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'The Situation with Tucker Carlson' for April 11

Read the transcript to the Tuesday show

Guests: Wendy Murphy, Tom Kilgannon, Aejaie Sellers, Barry Carroll

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  Thanks for tuning in.  It‘s good to you have with us. 

Tonight outing dead people in the classroom.  It sounds weird but California public schools could soon be required to teach kids about the sex lives of historical figures.  It‘s all part of an effort to force kids to approve of homosexuality.  We‘ll talk to a supporter of that legislation. 

And then another classroom controversy, this time in Alabama.  Would you want your children to watch this video in school?  An eighth grade science teacher showed it to his students, and parents are up in arms.  The school superintendent joins us in just a minute. 

Also ahead, the five greatest words in all of rock ‘n‘ roll: all dwarf KISS cover band.  It‘s an idea so good that one was not enough.  Tonight, the battle of the all dwarf KISS cover bands on THE SITUATION from—where else—Las Vegas. 

But first up, the latest in the Duke rape case.  Earlier today the D.A. in charge vowed, quote, “This case is not going away.”  That‘s in spite of initial DNA testing that does not connect any of the Duke University men‘s lacrosse players to the alleged rape. 

The prosecutor says he‘ll wait for a second set of DNA results, but the explosive allegations that White college athletes may have raped a black stripper have the campus and the city of Durham, North Carolina, in an uproar tonight. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  That young lady was brutally raped and it took you guys two days to do something.  My friend, I‘ve got—yes, I want those three boys in jail by 5 p.m. today or I‘m going to call the FBI.  I‘m going to ask for a hate crime investigation, because I‘m tired of the cover-up, and there is a big cover-up here. 


CARLSON:  Well, for more on the twists and turns of this case and the press‘ coverage of it, we bring in former prosecutor and current legal expert Wendy Murphy.  She joins us from Boston tonight. 

Wendy, thanks for coming on. 

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  Good to see you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  I don‘t know if these Duke lacrosse players are guilty of this rape or not, though there‘s some evidence that they‘re—they may not be guilty.  But I‘m really troubled by the presumption of guilt on the part of a lot of people in the media, including you.  I want to play back something you said the other night on Joe Scarborough‘s show.  Here it is.


MURPHY:  They‘re thinking, “I was entitled to do this.  I‘m a member of a wealthy white boy‘s school in a community that allows me to do what I want when I want.”  They‘ve gotten away with a lot for a very long time.  Why not go home and celebrate?  You don‘t think you‘re going to get in trouble.  If she does go to police, who‘s going to believe her?  She‘s a black stripper.  That‘s what they‘re thinking. 


MURPHY:  That‘s what they‘re thinking?  Now how do you know what they‘re thinking?

MURPHY:  Rather convenient you didn‘t play the setup question which was, let‘s read into this e-mail for a minute what might be going through their minds. 

CARLSON:  Right.

MURPHY:  So would have been nice to give context to that comment. 

CARLSON:  OK.  That is a semi-fair point.


CARLSON:  But now that you‘ve stated it, I still think you‘re still going to have trouble explaining how you, if you‘re not a clairvoyant, would know what they‘re thinking.  How did you know?

MURPHY:  The question was what does this e-mail reflect?

CARLSON:  Right.

MURPHY:  One guy was saying it suggests that they know they‘re innocent because they didn‘t mention the rape, and I said, well, here‘s another interpretation, Tucker, which is reasonable.

CARLSON:  Where, here‘s—this...

MURPHY:  And you forgot about the presumption of innocence.  But let me tell you something, the presumption of innocence is not justification to trash, destroy a human being who has clearly suffered, or to lie and spin evidence. 

CARLSON:  And you will not—you will see neither of those on this show.  I‘m neither attacking this woman, nor lying nor spinning.  I‘m merely asking how you can—hold on how...

MURPHY:  I‘m talking about the defense attorneys. 

CARLSON:  How you can say, and I‘m quoting you back to you, “They were thinking, ‘I was entitled to do this.  I‘m a member of a wealthy white boys school that allows me to do what I want, when I want‘.”  What did their race have to do with this?

MURPHY:  Tucker, how about reading the e-mail that we were discussing?

CARLSON:  It doesn‘t mention race. 

MURPHY:  And we were analyzing—no, the e-mail suggests a very serious racial component, because it‘s in the immediate aftermath of this horrible thing that happened to a black woman. 

CARLSON:  You said—you said just the other day that the defense team, these boys have hired, is quote, “exploiting social prejudices against strippers.” 

Now, everybody, apart from maybe you, knows the truth, which is the testimony of an ordinary person is different from the testimony of someone who hires herself out to dance naked in front of and, yes, in some times sleep with people, strangers, right?  They‘re different.  It‘s OK to have a bias against strippers in this case, isn‘t it?

MURPHY:  No.  Look, when you say things out loud like that, do you hear yourself?  Do you go home and do you just bang your head on the wall?

CARLSON:  What do you mean, do I hear—not only do I hear myself, yes, because that is reality. 

MURPHY:  Are you kidding me?  Look, we have a criminal justice system, Tucker.  We have a criminal justice system, but I think henceforth we‘ll never let you sit in judgment on any jury ever.  Because it doesn‘t matter...

CARLSON:  If you‘re saying the truth that every single American knows?

MURPHY:  ... whether you come from the lowest walks of life or the wealthy white boys institution, when you come into the criminal justice system, the great equalizer...

CARLSON:  The wealthy white boys institution?

MURPHY:  ... it doesn‘t matter who you are, we judge you as equal human beings. 

