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'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for May 11

Guests: Henry Lee, Larry Kobilinsky, Lisa Pinto, Yale Galanter, David Yonke, Mike Watkiss, Paul Martin, Charles Bella

RITA COSBY, MSNBC ANCHOR, LIVE AND DIRECT: Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, caught on tape.  A helicopter pilot struggles to save his chopper and all those onboard.  What went wrong? And.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is a cult.  They use brainwashing, it‘s—they use terror to control these kids. 


COSBY: We‘re showing you the inside world of polygamy from a reporter who was actually related to polygamists.  What doesn‘t the FBI know about this offshoot religion that can help them find fugitive Warren Jeffs.

But first tonight, big developments in the Duke rape investigation that could turn the whole case upside down once again. Here‘s what is new.  Tonight there is a report of a possible DNA link from the accuser and one of the lacrosse players.  That same report apparently ruled out the other lacrosse players.  And a key witness in the case gets arrested.  NBC‘s Michelle Hofland has the very latest now live from Raleigh.  Michelle, first tell us about this possible DNA link. 

MICHELLE HOFLAND, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, this all comes from the Durham “Herald Sun.” Their sources tell them that apparently tissue from the (INAUDIBLE) were on the alleged victim‘s fingernail may match that of one of the players.  It‘s not a 100 percent match, according to their sources, but that is quote, unquote consistent with one of the 46 Duke lacrosse players tested.  This comes from the second round of testing.  But according to the district attorney, those final test results are not in yet and the defense attorneys say they have not seen or heard anything about that second round of testing or the test results. 

COSBY: Michelle, where was this fingernail found. Is it just one nail or more than one nail?

HOFLAND: It is unclear where that was found.  However, what we understand is that a number of the fingernails were found inside a trash can in the bathroom of one of the Duke lacrosse player‘s bathroom.  And so that‘s what they say, is just one nail.  And according to defense attorneys, this is really no big deal to them, if this is all true, because if the alleged victim, if her side of the story is true, that she actually they clawed the --  her attackers, then they say that there should have been DNA and a lot of it in four of the fingernails.  But what they say is just a minute amount found somewhere on one of the fingernails. 

COSBY: And also Michelle, we‘re hearing a little bit about this cabbie that we‘ve had on our show a couple times.  He‘s in hot water now.

HOFLAND: Well, this is what happened.  This is what we understand. 

First of all that two Durham detectives who are involved in the Duke

lacrosse case went up to him yesterday afternoon and hauled him into jail

the Durham County jail on a 2 ½-year old misdemeanor case that he says he

has nothing to do with.  This is what the case was about. He drove a woman

he‘s a cabbie - he drove a woman to a department store.  She apparently went inside, shoplifted some purses, came back out as he was waiting and drove her home. And she apparently had said in court that he had nothing to do with this.  He says Durham detectives took him into jail, asked him if he had anything else to say about the Duke lacrosse case, then held him in jail for five hours until a friend of his could bail him out. 

COSBY: Michelle, thank you very much.  We appreciate it. Please keep us posted and let‘s immediately bring in our forensic experts to talk about the DNA stuff that Michelle was talking about.  Professor and also doctor Larry Kobilinsky and also forensic expert from many cases such as the OJ Simpson case, Dr. Henry Lee.  You‘re looking at a shot of Lisa Pinto. We‘re going to get to her in a moment.  There‘s Dr. Henry Lee.  He‘s the author of a brand new book called “Forensic Files.”  Dr. Lee, let me start with you first of all.  This new evidence, DNA, could it lead now to a third young man being arrested?

DR. HENRY LEE, AUTHOR, “FORENSIC FILES”: Of course, Rita.  This is new evidence.  But you have to know those are fake fingernail.  So we have to examine the fingernail, whether or not this fingernail broken and forcibly (ph) removed from the young lady‘s hand.  Also, we want to know how big a piece of tissue, how many profile match.  Because general STR (ph), we do searching profile. We don‘t know exactly how many profile match and basically as far as we know, it‘s a partial match, only consistent with and whether or not those (INAUDIBLE) DNA tissue or from blood or from other body fluid.  That‘s become very crucial. 

COSBY: Great point.  Let me bring in Dr. Kobilinsky because I think Dr. Lee hits it right on the head.  In fact, let me put a little bit of a quote up here about the DNA. It says analyzing the tissue, scientists concluded that it came from the same genetic pool and was --  this is the word - consistent with the bodily make up of one of the 46 lacrosse players who gave DNA samples for testing. 

Larry, that doesn‘t mean 100 percent.  It just means consistent.

DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, PROFESSOR, FORENSIC SCIENCE:  Well, consistent can be a very wishy-washy, dangerous word. 

