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'Verdict with Dan Abrams' for Wednesday, August 20

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Guests: Contessa Brewer, Mark Williams, Nicole DeBorde, Clint Van Zandt, Pat Buchanan,

Chrystia Freeland, Roy Sekoff, A.B. Stoddard, Bill Press>

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  Tonight on VERDICT: Obama slipping in a new NBC News

Poll out just hours ago, now leading John McCain by just three points.


        But could a bold, unexpected V.P. pick give him a big boost?  No,

not Evan Bayh, Tim Kaine or even Joe Biden.


        What about Hillary Clinton?  Yes, the Hillary Clinton who does

better against McCain in that new NBC Poll than Obama.


        Pat Buchanan; the "Financial Times`" Chrystia Freeland; and the

"Huffington Post`s" Roy Sekoff are us with.


        And speaking of women voters, the Republicans are out with their

list of convention speakers headlined by pro-choice Rudy Giuliani and by

McCain`s new best friend.




        SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN, (I/D) CONNECTICUT:  I`m supporting John McCain.


        (END VIDEO CLIP)


        ABRAMS:  Yes, the same Joe Lieberman who said this at the 2000 DNC.




        LIEBERMAN:  I`m glad that the GOP has changed their rhetoric, but,

you know what -- I wish they`d also change their policies.


        (END VIDEO CLIP)


        ABRAMS:  Could a registered Democrat actually be McCain`s V.P.



        Plus, the "National Enquirer" playing rough with John Edwards, out

with new alleged details about his affair, and threatening more unless he

admits he fathered Rielle Hunter`s baby.




        JOHN EDWARDS, FORMER SENATOR:  I was lost.  And I am responsible.


        (END VIDEO CLIP)


        ABRAMS:  As Gary Hart learns, fighting in D.C. is one thing,

fighting the "Enquirer" is something very different.


        And, he`s America`s golden boy, but not everyone has a crush on

Michael Phelps.




        AMANDA BEARD, OLYMPIC GOLD WINNER:  I am not dating Michael Phelps. 

No, I have really good taste.


        (END VIDEO CLIP)


        ABRAMS:  Gold medal winner and "Playboy" pinup, Amanda Beard is in

tonight`s Olympics` Winners and Losers.


        Plus, Paris Hilton is looking for a new bestfriend and she wants

help finding one.


        And, John Mayer not only broke up with Jennifer Aniston and then

dissed her publicly, but he reportedly did it via text message.  It may be

even worse than we thought?


        VERDICT starts now.


        Hi, everyone.  Welcome to the show.


        With all eyes on Barack Obama and who he`ll pick as his running

mate, with all the talk of Joe Biden, Tim Kaine, Evan Bayh, there`s one big

name still missing from the conversation -- Hillary Clinton.  Yes, Hillary



        A brand new NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" Poll out tonight shows

Obama`s lead slipping to three points over McCain.  He`s now up 45 to 42. 

Obama was leading by six in July.  But look at a hypothetical match up

between Hillary Clinton and McCain.  She`s up by six.


        Tomorrow, Clinton is set to campaign for Obama across Florida,

we`re getting reports today that her own brother, along with some

Pennsylvania Democrats have already met with the McCain campaign.  Wouldn`t

Obama picking Hillary help bring unhappy Clintonites aboard?  And if so,

shouldn`t he pick her as his running mate?


        Joining me now Pat Buchanan, MSNBC analyst and a former

presidential candidate; Chrystia Freeland, U.S. managing editor for the

"Financial Times"; and Roy Sekoff, the founding editor of the "Huffington



        All right, Pat, look, it is almost heresy to discuss this among

many Obama supporters, but, is it to the point now, do you think where

Obama has to reevaluate, even if he wasn`t seriously thinking about her and

say, "You know what, maybe I`ve got it suck it up and think about Hillary

Clinton really seriously"?


        PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  I think he really does. 

The luster is clearly off Obama now.  He is slipping in every poll.  Some

polls show him behind.  The Republicans are on the offensive in being



        And I think he`s got to take a look at Hillary because she`s the

only one that gives real excitement and drama and really brings something

to a ticket -- 18 million voters, the women would be enthusiastic, it would

help in Arkansas, it would help in Michigan, it would help in Pennsylvania. 

I don`t think he ought to rule it out, but my guess is, he`s already



        ABRAMS:  Chrystia?


        CHRYSTIA FREELAND, FINANCIAL TIMES:  Yes, actually, I agree with

Pat.  I think that choosing Hillary Clinton is very painful for Obama, but

it could be the pragmatic choice.  And one thing that people say about

Barack Obama is, he`s not an emotional decision-maker and he is able to

take decisions which are personally painful for him, but are politically

the right ones.


        I would also add to what Pat said that what Hillary brings, oddly

enough, is somewhat she`s machismo to the ticket.  And what Obama I think

needs right now is someone who is willing to go out there and fight McCain. 

And Hillary is the person who could do that.


        ABRAMS:  Machismo.


        FREELAND:  Yes.


        ABRAMS:  All right.  Roy, let me read you this.  It`s part of the

same poll, all right?  Of the Clinton voters, right, how many of them

support Obama?  Fifty-two percent support Obama, 21 percent support McCain,

27 percent undecided or someone else.  Look, that`s almost half unwilling

to say at this point that they would support Barack Obama.


        ROY SEKOFF, HUFFINGTON POST:  You know, I mean, Dan, you know, I

spent a lot of time on this show making the case why Hillary Clinton is the

wrong choice.


        ABRAMS:  Yes.


