'Scarborough Country' for June 20

Guests: Susan Redman, Geoffrey Fieger, Todd Porter, Lawrence Kobilinsky, Nicholas Wapshott, Christopher Andersen, Jerry Della Femina, Robin Leach, Ashlan Gorse

DAN ABRAMS, GUEST HOST:  Tonight, we‘re waiting for DNA results to determine if a baby girl left on an Ohio doorstep is the daughter of a missing pregnant woman.  Jessie Davis called her mother for the last time a week ago tonight.  Two days later, her mother found Jessie‘s 2-year-old son home alone.  And today, police said it certainly looks like Jessie did not leave home voluntarily.


FRANK FIGLIUZZI, FBI SPECIAL AGENT:  If there‘s foul play involved, and there‘s certainly indication that there is, then there‘s someone out there who‘s heard something, saw something or knows something.  The right thing to do is to share that with us.  The right time to do it is now.


ABRAMS:  Now, we‘ve got an update tonight.  The FBI has searched the home of the man Jessie‘s family believes is the father of her unborn baby.  We heard from Bobby Cutts, Jr., for the first time today.  We‘ll get to what he said, and whether he should be saying, it in a minute.

But first, the woman who found an abandoned baby on her doorstep 45 miles from where Jessie disappeared.  Sue Redman joins us now by phone.  Sue, thanks a lot for taking the time.  We really appreciate it.  All right, tell us how this happened and where you found this..

SUSAN REDMAN, FOUND NEWBORN BABY GIRL ON DOORSTEP:  Well, on Monday evening of this week, my husband and I came home from dinner at about 7:40.  And as we drove in the driveway, we observed a small basket at our back door, and we remarked to one other, I wonder who‘s brought us something?  We live in a rural area, so we thought maybe some garden produce.

We went into the garage, came to the house.  And I put my purse down and went to the back door, where the basket was sitting and opened the door, and much to our amazement was a sleeping infant.  And I said to my husband, Look at this.  Am I dreaming?  And he said, No, you‘re not.  That is a baby.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Do you have any idea why someone would have left an infant at your front (SIC) door?

REDMAN:  Well, my guess is—over the years, I‘ve had close relationships with young girls.  I was a school nurse for many years in Wooster city schools and got to know a lot of young girls.  They had a lot of confidence in me and they trusted me.  And I am thinking that possibly one of those girls has found my home and decided to leave her baby with me, trusting me that I will make sure the child gets good care.

ABRAMS:  Now, so it sounds like you do not think it‘s connected to this case.  But it‘s worth asking.  This has never happen to you before, has it?

REDMAN:  Oh, no.  No, no.  No.  And you know, I will not say that it is not connected to the other case.  I can never say never.


REDMAN:  I would be very surprised, but I‘ve been surprised before.

ABRAMS:  Where is the child now, Sue?

REDMAN:  The child remains at Wooster Community Hospital, and it will very soon go into foster care.

ABRAMS:  OK.  And I know that they‘re going to do DNA tests, as well.  Sue Redman, thanks a lot for taking the time to call in.  We really appreciate it.

REDMAN:  You‘re welcome.

ABRAMS:  We‘re joined now by criminal defense attorney, and many other types of attorney, Geoffrey Fieger, former FBI profiler and MSNBC analyst Clint Van Zandt, and Larry Kobilinsky, professor with John Jay College of Criminal Justice.  He‘s also a DNA and forensics expert.

You know, I got to start, Geoffrey, by asking you—we‘re getting a report from our reporter on the scene, who‘s saying that—or at least, one of the reporters on the scene—who‘s saying that when they went to the boyfriend‘s home to search—and they went again tonight—that they read him his Miranda, the Miranda warning.  They said it‘s standard procedure.  Is that standard procedure when you go to search a home?

GEOFFREY FIEGER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Sure, because he‘s the first person—anything he says or might say might be used against him.  And he‘s obviously the first person of interest in these types of situations, Dan, as you know.

ABRAMS:  But doesn‘t that mean he‘s a suspect?  I mean...

FIEGER:  Of course he is because in these type of situations, when a woman disappears or is—meets with some type of violence, in 9 out of 10 cases, she knows the attacker.  And far too often, it is a close relationship, either a husband or a boyfriend.

The problem that I see here is that he is a member of the police force, so he‘s very knowledgeable about the investigative techniques, and he may have friends within the department.  So that‘s going to be an interesting situation.

ABRAMS:  All right.  We‘ll get back to more about Bobby Cutts in a minute.  But Clint, let‘s talk about this issue about this baby that‘s been found 45 miles away.  I mean, it sounds like the woman who found the child doesn‘t think it‘s related to this case, but it is awfully coincidental that you‘re talking about 45 miles away, lo and behold, a one-day old baby girl ends up on the doorstep.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER, MSNBC ANALYST:  Sure.  You know, the missing woman, Dan, as you know, was due to deliver on or about July 3.  So you know, the numbers are close, and everything else here is close.  I think the issue is, though—you know, whatever I speculate, even though I do not think the baby is related to the missing woman case, doesn‘t make any difference because somebody like Larry‘s going to come in and say DNA makes it or doesn‘t make it.  And then if it‘s not, then we have to move back again to the case of the missing woman, where, of course, the local authorities here might want to find out whose baby this is.

