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'Scarborough Country' for July 27

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

Guests Mort Zuckerman, Terry Maketa, Bill Folsom, Darlene Ricker, Greg Lemond, Brian Anderson, Dan Huber, Tom O‘Neil, Jill Dobson

RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST:  And right now in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, everybody, more death and destruction in the Mideast as a new al Qaeda tape calls for global attacks, including against America.  Will Israel‘s war against Hezbollah mean more terrorism here in the U.S.?  And if so, what should we do about it?

Then, monster in the middle of America.  A convicted child killer now claims responsibility for as many as 48 murders across the country.  How did he get away with so many crimes?

And they‘re America‘s favorite bikers.  The Teutels from “American Chopper” here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

Plus, shark time.  We‘re going to talk live with a man who survived a brutal shark attack by using techniques he says he learned while watching “Shark Week” on TV.

Good evening, everybody.  I‘m Rita Cosby, in for Joe, who‘s taking a few more nights off.

But first tonight: Israel calls up thousands of reserves in the fight against Hezbollah, some reports say as many as 30,000 for a ground operation.  This while Lebanon says up to 600 people have been killed in Israel‘s 16-day campaign against the terrorists.  And al Qaeda‘s number two calls for a holy war against Israel and any country that supports the Israeli war against Hezbollah.

We begin tonight in the northern city of Haifa in Israel, where NBC‘s Peter Alexander has the very latest—Peter.

PETER ALEXANDER, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Rita, good to you.  It is the beginning of day 17 here in Israel, and the pounding continues.  Within the last few minutes, as you were just introducing this live segment, we heard more loud booms in the distance.  Presumably, they‘re coming from near the border, either artillery being fired by the Israelis or Israeli warplanes firing on targets overnight, deep into parts of Lebanon and other parts of south Lebanon.

Today, we just got off the phone with the Israeli army.  They confirm that there were 110 new rocket attacks in northern Israel.  And here‘s what it sounded like in Haifa earlier today.

This was the scene when we were in Rambam Medical Center.  It is a hospital where many of the wounded soldiers from Israel are being treated.  It‘s between the port of Haifa and a naval base.  It‘s become a popular target for rockets itself.  We heard the sirens, but no explosions in Haifa to speak of today.  As many as 10 people, though, were hurt in attacks across northern Israel.  One of those rocket attacks hit the town of Kiryat Shmona, landing on a detergent-making plant.  It‘s unclear how many people were hurt there.

One of the other major headlines today came from the Israeli cabinet of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.  It was discussed what the future of this offensive would be, and a result of those meetings, it appears clear that Israel is now focusing its attention on expanding its air strikes, its superiority in the sky, as opposed to a full-scale ground war.  Yesterday, as you are aware, there were nine deaths, the largest single-day death toll of Israeli soldiers since the fighting began.  When this started, there was 90 percent support in Israel for the offensive.  Right now, it‘s still 82 percent, still overwhelming in this country.

The final major headline here, there are now dashed hopes tonight that Corporal Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier who was taken by Hamas in Gaza, will be released.  It appears clear Hamas says that he will not be released any time soon—Rita.

COSBY:  Peter, thank you very much.  Please keep us posted, and stay safe.

Meanwhile, a blistering videotaped message from al Qaeda‘s deputy leader, Ayman al Zawahiri, warns the world that his group will not stand by and watch Israel bombard Lebanon and the Palestinians.  Again, from Ayman al Zawahiri.  Is it a Muslim call to arms?  Tonight, many people are asking if Israel‘s actions are hurting the U.S. and the war on terror.

With us now, MSNBC analyst Pat Buchanan and also Mort Zuckerman.  He‘s the editor-in-chief of “U.S. News and World Report.”

Mort, Israel‘s efforts hurting us?

MORT ZUCKERMAN, “U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT”:  No.  Hezbollah and Hamas are two Islamic terrorist groups, extremist groups, who are opposed to the United States.  Hezbollah, after all, blew up 241 Marines in Lebanon in 1983.  They attacked the Khobar apartments in Saudi Arabia.  They‘ve done a whole host of things that are nothing short of terrorist attacks against America and American interests.  So anything we can do to diminish Hezbollah, which is, after all, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Iran, works out in our favor.

COSBY:  Pat, do you agree?

PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  Well, I do think that the Israeli strikes that have really been all over the nation of Lebanon—I mean, knocking down bridges and gas stations and airports and things like that—and the tremendous humanitarian disaster that‘s on 24 hours a day on Al Jazeera in every single Arab country has clearly deeply inflamed the Arab world against Israel and the United States, which is backing it up.

Secondarily, this humanitarian disaster could lead to a political disaster in Lebanon, where the only democracy Bush has built or helped to build there could collapse, and we could have a terrorist base camp and another failed state there.  So there is a real potential that this could have a disastrous outcome for the war on terror.

I would say to the Israelis this.  If you‘re going in and cleaning out Hezbollah, go in and do it, but you‘ve got to get this over with.

COSBY:  You know, Mort, let me read you what—this is Ayman Zawahiri said in the videotaped recording that was just released a few hours ago.  He said, “The shells and rockets ripping apart Muslim bodies in Gaza and Lebanon are not only Israeli weapons but are supplied by all the countries of the crusader coalition.  Therefore, every participant in the crime will pay the price.”

He‘s obviously talking about the United States, Mort.

ZUCKERMAN:  Well, I‘m not suggesting that he isn‘t threatening the United States, but...