        SEKOFF:  But as I see the list of finalists, I kind of feel like

Churchill did about democracy, you know, she`s the worst choice except for

all the other ones.  I mean, Evan Bayh.  I mean, Hillary is bad on Iraq but

Evan Bayh was the co-sponsor of the amendment to, you know, go to war.  I

mean, he was the head of the committee for liberation (ph) of Iraq.


        ABRAMS:  So, Roy, am I hearing Roy Sekoff correctly?  That you are

now entertaining the idea what would have been something unthinkable to Roy

Sekoff only -


        SEKOFF:  Dan, I am entertaining it now.  I know they`re going to,

you know, give it out by text message and everybody sleeping with their

Blackberries, so I can imagine just getting, you know, the message, "Yo,

it`s HRC, LOL," and then, you know, and you got to say, WTF.


        BUCHANAN:  But Dan, look, suppose I said it`s Hillary.  That would

send an explosion through the country, through the convention.  The

excitement would be enormous.  All these women and everybody that`s

grumbling and unhappy and Barack`s losing it, we should have nominated her. 

I think it would bring the Democratic Party together and I think Joe

Biden`s a nice guy, but that`s a single.  If you want to go for the fence,

Hillary`s the one.


        ABRAMS:  But, Chrystia, here`s -- let me ask you, I direct this to

you, Roy.  There are going to be a lot of Obama supporters who would be

very upset about that decision.  I mean, any time I suggest that Hillary

Clinton should be the V.P. pick, I get all these e-mails from Obama

supporters saying, "No way, no how, she`s antithetical to everything that

we are standing for."


        Is there going to be any significant percentage of Obama supporters

who won`t vote if it`s Hillary?  I don`t believe it.


        FREELAND:  No.


        SEKOFF:  No, there`s absolutely none.  But I think what Pat says is

right, I think, it will energize the base, but I think it`s going to

energize the Republican base.  I think they`re the ones who salivate of the

mere mention of the Clinton name.


        ABRAMS:  Roy, really?  I don`t buy it.


        BUCHANAN:  I don`t think they do anymore.  Really, there was a time

when Hillary Clinton`s name was the best fundraising name the Republican

Party had, but she ran a very good race and she did a great job and you had

people like Rush and Hannity and others, Buchanan saying she`s doing a

great job.  I don`t think she`s now toxic the way she was.


        SEKOFF:  But Rush is doing that -




        FREELAND:  Yes, I also think, Dan, that there is this personal

friendship between Senator McCain and Senator Clinton.  And, you know, that

might mean that there`s a little bit of restraint, at least, on the

personal attacks if she were on the ticket.  I think the big problem with

choosing Hillary wouldn`t be the campaign.  I think that she would be the

best person for Barack Obama, help him the most in winning the election. 

The big question would be -- what it would be like if you won having

Hillary and Bill Clinton in the White House.




        BUCHANAN:  You have to win first.


        ABRAMS:  But wait, but let me ask Pat this question.  Pat, how much

time did Dan Quayle spent advising the George Bush, Sr.?  I mean, I can`t

imagine that George Bush, Sr., was taking a lot of guidance from Dan Quayle

when he was his vice president.


        BUCHANAN:  No, he wasn`t.  But there`s no doubt about it, Cheney

has been giving a lot of advice and Bush has been taking it.


        ABRAMS:  Yes.


        BUCHANAN:  There had been powerful vice presidents and when Jack

Kennedy picked LBJ, Kennedyites, many of them said, "That guy called your

father, an appeaser of Adolf Hitler," they despised the guy, the liberals

didn`t want him to go that direction, Kennedy said, "I`ve got to get in the

White House, I`ve got to win this."


        Ronald Reagan went over and picked George H.W. Bush, you ought to

hear he pull (INAUDIBLE) about it that night.  Many Reaganites were

outraged.  But we wanted to get Reagan in.  If he wins, you can deal with

the problem and you can even deal with Bill.


        ABRAMS:  I worry, you know, I think sometimes, well here`s -- let

me read this first.  Ralph Nader on why Obama should pick Clinton.  "He

just has to swallow hard and do what JFK did."


        Now, I don`t think that Ralph Nader is going to be a guy that a lot

of Democrats are really happy to take guidance from at this point.  But, I

do think there is a sense, Chrystia, among some Obama supporters, or at

least that there`s a community of Obama supporters, who simply think it`s

wrong.  And as a result, they don`t want to hear about this winning

business.  They want to say this is a principled campaign and Hillary

Clinton is not part of that principle.


        FREELAND:  Of course, you`re right, Dan, but if Barack Obama were

ahead in the polls by 10 percent -


        ABRAMS:  I agree.


        FREELAND:  Then that point of view would prevail.


        ABRAMS:  Yes.


        FREELAND:  I think at this stage, you know, the weaker Obama looks

in the polls, the more powerful the argument is that winning is more

important than being absolutely pure.  And I think also choosing Hillary

Clinton, in a way, would be a demonstration of Barack Obama`s leadership

quality, sort of ruthlessness that you probably need in a president.


        ABRAMS:  Yes.


        BUCHANAN:  Because I think that`s -- it would be a sign of

strength.  He would say, "Look, I can deal with Hillary, I can deal with

Bill and I can deal with Putin."


        ABRAMS:  All right.  Let me ask you about -


        FREELAND:  I like that comparison of Hillary Clinton -






        ABRAMS:  Let me ask you a real question -- Lieberman, is this for

real, Pat, that Lieberman might be McCain`s V.P.?