ABRAMS:  Well, we know something at this point, Larry Kobilinsky. 

Apparently, this is a Caucasian baby, all right?  This was a mixed couple,

African-American father, white mother.  Do you know the percentages as to -

you know, what the percentage chance could be that there would be what appears to be a Caucasian baby girl, if they parents are mixed?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST:  Yes, Dan, I don‘t know the exact statistics, but it certainly is possible that the baby would appear to be Caucasian, despite the fact that it‘s a mixed marriage (SIC).  I think the only way to identify this baby is through DNA analysis.  And I‘m just surprised that the authorities are saying it‘s going to take about 12 days.

ABRAMS:  Yes.  Why?

KOBILINSKY:  You know, I—there are two different ways to do this, to tie the child to the mother.  One way is the typical DNA analysis that they do in criminalistics.  I got to tell you, that kind of testing can be done in about a day-and-a-half to two days.


KOBILINSKY:  And—I mean, but there is no mother available to test, so you‘ve got to go get her toothbrush, her hairbrush or her clothing so that you can get a—what I call a “pseudo-exemplar.”


KOBILINSKY:  The other way to do it is through mitochondrial DNA, and that requires the grandmother.  The grandmother and the grandchild can be compared, the maternal lineage, and that testing could take two weeks.

ABRAMS:  The FBI took questions today about this newborn girl, and here‘s what they said.


QUESTION:  From the other information that you‘ve gathered from visually looking at the child and from talking to the couple that found the child on their doorstep, are you really seriously thinking that this could be her child?

FIGLIUZZI:  We haven‘t ruled it out.  It‘s premature to make a decision based solely on visual observation.


ABRAMS:  Clint, anything else they can do, at this point, before the DNA comes back?

VAN ZANDT:  Oh, I think—you know, he‘s talking about visual, Dan.  We‘ve seen the one biological child of the missing woman and the—I guess, as Geoff says, the suspect.  I agree.  I think this guy is the strongest suspect as they have right now.  I mean, he exhibits very strong coloration, but you know, Larry‘s going to be the first to tell us that that may not be the case.

So you know, I think the FBI can continue to help in this investigation.  And Dan, one of the things I think they‘re doing, too—I think the police are cutting themselves some slack.  I think when they say it could take two weeks, it‘s going to be a wink, wink, nod, nod.  Well, they know, you know, We can knock this off in three or four days, give ourselves a little space where the media‘s not looking over our shoulder, and then see if this information actually plays into this case or not and not have a dead (ph) race between us and the media trying to figure this out.

ABRAMS:  That is—that is their child.  I mean, we know that that is

you know, that is their child that we‘re looking at right there.  And that, of course, is the same little boy who apparently was present when the grandmother came home and started—you know, obviously called 911.  And this boy apparently made a couple of comments that mommy was crying, table was broken, that mommy‘s in the rug.

Let‘s get the 911 call ready because this is a—this is what happened when the mother called 911.  Remember that she says that Jessie spoke to her mother on Wednesday, and this is two days later, on Friday.


PATTY PORTER, MISSING WOMAN‘s MOTHER:  My daughter‘s gone.  She‘s due in two weeks, and my grandson‘s here alone, and this whole house has been ransacked.

911 OPERATOR:  How old is your...

PATTY PORTER:  My grandson‘s 2.

911 OPERATOR:  And he‘s gone?

PATTY PORTER:  He‘s here alone!

911 OPERATOR:  OK, you need to calm down so I can understand you.

PATTY PORTER:  I‘m trying!


PATTY PORTER:  He‘s here alone, and she‘s gone.  Her car‘s here.

911 OPERATOR:  Who‘s gone?

PATTY PORTER:  My daughter!


ABRAMS:  All right.  Geoffrey Fieger, important piece of evidence, right, that you‘ve got a 2-year-old who was there, although it‘s always difficult to know exactly what to make of it.

FIEGER:  Well, let me go back.  The idea that, for instance, the child found at the doorstep 45 miles away is hers is absurd.  Unless people have no observational skills, and if you see what Mr. Cutts looks like, a mixed child—there is no possibility that you would mistake that for a Caucasian child.  Moreover, that would indicate that she voluntarily absented herself from the house, which I think is equally absurd, especially with her 2-year-old child there.  She didn‘t leave voluntarily, let alone then having her child born in her absence and then deliver it...

ABRAMS:  Look, something awful could have happened to her and they could have taken the child.

FIEGER:  Yes, but that‘s almost—that‘s patently absurd, too.  What I think is much more likely, in light of these circumstances—and you can hear the grandmother‘s plea—is that she has been abducted either by somebody she knows or doesn‘t know...

ABRAMS:  All right...

FIEGER:  ... and she has met with...


ABRAMS:  Everyone‘s going to stick around again.  The police are officially saying that the boyfriend not a suspect.  Important to point out.  Everyone‘s going to stay with us.

Up next, more about Jessie Davis‘s boyfriend, Bobby Cutts, Jr.  He‘s speaking out.  We‘ve got the tape.  I‘m not so sure it was a good idea that he did it.


BOBBY CUTTS, JR., FATHER OF MISSING WOMAN‘S CHILDREN:  I would be dumb and naive to think that they weren‘t treating me as a suspect.