COSBY: What does it mean in layman‘s terms?

KOBILINSKY: Well, it means you can interpret it in different ways.  It

means that it‘s consistent, but not necessarily an absolute match, but the

fact of the matter is if they did the 13 nuclear low side, those

(INAUDIBLE) low side and they got a partial match, that can be very

significant.  It could have statistics in the range of 1 in billions all

the way down to one in hundreds.  So it may be very significant.  It

depends on the number of low sigh (ph).  If they got less than six low

sigh, then that would mean that this is a questionable result and

consistent is the best they can do to describe it.  It simply means they

cannot exclude this particular individual as the source of that DNA 

COSBY:  Dr. Kobilinsky, it doesn‘t matter obviously where on the fingernail they found it the DNA.  We don‘t know if it was underneath the nail, which could obviously be some signs of a struggle or if it sits on the tip.  Isn‘t that critical?

KOBILINSKY: That is absolutely right.  I mean we have to know whether it‘s consistent with her allegation that she scratched the attacker or perhaps it could be secondary transfer.  It happened to be in a location where this individual‘s DNA was present.  Maybe in the form of saliva or blood or God knows what. 

COSBY:  Dr.  Lee, he hit it on the head, Dr. Kobilinsky.   We also heard that there were some nails found in a trash can.  If this was found in a trash can, is it possible something was transferred to it and that‘s how the DNA got there?

LEE: Yes.  You have to know how much trash in the trash can, another other material in the trash, whose trash can? If this person owns the trash can, likely it could be a secondary transfer.  You (INAUDIBLE) his room.  You have many other material, for example, can have toilet tissue, beer cans and whatever material in there.  So that‘s why we have to know exactly condition of the trash can, how many fingernail there.  Apparently, according to report, there are fingernails, which means quite a few.  And they found one fingernail, multiple fingernail.  Those fingernail remove voluntarily or just because during the struggle the fingernail fall off, just happen to fall into the trash can? How can you—got many fingernail all together fall into a trash can? So a lot of question has to be answered. 

COSBY:  One of the questions tonight Dr. Kobilinsky, there was a pubic hair that was found.  And I want to read a quote of it.  It says because the hair lacked a root, no identifiable DNA was obtained from it. The only thing that could be determined was that the hair came from a white man.  That‘s according to the sources in this newspaper report.         Can the prosecutor still use this or does it not going to help the case?

KOBILINSKY: Well, first of all, what they do with the pubic hair, which they probably found when they collected the rape kit evidence.  They can do a microscopical analysis and that would tell whether it‘s Caucasian or not.  But the other side of it is if they have a sufficient amount—which means about a centimeter, maybe a little more than 1/3 of an inch—they can do my mitochondrial DNA and that is certainly a possibility.  But the significance, if they do find a match to a particular lacrosse player, the statistics are not going to be one in trillions, but more like one in thousands.  So the significance will be lower, but still, very critically important evidence. 

COSBY:  All right, well Dr. Kobilinsky, thank you.  Dr. Lee, stick with us. We‘re going to have more with you a little bit later on in the show. And now let‘s bring in for a legal perspective, you saw her before, coming back again for her appearance here, prosecutor Lisa Pinto is a real sport (INAUDIBLE) the show.  And also with us our pal criminal defense attorney Yale Galanter. Lisa, let me start with you since you‘ve been.


COSBY:  Exactly. Let me start with you.  In terms of this DNA, is it possible that this is enough to make a third arrest, if it does pinpoint to one player?

PINTO: C‘mon, Rita.  This is huge.  We‘ve had the lawyers pounding me saying there‘s no DNA, there‘s nothing.  Now, he has four fingernails in the trash, possibly with material underneath.  You don‘t get that from a lap dance Rita, plus pubic hair that maybe was recovered in (INAUDIBLE) of her vaginal area.  These are very two very strong indicators, whoever that material belongs to is cooked. 

COSBY: Yale, what do you think?

YALE GALANTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It depends.  I mean the forensic experts are 100 percent correct.  There is definitely enough here to indict the third person Rita.  After all, this is a prosecutor who indicted two boys already without any DNA.  So when you take the complaining witness‘ 90 percent surety on the photo ID, the DNA consistent with this prosecutor‘s personality and his -- 

PINTO: Oh Yale, my friend, no DNA but an identification. 

GALANTER: Lisa, you heard it here first.  There will definitely be an indictment on Monday or Tuesday of next week. 

PINTO: I don‘t disagree.  (INAUDIBLE)

COSBY: I think what you‘re saying is pretty powerful, Yale.  You believe Monday, Tuesday there will be an indictment based on this?

GALANTER: Absolutely. 

COSBY: Lisa, do you agree?

