorities executed a search warrant and actually went in the house two days later.  What did they find? 

POINDEXTER:  I understand that, upon executing that search warrant, they found broken fingernails, female fingernail extensions, and identification, and a cellular phone that belonged to the victim. 

COSBY:  Is that to you a sign of force of some sort? 

POINDEXTER:  Well, it says that she left in a hurry.  She left a lot of important things behind.  And the fact that the fingernails were broken off would suggest that there was some violent attack that occurred in that bathroom. 


COSBY:  And our thanks to the private investigator, Carlyle Poindexter, in that area. 

Well, right after the break, the mayor of Durham, North Carolina, joins us live to talk about the possibly violent effect this alleged incident could have on his community. 

Also, a murder in Greenwich.  The brutal killing of a millionaire leaves police baffled.  But could there be a link to his own brother's bizarre death a few years ago? 

Plus, the family of the New York grad student who was brutally murdered joins us for a LIVE & DIRECT exclusive to tell us what they're doing to now help other young women.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She said they were making racial slurs, they was calling here a (bleep) and all that.  And she says she remember that while they were beating her.  She did tell me she thought she was going to die.  She says she thought they were going to kill her.


COSBY:  And that was the victim's father speaking to us about his daughter's allegations of gang rape.  The 27-year-old dancer says several members of the Duke University lacrosse team brutally raped her on March 13th

Now, rising tensions in the community have her college campus, North Carolina's Central University, demanding justice. 

And joining us now with more is the mayor of Durham, North Carolina, William Bell. 

Mayor, I'm sure this has been tough on your community.  How is it handling the ordeal?  And just how serious, of course, do you take these allegations?  They are tough to hear. 

MAYOR WILLIAM BELL, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA:  Well, Rita, we take the allegations very serious.  But let me say that Durham is a community that is a well-educated community, and we understand the process that this has to go through, and the citizens of this community are willing to let that happen. 

COSBY:  Yes, how tough is it, though, for you to hear?  There have been just some isolated incidents.  Thank goodness, just a few.  But a couple of people have actually had some racial slurs at them.  When I was over there the other day, I did see a couple extra officers around the house.  I'm sure you want to do all you can now to keep things calm, right? 

BELL:  Well, we're doing that.  And don't mistake the officers that you saw there necessarily for that event. 

We have maintained a presence around the campus in that community.  That's one of the actions that the police department takes throughout the community of Durham.  And, obviously, with incidents such as that, you expect them to be over there. 

Let me say, in terms of what this has done to our community.  Durham is a community that is well-educated and has a very reputable middle-class African-American community, has a very rich heritage.  We've had good relations with all the universities in our community, including Duke, North Carolina Central University, our technical community college and North Carolina School of Science and Math. 

Obviously, we wish this had not occurred.  But right now, it's an allegation.  And we understand that, and we have confidence in our police department that they're going to do a thorough investigation and we'll get to the bottom of it. 

COSBY:  And real quickly, Mayor, have you spoken, I guess, to the president of the university, any of the lacrosse team players, or the alleged victim at all?  Or are you planning to? 

BELL:  I've spoken to the president of the university, President Brodhead.  We had a meeting last Thursday.  We convened a meeting and brought some of the leading African-American leaders to that meeting, and we had a very good discussion. 

We were all in agreement that we should let the legal process continue, and we expect to have further dialogue on this issue later during this year. 

COSBY:  Well, that sounds good.  Mayor, we thank you very much.  And I enjoyed visiting your city a few days ago.  Thank you very much. 

And now we have some breaking news coming out of New York City, this just coming in a few minutes ago, where a riot is erupting in the streets tonight.  Hundreds of Hasidic Jews are protesting the arrest of a 75-year-old man who was pulled over for using a cell phone in his car. 

Now, according to some reports, the man refused to give police his license and registration and struggled when they tried to arrest him.  Riot police have been dispatched to the scene to control the angry crowds.  We'll, of course, continue to bring you any developments in this story as they happen. 

And still ahead right here on LIVE & DIRECT, more than a month after the brutal killing of a New York grad student, Imette St. Guillen, her family is going to join us for a LIVE & DIRECT exclusive.  How they are keeping Imette's memory alive and how you at home can help.


COSBY:  And you're looking at newly released pictures of Imette St.  Guillen.  Just over one month ago, the 24-year-old grad student from Boston was found raped and murdered.  Her body was found in a desolate area of Brooklyn, New York. 

Imette was studying criminal justice at John Jay College in Manhattan and was supposed to graduate this May.  Last month, a bouncer who was last seen with Imette the night that she was brutally murdered was arraigned on first- and second-degree murder charges.  It's a case that we've been following closely here on LIVE & DIRECT.

Forty-one-year-old Darryl Littlejohn, who has a past criminal record, faces life in prison if he is convicted. 

And joining me for the first TV interview since Littlejohn's arraignment is Imette's sister, Alejandra St. Guillen. 

Alejandra, I can tell you, everybody who's watching the show tonight has been praying for and you your family.  How are you all of you doing? 