        BUCHANAN:  No, I think it`s a stalking horse.  I think what he`s

saying is, he knows the Republicans would be outraged.  I think it would

cause a riot right on the floor.  Joe must go, move it on the floor the



        Ten years ago, I would have led it myself, Dan, but I tell you what

I think it is -- I think it`s a stalking horse because I think he wants

Ridge.  And Ridge is pro-life and McCain can say, "Well, look, I`m not

going to take Lieberman, he is a liberal, you`re right," however, I mean,

every other way Ridge is a solid Republican.  I think it`s more likely he`s

going to pick Ridge now because he`s making this play.


        SEKOFF:  It`s like when you bring home, you know, the biker

boyfriend, Dan, and then you bring home the hippy boyfriend, so when you

bring home the unemployed guy that you really like the parents are OK with





        BUCHANAN:  Exactly.


        FREELAND:  I`ll tell you, the unconventional choice Wall Street is

still rooting for and that`s Mike Bloomberg.


        ABRAMS:  Yes.  OK, you know -


        FREELAND:  Rumors were right this week.


        BUCHANAN:  Another problem on the floor, Chrystia, another problem

on the floor of the convention.


        ABRAMS:  Here`s what Rush Limbaugh had to say about Lieberman.




        RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  McCain`s already got whatever

moderates he`s going to get by being who he is.  We don`t need somebody in

the second spot of the ticket to be an echo of McCain in that way.  The

choice alone would cause so many of us to question everything else McCain

has said about appointing the right kind of judges.  It goes right to who

McCain is.  It`s just that the plus doing so would destroy the Republican



        (END VIDEO CLIP)


        ABRAMS:  Pat, let me ask you a separate question.


        BUCHANAN:  Sure.


        ABRAMS:  How much do the movers and shakers on the right listen to

Rush, like take advice from Rush?


        BUCHANAN:  I think it`s something else.  I think they fundamentally

agree with Rush.  Look, if he picks Joe Lieberman, Joe Lieberman is a far,

almost on the far left of his party.


        ABRAMS:  Come on.


        BUCHANAN:  His voting record, except for the war, except for the

war, that he`s pro-choice, pro-partial birth abortion, gun control, you

name it.  To pick him like that, the Republican Party will say -- we`ve got

no soul.  We really don`t believe anything.  We want to win so desperately,

we`re going to turn the nomination of the Republican Party, the number two

slot, potential president over to an individual we denounced and rejected

in 2000 when he was running as a Democrat.  It would say the Republican

Party has no soul.


        ABRAMS:  Roy?


        SEKOFF:  But, Pat, he shows that he`s very good at whispering in

the ear of the candidate, the right answer when he screws about Iraq.




        ABRAMS: Pat Buchanan, Chrystia Freeland, and Roy Sekoff, thanks a



        Coming up: The "National Enquirer" is threatening to release more

details about John Edwards, unless he admits he fathered Rielle Hunter`s



        And bail has just been posted for Casey Anthony.  The mother who

waited a month to report her daughter, Caylee, missing.


        Plus, Golden boy Michael Phelps may be the toast of America but

Olympic gold medalist and "Playboy" pinup, Amanda Beard, she`s not having



        We`re back in 60 seconds.




        ABRAMS:  Every night we devote this part of the show to what`s

wrong with Washington.  Tonight, we`re focusing on what was right as we

mourn the loss of one of the nation`s most dynamic lawmakers, Ohio

Congressman Stephanie Tubbs Jones passed away suddenly earlier today, after

suffering a brain aneurysm while driving in her hometown of Cleveland.


        Tubbs Jones, a Democrat, was the first black woman to represent her

state in Congress; the five-term congresswoman was a fiery opponent of the

war in Iraq.  She voted against authorizing the use of force.  You may

remember her as one of Hillary Clinton`s most effective supporters and she

was a frequent and welcome guest here at MSNBC, including here on this

program.  Stephanie Tubbs Jones was 58.


        Be right back.




        ABRAMS:  The battle between John Edwards and the "National

Enquirer" continues tonight.  The editor of "Enquirer" basically

threatening Edwards to admit he is the father of Rielle Hunter`s baby

saying, quote, "We have exclusive photographic evidence, pictures, videos,

hard proof to further incriminate Edwards.  He doesn`t at this point know

what we have, which is why I`m asking that we don`t reveal too much yet,

and which we will use unless and until he acknowledges paternity."


        Among the new details, the "Enquirer" now is claiming that Edwards

promised her they`d be together after his cancer-stricken wife died.  That

Rielle Hunter was flown to the Virgin Islands on a chartered jet paid for

by Edwards` pals the day before his interview with ABC "Nightline."  And an

"Enquirer" reporter says Hunter is now back in her California home, which

the paper says is being paid for by Edwards` former finance chair.


        The question tonight: Since Edwards` has admitted to the affair, is

it time for the "Enquirer" to back off and what should Edwards do now?


        Here now: Radio talk show host, Bill Press; and, A.B. Stoddard,

associate editor of "The Hill."




        ABRAMS:  All right.  Bill, what do you think?  Should the

"Enquirer" be backing off now?


        PRESS:  I think the "Enquirer" should go out in an aircraft carrier

and put up a very big banner that says "Mission accomplished."  You know,

look, I think they set out to destroy John Edwards` political career. 

They`ve done it.  He`s toast.  He`s dead meat.  He`s got about as much life

left as this Bigfoot (ph) does.


        And, you know, Dan, I`ve got to tell you, as a talk show host,

there`s nothing I love better than a sex scandal, particularly involving a

major politician.  I could care a less now about John Edwards.  I think

he`s probably the father of the baby, who cares?  I think it`s time for the

"Enquirer" to move on.


        ABRAMS:  A.B.?