PINTO: I don‘t see what else they can do with this material.  That third person, she may not remember his face, but the science doesn‘t lie Rita. This is strong stuff. 

COSBY:  Lisa, what do you make of the fact it was just under one nail.  We don‘t know if it was on the tip. We don‘t know where exactly it was underneath.  That‘s key, right?

PINTO: Well, of course it‘s key.  We have to hear what she said.  Did she say one person held her by the wrist while the other penetrated her and she was maybe only able to scratch with her index finger? That would be consistent with DNA under one fingernail.  Perhaps one individual just was holding the door shut. 

GALANTER: Rita, the truth is that this connection—

COSBY: Let me bring in Yale.  Yale.

GALANTER: Rita, this actually creates more questions that it does answers.  We know, from reading the transcript of the photographic lineup that the first two people, Mr.  Seligmann and Finnerty, according to the complaining witness actually penetrated her.  So there was union with body parts.  There is absolutely no DNA found in the bathroom, on this person, on her fingernails, to make the contact between those three individuals 100 percent. 

PINTO: Yale, isn‘t it conceivable that they -- 

GALANTER: Why is there no DNA Lisa? (INAUDIBLE) certain body parts. 

Dr. Lee said—

PINTO: Do you not think?

GALANTER: More consistent with, consistent with a not 100 percent finding, because we know that that fingernail was in the bathroom.  We also know that the owners of the apartment had DNA material found on the towel. 

PINTO: It‘s not 100 percent. 

COSBY: Let me play devil‘s advocate. Lisa, do you believe that there‘s maybe more out there, or do you think this is it, that the prosecution has?

PINTO: I think this is probably all they have, because we see they sent the sample to a second lab, a private lab. 

COSBY: How unusual is that Lisa?  How unusual is that to go to a private lab versus the state lab?

PINTO: Well, I think it depends on the kind of tests they were doing.  As Dr. Kobilinsky told us, they‘re looking for a Y chromosome test and maybe the first lab wasn‘t capable of doing that testing. 

GALANTER: It‘s the exact same material , this exact same material with the SBI lab, which is the North Carolina state lab, came back inconclusive.  So now it‘s coming back a little more consistent with.  This could be consistent with one out of 10 people or one of five people, one out of 100 people.  We just don‘t know.  (INAUDIBLE)

COSBY: Let me get Lisa.  Lisa, you get five seconds and then I‘ll give Yale five seconds.  Lisa first. 

PINTO: Well, we have some tremendous proof here. We have DNA If this ties to someone, they‘re going to get indicted and this is going to be something the jury to  consider, not the fact of who she slept with in the past or what she said in the past. 

COSBY:  All right, let me bring in Yale. Yale, go ahead. 

GALANTER: If this, if the complaining witness washed her hands or washed her face or her fingernails had contact with a towel in that bathroom, it could be enough to transfer a certain amount of DNA.  And keep in mind, we‘re not talking about a lot here Rita.  We‘re not talking about gouging somebody, as she claimed. 

PINTO: Don‘t they put in the towel in the (INAUDIBLE)  

COSBY:  You can see where the defense is going with this and also the prosecution. Both of you and Yale we‘ll be watching of course what happens Monday and Tuesday.  Both of you, thank you very much. 

And straight ahead, the dramatic courtroom evidence that prosecutors say proves that a priest killed a nun in a ritual like attack.  Did a jury buy it? The verdict is coming up.  And that‘s not all. Take a look.

Still ahead, a losing battle.  A pilot struggling to keep his chopper in the air.  And it‘s all caught on tape.  We find out what went wrong. 

And the search for polygamist cult leader Warren Jeffs.  Is he a danger on the run or just the leader of a freakish cult? Tonight a reporter who‘s related to polygamists explains why these people are willing to risk it all. 

And we‘re having a close encounter of the famous kind.  Richard Dreyfuss tells me why he‘s taking on a sinking ship, Poseidon, the blockbuster film everyone‘s talking about.  That‘s coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone took her by the neck and choked her, choked her so hard that two bones in the side of her neck broke, choked her so hard that the blood vessels in her eyes burst. 


COSBY: And that was the prosecutor dramatically proving his case against Father Gerald Robinson (ph), the priest on trial for killing a nun.  And today the jury agreed, slapping him with 15 years to life in prison for murdering Sister Margaret Ann Paul in 1980.  Sister Paul worked with the killer priest at the Mercy Hospital in Chapel, Mercy Hospital Chapel in Toledo, Ohio.  She was left dead on the floor, strangled and stabbed over 30 times and left with puncture wounds farming the shape of an upside down cross. 

And with us now on the phone is the religion editor of the “Toledo Blade” newspaper, David Yonke, who was in the courtroom.  David, what was the reaction when they found the priest guilty?

