'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for April 18

Guests: James Williams, Kerry Sutton, George Sloan, John Bourlan, Stacey Honowitz, Mickey Sherman, Carlos Diaz, Beth Holloway Twitty, Arlene Ellis-Schipper, Les Levine, Clint Van Zandt

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody at home.  I am coming to you live right now from the Durham County courthouse in Durham, North Carolina, where just moments ago, we learned of a new search of the dorms at Duke University.  Police went back to the Duke dorm room where some of the lacrosse players live and continue as they look for clues in that dorm.  This comes after two of the Duke lacrosse players were charged with rape, sexual assault and also kidnapping.  And late today, the district attorney a third arrest may be on the way.  Plus, in my exclusive interview with, second dancer who was there the night of the alleged assault told me she wants justice.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think that if charges are filed, it won‘t be -

I hate to use a legal word, but erroneous.  It won‘t be an erroneous charge.


COSBY:  And we‘ll have more of my exclusive interview in just a moment.  But first, we begin with NBC‘s Ron Mott, who has been following the very latest developments all day long.  Ron, fist tell us about the search of the dorm rooms that we just found out about.

RON MOTT, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, what‘s significant about this, Rita, is the fact that police got the escort this time from campus police.  The last time they went in, Duke University officials said all they were told by Durham police was the fact that Durham police were planning to go on campus.  So tonight, they got an escort.

There is a search warrant this time.  Police can hold that search warrant essentially to themselves for 24 hours before they must release it to the public, or they can release it at any time.  We are efforting to see what items are on that search list.

COSBY:  Do we have any sort of inference or any idea what they are looking for or who they‘re looking for?

MOTT:  No idea, at this point, but district attorney Mike Nifong has said all along he believes there is a third player who might be involved in this.  And so potentially, they may be going back to those dorm rooms, looking for information, some substantive information that he believes will lead to a positive identification of this third person.  He said in a statement today that he wanted to effect arrest of all three of the suspects in the case but did not have the evidence at this time to make that positive identification of the third person.

COSBY:  Now, speaking, Ron, of arrests, we know that there were two arrests that came down, two charges, actually, that came.  The boys turned themselves in.  Tell us how significant these were, then tell us some of the details of these two.

MOTT:  Absolutely.  Significant because it does have the potential for easing the some of the tension in this community.  Some people in the black community—you got to remember that the 27-year-old accuser is black, the three players she‘s accused of raping her are white.  And some in the black community say that if the races were flipped, if the roles were reversed, that there would have already been arrests and not 31 or 32 days or how many ever days after these allegations surfaced.

So today, the arrests of the two young men were effected, charges of first degree rape, first degree kidnapping and sexual offense.  These are very serious charges, minimum mandatory sentences, if convicted on the rape alone, 16 years here in North Carolina.

The defense attorneys are outraged, as are some people in the Duke community.  They believe that these charges are, to use the words of one defense attorney, bogus.

COSBY:  WE also understand that have some information—we‘ve been told—I‘ve talked to a number of defense attorneys.  They have told me that they have some significant information, Ron, something to the effect of a cab driver, also receipts, also surveillance video from an ATM that shows maybe one of these boys was even not at the house at the time.

MOTT:  In fact, defense attorneys say that they will be happy to prove

in open court that they have evidence that these two young men were both at

the party—they will acknowledge that, that they both were at the party -

but they were gone by the time this alleged activity—alleged criminal activity was said to occur.  And how they say they can do that—there are apparently ATM receipts that they can show, fast-food receipts that they can show, evidence of a cab ride that one or both of the gentlemen took to get back to campus, and then card swipes at the dorm.  And all of these are time stamped in some way, and they believe that, at some point, if that evidence is called into question, that it will help to exonerate these clients.

COSBY:  Ron Mott, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.  Get back to us if you get any more details on that search warrant and the search of the dorm.

MOTT:  You got it, Rita.  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you very much, Ron.

And also, just a short bit ago, the district attorney, Mike Nifong, released a statement, and here‘s what it says.  It says, “It had been my hope to be able to charge all three of the assailants at the same time, but the evidence available to me at this moment does not permit that.”  He further says that, “The investigation into the identity of the third assailant will continue in the hope that he can be also identified with certainty.  It is important that we not only bring the assailants to justice, but also that we lift the  cloud of suspicion from those team members who were not involved in the assault.”

And we‘re joined now by James “Butch” Williams.  He‘s an attorney for one of the Duke team lacrosse—he‘s one of the co-captains, actually, Daniel Flannery.  And also joining us on the phone right now is attorney Kerry Sutton, who represents another co-captain, Matt Zash.  Neither of their clients have been charged so far in this case.

Butch, are you worried that your client could maybe be this third person that he‘s looking for?

JAMES “BUTCH” WILLIAMS, ATTORNEY FOR DANIEL FLANNERY:  Not at all.  My client has maintained his innocence throughout the whole entire (INAUDIBLE).  We have corroborative evidence to show that he could not have committed any rape.  And we also are finding out (INAUDIBLE) having more corroborative evidence that neither one of those other two young men may have, in fact, committed any particular offenses.