CARLSON:  What a terrible thing to say, Wendy.

MURPHY:  What a great idea.  What an American notion.  We judge people on equal levels in the criminal justice system, except for you.  Remind me never to pick you for a jury. 

CARLSON:  Wendy, if you have a woman who is hiring her body out to other people, that doesn‘t mean that she wasn‘t raped and I‘m not claiming she wasn‘t raped, but if she was raped the men who raped her deserve prison and I‘ll be the first to say that. 

MURPHY:  Blah, blah, blah. 

CARLSON:  I‘m merely saying—not blah, blah, blah.  I‘m merely saying...

MURPHY:  You don‘t have to say these gratuitous things. 

CARLSON:  They‘re not gratuitous at all.  You just said that, you know, I‘m not treating her as a human being.  I‘m merely saying that her testimony about matters of sex is to be taken by ordinary commonsense people a little differently than the testimony of someone who isn‘t a crypto-hooker. 

MURPHY:  She‘s entitled—she‘s entitled to less credibility, per se, because of what she does for a living?  Are you kidding me?  Look.  Look, let me tell you something, you want to judge people by their past behavior...

CARLSON:  Let me tell you something, Wendy.  If these boys are proved innocent I hope you get on the screen and apologize.  Because you are convicting them before they‘re even convicted.

MURPHY:  No, I‘m not saying anybody is guilty, you know.

CARLSON:  Yes, you are.

MURPHY:  I‘m not saying anyone in particular is guilty, but I am saying this.  It takes a lot of gall to say that wealthy white boys on a lacrosse team from a fancy university are by definition entitled to more credibility than a poor black stripper. 

CARLSON:  I‘m not—I‘m not saying that at all, and I never injected race into this.  What a demagogue you are, Wendy.  It only works so good (ph).  It doesn‘t work on this show.

MURPHY:  You absolutely said that.  Take the race out.  The poor blank stripper is entitled to less credibility.  You know, these guys actually, a 1/3 of them have criminal records.  Some of them have been, according to neighbors, reportedly been involved in not only carousing activity but other sexual offenses. 

CARLSON:  All of which is relevant. 

MURPHY:  You know what?  You know what?  Let me say something.

CARLSON:  All of which is relevant to this case, as far as I‘m concerned. 

MURPHY:  No, no.  Let me tell you something.  They are entitled to be judged fairly, too, and they‘re not more guilty because they have a history of carousing.  They‘re entitled to be judged fairly, too, which means not based on prejudice about their bad behavior in the past. 

CARLSON:  Keeping in mind who they are, what they‘ve done, what they‘ve said, how credible they‘ve been in the past, of course.  Every American knows that except you.  Weird. 

MURPHY:  No.  No, you have to judge...

CARLSON:  Wendy Murphy, I‘m sorry, we‘re out—we‘re out of time, but I have the sense our viewers will get a chance to hear exactly what you think on this subject for many weeks to come.  I hope on this show once again.  Wendy Murphy, thanks. 

MURPHY:  You bet. 

CARLSON:  We turn now to the second big story of the night and that would be immigration.  Yesterday‘s nationwide rally showed one side of the story as hundreds of thousands demonstrators took to the streets demanding citizenship for illegal aliens. 

But there is another side, too.  They are anti-immigration activists, and they describe themselves, in this case anyway, as mad as hell.  Tom Kilgannon is the president of the Freedom Alliance, which is launching a movement called the I‘m Mad as Hell and I‘m Not Going to Take it Anymore Coalition.  Mr. Kilgannon joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.

Mr. Kilgannon, thanks for coming on. 

TOM KILGANNON, PRESIDENT, FREEDOM ALLIANCE:  Tucker, it‘s a pleasure to be with you. 

CARLSON:  So what‘s the—not a very subtle name for your group, not that I disagree with it.  What is—sum up what the I‘m Mad as Hell and I‘m Not Going to Take it Anymore Coalition wants on immigration?

KILGANNON:  Well, Tucker, what we‘re asking Americans to do is to go to our web site at and sign a petition and let the senators who are debating this immigration bill, let them know just how mad you are and how frustrated.  Because I see it all across the country.  I sense the frustration.  I talk to people every day.  And they are mad as hell that the Congress is not enforcing our laws and not enforcing our borders when it comes to illegal immigrants. 

We saw this yesterday.  We saw it over the weekend where immigrants were taking to the streets, many of them illegal, we are told, and trying to influence our Congress, influence our legislation and influence our culture.  I think we really need to crack down on this and stop allowing illegals to influence our laws, our culture and our legislation. 

CARLSON:  Well, you‘ve done something clever and I think very interesting.  You‘ve had the Mexican Constitution translated, and you have found a couple of pretty telling articles in it. 

Here‘s article 33.  Quote, “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.” 

Article 32, “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under a quality of circumstances for jobs.”  Amazing. 

Article 11 says that Mexican citizens can arrest illegal aliens themselves and hand them over to police for prosecution.  Mexico is just—is hell on illegal immigrants.  Is that a useful model?

KILGANNON:  They certainly are, and they‘re enforcing their laws.  And they would not allow what we saw over the weekend in the streets of America to take place in Mexico. 

You do not have the same First Amendment rights if you‘re an illegal alien or a foreigner in Mexico.  You do not have the same equal employment opportunities that you do here in the United States. 

So I think our politicians should take a page out of Mexico‘s playbook and begin to enforce our laws and our borders in the same way that Mexico does.  You know, the Mexico southern border is—is one on which they clamp down a great deal, and they don‘t allow illegals to come over that border. 

