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'The Ed Show' for Thursday, April 15th, 2010

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

Guests: Joe Barton, Bob Shrum, Phil Hare, Cliff May, Jack Rice, Ron Christie, Joe Arpaio, Eric Byrnes

ED SCHULTZ, HOST:  Good evening, Americans, and welcome to THE ED SHOW tonight from New York.

These stories are hitting my hot buttons tonight. 

Well, it‘s Tax Day, and the Tea Party mobs are out in full force, spreading lies that the president of the United States is a communist and people are being taxed more now than ever before.

I want to know if Republican Congressman Joe Barton has the courage to call them out on all of that.  He‘ll join us.

President Obama, well, he got after it today.  The owners of the Upper Big Branch mine, he says he won‘t accept miner deaths as the cost of doing business. 

And Bill O‘Reilly is stuck in the fact-free zone.  He still won‘t admit people on Fox News lied about the health care mandate leading to prison time. 

Bill, even hosts on your own network say you‘re wrong on this one. 

And I just can‘t wait until that part of the show coming up tonight. 

This is the story that‘s got me fired up tonight, folks.  It‘s, I guess you could say, Super Bowl Sunday for the Tea Party folks.

Thousands of old, disgruntled Americans are attending hundreds of Tax Day Tea Parties across America.  The right-wing network across the street, well, they have really fueled the people to believe the flat-out lie about the president. 

The new CBS/”New York Times” poll shows this: 92 percent of the Tea Party believes President Obama is moving the country towards socialism—hold it right there—even though the market has gone up 3,000 points, which is really corporate capitalism. 

Here‘s a news flash for you, you Tea Party nation.  You‘re dead wrong on this one. 

We have no single payer, Wall Street up 3,000 points over the last year, and nobody‘s taking your gun.  I know, because I‘m a gun owner, and nobody‘s taking my gun. 

The Tea Party Express made their final stop at Washington‘s Freedom Plaza this morning. 

Here‘s Georgia Senator Saxby Chambliss. 


SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS ®, GEORGIA:  Thanks for coming to the Devil‘s City to help us do the Lord‘s work. 

I want to make sure that April 15 is no longer considered Tax Day.  I want to make sure that we don‘t add 16,500 internal revenue agents at the Internal Revenue Service.  I want to see if we can‘t eliminate the Internal Revenue Service. 



SCHULTZ:  Oh, so honorable.  By the way, that is a Fox News talking point, and it is a lie. 

There is nothing—I repeat, nothing—in the health care bill that calls for 16,000 IRS agents to be hired and going after you if you don‘t have health insurance.  I mean, it just doesn‘t stop there. 

The “Psycho Talk” queen of whipping up the crazies, back at it again today, getting into the action.  Here she is. 


REP. MICHELE BACHMANN ®, MINNESOTA:  They think they‘re going to make the Republicans fry on this.  Well, I‘m just here to tell you, this financial services overhaul bill that President Obama has is really a permanent bailout authority for the government for Wall Street and the big banks.  That‘s what President Obama, that‘s what Speaker Pelosi, that‘s what Harry Reid wants to serve up to you.  I think they don‘t realize that your I.Q. scores are way above average.


SCHULTZ:  Oh, yes!  Did you get that?  Two words again, “permanent bailout.”  That‘s what they‘re all about.  They just want to get it right. 

Did you hear Michele Bachmann think that—she doesn‘t think that we understand how smart she is.  Nobody in Washington, my friends, is more separated from reality than that Minnesota congresswoman, Michele Bachmann. 

She and another elected “Psycho Talkers” have been on a non-stop fear and smear campaign for weeks.  And I don‘t think the Tea Party crowd is dumb, I just think they‘re misinformed and they are followers, is what they are. 

They are followers.  They have been led like sheep by the fringe conservative right in this country. 

The fear machine is in high gear across the street.  Beck has got his people believing that the president has got a deep-seated hatred for white people.  Hannity has been calling the president a socialist every day since he‘s been in office.  And the Tea Party, they just buy it hook, line and sinker. 

This is nothing but an off shoot of the Republican Party.  According to that same CBS/”New York Times” poll, 53 percent of the Tea Partiers consider shows done by people like Beck and Hannity as news, rather than entertainment.  And it‘s an ugly cycle. 

Fox reports a lie, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, well, they just run out there and they run with it, and they show up at these Tea Party things, and they have these Hitler signs running around, and they‘ve got sidearms.  Can‘t go to a Tea Party unless you have got your gun on you. 

They‘re misguided.  They don‘t have the facts.  They say things that simply aren‘t true. 

The Tea Party wants you to believe that they are mainstream.  They claim that it‘s just a crazy few people out there that are doing this stuff.  No, no, no. 

Look, the polls show that this is nothing but an offshoot of the Republican Party.  These are the disgruntled people.  They‘re not Democrats, they‘re not disgruntled progressives, they‘re not liberals.  These are the people that lost the last election that just can‘t stand the fact that Barack Obama has been successful when it comes to getting the stimulus package to work, to create jobs, to get health care, to get rid of the pre-existing condition, to jump-start the economy. 

