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'Scarborough Country' for July 25

Read the transcript to the Tuesday show

Guests: Ian Williams, Peter Beinart, Katrina Szish, Brad Hamilton, Pete Rose, Lauren Berman, Jennifer Giroux, Cory Workman, T.J. McLaughlin, Tim Williams, Phil Gordon, Curtis Sliwa

RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST:  Right now, everybody, in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, breaking news from the Mideast.  The U.N. secretary general says Israel may have deliberately targeted a U.N. base in Lebanon, reportedly killing at least two U.N. peacekeepers, this on a day when the head of the terror group Hezbollah says missiles will now be fired deeper into Israel.

Then: They called him “Charlie Hustle.”  One of baseball‘s greats, Pete Rose, is here to talk live about the Barry Bonds scandal and what the future is for the national pastime.

And he says he‘s sorry.  Christie Brinkley‘s bad-boy hubby now says he just wants his supermodel wife back.  Forget about his 19-year-old lover.  Is this guy for real?

Good evening, everybody.  I‘m Rita Cosby, in for Joe tonight, who is taking a few days off.

We‘re going to have those stories, but first, some big breaking news out of the Middle East.  The United Nations says that Israel may have deliberately targeted a U.N. base in southern Lebanon, an attack that reportedly killed two U.N. observers.  U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan is calling for an investigation into the incident.

NBC‘s Tom Aspell is in Haifa, Israel, tonight and has the very latest



TOM ASPELL, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  It appears that four U.N. observers were based near the town of Khiam.  That‘s inside southern Lebanon.  It‘s an area that was used as a prison during the days when Israel occupied southern Lebanon, from 1978 to the year 2000.  They kept a lot of Shia prisoners in that jail there.  And since the Israelis pulled out in 2000, Hezbollah has used it, sometimes as a barracks, sometimes as a storage area.  And the U.N. observation post apparently quite close to that when it was targeted in an Israeli air strike.  And we are told that the observers were killed when a building collapsed on them.

But right throughout the day today, there‘ve been rockets from Hezbollah across into northern Israel, nearly 100, about par for the course every day since the war began.  So no downturn in the numbers of rockets coming across, much to many Israelis‘ surprise.  Heavy fighting on the ground inside southern Lebanon as the Israelis push forward more than five miles north from the border around the town of Bint Jubail.  They have said that they will continue to encircle several important towns in southern Lebanon and more or less clear what they call a buffer zone ready for any international force to come in.  In the meantime, the Israeli air force back in action over Beirut‘s southern suburbs and around the southern port city of Tyre.


COSBY:  Tom, Thank you very much, in Israel tonight.  We‘ll keep us posted on any more developments.

So was Israel intentionally targeting U.N. workers?  With me now is Ian Williams of “The Nation” magazine, and also Peter Beinart.  He‘s the editor-at-large at “The New Republic.”  He‘s also the author of the new book, “The Good Fight.”

Ian, first to you.  Do you believe this was a deliberate attack by Israel?

IAN WILLIAMS, “THE NATION”:  Well, look at the alternative.  The alternative is that the Israeli army is totally incompetent, ignored all of the warnings that the U.N. commanders had given them all during the day.  Or the alternative is that this was intended, whether by the higher command or somebody—it could have been a local grudge.

But there are two possible reasons.  One is that the Israelis don‘t really want a strong multi-national force there.  Already, the people who are trying to assemble the people for that force are having difficulty because there are no volunteers amongst the countries to provide troops for something that people are going to be taking—let‘s say Hezbollah and the Israelis are both going to take potshots at any international peacekeeping force.

COSBY:  Let me bring in Peter Beinart...

WILLIAMS:  So I think this is a sort of signal to people to stay away.

COSBY:  All right...

WILLIAMS:  It‘s to sabotage the peacekeeping force.

COSBY:  Let me bring in Peter Beinart because this is what Kofi Annan had to say just a little bit ago, when this attack happened.  He said, “This coordinated artillery and aerial attack on a long-established and clearly marked U.N. post at Khiam occurred despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that U.N. positions would be spared.”

Peter, Why would Kofi Annan make such a quick statement like this?

PETER BEINART, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, “THE NEW REPUBLIC”:  Well, I think probably, Kofi Annan is responding to the outrage that the countries who had those peacekeepers feel.  But look...

COSBY:  Do you think he means this, or do you think he just—did he just say it for rhetoric?

BEINART:  I can‘t believe that he really believes that Israel did this intentionally.  This is a disaster for Israel, to hit a U.N. bunker.  Look, the United States—in wars, these things happen.  They‘re awful.  They‘re tragic.  The United States in 1999 in Kosovo blew up the Chinese embassy.  Do you think we were trying to do that, too?  That was a pretty well-demarcated landmark, as well.

COSBY:  Let me bring in Ian...

BEINART:  Israel has publicly stated that they want an international peacekeeping force on the border because they don‘t want to reoccupy southern Lebanon, but they don‘t want Hezbollah on that border.

COSBY:  Fair point.  Ian, I mean, what would be the advantage for Israel?

WILLIAMS:  The advantage for some people in Israel is that they don‘t want an international force there.  Remember, it‘s very recent.  All last week, there was...

COSBY:  Well, what do you...


WILLIAMS:  ... the signals coming from Israel were they didn‘t want...

COSBY:  Ian, wait a minute...

WILLIAMS:  ... a force.

COSBY:  What do you say directly to Peter?  Because Peter is saying, you know, What‘s the advantage? With all these other attacks, the Chinese embassy in Kosovo...

WILLIAMS:  Well, I should...

COSBY:  Were these all targeted?

WILLIAMS:  The news that I heard on the way up, by the way, that one of the peacekeepers was, in fact, Chinese.  So they really brought a heap of trouble on their heads, not to mention Canada...