DAVID YONKE, THE TOLEDO BLADE: Well, Rita, the verdict came so quick.  Everybody just raced over there, because nobody was expecting it early today.  But when it happened, there was a quick gasp from the entire courtroom and then an eerie silence.  One of the priest‘s relatives started sobbing quietly and that was about it. 

COSBY:  Is there a sense of relief? I mean it‘s been almost a quarter of a century since this crime.  Is there a sense, look, it‘s over.

YONKE: Absolutely.  This has been a case that even when things weren‘t being talked about in headlines, it was still a topic of conversation.  People involved in the case, people who knew people involved in the case. 

Everybody wanted to bring this to resolution someday. 

COSBY:  The defense doesn‘t seem to think it‘s over.  Here‘s their statement.  It said, we certainly respectfully disagree of course with the jury‘s verdict and intend to appeal. We felt that there was reasonable doubt and some appealable issues.  

Did they ever provide a motive, the prosecution? Did you see some holes for appeal?

YONKE: They did provide a motive.  They had a couple things going.  One was the ritual aspect of the killing, that was one theory that kind of surfaced during the trial.  The other one was during closing arguments, they said that it was a rage killing that he was, the priest was mad at the nun, mad at the church, mad at God. 

COSBY: I understand that the Vatican went into the Toledo diocese may get involved somehow?

YONKE: It‘s unclear now what the status of the priest will be.  Right now he‘s barred from ministry, meaning he can‘t celebrate mass for anyone but himself.  The Vatican may act to layasize (ph) him. It may start at the local level and go up to the Vatican.  It‘s possible the Vatican could take the first step. 

COSBY:  At this point he was taken obviously right to jail.  His reaction?

YONKE: He did not show any emotion.  He sat through this whole trial without really showing any emotion.  And when the verdict was read, when he was handcuffed and led out, he just was, stared blankly ahead. 

COSBY:  All right, David Yonke, thank you very much as always.  We appreciate you for following this case for us.  Now let‘s bring in the renowned forensic expert back in.  He‘s the one who actually brought closure to this (INAUDIBLE) Dr. Henry Lee. Dr. Lee reviewed all the evidence in the case and he testified for the prosecution.  Dr. Lee, what do you think sort of was the clincher in this case?

LEE: Well, on August year 2004 the former prosecutor, now he become a judge and investigator come to see me.  So what I did is two things.  One, is did the crime scene reconstruction.  The second, we did physical examination and analysis of the altar clothes.  When we look at her stab wound, is 31 times.  Some of the in the neck area, some on the face, and the majority is on in the chest area form a cross pattern.  Those are consistent with a frenzy type of stabbing, killing.  In addition, we also noticed some marking on her neck, which is consistent another manner of cause of the death.  When we use chemical to treat the altar clothes, we developed some patterns.  That pattern is about dime size (ph) is a medallion.  Later was able to compare with the letter opener, having a medallion and have a similar shape and size and design.  So that‘s a direct linkage of a weapon to the altar clothes and those pattern is made of blood. 

COSBY: And in fact Dr. Lee, let me play—this is the prosecutor in fact talking about that letter opener right now. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The blade of this letter opener was four sided, like a diamond shape and you‘ll be seeing it.  And they studied the puncture holes to the altar clothe and noticed that they weren‘t just a clean slit, like you might expect a knife to make, but irregular shaped. 


COSBY: What about the DNA? They said THAT there was not any DNA that actually linked—you‘ve got the letter opener, but no (INAUDIBLE) DNA actually linked the priest to this woman. 

LEE: Yes.  The letter opener have a funny shape, like a spaceship.  And that‘s why the altar clothes have, like, a little cross type of pattern.  Most stabbing really not that deep, so the letter opener, of course, after it washed and maybe immersed in water, so only give a faint reaction, show the presence could be blood.  But not enough for DNA. DNA analysis not like “CSI:,” by second commercial we always found abundant DNA.  Most cases we don‘t find DNA and just because the transfer of the biological material, you have extensive washing, especially of a nonabsorbent surface, very difficult to have DNA on it. 

COSBY:  Dr.  Lee, what I‘m surprised about, the victim was stabbed between 27 to 32 times.  In fact, you testified, I want to play this, about the lack of blood which is really striking because you think there would be a lot of blood.  Here‘s how it was explained by yourself and also when you‘re talking with the prosecutor on the stand.  Here it is. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you indicated that the lack of blood suggests

the victim was attacked and rendered unconscious or immobile quickly.  Was

that your -

LEE: Yes.  That‘s my interpretation.  She either was immobile or some quick attack.  She lie on the floor, most stabbing is inflected afterwards. 