ABRAMS:  That‘s what he said.  We‘ll talk about it.

Plus, more from Princes William and Harry, this time what they think of America, and we‘ll look at what Americans really think of them.

And later: It seems everyone‘s talking about the Hillary and Bill Clinton “Sopranos” spoof.  Oh, so great.  It was so funny.  It really shows another side of the—but was it really good for her image?


ABRAMS:  We‘re back.  It‘s been a week since anyone‘s heard from 26-year-old Jessie Davis.  There has been a lot of talk about the man who is the father of Jessie‘s 2-year-old son.  Her married boyfriend, Bobby Cutts, Jr., has spoken out, denying he was responsible and answering some questions about his relationship with Jessie and his wife.

My take.  This guy‘s a police officer.  He knows that anything he says can and will be used for or against him.  And when you‘re speaking publicly after a pregnant girlfriend who‘s not your wife goes missing, you‘ve got to either come totally clean or shut up.  I‘m not sure he‘s doing either.  He seemed unwilling, at times, to directly address some of the questions posed to him by a local print reporter.


TODD PORTER, “CANTON REPOSITORY” NEWSPAPER:  Do you believe Jessie will be found alive?

CUTTS:  Hopefully, she‘ll found alive.

TODD PORTER:  Bobby, did you have anything at all to do with the disappearance of Jessie?

CUTTS:  No, I didn‘t.

TODD PORTER:  Have authorities given you any indication if you‘re a suspect?

CUTTS:  I mean, they continue to say that I‘m not a suspect.  But I mean, I would be dumb and naive to think that they weren‘t treating me as a suspect (INAUDIBLE) different things I‘ve had to go through in the past couple days.


ABRAMS:  The man who spoke with Bobby Cutts, Jr., joins us from Canton.  Todd Porter‘s a reporter for “The Canton Repository” newspaper.  Thanks very much for joining us.  We appreciate it.  All right, so you‘ve been the only one to get a chance to speak to him, at least from the public.  What did he seem like to you?  Did he seem nervous?  Did he seem uncomfortable?

TODD PORTER:  If I could describe it in one word, I would say he seemed exhausted.  He seemed like a guy that was mentally, physically and emotionally exhausted yesterday when I spoke with him, distraught, sullen.  He seemed depressed.  It was unlike any interview that I‘ve done.  And the last time that I‘ve seen anybody express emotion like that would probably be, like, similar to a funeral or being in a hospital when you‘ve just learned that some has died, someone close to you has died, that sort of grief that you have then, and can hardly speak.  You know what I mean?

ABRAMS:  Yes.  I mean, this is a guy you‘ve known before, right?  I mean, you didn‘t just meet him as a reporter, you‘d known him around town at least to some degree.  What‘s he like?  I mean, we‘ve heard, as of late, some not so great things about him come out.

TODD PORTER:  Yes.  Normally—I first met Bobby Cutts, Jr., about three-and-a-half years ago.  He played minor indoor football for a local team here.  It was kind of a feel-good story, the local cop who worked the midnight shift, and he went and practiced with his team and played games once a week for about 200 bucks a game.  So it was kind of a feel-good story.

Normally, he‘s a reserved guy, quiet guy, happy-go-lucky.  He smiles a lot, tells jokes a lot.  That would be his normal personality, very reserved—very reserved fellow.

ABRAMS:  You know, look, I think that there is a danger for someone like him in doing an interview like this because—I‘m going to play another piece of sound here—he comes across on some of the crucial issues a bit wishy-washy at times.  In particular here, you‘re talking to him about whether his wife knew about his ongoing relationship with Jessie.


TODD PORTER:  How much does your wife, Kelly (ph), know about your relationship with Jessie?

CUTTS:  She knows about the relationship.  She knows, you know, things that are going on.

TODD PORTER:  How long has she been aware of that?

CUTTS:  I don‘t remember exactly.


ABRAMS:  I don‘t quite get that.  What does that mean, that his wife knew that he was having a child with his ex-girlfriend?

TODD PORTER:  Yes, well, number one, I‘m not sure that anyone—early

later in the interview, he does say the child is “possibly” his.  That, I thought, was a key point.  I think—any time I tried to pin him down on the timeframe, be it last Wednesday to last Wednesday night to early Thursday morning, or be it how long his wife has known about the relationship with Jessie, he did get a little iffy on that.  It was almost as if he did not want to be pinned down, he did not want to say for sure just how long.

But then again, you never know how distraught somebody is and just—they‘re not in their normal element.  This isn‘t a normal day for him.

ABRAMS:  As a cop, this is a guy who knows that he‘s going to be questioned.  It‘s clear from your interview he‘s not surprised that they‘re looking at him.  And yet when you talk to him about some of the crucial issues, like the one I‘m about to play, as you point out, he doesn‘t seem to be willing to answer the questions directly.  Let‘s listen.


TODD PORTER:  For the record and to clear this up, how many children do you have...

CUTTS:  I currently have three children.

TODD PORTER:  And expecting a fourth with Jessie, correct?

CUTTS:  Possibly, yes.


ABRAMS:  What does that mean, “Possibly yes”?  Possibly meaning she may be dead or he may possibly be the father?