WILLIAMS:  ... one of their—Canada, Austria, Finland and China were the nationalities of the...

COSBY:  Wait.  Let me bring in Peter...


COSBY:  Peter, what do you say to him?

BEINART:  Israel has stated it wants a peacekeeping force on the border.  It has no other alternative.  It clearly does not want to reoccupy southern Lebanon and it clearly does not want Hezbollah on that border.  That only leaves one alternative, a peacekeeping force.  Now, you can debate about what kind Israel would want, but the idea that Israel does not want a peacekeeping force and wants to reoccupy southern Lebanon is just absurd.

COSBY:  And isn‘t it a disaster, Ian?  I mean, a public relations disaster for Israel.

WILLIAMS:  It‘s a total disaster, but they‘ve lived through it before.  Remember, this is almost the 10th anniversary of the Qana shooting, where the Israelis did exactly the same thing, according to the U.N. under Boutros Ghali.  And many people think Boutros Ghali was actually fired for not suppressing the report that said the Israelis deliberately targeted the Qana (INAUDIBLE) base, killing 106 civilians.

COSBY:  You know, let me bring up—this is Israel‘s statement to all of us.  It said, “We do not target U.N. personnel.  And since the beginning of this conflict, we have made a consistent effort to ensure the safety of all members of the U.N. peacekeeping force.”

You know, Ian, is it possible this is just a terrible mistake?

WILLIAMS:  Once again, if it is, you have to accept the premise that the Israeli army is absolutely incompetent, has a lousy chain of command, and its artillery are no good...


COSBY:  Peter, don‘t these happen in war?

BEINART:  All you have to accept is that...


BEINART:  ... in the fog of war, massive, terrible mistakes are made by all armies, even the most competent ones.  You don‘t have to assume that it‘s an incompetent army.  Of course not!

WILLIAMS:  Well, all day—no, to put—remember this.  The local commander have been calling the Israelis and say, You have been shelling near our post.  Lay off.  And then they came and dropped the big one.  The air force came in.  Now, something‘s wrong in the chain of command.

BEINART:  That‘s entirely possible that something was wrong in the chain of command, but it‘s still highly implausible that Israel would torpedo exactly what they want, which is an international peacekeeping force on this southern border of Lebanon.

COSBY:  No, do you think—both of you, do you agree that we‘re going to see more of these sort of neutral targets, whether a mistake or not, hit at this point?  And how disastrous does that hurt the Israeli war effort?  Doesn‘t it hurt...

WILLIAMS:  Well, we‘ve already had them, Rita.  Last week, a Greek orthodox church was blown up, and a Lebanese army barracks.  I mean, the whole purpose of this, allegedly, is to support the Lebanese army and government in clearing out Hezbollah.  So you blow up a Lebanese army barracks?  I think one of the problems with this is there‘s been a lot of indiscriminate shooting and firing on behalf of the Israelis.  They have not been careful and selective...

COSBY:  Let me give Peter the last...

WILLIAMS:  ... about the targets.

COSBY:  ... word because, Peter, of course, they‘re saying that Hezbollah was using some of those for other purposes.  Real quick.  You get the last word, Peter.

BEINART:  Of course, Hezbollah has been intermingling amongst the civilian population.  These things are tragic and terrible.  If you go in on the ground, you can actually kill fewer civilians and be more targeted, but I don‘t think people want Israel to do that in a sustained way.  So ultimately, the end game here has to be clearing off Hezbollah from the southern border of Lebanon and bringing in an international peacekeeping force.  And it seems to me it‘s incumbent upon all of us to try to bring that about.

COSBY:  And both of you, there is going to be an investigation, regardless. Israel says it will look into this to see what did happen.

Also tonight, everyone—lots of news—Hezbollah‘s leader took to the airwaves, vowing to send missiles even deeper into Israel.  This comes just hours after Israel said it killed a top Hezbollah commander.

MSNBC terrorism analyst Evan Kohlmann has acquired an exclusive Hezbollah training tape that sheds new light on the group.  Evan, first of all, how much of a murderous threat does Hezbollah pose today?

EVAN KOHLMANN, MSNBC TERRORISM EXPERT:  Well, I think it‘s a question of capability versus intent.  Certainly, they‘re very capable.  I mean, Hezbollah, if you look at these videos that they put out, if you look at their training tactics, if you look at the progress that they‘ve made fighting the Israeli army in south Lebanon, this is clearly quite a capable group.

However, intent-wise, that‘s a different question.  Certainly, they espouse an anti-Western ideology, but does that carry into terrorist attacks beyond the borders of Lebanon?  And at least as of right now, I mean, it‘s been 10 years since the last attack traced to Hezbollah, and there doesn‘t seem to be a lot of indications now suggesting that there‘s an attack coming.  So...

COSBY:  You know, Evan, we heard about this one guy...

KOHLMANN:  ... capability versus intent...

COSBY:  We heard about this one guy, this one leader who was take taken out tonight.

KOHLMANN:  Abu Jaafar.

COSBY:  Does that—does that have a big—you know, when you get one of the heads, isn‘t there still a big snake below it?

KOHLMANN:  Well, I mean, he is the head of Hezbollah‘s command for the central sector.  So I mean, this is not a small blow.  It‘s a big blow.  And Hezbollah is also much more centralized than, say, al Qaeda.  So when you take out Hezbollah leaders, it has much more of an effect on the organization.

That being said, there are plenty of other commanders within Hezbollah that are willing to fight on.  I‘m sure this is not going to lead to the collapse of the group.  But the killing of individual Hezbollah commanders.  at least in theory, does have more of an effect on Hezbollah than it would, per se, comparatively on al Qaeda.