        A.B. STODDARD, THE HILL:  I`m going -- Bill Press is a dear friend

of mine and I might mention blogs with me at "The Hill."  So, I hate to

disagree with him but I must say that I`m here to defend the right to

report.  If it`s true, you report it.


        I don`t think that it`s appropriate for the "Enquirer" to be

obviously playing this game where they`re threatening John Edwards.  If you

have it, print it.




        STODDARD:  Well, I do think, I might add, though, John Edwards has

invited this.  He`s really -- we will get into this later, but John Edwards

has really brought this on himself and knew (INAUDIBLE).


        ABRAMS:  But this is the problem.  I mean, this is the problem,

Bill, when you pick a fight with the "National Enquirer" you better be

ready.  I mean, he`s saying, you know, dismissing them early on, I forget -

- they`re talking about the source of the information, et cetera.  The

bottom line is, he now has an all-out war with the "Enquirer" going on and

when you`re in the situation that he`s in, that`s not a war you want.


        PRESS:  No, no, no.  And let me make it clear, I`m not defending

John Edwards.  I mean, what he did to his wife, what he did to his party,

is absolutely despicable and I, certainly, think the "Enquirer" has every

right to continue to report this story.


        ABRAMS:  So, what should he do now?  What should Edwards do now?


        PRESS:  I think, number one, I think, the "Enquirer" ought to move

on to more interesting -


        ABRAMS:  But what should Edwards do now?


        PRESS:  And, you know what Edwards ought to do - he ought to go

back and hope that he can keep his marriage together and hope, maybe, he

can practice law because, otherwise, look, he`s not going to be at the

convention, he`s not going to be at the administration, he`s not going to

be vice president, he`s not in the cabinet, he`s not going to ever run for

political office again.  He is toast.  So, go back and practice law.


        ABRAMS:  A.B., what does he do?  If you were advising him, right,

and the "Enquirer" is threatening the way they are, they keep revealing new

details that they have every week or so, what do you tell him to do?


        STODDARD:  You stop the bleeding.  You have to tell the truth. 

Look, he decided -- no, no, he decided to pick a time and place of his own

choosing to reveal the facts of his own choosing in that August 8th

interview with "Nightline" and didn`t fully divulge the facts, it was a

mistake.  And he invited all these further investigations and scrutiny and

now, it`s his fault that it`s coming his way.


        He has to stop it by telling the entire truth and then saying, "I

hate what I did."  But don`t give them more to report upon, he`s giving

them more to hunt down and it`s his fault.


        ABRAMS:  Why he should be (INAUDIBLE).


        PRESS:  Dan, you know what, he could never tell every detail that

the "Enquirer" wants to print.  I mean, nobody ever will.  I just think,

again, we`ve exhausted this subject.  I don`t want to know any more about

Larry Craig, I don`t want to know any more about David Vitter, I don`t want

to know any more about how many times when and where John Edwards and

Rielle had sex the first night they met, I don`t care.


        ABRAMS:  Yes.  All right.  Bill Press, A.B. Stoddard, thanks a lot.


        PRESS:  All right, guys, see you later.


        ABRAMS:  Coming up: The mother of missing Florida three-year-old

Caylee Anthony is about to be released from jail.  Her bail was just

posted.  We`ve got the breaking details coming up.


        And the son of "FOX and Friends" anchor, Steve Doocy, is covering

the DNC for the show, but dad not too happy this morning when another

anchor joked about his son maybe being a pothead.  That`s next in Beat the



        What`s your VERDICT?  E-mail us at:  P.O.`ed box

is coming up at the end of the show.  Please include your name, where

you`re writing from.  Back in a minute.




        ABRAMS:  It`s time for tonight`s Beat the Press: Our daily look

back at media hypocrisy, agendas, and the amusing perils of live TV.


        First up: Why is it that CNN`s terrific anchor, Kiran Chetry likes

gold medal swimming winner Mark Spitz over Michael Phelps?  It`s not

because of his swimming ability or even body type.




        KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR:  I have to go with Spitz.  I like a male

with a little bit more hair.  I think Michael Phelps is a little too clean

shaven.  He`s a guy, he should have arm pit hair.  And you can see his

armpits (INAUDIBLE) -- you can see, he has the nice halo effect from the

armpit here with the sunset back there.


        (END VIDEO CLIP)


        ABRAMS:  Next up: To one of my favorite magazines, the "Wine

Spectator," it covers industry news, it reviews wines -- they also

celebrate restaurants with the best wine lists with their Award of

Excellence.  Well, according to author Robin Goldstein, all he needed to

win that award was the $250 submission fee, he then made up a restaurant

name, menu and wine list.  The wines he selected, the lowest Italian wines

for the "Wine Spectator" from the past 20 years and he made it.


        Page 181 listed as the new winner and a graphic using one wine

glass designating his fake restaurant as an Award of Excellence winner. 

Fake restaurant is no longer listed on their Web site.


        Finally: To "FOX and Friends" where they make a lot of jokes, but

this morning, when one of their newest anchors, Dave Briggs tried to make a

joke suggesting that Steve Doocy`s college aged son, Peter, might be

interested in marijuana, the jokes ended.




        DAVE BRIGGS, FOX ANCHOR:  Say they`re going to enforce pot laws

during the Democratic convention and, of course, they could be arrested for

a small amount.  That`s something you might want to forward that to Peter

Doocy, or maybe not.






        BRIGGS:  Only kidding, of course.


        (END VIDEO CLIP)


        ABRAMS:  We need your help Beating the Press.  If you see anything,

right, wrong, amusing or absurd, the Web site:  Please

include the show and the time you saw the item.