This crowd is disappointed we‘re not losing 800,000 jobs a month anymore.  This crowd is disappointed that this president has now got a dialogue with countries around the world that, you know, yes, maybe we better reduce our nuclear stockpile. 

It‘s sad is what it is.  They are the crazy wing of the Republican Party and they‘re getting a lot of help. 

And I think we should point out that Fox news personnel is taking part

personnel, you know, like employees, people with shows, producers, anchors, and all that stuff.  Fox News personnel is taking part in more than a dozen of these Tea Party rallies across the country.  This is nothing but a promotion for radio talk show hosts to get up there and gin up the crowd and introduce them and get some promotion. 

I mean, Neil Boortz today, big talker down in Atlanta and in the southeastern portion of the United States, he‘s up on stage today talking about his liberty. 

Neil, I know you.  You call me if you think you‘re losing your liberty. 

There is no mandate in the health care bill, Neil.  There isn‘t one. 

If you don‘t get health care, you‘re going to pay a tax. 

You don‘t have to get health care if you don‘t want it, but you‘re going to get charged if you don‘t.  It‘s no different than your license, it‘s no different than your house insurance or your car insurance. 

The president of the United States has led progressives to change.  We‘re not even 18 months into this new effort to change America and bring some corporate accountability to America, and who‘s out there screaming?  Old white folks that are upset that they‘re going to get taxed and that they‘re going to lose their wealth. 

That‘s what this is all about.  It‘s the Republican disgruntled wing is what it is. 

Tell me what you think about all of this, folks.  Let‘s get a tech survey going here again tonight.  The number to dial is 1-877-ED-MSNBC. 

My question tonight: Is the Tea Party movement legitimate or a fringe group?  Press 1 for legitimate, press 2 for fringe group.  I‘ll bring you the results later on in the show.  And you can join in on the conversation online by following me on Twitter at WeGotEd.  1-877-ED-MSNBC.

Joining me tonight is Texas Congressman Republican Joe Barton.

Congressman, good to have you with us tonight. 

REP. JOE BARTON ®, TEXAS:  Glad to be with you. 

SCHULTZ:  Is this just the Republican Party in disguise? 

BARTON:  I don‘t think so.  I think they‘re Independents.  I think they‘re concerned about the country.  But they‘re not any kind of an official group of the Republican Party.  In fact, the Tea Party people in my district, most of them, are folks that until just now, haven‘t been politically active at all with either party. 

SCHULTZ:  OK.  So you think the majority of these folks have never been politically active?  I guess what I‘m asking is, did they vote for McCain or Obama? 

BARTON:  Well, if they voted.  I mean, again, I can‘t speak for the national movement, but I spent a fair amount of time with the Texas movement, and these are folks that were not active politically in any part of the Republican Party or in my congressional district. 

SCHULTZ:  Now, how many of these people, Congressman, were not active politically?  I mean, you‘re portraying this as the Tea Party, these are new, active, politically-engaged people in America right now, all of a sudden. 

BARTON:  Well, again, I‘m only speaking for the part of Texas that I represent.  There are some that have been politically active.  But most of them have just become very concerned about America, and they want to do something about it.

And they‘re committed enough to organize themselves and to petition the government, and to express their beliefs, which I think is a good thing for both political parties.  It puts us on our toes. 

SCHULTZ:  OK.  They have come up with a Contract From America.  These are a list of the top 10 things that they want to do. 

Protect the Constitution is the first one.  And I want to ask you on that one, what has President Obama done not to protect the Constitution, or what has he done that‘s unconstitutional? 

BARTON:  Well, I think there are a number on that particular question that think this mandate for individual insurance which you don‘t think is a mandate, but which I certainly think is a mandate and the people that passed the law think it‘s a mandate, there is a great deal of debate about whether that‘s constitutional or not, because it connotes that if you just exist as a person, the government has the right to claim that you‘re an interstate commerce and can be regulated by the federal government. 

SCHULTZ:  OK.  So you go along with all these attorneys general across the country saying that it‘s unconstitutional?  So the health care bill is unconstitutional? 

BARTON:  I think that part of it is a debatable proposition, yes. 

SCHULTZ:  OK.  All right.

The other one is reject cap and trade; demand a balanced budget; enact fundamental tax reform; restore fiscal responsibility and constitutionally-limited government in Washington; end runaway government spending; defund, repeal and replace government-run health care; pass an all of the above; stop the pork; stop the tax hikes. 

Could you endorse all 10 of these? 

BARTON:  I‘ve certainly endorsed the principles that they enunciate. 

As always, the beauty is in the details, or the devil is in the details.  But I‘m not upset that there are many, many Americans that weren‘t real active politically that now are active and asking for more limited government and rein in on the federal government, and reducing the deficit and reducing spending.  I think those are good things.

SCHULTZ:  And don‘t you think the president wants to do that?  Don‘t you think President Obama wants to reduce the deficit?  Hasn‘t he called for a commission that the Republicans said they were for and then didn‘t vote for? 

