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Msnbc Live at 6 p.m. ET, Friday July 1, 2011

Guests: Bill Press, Pat Buchanan, Ken Martin, Bob Franken, Victoria DeFrancesco Soto, Michael Franc, John Cook

CENK UYGUR, HOST:  Big oil, big banks, big money.  Republicans aren‘t even pretending to root for the little guy anymore. 

Tonight, the GOP is brazen in their efforts to protect the rich.  How long can this party go on before it implodes? 

Minnesota‘s Democratic governor shows the country how you fight back against Republicans.  Do we have a new progressive hero? 

Plus, the case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn falls apart.  Was our system totally unfair to this guy?

And did the idea for Fox News start in the Nixon White House?  We have the amazing report straight from the Nixon Library. 

Welcome to the show, everybody.  I‘m Cenk Uygur.  We‘ve got an awesome show for you tonight. 

Tonight‘s lead: Are the Republicans just giving up pretenses and saying, yes, that‘s it, we‘re the party of the rich?  The Democrats came out and said you guys are for corporate jets, you‘re for oil subsidies, you‘re for the very rich.  And basically, they came out and said, yes.  Look at them defending all those programs right here. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The president is singling out expensive airplanes is not the focus of the issue we are debating here. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You see the most ugly, divisive press conference I think I have ever seen from a president.  He offered no solutions other than let‘s tax rich people. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The idea that we raise taxes, as the president said, on millionaires and billionaires, raise taxes on oil companies, raise taxes on owners of private jets, that that somehow is going to make a difference in America‘s debt in terms of having a real impact is not only misleading, I think, quite frankly, it‘s disappointing.  It‘s class warfare. 


UYGUR:  Oh, I love the way these guys cry about class warfare.  And when President Obama goes out there, why are you hitting us?  No, no, you‘re not supposed to do that. 

Listen, you guys have been doing class warfare for all these years.  You‘ve been redistributing the wealth from the middle class and the poor, all the way up to the rich.  That‘s what‘s been happening.

So, when somebody says, hey, can the rich just pay a little bit of their fair share?  They go, oh, my God, class warfare.  In fact, look at Democratic demands.  They are so simple. 

Can we just tax corporate jets in the same way that we do other planes?  Isn‘t that fair? 

How about oil subsidies?  We can get $40 billion a year from taking away oil subsidies from the most profitable companies in the world.  Why are they getting special privileges? 

Hedge fund managers are getting taxed at 15 percent.  That‘s lower than almost all of you.  Why are these guys not paying their real taxes, which should be 35 percent? 

And then deductions for the rich.  Let me tell you about that one. 


It‘s for people making above $500,000.  Their deductions would go from 35 to 28 percent.  That is miniscule.  It‘s not asking for much.  But even when you do that, the Republicans go, oh, how can you hit the rich like this?  It‘s class warfare. 

But you know what?  The American people agree with the Democrats.  There have been 19 polls this year alone saying, you know what?  The rich need to pay their fair share, let‘s tax the rich. 

In fact, I will give you the specifics.  An NBC/”Wall Street Journal” poll, 81 percent saying tax people making over a million dollars.  OK?  Tax them more.

And then you‘ve got “The New York Times”/CBS, 72 percent for taxing people above $250,000.  “Washington Post”/ABC, same thing, 72 percent.  Four other polls in the same exact area. 

And that last number you see there, that‘s the Gallup poll saying that 59 percent of Americans saying rich are not paying their fair share.  And they are absolutely right.  The banks get bailed out.  All the biggest companies in the world get special subsidies.  They hide their money in off-shore havens. 

Enough is enough. 

And why?  Why do the Republicans go along with this?  Well, that‘s because they get paid by those guys. 

Even the corporate jet people, I mean, that‘s such a tiny, tiny industry.  They‘ve spent $22 million in lobbying since 2004.  That money is getting funneled to the politicians. 

And then, how about the oil and gas lobby?  If you want to see a real lobby, $993 million since 2000 that they have spent on lobbying. 

So that‘s why the Republicans sell out to them.  I get it.  What I don‘t get is why anybody votes for them. 

Look, you‘ve got a corporate jet, God bless your heart.  Go ahead, vote Republican.  That‘s logical. 

You‘re an oil executive?  Oh, they do you the biggest favor in the world.  Vote for them.  I get it. 