        Up next: Bond has just been posted tonight for Casey Anthony, the

mother who waited over a month to report her three-year-old daughter

missing.  We`re going to have the latest coming up.


        And later: Our Olympics edition of Winners and Losers, starring

Michael Phelps and fellow swimmer Amanda Beard, who had something to say

about rumors that the two were romantically involved, quote, "Ewww." 

Coming up.

                (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

                (NEWS BREAK)

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  We are back with breaking news.  Bond has been posted

tonight for Casey Anthony.  The mother awaited a month to report her three-

year-old daughter, Caylee Anthony missing.  Jail officials say the bond was

posted late this evening and she should walk out of jail tomorrow.  Anthony

faces charges of child neglect and filing false reports and has been behind

bars for over a month.  Caylee has not been seen since June 15th. 

Joining us now on the phone is Mark Williams, the news director at

DWNDB Radio in Daytona, Florida.  Thanks very much for joining us.  We

appreciate it.  So is it this bounty hunter who bailed her out?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, DWNDB RADIO (on the phone):  No, Dan, it was

a guy by the name of Tony Estes(ph) who is a Tampa Bay area bail bondsman. 

He did that late this afternoon, posting $50,000 of the $500,000 bond.  You

only need 10 percent and the rest, of course, being covered. 

But, here`s the deal.  Before she gets out of jail, Dan - it won`t be

at 8:30 tomorrow morning, it will probably be mid-afternoon.  She has to

over come three hurdles.  First off, the first thing that they have to do

is notify the Orange County Sheriff`s Offices, the investigating agency,

that Casey Anthony will, in fact, be released on bond. 

Then there is another hold and another hurdle that has to be cleared

and this is, they haven`t disclosed what it is, but from what we

understand, from our inside sources, it`s a psychology test that she has to

undergo to make sure that she will go out and not harm anybody else or harm

herself.  That is, they say, a quick hurdle to overcome. 

Then, thirdly, she has to have a phone because she`s going to have

home confinement with a proximity monitor on her ankle and they have to

have a clear phone line.  They can`t have call waiting, call forwarding or

anything like that.  Earlier this week, they got that line.  So,

apparently, she`s going to be at her home if and when she`s released. 

ABRAMS:  But Mark, what happened to Padilla, the bounty hunter, who was

doing the media rounds claiming he was going to be the one to spring her?

WILLIAMS:  Well, here`s the deal.  He has a nephew by the name of Tony

Padilla.  Both of them flew in from Sacramento, California earlier this

week - as a matter of fact, over the weekend.  And apparently, Tony was

with this Al Estes.  Estes is going to be the agent, but it`s going to be

Padilla in the end ...

ABRAMS:  Oh, got it.

WILLIAMS:  ... going to be Padilla in the end who`s going to be responsible

for everything.

ABRAMS:  Right.  OK.

WILLIAMS:  And Leonard says he`s going to have somebody there 24/7 with


ABRAMS:  I`m going to bring in former FBI profiler, MSNBC analyst, Clint

Van Zandt; and defense attorney Nicole DeBorde. 


All right, as a practical matter, Nicole, take us through the

legalities here.  Does this mean she is going to be released tomorrow or

are there potentially hurdles that she won`t be able to overcome?

NICOLE DEBORDE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  It means that she should be released

tomorrow.  Once the bond is made, then she`s supposed to be released.  It

does sound like they have several holds in place, which is just what it

sounds like.  A hold means that the sheriff`s department will hold her

until they can clear certain administrative processes like, for example,

checking her mental health, making sure nobody else has holds on her from

other counties and make no warrants.  But bottom line is that she should be

getting out tomorrow.  

ABRAMS:  Now, Clint, if you`re law enforcement now, right, and you remain

suspicious of her, how do you deal with it?

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Yes, well, this is a challenge, Dan. 

Everybody`s got a job in this.  As much as this Leonard Padilla, the bail

bondsman, him inserting himself, drives me a little crazy, he`s doing his

job as a bail bondsman although I think he`s doing it for his own purposes. 

The attorney has got his job.

You know, everybody is doing their thing.  The challenge for law

enforcement is that the one person who`s got the key, this young woman who

has sat in jail, she hasn`t shared any information whatsoever.  So, to

suggest that perhaps by releasing her, maybe she`ll drop some critical

piece of information.  Maybe there will be this Perry Mason moment where

she says, "I can`t take the pressure any more." 

You know, I don`t know if that`s going to happen.  But you and I and

your viewers know it was only about a year, a year and a half ago, we had a

similar case in Florida.  A woman by the name of Melinda Duckett was

suspected in her child`s disappearance.  She committed suicide after, you

know, being badgered on television.

ABRAMS:  But Clint, what do you do?  If you`re law enforcement, if you`re

leading the team of people who now know she`s going to be released and you

still have a lot of questions that you don`t feel have been answered, how

do you deal with it?

VAN ZANDT:  Well, they`re waiting for this forensic evidence to come back,

Dan.  I think it probably has.  I`d say, hypothetically, the body fluid or

the hairs that came out of the trunk of the car that Casey drove proved to

be that of her daughter.  Even if that`s the case, then they`re going to

have to somehow link that to the mother.  I mean, the mother can simply

say, "Hey, somebody stole my car and they must have used it to transport my


So, the challenge to law enforcement now, they can`t talk to Casey

unless they go through her attorney.  So they have it continue to build

either a forensic case or come up with some other type of evidence to

suggest she`s done something more than what she`s charged with right now

which is simply a third degree felony.  

ABRAMS:  When the judge set $500,000 as the amount, Nicole, do you think

that the judge was expecting that she wouldn`t be able to find that kind of

money, the 10 percent?