COSBY:  Now, Butch, you‘re saying neither one of those two.  I want to put up—because we know that there‘s some important information—just hearing from Ron Mott about a cab driver.  We‘re also hearing about an ATM.  We‘re hearing a number of things that seem pretty significant, if you can corroborate.  Apparently, a surveillance tape.  Is this what you‘ve heard, as well?

WILLIAMS:  Well, yes, that and some other things that I‘m not going to go into at this particular time.  But persons are working diligently, now that we know who it is that‘s been charged, to, in fact, show or locate their whereabouts, to provide alibis for why this situation did not occur.

COSBY:  You know, and Kerry Sutton, I got you on the phone.  Is your client, do you think, not the third one on the list?

KERRY SUTTON, ATTORNEY FOR CO-CAPTAIN MATT ZASH:  I have no doubt he‘s not the third one on the list, Rita.

COSBY:  And what‘s your reaction today, you know, to the fact that these two boys have been charged, Kerry?

SUTTON:  Well, I believe, like we said from the beginning, although we didn‘t know which names were going to come out of the hat yesterday, we‘re certain that none of the names were names of guys who were responsible for anything.

COSBY:  Did you expect these changes to come down?  It seemed like it was sort of inevitable that at least it was going to go to an indictment phase, don‘t you agree, Kerry?

SUTTON:  I don‘t think there was much of a way to avoid that after we reached a certain point with the DA and he wasn‘t willing to negotiate with us.

COSBY:  Do you think there‘s any way that the DA would dismiss this case, should evidence come out, like we‘re talking about here with Butch, with the ATM with the cab driver?  You know this DA.  What do you think?

SUTTON:  Well, I like to think that if he gets to a point where he does not believe he can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these boys did these crimes, that he will abandon the case and take a voluntary dismissal.

COSBY:  Both of you, if you could, hang on because I want to now play

this is part of my exclusive interview with the second dancer.  She was with the accuser the night of the alleged rape.  Let‘s take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  She was talkative and friendly and smiling, and definitely—we talked for several minutes, you know, normal conversation.  We were getting to know each other.  She was fine.  She was absolutely fine.

COSBY:  Did she seem that she had been on drugs or drinking?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Not at all.  She did not seem like that at all.

COSBY:  Are you surprised that they‘re saying that, Look, maybe she arrived, you know, banged up and bruised?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Well, I mean, like I said, I just didn‘t notice anything.  There was nothing overtly banged up or bruised about her, or I would have noticed it.

COSBY:  How much of a contrast was her behavior from when she arrived to when she left?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  She was very different.  She was different from the person that I met in the beginning of the night.

COSBY:  A 180?


COSBY:  So you make the first 911 call.  She has to be physically carried into the car by some of the young men.  Is she speaking or saying anything, at this point?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Not really.  She was very out of it.  She was—she was—there was almost no communication, period, and no communication could have occurred in her condition.

COSBY:  You have not spoken to the accuser since that night?


COSBY:  Since you left her at Kroger‘s?


COSBY:  Do you want to talk to her now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I mean, I have no reason not to want to.  I‘m sorry for what happened to her and...

COSBY:  Do you feel guilty?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I don‘t want to feel guilty because, of course, I didn‘t know what was going on.  She was going through that while I‘m, you know, so close, of course, you know, I feel something.  Of course, I feel something.  And then you also feel, you know, Why did it happen to her and not me?


COSBY:  Interesting interview.  What do you think, Butch, when you hear this?

WILLIAMS:  Well, one thing that I think is—first off, this is not a story consistent with what this second young lady has previously said on some other occasions.  And we‘ll get to that at the appropriate times when that should be.  One thing that would get to all of it is if they would just release either—very soon what the doctors found at the hospital.

COSBY:  Have you been able to see those reports at all?

WILLIAMS:  No one has been able to see.  The prosecution has it.  And of course, under HPPA laws, they can‘t—the hospital can‘t release it.  But it‘s going to be interesting to see what was in her blood system that night.

COSBY:  If there was a toxicology report and something to that degree.

WILLIAMS:  And there should have been.

COSBY:  What about DNA?  What about the second round of DNA?  When could we get those?

WILLIAMS:  Hopefully, it‘ll be in tomorrow.  They said three or four -

three to five days last week, and we‘re already in about day seven, day six or seven.  So hopefully, any day now, it will come.  And I mean, we don‘t expect any bombshells.  It‘s going to say the same thing that the other DNA said.

COSBY:  Kerry, what do you think the second DNA could show or couldn‘t show?

SUTTON:  Just like Butch said, I don‘t think it‘s going to show anything that‘s helpful for the state.  I spoke with Mr. Nifong late this afternoon, and he told me he didn‘t know why it wasn‘t in, and he fully expects it to be in tomorrow.

COSBY:  How‘s your relationship with Mr. Nifong these days, Kerry?

SUTTON:  As good as it ever has been.

COSBY:  Well, that‘s interesting to hear.  You still respect him, too?

SUTTON:  I do.  I think he‘s a fine person, a good district attorney and an excellent attorney.

COSBY:  All right, well, both of you, thank you very much.  Kerry Sutton and also Butch Williams...

WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

COSBY:  ... thank you very much.  Good luck with everything.  Thanks so much.

WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And today‘s major developments coming out of this courthouse in Durham, North Carolina, stirred up the legal battle in the Duke assault allegations.  The city‘s lead prosecutor said last night that the evidence shows an assault took place.