But if you‘re an average American, why in the world would you continue to support this party?  And how long can this party go on when they‘ve basically put their flag on the ground and say yes, we represent the richest of the rich and that‘s it? 

All right.  Well, let‘s talk about that. 

Joining me now is MSNBC analyst Pat Buchanan, and Bill Press, host of “The Bill Press Show” on Sirius Radio. 

All right.  Pat, look at this.  I mean, you defended the yacht makers the other day on this show.  How do you run a party like this where you say we‘re for the corporate jets and the big fat-cat oil executives?  That‘s a winning strategy? 

PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC ANALYST:  No.  Here‘s going to be the winning strategy in this whole debt ceiling battle, Cenk. 

I mean, the president can hammer the Republicans.  You know, you‘re in the pocket of the rich and Wall Street and all the rest of it. 

What‘s going to happen in July is this—you‘re going to get up to around July 20th.  The Republican in the House are going to say, we need a debt ceiling.  That‘s responsible.  We need to raise it. 

They‘re going to raise that.  They‘re going to attach to it all of the Biden cuts from the Senate that have been agreed to.  You‘re not going to have a single tax increase in there. 

They are going to send it over to the United States Senate.  And Barack Obama is going to sign it. 

And what we saw yesterday, on Barack Obama‘s part, all that frustration, you know, Malia and Sasha, they don‘t do all-nighters, all the rest of it, that suggests to me that Barack Obama knows he is over a barrel right now. 

UYGUR:  Yes.  I don‘t see that at all. 

Look, if what you say is true, Pat, it is an absolute unmitigated disaster for the Democrats, if they get absolutely nothing out of this.  If the president agrees to that, that would be unbelievable. 


BUCHANAN:  Let me follow up, Cenk, quickly. 

BILL PRESS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  No, no, no.  Come on, Pat.  You don‘t have a monopoly here.

BUCHANAN:  No.  Cenk, if the president didn‘t sign it and he puts the country into default—

UYGUR:  No, no, no.  The Republicans put the country into default. 

You can‘t get away with that. 

If you say I will compromise nothing, I will make no negotiations, and then it‘s the president‘s fault for going into default?  You‘re crazy. 

Bill, let me give you one fact here as we talk about this. 

Do you know that if we go into default and our interest rates just go up one percent, it adds $1.3 trillion to our deficit.  It makes our deficit so much worse.  Now, if the Republicans cared about the deficit, wouldn‘t they say, under no circumstances are we going to default? 

PRESS:  Well, look, it just depends.  They care about the deficit when the Democrats are in, not when the Republicans are in. 

The Republican majority, as you know and you‘ve pointed out on this show, voted seven times without—no strings attached when George W. Bush was in the White House to raise the debt ceiling.  So, look, they are playing politics.  We know it.

But I just want to get some facts on the table.  Right?

Everybody agrees we‘ve got this huge budget problem.  Everybody agrees we are going to now, because Republicans have demanded it, we are going to cut $2 trillion as the price for getting a debt ceiling raised. 

Democrats have agreed to $1.6 billion in program cuts, right?  They are looking for $400 billion.  Not in new taxes, $400 billion in getting rid of tax subsidies like the ones to the corporate jets that we no longer need and can no longer afford.  And Republicans are standing up and defending those. 

So, Cenk, notice one thing.  They don‘t defend those corporate debt taxes.  You haven‘t heard anybody defend them.  They just attack Obama for suggesting that that‘s not fair. 

Why isn‘t it fair, Pat?  That‘s what I want to know.


BUCHANAN:  Cenk,  let me respond.  Let me respond to Bill.

UYGUR:  Pat, hold on.  I‘ve got a specific question for you.  You can respond to all of us.  OK?

Do you love Ronald Reagan? 

BUCHANAN:  Oh, Ronald Reagan is a terrific fellow.  And I was there when—I went into his White House and he told me what a mistake he had made when he raised taxes in 1982. 

UYGUR:  Forget 1982.  Do you know Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times? 

PRESS:  Eleven times.

UYGUR:  And not just that.  Hold on, Pat.  Not just that. 

When he did deficit reduction deals, which he did, he actually put $190 billion worth of revenue increases into those deals. 

PRESS:  Yes. 

UYGUR:  So shouldn‘t you do just like Reagan and actually put revenue increases into your deficit reduction deals? 

PRESS:  Have to. 