DEBORDE:  I honestly don`t believe the judge thought that she would be able

to bond herself out.  I mean - and the problem with that is that the judges

aren`t supposed to set bonds that they don`t believe a person can make. 

They`re supposed to set a reasonable bail and everybody seemed to get

pretty upset when it turned out that it looked like she was going to be

able to make the bond.  But the fact is, she is entitled to be able to do

that.  She`s entitled to have a reasonable bond and she made it. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Mark, you talked about a number of things that have to

occur now before this happens.  Talk about the home confinement for a


WILLIAMS:  Well, the home confinement, first off, Casey, if she gets out of

jail tomorrow, she will be given a 10-page document which she must sign on

page 10 saying that she adheres to certain things.  She can hold a full-

time job if she wants to.  She, she can go to school, if she wants to. 

But, literally, she must stay in the house. 

Any time she leaves the house, she must have the authority and the OK

of a case manager who`s watching her case.  She can`t be drinking alcohol. 

She can`t have a weapon.  There are certain dress codes involved in this. 

And if she absconds, she`s going back to the Orange County slammer again,


ABRAMS:  Let me play a piece.  This is some of the sound of the tapes made

between Casey Anthony and some of her relatives taken when they called her

early on from jail. 

                (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER:  I don`t know what your involvement

is, sweetheart.  You`re not telling me where she`s at.


(EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at.  Are you kidding me?

CINDY ANTHONY:  Casey, don`t waste your call to scream and holler at me.

CASEY ANTHONY:  No!  Waste my call sitting in the jail, in this bunk?

CINDY ANTHONY:  Whose fault is you sitting in the jail?  You`re blaming me

you`re sitting in the jail?  Blame yourself for telling lies. 

BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY:  We`re going to find out.  Something, whatever`s

going on, it`s going to be found out.  So why not do it now, save yourself


CASEY ANTHONY:  There is nothing to find out.  There`s absolutely nothing

to find out.  That`s even what I told the detectives.

BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY:  Well, you know, everything you`ve been telling

us is a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY:  I have no clue where Caylee is.  If I knew where Caylee is,

do you think any of this would be happening?  No.

FRIEND OF CASEY ANTHONY:  How come everybody`s saying that you`re not

upset, that you`re not crying, that you showed no caring of where Caylee is

at all?

CASEY ANTHONY:  Because I`m not sitting here (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crying

every two seconds because I have to stay composed to talk to detectives, to

make other phone calls, to do other things.  I can`t sit here and be crying

every two seconds like I want to.  I can`t.

BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY:  Do you think Caylee`s OK right now? 

CASEY ANTHONY:  In my gut she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s

close to home.

                (END AUDIO CLIP)

ABRAMS:  The family members, at least most of them, have now come to

support Casey in a way that didn`t sound like they were necessarily doing

on that tape.  Real quick, Clint, do you think they`re going to crack the


VAN ZANDT:  Well, I think they will eventually, Dan.  They`re going to put

her at home and she`s going to have this Martha Stewart ankle bracelet

around her to keep her from wandering too far away from the house.  She`s

eventually going to have to stand trial for these other things that she`s

charged with. 

But the bottom line, she knows and her attorney is going to tell her,

the only person that can hurt you right now, if you had anything to do with

the disappearance or death of your child is yourself.  If you keep your

mouth shut, you`re going to get past this, you know.  Unless they have

physical evidence or unless they come up with a body, Dan, that may be the


ABRAMS:  Yes.  All right.  Mark, Clint and Nicole, thanks a lot. 

Appreciate it.  

                Up next, "Winners and Losers," the Olympics edition with Michael

Phelps promoting Frosted Flakes.  It is causing controversy with some

nutritionists who don`t think the sugary cereal is so great. 

                And the monkey loose in the subway station, as in a subway station. 

"Reality Bites" in 60 seconds.

                (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  Now to "Reality Bites," a dose of reality caught on tape. 

Tonight, to Tokyo where the morning rush hour commute took a strange turn,

thanks to a monkey that wandered into a subway station.  The primate

planted himself above the departure board as police tried in vain to trap

him.  In the end, authorities no match for the little guy.  He escaped. 

According to local media, the monkey was last seen heading towards a nearby

park.  Right back. 

                (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  Welcome back.  It`s time now for tonight`s "Winners and Losers,"

our special Beijing Olympics edition.  And with us, as always, is Contessa

Brewer.  Contessa.

CONTESSA BREWER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  Dan, so, first up, Olympic fans are

hoping for an underwater romance, but those fans may be out of luck big

time.  Romance rumors have been swirling around fellow Olympians Michael

Phelps and Amanda Beard, too hotties.  Phelps tried to quash the gossip

diplomatically diplomatically.  He told "Extra," quote, "I`m not dating

Amanda Beard, I`ll say that.  I think she has a boyfriend."

But a simple "no" wasn`t enough for Beard who took a blow torch to the

romance buzz when she was asked about it on a radio show yesterday.  

                (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE RADIO HOST:  Are you dating Michael Phelps?

AMANDA BEARD, OLYMPIC SWIMMER:  I`m not dating Michael Phelps. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE RADIO HOST:  Have you hooked up with Michael Phelps?

BEARD:  I have never, ever in my life hooked up with Michael Phelps.


BEARD:  Eew, no. 


BEARD:  Eew, no, not even that.  I won`t - no, come on.  Come on, I have

really good taste. 

                (END AUDIO CLIP)

BREWER:  Eew?  No?  I mean, Beard insists today - she told "People" she was

just kidding, says Michael Phelps is like her brother.  Is that an apology? 