COSBY:  Is it inflaming things, Mort?  Is it inflaming things, as Pat‘s saying?

ZUCKERMAN:  What we have been—we have been trying to kill this man and Osama bin Laden and any one of the senior members of al Qaeda now for a number of years.  We destroyed their base in Afghanistan.  We went after their cohorts in Iraq.  So we have been on the other side of that particular battle now for a number of years.  They‘ve been threatening us this way for a number of years.  This is just a repetition of an old theme on their part.  Thank God they have not been effective, and I don‘t think this is going to make them any more or any less effective.

COSBY:  Pat?

BUCHANAN:  Mort, I think you got to—you do have to agree that, look, that just like Iraq has really made the Americans very much more hated in that part of the world because of the pictures Al Jazeera shows, these films coming out of Lebanon, which have shocked and stunned Americans and Westerners, must have a tremendously inflammatory effect upon the Arab mind because all day long, it‘s being played.  Would you not agree that Israel—there is an imperative that Israel go in and get this over with as soon as they can?

ZUCKERMAN:  I have no disagreement with you that Israel has to go in there and do it as quickly as they can.  The question is, how fast can they do it?  But let me just go back to your earlier point.  You‘re absolutely right, these pictures are inflaming the Arab world.  But bear in mind this is the first time that countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Walid Jumblatt, the leader of the Druze, the—the Hariri son, who is the leader of the major party in Lebanon, have all attacked Hezbollah for acting as a rogue state within a state.

BUCHANAN:  Mort...

ZUCKERMAN:  This isn‘t the state of Lebanon, this is a rogue militia...

BUCHANAN:  Mort—Mort...

ZUCKERMAN:  ... that they cannot control.

BUCHANAN:  Mort, OK.  Mort, that raises...

ZUCKERMAN:  And they have...

BUCHANAN:  ... a question.  It raises a question.  Look, when—I saw this—when they grabbed those Israelis, I thought, you know (INAUDIBLE) the Israelis got a plan.  They‘re going to go in and pay them back big-time.  All of a sudden, we saw Lebanon being smashed left, right and center, all these civilian targets being blown up.  And some of us looked at it and said, What in heaven‘s name are they doing?  Why didn‘t they go after...

ZUCKERMAN:  Pat, let me ask...

BUCHANAN:  ... go after Hezbollah?

COSBY:  Mort, go ahead.

BUCHANAN:  Let me answer your question.  You called these civilian targets, but the airport clearly has been a transit point for arms into Lebanon for years now, and they have to make sure that they—the Hezbollah is not resupplied by Iran.  The same thing is true of the bridges.  When they put these rockets on the backs of launchers, they have to move them about.  The whole idea is to try and contain them, so that they, in fact, can be destroyed.  You look at what we when we went into in Serbia back in...

BUCHANAN:  But Mort, let me ask you...

ZUCKERMAN:  ... the 1990s.  We demolished that whole community...

BUCHANAN:  I thought that was...

ZUCKERMAN:  ... one way or another.

BUCHANAN:  ... a terrible thing to do to Serbia.  But let me ask you...

ZUCKERMAN:  So the fact is that—let me just finish!  I mean, I‘m just trying to say to you it‘s not an arbitrary thing.  Look, I‘ll put it this way.  Israel has dropped over 40,000 pieces of ordnance in one form or another on Lebanon.

BUCHANAN:  Forty thousand!

ZUCKERMAN:  Just a moment!  Let me just finish the point!  Now, less than—roughly 400 people have suffered—they‘ve been killed in all of this.  This is 99 percent effective just because they‘ve worked very hard to be...

BUCHANAN:  Mort...

ZUCKERMAN:  ... precise in their weaponry.  They‘ve even sent around...

BUCHANAN:  Mort...

ZUCKERMAN:  ... notices and leaflets...

BUCHANAN:  All right, now let me respond!

ZUCKERMAN:  ... to alert the civilian people...

BUCHANAN:  Let me respond!

ZUCKERMAN:  ... that they‘re attacking!  So...


BUCHANAN:  Let me respond!  You say they‘re using precision munitions.

ZUCKERMAN:  Correct.

BUCHANAN:  Yet they‘ve killed 20 times as many civilians as these wild rockets being fired off on Israel have killed.


BUCHANAN:  And if they‘ve been effective, Mort, why in heaven‘s name, the first time they hit a village in Lebanon, their soldiers are ambushed and cut to pieces?  And even Israel doesn‘t say it‘s killed more than 100 Hezbollah with 40,000 artillery shells and bombs!

ZUCKERMAN:  You have to understand they have been trying to—their principal target is to destroy thousands upon thousands of rockets and missiles...

COSBY:  Mort, you got 10 seconds.

ZUCKERMAN:  ... that are in the hands of Hezbollah, and this is what they‘re about.  They‘ve been going after these launchers.  The only reason that people have died here is because Hezbollah uses civilians as shields.  They hide within civilian communities.  And you know, we have a rule here in the United, if a bank robber takes a hostage and that hostage gets killed not by the bank robber but as we‘re trying to capture the bank robber...

BUCHANAN:  Mort...

ZUCKERMAN:  ... it‘s the bank robber who‘s...


COSBY:  I‘m going to give you 5 seconds, Pat, 5 seconds.

BUCHANAN:  Mort, you don‘t blow up the bank!

ZUCKERMAN:  We are not blowing up the bank, if I may say so.  We are trying to destroy...