MICHAEL NIFONG, DURHAM COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY:  There is evidence of trauma in the victim‘s vaginal area that was noted when she was examined by a nurse at the hospital.  And her general demeanor was suggestive of the fact that she had been through a traumatic situation.


COSBY:  And let‘s now bring in George Sloan.  He‘s a private investigator right here in North Carolina.  George, first of all, the DA sounds like he‘s going clearly for this third person.


COSBY:  Now, how do you pull that together?  How do you—it sounds like she didn‘t positively ID a third guy.

SLOAN:  Well, has it been determined yet she positively identified anyone?

COSBY:  We‘ve been told that she has ID‘d two others.

SLOAN:  One of the problems with that to me is that was a necessity for getting DNA for all the students.  If three of them or two of them had been identified, why not get the DNA just for the two of them?

COSBY:  What could the second round of DNA show?  Is that maybe why they‘re going to this next layer, to see who is this other person out there?

SLOAN:  Yes.  They‘re doing anything that they can to produce information for a strong prosecution in the case.

COSBY:  Let me play something that—of course, this second dancer who we interviewed—this woman seems, you know, very credible, obviously, and says, Look, I don‘t know if a rape occurred, but here‘s what I know.  Let me play a little clip of what she said.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  If I had known that this was going to happen, I would have paid attention to every little detail around me.  But I feel like if she was all bruised up, that‘s something that I would have noticed because we were in close proximity, of course, to each other, and I did not notice anything of the sort.


COSBY:  You know, one of the things she‘s suggesting, George, is that something maybe was slipped in this woman‘s drink.  She said when she arrived, you know, she appeared credible, appeared lucent (SIC), and then within an hour‘s time, when she walked out, she couldn‘t even speak, let alone say she was raped.  Could that help the prosecution‘s case?

SLOAN:  If they can prove that someone in that house put something in her drink, that would help, certainly.

COSBY:  And how tough is that to prove something like that?

SLOAN:  Well, you‘d have to have collaborating (SIC) information from one of the other members or people that were in that house, I think, other than the key person that‘s making the accusations.

COSBY:  George Sloan, thank you very much.

SLOAN:  You‘re welcome.

COSBY:  Investigator right here on the scene.  Thank you.

And still ahead, everybody, we have the Duke rape investigation covered like nobody else.  More of my exclusive interview with the other exotic dancer at the house that night this whole thing started.  Plus an exclusive look at the jail where the two suspects were taken.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  In their case, their bond was already pre-set.

COSBY:  And they had to pay high bond, but they were able to post it. 

What was it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Right.  Their bond was $400,000.  They posted cash this morning.


COSBY:  Plus, major developments in Aruba.  LIVE AND DIRECT is on top of the arrest of a new suspect who may have direct connections to Natalee the night she vanished.  Who is this guy sitting behind bars?  Plus, there is a breaking story out of Hollywood tonight, major news from Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.  That‘s coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.



MARK SIMEON, ATTORNEY FOR SECOND DANCER AT DUKE PARTY:  There‘s a very lonely, scared young woman out there who‘s already been through more than we could imagine and that‘s got to continue to go forward—a father‘s daughter, somebody‘s mother.  It took a lot of courage, in my view, to do what she‘s done.


COSBY:  And that was attorney Mark Simeon speaking to us exclusively about the Duke rape allegations and the indictments that busted open this case.  Simeon‘s representing the other woman who was in the Duke lacrosse house with the accuser on the night of the alleged sexual assault.

Also, we‘re coming to you again live from the Durham County courthouse, where earlier today, the two lacrosse players charged with rape and kidnapping were released on bond.  Attorneys for the suspects were busy defending the accusation.  Take a listen.


KIRK OSBORN, READE SELIGMANN‘S ATTORNEY:  It‘s hard to put in words the unfairness and the injustice (INAUDIBLE) We look forward to showing that he is absolutely innocent as soon as we can.


COSBY:  And joining us now is former sex crimes prosecutor Stacey Honowitz.  Also criminal defense attorney Mickey Sherman.  And with me right here in North Carolina is defense attorney John Bourlan.

John, first of all, what do you make of the DA saying, OK, first of all, I‘m going to—I‘ve got these two, I‘m going after another one?

JOHN BOURLAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  I believe that he had evidence all along.

COSBY:  You do?


COSBY:  Do you believe he‘s got something we don‘t know about?

BOURLAN:  Absolutely.

COSBY:  Stacey, do you agree?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FORMER SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR:  Yes.  I absolutely think—I mean, this is a guy that‘s going forward.  He already has the two indictments.  He‘s still going forward.  He‘s plugging along.  He‘s issuing these search warrants for this third person.  So I think that he has something that, of course, we the public do not know about.

COSBY:  You guys, let me put up the indictment charges because they‘re pretty serious, these charges against these two boys.  And if we can put it up?  It is that they are charged with engaging in a sexual offense with the accuser by force against her will.  Also (INAUDIBLE) and currently know the accuser and also did kidnap by unlawfully confining her.  It goes into greater detail.