You`re like my brother?

ABRAMS:  Yes.  I think that people should lay off.  I think, you know,

she`s joking around.  It`s like you can`t joke about Michael Phelps. 

Suddenly, she`s being criticized because she was suggesting she wouldn`t


Let`s say she really felt that way, right?  Let`s say that they`re

pals and they`re friends and she feels like, "You know what?  There`s no

way I`d date Michael Phelps."  It`s as if you can`t criticize - it`s

politically incorrect to say anything negative about Michael Phelps.  

BREWER:  Come on.  Here, he`s kind of like a kid, you know.  And he`s got -

Look how hot she is.

ABRAMS:  Wow.  She`s really pretty. 

BREWER:  I mean, you know - so, there are a lot of men think so.  So here

you have this hot woman who`s telling this boy, "No, I think of you like my

kid brother.  Eew, gross."  Don`t you think that it hurts his feelings a

little bit?

ABRAMS:  Oh, please.

BREWER:  I mean, he has eight medals to comfort him.  

ABRAMS:  Please.  She claims - this is her quote to "People," "Everyone who

knows me knows I can be a jokester, but I guess I took it too far.  I never

meant to say anything rude about Michael.  I am 100 percent sorry for what

I said.  I take full responsibility." 

I mean, she has to come out and give this like, heart-felt apology,

"I`m so sorry that I said `Eww.`"  I mean, you know - Chill out!

BREWER:  OK.  More Michael Phelps news here, more controversy.  Phelps,

just one of a long line of Olympic champions to land on the Wheaties box,

is passing on the breakfast of champions this time around, opting instead

for Kellogg`s cereals.  Reportedly his Olympic glory will be chronicled on

corn flakes and frosted flakes boxes.  Frosted flakes, next month. 

Health experts are not happy with that.  One nutritionist tells the

"New York Daily News," "I would not consider frosted flakes the food of an

Olympian.  I would rather see him promoting Fiber One."  I would rather see

him promoting oatmeal.  I would rather see him promoting Cheerios." 

ABRAMS:  I know.  The nutritionist now gets to decide - by the way, that`s

a mock box we made up there.  Not really -

BREWER:  We haven`t seen that yet.  

ABRAMS:  Yes.  But, you know, will the nutritionists now get to decide

which products Michael Phelps is allowed to endorse?  

BREWER:  I mean, I think what she`s saying is, "Do you really want to

encourage children to eat the sugared cereal?"  I mean -

ABRAMS:  I know.  Do you want to hear problems that he`s going to have

then?  If that`s a problem, this is what he said on CNBC when he`s talking

about the types of endorsements that he might like to do. 

                (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


food.  I mean I eat fast food all the time.  I think a fast food deal would

be pretty cool.  That would be pretty fun.  

                (END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS:  Oh, horrors!  Horrors!

BREWER:  That`s going to make the sugared cereal look good. 

ABRAMS:  Yes.  Horrors!  He is suggesting he might endorse.  What, he has

to suddenly adhere to these ridiculous standards where he can only endorse

things that everyone agrees are good?

BREWER:  No, I don`t think that`s the point.  But the point - you know,

12,000 calories for breakfast - it`s not - The sugared cereal is the least

of his problems.  And if he`s eating that much for breakfast ...

ABRAMS:  Exactly.

BREWER:  ... and encouraging kids with the pancakes and the French toast

and all.  I mean, you know, who cares?  Let him get his money where he can. 

ABRAMS:  Leave him alone on this one.

BREWER:   Next up, most Olympic contenders get a good luck message from

their parents, or their spouses or their sweethearts.  But a movie star may

have made the magic happen for Australian sailing champs Malcolm Page and

Nathan Wilmoth.  They pulled off a gold medal victory after Nicole Kidman

phoned them.  Kidman, of course from Australia herself, called to wish them

luck before the race.  They almost missed the call. 

This is what`s really funny.  Page says he ignores his cell phone when

it rang because he didn`t recognize the number.  Then he heard Nicole

Kidman`s voice his voice mail and called her right back.  He told "The

Australian Herald Sun," quote, "She was very surprised that we do have a

tradition of naming our boats after her movies and she`s just really stoked

to be part of a team."  I`m sure that`s what she told them.  

ABRAMS:  You know, Contessa, the headline says, "Nicole Kidman Prompts

Olympians` Sail to Victory."  As if it was Nicole Kidman`s call that led to

the -

BREWER:  Well, listen.  If Helen of Troy can spark a war, I don`t

understand why Nicole Kidman can`t spark a gold medal victory.  

ABRAMS:  Contessa is staying with us.  Up next, will tonight`s big winner

or loser be Paris Hilton, hoping to make a new best friend so she can get

her break on British television?  John Mayer apparently broke up with

Jennifer Aniston via text message?  Or U.S. women breaking the bank,

spending $7 billion a year on cosmetics and beauty products?  And your E-

mails in the "P.O.`d Box."  We`ll be right back.

                (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  It`s time for the day`s other winners and losers, and Contessa is

back with us.  Contessa?

BREWER:  Dan, do you know what a BFF is?

ABRAMS:  I do, actually.  

BREWER:  What?

ABRAMS:  Best friend forever.  

BREWER:  Are you just reading that on the teleprompter? 

ABRAMS:  No, I actually knew that beforehand.  

BREWER:  OK.  Very well done.  You passed the test.  Paris Hilton on the

hunt for a new BFF.  A British one.  The celebuthon(ph) is prepping for the

UK version of her upcoming reality show "Paris Hilton`s New Best Friend." 

Hilton tells the British network ITV, quote, "London, watch out.  I`m

coming to town and bringing my fast-paced life with me.  I need a new best

friend who is hot." 