COSBY:  Dr.  Lee, are you surprised that with that many stab wounds, that there would be such little blood?

LEE: Don‘t forget, at that time she was 70-some years old.  Of course, when you getting the volume of blood is less.  Second, if she was knocked out unconscious or strangled.  So basically, she‘s already unconscious and only a very limited amount in circulation.  So because she‘s lying on a flat surface, in a horizontal position, most of blood going to be kept into the cavity, instead of coming out of the wound. 

COSBY:  Very interesting case, Father Robinson found guilty, 15 years to life in prison.  Dr.  Lee, thank you very much for being with us.  We always love having you here. Still ahead, the story behind these shocking pictures.  What happened to cause this aerial disaster? That‘s ahead. 

And next, new information tonight in the hunt for Warren Jeffs.  Is this man a danger to society or just to the members of his freakish cult?  That‘s coming up.


COSBY: Fugitive polygamist leader Warren Jeffs is on the run tonight, but investigators show no signs of backing down.  Long before Jeffs was added to the FBI‘s top 10 most wanted list however, he and his cult piqued the interest of state and local officials.  They wanted to know exactly what Warren Jeffs and his fanatical followers were doing in their close knit communities.  LIVE AND DIRECT right now is investigative reporter Mike Watkiss from the TV station KTVA in Phoenix.  He‘s been covering polygamy for 30 years and is even a descendant of some polygamists himself.  Mike you probably know this guy better than anybody. How sinister is Warren Jeffs?

MIKE WATKISS, KTVA-TV INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER:  I think Warren Jeffs is a man that law officers need to take very seriously.  We have been pushing for Warren Jeffs to be reined in for a long time.  His inclusion on the 10 most wanted list, while he may deserve to be there, I think it‘s sort of a scary situation, because the bottom line, ultimately we‘ve put law officers‘, hard working law officers‘ lives in jeopardy trying to find this guy.  And certainly the people around him. He is surrounded by lots of women and lots of children.  And we have been pushing to end the abuses of these people for so long.  The terrible irony would be if a woman or a child got hurt in apprehending this guy.

COSBY:  You bet. He does have a lot of followers as you point out Mike. In fact, you gave us a little clip. You‘ve done some really great documentaries, and I want to play this because this is the first time our viewers have heard the voice of this man, this is when he‘s speaking in a home economics class.  This is actually the man who is on the run, Warren Jeffs.


WARREN JEFFS, POLYGAMIST:  We live in such a wicked day.  The people on this land of America are an adulterous generation.  We do not want to be like that.  The Prophets have declared I would rather have my sons or daughters in the grave than commit sins of immorality.


COSBY:  You know, when you hear him and know this guy, Michael, where do you think he could be?  And do you think all his followers are putting him in like safe houses now, protecting him?

WATKISS:  Absolutely.  Over the last couple of years Warren Jeffs, this sort of interesting phenomenon, for those of us here in Arizona and Utah is that now the nation is waking up to the fact, oh my goodness, there are polygamists in our midst.  We have known this for generations.  Officials have turned a blind eye but they have been hiding in plain sight, in essence, here in the American southwest for nearly 100 years.  Where could he be?  He has built himself a massive new compound outside a little Texas town called El Dorado.  There is a new compound that was just discovered in South Dakota.  There is another new compound in the Four Corners area of Colorado.  Of course, strongholds throughout Arizona and Utah.  In Nevada.  He has followers in Mexico.  In Canada, really, throw a dart at a map, he should be anywhere.

COSBY:  How well armed is he, Michael?

WATKISS:  Well, Warren Jeffs has been described—and I have never personally met him.  He doesn‘t grant interviews and he‘s been a very shadowy figure for a lot of years.  But people around him say he‘s sort of a coward personally, but he is surrounded, and I‘ve dealt with these guys, he has a security force that is surrounding him.  They are said to be armed.  Law officers definitely need to take this guy very seriously.

COSBY:  You bet.  And let me play, if I could, because in the documentary, you also went inside these communities.  I think it‘s fascinated.  You people have sort of infiltrated, gone in, and I want to show a clip, this is sort of what life was like inside the community.


UNIDENTFIIED FEMALE:  I can‘t talk to boys.  It‘s really wicked.  You can‘t do anything.  Can‘t watch movies or TV or anything.  You can‘t dress like you want to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We‘ve also been taught that people are wicked and I don‘t believe everyone is wicked.


COSBY:  Those people are dedicated.  How do you see this ending, Michael?  Are you looking at maybe even a Waco style ending?

WATKISS:  Well, certainly a lot of people had likened it to Waco, the potential in Waco.  I pray this man will have the courage to step forward and face these charges.  If he‘s a man of God.  If he‘s really concerned about his followers, because he puts all of them in jeopardy, being on the run and holing up in these safe houses in these compounds.