CARLSON:  They certainly don‘t.

KILGANNON:  The same thing here in our country.

CARLSON:  They throw them in jail.  Now you‘re, I think it‘s fair to say, a conservative group. 


CARLSON:  And I‘m conservative, of course.  What bothers me, though, about the conservative critique of immigration is that often what goes unmentioned, and that is big business is supporting illegal immigration, and so is the president.  And I guess I wonder why conservatives don‘t point that out more.  I mean, the liberal left supports it, as well, but so does this purportedly conservative president. 

KILGANNON:  Well, look, I think we ought to be clamping down, as well, on businesses who are hiring illegal aliens.  Clearly, they‘re creating a demand for illegal aliens in this country.  And—and I think the Senate and the president to a certain degree are—are pandering to that community. 

Look, Tucker, I talked to a friend today who works in the amusement industry, and this is an industry that relies heavily on temporary workers for summer employment.  But he and all his colleagues in his industry are making sure that those they hire for this summer have all their paperwork and have all their visas and their documents in order. 

And so not every American businessman is circumventing the laws. 

CARLSON:  Of course not.

KILGANNON:  There are those out there who are honest.  And so if an industry which gets 90 percent of its annual income in three months can—can make sure that they‘re hiring illegals...

CARLSON:  Of course.

KILGANNON:  ... then every American business should be able to do that. 

CARLSON:  Of course they can.  Wouldn‘t you like to hear the president say that? 

KILGANNON:  I would. 

CARLSON:  And wouldn‘t you finally like the president to get up and say, “Look, we need to control our borders before we can even have a conversation about immigration.  Let‘s build a wall along our southern border.” 

Why isn‘t he saying that?

KILGANNON:  I would like to hear him clamp down on businesses, and I would like to hear him endorse the idea of a wall.  Look, Tucker, aesthetically nobody wants to see a wall on the southern border. 

CARLSON:  It‘s a pretty ugly border anyway, Tom. 

KILGANNON:  But we have gotten to the point where we have to do that. 

The situation has gotten so bad that we are left with no alternative...

CARLSON:  I agree with that.

KILGANNON:  ... on the border—except to put a wall on the border. 

CARLSON:  I hope you‘ll tell the president.  Tom Kilgannon, he will listen to you.  He will listen to groups like yours.  And so give him hell. 

KILGANNON:  I hope so. 

CARLSON:  Thanks.

KILGANNON:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  Still to come, rewriting history, literally.  California legislators want to force kids to read gay-friendly textbooks.  Have they crossed the line from education to propaganda?  And do kids really need to know who famous—which famous dead Americans were gay and who they may have slept with?  I don‘t know.  You be the judge.

Plus, an Alabama teacher running for office mixes politics with science.  We‘ll play you the anti-Bush video he showed his students when we come back. 


CARLSON:  Still ahead, a web site called has plenty of teachers hot under the collar.  We‘ll tell you why. 

Plus, my bow-tie.  It‘s gone.  I‘ll tell you why.  Stay tuned.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

Tonight‘s “Under the Radar” segment comes to us from the great state of California.  The state Senate there is considering a bill that would require public schools to teach students positive things about historical figures who are believed to be gay. 

Critics say this amounts to propaganda, not to mention outing dead people.  Activists like my next guest call it decriminalizing history. 

Aejaie Sellers is executive director of the Billy DeFrank Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender Community Center.  That‘s in San Jose, California.  She joins us tonight from Mountain View, California. 

Aejaie Sellers, thanks for coming on. 


AND TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY CENTER:  Thank you, Tucker.  Good evening. 

CARLSON:  The bill says that kids ought to hear, quote, “lessons on the contributions of people who are lesbian, gay, transsexual, bisexual or transgender to the economic, political and social development of California and the U.S.”

That‘s propaganda.  That‘s not history.  Any time you tell people they have to learn about the contributions of any group, whether it‘s gays or bassoonists or stamp collectors, it‘s propaganda. 

SELLERS:  I don‘t think that it‘s propaganda when you have fact that people have contributed to the development of California both economically, politically and socially.  I think it becomes propaganda when you‘re pushing an agenda. 

We‘re not pushing an agenda here.  We‘re asking to have historical figures who have made advances to our community and to our state and to our country to be recognized for those and that their perspective be brought forth, also. 

CARLSON:  But why this—why just advance—OK, but why just—this is where we get to the propaganda part.  Why just advances?  I mean, presumably you‘re not going to teach about, I don‘t know, Jeffrey Dahmer or Patient Zero.  And I understand why from a political point of view. 

But history is the study of what happened and what happened is both good and bad.  And that applies to every group, not just gay people but every single group.  Why not teach the whole history?

SELLERS:  Yes.  I think we need to talk about the whole history, and the whole history is really objective and not subjective and that we really need to be frank about the whole discussion and talk about all of them. 

And whether they‘re African-Americans or American Indians or lesbian or gay, men, women, we need to contribute and talk about all of their contributions as a whole. 

CARLSON:  But why just their contributions?  Your perspective and your goal here is clear, and I‘m not even attacking it.  I‘m just noting it.  You want kids to like gay people. 

SELLERS:  I don‘t necessarily know that I...

CARLSON:  But why question is, why is it a school‘s job to get kids to like a group?  Why not Lutherans, right?  Or any other group?  I mean, it‘s...

SELLERS:  Well, I think it‘s there become there‘s a safety issue involved. 

CARLSON:  Oh, come on.

