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'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for April 5

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Guests: Jossy Mansur; Joe Tacopina; Les Levine; Dave Holloway; Grady Judd; Peter King; Russ Ferguson; Houston Baker; Lisa Pinto; Vito Colucci; Philip Russell

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, mind-blowing development in two of the biggest crime stories everybody is talking about.  A sick and threatening e-mail surfaces from a player in the Duke University gang rape scandal.  But could his twisted words about a stripper actually help his case?  He was just suspended in the last few hours.  And wait until you hear who suddenly just resigned in the case.  More coming up in just a few minutes.

But first, a huge exclusive in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  Tonight, we have exclusive information from a man who says that he sold drugs to Natalee Holloway the night she died.  We‘re going to have more on that in just a moment because we have also learned tonight that Aruba‘s police chief, Gerold Dompig, is now reportedly off the Holloway investigation altogether.

Here‘s what he said to us in a previous interview.


GEROLD DOMPIG, ARUBAN DEPUTY CHIEF OF POLICE:  I want to state once more that I still believe that these boys have been lying.  They‘re still lying, and everybody knows that by now.  So there‘s no doubt in my mind that they know something, they are guilty of something.  I just don‘t know what they are guilty of.


COSBY:  And joining us now by phone with the big news from Aruba is Jossy Mansur with Aruba‘s “Diario” newspaper.  Jossy, what are you hearing as to why he was taken off the case?

Jossy, if you can hear me?  Jossy?  And we‘re trying to get Jossy Mansur.  Of course, we‘re calling him from Aruba, the lines are, of course, a little difficult.  We will get him in a moment.  But Jossy Mansur from Aruba‘s “Diario” newspaper reporting that Gerold Dompig, the chief, has apparently been removed from the case.  We also got separate information on that, as well, and we‘re going to have that information in a moment and explain as to why maybe it all happened.

But first, let‘s also go to another exclusive.  These are some details that you will only right here LIVE AND DIRECT.  A self-admitted drug dealer who is a known relative of Chief Gerold Dompig makes some stunning claims.  He told our own producer who is in Aruba that not only did he see Natalee Holloway the night that she vanished, but that he also sold her drugs.

In an off-camera interview, here is part of his stunning account of that night.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Did you meet Natalee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Did you meet Natalee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes.  I know about the hotel room.  I know about the hotel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  About the what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The hotel room.  Her—her departure from where she was left to the hotel room, right?  But she was on the way to here, and she reached (ph).  And I was down there.

Everybody wants to know where she‘s buried, like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, that‘s not what we‘re asking!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  ... dig her up—no!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I didn‘t ask that question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You won‘t get that answer!


COSBY:  And again, that was with our producer.  Before we go to the explanation of that, let me go first, if I could, to Jossy Mansur really quickly because I understand we got him back on the phone.  Jossy, first tell us about Gerold Dompig.


COSBY:  What are you hearing as to Gerold Dompig, Jossy?

MANSUR:  Well, he‘s been replaced officially, and a new man is taking over the investigation.  His name is Adolph Richardson (ph), or Dolphy Richardson, as we call him.  He‘s a man of good reputation, very active, very energetic.  And we hope that the case will move forward with him in a pace that hasn‘t happened before in the past.

COSBY:  And Jossy, real quick, you‘re saying that he has been taken off the case.  What again is the reason that you‘re saying he‘s been fired from the case?

MANSUR:  Because he‘s given out too many declarations that are contradictory, to begin with.  They‘ve had a lot of problems with him on other aspects in—in the investigation.  He says, on the one side, that this girl is under this and this and that, that these people never—the suspects never admitted to anything.  On the other side, he says that they admitted very clearly to having had sexual activity with the girl.

So all these contradictions have given the case and him and the police investigators a bad light, so much so that in Holland, the criminal experts, criminology experts in Holland have severely criticized as unprofessional the people who have been investigating this case, and they were especially harsh with Dompig.

COSBY:  All right.  Well, Jossy, please keep us posted.  And again, Jossy Mansur, reporting from Aruba‘s “Diario” newspaper, again, that Gerold Dompig, of course, who‘s the chief investigator on this case, has been removed for some of his contradictory statements that he‘s made to the press and a number of other people.

Let me now bring in Joran Van Der Sloot‘s attorney, Joe Tacopina, and also a well-known private investigator who is working with him, Les Levine.

Both of you, before we get started, let me play again—this is again

this is a well-known sort of self-admitted drug dealer on the island, so of course, we‘ve got to couch it that way, but somebody who is also a known relative, the brother-in-law of Chief Gerold Dompig.  And this is what he told our producer, again, in an off-camera interview.  I want to play it again because these are some very powerful claims, at this point.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Did you meet Natalee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Did you meet Natalee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes.  I know about the hotel room.  I know about the hotel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  About the what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The hotel room.  Her—her departure from where she was left to the hotel room, right?  But she was on the way to here, and she reached (ph).  And I was down there.

Everybody wants to know where she‘s buried, like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, that‘s not what we‘re asking!


COSBY:  And Joe, you know, of course, the suggestion here is by this guy that if she went back to the hotel room, that they‘re not going to find a body somewhere, that—different events from all these other accounts that we‘ve heard this night.  Joe, what‘s your reaction to this?

