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'MSNBC Live' for Sept. 17

Read the transcript to the Monday show

Guest: Mike Gilbert, Stan Goldman, Leslie Crocker Snyder, Martin Hart,

Judge Nancy Oesterle

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  After we sat in the courtroom for every day of the O.J. Simpson criminal and civil cases, I never thought I’d be saying these words, but O.J. Simpson is behind bars tonight, in isolation here in a Las Vegas jail, accused of armed robbery of his own memorabilia from dealers allegedly preparing to sell the items.  We’ll see if that’s true.  Simpson has been charged with six felonies.  If found guilty of all the charges, he could face up to 106 years in prison—as a practical matter, far less than that, but still serious time, I think five to ten years.

And breaking news tonight, a third arrest has been made, Clarence Stewart, one of six men who was allegedly part of O.J.’s posse when he stormed into a Las Vegas hotel room, along with Walter Alexander, who was arrested Saturday.  But unlike O.J., Alexander was released on bail.  Today TMZ released a profanity-filled audio recording apparently of O.J. and the posse during the incident.


O.J. SIMPSON:  Don’t let nobody out of this room.  (DELETED)!  Think you can steal my (DELETED) and sell it?


SIMPSON:  Don’t let nobody out of here.  (DELETED)!  You think you can steal my (DELETED)?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  (DELETED) you!  Mind your own business!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Get over there!

SIMPSON:  You think you can steal my (DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Backs to the wall!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I was trying to get past you!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Walk your (DELETED) over there!

SIMPSON:  Think you can steal my (DELETED)?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You, against the (DELETED) wall!

SIMPSON:  I know (DELETED) Mike took it!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  And I know what Brian’s trying to prove.

SIMPSON:  I always thought you were a straight shooter!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I’m cool.  I am.






ABRAMS:  My take.  I’ve got a theory, just a theory, about everything that has transpired here.  On that tape, Simpson really seems to believe the items belong to him.  He appears to be furious that the dealers may have been preparing to sell all of it.  These are people he seems to know.  In fact, one of the dealers, the supposed victims, Alfred Beardsley, has come to O.J.’s defense, telling the AP that he’s sad that O.J.’s in custody, said he wanted it to just go away.

Look, I spoke to Beardsley yesterday.  He was supposed to be on this program tonight.  He didn’t show.  So why would he come to Simpson’s defense and suddenly get cold feet about speaking out?

Well, what if O.J. had given the items to the dealers to hold or even just told the dealers the items were his but that they should hold onto them, a way to prevent the Goldmans from getting them and selling them?  Remember, all of his assets are supposed to go to paying off the civil judgment, the $33.5 million he owes to the Goldman and Brown families.  What if O.J. wanted to hide them, but then learned the dealers were preparing to sell his items, went nuts, tried to get them?  That would explain why Simpson was so mad but would also the reluctance of the dealers to turn Simpson in because, if true, it would implicate them in an illegal effort to hide Simpson’s assets.  It’s just a theory, but it’s the only explanation that connects the dots for me.

Joining me now is Mike Gilbert, O.J.’s former sports agent, also involved in memorabilia, Leslie Crocker Snyder, a retired New York state judge and former prosecutors, and Martin Hart, criminal defense attorney and a former prosecutor in the Clark County, Nevada, courts, where O.J.  will be appearing on Wednesday, and Stan Goldman, law professor at Loyola University law school in Los Angeles.

All right.  Thanks to all of you for coming on.  Appreciate it.  All right.  Mike Gilbert, let me start with you.  Look, you know O.J. well.  You know this business.  What do you think of my theory here?

MIKE GILBERT, O.J.’S FORMER SPORTS AGENT:  I would disagree with it.  I think O.J. was looking for some items.  The item he was looking for, Dan, was actually the suit, not the items that he said, what, pictures of his mother, I believe.  That’s not exactly memorabilia.

ABRAMS:  So you think that, what, that just—there was some misunderstanding, that he just wanted the suit, and that...

GILBERT:  Oh, no, no.  Oh, he wanted the suit, Dan, there’s no doubt about it.  But oddly enough, the suit was given to me by O.J. the day after the criminal verdict, which was, what, October 3, so October 4 of ‘95.  He’s never asked for it back.  And so he storms a hotel room with a gun, trying to get something that wasn’t in Las Vegas, it was in California.  Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

ABRAMS:  So you have that suit still?


ABRAMS:  And you’re not looking to sell it.

GILBERT:  No.  I’ve had it every day—it’s never left my possession since October 4 of ‘95.

ABRAMS:  All right.  So Mike, what do you make of this, then?  I mean, there are all these items there.  O.J.—you heard him on the tape there.  He’s going crazy, telling, No one is going to leave...

GILBERT:  Right.

ABRAMS:  ... and, You’re trying to sell my stuff, et cetera.  I mean, you know, O.J. is clearly very angry about something.