ALEJANDRA ST. GUILLEN, SISTER OF IMETTE:  We are, you know, hanging in there with the support of our friends and our family.  It gets more difficult every single day, but we are trying to do the best we can to honor Imette's memory and honor her life. 

COSBY:  You're doing some great scholarships.  And, you know, as we see these pictures, your daughter was so beautiful.  We feel we've all known her and had the pleasure at least to know her through you and your mom.  Tell us about these great scholarships that you're doing in her honor. 

ST. GUILLEN:  Well, we have—currently two scholarships are being established.  One is at John Jay College where she was studying criminal justice, most recently in New York City.  And there's a memorial service for her in New York on Friday, this Friday. 

And they are trying to raise $250,000 to set up an endowment for a scholarship in Imette's name.  And we are trying to, along with John Jay and Association for a Better New York, trying to spearhead that effort, as well as a scholarship fund we have set up here with Boston Latin School, where both Imette and I attended high school.  Again, a scholarship in Imette's name to honor her memory, to honor her commitment to justice. 

COSBY:  And, you know, Alejandra, we're putting up all the information for everybody at home, especially if you want to send any information and, also, even make any sort of donation for what an important cause. 

Why has this been also been such an important mission?  I've been so impressed with you and your mom, because you clearly both want to make a difference now. 

ST. GUILLEN:  Right, right.  Well, we want to honor Imette.  We want her to be remembered for how she lived, and we want people to be able, through her name, be able to proceed in their life and so forth. 

And Imette and I were both recipients of a scholarship set up in a woman who had been murdered.  And every year that we received the check, you know, we would say her name, and we honored her, and that's what we hope for with Imette's scholarship. 

We really just want, you know, other people to really remember who she was for how she lived, and also her commitment to justice, and continue the work that she was unable to do by being taken away so soon. 

COSBY:  You know, we are showing, Alejandra, a picture of Carol Stuart (ph).  That was, of course, the woman that the scholarship that you and your sister received.  That was unfortunately the woman who was also murdered.

ST. GUILLEN:  Right.

COSBY:  There's also some laws that I know you, your mom, Luke, all of you have been so brave through all of this, Imette's law.  What does that mean to you to have, you know, proposed, named after your sister? 

ST. GUILLEN:  I'm sorry; I didn't hear you. 

COSBY:  What does it mean for you that they're working on Imette's law?  And it's know it's just being proposed at this point...


COSBY:  ... but how does it make you feel to hear, you know, her name now taking such an important significance to so many people? 

ST. GUILLEN:  Well, we just—we feel that, you know, Imette was working towards justice for all.  And the fact that this work will continue in her name is just so important. 

This is a, obviously, very, very difficult time for us.  But we really just are trying to focus our energies on what we can do to make this—you know, to make this world a better place, to honor what she was trying to do in her work and in her life. 

COSBY:  Well, we really applaud all your efforts. 

ST. GUILLEN:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And, again, we continue to keep all of you in our prayers. 

Alejandra, thank you...

ST. GUILLEN:  Thank you so much. 

COSBY:  ... very much.  Thank you. 

And still ahead, everybody, breaking news about an arrest at the Department of Homeland Security.  Somebody was soliciting someone online.  That's what they're being arrested for.  The details, next on LIVE & DIRECT. 


COSBY:  And we have some breaking news just into us.  The deputy press secretary for homeland security has been arrested.  Let's go to MSNBC's chief Washington correspondent, Norah O'Donnell, with the late-breaking developments.

Norah, what do you know? 

O'DONNELL:  That's right.  Late tonight, the deputy press secretary to the Department of Homeland Security, a man by the name of Brian Doyle, has been arrested nearby here in Maryland on charges of trying to seduce a child and transmitting harmful materials to a minor. 

We are told by officials, law enforcement officials, that Doyle used -solicited a 14-year-old girl, who actually happened to be a sheriff posing as an online girl.  He was sending her, quote, “hardcore pornographic movie clips.” 

He was also trying to entice what he believed was a 14-year-old girl to buy a Web cam so that she would send nude pictures back to him.  And this 56-year-old deputy press secretary for the Department of Homeland Security was promising to also send nude pictures back to this 14-year-old. 

This is another shocking allegation.  I did get a comment from the Department of Homeland Security and a spokesman for Secretary Michael Chertoff who said, quote, “We take these allegations very seriously, and we will cooperate fully with the ongoing investigation.” 

But this is a sordid tale.  And it comes just, Rita, as we were talking earlier tonight about these hearings up on Capitol Hill where we're learning that there is a very sordid and sick online world where law enforcement officials estimate that there are some 50,000 child predators at any moment roaming the Internet—Rita? 

COSBY:  Norah, thank you very much.  And, again, just to recap what Norah was just saying, the deputy press secretary for homeland security arrested in some sort of sting there in Maryland.  We'll, of course, have more details tomorrow. 

His name is Brian Doyle.  And, again, that word just coming into us here at MSNBC.  We will follow this case and have some more details on it tomorrow, and get some reaction, of course, from Homeland Security.

Copy: Content and programming copyright 2006 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2006 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user’s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.’s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.