BARTON:  His budget that he submitted to the Congress, his 10-year budget, shows no deficit less than half a trillion dollars any time in the next 10 years.  That‘s not reducing the deficit or reducing the budget. 

SCHULTZ:  Well, he does have an effort to do it long term.  We‘re not going to be doing it overnight. 

BARTON:  Over 10 years?  Give me a break. 

SCHULTZ:  Well, it‘s going to take more than that.  It‘s going to take more than that, and it was runaway spending by the Bush administration that took us from surpluses to record deficits. 

Congressman, good to have you with us tonight.  I appreciate your time. 

BARTON:  I‘m always glad to be with you. 

SCHULTZ:  You bet.

Let‘s bring in Democratic strategist Bob Shrum tonight—and New York University professor. 

Bob, is this about race?  Is the Tea Party about race? 

BOB SHRUM, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  A lot of it is if you look at “The New York Times” poll today.  And I have written about this in my column for

You have twice as many Tea Partiers as ordinary Americans believe that Barack Obama favors blacks over whites.  A majority of them actually say that we‘ve exaggerated the difficulties that blacks have confronted in this society, and a majority of them say that Barack Obama‘s policies are really directed at just helping the poor. 

I mean, when they say they want their country back, “We want our country back,” I think we now know what they mean.  What they mean is that they‘re having difficulties with the demographic and societal changes in America, with having an African-American president, with all of the things and all of the changes that they‘re seeing around them, not just health care. 

You know, Ed, there‘s a new University of Washington survey where the director has come out and said that the problem—or what‘s driving the Tea Party is not just politics, it‘s not just policy.  It‘s race. 

SCHULTZ:  No question about it.  I believe that, too.  And this started long before the health care bill—the devil in the details was coming out about the health care bill and the minutia of it all. 

Is this not just a Fox News promotion and a talk show host promotion? 

And isn‘t this just an offshoot of the disgruntled Republicans?  

SHRUM:  Oh, I think the whole thing is.  Look, the Tea Party people say they‘re populists.  Then we find out in this survey that they‘re almost 50 percent more likely to make over $100,000 a year. 

This language about the financial reform, the Wall Street reform bill being a permanent bailout, actually comes from the Republican pollster Frank Luntz, who did a study back in January and recommended that they say this before there was an actual bill out of the Senate Banking Committee.  So they had their talking point written before the bill was written. 

In fact, what the bill does is end the era of too big to fail, creates a fund so that government can allow businesses to go down—financial institutions to go down when they make bad investments.  But we can cushion the after-effects and the fallout for ordinary investments.  That makes a lot of sense. 

These guys, Mitch McConnell and the Senate Republican leader, and John Cornyn, the head of the Republican Campaign Committee, had a meeting with all the Wall Street folks about a week ago.  And they said, look, we‘re going to help you, we‘re going to stand there, we‘re going to see if we can make this bill a lot softer.  And we‘ve got to have something, they said, that we call reform.  But we‘re going to see if we can really soften this, and then we‘re going to come back to you and ask you for money. 

SCHULTZ:  Bob Shrum, great to have you with us tonight.

SHRUM:  Thank you.

SCHULTZ:  Thanks so much. 

Coming up, Johnny get your gun.  The man I called a warmonger wants to pull the trigger on Iran.  More on that at the bottom of the hour.

Plus, Bill O‘Reilly is digging himself even deeper into a hole trying to say that the right-wing network never was reporting a lie about the health care bill.  And, of course, Eric Burns from Media Matters will stop all of that spin later in the program. 

And America‘s most feared sheriff will tell us how he plans to crack down on illegal immigration.

That‘s coming up on THE ED SHOW.

Stay with us.


SCHULTZ:  Welcome back to THE ED SHOW and thanks for watching tonight. 

We started this program last night with a call for justice for the 29 miners who were killed on the job in the Upper Big Branch coal mine in West Virginia.  The CEO of Massey Energy knew that the mine was unsafe.  I think he should face a criminal investigation for his negligence. 

Now, this morning, the president said the nation owes more to the miners and promised that the Justice Department will use every available tool in this investigation.  And he called out the Massey executives directly for putting profits before the safety of the workers. 


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  Owners responsible for conditions in the Upper Big Branch mine should be held accountable for decisions they made and preventive measures they failed to take.  Safety violators like Massey have still been able to find ways to put their bottom line before the safety of their workers, filing endless appeals instead of paying fines and fixing safety problems.  I refuse to accept any number of miner deaths as simply a cost of doing business. 


SCHULTZ:  Joining me now is Illinois Congressman Phil Hare.  He is also a former union leader and member of the House Education and Labor Committee. 

Congressman, good to have you with us tonight. 

REP. PHIL HARE (D), ILLINOIS:  Good to be with you, Ed.

SCHULTZ:  Let‘s cut to the chase.  Everything in Washington is political.  If the Democrats can‘t get behind labor now in the wake of loss of life here and make some changes, when are they going to do it? 