Mickey, these are pretty strong charges, right?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Yes, but they‘re traditional rape charges.  When they‘re charging somebody with rape, they often charge unlawful restraint or restraining them or kidnapping.  You know, and they sound horrible, and they are horrible.

You know, I got to tell you, I disagree with everybody else.  I don‘t know that there‘s much more here than this young woman saying, I was raped.  And you know something?  That‘s enough to get somebody arrested in this country.  And I‘m not saying it‘s wrong, but that‘s the reality of it.  So the fact that they don‘t have semen, DNA, physical evidence, corroborative evidence, confessions—all they need is some woman to walk into a police department or the district attorney‘s office and say, I‘ve been raped, and that‘s enough to get someone arrested.

And again, I‘m not saying there‘s anything wrong with that, but that‘s the problem with the “He said, she said” case.  It‘s going to be a credibility issue somewhere down the line.

COSBY:  And you guys, remember, again, we‘re told that she also did identify two of the guys in photos, but didn‘t identify a third.  Let me play again—this is more from the second woman who was in the house, during our interview.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think that the fact that the route that the defense is going is only hurting them, in my opinion.  It‘s making it worse for them.  It‘s—it‘s making me believe more and more and more every single day, every single news story that I hear coming from them, that they have something to hide, that they have something to hide and they‘re scared of what‘s to come.


COSBY:  Stacey, does she have a point?

HONOWITZ:  Well, I think most people that aren‘t familiar with this system find this to be pretty incredible, that the defense is coming forward now and laying their case out on the line.  I do think that it‘s a bit reckless for the defense to be talking about alibis and things like that at this juncture because that could really get you in trouble, if you lock yourself in to a specific defense.  Just like we say in opening statement, there are certain things you shouldn‘t say because you don‘t know what‘s ever going to come of it.  And I think that‘s what the problem is.

The general public doesn‘t realize that this is what the defense is doing, that they‘re coming on the defense.  If this woman is coming forward and indictments are coming down, the defense want to get out there in the media and let them know their side of the story.

Do I think they have something to hide?  We‘re all speculating.  We don‘t know what happened in this case.

COSBY:  We don‘t.  And in fact, let me play a little more because there was one other person who was in that house.  Let me play a little bit more about what she said she saw.  This is the behavior of the woman when she arrived and when she left.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  She was just incoherent.  She couldn‘t—she had to be helped to the car, you know, so she couldn‘t really walk on her own.  She couldn‘t—she really couldn‘t get her thoughts together enough to answer any questions.  You know, she just was out of it.  She was out of it.


COSBY:  You know, John, when you hear that, she‘s saying that such a dramatic turn—doesn‘t know the woman.  You know, she just met her that night.  But she said she‘s never saw someone, you know, deteriorate so rapidly.  Is it possible something may have been slipped in this woman‘s drink?

BOURLAN:  I think it‘s a very distinct possibility.

COSBY:  You do?

BOURLAN:  Absolutely.  People are suggesting that this young woman has possibly set these boys up, that it was a fabrication.  For what purpose?  For money?  Wouldn‘t it make sense that she would go to this party and be more prepared for what she wanted to do?  She‘s not a fool.  She is a college student.  She is very familiar with what she does.  She‘s done this before, so she‘s familiar with crowds of men that might get rowdy.

I think that something happened to her and that she had something put in her drink, if that‘s the case.

COSBY:  How do you prove it?

BOURLAN:  I don‘t think you need to prove it.  I think we can say, Why did these boys pay $800 and she danced for three minutes and before 1:00 o‘clock, the entire group left the house?  Why?  What boys leave a party after drinking beer and carrying on?  And I think what happened here is those other boys that were there that had nothing to do with this conduct, that they spoke with their parents, the parents told them to do the right thing, and they did the right thing.

COSBY:  You know, Stacey, John has an interesting point, and I‘ve wanted to hit on this.  Why did these boys leave the house right after, you know, the two girls leave?  I think it is pretty strange.  I mean, both of them—the second also woman told me that she also called 911.  We know she made that first call.  She told the boys she was going to call 911.  And then the second woman, according to her father, who we spoke with, said that while she was being raped, she was calling on the cell phone.  And then suddenly, when the cops showed, surprise, nobody answers the door?  Is that strange?

HONOWITZ:  Well, I think that‘s right.  What Mickey was saying early on, you know, in a rape prosecution or in any case like this, it‘s just a matter of the woman coming in and saying, Here‘s what happened to me, you can indict.  I think, in this case, you have to look at all the circumstances surrounding this case.  She claims that she was raped.  She claimed that something happened.  And three minutes later, the boys disperse.  They‘re out of the house, and they think maybe the cops are coming to the house.

So I think you must look at the totality of the circumstances.  I can‘t tell you why they left, but I think most people would say it‘s because they thought they were going to be arrested if something bad happened at the house.

SHERMAN:  Yes, but why did...


COSBY:  ... let me get in—Mickey?

SHERMAN:  But then why...


SHERMAN:  Why did they give voluntary statements to the police?  Why didn‘t they wait to lawyer up?  And didn‘t several of them offer to take polygraph tests as soon as they were contacted by the police?  I mean, these...


COSBY:  Hang on one second, guys.  Mickey, also, this is pretty powerful if they can prove that one of these boys wasn‘t here.  If you look at the surveillance tapes, if you look at these other things, that could be powerful proof, right?