COSBY:  You know, as we‘re looking—speaking of al Qaeda, Evan, as we‘re looking at this tape, some pretty incredible pictures there.  How does Hezbollah training change and how has it differed from al Qaeda training, those tapes that we all saw?

KOHLMANN:  Well, I think one of the most amazing things about this videos, which most people don‘t notice, is the music in them.  And it‘s really very symbolic.  In al Qaeda videos, you have Islamic music.  You have nisheed (ph), martyrdom songs, being played in the background, whereas in these Hezbollah videos, you actually have very Westernized soundtracks.  I mean, I think you‘re hearing right now the soundtrack from the movie “Terminator 2” playing as the soundtrack for this movie.

So you know, they‘re very capable.  They‘re very sophisticated.  I mean, they wanted this to be a Hollywood-style production, and that‘s—again, reflecting the degree of capability that they have.  And I think this is something that the Israelis are learning right now on the ground.

COSBY:  And real quick, you know, Hezbollah spin—I got to ask you about this.  They put out a quote today, a Hezbollah official.  It says, “The truth is, let me say this clearly, we didn‘t even expect this response,” referring to Israel.  “We expected the usual limited response.”

Is that PR, Hezbollah spin?

KOHLMANN:  No, I think they‘re being accurate here.  I mean, Hezbollah

again, it‘s not like al Qaeda.  This is a really traditional style terrorist group.  It‘s state-sponsored.  It‘s pragmatic.  It doesn‘t look to seed its own destruction.  And I think by launching this attack, by capturing these two Israeli soldiers, I think Hezbollah anticipated that it would ratchet up the stakes, but not like this.  And this is beyond what Hezbollah wanted, and I think that‘s why you see people like Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah now pushing for a cease-fire, now pushing for an end to hostilities.  Let‘s hope that they learn this lesson and we won‘t have to go back into this later on in the future.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  As we‘re looking at these incredible pictures from this Hezbollah training tape—thank you very much, Evan.

And everybody, coming up: A ‘gator attacked a Florida teen.  He‘s here to tell us how he survived.  And also, a new reality show brings a camera in the bedroom for sexual healing tips.  But what is it really teaching us?

And up next, one of baseball‘s all-time greats is here to tell us what Barry Bonds‘s legend will be.  The legendary Pete Rose is coming up next.  There high school is live.  He‘s going to be with us in a second.


COSBY:  Well, he has more hits than anyone in the history of major league baseball.  He has three World Series rings and a die-hard legion of fans very much to this day.  But Pete Rose is still out of baseball, banned from the game for gambling on the game.  He‘s now a spokesperson for Pro Stars.  It‘s a sports memorabilia company, and he signs autographs every weekend at the Field of Dreams store at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas.  He‘s also the author of the book called “My Prison Without Bars.”  Baseball legend Pete Rose joins me now live.

Pete, you know, it‘s great to have you.  How are you holding up with all this stuff with Barry Bonds in the press these days?

PETE ROSE, PRO STARS MEMORABILIA:  Well, all I do, Rita, is just watch the news, like everyone else.  And Barry‘s one of my good buddies, and he‘s one of the top five players in the history of baseball, I think.  And it‘s almost like there‘s certain members of the press want this guy indicted, want this guy suspended from baseball, don‘t want the guy to beat the home run record.  And that‘s kind of strange to me.

COSBY:  And Pete, why do you think that is?  Because, you know, Mark McGwire, obviously, all that talk about steroids with him...

ROSE:  Well...

COSBY:  But they‘re always out for Barry Bonds.  Is there something about this guy?

ROSE:  Yes.

COSBY:  What is it?

ROSE:  Well, what it is, Rita, is his whole career, he has been against the press.  It reminds me of a guy I played with, a great pitcher by the name of Steve Carlton (ph), who didn‘t talk to the press, but he was nice to the press.  And Barry all these years, he didn‘t want to talk to the press.  He didn‘t associate with the press, and he was kind of arrogant to the press.  And you know from being in the business you‘re in, if you‘re arrogant to the press and they get a chance to get even with you, they‘re going to pay you back.  And I think that‘s what‘s happening with Barry Bonds.

COSBY:  But is it the media‘s fault?

ROSE:  He just...

COSBY:  You know, you got all this stuff.  You got the girlfriend...

ROSE:  No...

COSBY:  ... you got all this paper trail.

ROSE:  Yes, but—you‘re right.  I mean, he‘s made some mistakes.  There‘s no question about it.  But he‘s still a great baseball player, and he‘s still loved in the city of San Francisco.

Now, if he gets indicted, I think the commissioner said he‘s going to suspend him.  I mean, I don‘t know if I agree with that because we live in a country where you‘re innocent until proven guilty.  And if you take Barry Bonds out of that line-up, and they‘re real close to the divisional lead right now, it‘s not fair to the San Francisco Giants, it‘s not fair to the San Francisco fans, and it‘s really not fair to baseball fans in general, who—there‘s a lot of guys who want to see this guy beat the home run record...

COSBY:  Yes, what would you say...

ROSE:  ... because Hank Aaron was a great player.

COSBY:  What would you say to the commissioner, if he‘s watching tonight?

ROSE:  Reinstate me.


COSBY:  That‘s first, right?  Second, Barry Bonds!

ROSE:  Yes, that‘s—that‘s a really tough question because the only one thing you can do, and that‘s to—any player who‘s playing today, and you prove the last three years that he took steroids and you have to suspend him.  You know, I made a mistake back in 1989, I‘ve been suspended for 17 years.  So don‘t forget, baseball has only had a rule the last three years about steroids.  So if you prove that Barry Bonds took steroids last year or the year before that, then really, the only thing you can do is suspend him.  You can‘t fine him because they‘ll laugh when they write the check, they make so much money today.