SELLERS:  I mean, certainly this—this study came through the California Safe Schools Coalition in a partnership with the Gay-Straight Alliance Group, and their survey brought up information that, you know, 67 percent of students who know about LGBT issues in their public schools feel safer, where 40 percent of kids who don‘t feel threatened. 

CARLSON:  That is—that is so phony.  I mean, come on.  As if, if you don‘t teach this, children are going to get hurt.  You just—you ban violence in schools, and you enforce it the best you can.  It doesn‘t mean to teach propaganda.

SELLERS:  It would be nice to ban violence in schools but we know that that doesn‘t happen. 

CARLSON:  What do you mean it doesn‘t happen?  There‘s a ban in every school in America.

SELLERS:  And unfortunately, there‘s still a lot of bullying and threatening that goes on.  And if you can talk about the issues and you can bring the issues up for people to discuss, then it becomes less of a threat and less of an issue that people want or feel that they need to defend themselves against. 

CARLSON:  That is—that is an awfully heavy-handed way to do it.  But let‘s move on quickly to the practical effects of this.  If you‘re going to teach the history of California or America through this gay lens, you‘re going to have to make assumptions.

SELLERS:  It‘s not just a gay lens. 

CARLSON:  That‘s what the bill says.  And I read through the relevant part of the bill just a second ago.  You‘re going to have to make assumptions about people‘s sexuality.  So like first of all, how do you know a dead historical figure was gay or not gay?  And secondly, why should you care?

SELLERS:  I think—I think, first of all, Tucker, that the bill really doesn‘t reflect—it talks about the social, economic and political of current and relative history and most recent.  We‘re not looking to go back and out people.  This bill is not about that. 

This bill is about providing information around a group of people that have had an influence in social politics and economics in our state and has made a great influence—we‘ve got roughly over two million people in the state of California who identify with the LGBT community. 

CARLSON:  Right.

SELLERS:  And these kids who are leaving high school and either going on to college or going on to work in the state of California are probably going to come across someone who identifies with the LGBT community. 

CARLSON:  I‘m not suggesting that schools or anyone else...

SELLERS:  And they need some level of understanding of where the perspective in that population is coming from. 

CARLSON:  But you have to—but you have to have freedom of thought here.  You have to have room for people to say, “Look, I disagree.  I disagree with your ideas.  I disagree with the way you live.”  You have to have diversity, intellectual diversity here. 

And I know as well as you do that‘s not the aim of bill.  The aim of this bill is to impose uniformity: you have to think this. 

SELLERS:  And I don‘t think that it‘s about thinking this.  I think it‘s really about a discussion of history, and history is a reflection of our past.  And it gets interpreted many times, over and over again. 

And we need to go back and we need to look at these people and understand that they had a certain perspective that they were viewing our society through.  And whether they were politicians or economics or business owners, they affect our—the way California works and lives.

CARLSON:  All right.

SELLER:  And we need to understand that, because they identified as gay, lesbian, transgender or bisexual, that they had a much different perspective, and that perspective needs to be discussed. 

CARLSON:  Well, I hope—I hope in so doing—and I bet you this bill will pass, being California can and all.  I hope you‘ll respect the perspectives of other people, minority perspectives. 

SELLERS:  Most definitely. 

CARLSON:  Good, I hope so.  Aejaie Sellers, thanks a lot for joining us.

SELLERS:  Thanks, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Still to come, some 750 school districts around the world have banned students from using the teacher rating web site—get a pen now—  Wait a second.  So teachers can judge, but they can‘t be judged in return?  What a deal.  We‘ll debate that next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

Here‘s a story that has a lot of parents in Lester, Alabama, pretty angry.  An eighth grade science teacher reportedly showed his students a video clip laced with profanities and aimed squarely at President Bush, his administration, as well as his supporters.  Here‘s a sample of the video Steve White of West Limestone High School let his kids watch.  Take a look. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing):  Been bashed and battered and bruised and beaten, been abused and misused, and I‘ve been mistreated.  I‘ve been up and down and still I feel you‘re (expletive deleted). 

And I‘ve looked at it from your side and I‘ve looked at it from mine.  And I know you had a hard time when you were only 9.  But that was long ago and now there‘s just no denying you‘re an (expletive deleted).


CARLSON:  We had to beep out the many references to the president as an a-hole.  Mr. White, the teacher, still has his job, though, and as far as we know, he‘s still running for a seat in the state house as a Democrat. 

Here to explain what he knows about Mr. White‘s actions is Dr. Barry Carroll, the superintendent of Limestone County schools.  Dr. Carroll joins us tonight from Athens, Alabama. 

Dr. Carroll, thanks for coming on. 


CARLSON:  This is so over the top.  Why don‘t you just fire this guy? 

Why does he still have his job?

CARROLL:  Well, Mr. White has been on our system for 10 years and has a clean record for that 10-year period of time that he‘s worked in the Limestone County schools. 

Of course, when this incident came to my attention, I shared that information with our board members, made them aware of it.  And our administration, of course, was aware of it. 

And we did take action against Mr. White.  This type of film strip, this type of video in the classroom is certainly not part of the curriculum.  It certainly will not be tolerated.  It‘s inappropriate for the classroom, and we were very disturbed by it. 

CARLSON:  Yes, I agree with that.  And I would agree with that if it was attacking John Kerry.  I don‘t think you ought to be partisan in the classroom if you‘re the teacher.  But are you going to fire him?  Is he going to be fired?

CARROLL:  Well, I can‘t—I‘m not going to address that at this point.  That situation with the film strip was addressed.  We addressed that with him.  And we took action against him.  He was not fired, I‘ll tell you that, for that particular incident. 