SHERMAN:  No question.  And I agree with Stacey that you should look at all of the evidence.  The problem is, it‘s just not politically correct to do that when you‘ve got a victim saying—an alleged victim saying, I‘ve been raped.  I mean, even though the physical evidence and the scientific evidence and the forensic evidence may be contrary to the district attorney going forward, he‘s still going to go forward because it‘s just a lot easier for him to pass it along to a jury or a grand jury and say, Hey, I‘m not the who‘s going to say I don‘t believe her.  Let someone else say that.

COSBY:  All right, Mickey.  Thank you, guys, everybody, very much.

So what did the two lacrosse players go through today when they were booked at the Durham County jail?  Officer Cletus Peller (ph) gave me an inside look at what really happened this morning behind bars.  Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Once we bring (INAUDIBLE) so that they‘ll be processed, and make sure this door is secure.  And then we take them up to the front to be processed.

COSBY:  What happens here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Oh, this area here is when they come in, this is the phone they‘re allowed to use to make their phone call to contact the bondsman or their attorney or whatever.

COSBY:  And they‘d be sitting right over here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes, they sit in here and use the phone.  Once they complete the phone, we secure them back in the cell.

COSBY:  So in the case of these two boys, they were able to get through to who on the phone?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes, ma‘am.  (INAUDIBLE) their family, their bondsman and attorney.

COSBY:  And from there, what happens?  Because...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  (INAUDIBLE) We secure them in a cell.  You know, they both was nice, polite, well-dressed.

COSBY:  Yes, one came in with a blazer on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  One had a blazer, so that it was casual.

COSBY:  (INAUDIBLE) in the cell?


COSBY:  OK.  This the cell that (INAUDIBLE)


COSBY:  And were they placed in here together?


COSBY:  At the same time?


COSBY:  So what happens here, Officer?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  OK, right here, this is where they get printed on the card.  We print them into the machine.  These (INAUDIBLE) print out through the machine.  And then we do the palm on the back side.

COSBY:  So these are their (INAUDIBLE)

COSBY:  Once the fingerprints are done, then I understand there‘s a lot of paperwork.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes, once the fingerprints is done, then we bring them here and we take their release orders and we write them in.  We write them in here, you know, (INAUDIBLE) process in, return where they came in.

COSBY:  Yes, and in fact, here are the two names specifically.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Right.  (INAUDIBLE) One came at 6:07, the other came in at 6:15.

COSBY:  Then they also talked to the magistrate‘s office.  Where is that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  OK.  The magistrate‘s office is located over here, and that‘s where they had to go talk to the magistrate.

COSBY:  And what happens in there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  That‘s where the magistrate process their paperwork and set their bonds.

COSBY:  And that‘s—and that‘s usually already been pre-set?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  In their case, their bond was already pre-set.

COSBY:  And they had to place high bond, but they were able to post it.  What was it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Right.  Their bond was $400,000.  They posted cash this morning.

COSBY:  So both of them had $400,000 on them.


COSBY:  And both paid $400,000 cash?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes, ma‘am.  Sure did.

COSBY:  Not 10 percent of the full amount.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Not 10 percent, the whole amount.

Once we finish processing (INAUDIBLE) released, and we bring them over here up to this door here, and then we just walk them out the door.

COSBY:  Now, at this point, after they‘re greeted (ph) with the family and friends, they‘re free men?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  They‘re free.  They‘re free to go.


COSBY:  And we will continue to bring you all the latest developments live from Duke University.  We‘re going to be keeping tabs to find out why they searched the dorms tonight.

And we‘re also following new details in the Natalee Holloway case.  Tonight, there is a new suspect locked up in Aruba.  Who is he?  And is he the key to solving this case?  We‘ve got all the late-breaking developments.  Plus, Natalee‘s mother coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.

Plus: It has finally happened, the moment everyone has been talking about.  Tom and Katie make an announcement of epic proportions.  The details are coming up next.


COSBY:  And big breaking news tonight from the entertainment world.  Tom-Kitten has finally arrived.  “Extra‘s” Carlos Diaz joins us live by phone with the big baby news. 

Fill us in, Carlos. 

CARLOS DIAZ, “EXTRA”:  Guys, it is official.  Tom Cruise, Katie Holmes, they have officially, as you just said, had their Tom-Kitten.  We‘re saying kitten, because it‘s a baby girl.  Her name is Suri.  She weighed seven pounds, seven ounces, and measured 20 inches long.  And both mother and daughter are doing quite well, we are told. 

COSBY:  You know, Carlos, we heard all these things about this silent birth, all these Scientology.  What do we know about how the baby was finally delivered? 

DIAZ:  Well, I got a chance to talk to Kelly Preston, who is John Travolta‘s wife.  And, of course, they are both Scientologists.  And I got a chance to talk to her about the silent birth. 

And, you know, basically, you know, she said it is all about Scientology, and Scientologists believe that‘s words spoken during times of pain are recorded by the reactive mind and that can potentially cause problems for the mother and baby later in life.  So the silent birth is to kind of protect both the mother and baby during the birthing process.

But Tom‘s kind of backed off of that recently and said that, if Katie wanted to make noise during the pregnancy, she was allowed to make noise.  And he even said that, if she wanted an epidural, she could have an epidural during the pregnancy and during the birth. 