But you know, as far as—and I don‘t understand why it‘s the Barry Bonds steroid situation.  It‘s the baseball steroid situation.  I mean, Barry Bonds is not the only guy that people—in this world that took steroids.  You know as well as I.

COSBY:  Let me talk about your past, too...

ROSE:  What happened—what happened to Sammy Sosa?  What happened to Palmeiro?  What happened to (INAUDIBLE) What happened to all these guys?  They‘re just...


COSBY:  Before we get to your book, how does baseball clean up all this?

ROSE:  Well, I think baseball dropped the ball with this situation because after the strike in ‘94, baseball wanted to figure out a way to get the fans to come back to the ballpark, and they wanted to create the long ball.  And they made the ballpark smaller.  It wasn‘t coincidental that in 1995 and 1996, these little second basemen and shortstops started hitting 390-foot off-the-field home runs.  I mean, someone in baseball had to say, Jiminy, are these guys that much stronger than Willie Mays or Hank Aaron or Willie McCovey (ph) or Roberto Clemente?  But they didn‘t want to check because the people were coming back and they were falling back in love with baseball because of all the home runs being hit.

COSBY:  Want to put a quote up on your book because your book is really revealing, Pete.  You say in it, “I was betting on baseball when I was managing a major league ball club in the regular season.  I just looked at the games and thought, I‘ll take a dime on the Lakers, a dime on the Sixers, a dime on the Buckeyes and a dime on the Reds.  I didn‘t even consider the consequences.”

Do you wish you maybe admitted...


COSBY:  Do you wish you had admitted it sooner?

ROSE:  Well, I admitted it as soon as I could admit it to the person who was in charge, believe it or not.  It took me from 1989 to the year 2000 to meet with the commissioner of baseball.  And I might add, when you say I bet on this, I bet on that, I bet on my team to win, OK?  I bet on my team to win every night.

COSBY:  You never bet against the Reds?

ROSE:  So it wasn‘t like I...

COSBY:  Never bet against the Reds.

ROSE:  Oh, no.  No one‘s—no one‘s ever said and no one‘s ever indicated that.

COSBY:  Were you addicted to gambling?  Were you addicted?  Do think you were an addict who couldn‘t help himself?

ROSE:  I don‘t think so because, you know, I wasn‘t—I wasn‘t gambling my—my rent money or my car payment money.  I mean, I was making a lot of money, and I wasn‘t betting as much as people have a tendency to say I was betting.  You know what I‘m talking about?  I mean, that‘s why the IRS come down on me because, all of a sudden, they say you‘re winning $200,000, you‘re losing $300,000, you‘re winning $250,000.  I mean, those figures are so out of whack.  And if you‘re an IRS agent sitting in Cincinnati, you‘re going to say to the guy in the field (ph), Who‘s paying the taxes on all this?  And that what created that situation.

So, you know, I was wrong, and I wish it hadn‘t happened, but it did and it‘s history and I can‘t—all you can do is say you‘re sorry and look for a second chance.  I‘m the only guy in this country, for some unknown reason, can‘t get a second chance.

COSBY:  Yes, and it seems like a lot of fans...

ROSE:  And I don‘t mean that in a whining way...

COSBY:  ... are rooting for you, Pete.  A lot of fans are rooting for you (INAUDIBLE)

ROSE:  Thank you very much.  I appreciate that.  I appreciate that.

COSBY:  You know, the Barry Bonds case—have you talked to Barry Bonds recently at all?

ROSE:  I talked to Barry before spring training.  He came by to see me up at the Forum (ph) shops, and he was a happy-go-lucky, delightful guy.  I mean, this guy is big and he‘s strong and he can hit.  And I know what he‘s going through right now.  The easiest part of Barry‘s day, believe it or not, Rita, is playing the game.

COSBY:  And what advice do you have for him?

ROSE:  It‘s just like when I was...

COSBY:  What advice do you have for him on the situation?

ROSE:  Well, I guess something I didn‘t do, and that‘s just be honest as you can with the commissioner, be honest with the fans.  And I think if you‘re honest with them, they‘ll forgive you.  I know they‘ve forgiven him already in San Francisco.  It just seems like when he‘s in a gray uniform, he has the problem.  He don‘t have any problem with the white uniform.

COSBY:  Thank you very much...

ROSE:  That means home games.

COSBY:  Yes, it sure does.  And you know, I‘m a big baseball fan, so thank you so much.  And also, good luck on the reinstatement.  I know a lot of people are rooting for you, Pete.

ROSE:  Thank you very much.

COSBY:  Thank you so much.

Everybody, stick with us because coming up next, a teenager who survived a ‘gator attack is here live.  And Christie Brinkley‘s cheating husband says he‘s sorry—kind of.  The latest on the Hamptons love triangle coming up.



COSBY:  A gator attack.  A Florida teenager, how did he survive?  By fighting back.  He‘ll tell us how he used lessons learned from a TV show to actually save his life. 

And a controversial new show seeks to solve problems in the bedroom by taking cameras inside the bedroom.  The question is:  Is it going too far? 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, everybody.  I‘m Rita, in for Joe, who is taking some time off.  We‘re going to have those stories in just minutes.

But first, breaking his silence for the first time since the news of his marriage scandal broke, Peter Cook issued a very public apology to his supermodel wife, Christie Brinkley, who separated from Cook earlier this month when she learned he was having an affair with his 19-year-old assistant, Diana Bianchi. 

Here now, “New York Post” reporter Brad Hamilton with exclusive details on Peter Cook‘s double life.  And from “US Weekly,” Katrina Szish.  “US Weekly” has a major article detailing Christie Brinkley‘s reaction to her husband‘s deceit. 

You know, let me start with you, Brad.  What is Peter Cook saying through the attorneys? 