And in Colorado City, on the Utah-Arizona border, which has been his stronghold, I don‘t think he is there anymore but he has left lots of followers and they‘re panicked, because bottom line, they‘re very nice, simple people, who are just being led by a very bad man.  And they‘re terrified because throughout their lives they are taught that the big wicked government is out to get them, there‘s that cult mentality, sort of us against them.  So the people that he has left behind, they‘re terrified their leader is being sought by the federal government.  If the guy had some nerve he‘d step up to the bar, belly up to the bar and face these charges.

COSBY:  You bet.

WATKISS:  But I really don‘t think that‘s going to happen.

COSBY:  You talk about the mindset and the fear that these people have.  A lot of people were afraid to leave them.  And in fact, in your documentary you talk about a woman who confronts Jeffs and then basically becomes an outsider.  Let‘s play that.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  He‘s making him more important than a child‘s own mother or a child‘s parents.  He‘s saying don‘t listen to your parent, listen to me.


COSBY:  And it‘s fascinating.  Michael, I want you to hold on because I want no bring in now, this is someone who helps people escape what they try to leave this sort of cycle, cults like this and groups like this.  LIVE & DIRECT right now we have psychologist Paul Martin, he is the director of Wellspring Retreat and Resource Center, where he counsels former cult members.  Paul, what type of person joins this type of a group?

PAUL MARTIN, CULT EXIT THERAPIST:  Well, it really doesn‘t make much difference what kind of a person joins.  There‘s really no typical type of profile that we‘ve been able to discover over the years.

COSBY:  Is there an age or a susceptibility in their lives or maybe they‘re moving, they‘re in a transition.

MARTIN:  That‘s very true.  We usually find people in their early 20s, usually these people are a little more highly educated than the average person.  That‘s true, early 20s, people in transition, maybe they‘ve moved away from home, they‘re seeking new affiliation.  Those are the people that are vulnerable to people like Warren Jeffs.

COSBY:  What are the worst signs of sort of abuses?  We‘ve had people on the show, Paul and I‘ve been just really astounded and horrified.  They‘ve talked about even inflicting abuse to each other, to themselves.  What are some of the worse things you‘ve heard that go on inside these cults?

MARTIN:  If they would go to The Hague these cult leaders would tried for crimes against humanity.  There‘s all kind of torture, physical and sexual abuse, infliction of incredible kinds of pain, sometimes electric shock.  Use of cattle prods.  Beatings to the point of breaking of bones.  Sadistic torture.

Now, I don‘t know, I haven‘t heard of reports like that with Warren Jeffs, but we know that he has threatened people, he excommunicates people.  There‘s been charges of sodomy against minors in the Jeffs cult situation.

COSBY:  In fact, let me bring in Mike, because you know this group better than anybody.  What are some of the worst things you‘ve heard, when people have tried to leave?

WATKISS:  Rita, I just want to tell you, really this cult is not out recruiting other people.  It‘s all born from within.  They have these giant families.  Men will have multiple wives and dozens of children.  And that‘s sort of the cruelty.  The victims of Mr. Jeffs are his own followers.  Young women are born into this, in essence slavery.  The only outlook they have in life, they have no real education, they are told from the moment they leave the womb your only value is to marry the man the prophet tells you, at the time he tells you.

And they realize if they don‘t marry these girls young, allow the girls to get older and more mature, they‘ll never sign onto this.  So they systematically marry the girls off to older, already married men and just mathematically they have to drive a certain percentage of the boys out of the community, because they are the competition for the highly prized young brides.  So you now have this other phenomenon that America is waking up to, lost boys, adolescent boys who are literally driven out of the community.  They don‘t have education either, so it‘s a very cruel situation.

COSBY:  It absolutely is.  And Mike, we will stay on this.  Thank you for being with us.  And Paul, too, thank you very much.

And everybody, stick with us because we‘ll continue to follow it case him but there‘s also a lot more coming up here on MNSBC tonight.  And for that let‘s check in with Tucker Carlson with a preview.  Tucker, what do you have tonight?

TUCKER CARLSON, MSNBC HOST:  Rita, a brand-new television network aimed at the youngest possible demographic, toddlers.  Television, like crack as we know.  These kids will be addicted early and hard.  Is it a good thing or is it a bad thing?  I personally have mixed feelings.  Then we‘ll talk to the author of the “Hot Mom‘s Handbook,” a book about being a hot mom.  She herself is a hot mom and she will be joining me on set in the hot mom set, right over here.

COSBY:  With the hot anchor.  All right.  Thank you very much, Tucker. 

Thank you.