COSBY:  Well, we‘ll have to get the details.  Carlos, thank you for breaking the news.  Interesting name, Suri.  Thank you.

And now to the latest in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  A Dutch teenager arrested over the weekend will remain behind bars.  That word is just coming in, and that‘s according to a judge in Aruba who is keeping them there for a number of days now. 

Nineteen-year-old Geoffrey van Cromvoirt will be seeing the inside of a jail cell for at least another week.  LIVE & DIRECT tonight from Aruba is NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski.

Michelle, why the decision to keep this young guy behind bars? 


Well, we know from the past couple of days he‘s been under arrest since Saturday, so prosecutors had some evidence against him, some reason to keep him in jail.  And then it turned out that they were going for eight more days, so they had something more about him that they wanted to explore, wanted to bring before a judge.  And that‘s what happened late this afternoon. 

Interestingly, we didn‘t see them bring the suspect, 19-year-old Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, to the courthouse.  Instead, we saw a prosecutor and a judge go to him, to the jail where he‘s being held. 

After that, prosecutors released a statement saying they got what they wanted, they got the eight more days of custody.  And they said that this young man is now suspected of committing some criminal offenses that may relate to Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance. 

And also he‘s suspected in some criminal offenses related to dealing illegal narcotics.  We don‘t know any more detail about those criminal offenses, as they put them.

So we don‘t know if this case is going in the same direction it‘s been going or if this arrest might be more significant and might take some of the focus off of the three suspects, Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers. 

So the detail is not coming from prosecutors, although some of the other attorneys in the case who do have access to some information have been vocal about certain things.  For instance, the attorney for Joran Van Der Sloot said that, within the last two weeks, he won a court motion that granted him access to thousands of pages of investigative documents. 

He says, in those documents, he learned that police found a t-shirt back in June, possibly belonging to Van Cromvoirt and possibly containing some sort of forensic evidence that may relate to this case.  Also, he says those documents indicate that Van Cromvoirt worked in security for his father‘s company, that he did some beach patrol. 

And he says that police believe, based on what he saw in those documents, that Van Cromvoirt knew Natalee Holloway in the days leading up to her disappearance in May—Rita? 

COSBY:  Michelle, thank you very much. 

So just how is Natalee‘s family reacting to this latest arrest?  LIVE & DIRECT right now is Natalee‘s mother, Beth Holloway Twitty. 

Beth, first of all, did you know if Natalee ever met this boy or ever spoke of this boy? 

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  You know, I spoke with some of Natalee‘s classmates that were with her on the island, some of her very closest friends spoke, and the answer is, no, Natalee never mentioned him.  They were unaware of him.  And no.

COSBY:  You know, we heard, Beth, that she had some crush on some sort a light-haired boy at some point.  Is it any possibility that it could be this guy? 

TWITTY:  No, and that‘s simply not true.  That was just some information that I believe was coming from Julia Renfro in the “Vanity Fair” magazine article.  It was not true.  Natalee never phoned home.  She was not even able to make an international call on her cellphone. 

And, no, her closest friends said that she never mentioned it and they were not aware of any individual of this sort. 

COSBY:  You know, Beth, thank you for clearing that up.  Also, we just heard from Michelle that they‘re holding this guy now, they‘re holding him for eight more days. 

And I‘ve been making a lot of calls to folks in Aruba in the last little bit.  They‘ve been telling me that they believe, for this boy to be extended in his stay, that there would have to be something significant, something sort of tying to the involvement surrounding Natalee.  What are you hearing? 

TWITTY:  You know, well, Rita, it‘s just really hard to tell.  I‘m not so sure if we‘re leaning towards information versus involvement.  But if it is information, you know, it may be after the fact.  I mean, we know who Natalee‘s original perpetrators were, and those were Joran Van Der Sloot, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe.  Now, whether this last suspect came in after, you know, that we don‘t know. 

COSBY:  You know, the other thing we‘re hearing is that this boy - as we look at a picture of him—could be cooperating, could be talking to authorities.  And there‘s also some word that maybe it could lead to some other arrests.  Are you getting any indication that there could be something else coming down the pike? 

TWITTY:  Well, nothing definitively right now, Rita.  I think that, once we got through the day, I was just really concerned if they were going to detain him for an additional eight days.  And, you know, as far as any other arrests upcoming, no, I have not heard that. 

COSBY:  One of the things, Beth, too, Steven Croes.  We‘ve been hearing a lot from folks that they are looking at Steven Croes again and his story.  Of course, he is the guy who kind of came up with that fabricated story to back up the Kalpoe brothers and Joran, saying that they dropped her off at the Holiday Inn, which of course was totally false.  And everybody thought it was a little fishy.

Have you always sort of wondered if this guy maybe knew more than he said? 

TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely.  I don‘t see how anyone could just come forward just out of the goodness of their heart and be a lying witness and risk being arrested.  You know, there was a reason Steven Croes stepped forward, and there was a reason why Joran mentions him.

And one of his first statements he gives to the police is how he states that Steven Croes was a witness to seeing him drop Natalee off with the two minority security guards.  He didn‘t just do that for nothing, Rita. 