But he was—he was very remorseful for showing that in the classroom, understood that he made a mistake.  It certainly was a mistake.  It was very inappropriate and will not be tolerated in our school system. 

CARLSON:  Christy Jackson (ph), whose son is in Mr. White‘s eighth grade class, told a local newspaper that this teacher required her boy to say, quote, “John Kerry rocks” every day in class.  It seems to me he should be fired just for that.  I mean, I don‘t really understand why this man has his job still. 

CARROLL:  Well, that particular situation just came to my attention this afternoon.  I was not aware of that.  You know, when things happen in the classroom, parents need to report that to the administration and allow our administration to take action to investigate it and that‘s what we do. 

CARLSON:  OK.  But now that—that‘s such an abuse of power, though. 

He has power over these kids.  He‘s their science teacher.

CARROLL:  I agree.

CARLSON:  He determines their grade.  I mean, what do you have to do to get canned?

CARROLL:  Well, I think—first of all, you made a very good point.  He‘s a science teacher.  There‘s no place in the classroom—in the science classroom for this type of film strip.  This is not a political science.  Even if it were a political science classroom, this is inappropriate. 

CARLSON:  OK, so...

CARROLL:  Whether you like the president or whether you don‘t like the president or whether you agree or disagree. 

CARLSON:  Absolutely.  It has nothing to do—and I promise you if the politics were reversed I‘d be doing the same segment.  I swear on that.

CARROLL:  Right.

CARLSON:  But again, you still haven‘t answered my question.  Why haven‘t you fired him and would you be willing to just fire him right now on the air?

CARROLL:  There‘s a procedure that you must follow in Alabama.  We have featured who are tenured.  As I‘ve said, Mr. White has been with our system for 10 years.  He is a tenured teacher.  There‘s a process that you must go through, to follow in order to take action against teachers. 

We followed that and are still in the process because other allegations have—have come to our attention since the original film strip.  There‘s been some other allegations made.  And we‘re in the process of investigating those.

CARLSON:  All right.

CARROLL:  And we‘ll take the appropriate action for those allegations. 

CARLSON:  Dr. Barry Carroll. I want to get tenure.  I want a job where I can‘t be fired no matter what I do.  I think everybody in America who‘s not a teacher wants tenure.  We need tenure. 

Dr. Carroll, thanks for joining us.

CARROLL:  I understand. 

CARLSON:  Amen. 

CARROLL:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  I hope you‘ve got tenure. 

Still to come, what do Muhammad Ali, Elvis Presley and “American Idol” have in common?  We have the answer when we come back.



CARLSON:  Still to come, a porn star offers a truce to Osama bin Laden.  The latest development in the war on terror.  We‘ll tell you what she‘s laying on the table.

Plus, be treated to a visit from one of America‘s best dwarf cover bands, Tiny KISS.  They‘re excellent.  We‘ll get to all that in a minute, but first, here‘s what else is going on in the world tonight. 


CARLSON:  We turn now to a man whose areas of interest and expertise range from the New York Yankees starting pitching lineup to the New York Yankees bullpen.  He‘s “The Outsider”, ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing host Max Kellerman—Max. 

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO:  And Mariano got it done again today, Tucker.  That guy never gets old.

CARLSON:  Don‘t know what that means, Max, but congratulations on that.

KELLERMAN:  Thank you very much. 

CARLSON:  Teachers spend their lives evaluating people, so why are they touchy about being evaluated themselves?  Good question. 

The web site is a popular message board where students and their parents share information about teachers and school administrators.  That site has now been banned from many school computers around this country because officials say a teacher‘s reputation can be ruined by comments made on that web site. 

I say the free and open exchange of information is good for everyone.  Max, on the other hand, prefers authoritarian school administrators controlling our children‘s brains. 

Max, come on.  Free inquiry, that‘s what they‘re supposed to be teaching, right?  The exchange of accurate information.  Also, schools ought to be encouraging kids to state their opinion clearly and honestly.

KELLERMAN:  Furthermore, I‘ll be willing to bet that the teachers that are rated well it actually is a real strong positive correlation there.  Bad teachers probably get a lot of bad comments. 

However, there are two arguments here.  The moral argument: this is a web site where you can anonymously attack the teacher.  And from people I‘ve spoken to about this, who go to, they say there are various web sites like this.  This one is essentially character assassination.  That‘s the moral argument...

CARLSON:  Oh, poor baby.

KELLERMAN:  ... because you‘re anonymous and don‘t take responsibility for what you say.

CARLSON:  People are criticizing you, can you imagine?

KELLERMAN:  Well, here is the actual—they‘re ad hominum attacks in many cases.  But here is the actual more legalistic argument.  That school isn‘t saying students, if they‘re found out that they‘re at home on this web site they‘re going to get in trouble, nor could they or should they say that. 

What they‘re saying is when you‘re on school grounds using school computers during school hours, you cannot get on this web site.  Now, what‘s wrong with that exactly?

CARLSON:  Because they‘re saying you can go on any other web site you want, just not on the one that criticizes us.  In other words, teachers say, “Look, you know, go out into the world.  Do your best.  But you can‘t fire us no matter what we do.  You can say anything you want but can‘t criticize us if you don‘t like it. 

KELLERMAN:  You can‘t go to a porn site.  There are you plenty of web sites, which is about 80 percent... 

CARLSON:  You can go onto and write all you wanted.   But you can‘t go onto, because Bush isn‘t your teacher and the teachers are.  This is an abuse of power. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, the teacher‘s not a public, political figure.   The teacher‘s not a public political figure. 

CARLSON:  Yes, they are.