BUCHANAN:  No, here is what we should do --  


BUCHANAN:  -- just what Bill is talking about.  I say no.  Here is what Bill is talking about. 

He is correct, they‘ve got $1.6 trillion in cuts to which the Democrats agreed.  Now, if the Republicans, Boehner says, were passing the debt ceiling for one full year for the president, we are going to avoid a default, and we are attaching those $1.6 trillion in cuts that Biden and the Democrats agreed to, and we agreed to, and they send it down to the president, he‘s going to veto it and put the United States of America into default?  Come on!


UYGUR:  Bill, I want to clarify this.  Pat Buchanan just said he disagrees with Ronald Reagan and would do the opposite of Ronald Reagan.  OK.  I just wanted to establish that. 

Now, Bill, look, I know why the Republicans are going down the road. 

Let‘s talk about the politics of it, right? 

So, their chief of staffs are literally straight from K Street.  We did this story yesterday.

Marco Rubio and Ron Johnson hired guys from Navigators Global.  They‘re literally K Street lobbyists.  The guy Mike Pompeo, a congressman, his chief of staff is a Koch Industries lawyer. 

These guys are bought and paid for.  I get it.  Right?

But at this point, shouldn‘t the Democrats be blowing these guys out of the water?  Sitting there defending oil subsidies, et cetera, in bed with the lobbyists? 

PRESS:  But Cenk, here‘s the point.  I think the reason you heard so much whining yesterday—I loved it, right?  The Republican says, no, we are not like Sasha and Malia.  And to prove they‘re not children, they went out and threw a temper tantrum yesterday. 

You know why?  The reason is because Obama called them out.  He exposed them for who they really stand for and who they really are. 

That‘s why they are screaming bloody murder today.  He showed the list that you showed.  I mean, he forced them to defend the corporate jets, the oil companies, the hedge fund managers, and the millionaires and the billionaires in this country, in addition to trying to kill Medicaid. 


BUCHANAN:  Let‘s agree—let‘s agree that President Obama just did a magnificent performance yesterday.  OK?  But that still does not get back to this fundamental point that the Republicans have the whip hand here.  And when they take those—

PRESS:  No they don‘t.

UYGUR:  That‘s nonsense. 

BUCHANAN:  Hold on.  Then, look, if they are the ones that passed the bill with the debt ceiling on there, and raised that, and $1.6 trillion, why aren‘t they going for higher taxes?  They pledged in November that they would not do it.  They don‘t believe in that. 

And Bill Clinton says don‘t do it.  Bill Clinton says don‘t do it.

PRESS:  They‘re not going for higher taxes.  Lincoln said, you can call a pig a goat.  That doesn‘t make it a goat. 

They are not higher taxes.  These are tax giveaways. 


PRESS:  Pat, wait a minute.

BUCHANAN:  If they‘re tax giveaways, Bill, you‘re not going to get them. 

PRESS:  These are tax giveaways to oil companies, to corporate jets, to the hedge fund managers --  

BUCHANAN:  Call it what you want.  You‘re not going to get them. 

PRESS:  -- that we can no longer afford.


UYGUR:  Pat, look, you say the Republicans have the advantage. 


UYGUR:  By the way, I‘m not sure what you call it.  And they are obviously giveaways to the oil companies, corporate jets, et cetera.  But let‘s put that aside for a second.

You say Republicans have the advantage.  But what if we don‘t raise the debt ceiling, but we don‘t go into default?  Money comes into the treasury all the time.  We use it to pay our debt, so there is no default. 

And then the president goes, OK, now I have the biggest line veto in the history of mankind.  I will only fund the programs that we are in favor of.  You Republicans will get nothing from now on. 

Then who‘s got the advantage? 

BUCHANAN:  Well, you‘re tell me that president of the United States—look, if the president of the United States—you‘re right.  The president of the United States would have to start chopping spending and programs like that.  What are the big ones?  Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, unemployment insurance. 

UYGUR:  Every single Republican program is gone. 

BUCHANAN:  And the two wars.  And the two wars. 


PRESS:  Pat, wait.  We know.

The president‘s got the last word.  The president has the advantage. 

BUCHANAN:  And he will sign it.

PRESS:  He showed it yesterday.  He is not going to accept a deal that doesn‘t include some revenue—


BUCHANAN:  He doesn‘t have the cojones and you know it.

PRESS:  Oh, you watch, Pat.