COSBY:  Yes, what do you think is behind it, Beth?  What do you suspect?

TWITTY:  You know, I don‘t know.  Unless he is the one, the individual who has access to a boat, but I believe also this new suspect is somehow linked to or has access to a boat, also.  And I‘m hearing that he is also an acquaintance of Steven Croes. 

And, you know, until we can connect those together, you know, I don‘t know, but I have a feeling that all of these suspects are tied together in some way. 

COSBY:  What do you hope happens next, Beth, as you watch developments in Aruba very closely, as we are, but no one‘s watching it more closely than you?

TWITTY:  Gosh, you know, we just want some information, Rita.  And this is the time where now we know they do have plea bargaining in the Aruban system.  We‘ve had some law professors come forward from Holland to say, yes, they do. 

You know, this is the time to get the answers out of these suspects as to what happened that night.  We just need one small break in order for us to proceed in this, Rita, just one break. 

COSBY:  And we‘re hearing that authorities obviously feel there‘s enough to keep this guy.  Hopefully, he has some information, Beth, and hopefully this case will be solved soon. 

Beth, thank you so much. 

TWITTY:  Thank you, Rita. 

COSBY:  Thank you.

And there‘s a lot more on this story coming up.  What about the legal trouble for Joran Van Der Sloot and also the Kalpoe brothers?  Does this mean that any of this is over and could more arrests be around the corner?  That‘s coming up next.


COSBY:  And tonight, we are following the breaking developments out of Aruba:  a new arrest of a new suspect taking place over the weekend. 

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt went before a judge in Aruba today.  He‘s 18 years old and is being held for both a possible link to the Natalee Holloway case and for drug charges.  LIVE & DIRECT tonight from Aruba is attorney Arlene Ellis Schipper.  She is a spokesperson for the Aruba strategic communications task force.  Also with us, once again, is sex crimes prosecutor Stacey Honowitz. 

Arlene, let me start with you.  We just heard that this boy is going to be held for eight more days.  What do you know is behind this? 


Well, we know very little.  As Michelle already indicated, the police and the prosecutors are very tight-lipped. 

What I can tell you of the law of Aruba is that suspects can be held, if the investigation so warrants.  There is two elements.  First, he has to be qualified as a suspect.  Apparently that has been done.  And, second, there has to be serious suspicion.  And if that is the case, one can prolong the police custody with eight more days, which has been done. 

COSBY:  You know, Arlene, you‘re there on the island.  The sense, when I‘m talking to people, they feel like they‘re getting something now substantive.  At first, they didn‘t feel that way about this boy.  They did initially, then they sort of backed off, but now the sense is that maybe he‘s cooperating, giving something.  What are you hearing? 

SCHIPPER:  Well, I haven‘t heard whether he‘s cooperating or not.  There‘s a lot of rumors flying around, and I‘m very hesitant to speculate on those things. 

I know that the sense on Aruba is that—just hope that this case will be solved, because we don‘t know even which role or which capacity of a suspect he is.  So we shouldn‘t jump to conclusions in that respect, either. 

COSBY:  You know, but, Stacey, the reality is they needed something significant to hold this boy.  The bottom line is:  They found it.  Eight more days, the public‘s watching.  You know that they got to have something to hold this boy after all this. 

HONOWITZ:  Well, absolutely, Rita.  And I think Arlene is right.  You know, we can‘t speculate, but I think what most people, when another arrest is made, rumors fly, and everybody has their own opinions as to why this person is in custody. 

But there had to be something significant, some kind of nexus to allow him to stay in prison at this time, to give more statements, to maybe cooperate.  But we don‘t know his direct involvement. 

I think it‘s really important that people understand that sometimes it takes more than 11 or 12 months to solve a crime.  Sometimes it takes years.  And in this case, if they‘re moving along, if they‘re finally taking the bull by the horns, and if they have a change in the guard—which they have had; a new prosecutor has come in—maybe they are starting to make some progress where they can connect the dots and we can move along in this case, and maybe have the ending that we‘re looking for, a resolution to the case. 

COSBY:  You know, and, Stacey, I know that they don‘t, quote, “do plea bargains” in Aruba, but this boy is looking at some drug allegations, they‘re looking at him for, and also criminal involvement tied to Natalee Holloway.  If he didn‘t have something to do with the actual—if it is murder, and, again, we don‘t know that at this point, but if it that, and maybe he just knows some information following it, can‘t they leverage something on this boy?  Can‘t they hold something over on him? 

HONOWITZ:  Well, I‘m sure they can.  And I don‘t really know what type of plea bargaining goes on over there.  But you know it happens every day. 

Listen, if you give us information, then maybe we can hold back on some of these charges.  But, again, we don‘t know what the involvement is.  It could have been something before the fact, during the actual crime, or maybe even obstruction afterwards, just having some information that he didn‘t turn over initially. 

So, again, Rita, we‘re all speculating.  We have to wait and see in the next eight days what comes out of this. 

COSBY:  And we‘re going to be watching.  Both of you, thank you. 

And still ahead, the search for clues in Aruba.  Coming up, we‘re going to hear from an investigator working for Joran Van Der Sloot‘s defense team.  How does this arrest change their current investigation?  That‘s next.