BRAD HAMILTON, “NY POST”:  Oh, he‘s very, very, very, very sorry. 


COSBY:  In fact, let me put up some of the quotes.  He says, “I love my wife.  I have loved her since the day I met her.  I love her.”  He also says—here‘s another one.  “For a lifetime, I‘ve tried to prove how much I love her.  This is an aberration.”  And then another one, he also says, “I love my wife.  I have loved her since the day I met her.  I‘m also sorry.  I‘m contrite.  I‘m stupid.  I‘m foolish.  No excuse,” is the other one that he sent.

You know, as we look back on all these comments, Katrina, did any of them wash with Christie Brinkley? 


KATRINA SZISH, “US WEEKLY”:  They did not.  She is devastated, of course, and she feels completely betrayed, very understandably, and at this point I think feels that he‘s sort of backpedaling and has a lot of double-talk going on, and she definitely is not buying it. 

COSBY:  You know, what about the divorce idea, Brad?  Is a divorce in the works?  Because the attorney—let me put this up.  This is what Cook‘s lawyer said when he was asked about the divorce issue. 

He said, “There is no divorce proceeding that is proceeding.  Christie Brinkley has not sued her husband.  Cook said he hopes there‘s no divorce.” 

Peter, does everybody expect—I mean, Brad, does everybody expect a divorce here, Brad? 

HAMILTON:  Well, I think most people do.  It certainly seems like an option that Christie would want to pursue.  Obviously, from the lawyer‘s words today, one would think, you know, Peter is not interested, he‘s interested in possibly somehow, you know, repairing his relationship and saving his marriage. 

COSBY:  But, Katrina, can anybody expect that it can be repaired?  I mean, come on!  I mean, I‘m sure women at home are going, “Throw the cat out.  Don‘t ever look at him again.” 

SZISH:  I completely agree with everybody out there for thinking that.  It‘s just hard to imagine that this man who loves his wife so much somehow forgot that he loved her while he was cheating on her with his assistant and professing his love for another woman, as well, early on in the relationship.  But I think it‘s interesting to point out that I think this apology is perhaps as much for to repair Peter‘s reputation as it is to try to salvage that relationship. 

COSBY:  You know, Brad, is that what he cares about, his image now, not hers? 

HAMILTON:  Well, he certainly does care about this image.  I mean, one thing that we know about Peter is that, 25 years ago, he was arrested for selling coke to an undercover cop.  And one of the things that he talked about in his contrition, in his letters to the judge, and his pleadings to not have to do jail time, was, you know, how this had embarrassed his family, and this was not something that he was, you know, normally involved in and it was a big shame to himself. 

SZISH:  It was an aberration.  We‘ve heard that before. 

COSBY:  Yes, in fact, let me—I asked Samantha Cole—this is another one of his girlfriends, 19 years old, again, at the time, a little pattern here, guys.  This is what Samantha Cole told us last night on the show.  Let‘s listen. 


SAMANTHA COLE, SINGER:  They‘re just pulling it up, you know, to paint this more as a picture of him.  I mean, I just I didn‘t even know he did drugs, and I dated him. 


COSBY:  You know, Brad, she‘s talking about the drug bust.  She said she was surprised about it.  Is the sense from the people you‘ve talked on the ground, that people are surprised he had this in his past, or did everyone expect there‘s a lot of garbage there? 

HAMILTON:  Well, certainly people were surprised.  I mean, this guy grew up in a family of the utmost privilege.  His father was a high-ranking Exxon oil executive.  They lived in London for a while.  They lived in Spain for a while. 

You know, he just had the best of everything.  So what in the world is he doing dealing a gram of coke to an undercover cop on a highway rest stop?  It‘s interesting, you know, after all of this happened, while he was facing jail time, there was a family priest who was a friend of the family who wrote to the judge, saying, you know, this guy is a good guy.  You know, the only reason he dealt these drugs was because he couldn‘t find a job.  And, you know, he couldn‘t find a job, and he wanted to contribute somehow to the family...


COSBY:  Katrina, what a poor, sorry excuse, huh?  And I also understand...

SZISH:  Poor baby.

COSBY:  ... he‘s going to be paying big time.  Here are some details about—this is the sexual harassment lawsuit with his current—the woman that actually broke up this whole thing... 

SZISH:  Diana Bianchi, yes.

COSBY:  ... Diana Bianchi, yes.  What do you know about that? 

SZISH:  Well, we‘re hearing from Diana‘s lawyer that they‘re considering suing Peter Cook for sexual harassment, which certainly seems to make sense.  And if they do that, they could potentially sue him for tens of millions of dollars. 

Now, in order to keep Diana‘s sexual escapades, so to speak out of the court, sources are assuming that the family will settle and then may walk away with $3 to $5 million, which still isn‘t too shabby.

COSBY:  Ouch. 

Brad and Katrina, thank you very much.  We appreciate it, both of you. 

SZISH:  Thanks, Rita.

HAMILTON:  Anytime.

COSBY:  And turning now to a controversy about couples and sex therapy.  Showtime has a new series out, and it‘s called “Sexual Healing” that is raising a lot of eyebrows.  It‘s a frank look at couples‘ sex problems, but some say it is going way too far.  Take a look, everybody. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  This is for you guys.  It‘s a burlesque kit.  It‘s a back to beginning burlesque kit, so it‘s something that you are going to sort of do for him, unless you want to try it on. 



COSBY:  Whew.  Joining me now, the host of “Sexual Healing,” sex therapist Dr. Laura Berman.  And from Citizens for Community Values, Jennifer Giroux. 

Let me start with you, Dr. Berman.  How did you come up with this idea for the show? 