JOE TACOPINA, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT‘S ATTORNEY:  Well, you know, when you couple what this guy just said—and this, as you just said, is a well-known drug dealer on the island, it‘s a fellow named Boody (ph), who, by the way, happens to be the brother-in-law of Chief Dompig—and you know, I don‘t think it‘s coincidental that yesterday, there was a report that was released regarding the key swiping, a key that was issued to Natalee being swiped in the 3:00 o‘clock hour or 3:20 in the morning.  And then we have today news that this individual, Boody, who‘s the brother-in-law of Chief Dompig, is now on tape saying he knows about her going from where she was left to the hotel room.

You know, I think—why was this person not looked into for the last 10 or 11 months?  And you want to look at a conflict of interest, Rita.  This individual is married—his sister is married to Chief Dompig.  Now, look, you know, again, we‘re connecting dots here, but that seems to be, you know, the thing to do in this case.  And this is hard-core evidence.

I mean, yesterday we had the Dutch police report that talked about—you know, that you‘ve seen, Rita, that talks about a key that was issued, a hotel key issued to Natalee Holloway.  Whether she swiped it or not, it was swiped at 3:22 and 3:36 that morning.  This guy just said that he knows about when was left at the beach to the hotel room.

And Chief Dompig‘s related to this guy, and he‘s released or resigned today or fired, whatever.  You know, I—this case is in such a state of disarray, and it‘s really a shame for everyone involved.  It‘s not fair to the Holloway family, it‘s not fair to my client.  You know, I‘ve also heard today that the Aruban authorities or a spokesperson made an announcement that Joran is no longer the prime suspect.

You know, I mean, they—it‘s like they switch with the winds in this case, and it‘s really ridiculous.  The distortions, Rita, of fact and reality in this case, made through (INAUDIBLE) statements is overwhelming to me.  And I‘ve never seen the likes of it.

Hopefully, this new investigator will come in, right the wrong, look at whoever they need to look at, based on hard-core evidence like police reports, witness statements, things that I‘ve seen that I‘ve not heard talked about on the airwaves.  And hopefully, they‘ll then go after or investigate, I should say, the people that should be investigated, regardless of relationships those people may have with anyone else.

COSBY:  I agree.  And in fact, let me go through really quickly—I‘m going to bullet-point a couple of these things.  And Les, I‘m going to have you respond on this.  This is a couple of the other things.  Again, this guy‘s a self-admitted drug dealer, but as Joe points out, this guy is the brother-in-law of Chief Dompig.  And we do know that he was investigated by authorities, so authorities knew of some of this information.

He told our producer—he claims that Natalee approached him on the first night, asking where to buy drugs and alcohol.  He also claims that he sold Natalee and the other girls on the trip the drug ecstasy.  And he also claims that Natalee was on drugs the night that she disappeared, and he was worried about her behavior.

Les, how important could this be?  And again, you got a question of credibility of this guy, but it is interesting—Dompig‘s released from his duties.  This guy‘s his brother-in-law.  There‘s something funny here.

LES LEVINE, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, it would seem to me—pardon me, Rita, but my voice is going.  But it would seem to me that he should be the prime suspect going into this thing, and the police used tunnel vision in an attempt to focus on our client, Joran, and disregard all the other elements that would go into a proper investigation.

In addition, this guy Boody says that he has information regarding Natalee Holloway that he‘ll willing to sell.  I mean, if that doesn‘t implicate him in this crime, then nothing does.

COSBY:  You know, Joe, how do you prove it?  And again, if this guy‘s trying to sell his story, you got to question his credibility.  But how do prove that these claims are true from this guy?

TACOPINA:  Well, you know, that‘s—I guess, with good hard-core investigation, you know, like police are supposed to do.  They get a claim, you determine whether it‘s truthful or not by looking at the badges of credibility—corroboration, things such as—you know, he said she went back to the hotel after, you know, she was left at the beach.  Well, then you look to the hotel, you know, and see if there‘s any records of those keys being used.  Now, again, we don‘t know who used that key that was issued to Natalee at 3:20 in the morning.  We just don‘t.

But listen to what he‘s saying coupled with that—and you know, one thing about his credibility—you certainly have to question it—he did not know he was being recorded, Rita.  And there‘s something in the law that overcomes what they call hearsay, which is a statement that‘s made against penal interest.  There seems to be, the courts acknowledge, the law understands that there‘s a higher level of credibility when one is making a statement against their own penal interest because there‘s really no motives to want to do that.

COSBY:  And also, Joe...


COSBY:  ... just state for the record, too, Joe, that he just said he did not want to be seen on camera.  So of course, that—you know, he also sort of put that restriction, but didn‘t knew (ph) he was speaking willingly to our producer...

LEVINE:  Yes, Rita, let...


LEVINE:  Rita...

TACOPINA:  Wait a minute, Les.  Let me just say this one last thing.  And you know, this Frances Ellen Bird (ph), who was interviewed on your air, on MSNBC, who was one of the roommates of Natalee, way back in June of last year, June of last year, said—and it seemed insignificant, maybe, at the time, but said that she saw Natalee back in her hotel room that night.  Now, I don‘t know if all these pieces have been put together, Rita, but seems that they need to take a real fresh look at this investigation.

COSBY:  And guys, that‘s going to have to be the last word.  I got to bring in Dave Holloway real quick because I got to get reaction to all these big developments.  Dave, I know you‘re on the phone.  Real quick, what is your reaction?  And again, this is, you know, self-admitted drug dealer, but the fact that he‘s the brother-in-law of Gerold Dompig, what does this say to you, Dave?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE‘S FATHER:  Well, we need to clear up a little of the smoke and mirrors problem.  I provided the police with the documents that they‘re referring to, the hotel keys, as a matter of fact.  Beth obtained those immediately upon arriving on the island and then provided me with a copy that I provided to the police.