HARE:  Never, Ed.  This guy is ridiculous -- 450 citations last year, 129 this year.  We‘re only into mid-April. 

Look, there‘s got to be a way to shut these mines down when they‘re not safe.  You‘ve got 29 people that lost their lives that n ever should have lost their lives.  This guy -- 

SCHULTZ:  Are you convinced that the president is serious about this? 

HARE:  Oh, I absolutely am.  And I‘ll tell you what I‘ve got to do.  I support the president 1,000 percent on this. 

We need to get more administrative law judges.  But look, these guys think it‘s better to pay the fines than to clear these mines.

There has to be under a new miner act, Ed, for us to shut these mines down when we know they‘re unsafe and get those people out of harm‘s way.  These people—I‘ll tell you, I looked at this guy, and I couldn‘t believe he looked in the camera and talked about this corporation, like how much they care. 

He doesn‘t care about the people in that mine.  And he didn‘t care about—he can talk all he wants to talk. 

Look, I‘m more than angry about this.  This guy needs to be in handcuffs if he‘s found to be guilty of this. 

You cannot tell me that 129 citations just this month—and by the way, he‘s the number one appealer.  What he does, Ed, is he just ties it up and appeals and appeals and appeals.  And he sends miners down into a mine that he absolutely knows is not a safe place to be. 

SCHULTZ:  But should this be viewed as a defining moment for labor in this country when it comes to protection in the workplace? 

HARE:  Absolutely.

SCHULTZ:  I don‘t know what other scenario could play out to get the attention of the party in power. 

HARE:  Twenty-nine good, decent men went to work.  Look, ordinary people want a safe place to work.  This is a dangerous enough job, and it‘s a tough job to do. 

And if we don‘t do this now, if we don‘t stick together and we don‘t make these people accountable—and I don‘t mean just by putting fines on them—I‘m talking about criminal accountability—if this is proven that this guy could have done something about it -- 29 people. 

Look, we‘ve had four in the last four years.  What‘s it going to take?  I mean, how much longer are we going to sit here?  This shouldn‘t be even, by the way, from my perspective—

SCHULTZ:  Well, it sounds to me like there‘s going to have to be an oversight, some kind of czar.  And I know the righties are going to go nuts on that word, but somebody has got to come in and say, you‘re going shut this mine down because it‘s not safe.  They have to. 

Are you willing to support that? 

HARE:  Absolutely, I am.  Look, as I said earlier, when you get these types of violations, and you know that the ventilation system isn‘t working inside of a mine, you don‘t have to be a rocket scientist.

What you do is you shut that mine down, you get those miners out of harm‘s way.  You fix the problem, you make sure it‘s inspected, and then and only then do you put people back into that mine.  So absolutely we do. 

SCHULTZ:  Here‘s the union mine president, Cecil Roberts, on this show last night. 


CECIL ROBERTS, PRESIDENT, UNION MINE WORKERS OF AMERICA:  Don Blankenship should be handcuffed, put in leg irons, and led off to jail, along with that full board at Massey Energy.  They‘re nothing but cronies and “yes” men for him to allow him to do what he has been doing. 


SCHULTZ:  Congressman, do you agree with that? 

HARE:  I do.  If he‘s found criminally guilty, I‘ll tell you, he ought to go to jail, and he ought to go to jail for a very long time. 

SCHULTZ:  Great to have you with us, Congressman.  Appreciate your time.  Thanks so much.

HARE:  Thank you.  My pleasure.  Thank you, Ed.

SCHULTZ:  Phil Hare from Chicago tonight, here on THE ED SHOW.

Every good protest needs a good protest song.  I‘ll show you what passes for entertainment at a Tea Party protest.  Victoria Jackson sings her way right into the “Zone.”


SCHULTZ:  And in “Psycho Talk” tonight, what do you think?  The anti-tax Tea Party rally in Washington today had plenty of crazy lawmakers running their mouths.  But they also managed to drag out some of Hollywood‘s finest right-wing nut jobs, ,like former “Saturday Night Live” cast member Victoria Jackson. 

She decided to put the Tea Party talking points to music. 


VICTORIA JACKSON, ACTRESS (singing):  It seems these days I‘m in haze, and I can‘t concentrate on things.  I bite my lip a lot and fidget with the buttons on my blouse.

Why?  Because there‘s a communist living in the White House.

My husband really misses me.  My parents think I‘ve gone crazy.  Only Glenn Beck understands me.


JACKSON:  Glenn Beck, whoo! 

And there‘s a communist living in the White House.  There‘s a communist—everybody in the White House!  There‘s a communist living in the White House.


SCHULTZ:  Aren‘t you upset you didn‘t go?  But wait.  There‘s more. 

She had an encore prepared. 


JACKSON (singing):  Obama is a liar and we all know that well.  He‘s our communist dictator and taking us to—


JACKSON:  But on this march toward tyranny I need luck or a magic trick, because I hope I don‘t get sick.  I hope I don‘t get sick.