DR. LAURA BERMAN, SEX THERAPIST:  Well, I do these intensive weeks in real life, obviously, off-camera, with couples from all over the country here in Chicago at the Berman Center, and they come and spend a week with me.  They get intensive therapy.  They work on their relationship.  They‘re are sent on therapeutic dates, and romantic homework assignments.

And I was amazed at the progress that these couples made, and I thought it was time that we had a reality-based series that was about healing and about a real issue that nobody wants to talk about that affects millions of couples‘ lives, and that was where “Sexual Healing,” you know, began. 

COSBY:  Well, a lot of the couples display some very personal aspects to their relationships.  Let me play another clip for everybody at home. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Brandon usually doesn‘t kiss me on my lips very much.  I mean, we like to do a lot of pecking and stuff, but as far as like making out, we don‘t make out. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She‘s got a very small mouth, and that‘s... 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  What do you mean? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She just has like a small mouth.  There‘s not much room to do a lot in there when it comes to kissing. 


COSBY:  Well, let‘s take a look, because not everybody is happy about this, and I have a feeling, Jennifer, you‘re not going to be.  This is a review from the “Detroit Free Press” newspaper.  This is what they said when they saw it.  It‘s pretty scathing:  “No one who watched this mish-mash of psychobabble cliche and self-indulgent exhibitionism masquerading as marital therapy will ever have sex again.”

Jennifer, how did you feel about the idea? 

JENNIFER GIROUX, CITIZENS FOR COMMUNITY VALUES:  Well, Dr. Laura may think that she‘s helping couples, but what this amounts to is the prostitation (ph) of these couples that are troubled over a national cable network.  It is an embarrassment to her and her profession that they would do that to these troubled couples. 

Half of the time when there is intimacy problems, it is because there‘s a selfishness that‘s creeped into a relationship.  And it totally is the opposite of what God intended in an intimate act of marriage.  And I bet Dr. Laura has never said to a couple, “You know, sexual healing starts by getting on your knees and turning to God first.”  I bet that‘s never...

COSBY:  Let me bring in Dr. Berman.  Dr. Berman, are you prostituting these couples?

BERMAN:  I certainly don‘t think so, and unfortunately you read one of the one of two negative reviews we got.  We got millions—so many positive reviews.  In fact,, “Hollywood Reporter,” “Variety”...


COSBY:  And in fact, in fairness, let me put “Hollywood Reporter” up. 

Hold on one second.

BERMAN:  ...”Daily News,” everything.

COSBY:  Let me put “Hollywood Reporter.”  It says, “So much exploitative TV is rationalized with the excuse that viewers can learn from the embarrassing predicaments of others.  ‘Sexual Healing‘ is that rare program in which this is actually true.”

Do you agree with that, that there is a message behind this, Dr.


BERMAN:  There is totally a message.  And who I am to talk about somebody‘s—it‘s not my place to judge somebody‘s godliness or worthiness. 

But I will tell you one thing, that I work with religious leaders in this community and multiple communities that applaud the work I‘m doing, because sex is a very basic part of health and well-being of a relationship, and it‘s a key part of a loving, married relationship.  And what I‘m doing is really saving relationships and saving marriages, and that‘s what I see is my calling.

COSBY:  So what do you say to—what do you say to Jennifer?  What do you say to Jennifer who says, you know, sex for sex purposes, that‘s what this is about?  Is this ratings?

BERMAN:  It‘s not to me.  In fact, the only sexual content that you

see, on the rare occasion that you see it, is when the couples on their own

they have infrared cameras in their bedroom that they turn on and off at their discretion.  And some of them chose...

GIROUX:  That is voyeurism, Dr. Laura.  That is ridiculous!  That‘s called sexual...


BERMAN:  They chose to turn it on.  They...

GIROUX:  Sexual talk is also sexual. 


COSBY:  Jennifer, go ahead. 

GIROUX:  Let us talk about voyeurism of the viewers, and let us also talk about the fact that the most important sexual organ is the mind.  And if people bring into the bedroom...

BERMAN:  Absolutely.

GIROUX:  ... previous relationships or pornography, which provided by the fact that you‘ve gotten them to talk on the air about their sex lives, it is an embarrassment to you and your profession. 

COSBY:  Is it sleazy?  Is it selling sex?

GIROUX:  It‘s very sleazy.  And you know what?

BERMAN:  But you know what? 


GIROUX:  You know, a lot of time we talk about the fact that pornography is, in fact, ruining the marriages in this country.  That is what we should be talking about, and you‘re contributing to that...

BERMAN:  You‘re right.  And we talk about that.

GIROUX:  ... by putting it on the air. 

BERMAN:  I agree with you.  I agree with you, and this is not pornography.  And I would guarantee you that you haven‘t watched the show.  Tune in tonight.  It airs tonight on Showtime.  It premieres on Friday. 


GIROUX:  Are you concerned that single people might be watching this, Dr. Laura?


COSBY:  Jennifer, I‘ll give you five seconds.  Jennifer, five seconds.

GIROUX:  Are you concerned that single people may be watching this?  The fact that people are having sex before marriage and taking multiple memories into marriage is ruining marriages. 

BERMAN:  I hope they are, so that they can have loving relationships. 

I want them to have loving relationships. 

COSBY:  All right, both of you, that‘s going to have to be the last word.  To be continued.  We‘ll both be watching the show.  Thank you very much. 

And up next, deadly alligators on the attack in Florida.  One goes after a teenager standing on the shore.  Up next, exclusive.  He‘s here to tell us how he fought back to save his own life.  A hero‘s story, coming up.


COSBY:  Lots of people watch alligators attack on the Discovery Channel, but they never expect what they learn could actually save their own lives. 

Sixteen-year-old Cory Workman is lucky to be alive today, but he has TV to thank.  He survived an alligator attack this weekend, and he fought back using techniques that he learned on the Discovery Channel. 