Joe failed to mention that that same code was used again at 11:02 AM and 11:08 AM prior to them getting on—or leaving to the airport.  So key number one, which we feel like Natalee used, was last used at 8:30 PM the prior night.  So that key was not used again after the trip was over.

COSBY:  No, that‘s interesting...

HOLLOWAY:  Again, this guy named Boody, there was probably literally 10,000 blond-headed girls on the island at that time.  I even had trouble identifying who was who.  You know, and we interviewed him five or six times during the course of the summer, never mentioned, then all of a sudden, he has a clear memory.  I don‘t buy it.  He was higher than a kite most of the time we talked to him.  So I think that‘s a bought (ph) witness.  I think it‘s, again, some more of the propaganda that they‘re putting out.

COSBY:  You know, Dave, what do you—it‘s so weird to us that he‘s

the brother-in-law of Gerold Dompig.  How strange is that to you, too, and

you know, and now hearing this word that Dompig‘s released from the case?

HOLLOWAY:  You know, I provided the prosecutor with two other witnesses just recently that has a lot clearer picture of what this Boody guy (INAUDIBLE).  Whether they take any action on it, I‘m just waiting to see.

COSBY:  Well, Dave, you please keep us posted because, boy, do you deserve answers more than anyone, you and Beth.  Thank you, everybody, very much.

And still ahead, we go straight to the source in the arrest of a leader in the Department of Homeland Security who is behind bars for soliciting a teen for sex.  And that‘s not all tonight.  Take a look.

Still ahead, two big bombshells in the Duke University gang rape scandal.  An e-mail from one of the players describing sick and twisted things, saying he wants to kill a stripper.  But could it actually help his defense?  And wait until you hear who resigned today.

And cops have a wild theory about the brutal murder of a millionaire that will blow you away.  Could the awful crime have been the money mogul‘s last big deal?

And why is actor Steven Baldwin bent out of shape over a porn store?  He‘ll join me live to explain why this porn pagoda has got to go.  It‘s all coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.


COSBY:  And LIVE AND DIRECT is getting new information tonight about the Homeland Security official arrested for allegedly trying to seduce a teenager over the Internet.  Brian Doyle is the Homeland Security department‘s deputy press secretary, but tonight, he‘s behind bars and is on unpaid leave, facing almost two dozen charges.  We‘ll tell you why his arrest is about to raise a furor on Capitol Hill in just a moment.

But first, joining us now is Sheriff Brady Judd of Polk County, Florida, where Doyle is facing charges, and also Jerry Hill, the Florida state attorney who is handling the case.

Mr. Hill, let me start with you.  How serious and disturbing are these charges?

JERRY HILL, FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY, 10TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT:  Well, the charges are very, very significant.  That‘s 23 felonies that he‘s charged with.  Under Florida state law, he could actually serve up to 115 years in our state prisons.  So pretty serious.

COSBY:  Wow, 115 years!  You know, I understand that he was showing—that he was looking at movie clips.  Tell us about what these clips were, and how graphic were they?

HILL:  Well, there were a series of clips, 16, that—all of which were one minute or less in length.  These were shared with a judge, who determined, as we believed the judge would, as any reasonable person would, that these were just obscene materials, extremely harmful to a minor, to a female 14 years of age, as far as this individual knew.

COSBY:  You know, Sheriff, how did you nab this guy?

GRADY JUDD, POLK COUNTY, FLORIDA, SHERIFF:  We put profiles on line and proactively go after those who are targeting our children.  When we put this profile on line for a 14-year-old child, we also were waiting for someone to come by.  We knew they would.  The predators always do.  And once the communication started, we laid the groundwork that this 14-year-old child was recovering from cancer.  He would literally, in the first communications, the very first time, console her, give her encouragement and then ask for illicit sex.

COSBY:  And Sheriff, where did he...

JUDD:  He identified himself...

COSBY:  Where did he think the girl lived?  Because he‘s in Maryland, right?  You‘re in Florida.  Where did he think that this girl—you know, so-called girl that he was approaching lived?

JUDD:  At that point in time, he didn‘t know.  But he wanted to communicate.  He gave his home phone number.  He gave his name and the fact that he was a deputy press secretary for the Department of Homeland Security.  We thought at first that, oh, it‘s some kid who‘s gone on line and got this guy‘s name.  But as we chatted on line, we did some back-up investigation and found out that the telephone number was registered to his residence.  But he followed the normal protocol that predators do.

COSBY:  You know, and also, I understand that he was, what, on line the night that you busted him?

JUDD:  He absolutely was.  We knew that we wanted to make sure that he was home the evening of the arrest.  He had stayed after this young lady, this 13-year-old girl, to get a webcam.  He wanted to share pictures with her, nude pictures, as a matter of fact.  So that particular day, we called him at the office.—he gave us his office number and his cell phone number—called him at the office with the ruse that, Mom‘s gone tonight, I‘ve got a webcam.  He said, Great, I‘ll be home by 7:00 o‘clock.

And sure enough, when we went to his door at 7:45, he was communicating with our undercover detectives on the computer when we knocked on the door, served the search and arrest warrant.  We found our communications on his computer at the time of the arrest.