TODD PORTER:  I took that to mean he may possibly be the father because everything that we talked before the interview in sort of just getting to feel one another out for this interview, when the tape wasn‘t rolling, was he was hopeful that Jessie would be found alive.  And he‘s obviously hopeful that the unborn child will be found alive.

ABRAMS:  So what is...

TODD PORTER:  I took that to mean...

ABRAMS:  So what is his explanation for what their relationship was?  I mean, he‘s a married guy.  What is his explanation for what was going on between him and Jessie?

TODD PORTER:  Well, his explanation is, is he was separated previous from his wife.  And that, I believe, is when the first child, the 2-year-old, was born, Blake.  And he said that, Things happened when we were separated.  He knows that he obviously didn‘t make very good decisions.  And Dan, I‘ll tell you what.  There are not many adults involved in this case who made very good decisions.

ABRAMS:  Todd Porter, thanks a lot for joining us—a big get.  It‘s also an important get in terms of letting the public understand a little bit more about this guy.  I think this is an important piece of the puzzle.  Thanks for joining us.

TODD PORTER:  Dan, thank you.

ABRAMS:  Clint Van Zandt, what do you make of the interview?

VAN ZANDT:  Well, two things.  Number one, he—our police officer seems to forget that he has another child in California by a girlfriend.  So his numbering system is a little off.  And number two, there was a statement I‘ve heard attributed to him, Dan, where he says, I‘m a dad, and I want my daughter back.  That seems to forget about the woman that‘s carrying his daughter, too.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Now, Larry Kobilinsky, apparently, you‘ve—you think that it‘s really possible that someone has kidnapped Jessie to steal the baby, right?

KOBILINSKY:  There have been eight documented cases since 1987 of women that go in and abduct a fetus.  And they take these babies through caesarian activity.  Listen, we don‘t know the motive here.  And if the motive was to kill this woman, they would have killed her and left her there.  The motive appears to be—especially given the bleach present.  The motive was, I think, to take that baby, to do a caesarian, remove that baby.  There would be blood, and therefore, somebody brought bleach there to get rid of that blood.

ABRAMS:  But Larry, what—I mean, and again, you‘re basing that on -

on what, just...

KOBILINSKY:  Well, it just—because I think we have to determine a motive.  Who would have done this and for what?  You know, somebody brought that bleach to the bedroom.  It‘s not normally there.  Why did they bring it?  To cover up or get rid of blood.  Why was she targeted?  I think because she was nine months pregnant.  We‘ve had a lot of cases like this.

ABRAMS:  Well, I think—I think it‘s—I think it‘s pretty likely she was targeted because she was nine months pregnant.


ABRAMS:  The question—the question is by who and why.  Geoffrey Fieger?

FIEGER:  Well, it‘s interesting, also, the statements of the young son, the 2-year-old.  He would know who his father was, and he made no statements, at least as reported to us, about his father, only that his mother was in the rug.  I agree the circumstances are rather unusual.  Although he sounds like the noose is tightening around him, what is his motive?  I mean, obviously, his former wife knew about it?  What did he gain by this?

ABRAMS:  I think that this case is going to be cracked in one way or another within a week.  I think we‘re going to see some resolution of this case.  Hopefully, a good resolution.  Hopefully, she will be found.  But I expect that we‘re going to see something very quickly on this.

FIEGER:  I agree.

ABRAMS:  All right, Geoffrey Fieger, Clint Van Zandt, Larry Kobilinsky, thanks.  Appreciate it.

VAN ZANDT:  Thank you.

KOBILINSKY:  A pleasure.

ABRAMS:  Coming up: Exclusive, exclusive, exclusive, exclusive—our friend Anderson Cooper shows us how many times you can say exclusive in one not so exclusive interview.




Parallel parking.


ABRAMS:  Plus: Hillary‘s “Sopranos” spoof.  Everyone‘s talking about it.  Oh, it was so great!  It was so funny, showed another side of her.  Is it really?  We‘ll ask one top ad exec if maybe, just maybe, this isn‘t the image she wants to project.


ABRAMS:  Time now for “Beat the Press,” our daily look back at the absurd and sometimes amusing perils of live TV.  First up, on CNN, my friend, Fred Goldman, the father of Ron Goldman, who‘s become a great spokesman for victims‘ rights in this country, appearing on TV programs, including my own, many times over the years.  But for Anderson Cooper, apparently, getting Fred on the show was a big get, an exclusive worth repeating over and over.


ANDERSON COOPER, “360”:  We have the new details and the “360” exclusive interview with Fred Goldman.

Tonight, a pair of “360” exclusives.

After the break, another exclusive.

Also another exclusive, Fred Goldman on O.J. Simpson‘s book.

We‘ve got the copy of it here exclusively.

Fred Goldman joins me now in a CNN exclusive interview.


ABRAMS:  Oh, God!  Next up: You know, it‘s really got to be tough being Matt Lauer, getting the chance to interview the movers and shakers in this country while being adored by women everywhere, and not just any women, like Pam Anderson women.


PAM ANDERSON, ACTRESS:  I‘m in love with you.


ANDERSON:  But you‘re married and have a son or a baby or...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Three children.  You (INAUDIBLE) and Matt (ph), come here.  Let me show you my bruises.


LAUER:  I mean, I don‘t know if we can get a shot...

ANDERSON:  I named this one after you.  This is—this is Matt Lauer. 