PRESS:  He‘ll shut down the government if necessary.  And the Republicans will get blamed for it just like Newt Gingrich got blamed for it. 

BUCHANAN:  And he‘ll shot it down?  OK.

UYGUR:  All right.  Well—


UYGUR:  All right.  Let me summarize now.  We‘re out of time.  Let me summarize.

Pat Buchanan challenging the president.  Let‘s see what happens.  Pat Buchanan also saying Ronald Reagan was so wrong.  What an interesting segment we had. 

BUCHANAN:  He‘s the greatest guy in the world.  He made mistakes, Cenk. 

UYGUR:  Pat Buchanan and Bill Press, host of “The Bill Press Show.” 

You guys are great. 

PRESS:  All right, Cenk.

UYGUR:  Thank you. 

PRESS:  Thank you, guys.

UYGUR:  All right.

BUCHANAN:  Good luck, Cenk.

UYGUR:  Thank you.

When we come back, we‘ve got a fight in Minnesota.  Of course the Republicans are supporting the rich as usual.  But guess what?  This time we‘ve got a Democrat fighting back. 

Do we have a new progressive hero? 

(singing):  I‘m looking for a hero! 

Oh, my God.  No more singing. 

And Bill Clinton has a message for Obama—fight.  His strong words, we‘ll show you them in a minute. 

Plus, was Fox News born in the Nixon White House?  There‘s an amazing story of how Roger Ailes hatched the idea of a Republican TV propaganda outfit right when he worked for Nixon. 

All that, coming up. 


UYGUR:  Well, today we had a government shutdown in Minnesota.  Another budget battle that went down the wire.  But this time, the Democratic governor, Mark Dayton, said end of this.  I‘m not putting up with your nonsense anymore.  I know you want the tax breaks for the rich, but I‘m not going to have it. 

In fact, let‘s hear from the man himself.  Here he is. 


GOV. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA:  That is not why the people of Minnesota elected me their governor, so that millionaires could continue to avoid paying their fair share of taxes for the benefit of everyone else in our state.  Some of them are my friends, too.  However, unlike the Republican legislator, I believe in putting the people of Minnesota first. 


UYGUR:  Booyah!  All right.  Now we‘re having a conversation. 

And you know the rich that they are protecting, the Republicans in Minnesota, they‘re .03 percent of the population.  That‘s who this would effect. 

It‘s 7,700 people out of 5.3 million people.  But the Republicans are willing to go to the mat for them anyway, because that‘s their job, to protect the rich. 

By the way, one other part of this, of course they wanted additional elements to this that had nothing to do with the budget.  For example, well, they wanted a long-term 15 percent cut in the number of state employees, because they‘ve always got to hit the employees.  They‘ve got to cause bigger unemployment.  They‘ve got to hit the unions, right?

And then they had a requirement that voters show photo identification when voting.  Why?  Because they want to limit the number of votes because they don‘t want people voting.  They are afraid they will vote Democrat. 

And, by the way, of course, abortion restrictions.  What does that have anything to do with the budget?  So, Governor Dayton said, no, not going to do it.  OK?

And when he said that, guess what?  It worked because the people of Minnesota are behind him. 

Now, we‘re going to see how it winds up in the end, but look at will polls for now.  When asked, should we do a mix of tax hikes and spending restrictions—which is what, of course, Governor Dayton wants -- 63 percent say yes, only 27 percent say that it should be only through spending cuts.  They are totally wrong, the Republicans, on this one. 

By the way, how is it working out for Mark Dayton?  Well, it turns out, if you fight, it‘s fantastic, because he barely won the election—and you see it there -- 43.6 to 43.2, just by .4.  But now, if the election was held again, we would win 48-36. 

Guess what?  Fighting back works. 

So we‘ll see how, of course, the budget works out in Minnesota.  But I love that we‘ve got a real fighter in that Democratic governor there. 

All right.  Now, let‘s bring in from St. Paul, Minnesota, Ken Martin. 

He‘s the chair of the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party.

Great to have you here tonight. 

First of all, give me a context of how the negotiations went before it got to this point. 

KEN MARTIN, CHAIR, MINNESOTA DFL PARTY:  Well, thanks so much for having me on.  And happy Fourth of July weekend to you and all of your viewers. 