He messed up Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.  So keep your

hands off me.  Keep your hands off me


SCHULTZ:  No problem, Victoria.  Consider my hands permanently off. 

You can count on it. 

That is some tone-deaf “Psycho Talk.”  

Coming up on THE ED SHOW, President Obama just launched a bold initiative to get rid of nuclear weapons.  But wait a minute.  John McCain wants to pull the trigger on Iran. 

I‘ll set the warmonger straight with Cliff May next. 

Plus, find out why a host at Fox News is calling out one of his own.  Well, it‘s nice to know I‘m not the only one pointing out Bill O‘Reilly‘s bald-faced lie. 

And America‘s sheriff joins us to talk about the possible new police state in Arizona.

Stay tuned.  You‘re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ:  Welcome back to THE ED SHOW tonight, here on MSNBC.  John McCain, back at it again.  During the presidential campaign, when he was running for the Republican nomination, he tried to win over the neo-cons by joking about bombing Iran. 


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA:  That old Beach Boys song, bomaran (ph).  Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb—anyway, I think Iran is a great threat. 


SCHULTZ:  I called him a war-monger for that one. 


SCHULTZ:  He is a war-monger.  His policies and his positions on Iraq certainly parallel that of a war-monger.  He fits the description. 


SCHULTZ:  He sure does.  Fast forward to 2010; McCain is being challenged in a Republican primary in Arizona against Tea Party hero J.D.  Hayworth.  At a Senate hearing Wednesday, McCain started talking about pulling the trigger on Iran sanctions. 


MCCAIN:  George Schultz, my favorite secretary of state in all the world, once said his Marine drill instructor told him never point a gun at somebody unless you‘re ready to pull the trigger.  We keep pointing the gun.  We haven‘t pulled a single trigger yet, and it‘s about time we did. 


SCHULTZ:  For more, let me bring in Cliff May, Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.  Cliff, good to have you on tonight.  You‘re a good, solid conservative.  I need some clarification here.  Does John McCain want the United States of America to take military action against the Iranians? 

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES:  No.  Let me clarify that as quickly and as emphatically I can.  He wants to pull the trigger on the sanctions legislation.  This is a bipartisan bill, a House bill and a Senate bill, strongly bipartisan.  It has passed the House, passed the Senate.  It‘s going to go to conference and then the president‘s desk.  It‘s the one peaceful means we may have to help prevent Iran from moving ahead towards becoming a nuclear power, which none of us should want. 

This legislation is good, solid legislation.  It‘s serious sanctions.  Again, bipartisan, that‘s what he‘s talking about, pull the trigger.  And let‘s do these sanctions legislation. 

SCHULTZ:  OK, now McCain is quick to pull the trigger.  He likes confrontation.  He always has.  He runs on it all the time.  He‘s running for reelection.  Do you think that comment had anything to do with the competition he‘s getting from J.D. Hayworth in Arizona? 

MAY:  I‘m sure he‘s very cognizant of the competition he‘s getting from J.D.  However, this is not inconsistent with anything he‘s ever said in the past.  He‘s saying, let‘s use the legislative means we have.  Let‘s use the peaceful means we have to see if we can put some real pressure on Iran at this point.  We haven‘t done it.

Both Hillary Clinton and President Obama have said it was unacceptable for Iran to move ahead and have a nuclear weapon.  After all, Iran is the leading terror sponsor in the world, according to the State Department.  It has pledged a world without America.  It has pledged to wipe Israel off the map.  Why wouldn‘t we use serious sanctions. 

Obama has tried engagement.  He has tried to reach out.  He has done so in good faith.  His hand has been slapped down over and over.  It‘s time to try plan B.  Plan B is exactly this, the bipartisan legislation that has been passed by the House, has been passed by the Senate.  Let‘s use it and see if we can make progress. 

SCHULTZ:  Your organization, Foundation for Defense of Democracies, is President Obama on the right track getting 47 countries around the world to sign on to reducing nuclear weapons? 

MAY:  Very important to clean up loose nukes.  But you don‘t want to do that and ignore the fact that if Iran gets nuclear weapons, they could hand those weapons to Hezbollah, for example.  Hezbollah terrorists have killed Americans in 1983 in Beirut.  They‘ve killed innocent civilians in Argentina. 

SCHULTZ:  Do you agree with the president‘s efforts on what he‘s doing? 

MAY:  I agree with cleaning up loose nukes.  But worrying about that and not worrying about Iran is like worrying about a guy lighting a stogie in your living room while your kitchen is on fire. 

SCHULTZ:  Cliff May, good to have you on tonight. Thanks so much.

MAY:  Thank you, Ed.  Good to see you.

SCHULTZ:  You bet.  Now let‘s get some rapid fire response from our pane on these stories.  Attorney General Eric Holder tells Republican senators the administration may still try alleged 9/11 mastermind in federal court here in New York City. 

The Tea Party crazies are out in full force for tax day.  Michele Bachmann told a crowd the Democrats‘ financial regulation bill would be a permanent bailout for Wall Street. 

And Lou Dobbs tells “GQ Magazine,” quote, “I never said I‘m running for president, but I‘m not ruling anything out.” 