And when we come back, we‘ll explain the story behind these dramatic pictures.  Was there anything the pilot could have done to save his chopper and himself?  And from real-life disaster, to disaster on film, the blockbuster “Poseidon” is taking in water and is set to take in millions.  But will it be this summer‘s hottest film?  Award winning actor Richard Dreyfuss joins me, coming up.

ALISON STEWART, MSNBC HOST:  Hi, I‘m Alison Stewart, host of MSNBC‘s new show, THE MOST.  Where every afternoon you decide and we report on the most popular news stories, video clips and emails.  If you didn‘t catch THE MOST on Thursday, here‘s what you were talking about the most.  An “American Idol” shocker was the most talked about story of the day, after “Idol‘s” fans voted off odds-on favorite Robert Chris Dautry (ph).

One of the most emailed stories, listen up fellows.  New research says women see square jawed guys like Mickey Rourke as good for short things, but prefer guys with rounded features like Tom Hanks for the long haul.  That‘s what you missed, if you missed THE MOST but on Friday you‘ll get another chance as we check out the cruise ship with THE MOST, taking you aboard Royal Caribbean‘s Freedom of the Seas, the world‘s largest luxury liner.  THE MOST, weekdays at 3:00 on MSNBC.


COSBY:  As you can see, we have dramatic video of a helicopter crash out of Russia tonight.  Take a look at this.  A joint Russian-Japanese rescue exercise went obviously horrible wrong, when a military chopper carrying 13 crew members went down.  Response teams were supposed to be reacting to an oil spill when the aircraft crashed.

The pilot tried to gain flight again as you can see, but the rotors hit the water, causing the helicopter to capsize and explode.  The pilot died, the others were rescued.

And joining me over the phone is a helicopter pilot Charles Bella who has experienced crashes of his own before.  Charles, as we look at the video, how terrifying is it to go through a crash?  What do you think was going through the mind of this pilot?

CHARLES BELLA, HELICOPTER PILOT (on phone):  It‘s devastating.  Once the energy of that rotating magnificence blade hits the water, everything reverts back to the air frame.  That‘s why you see total devastation of it.  The density of water is roughly 25 times greater than the density of air.  So any action that he would normally take in air would be multiplied 25 times once it contacted the water.  But the nose went down and it‘s hard to say why.

COSBY:  What do you think went wrong here, Charles?  As you look at - we hear about the rotors, what do you think happened?

BELLA:  Apparently, and this is—I can‘t give you a really good, good opinion of it, but it appeared like what we call porpoise, on water landings, we make water landings and his you touch down it‘s a little bit of weight around the aircraft.  And when the nose goes over that weight, it porpoises the nose down.  Once the blades made contact he‘s just not flying.  There‘s a possibility that he could have been trying to get forward airspeed for transitional lift, which would have permitted him to fly at a lower power setting or greater flight.  It looks like the porpoise effect.

COSBY:  We‘re looking at it, and you talk about the porpoise effect.  We know that it was also a military training exercise.  How often do crashes like this happen?

BELLA:  You know, I‘m not a statistics person on it, but I‘ll bet that you could find one helicopter incident virtually every week around the world, to some extent, around the world.  These are aircraft that one must respect and yet you stick your neck out.  Theoretically by all the documentation that man has achieved by this date, they cannot legally fly or technically fly, the bumble bee, the hummingbird or helicopter, but they do it in spite.

COSBY:  Charles Bella, we thank you for your perspective.  And one person killed in this crash, but amazingly, the others survived, three with some serious injuries tonight.  Thank you so much, sir.

And still ahead, everybody, from real disaster to a fake one, a remake of a movie “Poseidon Adventure” is ready to take on water and take in millions at the box office.  But can it beat the original?  I‘ll ask legendary actor Richard Dreyfuss next.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘m getting across, give me a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You get stuck here, you‘ll die.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  The water‘s going to rise.  And I‘m right here. 

I‘m right beside you.  OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I love you, mom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  You have to be strong.  I love you, Ben.  And I am here with you.


COSBY:  Well, as you can see, it‘s one of the biggest movies of the summer and definitely one of the wettest.  The highly anticipated film “Poseidon” opens at midnight.  And one of the stars, Oscar-winner Richard Dreyfuss, told me why this is one movie you have to see this summer.  But first, take a look at “Poseidon.”


RICHARD DREYFUSS, ACTOR:  I‘d like you to call me at midnight, for old time‘s sake.



COSBY:  Wow!  I can‘t wait to go see it.  What fascinated you about doing this film?

DREYFUSS:  The fact that Hollywood has the technology that can show you that now, that can make magic happen and show you things like that, everyone in the world—my bet, no culture in the world is not going to want to see that ship turn over.