JOE TACOPINA, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT‘S ATTORNEY:  I don‘t think they‘re arresting people just to let them go.  I don‘t think they‘re arrested people to say two days later, “Oh, well, we arrested him, but we really don‘t have anything on him.”  They‘ve been down that road before in this case; that‘s the last thing this prosecutor wants to go through.

So I think this arrest is more substantial than they‘re willing to acknowledge at this point, which is fine.


COSBY:  ... in Aruba is keeping a 19-year-old Dutch man behind bars for another week, we just got that word tonight.  It‘s for a possible connection to the Natalee Holloway case.

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt was arrested over the weekend, but now there are plenty of questions about the evidence against him and what role he may have played in Natalee‘s disappearance.

LIVE & DIRECT tonight is private investigator Les Levine.  He has been working with Joran Van Der Sloot‘s American defense attorney, Joe Tacopina.  And also with us tonight is former FBI profiler and MSNBC analyst Clint Van Zandt.

Les, what are you hearing about maybe more arrests coming in this case?

LES LEVINE, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, our information is that there are approximately two more arrests that are pending.  When they‘re going to take place, of course, we have no way of knowing.  The Aruban authorities are finally keeping their information as close to the vest as they possibly can.

I think the worst part about this...

COSBY:  But...

LEVINE:  Go ahead.  I‘m sorry.

COSBY:  Go ahead. 

LEVINE:  The worst part...

COSBY:  No, but I was going to say, what do you know about this guy, this Geoffrey van Cromvoirt?  Had you ever heard this name?  And what have you guys been able to dig out?

LEVINE:  Well, we don‘t know the name, other than the fact that the evidence that we understand that they‘re using to have finally gotten to him was something that they found the first week of June.  They found this shirt, along with other physical, on the beach, which may or not be related to this case.

But why this took 11 months for them to get to this young man, whose father runs the security, not only at the Holiday Inn but has a subdivision of his company that does the beach patrols, and from what we understand, this young man was working that night, this is just a travesty, to have persecuted Joran Van Der Sloot for 11 months when this evidence was lying in their file somewhere.

COSBY:  You know, Clint, what do you make of this?  You know, Les brings up a good point.  Here it is, 11 months later.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Yes, well, first of all, Rita, we don‘t know what the evidence is.  You know, if there is—if Natalee Holloway‘s DNA is on that shirt, that‘s fine.  But if it happens to be this young man‘s blood or your or my blood, it doesn‘t make any difference whatsoever. 

So, you know, because a t-shirt was buried in the sand miles from where Natalee was last seen, unless that can be linked forensically to the victim in this case, it means nothing whatsoever. 

LEVINE:  Well, what it means is, is that now they have a suspect in custody who should have been a suspect 11 months ago.  Whether or not her DNA is on this shirt or not a relevant issue, of course. 

But this young man‘s shirt was found on the beach.  Why did it take them 11 months to develop a case against him?  And it‘s not only 11 months.  It seems that the other, Mr. Dompig, totally ignored this, and the new investigator has found cause to make this arrest. 

VAN ZANDT:  Well, you know, we don‘t know that yet.


COSBY:  Hang on, Clint, hold on one second.

Les, what are you hearing about this guy?  Are you hearing that it‘s to the degree where he is a potential suspect?  I mean, the language is pretty strong.  They‘re holding him over eight days.

LEVINE:  Well, I think I would have to believe that they would not have made this arrest unless they had something that was fairly strong.  The last thing they need right now is another black eye, and I would hate to think that they would have now gone on another witch hunt against another young man who ultimately will be proven to be not involved. 

COSBY:  And, Clint, where do you see this headed, real quick?

VAN ZANDT:  Yes, Rita, you know, the standard here to arrest someone is just suspicion, not probable cause like there is in the United States.  They‘ve arrested now eight people who have been in and out of the swinging doors of the criminal justice system in Aruba. 

From the investigator‘s standpoint, you still have to stay focused on the last three people she was with, and you have to wonder why their stories changed so many different times. 

Show me some hard linking physical evidence to someone else, and that‘s fine, because you don‘t want to get locked into these three principal suspects to the exclusion of anybody else, but let‘s not start grabbing people off the beach until we can prove it. 

COSBY:  All right, guys.  That‘s going to have to be the last word, both of you.  Thank you. 

And, everybody, we‘re going to be right back with some more news, right after the break. 


COSBY:  And, everybody, we will continue to bring you developments from Durham and Duke University tomorrow, so make sure that you stay tuned for that. 

Also, 11 years after the Oklahoma City bombing, stunning new claims that others may have played a role in the attack.  I sat down for an exclusive interview with Josh Nichols, the son of conspirator Terry Nichols, and he broke some news.  He says that his father will reveal who may have helped. 


COSBY:  Do you believe that there are several others involved beyond your father and Timothy McVeigh? 

JOSH NICHOLS, SON OF OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING CONSPIRATOR:  Yes, and there was more people involved.

COSBY:  More than just one?

NICHOLS:  More than just McVeigh and him.

COSBY:  And how many others do you believe are involved?

NICHOLS:  You know, I couldn‘t put a number on it, you know.  It could be five, could be 10.  You know, could be more.


COSBY:  And that‘s tomorrow night at 9:00.  Now let‘s go to Joe and “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”—Joe?



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