With us tonight, former CIA officer, Jack Rice, and also Republican strategist Ron Christie tonight.  Ron, I got to ask you, what in the world would a Lou Dobbs candidacy look like? 

RON CHRISTIE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST:  I like Lou Dobbs.  Lou Dobbs has been a friend of mine.  I think he has energized a lot of the Tea Party movement individuals.  He‘s out tonight, apparently, at the Post Office here in New York City, rallying the base. 

I think he prides himself as being Mr. independent, an independent voice.  I think it would be an interesting move if Lou decided to run. 

SCHULTZ:  You agree with that, independent voice, Jack Rice? 

JACK RICE, FMR. CIA AGENT:  Yes, well, that‘s a good word for it.  I guess he‘s independent.  The problem is, you contemplate where this guy would drive the country—you can look back at some of the things he has said in the past when it comes to immigration, when it comes to the Latino community, when it comes to the world.  And I think what he would do is drive us back to about the 1950s, which might be fine if you‘re Lou Dobbs, but for everybody else, not so much. 

CHRISTIE:  Opposed to where Obama is driving the country right now, where we have ridiculously high levels of spending, where he -- 

RICE:  Let me get this right.  You‘re the same guy who sat back when President Bush was spending more than any president, all the way back to LBJ, including Clinton, including Carter, and you sat back and said that‘s not a problem? 

CHRISTIE:  I‘m the same guy who actually said that we spent six trillion dollars, accumulated six trillion dollars worth of debt from 1789 to 2008.  President Obama has spent more in 20 months than President Bush has spent in eight years in office.  So you can try to say George Bush tried to run everything up.  Obama has spent more than this country spent from 1789 to 2008. 

SCHULTZ:  The president can‘t spend a dime without the authorization of the Congress, Ron.  You know that. 

CHRISTIE:  Thanks, Ed, that is true. 

SCHULTZ:  Congress voted for this.  We had an election.  He said he was going to do a stimulus  package.  The American people went along with it.  Three Republicans went along with it.  So it‘s not all the president.  It was a democratically elected government that decided to spend this money to get us out of this economic problem. 

CHRISTIE:  That was an extraordinarily one-sided partisan approach, I would point out, Ed. 

Look, you can‘t call it a bipartisan bill if you have one person in the House of Representatives from the state of Louisiana who voted for this thing. 

SCHULTZ:  A lot of that has to do with the strategy of the Republicans to obstruct. 

CHRISTIE:  It was actually our strategy, Ed—the strategy was we cannot afford to bankrupt this country.  We said, as a party, that is what we stand for. 

SCHULTZ:  Ed, were there some Republican economists that went along with the president on the stimulus package, is that true? 

CHRISTIE:  Sure, but they‘re not elected.  Who cares?  I don‘t care. 

They‘re not elected.

SCHULTZ:  They‘re the same people in McCain‘s camp, suggested to the president that he should go down this road of a stimulus package.  Another subject here, Michele Bachmann telling the crowd today that this bill would be a permanent bailout.  Jack Rice, what about that? 

RICE:  The fact is, it‘s not government money.  It‘s not the people‘s money.  This is coming from the industry itself.  It‘s amazing to me when Wall Street blows apart, and we all sit back and say, why did this happen?  One of the big reasons is because there was no regulation in place to stop it. 

At some point, if we don‘t turn around and say it‘s too big to fail, it‘s too big—the whole point here is to make sure this doesn‘t happen again.  What the Republicans want to fall back on the same arguments we have heard before, just deregulate everything and trust business.  They‘ll take care of it.  They‘ve done a great job. 

SCHULTZ:  Ron, is this just a Frank Luntz talking point?  Or is this a permanent bailout bill, this bill on Wall Street?  What do you think? 

CHRISTIE:  I have mixed views.  I‘m very concerned about the creation of a Consumer Protection Agency.  I don‘t see the need for that.  I think we can impose good regulations to ensure we have liquidity in the system, and we don‘t have some of the abuses in the past.  I don‘t think increasing the size of the government is necessarily the answer.  And the same thing with the regulator at the Federal Reserve Bank. 

SCHULTZ:  Let‘s talk about Eric Holder, the attorney general.  But first, let‘s play this sound-byte from Senator Chuck Schumer about the KSM trial being here in New York. 

“We know the Obama administration is not going to hold the trial in New York.  They should just say it already.”

What about that, Ron Christie? 

CHRISTIE:  They should just say it already, Ed.  The American people recognize we should not bring Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and some of these very dangerous individuals to New York City.  It‘s a slap in the face to those brave men and women who lost their lives on 9/11.  The administration knows it.  Senator Schumer knows it.  They all know it.  Let‘s move on. 

SCHULTZ:  What do  you think, Jack?

RICE:  It‘s a slap in the face?  What are you talking about?  These guys were criminals.  They should be prosecuted in Lower Manhattan. 