COSBY:  Incredible stuff.  You know, Attorney Hill, this man works for Homeland Security, you know, which is the agency that‘s cracking down on child exploitation.  Do you believe that this guy, you know, is sloppy, that he thought he was above the law?

HILL:  You know, he was certainly sloppy.  Whether or not he thought he was above the law, I don‘t know.  But one of the reasons this case moved along as quickly as it did was we knew that he was compromising himself, and thereby national security, potentially.  His actions were most foolish and almost unexplainable.

COSBY:  You bet.  Well, both of you, good job in cracking down on this guy.  Thank you very much.

And joining us now is Republican congressman Peter King of New York, who chairs the Homeland Security Committee.  Congressman, you just heard Attorney Hill suggesting that national security may have been at risk.  Do you believe that?

REP. PETER KING (R-NY), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN:  Well, it‘s a really concern that I have.  And if not a risk with Mr. Doyle, certainly, it raises questions about the vetting procedures and the personnel procedures at the Department of Homeland Security because this person was hired, and he had a top-security—a top-secret clearance, from what I understand.  You know, he could have just as easily been communicating with somebody from al Qaeda who was posing as a 14-year-old girl, and they would have been able to blackmail him.  He could have been dealing with a foreign country, and they would have had such incriminating evidence on him.

And my concern is, how was he hired?  Why was he hired?  How much of his background was gone into?  I have reason to believe that there have been previous instances of strange conduct—you know, I‘ll leave it at that—by Mr. Doyle, and yet, somehow, he was still with the Department of Homeland Security.  I believe he come over from TSA.

And again, I think it‘s really important, which is why I have directed the subcommittee on oversight in the Homeland Security Committee under the chairmanship of Mike Rogers of Alabama to do an investigation of the procedures as to exactly how the Department of Homeland Security screens employees (INAUDIBLE) to give a person like this a top-secret clearance and to put him in a position where he could have not just—again, the damage he could have done to innocent people, but he could have compromised himself, and thereby compromised the department with top secret information.

COSBY:  You bet.  And in fact, let me show a statement.  This is from Homeland Security.  They released a statement just very recent.  It says, quote, “The department is cooperating fully with the ongoing investigation.  We take these allegations very seriously.”

Congressman, are you worried, again, that this may be just the tip of the iceberg and that there may be also other instances?  I mean, the fact that this guy was just—you know, and what the sheriff was saying to us earlier—had the badge out there in front of the webcam.

KING:  Yes, I mean, again, that‘s why we have to investigate this from top to bottom.  We have to find out, first of all, what other individuals could Doyle have been in contact with?  You know, could he have been involved in other situation that we don‘t know about, which could have compromised national security.  Also, we have to see what the hiring procedures are to make sure there‘s nobody else in the department with this type of clearance who could have this type background, or who has...

COSBY:  You bet.

HOLLOWAY:  And also, the fact that computers—you know, this was his government cell phone.  This was his government computer—that somehow, there‘s is no restrictions or no limits, and that he could do this with impunity and not be concerned that he‘d be caught—to me, again, there have to be better ways.  I don‘t think this would happen, for instance, in the CIA or other law enforcement agencies, intelligence agencies, such as that.  And I have a great regard for the Department of Homeland Security, for Secretary Chertoff.  They‘re going to have to get to the bottom of this to see, first of all, everything that Doyle did, and if there‘s anybody else that could be in a similar situation, but also, what are they doing to prevent it in the future?  What are they going to put in place to do all they possibly can to ensure that nobody with this type of background is ever again hired and given a top-secret clearance.

COSBY:  Yes.  Right.  Well, Congressman King, good luck with that investigation.  Keep us posted, please.

KING:  Thank you, Rita.

COSBY:  Thank you.

And still ahead: The alleged gang rape by the Duke University lacrosse team.  A sick and twisted e-mail from one of the players describing what he wants to do to a stripper will shock you.  And so will the big decision made by the coach that caught everyone off guard today.

And there is a wild theory tonight about why a millionaire who may have been in trouble with the law was found dead in his mansion.  Does it have anything to do with the murder of his own brother?  The details coming up.


COSBY:  And tonight, there are major developments happening right now in the alleged gang rape at Duke University, the investigation into that.  Just minutes ago, we learned that one of the players has been suspended after writing a sick and twisted e-mail.  Police say he wrote it after the alleged rape happened, but detailed horrible things that he wanted to do to a stripper.  And another bombshell in the case.  Late today, the men‘s lacrosse coach, Mike Pressler, surprised everyone when he suddenly resigned.

NBC‘s Michelle Hofland joins us now live from Durham with the very latest.  Michelle, what a busy day there.

MICHELLE HOFLAND, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  It is quite a busy day, a lot happening here at Duke University and also downtown at the courthouse in Durham right now.  First of all, previously sealed documents have been released, and of the documents, this one is the one that everyone is pointing to, Rita.  This one is an e-mail that the police say is from one of the Duke lacrosse players.  And let me read a little bit to you.

It says, quote, “I have decided to have some strippers over.  However, there will be no nudity.  I am planning on killing the b-----s as soon as they walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off.”  And it was signed with a jersey number. 

A Durham attorney responded in this written statement.  It says, quote, “While the statement e-mail is vile, the e-mail is perfectly consistent with the boys‘ unequivocal assertation that no sexual assault took place that evening.  The delivery stamp on the e-mail is 1:58 a.m., shortly after the party, which is further evidence of a lack of a guilty mind.”