GILBERT:  You know, I don’t know if he’s angry or he’s just trying to be boastful, show off for the guys that he was with.  You know, I’m not really sure.  From what I was told, he was expecting me to be in the room because I had been his agent until, what, two years ago.  And he says he fired me.  Actually, I quit because I was disgusted with the way he was given a second chance to live his life the right way, and he chose to do coke, do ecstasy and be a thug.  So I backed away and have never spoken to him since.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Stan Goldman, look, it seems to me that if you believe O.J.—it does seem that Simpson goes in there believing that somebody’s got his stuff.  I think that it’s possible he knows that they’ve got this stuff, but it seems that he’s focusing on the selling of it, that’s driving him nuts, which is why I’ve come up with, you know, this theory that maybe he was just trying to hide his assets.

STAN GOLDMAN, LOYOLA UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR:  Well, you know, there were always rumors about that, rumors that O.J., after the Goldman family got its massive judgment against him, tried to hide some of his assets, be that cash or be that memorabilia that’s quite valuable.  Maybe it’s a bit of a stretch to know whether these guys were involved in it or not.  I don’t know.

I agree with you.  Listening to that tape, unless he’s a better actor than I remember him, you know, he really does seem very, very angry and upset, and he may honestly believe this stuff belongs to him.  As I said last night when we were talking about this, that may be a defense to larceny, to theft, but it’s not going to necessarily be a defense to coming in with drawn guns and threatening these guys.  There may be assaults, there may be even potential robberies involved.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Let me do this.  This is Walter Alexander.  We just got this interview in today.  He’s the other guy who was arrested.  This guy has been released on bail.  He talked about the case, talked about O.J. today.  Here’s what he says about O.J.


WALTER ALEXANDER, O.J. SIMPSON CO-DEFENDANT:  Right now, I’m sure O.J.  thinks I’m the worst person in the world, you know, because, you know, he probably wants to blame all of this on me.  But O.J. created this mess.


ABRAMS:  O.J. created this mess, Judge Snyder.  It sounds like everyone’s pointing the finger not just at O.J.’s having been there but O.J. being the ringleader.  And that’s what the authorities said yesterday, as well.

LESLIE CROCKER SNYDER, FORMER NY STATE SUPREME COURT JUDGE:  Well, first of all, I like your theory.  I think it makes a lot of sense.  Since I covered the O.J. trial, as I believe you did—it was a long time ago, but many of us felt that he should have been convicted.  And basically, his life since then has shown that he often does display a criminal intent.  Wouldn’t surprise me at all that he had hidden these assets and—the theory that you advanced.  So it actually makes a great deal of sense that he was the ringleader.  And when you listening to the tape, it certainly sounds like his voice that is doing all the commands and that went in there, whether or not it was his stuff, planning to take it back by violence and contrary to law.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Tom Riccio is one of the guys who was there, and he was on Geraldo’s show.  And here’s what he said about it.


TOM RICCIO, SET UP ALLEGED O.J. “STING”:  O.J. seemed, you know, pretty excited about getting his stuff back.  He wasn’t really secretive about it, no.  He was out in the open about it.  I don’t think he thought that there was anything—neither did I, at that point—wrong with him trying to retrieve items that were stolen years ago.


ABRAMS:  Martin Hart, is that a legal defense in the state of Nevada?

MARTIN HART, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Is it a legal defense, or is it an equitable (ph) defense?  Legal defense has to go with his intent when he entered the building.  Did he take something that was wrongfully?  I understand there was other items, too, cell phones, et cetera.  I don’t know.  I think the jury may find sympathy with it.  I don’t know that you’d get the jury instructions you want or need.

ABRAMS:  Yes.  But the bottom line is, Stan—look, you’ve gone over this with us before—you can go in—if O.J. believes this is his stuff, he can go ask for it back.  But that’s it, right?  I mean, you can’t go on sting operations.  You can’t go and take a posse in with guns blazing and literally take this stuff.  And the fact that O.J. says, Well, you know what?  I didn’t trust the police—again, not a legal defense.

GOLDMAN:  No, it’s not a legal defense.  You’re absolutely right.  I mean, I suppose if you see something that you reasonably or even potentially unreasonably but honestly believe is yours laying on somebody else’s counter, and you say, That’s mine, I’m taking that back, that was stolen from me, and you pick it up and you walk away with it, believe it or not, most times, the law will at least give you an arguable claim that you honestly believe it was yours and you probably shouldn’t be convicted of a larceny.  But nobody lets you go walking into this room, even—you know, even if guns weren’t drawn.

ABRAMS:  Right.

GOLDMAN:  There was such an intimidating sound to the voice on that tape, it sounds like a strong-armed robbery, you know, without guns, even if it’s not an armed robbery.

ABRAMS:  All right.  But here’s what Walter Alexander said about it, and I think it goes exactly to that point.  Remember, one of the co-defendants here.  He’s been arrested.  He’s been charged.  He’s been released on bail.