ABRAMS:  Look at the picture we`re using of Paris Hilton.  

BREWER:  She looks very serious. 

ABRAMS:  It`s an awful picture.  All right.  Go ahead.

BREWER:  "Who can keep up with me and who, most of all, is real."  Wait a

minute, if I`d known, Paris Hilton wants someone who is real - "And won`t

be a backstabber."

Here`s the premise.  Potential pals have to live together while Paris

puts them through friend endurance tests like party appearances, photo

shoots, girl talk.  I mean, this sounds like the perfect job for me.  I

could do definitely that.  

ABRAMS:  Right.

BREWER:  She`ll eliminate the wannabes one by one until she`s left with a

brand new best friend.  Yes!

ABRAMS:  You know, I saw Paris Hilton in a restaurant last week.  And like

the restaurant had like private security there for her.  Just for Paris. 

She was there with her family.  

BREWER:  I mean, how does she expect to make a best friend with all the

security guarding her from the real people? 

ABRAMS:  It is not easy being Paris.  Leave her alone!  Leave her alone! 

Leave her alone!

BREWER:  You know why she`s searching for a British best friend?


BREWER:  She says when she goes to London so frequently, she can`t really

schlep all her friends with her.  I don`t know why, she schleps her dog


OK.  Next up - oh, no, he didn`t.  The John Mayer-Jennifer Aniston

breakup saga continues.  And now reports are surfacing that John dumped Jen

with a text message.  

ABRAMS:  I mean, this a guy - 

BREWER:  A friend of Mayer`s supposedly told a British tabloid Aniston was

so intent on getting married and having children that Mayer felt hemmed in. 

Who wouldn`t marry Jennifer Aniston?  So after a 20-minute phone fight, he

sent Jen a text that said, "That`s it.  The end."  I mean, if this is true



BREWER:  Total loser.  

ABRAMS:  You know, I question this story.  I`ve got to tell you it sounds

like something being pitched by a friend of Aniston to make him look so

bad, because you`re right.  If it`s true, it`s unbelievable. 

BREWER:  OK.  How about this?  If a friend lies, total loser. 

By the way, remember Brett E-mailed last night and said I was male

bashing when I was saying -   

ABRAMS:  Yes, I do.  

BREWER:  OK.  How does this one strike you?  If it`s true, Brett, what do

you think about this?  Is this really male bashing, text breaking up with

someone?  I don`t know.

ABRAMS:  I`m glad you remembered Brett`s name.  He`ll be very flattered. 

BREWER:  It`s all right here.

ABRAMS:  Yes, because he insulted you, you remember.  

BREWER:  Finally, women apparently - you`re going to love this story. 


BREWER:  Women are more appearance-obsessed than ever, and just costing us

tons of time and money.  Believe it or not, according to the YWCA, women in

the United States spend some $7 billion per year on cosmetics and beauty

products.  I mean, that`s $100 a month.  That`s an outfit.  I mean, if

you`re bargain shopping like I do. 

And according to a recent British survey, by the way, the average

woman spends more than 3,000 hours primping and preening over her lifetime. 

So we spend, in the time that we spend, Dan, we, women, as a whole, waxing,

moisturizing, tweezing, shaving, plucking - you could fly to the moon and

back 22 times.  

ABRAMS:  Right.  And sometimes people do it on camera with -

BREWER:  Oh.  You know what?  That`s playing dirty.  They`d think -

ABRAMS:  You know, and they get busted.  

BREWER:  You know who should spend more time grooming?

ABRAMS:  Yes, I know.  Contessa, let`s talk about this.  So what`s the

matter?  So what, so women spend a lot of money and et cetera.

BREWER:  You know what it is, and you know who they`re primping for?  Men. 

ABRAMS:  Yes.  

BREWER:  As I said before, you know who really needs the primping.  The men


ABRAMS:  Are you male bashing again?  Are you doing it again? 

BREWER:  I`m just saying -

ABRAMS:  Are you doing get right after Brett - I mean -

BREWER:  I`m just saying women - We, women, for all of this, are losers. 

In fact, you know what?  To make up for it tomorrow, no makeup for me, no

hair, no primping.  In fact, I might not even take a shower.  

ABRAMS:  Yes.  Yes.

BREWER:  Great. 

ABRAMS:  Contessa, stick around for a minute.  Because in the "P.O.`d Box,"

I want to see if you`ll agree with this comment, all right? 

We just have an E-mail tonight Jazz Williamson from San Diego who

writes, "I sent over 100 insightful E-mails to no avail.  Let me try this

approach.  You seem like a cool guy that I`d want to share a beer with. 

But your "Mr. Roger`s Neighborhood," "Howdy Doody," Alfred E. Newman "What,

me worry?" end of the show goodbye wave is totally Nerdsville to the nth

degree.  Still, I love your show." 

BREWER:  This is coming from Jazz, who has written to you 100 times.  Jazz

has a lot he wants to say.  

ABRAMS:  He does.  

BREWER:  And you know what?  He finally, after 100 times, hit on a topic

that got you to put him in the E-mail.  

ABRAMS:  He made it as the only E-mail.  He made it as the only E-mail.

BREWER:  Jazz, I`ve got to say, buddy.  I love Dan`s wave.  I think it`s

the coolest.  It`s like the Fonz.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Contessa, let`s see.  Can you do it?  Can you do the


BREWER:  Kind of a salute, right?  

ABRAMS:  That is all the time we have for tonight.  E-mail us about the

show  A lot of E-mails about the future of this show. 

We`ll talk about those tomorrow.  See you.




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