Rita, that‘s not all that‘s happening here at Duke University.  The president of the university says that that e-mail is sickening and repulsive, and he today cancelled the rest of the men‘s Duke nationally ranked lacrosse team for the rest of the season. 

Also, the student who was named in that e-mail—because he is a minor, we are not saying his name—that student has been suspended for an undetermined amount of time from Duke University, but the university is not saying if it is because of that e-mail. 

And then also tonight, the coach of that Duke lacrosse team has quit. 

Details as to why he quit, we do not have those for you tonight, Rita. 

But still, there‘s a lot of information coming out, but the big question tonight is:  When will the DNA evidence come in?  That‘s the evidence that everyone is waiting for to see if there‘s any connection between the alleged victim and the lacrosse players, to see if they‘re able to connect the two together. 

We do not know when that could be coming in, either today—not today, but tomorrow, perhaps Monday or Tuesday.  Everyone is counting the days here, waiting for that DNA evidence to come in—Rita?

COSBY:  Well, Michelle, please keep us posted.  Thank you very much.  And if there are anymore developments, come back to us later on in the show. 

And we‘re now getting exclusive word on the latest developments from the alleged victim‘s father, who I sat down with earlier this week.  He told our show, quote, “I feel bad for the coach.  He didn‘t do it, the rape or the beating.  It is unfortunate that he has to suffer for what everybody else did.” 

Again, those are comments from the victim‘s father, exclusively to


So how are students and faculty reacting to all of this news happening?  Let me bring in Duke Professor Houston Baker, who teaches English, and also Russ Ferguson, who is the Duke Student Government‘s chief of staff. 

Russ, let me start with you.  What‘s the reaction, first, to the coach resigning, and now word that the student who sent this e-mail has been suspended? 

RUSS FERGUSON, CHIEF OF STAFF, DUKE STUDENT GOVERNMENT:  Well, starting with the coach, there was a lot of speculation from the very beginning as to what was going to happen with the coach, not because of necessarily the incident, but how he handled the incident right after it. 

He wanted to go ahead playing games until charges were filed and things like that, and the university stepped in and said that‘s probably not the best way to go. 

And so there were kind of speculation of what was going to happen to him, whether he was going to resign, be forced to resign.  Athletic Director Joe Alleva only saying that he‘ll be reviewed at the end of the season.  So it was a surprise that it came today, but not a surprise that it happened at all. 

As far as the e-mail, the actual contents of the e-mail are shocking and horrifying; I don‘t think anyone is denying that.  There is kind of a split of opinion on the e-mail on campus.  Some people saying that this clearly links the allegations to the lacrosse players and they should be charged, and this e-mail proves their guilt. 

Other people saying the e-mail was more of a facetious nature, and that this probably proves they didn‘t do it, that he was going home and joking around, and that...


COSBY:  But wait a minute, Russ.  Facetious?  How can someone—and let‘s put up the e-mail again—because it says, “I‘ve decided to have some strippers over.  However, there will be no nudity.  I plan on killing the b-----s”—obviously a bad word there—“as soon as they walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off.”  Where is the fun in this?  This is disgusting, Russ.

FERGUSON:  I mean, I think there‘s no disagreement there.  The e-mail itself is shocking and terrible.  But all we have is the e-mail.  There‘s an incredible lack of evidence as to what happened around the e-mail, if it‘s an inside joke or anything like that. 

And I‘m not saying it is, but some people are saying that they don‘t have enough information yet to say that this e-mail proves anything. 

COSBY:  Let me bring in the professor, because, Professor, you‘ve spoken out quite a bit.  And, in fact, you wrote a letter.  And I want to put—this is to the Duke administrators.  This was before all of this happened.  And you‘ve been pretty forceful in your feelings. 

You put:  “How many mandates concerning safe, responsible campus citizenship must be transgressed by white athletes‘ violent racism before our university‘s offices of administration, athletic security, and publicity courageously declare enough?”

So, Professor, now the coach has been—you know, has resigned, you know, obviously, probably quietly forced out, it sounds.  And this student who wrote that horrible e-mail has been suspended; is that enough? 

HOUSTON BAKER, PROFESSOR, DUKE UNIVERSITY:  Rita, I don‘t think that we can deal in the instance of verbal, violent and racist words hurled at women out of a Duke-owned university house by a group of white men, predominantly of the lacrosse team.  It seems to me there‘s almost no way to say that enough steps have been taken to...

COSBY:  Professor, what would you like to see done?  Professor, what do you think needs to be done?

BAKER:  Well, what I‘d like to see done, I‘d like to see a restoration, as my letter says, of confidence in the administration of Duke University, but, Rita, I‘d also like to see this enacted tier-one, traditionally all-white universities across the campus. 

There is a culture of violence, there‘s a culture of sexism, there‘s a culture of racism in all of these colleges.  It‘s predominantly male.  It‘s violent.  It makes life unsafe and unpleasant for neighbors, for students, for professors.  And it also compromises the basic intellectual academic mission of these institutions, Rita.

COSBY:  But, now, Professor—you know, their attorneys—I‘m sorry to interrupt you—but the attorneys for the boys are saying, look, there‘s a rush to judgment.  You know, in fairness to them, they have not been charged yet. 