COSBY:  I want to show a little bit of you in action.  Because this is incredible.  This is the real deal.

DREYFUSS:  Valentine.  I love that name.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You go first.  C‘mon.  Give me your hand.

COSBY:  That‘s you.  How physical was this?  I mean, I couldn‘t believe that you guys actually did your stunts.

DREYFUSS:  You know, acting is actually—there‘s a secret about acting.  It‘s easy.  It‘s like memorizing lines.

COSBY:  This doesn‘t look easy.

DREYFUSS:  This is the only time I ever earned my salary, and I want a raise.  This was hard.  Everyone got hurt.  Everybody got hurt.  Lacerated, broken, strained, bleeding, lots—every single actor.  And the camera crew did everything the actors did, except they were walking backwards and holding cameras.

COSBY:  There is a part in the film, of course, where the set actually turns upside down.  Let me play that.

DREYFUSS:  I‘m an architect, these ships weren‘t designed to stay afloat upside down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Do you know this ship?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Let‘s stick together here and we can help each other find a way out.

DREYFUSS:  This is the epitome of what Hollywood does.  This was seven sound stages or six sound stages with a cruise ship turned over, a cruise ship turned upright.  A lobby turned over.  It was 90,000 gallons of water coming into a room at one moment and stunt people thrown through the air at 30 miles—it was unbelievable.  It can only happen in Hollywood.

COSBY:  When you think the “Jaws,” it was sort of the original summer

bloc buster.  Do you think this is going to be the blockbuster this summer

DREYFUSS:  The film starts faster than a bullet and you will not have a chance to leave.  And 100 minutes later you‘ll go - and then you‘ll talk about it.


COSBY:  That was my interview with the great Richard Dreyfuss and tonight the New York Yankees are having someone fun with someone probably half their size and equally athletic.  Last weekend‘s winning Kentucky Derby jockey, Edgar Prado, who stands 5‘3, weighing 113 pounds.  Well, a few hours ago, the Yankees were kind enough to allow us to be on hand as the winning jockey was congratulated by Yankee stars Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi and Jorge Posada.  Yankee manager Joe Torre, who owns horses himself told us how important the Derby win really is.


JOE TORRE, NEW YORK YANKEES MANAGER:  I was just very proud of him.  I thought it was great.  It‘s the World Series.


COSBY:  And earlier, the jockey was practicing to throw out the first pitch at the Yankee-Red Sox game tonight.  No word who won.

And still ahead, Tom Ridge, Siegfried and Roy, Deepak Chopra, why all of them and myself will be honoring the Spirit of America.  That‘s next.


COSBY:  Well, this weekend is Mother‘s Day, but for me it‘s really a weekend to honor both of my parents.  This Saturday night I‘m receiving the Ellis Island medal of honor, along with such luminaries as magicians Siegfried and Roy, spiritual leader Deepak Chopra and former homeland security chief Tom Ridge.

For me this is such a special award.  And I wanted to share with all of you why I‘m proud to be a first-generation American.


COSBY (voice-over):  My parents came to the U.S. on the famous Queen Mary.  Back then it took about a week to make the voyage.  They left Southampton, England, in December 1955 and arrived in New York January 1956.  You can see my dad‘s last name on the ship‘s manifest, Kosabutski (ph), which he changed to Cosby when he came here.

A few years ago I interviewed him on Fox News and he shared his heroic tale of survival, as a young teen, joining the Polish resistance to fight against the Nazis in World War II.  He escaped death many times, by marching in the sewer system.  He recalled when one day the Germans bobby trapped a Polish tank.

RICHARD COSBY, WORLD WAR II RESISTANCE FIGHTER:  When I approached the street, not only the site was horrible but the smell you could never forget.  And I walked through it, looking for some part of my friends.

COSBY:  My father and so many other Poles were soon taken prisoner, stripped naked and taken to a POW camp near Dresden, Stalag IV-B where, weighing only 90 pounds he helped lead a massive escape.  After weeks in the woods he says one day an American spotter plane dropped a note to him and his men, telling them U.S. troops were waiting for him.

RICHARD COSBY:  It said you are safe to walk during the daytime.  There are no troops between you and our lines.  You have—I think it was 50 miles -- 50 miles to walk.  And you‘re free.

COSBY:  Years later my father met my mother, a charming Danish au pair.  On a date in famous Piccadilly Circus in London.  They traveled the world together and eventually became American citizens.  And had two children, my brother and me.  As I grew up, I came to appreciate the love of my parents.  And the incredible struggle they endured in their homelands, all to ultimately find the American dream.


COSBY:  And I am truly honored to receive this award on behalf of everybody who came to make this country a better place.  And now let‘s go to Tucker and THE SITUATION.



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