BUCHANAN:  Who is “we”?

ZUCKERMAN:  ... military targets here...

BUCHANAN:  Who is “we”?

ZUCKERMAN:  We did—we, the United States.  It is in our interest. 

They are fighting America‘s war at this point against Hezbollah.

BUCHANAN:  Why is it America‘s war?  They didn‘t attack us, they attacked Israel.  This is the point, Mort.  We got to keep our country out of the war.  I hope Israel wins, but it‘s not our war.

COSBY:  OK, that‘s going to have to be the last word, guys.  Both of you—I‘ve got to have both of you back.  Very spirited.  Like you both so much.

Coming up, everybody: You know Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacey, but what about Robert Charles Browne?  We‘re just learning about dozens of victims he may have murdered, more than of those other serial killers.  His shocking and twisted story coming up next.

And later, the stars of the reality hit show “Orange County Choppers” take me for a spin on one of their fast and furious motorcycles.  You got to see this.


COSBY:  A stunning admission tonight from a child killer who is now claiming responsibility for up to 48 other murders across the U.S.  Robert Charles Browne told officials the killings took place from 1970 until his arrest in 1995.  Since that time, he has been convicted of murdering a 13-year-old Colorado girl.  Officials have linked the 53-year-old to at least seven of the murders in Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana and Colorado, but there may be more.

Bill Folsom—he‘s a reporter from NBC‘s affiliate in Colorado Springs, KOAA—has been covering this story from the beginning.  He joins us now.  You know, Bill, this is, first of all, a big revelation.  How did they put these all together?

BILL FOLSOM, KOAA-TV COLORADO SPRINGS:  Boy, Rita, you really have to follow a timeline to get this, but investigators here didn‘t have to go far to find Robert Charles Browne.  He was already here in prison in Colorado.  He‘s been there since 1995.

Give credit to some volunteer investigators here, actually, in El Paso County.  They‘re retired lawmen.  They have quite the credentials.  They help here working on cold cases.  They remembered the Heather Dawn Church case, which Browne was arrested for.  They remember him and thinking he was suspicious, that he had attributes of a possible serial killer.  They established a relationship, sending letters to the prison and then going down and meeting with him in person.

It went to a quid pro quo scenario where they would give him favors, he would give them information.  The bits of information came together, and it led to the revelation and his admission to killing another woman here in 1987, Rosio Sperry (ph).

Today in court, it was a half-hour session.  He went in and he pled guilty.  They waived the trial, and then he was sentenced to another life sentence in prison, and he‘s gone back to prison.

From that, though, there is much more information.  He has said he‘s killed up to 48 people.  And investigators here, working with investigators from other states, have confirmed at least seven.  You can see those pictures of those women from Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas and also here in Colorado.  We‘re working—law enforcement here is working with other states to figure out if there are more people.

If anybody has seen this guy, he usually worked in the area, convenience stores, apartment buildings, and knew his victims usually, even on a casual, sometimes a formal basis—Rita.

COSBY:  Oh, what a frightening story.  Bill, thank you very much. 

Please keep us posted.

And now let‘s go to Sheriff Terry Maketa.  He is live from El Paso County in Colorado.  You know, Sheriff, how many victims out there could there be?  I mean, is it possible it could be 48?

SHERIFF TERRY MAKETA, EL PASO COUNTY, COLORADO:  You know, the fact that he told us 48, I think there is a possibility.  The information that he does feed us has leant some credibility to the seven we‘re aware of now.  We think that number could go to 13, and I truly wouldn‘t be surprised if it did hit 48.

COSBY:  And how did you confirm the seven?  How did you—how were you able to pinpoint them, now that we just heard from Bill Folsom, in all these different states?

MAKETA:  Well, it‘s been a real challenge, primarily because most of these homicides happened 15 to 20 years ago.  We‘re relying on old police reports.  Sometimes they lack information.  There‘s a lot of missing evidence.  But the information we‘ve obtained from Robert Browne has really been gathered over a three-year period.

COSBY:  And you know, Sheriff, we were just—we were...

MAKETA:  And it‘s just taking the pieces...

COSBY:  I wanted to just say because we were just showing some pictures of a girl who—one of his victims.  How did he find these victims?  How did he locate them?

MAKETA:  You know, based on his claims, he would meet them in a bar. 

Some of them, he—they lived in the neighborhood.  He was aware of them.  He would break into their house.  But some he would pick up at bars, restaurants, fast food restaurants.  And if you listen to him, he seemed to have a knack for developing a relationship very quickly.  We believe he was manipulative.  We were often told he was charming.  And he would lure the people into his vehicle and take them home or take them to their own home.

COSBY:  And what do we know about this guy, like what he did for a living, his personality?

MAKETA:  We know he was in the military service early on, in the early ‘70s.  And after that, he really held numerous different jobs, everything from a regional flower salesperson to a maintenance person at a hotel, to working in convenience stores.  You know, he seemed to just jump around from one job to another and never really established a true professional career.

COSBY:  All right, Sheriff, thank you very much.  Good luck in putting all this—this is a horrible case.  Thank you.

An so the big question tonight is what makes serial killers tick?  What about this guy?  Joining me now is MSNBC analyst and former FBI profiler Clint van Zandt.  Clint, when you hear this—you know, the details from the sheriff—guy worked at a convenience store, went to a bar, just a very transient lifestyle, right, most of these guys.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER, MSNBC ANALYST:  Yes.  And you know, what‘s unique about this guy, too, is the very random nature of his crime, Rita, as the sheriff just suggested.  This guy would just get in a car and start driving across the city, the state, the country.  He would pick out a victim.  He would do, you know, a 360, looking around, making sure nobody was there watching.  He‘d take his victim.  He‘d kill them.  He‘d move on again.