BAKER:  Rita, I cannot comment on things that are sub-judiciary (ph);

I am talking about a continuous pattern of bad behavior on the part of the unit called the men‘s lacrosse team at Duke.  And I am suggesting that, all across the country, in tier-one, traditionally all-white universities, male, violent, misogynist, racist cultures exist. 

University administrators know about them.  I think that this is merely one instance in a long history of abuse and usurpation on the part of privileged, elite, white males on campus. 

It‘s not that it doesn‘t happen at HBCUs, as well, but here we‘re talking about a specific lacrosse team at a specific university where...

COSBY:  What is HBCU, for our listeners?

BAKER:  Historically black colleges and universities, Rita.  I‘m not making this either/or.  I‘m talking about what happened at my university, a great institution that claims great academic intelligence. 

And I‘m really surprised that the students are saying that, in an institution like that, that it would be considered by members of an elite student body “facetious” for someone to construct an e-mail like that. 

COSBY:  I agree.  It‘s disgusting.

BAKER:  I don‘t understand how somebody who is supposed to be an intelligent and elite university student or any group could suggest that that was—you know, that we need evidence surrounding this e-mail.  It‘s sick.

COSBY:  No, you‘re right.  There is nothing funny about it. 

BAKER:  Not at al. 

COSBY:  Both of you, thank you very much.  Love to have you both back on. 

BAKER:  Thanks, Rita. 

COSBY:  And let‘s now bring in private investigator Vito Colucci and also former prosecutor Lisa Pinto. 

Lisa, let‘s go right back to this e-mail, because I agree with the professor.  There is nothing funny about this, and especially in light now of, you know, this woman‘s allegations. 

If we could put it up again, it says, “I‘ve decided to have some strippers over.  However, there will be no nudity.  I plan on killing the b-----s as soon as they walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off.” 

What does this say to you about this person‘s frame of mind, Lisa? 

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  Boy, that is what you call a jock-slasher e-mail.  That shows a state of violent anger, misogyny that‘s present among some members of this team, including the three that participated in this act and those that sat behind the bathroom and listened to it. 

Rita, I said on this show a few nights ago that that woman was in the struggle of her life when she lost four fingernails struggling for breath.  And clearly, the author of this e-mail and his buddies think that‘s highly amusing to see a woman at close range in that state of mind. 

This is very scary stuff, Rita.  Someone on the team appears to be cooperating, because they leaked the e-mail to the police.  I just hope that person will give the police a blow-by-blow detail as to what happened at the party that night.  Who were the players?  Who were the three guys that are named?  Are those their real names?  And what did each one do?  And who else was involved? 

COSBY:  And, Vito, we‘re hearing also that they seized their computers.  Maybe they‘ve gotten that in sort of a standard search; we‘re not quite sure.

But let me put—this is the attorney for the boy.  And he‘s turning this another way.  He‘s reading it that this may actually be good news for the boy. 

So let me put his statement.  He says, “While the language of this e-mail is vile, the e-mail itself is perfectly consistent with the boys‘ unequivocal assertion that no sexual assault took place that evening.”  He also says that the stamp on this e-mail is 1:58, shortly after the party, which, he says, “is further evidence of a lack of a guilty mind.” 

How do you read it, Vito? 

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE DETECTIVE:  Well, after reading it today—and, don‘t forget, he ends this by saying it‘s writer, meaning his client.  He‘s trying to separate his client now from the rest of the pack over here. 

You know, I agree with Lisa 1,000 percent.  One third of these kids in the last three years have been brought into court on drunken behavior and all kinds of criminal things here. 

COSBY:  But, Vito, how do you read this e-mail?  And also, separate, I‘ve got to ask you, because we don‘t have a lot of time, regardless—and I‘m curious from your perspective, because I think you‘re great at this, Vito—there‘s something that triggered, because he‘s clearly furious at these—remember, there‘s two dancers who showed up—furious at them. 

So either he‘s mad because, what, they left, if you take it in an innocent sense?  Or he‘s mad because someone reported rape.  How do you read it? 

COLUCCI:  I read it where he could have been in a drunken condition.  He‘s a sophomore, maybe trying to impress the seniors.  But I‘ll tell you one thing, Rita:  I‘m going to use this, if I‘m the lead investigator. 

This is big stuff for me to put some pressure on this guy, OK?  Once one cracks, it‘s going to open the floodgates.  I‘m telling you, I think that‘s going to happen within the next week.  I can guarantee you.  It‘s a terrible, terrible e-mail, and the police have to use it for their benefit now. 

COSBY:  Lisa, let me show what they seized from this particular player‘s house who wrote this e-mail:  cash, computers, memory cards, hard drives, papers and drawings—and this could be the key—disposable camera. 

Why do you think the coach suddenly resigned, the season gets cancelled?  There‘s word that there may be some video, that there may be something out there. 

PINTO:  Well, these boys aren‘t looking too good right now.  

COSBY:  Well, they may not be looking too good on tape either, right? 

That‘s a possibility.

PINTO:  How sick and voyeuristic would that be if somebody filmed or took pictures of a young woman struggling for breath, getting raped in all three orifices by three men twice her size while the bathroom door was locked?

And maybe the e-mail, he was angry about the fact that her friend left, because they threatened to stick a broomstick up one of them.  You know, I mean, this whole thing is such a frightening example of a group, a mass violent sociopathy gone out of control. 

I prosecuted juveniles where people did things in groups, that I think a human conscience might think twice about doing alone. 