ALEXANDER:  O.J. is a fun person to be around if you’re partying and having a good time, you know?  But he’s a very selfish person.  He’s a very greedy person.  And this whole thing happened out of greed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Is he capable of violence?  Do you have an opinion?

ALEXANDER:  I’m sure you’ll all hear the tape later on today.  You’ll

you can figure that out for yourself.


ABRAMS:  Judge Snyder, it sounds like he’s making it pretty clear that O.J. was not just capable of violence but that he was engaging in some violence in that hotel room.

SNYDER:  He certainly seems to be implying that.  But you know, as I sit here, having been a judge for so long, I think to myself I pity the judge if it ever goes to trial.  Think of getting a fair jury in this case, Dan.  Between the people who still seem to sympathize with O.J., because he does still have a lot of defenders, and then everybody else, who feels that he got away with murder, it’s going to be a very difficult job for a judge.

ABRAMS:  But they got one in the civil case.

SNYDER:  You’re right.  But doesn’t make it any less easy.

ABRAMS:  That’s true.  All right, Mike Gilbert, final thought on this issue about the memorabilia here.  Do you believe, based on listening to that tape, that O.J. truly believed that what he was doing was legal and proper?

GILBERT:  Absolutely not.  See, Dan, what O.J. is not mentioning is the items that he’s talking about were items that he had removed from his home because the Goldmans were coming in with their judgment, to serve the judgment.  He had his friends and family removing items from his house for 24 hours before they showed up with the moving trucks.  He has lamps currently in his home in Florida that are $65,000 lamps that the Goldmans were supposed to receive, as well as memorabilia.  He’s looking for the items that people took out of there at that time.

ABRAMS:  Well, Mike...

GILBERT:  This memorabilia was given to me at a different time.

ABRAMS:  Well, that would kind of support my theory, Mike, which is that even if he didn’t give these specific dealers these items, he at least maybe has known where they are, and now finds out, Aha, they’re trying to sell my items, I’m not going to let them do that.

GILBERT:  But the problem with that is, Dan, they’re actually not his items.  A lot of those items...

ABRAMS:  I understand.

GILBERT:  ... were given away.  They were sold.  Right.

ABRAMS:  I guess I’m just talking about what’s going on in O.J.’s head throughout this.  But look, whether he...

GILBERT:  Oh, yes, well...

ABRAMS:  Whether he knew where they were, et cetera, I think we’re getting to something here about what might have been going on in O.J.  Simpson’s head and what led him to do this.

All right.  Mike Gilbert, thanks a lot.  Appreciate it.

GILBERT:  Thank you, Dan.

ABRAMS:  Leslie Crocker Snyder, thank you, as well.  And Martin Hart, appreciate it.  Stan is going to stick with us.

Coming up in a moment: A judge involved in the case joins us.  Why is O.J. being held without bail when his co-defendant was released?  What kind of time is he really facing?

And later, reaction from those who have been following O.J.’s criminal saga for years.  The lead investigator from the murder trial, Tom Lange, joins us, author Dominick Dunne and Ron Goldman’s sister, Kim, are all on the program coming up.


ABRAMS:  We’re back live in Las Vegas, O.J. Simpson behind bars tonight, allegations of stolen memorabilia, men with guns barging into a Vegas hotel room, a secret audiotape of the incident starting a new legal battle that could result in serious prison time for O.J.


CAPT. JAMES DILLON, LAS VEGAS POLICE DEPARTMENT:  He will be booked on the following charges—robbery with a deadly weapon, two counts, assault with a deadly weapon, two counts, conspiracy to commit burglary and burglary with a firearm.


ABRAMS:  Here with us now is Judge Nancy Oesterle, whose fellow Clark County judge will preside over this case.  Judge, thanks a lot for taking the time.  We appreciate it.  All right.  So what happens now, as a procedural matter?  O.J. Simpson is now behind bars, without bail.  What is his first opportunity to say, I want out, and for a judge to hear him?

JUDGE NANCY OESTERLE, CLARK COUNTY, NEVADA JUDGE:  OK, I have to clarify one thing, first, Dan.  I am not the presiding judge.  I’ve been asked to answer media questions only.  I was not asked...

ABRAMS:  Right.

OESTERLE:  ... to be the judge handling the O.J. Case.

ABRAMS:  And I didn’t say that.  So there’s no confusion.

OESTERLE:  OK.  I couldn’t hear you there.  OK.  Fine.


OESTERLE:  In terms of seeing a judge, I believe he’ll be going before a Judge Ann Zimmerman on Wednesday morning, that’s this Wednesday, at 8:00 o’clock.  And then at that point...

ABRAMS:  So why—yes.  Sorry.  Go ahead.

OESTERLE:  Well, at that point, it would be a 72-hour review.  And then if the DA’s office is going to file the complaint, they would have the chance to file the complaint at that point.  If they don’t file the complaint...