I love you.

LAUER:  I love you, too.


ABRAMS:  Did you catch that?  Pam really, really likes Matt.  Yes, yes, I am jealous.  Yes.  Yes.

And finally: I consider Geraldo Rivera to be a good friend.  Back in the day, he gave me a big opportunity, let me fill in on his legal talk show.  I‘ve always appreciated that and him.  But I‘m not sure I needed to see this side of him.


GERALDO RIVERA, “GERALDO AT LARGE”:  Here‘s my Father‘s Day.  I got breakfast in bed.  That‘s my 14-year-old on your left, Isabella (ph), French toast, bacon.  The house smelled of bacon for...


RIVERA:   That really is—really so sweet.  It had everybody.  Even the dog was in bed.


ABRAMS:  I love his kids.  But the no shirt?  Come on!  We can just stay friends, you know?

Coming up: Should Hillary whack her campaign advisers for this “Sopranos” spoof?  Was it really as great as everyone seems to be saying?



PRINCE HARRY:  (INAUDIBLE) I‘m responsible for someone else being injured in any way at all.


ABRAMS:  Prince Harry on why he wasn‘t sent to Iraq and what the royal family really thinks about America.


ABRAMS:  Coming up, it seems everyone is talking about Hillary and Bill Clinton‘s “Sopranos” spoof.  Was it really that great?  We‘ll get that in a minute. 

But, first, I said it before, I‘ll say it again, I wasn‘t particularly interested in the royal family.  I certainly knew about the princes, that their every move was in the tabloids in England.  As for what they‘re really like, I wasn‘t that interested, until Matt Lauer‘s interview with Princes William and Harry.  Matt talked to the princes back in April.  Harry was getting ready to be deployed to Iraq.  A few weeks later, the British military decided against sending him with the rest of his unit.  


MATT LAUER, “TODAY” SHOW HOST:  So if the military decided, you know what, it‘s too risky to you and the others, and we‘re not going to send you to Iraq, would you be disappointed? 

PRINCE HARRY:  I would be disappointed, but, I mean, I think I can safely say that my guys would be disappointed.  All that training that you‘ve done as a group, you know each other, how each other works.  You know when someone‘s grumpy without having to ask them, et cetera, et cetera just with, you know, there‘s that bond.

LAUER:  So it would break up this cohesive group at exactly the wrong time?

PRINCE HARRY:  At exactly the wrong time.  But at the same time, I can completely understand, because the last thing I want is to feel myself that I‘m responsible for someone else being injured in any way at all.

LAUER:  Do you worry?

PRINCE WILLIAM:  Yeah, I worry.

PRINCE HARRY:  He‘s not bothered at all.

PRINCE WILLIAM:  Good to get him out of the house, you know, and get away from us.  But at the same time, of course, I worry.  But I‘ve got full confidence in what he does.  You know, he knows what he‘s doing, and he‘s very good at what his job is.  And, also, I‘ve got full confidence that, you know, that if things do get out of hand that, you know, measures will be taken to make sure that no one else is hurt.

LAUER:  And you‘ve got similar training now. 


LAUER:  And yet you won‘t see that type of action. 

PRINCE HARRY:  Well, I don‘t know that yet.  I don‘t know.  I live every day that I might hope to get to do what he does, because, otherwise, what‘s the point of me doing all my training and be there for my guys?  And I can turn around to them and go, “Well, I‘m far too important.  I‘m not going.”

LAUER:  How would you describe your relationship?  And how close are you two?  How often do you get to see each other and talk to each other?  I mean, you‘ve got...

PRINCE HARRY:  As little as possible.

LAUER:  ... very busy lives individually.  Do you e-mail each other? 

You text message each other?  How do you...


LAUER:  ... do you get a nightly phone call?

PRINCE HARRY:  We are slightly normal.  We have a normal side to us.

LAUER:  Facebook?  You know, MySpace.com?

PRINCE HARRY:  We do.  We contact each other the normal way, text messages, phone calls.

PRINCE WILLIAM:  Usually means he‘s left something at home and I have to bring it for him.

LAUER:  If your last name weren‘t “Windsor,” if it were “Smith” or “Jones,” and you didn‘t have the duties that you were born into, what would you want to do professionally?

PRINCE HARRY:  All sorts of things.

LAUER:  Like what?

PRINCE WILLIAM:  Well, when I was younger, I wanted to be a policeman. 

And I wouldn‘t want to be that now.

LAUER:  The most popular cop on the block.

PRINCE WILLIAM:  Yeah, exactly.

LAUER:  What would you want to do?

PRINCE HARRY:  I think it‘s...

PRINCE WILLIAM:  I don‘t know.  It‘s a really tricky question.  It goes through my head lots.  I‘d like to fly helicopters, definitely.  I‘d like to be some sort of heli pilot, you know, working for the U.N. maybe or something like that.  Go off and do some, you know—I‘d have to be doing something active, outside, and doing sort of fun stuff, but with an edge to helping people.

LAUER:  What about you, Harry?

PRINCE WILLIAM:  He‘d probably sit and play computer games and drink beer.

PRINCE HARRY:  Oh, thanks a lot.  No, honestly, I don‘t know how well this would get on, but I‘d probably live in Africa.  I‘d like to spend all my time out there.

LAUER:  In a humanitarian aspect?