Well, you can‘t put a price on an American icon, can you?  Turns out you can. 

Muhammad Ali has sold 80 percent of the marketing rights to his name and his likeness to a company called CKX for the price of $50 million.  The former heavyweight champion will keep 20 percent.  That‘s an interest in the business that he is Muhammad Ali. 

But CKX also own the rights to Elvis Presley‘s marketing. 

I think it‘s sad that the people around Ali are taking advantage of him to make a buck.  Max sees this is as a good deal for one of his boxing heroes. 

Max, I feel sorry for Muhammad Ali.  He‘s old and he‘s ailing.  He‘s a legend and it seems to me like he‘s being taken advantage of by those around him.  He doesn‘t need more money.  The people around him want more money.  It‘s greed. 

CARLSON:  Well, I visited Ali on his farm and spent the day with him a couple years back. 

I don‘t know exactly how people are taking advantage of him right now.  He lives exactly as he wants to with the people he‘s close to around him constantly.  And you just said it yourself: he sold 80 percent of the rights to his name for $50 million. 

I mean, by this line—by this line of reasoning any time a guy makes a buck at all he‘s always being exploited, right?  Because it‘s not really your money; it‘s your wife‘s money anyway.  I mean, how exactly is he being exploited?

CARLSON:  Well, he‘s being exploited because he is a man who is famous not just for his boxing but for his dignity and for his self-respect.  And if you sell your name, your name is intrinsic to you.  You can‘t—it‘s a kind of spiritual prostitution.  You can‘t sell your name any more than you can sell your identity.

KELLERMAN:  Like Michael Jordan, for instance, or Elvis Presley.  This company also owns Elvis‘ name. 

CARLSON:  Well, Elvis is dead. 

KELLERMAN:  I understand but the worst exploitation right, he certainly can‘t benefit from it at all.  But Michael Jordan‘s likeness and name and everything is everywhere, and he‘s profiting to a larger extent than Ali, even greater extent than Ali. 

CARLSON:  I just absolutely disapprove of that.  But this case is more poignant because you get the feeling and you would know Ali was probably not the driving force behind this but the people around him were. 

KELLERMAN:  Listen, Ali, if you spend any time with him with Ali, he needs money.  He needs to live his life, and he wants his family to be well taken care of.  And he, I‘m sure, does not want to be involved in the day-to-day nauseous little details of everything. 

So if someone comes to him and if his wife signs off and says, yes, this is a good deal, you sign this piece of paper, you get $50 million.  Do I have to hurt anybody?  Do I have to fight in Vietnam in order to get this?  No, no, no.  Do I have to fight George Frazier or George Foreman?  No, no, no, just sign this paper.  Here‘s $50 million.  Sounds like a good deal. 

CARLSON:  You‘re kind of winning me over on that point.  And it‘s a lot easier than boxing.  That‘s an excellent point.  Max Kellerman.

KELLERMAN:  Tucker, what would your price be for your name and likeness?  Because mine would be a lot less than $50 million. 

CARLSON:  It would be—I don‘t know, the high hundreds.  No one is offering, though, unfortunately. 

KELLERMAN:  ... have my name.

CARLSON:  Max Kellerman.  Thank you, Max. 

Wait until you see what‘s coming out of Elton John‘s closet now.  It‘s the clothes that make the man, or in Elton‘s case the flamboyant megastar.  More than 10,000 designer items going on the auction block to raise cash for his AIDS foundation. 

Here‘s your chance to own a piece of original Dior, Prada, Gucci or Yves St. Laurent for as little as $15.  Granted, Elton‘s colorful wardrobe may not be for everyone, but stranger looking things have turned up on the auction block. 

In tonight‘s “Top Five” we place a bid on some of the most bizarre celebrity auctions ever conducted. 


CARLSON (voice-over):  There‘s no business like show business, but the celebrity auction business might run a close second.  It seems, however, that our idol worshiping culture sometimes crosses the line into the creepy and the truly icky. 

A hot plate of French toast at your neighborhood diner, $6.95.  Justin Timberlake‘s partially eaten French toast on eBay, $3,100. 

Watching his ex-girlfriend kiss another woman on national television, priceless. 

And it‘s a good thing Elvis has left the building, because he‘d surely be all shook up by the freakish fad of celebrity auctions.  Take, for instance, the tree branch that mysteriously fell to the ground during the king‘s funeral.  One devout fan really went out on a limb to acquire it, paying $748. 

Golden Palace Internet Casino scored a royal flush when it made a bid for Grateful Dead head Jerry Garcia‘s “head.”  Four of these actually fetched $5,000.  For devoted Deadheads, truly the best seats in the house. 

JERRY GARCIA, MUSICIAN:  It‘s like a dog hanging his head out of a car window. 

CARLSON:  Even respected historical figures aren‘t spared the sometimes morbid fascination of souvenir hunters.  Believe it or not, this bathtub, which assassin James Earl Ray was standing in when he shot civil rights leader Martin Luther King, sold on eBay for $7,600. 

And our top celebrity auction item.  Going once, going twice, sold to the Trekkie who bought William Shatner‘s kidney stone for $225,000. 


CARLSON:  But it‘s unlikely this will mark the final frontier for bizarre celebrity auctions. 

WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR:  God knows what they would pay for something else. 


CARLSON:  Well, if you watched this show before you may have noticed that I look different tonight.  I‘m not wearing a bow-tie.  This is odd for me.  I have worn a bow-tie on television every night for the past six years and for 15 years off air before that, since I was in 10th grade. 

I like bow-ties, and I certainly spent a lot of time defending them. 