I wish I could say the same to folks here in Minnesota.  But the fact is, is that, here in Minnesota, all of our parks are closed and vital services are shuttered over the course of this weekend and for the coming weeks and months, unfortunately, thanks to Republicans and their incessant desire to protect the richest Minnesotans. 

We‘re at a fundamental debate here in this state.  And the debate is over how best to solve this budget deficit which Governor Tim Pawlenty left to us here in Minnesota.

The fact is, as Governor Dayton proposed, that we do did in a fair, balanced and responsible way.  That way would be making reasonable cuts, cuts in government that are responsible, while, at the same time, increasing revenue in this state. 

And, in fact, the last eight years, the reckless policies of Tim Pawlenty are what got us into this mess in the first place, and there is no doubt that we need revenues in this state.  And what the governor said is, we don‘t want to just raise taxes willy-nilly.  We understand it‘s a tough time, the economy is not so great, and we need to be mindful of the fact that people are hurting out there.

So what he‘s asked is for the richest Minnesotans, millionaires, people making over a million dollars a year, to pay a little bit more, to keep the lights on and to make this state great, and to make this state work again.  And the Republicans refused.  They decided that they wanted to protect .03 percent of Minnesotans at the expense of the rest of the 99.7 percent of Minnesotans, and that‘s wrong. 

UYGUR:  All right.  Now, I want to talk about what the next step is. 


So, of course, this has consequences, as you talked about.  We have got furloughs for around 23,000 state employees.  That hurts a lot.  You‘ve got state parks closed.  Obviously, we have got the busy stretch with the Fourth of July coming around.  It stops child care assistance for the poor, et cetera. 

Now, of course, at this point, people are going to look around and go, whose fault is this?  Right?

And Governor Dayton has told the Republicans, go have your meetings. 

Go to your town halls.  See what you get.  Right?  Which is a strong move. 

How do you think it resolves itself now as we take it to the people of Minnesota? 

MARTIN:  Well, look, I think the governor and other Democrats know that‘s it‘s going to be a pox on both houses.  But Minnesotans are standing with the governor.  They know—they believe—a vast majority of Minnesotans believe that his proposal is the best proposal, it‘s the responsible way out of this mess.  And by asking the richest Minnesotans just to did a little bit more, we could solve this mess that we‘re in.

I think that in the coming days and weeks, just like the last six months, the only one that‘s shown a willingness to compromise, to reach across the aisle and actually move off of their original position is the governor.  Look, he‘s moved a mile.  The Republicans haven‘t moved an inch in this debate. 

All to protect the richest Minnesotans.  And that‘s unfortunate, because the rest of us, the rest of the 99.7 percent of Minnesotans, have to go through this miserable experience thanks to the Republicans‘ choices. 

UYGUR:  Right.  Well, at some point you‘ve got to draw the line. 

That‘s what he did. 

By the way, referencing his poll numbers, it‘s 51-38 in his favor.  And that was back in May.  I suspect they‘ll get even higher if we‘re right and if the rest of the polls are right that we have shown you.  Right? 

But one thing about who caused this mess, you mentioned Tim Pawlenty.  He actually had the nerve to come back in here and talk about taxes, et cetera. 

Let‘s go to that first clip. 


TIM PAWLENTY ®, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Both in ‘05 and now, you had Democrats demanding that we raise taxes and raise spending.  And that‘s not what the people in this country need.  It‘s not what our government finances need.  We have to get government spending under control. 


UYGUR:  I mean, get a load of the nerve of this guy.  He was the previous governor of Minnesota.  And he‘s the one that left this $5 billion mess in the first place. 

MARTIN:  Well, it‘s just the height of hypocrisy.  It‘s like a guy running through a crowded theater yelling, “Fire!  Fire!”  And, in fact, he is the one who set the place on fire to begin with. 

He borrowed money from future school payments that were supposed to be made here in Minnesota.  He raided every single pot he could.  He used every gimmick in his toolbox to make sure that he could balance the budget. 

But essentially what he did is kicked those tough decisions down the road through this governor, Governor Dayton, and future legislative leaders.  And that‘s just wrong. 

And now here he goes around the state and around the country trying to reinvent himself and to make it appear that he has some great fiscal advice and budgetary advice that he can offer up to this country.  The fact is, the last person we should be taking budgetary advice from is Governor Tim Pawlenty, because he created the largest budget deficit in our state‘s history, and now here we are having to deal with the mess that he created.

UYGUR:  All right.  Ken Martin, chair of the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party, coming on strong tonight.