CHRISTIE:  They‘re terrorist, Jack.  They‘re terrorists.  They‘re not criminals.  They‘re terrorists.  They brought down the World Trade Center.  They brought down and millions—billions of dollars of damage.  They killed thousands of people in this country.  They‘re not criminals.

RICE:  You want to hold these guys up as something special, this is exactly what they‘re intending to be.  If we turn around, just like the Rand Corporation suggested, by the way, that if you treat them like common thugs and criminals, you treat them like that on a world-wide basis, the world sees that.  I think, most importantly, if we believe our system of justice is the best in the world—I see conservatives argue that all the time—why don‘t we put it to the test?  

SCHULTZ:  Ron Christie, Jack Rice, great to have you on tonight. 

Thanks very much. 

Coming up, America‘s sheriff, Joe Arpaio, might be getting the green light to stop anybody he wants to in Arizona.  I think this is big government.  I‘ll ask Joe if he sees it the same way.  That‘s next in the playbook.  You‘re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ:  Welcome back.  Arizona is on the verge of enacting the country‘s toughest anti-immigration law.  Police officers are going to be able to stop any person if there is reasonable suspicion they are an illegal immigrant, demand to see ID, and arrest them if they can‘t produce it.  This has the potential to become a state backed terror campaign against an entire group of people in Arizona. 

The man who bills himself America‘s toughest sheriff, Joe Arpaio, is praising the crackdown.  It should be noted his office is currently under federal investigation for racial profiling.  Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio joins us tonight here on THE ED SHOW.  Good to have your time tonight.  Is this necessary?  Do you need this? 

JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF:  I‘ve been enforcing two state laws, anyway, immigration laws, federal and state, arrested 38,000 detained and investigated.  This is one more law that is going to give the cops the authority to arrest someone that‘s here illegally on a misdemeanor charge. 

Also, it will give the government entities—and make sure that they do not have a policy that restricts their officers from enforcing the illegal immigration laws. 

SCHULTZ:  What is—what is reasonable suspicion?  How does a law enforcement official determine that? 

ARPAIO:  You know, I‘m not going to get into all the protocols and criteria.  But in basic law enforcement, when you stop someone, you ask for ID.  You go through certain procedures. 

SCHULTZ:  What constitutes the stop? 

ARPAIO:  A violation of the law, whether it‘s a civil traffic violation, any type of stop. 

SCHULTZ:  You don‘t think this is going to lead to racial profiling? 

ARPAIO:  No.  I‘ve been accused—it took the Obama administration only 60 days in office to go after me, accusing me of racial profiling.  Nothing‘s happened since.  But it‘s interesting, like I‘m the poster boy, everybody‘s going after me, because I‘m enforcing the federal and state laws. 

SCHULTZ:  Do you think you‘re being unfairly targeted? 

ARPAIO:  Yes, I do.  I do. 

SCHULTZ:  Have you ever spoken face to face with the president about this? 

ARPAIO:  I wish he would call me, and we could have a little wine in his backyard. 

SCHULTZ:  President Obama has never reached out to you, or the administration‘s never reached out to you?  You‘re famous nationwide when it comes to crackdowns and going after people breaking the law.  The way you have run Maricopa County, would you like to talk to the president about this? 

ARPAIO:  Of course, I was the regional director in Mexico and Turkey and the Middle East and the borders.  I have a lot of experience with the US Drug Enforcement, with the Justice Department.  It‘s interesting, nobody wants to talk to me about how I operate. 

SCHULTZ:  OK.  Interesting.  We‘ll follow up again on this.  Sheriff, good to have you with us tonight. 

ARPAIO:  Thank you.

SCHULTZ:  Thank you.  One more page in my playbook tonight; during Tiger Wood‘s comeback run at the Masters, commentators largely restrained themselves from criticizing the golfer, even after he lost his cool, screaming, “Tiger, you suck.”

Following some non-family friendly language, well, the restraint ended for CBS‘ Jim Nantz on Monday when he jumped on his high horse and took a swing at Tiger in a radio interview here in New York. 


JIM NANTZ, CBS SPORTS:  If I said what he said on the air, I would be fired.  Someone on my broadcast dismissed it as nothing other than the fact he had a camera in his face.  Guess what, Phil Mickelson had a camera in his face all weekend.  Did you ever hear him come close to approaching that?  He didn‘t hit ever shot exactly the way he wanted. 

Tiger‘s not the only one with a camera in his face all day long, but he is the only one on the field that said he wasn‘t going to do that anymore. 


SCHULTZ:  Tell us what you think, Jim.  Nantz is such a silver spooner  He‘s never liked Tiger.  And everybody in golf knows about the rivalry between Mickelson and Tiger.

A lot of regular people who don‘t belong to elite country clubs head out to municipal courses week after week, day after day in this country.  Guess what, sometimes they swear a little bit.  We‘re human, you know.  I think Jim Nantz took a swipe at a guy in retreat and in counseling, trying to put his life back together.  Jim Nantz, you ought to know your ratings are way off if you don‘t have Tiger playing in tournaments.  But you got your cheap shot in.  Not bad, pretty clever.