But from now on I‘m going without: no ties at all. 

I didn‘t lose a bet.  It is not a political statement.  I didn‘t ditch the bow-tie in protest or in solidarity with any oppressed group.  It‘s not a ratings ploy but decided.  I just decided I wanted to give my neck a break.  A little change is good once in awhile, and I feel better already. 

So to all three of you who watch this show for the bow-tie I‘m sorry.  For the rest of you who don‘t take a position on neckwear one way or the other we now returned to our regularly scheduled programming. 

Coming up on THE SITUATION tonight it‘s like KISS but better and smaller.  They are the greatest dwarf tribute band in the country, and they‘re on our show next.  Believe me, don‘t miss this.  We‘ll be right back.


VANESSA MCDONALD, PRODUCER:  Coming up, you‘ll meet a KISS cover band made up of head banging little people, plus a porn star joins the international manhunt for Osama bin Laden. 

CARLSON:  Little people dressed up like KISS and porn stars hunting bin Laden?  I love this show.  We‘re back in 60 seconds.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

There may be only one tribute band on earth that rivals and maybe even exceeds the entertainment value of the band it is paying tribute to.  That tribute band is with us tonight. 

They are Tiny KISS, and with its hard rocking little people who travel the country doing a KISS act complete with costumes and makeup.  The role of Gene Simmons is played by Big Beth Morris.  She‘s the only member of the band who‘s not a little person.

Tiny KISS and their founder, Jeff Beacher, join us tonight from Las Vegas.  Welcome, Tiny KISS. 




CARLSON:  Now, who is Ace Freely?


CARLSON:  All right.  Tell me, has—is KISS aware of you?  Have you all met KISS?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Some day we‘ll party, dude.  Woo!

CARLSON:  Have KISS‘ lawyers sent you letters?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No.  We get letters from MiniKISS‘ lawyers, though. 

CARLSON:  From MiniKISS.  Now, MiniKISS, we should explain to our viewers who haven‘t been following the rivalry between MiniKISS and Tiny KISS, that being you, that there is in fact another KISS tribute band comprised of little people, and they are in conflict with you.  What‘s the story?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Can we tell them?

“LITTLE” TIME LOOMIS, MUSICIAN:  Yes, yes.  I was drumming with MiniKISS in New York before I came out here. 

CARLSON:  And you are “Little” Tim Loomis. 

LOOMIS:  Yes, I am.  Thank you. 

WEE MATT MCCARTHY, MUSICIAN:  It‘s like an east coast-west coast Mini, Tiny, Little KISS going. 

LOOMIS:  And tonight I‘m also a Tucker from another mother. 

CARLSON:  You look terrific, I have to say. 

LOOMIS:  Thanks.

CARLSON:  So you were drumming with the rival?

LOOMIS:  Yes, and I invited them to come out here and they ditched the gig, and so I set up my own band. 


MCCARTHY:  Yes!  Woo!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes.  The guy on the East Coast is very, like—he runs like a little person mafia.  He‘s very rude. 

LOOMIS:  A wannabe little person mafia. 

MCCARTHY:  Yes, generic dudes. 

CARLSON:  Is there a legal battle between you, the two bands?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They‘re trying to make it one, but I mean, these guys rock and these guys are much better so he‘s very jealous. 

CARLSON:  Did you all grow up as KISS fans?

MCCARTHY:  Yes!  Rock on!  Yes!

CARLSON:  Does any of you have, like, an eight-inch long tongue like Gene Simmons?

MCCARTHY:  I do.  Check mine out.  Yes!

CARLSON:  Is that Shorty Rossi (ph) or Wee Matt McCarthy?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  In the house. 

CARLSON:  Wee Matt, tell me, what‘s your favorite KISS tune?

MCCARTHY:  What‘s my favorite?  “I want to rock ‘n‘ roll all night and party every day.”  Yes.  That‘s my tongue, brother.  That‘s my tongue.

CARLSON:  Do you all live in Vegas?


CARLSON:  Where do you play and who comes to see your shows?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We play right off Beacher‘s Madhouse, which is our show at the Hard Rock. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  But we‘re also going to be playing in the future at Beacher‘s Rockhouse every night coming up. 

LOOMIS:  We just signed a big deal with these guys. 

CARLSON:  Have you all gone on tour?

JOHN BEACHER, FOUNDER:  Occasionally they get hired all around the world to play private parties or small arenas, stuff like that. 

CARLSON:  What do the KISS loyalists think of this?  I mean, there are a lot of serious KISS fans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They love all of this. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They love it. 

MCCARTHY:  The chicks, man.  The chicks get wild.  They get crazy. 

It‘s unbelievable.  It‘s one big party. 

CARLSON:  So Tiny KISS has its own groupies?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Oh, yes.  We got all kinds of chicks. 

CARLSON:  Tell me what they‘re like.  Not to pry or anything, but what‘s a Tiny KISS groupy like?

BEACHER:  Let‘s put it this way.  I‘ve gone out with these guys...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Eighteen or older. 

MCCARTHY:  Long legs.  I like climbing the long legs.  Yes.  Tall mamas, yes. 

CARLSON:  Wee Matt McCarthy, “Little” Tim Loomis, Shorty Rossi, Jeff Beacher and Big Beth Morris, who I don‘t believe is present.  They add up to Tiny KISS.  You can see them in Vegas and you should. 


CARLSON:  Still ahead on THE SITUATION nothing can top that.  We‘re going to try, nevertheless.  An international porn superstar joins the global war on terror.  We‘ll tell you about the adult film community‘s brilliant plan to capture Osama bin Laden.  We find that, of course, on “The Cutting Room Floor”.