ABRAMS:  The question has been asked—I’m sorry.

OESTERLE:  OK.  What’s the question?

ABRAMS:  The question has been asked about Walter Alexander, his co-defendant, who’s been released on bail.  And as you know, a lot of people are saying, Well, why would he have been released on bail and Simpson not be released on bail?  Is there any statement or suggestion from the court as to why that could have happened?

OESTERLE:  It’s my understanding that there was a stipulation to release him by the police officers on Sunday.  He’s been released from custody with the return to court date of October 16 before Judge Lipis (ph).  And O.J. was given a no bail hold by the chief judge, Doug Smith.  And then he’s been assigned to Judge Zimmerman’s courtroom.  Which courtroom his case will actually end up with is yet to be decided.  Procedurally, it should go by the lower case number.

ABRAMS:  Right.  OK.  But the question remains, though, why was Alexander released on bail and Simpson was not?

OESTERLE:  The chief judge decided that there must have been a flight risk, which might be one of the things he reviewed.  You would have to ask the chief judge why he felt O.J. should be give an no bail hold.

ABRAMS:  Let me ask you a legal question, Judge, if you don’t mind.  We keep hearing about these six charges, and people add up all the potential penalties that he could face.  They say up to 106 years in prison, which, of course, is nonsense.  As a practical matter, can you give us any legal assessment of, if convicted on all the charges, as a practical matter, how much time is he facing?

OESTERLE:  Well, procedurally, if convicted, the sentencing judge, if it gets that far, could give him 2 to 30 years, that’s mandatory prison time on each of the robbery with use of a deadly weapon charges.  The judge, he or she, could also give 1 to 6 possible years on each of the two assault with the use of a deadly weapon charges.  The judge can give 1 to 6 years on the conspiracy to commit robbery charge, and the judge could give a 2 to 15 year sentence, it’s mandatory prison time, on the burglary with use of a deadly weapon charge.  That, of course, would be decided at a way later time and date, if it gets that far to sentencing.

ABRAMS:  Understood.  Understood.  Judge, thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule.  We do appreciate it.

OESTERLE:  You’re welcome.  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  Coming up: How does Ron Goldman’s sister, Kim, feel about the fact that O.J. Simpson is behind bars tonight?  We’ll ask her.  We’ll talk to author Dominick Dunne, who I sat with every day of the criminal trial.

But first, in “Beat the Press,” a reporter is feeling the squeeze after some incredibly inappropriate behavior is caught on camera.  That’s next in “Beat the Press.”


ABRAMS:  Time for tonight’s “Beat the Press,” our daily look back at the absurd and sometimes amusing perils of live TV.  First up: When reporters are in the field, it can be tough.  Sometimes you’re not exactly sure when you’re on camera.  It’s happened to all of us.  Unfortunately for ABC’s Hilary Brown, this was a doozy.  Watch on the right side of your screen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Thanks, Hilary.  Hilary Brown reporting for a very windy London.


ABRAMS:  OK, that falls into the category of, You know what?  It happens?  On the other hand, while sometimes we get caught doing silly harmless things like Hilary Brown, other times, it’s stupid and offensive.  Here’s ABC affiliate WBKO’s weather director, Chris Allen, with a screen graphic of a woman’s breast and the caption “Breast milk donors.”  Warning.  This may not be safe for your children to watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Honk-honk!  Honk-honk!


ABRAMS:  All right.  Let’s assume he didn’t think the tape was rolling, and someone leaked it, as it appears happened here.  Still, what is he thinking?  He’s still performing for a control room.

Finally, over on Fox, Bill O’Reilly again tries to cover these sleazy stories while making excuses for why he’s covering it, like Britney Spears and her performance at the VMAs.


BILL O’REILLY, “THE O’REILLY FACTOR”:  Now we go back to something less important, Britney Spears.  Now, I get a lot of letters, Why do I cover it?  I cover it because it’s a culture war situation.


ABRAMS:  Right.  Right.  It’s part of the culture war.  And that explains the body language segments, too.  Britney and the culture war.

We want your help beating the press.  If you see anything amusing, absurd or just right or wrong in the press, please go to our Web site,, leave us a tip in the box.  Please include the show and the time you saw the item.

Up next, Ron Goldman’s sister is with us tonight to tell us how she feels now that O.J. Simpson is finally behind bars tonight.  I’ll ask her what she thinks of my theory that maybe O.J. was trying to store the memorabilia to keep it away from the Goldmans, and that he then believed maybe the dealers double-crossed him by trying to sell it.

And later...


SIMPSON: If I could do two years and make everybody know the truth and feel the truth about me, in a heartbeat.


ABRAMS:  O.J. in his own words.  Just last month, Simpson said he’d consider serving jail time to clear his name.  That rare interview coming up.




O.J. SIMPSON, ACCUSED OF ARMED ROBBERY:  It’s a wedding.  I’m not...