In Cory‘s first live national interview, he joins me now live.  Cory Workman is here.  Also with us, his friend, T.J. McLauchlin, who was with Cory when he was attacked.  And I‘m also going to bring in shortly an alligator expert, Tim Williams.  He is an alligator expert from Gatorland in Orlando, Florida. 

But, first, Cory, to you.  What happened?  How did you survive this attack? 

CORY WORKMAN, SURVIVED ALLIGATOR ATTACK:  Well, I was out in the river, on St. Johns River, and I was pretty much just laying on the shore and never expecting anything traumatic to happen like it did.  And I was laying pretty much with my legs in the water and my back on land.  You know, I wasn‘t deep at all in the water, so never expecting anything. 

COSBY:  And then where did the alligator come from?  And what did you do?

WORKMAN:  Well, I never seen the alligator at all.  You know, I was just laying down, and all of a sudden I heard a really loud snapping noise, and it drug me out to the water about 10 or 15 feet. 

And, like, I started punching it.  This is my first reaction, you know.  So I started punching it.  It starts to like thrash its head back and forth.  I tried to get away with it, and it started to roll.  So I grabbed its jaws and, you know, I pulled it in to prevent it from rolling over. 

And, like, I realized that, you know, I‘m not going to go like this, and so I pretty much started looking around for its eye with my right hand.  And I stuck in my right thumb in its eye.  And as soon as I did that, it let go. 

COSBY:  And where did you learn how to do that?

WORKMAN:  Probably about a month or so ago, I was watching a show on the Discovery Channel on, like, life and death situations with deadly animals.  And for some reason, thank God, it like clicked in my head on what to do.  And, you know, as soon as I remembered it, it‘s the first thing I could do. 

COSBY:  How scared were you, Cory, when all of this was going on? 

WORKMAN:  It was probably the most terrifying thing I‘ve ever went through, you know what I‘m saying?  It‘s like I was actually pretty scared, but I knew I had to do something, because I couldn‘t just lay there.  So if I just panicked, I would have never got away.  So I had to pull myself together and realize what I was doing. 

COSBY:  And what did it feel like when the alligator, you know, was wrapped around you, was attacking you? 

WORKMAN:  Well, it was actually numb, like, I guess it was because I was in shock at the time.  I really didn‘t realize.  Like, I could see the gator, but the pain wasn‘t there when it was happening.  You know, I was just doing everything—I was more focused on doing something to get away from it. 

COSBY:  And where exactly was the alligator on you, and what kind of injuries did you sustain? 

WORKMAN:  Well, when I was laying down, the alligator came, and it grabbed my left leg.  And it pretty much dislocated—after I got back on land, it dislocated my foot.  And as soon as I realized that, I put it back in place.  I have torn tissue on the outer side of my left leg.  And I punctured nerves and ligaments in my leg, and they‘re not really sure if I‘m going to recover from the nerve damage or not.  I‘ll find that out Friday when I return to the doctor. 

COSBY:  And where is the gator?  I understand they located him, right?

WORKMAN:  Oh, well, they‘re not completely positive yet.  They‘re investigating it.  They have two gators.  One is 11 feet and three inches, and the other one is six feet.  So but they‘re pretty positive it‘s one of the two. 

COSBY:  And we‘re looking at some of the pictures, in fact, of one of the gators that they think might be it.  You think also that feeding contributes to this? 

WORKMAN:  Yes.  We were talking—me and my mother, we were talking to the wildlife investigation in the area.  And it‘s a pretty populated area.  People live all along the river.  And people are, like, feeding the food, throwing scraps down to the river.  So the investigators think that‘s really the main problem, because the gators are coming more often to the land.

COSBY:  You know, T.J., your friend T.J. is sitting next to you.  I can‘t imagine what that was like T.J.  You‘re sitting there, and your friend is attacked.  What went through your mind, and how scared were you at that moment? 

T.J. MCLAUCHLIN, FRIEND ATTACKED BY ALLIGATOR:  I was just trying to keep him calm.  I mean, the main important thing was keeping him calm down to where he wouldn‘t, you know, flip out and, you know, go into shock over anything.  I tried to wash it off with some water, tried to see exactly what had happened. 

You know, my brother said he got bit by an alligator.  I was jus trying to make sure, tried to get him in the truck and rush him to a hospital or something, as soon as possible. 

COSBY:  You know, it just must have been incredible to see, and how helpless, unfortunately, everybody feels at the time. 

I want to bring in Tim Williams.  He‘s an alligator expert from Gatorland in Orlando, Florida.  Tim, I see you‘ve got some things with you.  You‘ve got a little baby alligator there, a little hatchling, right? 

TIM WILLIAMS, ALLIGATOR EXPERT:  Yes, this is nowhere near the size of the one that got Cory.  Thank goodness Cory‘s doing well.  I hope he recovers fully.  Our thoughts and prayers are with him. 

You know, it‘s one of the few alligator attacks we have, but we‘re seeing them more and more, Rita.  They‘re starting to show up, because we‘re moving into alligator country, and more of us and more alligators. 

COSBY:  You know, in fact, Florida has seen an increase.  There was this 28-year-old who was attacked while jogging.  There was a 23-year-old woman killed snorkeling.  A 43-year-old woman also attacked by a canal.  This was in a five-day period, as we‘re looking at three deadly attacks.  What do you attribute this to, as you‘re showing us the baby alligator and some of the other things you have with us? 

WILLIAMS:  Well, probably more than anything else, it‘s the fact that there are more alligators—probably a couple of million here in the wild in Florida—and we‘re seeing more people.  And we‘re moving into alligator country.  They live in nice places.  They live on the lakes, and the rivers, and the ponds, and that‘s where we want to build our homes and our businesses. 