You know, we‘ve had serial killers who have been interstate truck drivers, for example.  They would kill a victim, they‘d get back in their truck.  Twenty-four hours later, how many miles can you drive?  This guy could do the same thing.  That‘s been the challenge of putting this together until this tenacious nature of a retired FBI agent, who spent the last three or four years stroking this guy and working him for information to find out what he‘s really done.

COSBY:  You know, Clint, you hit it on the head because how many other serial killers are there out there?  This guy, if he did, indeed, kill 48 people—you know, he‘s in—in...


COSBY:  ... you know, in jail for another crime.  How many others are out there that we just don‘t know about?

VAN ZANDT:  Which is the challenging thing, Rita.  When I was in the FBI‘s behavioral science unit, we assumed there was at least 25 to 50 serial killers working in the United States at any one time.  Of course, we know there are two in the Phoenix area alone that are still committing crimes to this day.

So someone like this—you know, whether he claims to have done 48, whether it‘s actually 25 or 75, this is the challenge.  And some people say, Well, he‘s in jail.  What difference does it make?  You know, these are human beings.  The only people who can speak for the dead now are the investigators who are trying to put this together and the family that‘s pleading for information.  We owe it to them.

COSBY:  You bet.  And they deserve to get some resolution in this case.  Clint, thanks so much.  And of course, today‘s news about Robert Browne comes on yesterday‘s stunning announcement from Los Angeles, investigators saying that they discovered pictures of about 50 women photographed by a jailed murderer there.

With us tonight is Darlene Ricker.  She‘s the attorney for that convicted murderer, William Bradford.  You know, Darlene, have you talked to William Bradford since these photos were released?  What is he saying?

DARLENE RICKER, ATTORNEY FOR WILLIAM BRADFORD:  I have, Rita.  I‘ve spoken with him today.  And actually, his name is Bill Bradford, not William, and he is Bill Bradford, even in all the court papers.  I spoke with him today.  He has heard, of course, of these new developments.  And he maintains, as he has all along and as I support him in this, that he had nothing to do with anything that may have befallen any of these women, which, hopefully, it didn‘t.  And he‘s always maintained his innocence as to the two women he was convicted of killing.

COSBY:  You know, what I‘m confused by, Darlene—he said, Think about how many you don‘t even know about.  And let me play, if I could—this is the comment—apparently, his ex-wife actually spoke to KNBC, our team in KNBC.  This is what...


CINDY HORTON, BRADFORD‘S EX-WIFE:  He deserves to die.  He has taken so much from me and my family.  He‘s taken so much from everybody else.  I don‘t know why he doesn‘t just tell these people where these girls are.


COSBY:  Is it possible he‘s not telling you everything, Darlene?

RICKER:  I have known Bill Bradford for seven and a half years, and quite honestly, he has never withheld anything from me.  He has answered everything I‘ve asked him.  He‘s offered me information on his own.  And I do believe that if he could help the authorities find these women, he would do so.

The authorities came to him several years ago, before I was on the case, actually, and asked him about these photographs.  This really isn‘t news, the existence of these photographs.  The only thing that‘s news is that, for whatever reason, law enforcement has decided now to try to find these women.  And Bill Bradford told them then the same thing he‘s saying now, which is, I would love to help you, but I don‘t know anything about these women.

COSBY:  Well, Darlene, thank you very much.  We appreciate you being here.  And of course, the good news is, at least, a lot—a number of those woman have been found to be connected to be alive at this point, not related to the case.  So thank you.  We appreciate it very much.

And still ahead, everybody, up close and personal with the stars of the hit reality show “American Choppers.”  They‘ll tell me what it takes to build one of their motorcycles and which Hollywood megastar is one of their top clients.

And later: the tour de farce.  Did Floyd Landis, the latest American to win, really dope his way to victory, or could there be another explanation why he failed his drug test?  Stand by with us.



COSBY:  When sharks attack!  What would you do if you came face to face with a great white?  We‘re going to ask a surfer who knows firsthand. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, everybody.  I‘m Rita Cosby, in for Joe, who‘s taking a few days off.  We‘re going to have that story in just a few minutes.

But first, they fight, they scream, they insult each other, and they do it on television.  They are the Teutul family and the are the stars of “American Chopper.”

Paul Teutul and his two sons roared into our studios this week, and I had a chance to ask them about their custom bikes and their big hit show.  Take a look. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Everything you see...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  ... yesterday and you say, “Hey, let‘s take the day off tomorrow.”

PAUL TEUTUL, JR., “AMERICAN CHOPPER:  Listen, I was just kidding.  I was just kidding.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Oh, “I was just kidding.”


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You know what?  You know what?  Richard, Richard...

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Do you think I thought you would give a day off to anybody?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  ... I can still come out of retirement and smoke your (bleep) if I want to.

COSBY:  Is this what it‘s like?  Is it for the cameras, or do you really scream at both of these guys all the time?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR., “AMERICAN CHOPPER”:  No, no, no, there‘s no—cameras off, cameras on, the same thing goes on day in and day out and been going on from the steel shop, you know, if you were back 20 years ago, it would be the same as it was basically today.