SIMPSON:  You have to ask them.  I ain’t dealing with that.  All right.  Enjoy.  God bless.  God bless.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Can you tell us a little bit about what you said?

SIMPSON:  Well, you saw it on TV.  I ain’t got nothing to say.  I didn’t do nothing wrong.  Bye, God bless.  Hey, guys.  Take care.  Happy weekend. 


ABRAMS:  Oh, God.  He came to Las Vegas to go to a friend’s wedding.  He ended up in this Las Vegas jail, where we’re just getting pictures of his seven-by-fourteen cell, consisting of a bunk, toilet, small desk.  According to the police, he made a request for reading glasses.  Five attorneys have visited him, two attorneys from the public defenders’ office, three private attorneys. 

Simpson was issued the standard inmate clothing and he had a short visit from the religious ministers who gave him a Bible and a copy of “The Purpose-Driven Life.”  His typical meal will consist of breakfast, fresh fruit, a couple of toasted oats, sausage, hash, bread, margarine, 2 percent milk and coffee.  Lunch, spaghetti with sauce, a meat patty, green beans, two slices of white bread, one cookie and a fruit drink.  Dinner, enchilada casserole, Spanish rice, garden salad with dressing, two slices of bread, margarine, marble cake, and a fruit drink.

His book about the murders, “If I Did It,” was released last week by the family of Ron Goldman.  They’re calling it “Confessions of the Killer.”  And they’re still waiting for all of the $33 million from that wrongful civil death case. 

Joining us now from California, Ron Goldman’s sister, Kim Goldman, Dominick Dunne, author and “Vanity Fair” journalist who covered the criminal and civil trials of O.J. Simpson, with me throughout the process, and Tom Lange, former LAPD lead investigator in the case. 

Thanks to all of you for coming on the program.  Appreciate it.

All right, Kim, bottom line, I know you’ve been asked this question already, but I’ve got to ask you now.  How does it feel to know that O.J.  Simpson is behind bars tonight? 

KIM GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON K. GOLDMAN:  It feels great.  I was excited.  I squealed a little bit with laughter.  My father was very emotional.  But as I said, the nervousness is now setting in, just because of the anxiety of what comes up next, and all the twists and turns, and God knows what’s going to happen. 

ABRAMS:  Kim, as I read there the list of—well, the life that O.J.  Simpson is leading now, was there a sense for you of a little bit of vindication, just a little bit that O.J. Simpson is now sort of living the prison life that he should been living a long time ago? 

K. GOLDMAN:  Yes, and I hope that continues.  I mean, if, in fact, he stays behind bars, I hope that he’s treated like other criminals accused of crimes, and hopefully he’s found guilty of that.  I hope that he’s not afforded any extra luxuries.  I know that he was treated like a king during the criminal case, and I hope that, if he stays behind bars, that he meshes with the rest of the people in there. 

ABRAMS:  Dominick Dunne, look, you and I got to get to know O.J.  Simpson a little bit, particularly during the civil trial when he would talk to us in the hallways during breaks in the case, et cetera.  I think the hardest thing for Simpson is going to be the isolation, the fact that he can’t be jabbering and talking to people, and having people listen and performing, and not having a sort of posse of fans listening to him. 

DOMINICK DUNNE, “VANITY FAIR”:  Well, absolutely.  I mean, I’m one of

the people that absolutely believes he got away with two murders.  And I am

this is terrible to say, but I just can’t wait to see him in an orange jumpsuit.  And I hope—I mean, I am delighted that he is in jail.  I loved hearing his menu; that’s what he deserves. 

I have no patience with O.J. Simpson, and I believe in ultimate justice, and this is the perfect example of ultimate justice.  He got away with two murders, but he got caught in this armed robbery.  And I am so happy for the Goldman family.  I love the Goldman family.  And I loved seeing Kim on television just now.  And, you know, I’m behind the Goldmans entirely. 

ABRAMS:  I do, too.  I like seeing them on television, too.  I really do.  And I think that the problem for Simpson is going to be, Dominick, his arrogance.  He continues to sort of make these ridiculous comments about, you know, “I thought what happens in Vegas is supposed to stay in Vegas.”  And he’s making light of the situation.  You saw the sound bite.  We started with where O.J. is going to the wedding laughing about it, “Oh, hey, everything is good.”  I think O.J. Simpson thinks he plays by a different set of rules. 

DUNNE:  He absolutely does, and it’s caught up with him.  And, finally, it’s caught up with him.  And he can have his smart remarks all he wants.  He is one of America’s most hated human beings, and I think most of America is clapping. 