Coming up, Bill O‘Reilly has been caught in a bold-faced lie.  Eric Byrnes, president of Media Matters, he‘s looking out for you.  That‘s next on THE ED SHOW.  Stay with us. 


SCHULTZ:  Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.  In our final segment tonight, Bill O‘Reilly really does live in his own crazy right wing bubble.  He made it into The Zone last night for claiming that nobody on Fox News said people would go to jail if they didn‘t buy health insurance.  He said that to Senator Tom Coburn, who had called out Fox for its bias on that issue. 

I‘m not usually on the same side of Senator Coburn, a righty from Oklahoma.  But on this on, I am.  O‘Reilly  was flat out wrong.  And yesterday, we showed you video evidence of that.  It‘s not only liberals like me pointing it out.  How about Neil Cavuto on his own network. 


NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  Something that you and Fox got in a little bit of a brouhaha (ph) about.  I noticed you were with my friend, Bill O‘Reilly, on this very issue.  That is whether you were saying Fox alone incited false information, saying that those who did not buy health insurance were going to be thrown in jails. 

Now, you‘re quite right.  I researched this.  A number of Fox personalities had made that comment. 


SCHULTZ:  Even after someone on his own network refuted his bogus claim, O‘Reilly still stuck with his lie on his show last night, insisting that Coburn was wrong. 


BILL O‘REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  The senator from Oklahoma, if people missed it last night, had criticized Fox News about certain things and didn‘t really have his facts in line. 


SCHULTZ:  No, you wouldn‘t do that, would you, Bill?  Let me bring in Eric Byrnes, Media Matters, with us here on THE ED SHOW tonight.  Does this happen a lot?  Does Fox do this a lot?

ERIC BYRNES, MEDIA MATTERS:  They do it all the time, Ed.  This is actually generally how they do their programming.  In this case alone, with Bill O‘Reilly denying that Fox was wrong, denying that Fox was suggesting that Americans were going to be put in jail for not getting health insurance, which, of course, is a lie.  We looked and found at least 11 different instances on Fox News where a host or one of the contributors said that.  It spread across the breadth of the entire network, from “Fox & Friends” in the morning to Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity in the evening, in prime time, to the website. 

So I think the real take away is not only is the fact that Bill O‘Reilly is lying about the fact that he got caught lying, and I think he‘d rather continue lying to his viewers rather than admit he made a mistake. 

SCHULTZ:  We should be clear here that Senator Coburn didn‘t mention any other news resources.  This came from his town-hall meeting when he was asked by somebody about having to buy health insurance or you‘re going to go to jail.  His answer was, no, that‘s a Fox News thing. 

BYRNES:  That‘s correct.  His justification later was it was a conservative audience that listens to Fox News.  Even he acknowledged, as you saw in the clip, that every news organization has their bias.  I don‘t think this is about bias.  It‘s not about ideology.  It‘s not about a slip of the tongue that often happens with any journalist.  This is about a systematic decision, an intentional and deliberate decision by the executive staff at Fox News to lie to their viewers and to the American people about what was in the health care reform, and they did it to scare them. 

SCHULTZ:  It‘s getting people to believe what they want them to believe.  It‘s not the news in many cases.  A classic example to is Saxby Chambliss, senator from Georgia, goes up in front of a Tea Party crowd and says they‘re going to have to hire 16,500 IRS agents.  That‘s a Fox News bullet point.  It simply is not true.  The head of the IRS says it‘s not true.  Correct me if I am wrong. 

BYRNES:  You‘re absolutely right, Ed.  We saw the same thing with the death panel smears.  We saw the same thing with the right wing media and Fox‘s attempts to lie about whether or not there was federal funding for abortion in the health care bill.  Just in the last 14 months, Media Matters alone, we have released 250 pieces of research documenting lies and smears just on the debate over health care alone.  So there‘s really no way that, in 11 different instances, multiple hosts across the network were all telling the same lie, telling folks that members of their family were going to go to jail if they do not get health insurance, without it being a deliberate and intentional decision. 

I would suggest that‘s not news.  In fact, it‘s antithetical to everything journalism stands for.  It‘s propaganda. 

SCHULTZ:  More Frank Luntz material going to the Republican party on Wall Street reform and legislation.  They‘re now calling it a permanent bailout.  So you should have plenty of tape on that coming up. 

BYRNES:  I‘m sure we will. 

SCHULTZ:  Eric, good to have you with us tonight.  Thanks so much. 

BYRNES:  Thank you, Ed.

SCHULTZ:  Tonight, in our telephone survey, I asked you is the Tea Party legitimate or a fringe group?  Eleven percent say legitimate; 89 percent say crazy fringe.  I‘m an 89 percenter tonight.  That‘s THE ED SHOW.  I‘m Ed Schultz.  For more information on THE ED SHOW, go to, or check out our radio website, 

You can catch my show from Noon to 3:00, Monday through Friday on channel 167 XM.  “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews is next, starts right now.  We‘ll see you back here tomorrow night for THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.  Have a great one.



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