Thank you for your time. 

MARTIN:  Thank you. 

UYGUR:  All right.

Now, when we come back, John Cornyn just hammered President Obama for fund-raising.  You want to guess what he has been doing all week?  Well, that‘s our “Con Job.”  These guys are unbelievable. 

And Dominique Strauss-Kahn is now a free man.  Was he guilty until proven innocent  Well, there might have been a great injustice here, but we‘ll talk about it. 


UYGUR:  The Republicans‘ efforts to criticize President Obama for fund-raising while they do nonstop fund-raising of their own is our “Con Job of the Day.”

Texas Senator John Cornyn went after President Obama on the Senate floor yesterday, saying he‘s more focused on raising cash for 2012 than the fight over the debt limit. 


SEN. JOHN CORNYN ®, TEXAS:  I respect the office of the president of the United States, but I think the president has diminished that office and himself by giving the kind of campaign speeches that he gave yesterday.  I wonder if he‘s going to cancel his fundraiser in Philadelphia tonight to meet with Senator McConnell and Speaker Boehner to try to work on this threat. 


UYGUR:  The world‘s largest hypocrite, as we are about to show you. 

But, first of all, look, you Republicans are the ones that walked out on the budget negotiations in the first place.  Why don‘t you get your ass back in the meetings, then you can say something about where the president is spending his time.  You walked out, not him. 

Second, you want to guess what Cornyn has been doing all week?  Well, with all that talk, Senator Cornyn must be working nonstop to get an agreement on the debt issue, right?  Of course not. 

“The Huffington Post” reports Cornyn took a break Wednesday night to host a Republican Senate council fund-raiser.  Now, wait a minute.  I thought he said that fund-raising at this critical juncture was a terrible thing to do. 

By the way, he was there in his role as chair of the National Senate Republican Committee, the official group that raises cash for GOP senators. 

But, besides that fund-raiser, Cornyn must have been working overtime on the budget, right?  Well, not last night either. 

Cornyn was holding a fund-raiser for Nevada senator Dean Heller.  But it‘s got to be an atypical week for him.  I mean, he‘s real busy with fund-raisers this week, but not last week.  Right?  Maybe not.  Cornyn also co-hosted a fund-raiser last Wednesday for Wisconsin Ron Johnson. 

All Cornyn does is raise money.  And he was the one that called out Obama for doing just that for their side. 

Look, these guys aren‘t just hypocritical, they pretend to be outraged if Democrats do not always do unilateral disarmament.  They say, oh, we get to raise money, how dare you raise money?  Yes, we‘re on the other side, that‘s what we are supposed to do.  That‘s what the Democrats should tell them, forcefully.  Now, look, if you ask me, of course politicians on both sides fund raise all the time.  I wish they didn‘t.  I wish we had a different system but for Senator Cornyn to call out President Obama for raising money when his own calendar is filled with fund-raisers is easily our con job of the day. 

All right.  And when we come back, FOX News apparently was hatched in a secret plan inside the Nixon White House.  The amazing details of that. 

And Bill Clinton has advice for the White House.  Stand up.  I like that kind of advice.  We‘re going to talk about that when we come back. 


UYGUR:  Welcome back to the show everybody.  Now, we‘re going to discuss some of the biggest political stories in the day with our power, power, Power Panel.  Joining me now King Features, syndicated columnist Bob Franken.  Also with us, Victoria DeFrancesco Soto, she‘s an assistant professor of Political Science in Northwestern University, a lovely institution.  And Michael Franc, Vice President of the Government Studies for the Heritage Foundation.  I will referring from comment on that institution.  All right.


All right.  First question.

MICHAEL FRANC, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION:  Start refraining from comments about.

UYGUR:  All right.  Let‘s get started.  First question.  Guilty until proven innocent.  Dominique Strauss Kahn was lead out to prison today with no bail.  We‘re still holding on to his passport, so he can‘t leave the country.  For prosecutors have significant concerns about the accuser‘s credibility at this point.  And I said yes, prosecutors, not the defense.  Here is a list of things that they are concerned about.  She apparently lied on an asylum application.  Changed a story about a previous rape that she had reported.  Changed the story about the day of incident and lied on tax forms.  And misrepresented income to maintain housing.  That is a long list.  Bob, is it possible by perp walking him, et cetera, that we did a great injustice to this guy? 