ABRAMS:  All right, Tom Lange is with us, as well, the former lead investigator.  Tom, I want to run by you my theory on this.  And, again, it’s just a theory, that Simpson either gives the memorabilia or knows these guys have the memorabilia, and he’s simply trying to keep it away from the Goldman family.  He wants to make sure it’s not attached.  He wants to make sure that he doesn’t lose it entirely.  And then he finds out, lo and behold, that these guys, these dealers, are going to go sell his items, and he goes crazy, and he goes into the hotel room with the guns, et cetera, again, just a theory, but what do you make of it? 


plausible, Dan.  Of course, we really don’t know.  And hopefully the police

are well into this thing.  What they’re going to need to do is grab all of

these victims/witnesses/suspects and interview all of them very thoroughly

individually.  They’re going to have to background them individually, then

re-interview them to see if they can corroborate anything, to see if they

can come up with something.  All of them have a history with O.J., and so they’re going to have their hands full trying to put this thing together. 

The other interesting thing is this audiotape.  Who did it?  Where did it come from?  What’s all that about?  They’ve got a lot of work to do, but they’re going to have to corroborate these people and they’re going to have to—in order to roll over on Simpson, and it sounds like everybody’s trying to, you know, play let’s make a deal. 

ABRAMS:  You know, Kim, you’re not a police officer, but you do know what O.J. Simpson has been up to.  Look, this guy, Alfred Beardsley, was supposed to be on the program tonight.  He backed out.  And I think one of the reasons that he backed out was because, you know, he may have been afraid that I was going to ask him some tough questions which might suggest that he was kind of—there may have been an allegation that he was in on this, I mean, in the sense that he may have known where the items came from, he may have known that the goal is to keep them away from the Goldman family, again, just a theory here, but I know that you know that O.J. has been doing everything he can to hide assets. 

K. GOLDMAN:  Yes, I mean, you make a very good point, Dan.  For 11 years, he’s been insulated by his team of attorneys who have worked very hard to make sure that he’s not honoring the judgment.  This stuff disappeared years ago when we tried to go in and seize assets from his home.  He was tipped off overnight.  I think now it’s suddenly starting to show itself.

The fact that he runs with these kinds of people, not alarming to me, not shocking.  I think there’s going to be a lot of people turning on each other here, and I just—I hope, like Dominick said, you know, I see him in an orange jumpsuit, and I hope that my father and I get to watch him sit behind bars and rot. 

ABRAMS:  You know, Tom Lange, I can’t think of another explanation for why Beardsley would be publicly sort of defending O.J., saying he just wants to put this all behind him, you know, oh, he wished this would all go away.  I mean, he was a victim of an armed robbery.  I would think he would say, “Hey, you know, this is a big deal,” as opposed to saying he just wants it to go away. 

LANGE:  Well, yes, you know, you heard this sting business and everything else.  This is a guy that pushes the envelope and pushes the envelope.  About every six months we’d see him in another little pickle.  I think he’s bitten off a little more than he can handle at this point.  It’s going to be interesting to see if all these folks roll over on him. 

ABRAMS:  All right, we’ve got to say goodbye to Kim Goldman, unfortunately.  Kim, you look great.  Good to see you.  Thanks for coming on the program.  Appreciate it. 

K. GOLDMAN:  Thanks, Dan.

ABRAMS:  Dominick and Tom are going to stay with us.  Up next, O.J.  Simpson in his own words.  We’re going to show you an interview from just last month where he says he’d consider serving time if it means clearing his name. 

And, later, Senator Larry Craig is getting help from a former opponent, the ACLU.  So does that make him tonight’s big winner or loser?  That’s coming up.


ABRAMS:  O.J. Simpson was all smiles during a friend’s wedding ceremony in Las Vegas this weekend, not a hint of nerves, above all blame, and playing the part of the innocent victim.  Just last month, O.J. sat down with a Dallas radio host and said this. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Here’s what it comes down to, to me, is I, no matter what somebody thinks of that case, either you have gotten up every day for 12 years, and claimed your innocence, and that’s not true, and that’s screwed up, or you’ve gotten up every day for 12 years and been indirectly or directly accused of a crime you didn’t commit for 12 years.  Either way, that’s a very weird existence, and I was challenging myself to think of anybody else, modern day, who’s in that position.  Have you ever met anybody in your position? 

O.J. SIMPSON, ACCUSED OF ARMED ROBBERY:  Well, I can’t say my exact position.  I mean, I’ve obviously—choose to handle it.  My mother, as I told you before, noticed how angry I was when my trial was over, and so did Rosey Grier, and they worked on me to let that anger go so that I would be able to let my kids lead a non-anger-filled life, because they said, “Your kids are going to emulate you, and they’re going to react to people and what people do.  They’ll react the way you do.”  So you got to let it go.  You can’t curse them kids with that. 

So once I let that anger go, I was able to really claim my life back, claim who I was, so when I wake up in the morning, my only concern has been one with my Lord, being right, to try to be the best person I can be.  I’ve always treated everybody the way I want to be treated.  I don’t really see the negative. 