PRINCE HARRY:  Both; it would be a humanitarian aspect and as well as a sort of a safari aspect.  As a job, it would probably be a safari guide.  And then...

PRINCE WILLIAM:  It would be really good for me because he wouldn‘t be around, you see?  So I‘d get the whole house to myself.

PRINCE HARRY:  And at the same time, you know, spending my time between a charity, you know, in Lesotho, probably in Lesotho, as well, if, you know, if I became normal tomorrow, then I‘d help Lesotho.

LAUER:  That word “normal” comes up a lot, doesn‘t it?  It really is. 

It‘s kind of the Holy Grail out there.

PRINCE HARRY:  I feel abnormal.

LAUER:  And you‘ve been to the United States.  You spent a little time in Tennessee.  You mentioned Disney World.  What are your impressions of the US?

PRINCE HARRY:  Horrible.

PRINCE WILLIAM:  Oh, my god, no.

LAUER:  You know that‘s the headline.

PRINCE WILLIAM:  Yeah, exactly.

LAUER:  “Harry Calls U.S. ‘Horrible.‘”

PRINCE HARRY:  No, I think it‘s such an amazing place.  It‘s so vast and on such a massive scale and there‘s so much to do, and it‘s so different.

PRINCE WILLIAM:  I love America.  I think it‘s brilliant.  I have a really good time when I‘m over there.  Everyone‘s really friendly, welcoming.  And yet they‘re very good at sort of not being too invasive.  It‘s cool.  It‘d be nice to get back to America sometime soon.


ABRAMS:  Not too invasive.  Joining me now, Christopher Andersen, author of the book, “After Diana:  William, Harry, Charles and the Royal House of Windsor.”  And Nicholas Wapshott, royal watcher and national and foreign editor of “The New York Sun.” 

Thanks a lot to both of you.  Appreciate it. 

All right, Nicholas, let me ask you.  This issue of them serving in the military.  Harry went in before William? 

NICHOLAS WAPSHOTT, “THE NEW YORK SUN”:  Harry went in before William.  Well, neither of them—William went in first to the military, but neither of them have served in active duty. 

ABRAMS:  Christopher, I mean, explain that to me, how that happened.  

CHRISTOPHER ANDERSEN, AUTHOR OF “AFTER DIANA”:  Well, actually, Harry is the senior.  William went to the St. Andrews University in Scotland, and Harry went straight to Sanders (ph), so he‘s got a little edge on his older brother, strangely enough.

The interesting thing about this interview, I think, as far as the military is concerned, is that William had said previously that he had come to terms with the fact that he is the heir and therefore he did not expect to go into combat.  And now, evidently, he‘s changed his tune somewhat. 

Harry has always said he‘s got to do that or he‘ll leave the military.  And that‘s why he‘s training right now in Canada, in Alberta, for a possible deployment to Afghanistan.  The person who really instilled this interest in the military in the boys is Diana.  I mean, Diana had this tremendous belief in duty.  She believed in exposing the kids to the military.  She was the one who took them for rides on tanks at bases and dressed them up in camouflage outfits and uniforms.  And encouraged this interest in the military. 

And I think she‘d be proud to see them so determined to fight for their country.  I don‘t know what she‘d think about Iraq, but she understand the boys wanting to do their duty. 

ABRAMS:  You know, I‘ve always been fascinated by how much money they have or they get or where they get it from.  So we put this together, a little fact check on Prince William and money.  Where does he get it from?  Set to inherit anywhere from $29 million to $33 million on his birthday tomorrow from Princess Diana‘s estate.  She got the money, in part, from her divorce settlement with Prince Charles.  Prince William doesn‘t make any money for being a royal until he inherits the throne.  His Army salary around $60,000.  According to “Evening Standard,” he receives a, quote, “modest allowance” from his father.  He inherited $4 million from his great-grandmother.

But, Nicholas, where do they—I mean, we keep talking about, well, she got this money from Charles, and they inherited it from the great-grandmother.  I mean, are the royals getting money from taxpayers? 

WAPSHOTT:  They get a certain amount of allowance, all of the active members of the royal family who do public duties.  They get an allowance from the taxpayers, yes, but it doesn‘t make very much difference to them.  They are so fabulously wealthy.  The money that comes from Diana, of course, is the settlement of the divorce.  The Spencer family itself, so Diana‘s parents, had very little money.  They rub along.  They have a lot of money, like a lot of the British aristocracy.  They have big houses and lots of paintings and they have very little cash flow.

ABRAMS:  Here‘s Prince Harry talking about what it‘s like to be as famous as he is. 


LAUER:  You two are going to be famous every day of your lives.


PRINCE HARRY:  There‘s a difference.

PRINCE WILLIAM:  ... we don‘t know about that.  Maybe.

LAUER:  Well, I mean you will always be holding the position you hold.

PRINCE HARRY:  But I think it‘s very different when you‘re famous for sport, famous for this and this.  You know, we were born into it.  So, you know, if you‘re born into it, I think it‘s normal to feel as though you don‘t really want it, if that makes sense. 


ABRAMS:  You know, Christopher, it seems that both of these young men

I have to say, I was very impressed with them in this interview.  They come across as really likable, quote, “normal guys.”  But they both seem to be obsessed with being normal. 