COSBY:  Do you ever get embarrassed with them shouting at you on camera?

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:   Not really embarrassed, but, you know, it gets heated.  I mean, good, bad or indifferent, I think that‘s part of what makes the show so popular is it‘s raw reality.  There‘s nothing staged.  I mean, it is really the essence of reality.  There‘s not a lot of that on television. 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  We keep the door companies in business because we go through doors like every other day... 


PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  ... or a fist goes through the door.

COSBY:  Mostly because of you? 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Mostly because of me, yes.

COSBY:  Why do you think your show is so popular, Paul? 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  I think it‘s a combination of the family dynamics, but I also think it‘s the final outcome, which is, you know, the bike that we, you know, always—the ending of the show is, you know, starting with nothing and ending up with something.  I think people are fascinated by, I think, both of those things, you know?  But I think that, you know, our audience is not necessarily biker people.  We have a lot of families that are not really biker people that come to our shows and enjoy our shows, so...

COSBY:  I hear that fans actually stand in line and say, “Yell at me, like you do on the show.”

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Yes.  I think what‘s even better is when we were in England, all the kids in the audience had mustaches. 


COSBY:  The walrus mustache?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  They all had the walrus mustache on.

COSBY:  So you‘ve created a fad?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Absolutely, yes. 

COSBY:  Why do you think it‘s hit so close to home?  Why do you—because you talk about, you know, you‘ve got grandmothers coming over, saying, “I love your show.  I love OCC.”  

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Yes, you know, it‘s been amazing.  I mean, I think that the show really transcends age and gender.  And it‘s just—it‘s amazing.  You can be 90 or kids could be 4 years old and watch the show and kind of understand what‘s going on. 

COSBY:  How are you dealing with fame?  You know, because you go from

you‘ve had a lot of jobs before, OCC.


COSBY:  You know, but you go from an iron worker to now one of the top shows on cable. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It‘s pretty amazing.  I get a lot more women. 


COSBY:  A future wife in the works?  I know you‘re single. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, I just got dumped. 


COSBY:  It‘s a reality show, so are there any places where the cameras can‘t go? 


COSBY:  Can‘t go.


COSBY:  Are there any places where you say, “Turn that camera off.  We can‘t show this”? 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Not too much in the shop.  Outside of the shop, you know, like in our personal lives, we kind of keep them out of there as much as possible.  But in the shop, it‘s kind of freelance, you know what I mean?  You know, if something is going on in the office or in the back room, you know, they cover whatever is going on, so there is no “You can‘t come in here,” you know, while we‘re filming at the shop.

COSBY:  Any most embarrassing moments that they caught and you said, “Gosh, I can‘t believe that was caught on camera”? 


PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Yes, every day. 



COSBY:  Every day? 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Every episode. 

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Every episode there‘s something.

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  You know what?  I think the first show was our probably—right? -- the first show was the biggest shocker.  We didn‘t expect that, you know?  And it was devastating to both of us. 

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:   Yes, we didn‘t expect to see ourselves fighting on television.  We were trying to be a professional company, and we thought we were going to come across that way. 

COSBY:  Really?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Yes.  Yes.

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Honestly.

COSBY:  You know, you also have with us here the split back bike. 



PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  That‘s correct.

COSBY:  This is amazing.  I mean, when you see it, this is just beautiful. 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Yes.  Everything on that bike is really probably the best of the best, you know?

COSBY:  And I was hearing, what, about $65,000, is that right? 


PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Yes, it‘s up in the $60,000s.  And the nice thing -

see, since we‘ve been in business, we‘ve been building mostly one-off bikes.  We do have a line of bikes that we have put out there, but we have not gone out to dealers yet.  So this is kind of our opportunity, something we‘ve been looking forward to for a long time.


PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Pretty worldwide.

COSBY:  What do you say though to fans who say, “Have you sold out?”   Because OCC is sort of all about sort of the specialized bike.  And this is mass market...


PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  No.  No.  No.  We sold out the first day we did a TV show. 

COSBY:  You already sold out?


PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Hey, the bottom line is that it is about the bikes. 

That‘s our core of where we come from and where we want to be in the future.  So I think it‘s far from being a sellout.  We‘re basically giving something that people really want. 

COSBY:  You got a new episode coming up.  I know that you‘re doing a bike.


PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Four new episodes.

COSBY:  But one of them is, what, a tribute to Bill Murray in “Caddyshack”?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  “Caddyshack.”

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  “Caddyshack.”

COSBY:  Tell us about that. 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Exceptional.  You know, we have done a lot of

interaction with a lot of, I guess, famous people, but I think Bill Murray

all of us are huge fans of his, especially Mikey.  So to have him come to our shop—and, you know, you don‘t think that those people are a fan of you, you know?  So the interaction was phenomenal.  And he is who he is.  And he‘s just as funny whether he‘s on-camera or off-camera. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  That‘s it right there so far. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  So we can make complete changes. 

MURRAY:  Yes, let‘s tear it completely apart.  I had a thought in the middle of the night.  Ah, this is all crap.  We‘ve got to get rid of this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Let‘s do it.  Let‘s destroy it.

COSBY:  Tell us about the bike, too, because you guys designed a bike as a tribute. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, we built a bike that would be considered, I guess, you know, something that his character in “Caddyshack,” Carl Spackler, would like. 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  And he was involved with the whole design.


PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  He was hands on, Bill was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, he was hands on with everything.