You know, people don’t—my existence, I rarely get anybody saying negative things about me, even though I know they’re out there outside of the media, but I don’t choose to let that venom control who I am.  My mother used to say, “Don’t let their hatred or their venom get you further away from God.”  So I choose to ignore it and live my life as it is, and, you know, my life isn’t filled with thinking about the trial or that anymore.  I had to let it go; I had to let it go. 


ABRAMS:  The picture of total calm and serenity, yes, maybe not the case a few nights ago in that Las Vegas hotel room.  O.J. says he was just going to get what was his. 



O.J. SIMPSON, ACCUSED OF ARMED ROBBERY:  Don’t let nobody out this room, (bleep)!  Think you can steal my (bleep) and sell it?


SIMPSON:  Don’t let nobody out of here.  (bleep), you think you can steal my (bleep)?  Mind your own business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Backs to the wall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I was trying to get past you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Walk your (bleep) over there.

SIMPSON:  Think you can steal my (bleep)?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You, against the (bleep) wall.

SIMPSON:  I know (bleep) Mike took.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I know what Brian’s trying to prove.

SIMPSON:  I always thought you were a straight shooter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I’m cool.  I am.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Get you (bleep) up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Stand the (bleep) up.


ABRAMS:  Yes, serenity.  Serenity.  Let’s bring back Tom Lange, former lead investigator on the O.J. Simpson case.  Tom, you were the one who actually had to talk O.J. out of potentially killing himself in that Bronco chase, right? 

LANGE:  Right.  Yes, let me say, first, in that Dallas interview, I mean, what blather.  I mean, if that doesn’t demonstrate just where this guy is coming from, nothing will.  This is a total sociopath who couldn’t care about anybody but himself to begin with. 

ABRAMS:  And, Tom, when you were talking to him on the phone during the Bronco chase, he was a very different man. 

LANGE:  Well, he was.  He sounded like he was very tired.  We know he was on something.  He was, “Oh, woe is me, I’m going to end it all.”  But, you know, the bottom line, Dan, a person in love with himself is not going to take their own life. 

But I had to play that game.  If you’ve got a man with a gun, you have to assume it’s real.  You have to assume it’s loaded.  That’s the last thing we’d want in the world.  It’s not just his life, it’s Cowlings life.  You’ve got the police right on his tail.  And you have to be concerned about the gun.  And so all of sudden, it becomes one of these protect-and-serve situations and not the murder investigation. 

ABRAMS:  Here’s a little bit more of that radio interview from last month. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  If I could give you a hypothetical scenario to rewind time—and here’s the deal, you do two years, not for any kind of guilt, just some time of penance, and then what I’m going to be able to offer you at the end of that two years is none of this stigma, it all goes away.  I mean, complete clean slate in everyone’s mind.  Would it be worth giving up just a small portion of freedom so that you’re not still dealing with some of the stuff today?

SIMPSON:  That’s a good hypothetical.  I mean, my first reaction when you start saying it was, yes, but then my reaction is I cannot spend another two years away from my family and kids.  You know, I wouldn’t do it.  But I’m not having a tough time.  See, that’s the misconception is I saw where this TMZ, which is the “National Enquirer” really, they had a picture, a film of me walking out of a club, and it was a big crowd out there.  And they were there with the cameras and some security guys were helping me get through the crowd, right?  Of course, they reported it that I was so drunk that I needed help and that evidently the pressures of the Goldmans is getting to O.J., is finally beginning to show. 

Hey, I don’t feel any pressures from them.  I mean, I feel they’re doing what they feel they got to do, and I defend myself.  And they have a lot of frivolous things that they do now in court with me.  The least little thing is a court action, but now I have a group of lawyers who support me and do work for me, some of it pro bono.  And I’m able to defend it, but I defend their right to do what they’re doing, and I just move on with my life.  I can’t think of it one way or the other, negatively or not. 

So, yes, if I can do two years and make everybody know the truth and feel the truth about me, in a heartbeat.  You know, if it took that to get them to accept my innocence, yes.  If it took that for them just not to talk about me, I could care less.  I don’t hear the negative talk anyway. 


ABRAMS:  I’d like to know who those lawyers are who are taking O.J.’s case for free, as he says, pro bono.  Real quick, Tom Lange, this is just typical O.J., right? 

LANGE:  Yes, it’s the same old nonsense.  You know, if you do those two years, it looks like he may have his opportunity starting like yesterday, so hopefully he will have time to reflect, but, again, none of this means anything to a true sociopath, and that’s what this guy is. 

ABRAMS:  Tom Lange, as always, thanks a lot for taking the time. 

Appreciate it.  Good to see you. 

LANGE:  Same here. 

ABRAMS:  Up next, will tonight’s big winner of the day be a racecar driver who survived a fiery crash, the Emmys, which kept things clean but burned some of the winners in the process, or the ACLU, which is trying to stop Senator Larry Craig from crashing and burning?  More on that unlikely alliance, next in the day’s “Winners and Losers.”


ABRAMS:  Time for tonight’s “Winners and Losers” for this 17th day of September 2007. 