COSBY:  And, again, everybody, they have said not even consensual sex and said that they are innocent.  And we‘re waiting, again, for the DNA results...

PINTO:  Of course, innocent until proven guilty. 

COSBY:  ... which we believe is going to come back—absolutely. 

We‘re waiting for those results.

Both of you, thank you very much.  We‘re going to have you back soon. 

And still ahead, speaking of sex, there is a fight against pornography going on not too far from here in Greenwich, Connecticut.  And leading the charge—actually, it‘s in New Jersey, I believe.  And leading the charge is Stephen Baldwin.  He joins me live with the story. 

But first, a surprising theory from police investigating the brutal murder.  That‘s in Greenwich, Connecticut.  That‘s of a millionaire at a mansion.  Was it planned?  That‘s coming up. 



JAMES WALTERS, GREENWICH POLICE CHIEF:  This was not a random act.  We do believe that Mr. Kissel was the intentional target of this assault. 


COSBY:  Well, tonight there is a wild theory being reported about what led to the murder of a multimillionaire in Greenwich, Connecticut.  Investigators are looking into reports that Andrew Kissel may have hired a hitman to kill himself so that his kids could collect on his life insurance policy. 

Kissel was found stabbed to death inside his home on Monday.  He was expected to plead guilty to bank fraud charges.  And get this:  He is not the first one in his family to have been killed.  His brother, Robert Kissel, was poisoned to death by his wife in 2003. 

And joining me now is Andrew Kissel‘s attorney, Philip Russell. 

Philip, what do you make of this report that maybe he hired a hitman to kill himself? 

PHILIP RUSSELL, ATTORNEY FOR ANDREW KISSEL:  It‘s one of the more ridiculous things I‘ve heard. 

COSBY:  Is there any substance to it?  I mean, is there any validity as to why—I want to go up—you know, it said he was set to plead guilty to the tune of fraud charges up to $24 million; that‘s a lot of money that he owed. 

RUSSELL:  Yes, it is.  But there no leads that anyone knows about.  There are no suspects that anyone knows about.  There are a lot of potential suspects, but it‘s very early on in the case.  I don‘t think anybody knows who did this. 

COSBY:  You know, his father—and I was surprised by this—his own father made some statements, saying, “Andrew did bad things.  He took money from a lot of people.”  Again, this is his own dad.  “He was killed in an extremely vengeful, angry way.”  Did Andrew, you know, mention anybody that somebody was out to get him? 

RUSSELL:  No, he didn‘t. 

COSBY:  So where do you make this—because it‘s been looked into clearly.  The paper trail and the money trail has been looked into, right, I would think, at this point?

RUSSELL:  There‘s been an awful lot of investigation.  Andy cooperated with a lot of the investigation.  At this point, I think a lot of these theories aren‘t really theories as much as they are just pure speculation.  It‘s too early to tell what happened, except that he died tragically. 

COSBY:  Well, one thing that is also a fact is there‘s no forced entry into the house, according to authorities, at least from what they‘ve seen so far.  Some say he may have known his killer. 

RUSSELL:  Right.  But what does that really do for us, other than to narrow it down to the people who he knew, which is an awful lot of people?  And even among his investors and the people that did business with him, there are still dozens, and dozens, and dozens of people all over the country who might be upset with what happened with their money or what have you.

There‘s no clear lines yet.  And I think we need to wait and see how the investigation progresses. 

COSBY:  You know, fair enough.  But his wife was filing—suing, right, for divorce at this time.  What kind of relationship did he have with his own wife and where was she? 

RUSSELL:  They were living together and...

COSBY:   Where was she at the time?  Where was she at the time?

RUSSELL:  Well, I know that she‘s cooperated with the police.  And I know that she was with other people, and I don‘t believe that she‘s in any way a suspect.  So, you know, it‘s—she‘s been cleared of it, for all practical purposes.  It‘s very early on in the case. 

COSBY:  You know, there are reports that he had a lot of problems with alcohol dependency.  We‘ve seen bipolar disorder, cocaine abuse.  What do you know about any of these problems? 

RUSSELL:  Well, again, I don‘t think they had anything to do with what caused his tragic death.  At the time, he was doing pretty well, under all of the stress that he had to manage with just the criminal cases.

As I said, there‘s an awful lot of people that don‘t know anything about it that are doing an awful lot of talking.  We just need to wait and see what happens. 

COSBY:  And what kind of a guy was Andrew Kissel, in your opinion?  He seems like a very complicated man, by all of these issues we‘ve heard.


COSBY:  Even the comments from his own father. 

RUSSELL:  Yes, he was a complicated man, but there were certain simple truths.  He loved his children, and he died tragically. 

COSBY:  Well, Philip Russell, I do hope that authorities get to the bottom of this for his family and for everyone else.  Thank you for being here.  Keep us posted. 

RUSSELL:  OK, thank you, Rita.

COSBY:  And, of course, the Greenwich, Connecticut, police are now asking for help.  If you have any information regarding the Kissel murder case, please send them an e-mail.  They‘re asking that you do that to

And coming up, what would you do if a porn shop was moving into your neighborhood?  Live and let live, or fight it all the way?  Up next, actor Stephen Baldwin joins us to explain what he‘s doing about it.  He is fighting tooth and nail, fighting for his own kids and for everyone else‘s.  It‘s next on LIVE & DIRECT.