COSBY:  And, Tim, real quick, I know you‘ve got a skull with you.  How able are to you to detect which exact alligator did this to Cory?  Can you show us real quick?

WILLIAMS:  Well, this alligator here was about—a little over 13 feet long, so it was a little bit larger than the one that possibly got Cory.  And if we look at a couple of things very quickly...

COSBY:  Yes, real fast.  Real fast.

WILLIAMS:  ... this big hole right here, there‘s a muscle that goes back here.  That gives him all of that closing power, and that bottom jaw slams shut.  And when that animal bites, it can have over almost 3,000 pounds per square inch biting. 

COSBY:  And, Tim Williams, do me a favor.  We‘re going to have you back on again, because we want to spend some more time with you. 


COSBY:  And, everybody, stick with us.



COSBY:  And it‘s time for tonight‘s “Joe‘s Justice.”  We‘re asking for your help in solving unsolved crimes. 

Tonight, Phoenix police are hunting two serial killers who are turning this peaceful southwestern community into a city of fear.  The killers, known as the Baseline killer and the serial shooter, are responsible for 11 murders in the city, as well as spate of rapes and robberies.  And just today, police said Saturday‘s shooting of a biker in Mesa, Arizona, may be linked to the serial shooter. 

These killers have terrorized the city of Phoenix for over a year.  They‘re linked to more than 50 attacks around the city.  And here with us with the latest is the mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon.  He just announced today he‘s adding 52 detectives to the investigation.

And also with us, Curtis Sliwa, founder of the Guardian Angels, a volunteer group that is patrolling the city around the clock. 

Mayor, first to you, how concerned are your citizens tonight?

PHIL GORDON, MAYOR OF PHOENIX:  Well, certainly, the anxiety level is very high.  This has been going on way too long, and people are concerned.  But let me say clearly that this isn‘t a city that‘s gripped in fear.  It‘s a city on the offensive. 

Communities have been very supportive of the police department.  We‘ve got 3,000 officers, all of whom are focused on this case.  But we have 180 dedicated 24 hours now a day, seven days a week, of the best of the best. 

COSBY:  You bet.  And you guys are good.  I know many of the folks on your force there. 

Let me talk about the rap sheet of these guys, because it is pretty scary.  First, you‘ve got the Baseline Killer.  He‘s responsible for 21 attacks in the city, including six murders and a rash of sexual assaults and robberies.  He normally shoots his victims in the head.  His last kill was June 9th.

The serial shooter struck 34 times over the past year alone, most recently just July 8th.  Police say he‘s responsible for five murders. 

You know, Curtis, you‘re out there on the streets.  You‘ve got intense heat, you‘ve got nerves.  What‘s the mood out there? 

CURTIS SLIWA, FOUNDER, GUARDIAN ANGELS:  Well, the mood is, as the mayor said, unlike the Son of Sam situation that I experienced in New York when I first started the group or the Beltway Snipers, it‘s not necessarily folks resigning themselves to retreating into the house.  People are very supportive of law enforcement.  They‘re out there everywhere, the Phoenix police department. 

COSBY:  So, Curtis, how do you turn it so the hunters are hunted?  How do you turn it?

SLIWA:  Well, how do you turn it?  By having people come out into the streets, in this case Guardian Angels, who are defying the shooters and saying, “Look, we‘re out here in a red beret and a red jacket, and we‘ll target ourselves,” but we‘re sort of showing other citizens that you don‘t have to shrink and fold like a cheap camera, wave a white flag. 

Obviously, law enforcement is in the frontlines.  But people can be giving tips, can be vigilant, even in the sweltering heat of 118 degrees, whatever they see suspicious, they should report to the police, because a series of leads might eventually bag and tag these killers and put them out of business.

COSBY:  What kind of reaction are your getting from the Guardian Angels, Chris?  When they see you guys down the street, what‘s the reaction?

SLIWA:  Oh, they‘re coming out with Gatorade, water, offering us A/C, which is something you definitely need there.  The cops themselves, very helpful, because they realize we‘re coming from outside of the city, so very hospitable.

And more importantly, it‘s showing solidarity.  And it‘s not just residents in Phoenix, but it‘s all Americans who should be coming to the aid of Phoenix at this particular time, because it‘s happened in other cities before. 

COSBY:  You know, Mayor, what can people do that are watching tonight? 

What do you encourage people in the community to do? 

GORDON:  Well, first of all, in the community, if you know anything, if you think you know something, then they should be calling Silent Witness, because that‘s what we need, is the public help.  And they‘ve been great, and we‘ve been getting thousands now of tips that the police are analyzing.

Secondly, as what was just said, not to become prisoners in their own homes and their own minds.  That‘s exactly what turns a safe city like Phoenix into an unsafe city.  People give up.  People turn inward, and that‘s what the bad guys want.  They want us to become the prisoners.  And, in fact, we are on the offensive, and the hunted now are being hunted.

COSBY:  You know, real quick, Curtis, how complicated does it make it you‘ve got something in Arizona?  We‘ve got just five seconds left. 

SLIWA:  Well, it‘s complicated.  But quite frankly, with that resolve of the mayor, which has trickled down to the people, you know that eventually the hunters are going to get their hunted and put those serial killers out of business. 

COSBY:  Well, gentlemen, keep up the great work.  We hope we get both of these guys soon.

GORDON:  We will. 

COSBY:  Thank you.  I believe you will, too.  Thank you very much, Mayor, and Curtis. 

And, everybody, that does it for us tonight, but be sure to stay tuned tomorrow night, because on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY we have the new Miss Universe.  She joins me live for her first live, primetime interview.

And Thursday, the guys from “Orange County Choppers” are going to ride into our studio.  But right now, stay tuned for “MSNBC REPORTS: SEX BUNKER.”



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