ABRAMS (voice-over):  Our first loser, FOX Network’s Emmy coverage last night, in particular, the way censors cut away from foul-mouthed celebs. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Don’t do it, Cartman. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I’m warning you. 

ABRAMS:  No beeps, buzzes or dings. 

RAY ROMANO, ACTOR:  I’ve been good.  I’ve been good since my show has been off.  I think my wife wants me to go back on TV.  Yes, I think she wants me out of the house. 

ABRAMS:  Just dead air, and an unexpected view of the ceiling. 

Our first winner, Carlos Camejo, who got an unexpected view of a ceiling, a morgue ceiling.  The Venezuelan man woke up on the autopsy table -- yes, autopsy—as doctors were cutting into his face.  He was incorrectly declared dead after a car accident.  He’s now recovering. 

The second loser, the parents of an 11-year-old matador who let him get into the ring with a 1,500-pound bull for his big debut in Mexico City.  Eight pounds of kid was no match for the hard charging bull.  Luckily, both the boy and bull walked away. 

The second winner, driver Phil Lamattina who walked away from a 310-mile-per-hour crash.  He lost control of his car at an Australian drag race, hit the barriers, spun out of control, and burst into flames. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He’s airborne!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yep, I’m flying through the air.  This is not good. 

ABRAMS:  But the big loser the day, the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport, formerly known as the hub of Northwest Airlines, has now become a hub for fans of Senator Larry Craig, tourists looking for that restroom, specifically the second stall from the right, if you’re visiting.  Workers at kiosks and stores near the infamous location say a wide array of tourists are just stopping by.  No word on the airport’s stance. 

The big winner of the day?  Senator Larry Craig, thanks to the stance of the ACLU, adding to their wide array of causes, they filed a friend of the court brief supporting the senator, asking the judge to throw out his guilty plea.  Never mind that Senator Craig’s stance on the ACLU is pretty narrow.  He voted against them 76 percent of the time. 


ABRAMS:  Let’s bring back in law professor Stan Goldman.  All right, Stan, let me read you what the ACLU is saying.  It’s a weird alliance here, because Craig has gone after the ACLU, disagreed with them on a lot of issues.  Suddenly they’re defending him.  But, you know, look, they defended Rush Limbaugh, they defend a bunch of people that they don’t necessarily agree with.  The executor director of the ACLU says, “It’s a crime to have sex in public.  It’s not a crime to propose or solicit sex in public, whether it’s in a bar or in a bathroom.”  Why does the ACLU get to decide what’s a crime and what’s not a crime?

STAN GOLDMAN, LOYOLA LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR:  Well, that’s a good question.  And the trouble is, this is a bad case to do it in, because he’s already pled guilty in.  By pleading guilty, you give up the right to make these kinds of arguments typically. 

But on the other hand—and, by the way, the ACLU also defended Nazis marching in Skokie, even though, obviously, the Nazis would have just as soon put all the ACLU up against the wall and shot them.  So they like defending people who hate them.  I think they feel it gives them credibly.  But here it’s not a terrible argument. 

What they’re saying is, look, freedom of speech should allow you to do certain things, say certain things, and this law is so broad it includes within it things that ought to be protected speech.  I mean, come on now.  If this weren’t a homosexual liaison, it probably would never have brought to the attention of the police.

ABRAMS:  But that’s not what they’re saying.  That’s not what they’re saying.  What they’re saying is, “We believe the sting operation used to apprehend Mr. Craig was unconstitutional.  The statute the government is relying upon makes it a crime to use certain offensive words.”  Well, it’s not just words.  It’s also the actions.  It’s also the signals.  I mean, it does seem that they’re sort of glossing over what happened here. 

S. GOLDMAN:  Dan, I’ve known you for years and years, and I know in those years you have been the object of uninvited, unwarranted, and rejected attentions of women.  Now, how many of those women do you think really deserved or would have been locked up for giving you signals in a bar that they were interested, even though you were not?  The reality is, the ACLU is saying that normally this stuff would not be criminal, it shouldn’t be criminal, and Craig is sort of stuck in the middle here. 

ABRAMS:  But shouldn’t be criminal, Stan, is not the ACLU’s business.  They can talk about the Constitution, but it’s not their place to decide what should and shouldn’t be criminal. 

S. GOLDMAN:  Well, it is, if somebody’s being punished for their freedom of speech.  And what they’re claiming, whether you may agree with it or not, is that this sort of talk, just like FOX clipping out some things on the Emmys, maybe ought to be part of freedom of speech.  People ought to be allowed to say certain things, maybe not do certain things, but say certain things.  And if Craig is being punished for what he has said and not what he’s done, then maybe it’s a constitutional argument. 

ABRAMS:  That’s not what he’s being—all right, anyway, Stan Goldman, thanks a lot.  Appreciate it.  Got to go.  Live from Vegas, see you tomorrow. 



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