And don‘t forget THE SITUATION voicemail is back.  Give us a call, the number 1-877-TCARLSON.  We will play the best messages of the week on Thursday night.  Meantime, we will be right back.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time for “The Cutting Room Floor.  Willie Geist still in a daze from Little KISS. 

WILLIE GEIST, PRODUCER:  I am in a daze.  It was a nice little sermon you gave, but I think we should tell the world the truth about the bow-tie.  You bet me I wouldn‘t stoop to putting a drunk dwarf KISS cover band on national television.  I proved you, sucker. 

CARLSON:  You called my bluff.

GEIST:  I hope it was worth it. 

CARLSON:  It really was, both the high points and the low points simultaneously. 

GEIST:  Only high for me. 

CARLSON:  I loved it.

Vice President Dick Cheney threw out the ceremonial first pitch at the Washington Nationals home opener this afternoon.  The players all got big ovations from the home fans.  The vice president was not nearly as warmly received, though. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Please welcome the vice president of the United States, Dick Cheney. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  (cheers and boos)


CARLSON:  Ouch.  As is custom with politicians, the pitch missed its mark pretty badly.  Cheney is the first vice president to throw out a first pitch since Hubert Humphrey did it in 1968. 

GEIST:  A little advice to his press staff.  Don‘t send people with 18 percent approval ratings out into big audiences. 

CARLSON:  Not in metropolitan areas like Washington, D.C.  No, I think that‘s true.

GEIST:  And did you see that pitch?  I think it‘s time to just say the vice president has bad aim.  The gun thing was not an isolated incident.  Let‘s keep him away from a firearms, bows and arrows, baseball, everything. 

Let‘s just keep...

CARLSON:  There it is.

GEIST:  Blowing away.

CARLSON:  Well, drive-in movie theaters are making a big comeback and not just here in the U.S.  In Norway they drive in on their snowmobiles and sit in the freezing cold to catch their favorite flicks.  The movies are projected onto screens made of snow and ice.  Slurpees and soft serve ice cream reportedly not big sellers at the concession stand. 

GEIST:  Yes.  The double feature is not real popular either when it‘s 30 below zero. 

Tucker, the whole point of a drive-in movie is to score with your date, right?


GEIST:  Obviously.  That goes without saying.  How do you do that on a snowmobile?

CARLSON:  That is a solid question.

GEIST:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  You know that throughout Scandinavia, the Norwegians, while nice, are regarded as maybe not the quickest, the sharpest, the brightest people. 

GEIST:  Well, I‘ll leave that to you being the Scandinavian person. 

CARLSON:  I know.  I can say that as a Swede, that‘s true.

GEIST:  By the way, if I‘m going to that, you‘re going to make me go to a movie at that thing, it better be “The Godfather.” 

CARLSON:  No, it‘s not.

GEIST:  I‘m not going to see “Failure to Launch”. 

CARLSON:  No, it‘s not that.  It‘s like a Norwegian reindeer epic, of course.  Come on.  A throwaway (ph).

It just doesn‘t get any lower than this next story.  The mother of a 17-year-old boy has been arrested in Iowa on charges she helped fake the boy‘s death to get out of work for a few days. 

GEIST:  Oh, boy.

CARLSON:  Mary Jo Jensen and her boyfriend James Snyder placed a fake obituary for the woman‘s son in a local newspaper as proof to their employer they should get time off for bereavement.  The couple said the boy died after a long illness.  Their scam was up when the boy was seen eating at a local restaurant. 

GEIST:  Wow.  I guess she was out of personal days or something?  What happened there?

CARLSON:  I don‘t know.  My guess is it was crystal meth related.  But I don‘t know that.  It‘s not an allegation, just a guess.

GEIST:  That‘s a little bit of a leap.  It may have been.  We don‘t wish ill on people on this show, but I‘m sure there are people out there who hope that possibly there will be a real obituary published in the newspaper about one of these people. 

CARLSON:  I suspect, you know, our viewers who believe in God can take comfort in the fact that judgment is coming. 

GEIST:  Yes.  It‘s on its way. 

CARLSON:  Well, it‘s been more than 4 ½ years since September 11, and still we have not captured Osama bin Laden.  Italian porn star Cicciolina is tired of sitting around and waiting for someone else to do something about it. 

Speaking at the erotic fair in Bucharest, which was terrific again this year, by the way, Cicciolina announced an offer with potentially huge implications for world peace.  She said, quote, “Bin Laden can have me in exchange for an end to his tyranny.  My breasts have only ever helped people while he killed has thousands of innocent victims,” end quote. 

GEIST:  How true that is. 

CARLSON:  How true that is.

GEIST:  How true...

CARLSON:  True that. 

GEIST:  The international coalition of the willing gets new meaning on that story, by the way. 

And she‘s more than willing.  If she pulls this off, obviously, and I think she might, she gets the Nobel Prize.  Can you picture the dais that night?  Cicciolina, Hank Kissinger, the Dalai Lama, Kofi Annan.  It‘s going to be a big night. 

CARLSON:  I don‘t know.  They gave it to Rigoberta Menchu a couple of years ago.  So this doesn‘t strike me as any unusual...

GEIST:  If she pulls it off give her the reward, put the medal around her neck. 

CARLSON:  I totally agree with that. 

GEIST:  I‘m a big Cicci fan.

CARLSON:  Willie Geist nominating, right here.

That‘s THE SITUATION for tonight.  Thank you for watching.  We‘ll be back here tomorrow.  See you then.



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