ANDERSEN:  Well, that‘s the thing.  I mean, you know, Elsa Bolker (ph), who was a great friend of Diana‘s, once told me that all Diana was trying to do was to teach her sons how to be real human beings.  And I think, with this interview, you kind of have real proof that she succeeded.  It‘s sort of Diana‘s triumph over the Windsors. 

Don‘t forget, after Diana died, the royal family and the apparatus behind Buckingham Palace cut the boys off from the Spencer family, cut them off from the friends of Diana, and really tried to Windsor-ize them, but obviously it didn‘t work, because the kind of normalcy, as you were saying, that Diana instilled on them has stuck.  And they‘re interested in average people.  You know, Diana connected with average people, but she also was the first royal to connect with her own children, and I think you see that in these two boys. 

They‘re charming.  This was the first time Americans have actually—most Americans have actually heard them speak, and I think they‘re all really favorably impressed. 

ABRAMS:  Real quick, I‘ve got to wrap it up, but, Nicholas, you agree, right?  They came across really well. 

WAPSHOTT:  Yes, I wouldn‘t say that it‘s to do with Diana, for goodness‘s sake.  I mean, I know that Diana is a saintly person that we must all admire, but the fact is that the royal family are really very good at what they do.  They didn‘t cut the children off.  They were devoted to the children, of course. 

ABRAMS:  Well, look, as I‘ve said before, I hadn‘t been particularly interested in it.  I watched these guys, and I thought, wow, this really is kind of interesting, and I found the interview to be fascinating.  Christopher Andersen, thanks a lot, appreciate.  And Nicholas Wapshott—be sure to be on the lookout for Nicholas‘ new book, “Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher:  A Political Marriage,” which comes out in November. 

Still ahead, only five days to go until Paris is unleashed on the world.  And apparently we are learning tonight that she has set a record in the clink.  We‘ll tell you what it is.  And now, in other Paris news, we‘re hearing—wait, yes—she has a standing offer from “Playboy.”

But first...




B. CLINTON:  My money‘s on Smash Mouth.


ABRAMS:  It‘s all about family.  The “Sopranos” spoof has everyone buzzing and the Hillary campaign site booming.  But is it really good for her?  We‘ll talk about it.


ABRAMS:  It‘s been more than a week since the series finale of “The Sopranos.”  The spoofs just keep on coming.  Hillary and Bill jumped on the “Sopranos” bandwagon.  Her campaign released a Web video yesterday to announce which song she‘ll use in her bid for the White House. 


B. CLINTON:  Does anything look good? 

H. CLINTON:  There are some great choices.  I ordered for the table. 

B. CLINTON:  No onion rings? 

H. CLINTON:  I‘m looking out for you.  Where‘s Chelsea? 

B. CLINTON:  Parallel parking.  How‘s the campaign going? 

H. CLINTON:  Well, like you always say, focus on the good times. 

B. CLINTON:  So what‘s the winning song? 

H. CLINTON:  You‘ll see. 

B. CLINTON:  My money‘s on Smash Mouth.  Everybody in America wants to know how it‘s going to end.

H. CLINTON:  Ready?


ABRAMS:  My take, sure, it got them a lot of attention, hits on her campaign Web site.  It is entertaining.  But is this really what she wants to be, Tony Soprano, in effect?  Does that matter?  Is it the image she wants to project?  I don‘t know.  I thought that both she and Bill came across, to use a term from “The Sopranos,” maybe a little stiff. 

Here now, the legendary advertising executive, Jerry Della Femina. 

Jerry, you liked it?


ABRAMS:  You don‘t think they came across a little stiff?  Is this what Hillary wants to be?  I don‘t know.  Does it really matter that she‘s playing Tony Soprano?

DELLA FEMINA:  Well, he has to play Carmella.  Think of that.

ABRAMS:  That‘s right.

DELLA FEMINA:  But the fact is that there‘s—every single candidate at this point is talking to their advertising agency or campaign manager saying, “I want something like that.”  She actually made people smile.  And it worked.  I mean, I‘m not a Hillary fan, but I think it‘s going to go down as one of the great commercials, right up there with some of the best ones over the years.

ABRAMS:  Even though we‘ve been sort of—all these “Sopranos” spoofs, right, have been out for the last, you know, whatever, since the “Sopranos” finale, we‘ve been seeing “Sopranos” spoof after “Sopranos” spoof.  Overkill or you still think it‘s good stuff?

DELLA FEMINA:  No, it still works.  Everybody is still talking about the “Sopranos.”  And what‘s interesting is the things that—underneath this all, I mean, she‘s in charge.  Bill is listening to her. 

ABRAMS:  But everyone knows she‘s in charge.  I mean, is that really the image?  I mean, I thought she‘s been trying to soften her image. 

DELLA FEMINA:  Well, she softens it.  She gives him carrots.  I mean, she‘s looking out for him.  I think it‘s brilliant.  It really is going to do a lot.  And, boy, did they get a lot of hits.  I mean, everybody is listening this.  And more than anything else, like the “Sopranos,” everybody is talking about it today. 

ABRAMS:  Look, Bill Clinton has shown off his acting skills before, in a video he made in his final days of his presidency I thought was even better.





ABRAMS:  See, Jerry, this ad—the purpose was to spoof the fact that Clinton is going to be kicking back and doing random deeds after he serves in office.  I liked this one better. 