COSBY:  You guys have had some really other amazing bikes.  Let me show the fire bike, in fact, because that is obviously a really sentimental one, and this is beautiful.  What, this was created in honor of the firemen?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  9/11, yes.

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Yes, in honor of the firemen who died in 9/11.  And there‘s actually a piece of the World Trade Center, a rivet on top of the gas tank that was given to us. 

COSBY:  How about the most expensive bike that was there?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  I think the Statue of Liberty bike might have been pretty expensive, because it was dipped—the whole bike was dipped in...

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Statue of Liberty copper.

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  ... copper, you know?

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Copper from the Statue of Liberty. 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  So that‘s kind of priceless, you know?


PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  It‘s a national treasure. 

COSBY:  Now, you guys, if I want to buy a bike for myself or for Joe Scarborough, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, anybody here, how much would it be?  For me, it would be free, right? 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  For you, and you only...

COSBY:  I‘m trying to negotiate here.  How much would it be?

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Right now, our bikes start at $40,000. 

COSBY:  So are you guys, like, living—I mean, is this like the dream life? 

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Oh, absolutely.

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Yes, this is the American dream. 

COSBY:  Thanks, guys, so much.  Continued success. 

PAUL TEUTUL, JR.:  Thank you very much.

PAUL TEUTUL, SR.:  Pleasure to be here.

COSBY:  Am I ready? 


COSBY:  My favorite part of the interview:  going around the block with them on the bike.  Thanks to the Teutuls, and thanks to OCC.

Meantime, let‘s go onto another story today.  A stunning report that American Tour de France champion Floyd Landis failed a drug test taken during his winning the Tour de France bike race.  If a second sample comes back positive, he could be stripped of his title. 

Just a few hours ago, Landis spoke to the media proclaiming his innocence. 


FLOYD LANDIS, TOUR DE FRANCE CHAMPION:  All I‘m asking for is that I be given what I think everybody in America is accustomed to:  innocent until proven guilty, rather than the way cycling is normally treated. 


COSBY:  And with me now is the three-time Tour de France champion Greg LeMond.  He was the first American to win the tour back in 1986. 

You know, Greg, what‘s your reaction to what we‘re hearing from Floyd Landis tonight? 

GREG LEMOND, THREE-TIME TOUR DE FRANCE CHAMPION:  Well, I‘m hoping—like him, I‘m hoping that the B sample comes in negative.  I like Floyd.  I‘ve met his family.  He‘s a good guy.  And I hope the best for him. 

The sad fact is that cycling has had multiple drug scandals, especially in the last 10 years.  And I just hope it‘s not another one—this is one of the biggest—if it is, in fact, another positive sample for the b sample. 

COSBY:  How accurate are these tests?  Is there any other way that he could have failed the test or is it most likely that he was, indeed, taking steroids? 

LEMOND:  You know, I‘m not a scientist, and I really can‘t answer that, but I do think the labs today are significantly more accurate.  I know there have been some false positives.  It‘s fairly unlikely that it‘s going to come up as a false positive, but you got to give him the benefit of the doubt until that happens. 

COSBY:  How much does this taint the sport? 

LEMOND:  And even then...

COSBY:  You know, Greg, how much does this taint the sport, because you think about, you know, all the stuff that‘s happened with Lance Armstrong, all the rumors about that, now this?  How much does it hurt the sport you love? 

LEMOND:  Well, I think the drug-taking has hurt cycling for many years.  And this is just one of many episodes.  In 1998, we had a thing called the Festina disaster, Festina scandal.  It was a team that found 1,000 ampoules of drugs on it, and it rocked the sport, but it didn‘t change the sport.

The only thing that I would say is that there is, in fact, Floyd is positive—and, again, I really hope he isn‘t.  I was so excited for his victory this year.  It looked to me as one of the—it looked like people were suffering unlike, many other years where people weren‘t really getting tired.  These guys were tired this year.  So I felt like it was one of the cleanest tours in many, many years. 

So my hope is that it isn‘t true.  But if it is, it‘s going to really rock the sport, and that could be a very good thing.  I think that my goal is to see clean racing.  I think it‘s a sport that I love.  It‘s one of the most beautiful sports, one of the most dramatic sports.  You don‘t need to take drugs to make it dramatic. 

COSBY:  You‘re right.

LEMOND:  People don‘t care if you‘re doing 20 kilometers an hour or 25 kilometers an hour.  The drama is the same.  If everybody‘s clean, you still get a great winner, you still get drama.  And that‘s what I hope.

COSBY:  You‘re right.  And, Greg LeMond, it‘s so great to have you here.  You look terrific, and a real superstar athlete.  Thanks so much, Greg, an honor to have you with us tonight. 

LEMOND:  OK, thank you. 

COSBY:  And coming up everybody, if you thought paying for one wedding is expensive, try four.  We‘ve got the scoop on the over-the-top plans for Kid Rock and Pam Anderson‘s upcoming weddings. 

And up next, when sharks attack.  What you learn in our next segment could save your life.  It did for one surfer who came face-to-face with a great white.  He‘s going to join us live with his incredible story of survival.


COSBY:  It‘s a swimmer‘s worst fear:  facing one of these, a big shark.  They can smell blood, prey and even sense fear.  There have already been 24 shark attacks in the U.S. just this summer alone.  And on Tuesday, a shark bit a 14-year-old surfer in Florida.  Now, officials are warning swimmers there and also in New Jersey, where sharks have been spotted in shallow areas close to the shore, that more attacks may be on the way, that everybody‘s got to be careful about this. 