STEPHEN BALDWIN, AGAINST PORN SHOP OPENING:  Crime goes up.  And drug use goes up.  Sales of drugs goes up.  Prostitution goes up.  And harm to the community without question increases every single time this type of a business opens.


COSBY:  And that was actor Stephen Baldwin, who is on a mission against porn in his hometown.  Stephen is joining other citizens of Nyack, New York, who are fighting this porn shop, set to come open pretty soon.  He‘s fighting it tooth and nail at a town hall meeting two nights ago.

Stephen and others fought with supporters of the porn shop which is set to open at any moment.  Stephen now joins me with—first of all, when is it supposed to open?  I know it‘s been in the works for while.

BALDWIN:  Well, it‘s kind of in limbo.  Nobody really knows.  Similar to when this place first started coming, nobody knew what it was.  And there‘s just been a whole bunch of miscommunication, and misguidance, and et cetera, et cetera.  But we‘re not backing down, no matter what.

COSBY:  Yes, and I can tell.  Look, I mean, it was pretty compelling at that town hall meeting.  We had our producer, Adrianne Wheeler (ph), who was there with us.  And she just said it was so powerful.

It sounds like you got a lot of other folks who are in your corner now, too.

BALDWIN:  Well, exactly.  Here‘s what I think was the coolest thing about the town hall meeting.  It was nice to see the local Nyack people who live in the area come together, stand up to the village board, and say, “You guys, shame on you; you shouldn‘t have done this.”

COSBY:  Yes, they‘re livid.  There seems to be—why is this hitting such a chord in that community? 

BALDWIN:  Well, I think it‘s because they‘ve spent so many years since the ‘60s building up Nyack.  There were resident there that were in their 70s and 80s that were saying, “Hey, guys, we‘ve been here.  We built this place.  We made it the thriving community that it is today.  All of a sudden, because of some zoning law that is totally inappropriate, in our opinion, we have to deal with.” 

I mean, on the front door of this porno store, they just put up what is going be the menu of content.  It says, like, “Transsexual, she-male,” on the front door!

COSBY:  And this is close to, obviously, where kids go by, schools, right?


BALDWIN:  It‘s near a middle school.  It‘s near Nyack Christian College.  It‘s within a 9-iron of residences.  It is the gateway that goes down into Main Street Nyack, is where this place is going to be. 

COSBY:  I‘ll tell you what, stick with us.  I want to talk a little bit more about your last appearance here and a couple of other things when we come back.


COSBY:  More with Stephen Baldwin and why he‘s fighting this new porn shop, set to open any moment now, tooth and nail, when we come back.


COSBY:  And we‘re back now with actor Stephen Baldwin, who is fighting porn in his own neighborhood.  You know, Stephen, I have to talk with you about what happened yesterday, compelling testimony on Capitol Hill.

Justin Berry, now 19, but he was 13 at the time, when he had all of these male customers that basically lured him in on the Internet.  And everyone was watching on Capitol Hill.  Let‘s play a comment.  I want to get you to react. 


JUSTIN BERRY, MOLESTED OVER THE INTERNET:  They wanted me to take off my pants, remove my underwear, and eventually masturbate on camera.  The seduction was slow. 


COSBY:  You know, he gave the Justice Department 1,500 names.  So far two guys have been arrested.  How disgusting is that?  And here you are fighting it in your own backyard, something similar, exposure to kids.

BALDWIN:  And for the same, exact reason as you just saw, I mean, it‘s easy for kids to be affected and be manipulated, so on and so forth, when this type of content is exposed to them.  Here‘s my situation with my little situation in Nyack, New York. 

COSBY:  And you‘re getting—by the way, you‘re getting support from Catholic citizens.  You‘ve now got support from this group. 

BALDWIN:  Yes, an organization called the Catholic Citizenship has now filed a Supreme Court case against the town board of Nyack.  And...

COSBY:  And you got some complaints, though, the last time right after being on my show.  You got some e-mails from some Christians.  Tell us about that.

BALDWIN:  Exactly.  I got some e-mails because I made the comment, “Hey, if you‘re into porn, God bless you.”  And what I meant by that was, “I hope God blesses those people, with the knowledge of God,” so that maybe they‘ll get out of that. 

COSBY:  And how many e-mails—how many e-mails did you get for that comment? 

BALDWIN:  Oh, I got a bunch.  I got a bunch. 

COSBY:  But you‘ve also had some good victories, too.  And the town hall meeting, this place wanted to be open 24 hours.  What happened? 

BALDWIN:  This place has been given its permit to open.  It tried to change with the planning board and get the rights to be open 24 hours, seven days a week.  That‘s what this last town hall meeting was about.

The town board shut them down, no, they cannot be open 24 hours.  Now, with this legal case from the Catholic Citizenship, we believe that, because the town board issued the zoning permit without considering an environmental act, that now it was issued illegally. 

So we might be going back to square one in the effort to shut these guys down.

COSBY:  You keep us posted on your fight...

BALDWIN:  Thanks, Rita.

COSBY:  ... and your brave efforts for your kids and everybody‘s kids out there.  Thank you.  It‘s great to have you back, my friend.

BALDWIN:  Absolutely.  Thank you so much.

COSBY:  And keep us posted.  Thank you very much.

And that does it for me on LIVE & DIRECT, everybody.  I‘m Rita Cosby.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with Pat Buchanan filling in for Joe starts right now.

Hi, Pat.



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