DELLA FEMINA:  Well, you know, he‘s a better actor.  I mean, let‘s face it.  We‘ve only had two great actors in the White House, and one was Ronald Reagan, and the other was Bill Clinton. 

ABRAMS:  It‘s true.  I mean, because I think that—you see him, he just comes across as more of a natural than does Hillary, even on the “Sopranos” spoof.

DELLA FEMINA:  Yes, but she‘s—you know what?  She looks as though she‘s in charge.  And at the same time, she‘s soft.  I mean, you know, I wish she would have worn something a little more casual.  You know, but the fact is that she looks—and it‘s a lot of pressure.  Every other candidate would love to get a commercial that really has people talking about.  I mean, she‘s got Michael Bloomberg, you know, about to be breathing down her neck.  I mean, Bloomberg, who‘s now no longer a Republican, I could have told you that.  He was always too rich to be Republican.  But the fact is that she‘s got Bloomberg.  She‘s got a lot of people...


ABRAMS:  She‘s got to be different.  She‘s got to do something to keep the focus on her in the right way.  And if it gets Jerry Della Femina‘s seal of approval, you know, what do I know?  Jerry, good to see you.  Thanks a lot for taking the time.

DELLA FEMINA:  Good to see you.

ABRAMS:  Up next, “Playboy” makes an indecent proposal to Paris Hilton.  I thought she said she had found God? 


ABRAMS:  Time for “Hollyweird,” your one-stop shop for the famously bad.  “Hollyweird‘s” most beloved convict, Paris Hilton, back in the news.  The end is near.  Only five days left until her expected release, and apparently she is a champion.  She has set a record.  Most fan mail for this jail, according to TMZ.  Paris Hilton‘s manager was called by the Lynwood jail today to pick up 20 crates of fan mail. 

Here now, Robin Leach, TV host and celebrity editor for LasVegasMagazine.com, and editor-at-large for “Life and Style” magazine Ashlan Gorse. 

Robin Leach, I didn‘t know she had that many, quote, “fans.”  And I know people were interested in her, but fans?

ROBIN LEACH, LASVEGASMAGAZINE.COM:  Oh, Dan, first of all, you don‘t know that every one of the letters in the 20 crates is a love letter.  But my bet is that there are more love letters in there than hate mail, and I‘m surprised it‘s only 20.  I would have thought it would be 220 by now.

ABRAMS:  They are big crates, apparently, very enormous crates. 

Ashlan, what do you make of this? 

ASHLAN GORSE, “LIFE AND STYLE WEEKLY”:  You know, a lot of people downloaded that video off the Internet, “A Night in Paris,” so I‘m sure she has lots of boys...

ABRAMS:  That‘s true, actually.

GORSE:  ... men that like her and wanted to send their love while she‘s alone in her jail cell.

ABRAMS:  Yes, she probably has more fans from that than from some of her sort of more, quote, “mainstream” films.

GORSE:  Than her record?  I‘m sure, yes.

ABRAMS:  All right.  So what does Paris do when she gets out of prison?  Well, if Hugh Hefner gets his way, Paris will be baring it all on the pages—all right, “We are the Champions,” stop.  Thank you.  She‘ll be baring it on the pages of “Playboy.”  Hef says that he has a standing offer with Paris, but he fears she will not accept, quote, “I think the problem, quite frankly, is mama.  Mama doesn‘t want her to pose.”

My goodness, Robin, why wouldn‘t mama want her to pose for “Playboy”?

LEACH:  Well, first of all, I don‘t know whether it‘s Cathy who‘s the cause of that decision, but, you know, dear Hef issues these $100,000, $1 million invitations to anybody who‘s in the headlines because it immediately gives him more headlines.  But as I said earlier, I think we‘ve seen all of Paris, or I think the world has seen her in the video, I think that we‘ve seen video of her selling hamburgers in a car wash.  What is left for Hef to show the world? 

ABRAMS:  You know, Ashlan, as I ask you this question, I‘m going to put up a fact sheet on what generally people make to pose nude for “Playboy.”  You know, Playmates receive $25,000, Playmate of the Year, $100,000.  They get a new car and et cetera, but I‘m thinking at least, what, a mil if she‘s going to pose for “Playboy,” right? 

GORSE:  Oh, sure, and that‘s the thing.  I mean, you can‘t really put a price on Paris.  But the real problem here is that she wants to clean up her act.  She wants people to see her in a different light.  And without her clothes on, that‘s not really going to help her new, squeaky-clean image.  So I have a feeling she‘s going to say no to this.  They‘d have to offer her a lot of money for her to pose in this.

ABRAMS:  Very quickly, Robin, what does she do to clean up her image? 

LEACH:  I think she is going to embark on this, you know, experiment with living life normally.  There‘s no doubt she wants to clean up her act.  She says it‘s a life-changing experience what she‘s gone through.

ABRAMS:  Five days left. 

LEACH:  You‘ll see her doing charity.

ABRAMS:  The countdown continues.  Ashlan Gorse, Robin Leach, thanks a lot.  Appreciate it. 

As a reminder, if you‘re missing Joe, catch him bright and early in the morning.  “Morning Joe,” 6:00 a.m.  And coming up, Doc Block.



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