Brian Anderson was attacked by a shark while surfing off the coast of Oregon in December.  He felt something lock down on his leg.  And realizing that it was a shark, he used a technique that he learned from watching “Shark Week” on the Discovery Channel to actually fight back.

And Brian Anderson is here with us now to tell us about his amazing experience.  You know, Brian, take us back to what happened that day.  What happened to you? 

BRIAN ANDERSON, SURVIVED SHARK ATTACK:  Well, I was out surfing for about an hour-and-a-half, and everybody started getting out of the water.  And then pretty soon I was the only one on the outside, and there was two other guys out there with me.  And I was just waiting for my last wave.  I was going to go in. 

And all of a sudden, I just felt like something just grabbed my leg, and then I felt some sharp needles go into my leg, and then all of a sudden it hit some nerves and then I couldn‘t feel anything.  And then I just looked down beside me, and I could just see the gray body of the shark right there. 

And then, all of a sudden, I looked right in front of me and I see this big eye just looking at me.  My foot down in its mouth, and I‘m just like—just quick reflexes.  And I, you know, registered, “Oh, that‘s a great white shark,” and I just got two good hits off on its nose. 

COSBY:  Yes, and how did you know how to do that?  And where did you learn that? 

ANDERSON:  Well, yes, when I was about 15 years old or something, my cousin and I, we‘d always watch “Shark Week.”  I mean, this was like years ago.  And we saw some segment that they were showing that the sharks are real sensitive in their nose area.  And then I was, like, “Oh, if that happens to me, that‘s what I‘m going to do.”  So I had it all planned out, you know?  Because that was my worst nightmare, you know, coming face-to-face with a shark, so... 

COSBY:  How big was the shark?  And what did it feel like when it was locking down on you? 

ANDERSON:  Well, it was about 10 feet from the dorsal fin to the tail.  And it just—like I said, it just felt like these sharp knives going you‘re your leg, and then that‘s what it first felt like.  And then it hit nerves, and then it just—I couldn‘t feel it anymore after that. 

COSBY:  You know, you have children.  Since your attack, would you let them go in the water?  Are you careful with them? 

ANDERSON:  Oh, yes, I‘m careful with them.  I got Christian (ph), a 10-year-old, and I take him out, but I‘m always with him.  And he hasn‘t paddled out, you know, that far yet, so he‘s kind of—we‘re just kind of staying in a little whitewater, which is much more safer, because the bigger sharks, they like deeper water.  But, yes, I‘ll probably be a little bit worried when he starts surfing, you know, where I go and stuff, so...

COSBY:  What an incredible story, Brian.  Amazing that you‘re here to tell about it. 

ANDERSON:  Yes, I know. 

COSBY:  And stick with us.  I‘m going to bring in—if I could, the Discovery Channel‘s “Shark Week” starts on Sunday.  You just heard Brian talking about it.  Dr. Dan Huber is the Discovery Channel‘s shark expert and also a shark biologist at the University of South Florida.

Dr. Huber, you know, first you hear—is this one of the most incredible stories, Brian‘s story of survival? 

DR. DAN HUBER, PH.D., SHARK BIOLOGIST:  Yes, it‘s pretty remarkable, and it‘s great that he was able to take some information from “Shark Week” and actually use it in real life. 

COSBY:  Yes, that‘s a great feeling for you guys, you put all this stuff out, and here it clearly helped save someone‘s life.  You know, do sharks deliberately go after people? 

HUBER:  Absolutely not.  Sharks are opportunistic predators, so they take advantage of isolated individuals.  And there‘s nothing at all about humans that they‘re interested in attacking.  It‘s just pure opportunistic predation. 

COSBY:  You know, I understand that you have some shark safety tips for people so they can stay safe in the water.  Now we‘re hearing, you know, in Brian‘s case was in Oregon.  Latest case in Florida, also New Jersey.  Walk us through some of the tips, as we‘re showing them up here, Doctor. 

HUBER:  There are a few basic things you can do.  For one, don‘t swim where you can‘t touch the bottom.  If you need to make a quick exit from the water, you‘re going to need to do so—you will be less likely to do so if you can‘t touch the bottom. 

Also, don‘t wear any shiny or metallic objects, basically because, when light reflects off of those objects, it could appear like light reflecting off the scales of a fish, which could draw an animal‘s attention. 

Also, don‘t swim at night or in murky water, because at those times our ability to see is substantially diminished, but the sharks can hunt still the same.  So they can still hunt without using their vision all that much, but we will be severely compromised.

COSBY:  Real quickly, when is the most common time when sharks are out during the day?  What time of season? 

HUBER:  The most common shark attacks occur in August and September and generally in the mid-afternoon.  And that‘s most likely because those are the times of day and the times of the year when most people are visiting beaches. 

COSBY:  Dr. Huber, thank you very much.  Everybody, stay with us.  Coming up, Tori Spelling, why is she reportedly getting so little of her famous father‘s fortune?  Find out some new details, coming up next.


COSBY:  All kind of strange news out of Hollywood tonight.  Plus, poor, little, rich girl.  It turns out that Tori Spelling might not be the daddy‘s little girl that we thought. 

To talk about all this and more, “Star” magazine‘s Jill Dobson and, from “In Touch Weekly,” Tom O‘Neil. 

You know, I want to start, if I could, you guys—I want to show you, this is what Tori is apparently getting from the Spelling estate.  Tori Spelling is getting $800,000, reportedly.  The mom‘s decorator is getting $50,000, and the mom‘s manicurist is getting $25,000.

Jill Dobson, what the heck is going on? 

JILL DOBSON, “STAR” MAGAZINE:  Well, “Star” magazine reported right after Aaron Spelling‘s death that we thought—sources told us that Candy Spelling would be the one holding the purse strings, and that appears to be exactly what happened.  And as we know, Tori and her mother, Candy, have had a falling out.  Candy wasn‘t pleased when Tori left her husband for a man who was married with two children, and since then things haven‘t been going well.  Tori reconciled with her father, but he passed away, and now Candy just might be cutting Tori pretty much out of that will. 

COSBY:  You bet.  And, Tom O‘Neil, we‘re hearing that there‘s a no-contest clause in this will, and apparently his Alzheimer‘s was one of the reports.  And apparently he changed this will just in June.  Something sounds pretty fishy, Tom. 

TOM O‘NEIL, “IN TOUCH WEEKLY”:  Doesn‘t this just sound like an Aaron Spelling soap opera all itself, with the rich and powerful, everybody screwing each other?

COSBY:  It sure does.  What do you make of this?  I mean, doesn‘t it sound like there‘s something pretty questionable going on? 

O‘NEIL:  Oh, of course, yes.  And, of course, what‘s implied here is maybe mom is behind this whole thing.  But let‘s remember, just two years ago, Tori and her dad were so close that he spent millions of dollars on her wedding before this one, and he walked her down the aisle.  Something‘s happened behind closed doors in Beverly Hills since then that they all turned on each other.  And among the things that have happened is Tori has virtually, by implication, accused her mother of infidelity during her father‘s lagging years. 

COSBY:  You‘re right, it would be a good Aaron Spelling novel or movie or—guys, hang on.  I want to switch gears, because there‘s also some new details tonight on the Kid Rock-Pam Anderson weddings.  Yes, that was plural.  That is because they‘re having weddings. 

In fact, I want to put—this is what Pam said about her wedding. 

She said, “I‘m going to get married a few times this month to the same guy. 

We had to do Malibu.  We got to do Detroit.  And we got to do Nashville.”

You know, I thought there was a typo, Jill Dobson.  Why all these different cities? 

DOBSON:  Well, the original report said that hey may be getting married aboard a yacht off the coast of Saint Tropez.  And then they have to get married in Detroit, because that‘s where Kid Rock is from.  He‘s a metro Detroit native and loves his home state of Michigan.  He also owns a home in Nashville and recorded one of his hit songs there... 

COSBY:  That‘s where he was caught in some porn bar or something, right?  Wasn‘t there something—wasn‘t there some report?

DOBSON:  Yes, an assault accusation in a strip club, yes.  So he‘s also had some scuffles in Nashville.  But apparently it‘s still close to his heart, so they want to celebrate there.  And then Pam lives in Malibu, so they have to have a wedding there, as well.  And since they‘ve been engaged twice, I think it‘s only fair that they would get married four times. 

COSBY:  Tom O‘Neil, let me talk about one other thing, too, that‘s been going on.  Let me get into the whole new sighting—this is of TomKat, of course, Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, their baby.  There‘s a new report that Jada Pinkett Smith, of course, you know, Will Smith‘s wife, has seen Suri.  And here‘s what she had to say about Suri.

She said, “She‘s one of the sweetest babies I‘ve ever met in my life. 

She‘s an absolute beauty, and she‘s daddy‘s little girl.”—

Does this put these rumors to rest that maybe this baby exists, Tom? 

O‘NEIL:  Yes, isn‘t this fascinating?  A sighting, a Suri sighting. 

And we learned that the baby doesn‘t look like L. Ron Hubbard or...



O‘NEIL:  These are real breakthroughs for Tom.

COSBY:  Which were other rumors out there, right. 

O‘NEIL:  As long as Tom keeps getting this baby under wraps, we‘ve got to wonder the worst.

COSBY:  You know, Jill, one of the other rumors is that they may get married this weekend, along with all these weddings with Pam Anderson and Kid Rock, that Tom and Katie may get married.  Are they sort of building this up, and maybe they‘ll unveil the baby, if it is this weekend, for the wedding? 

DOBSON:  They could.  They could.  We actually talked to an odds-maker at “Star” and asked him what the odds are.  And he actually put the best odds on them trying to sell the baby photo again, hopefully getting $5 million and getting it on a magazine cover. 

But there is the idea out there that they may be introducing the baby at their wedding.  We think that might be a little bit cheesy, probably bad for Tom‘s image, but you never know what he‘s going to do.  I wouldn‘t put it past him.

COSBY:  And, Tom O‘Neil, you get the final word.  A few seconds?

O‘NEIL:  Well, the baby will certainly be at her mommy and daddy‘s wedding.  Tom has said the wedding will be this fall.  We believe it‘s going to be aboard the Scientology yacht while out at sea. 


COSBY:  Right.  Well, we would like those pictures, if that happens.  Both of you, thanks so much.  We appreciate it.  And that‘s all the time that we have here for tonight.  Be sure, everybody, to stay tuned where you are. 

There‘s a lot right here on MSNBC.  You‘ve got to stay tuned.  Our great documentary, “MSNBC INVESTIGATES:  OUT FOR REVENGE” starts in just a few minutes.  You do not want to touch that dial.  Have a great night, everyone.



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