BOB FRANKEN, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST:  Well, first of all, you‘ve got to know that the writers at law and order SVU are already working on a script.  It‘s got that show written all over it.  Perhaps they did.  And there is always the large problem that many people discuss, oftentimes prosecutorial zeal where they feel they are going after the bad guy and that some of the constitutional protections are such a tradition are overridden.  But the other half of the equation is, is that for too long women have been victimized in this country and in other countries of course, and so you have units that specialize in trying to protect women who charge that they have been sexually invaded.  So you have a competing interest here and you can sometimes have a tragic situation like we have right now.  

UYGUR:  Right.  And by the way, we shouldn‘t have reached conclusions in the first time.  And when the first story, at the time the story broke, I said that.  We should also not reach conclusions now.  Victoria, all these seems they say about the accuser could be true.  And she still could have been sexually assaulted, right?

VICTORIA DEFRANCESCO SOTO, NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY:  That‘s right.  And this is one of the casualties that what happens in this media age where cases are unfolding in full media light.  It doesn‘t allow for us to be contemplative.  And what a legal system does here and anywhere else in the world is you need contemplation.  And what Bob was referring to earlier is that we are also in the U.S. in a very particular racial context where we can be very sensitive because in the past, because of our racial legacies, minority women, many times were taken advantage of by white men, so we are hypersensitive to this.  And we saw this with the Duke Lacrosse case, where guilty until proven innocent.  And let‘s not forget, this is also coming in the context of Weiner Gate and Arnold Schwarzenegger.  So, the public opinion has just been very hypersensitive to this topic.  

UYGUR:  But Michael, I think what a lot of the French have an issue with, and we have based that on the polls, et cetera, that they say, hey, you shouldn‘t have perp walked the guy.  You shouldn‘t have assumed that he was basically guilty and showing him in handcuffs et cetera when he hadn‘t even had the trial yet.  Is that fair thing to say?

FRANC:  I think it is.  Because in some ways, this, you know, the defendant is from central casting for you know, the obnoxious overbearing powerful white male who‘s going to take advantage of a woman.  And it kind of lent itself to that.  And unfortunately, the prosecutors fell victim to that temptation.  So, what you said earlier I think is what makes the most sense.  Is that all of this could be true.  He could have done everything that she alleged.  And she could have lied and done all these other things previously which doesn‘t make it much different if he did what he did.  But this is the kind of case where a woman‘s reputation and her whole life is drawn, pulled through the mud.  Anything that she ever did is going to be brought out and tried to create a sense of doubt on the part after potential jury.  And these are horrible cases to either try or to defend for that very reason and the sensitivities are probably greater here than almost any of the kind of litigation.  

UYGUR:  Right.  It is a very tough situation.  Because look, his defense lawyers are going to go after her a hundred percent.  And that doesn‘t mean that she lied about this instance at all.  So, we‘re going to have to see how it goes.  But if he is vindicated, he might actually run for president in France and it might actually give him a leg up.  And saying oh, look at how the U.S. prosecuted me, et cetera. 

So, that goes but I got to go to the next question.  Now, should Obama listen to Bubba on negotiating with Republicans?  He was talking to political capital with Al Hunt was on that program and here‘s what he said.  


BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT:  The Republicans.  They think they got the president and Democrats over barrel because they say, we won‘t raise the debt ceiling unless you do exactly what we want.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  They do, don‘t they?

CLINTON:  Not.  Depends on whether or not we stand up to them.  


UYGUR:  So, Bob that seems pretty right, right?  I mean, Bill Clinton stood up to them and he got a major victory out of it.  

FRANKEN:  Well, let‘s paint a more complete picture.  Bill Clinton was often time ostracized by his own party for compromising too much with the Republicans.  Well for reform being a case in point.  So, he as much as anybody, knows that this can be very difficult sometimes if you are going to be a leaders opposed to a campaigner.  Now however, you have Barack Obama who is also known as somebody has been accused too many times by his own constituency of being too timid.  And so, his news conference the other day was an effort to try and counter that and to say to the Republicans no more Mr. Nice guy.  It is time to get out there and mix it up a little bit.  

UYGUR:  Michael, politically speaking, the Democrats have to gain from exhibiting some sort of spine, don‘t they?  Shouldn‘t they fight the Republicans?

FRANC:  Well, each party is playing to its base right now.  And that‘s the kind of thing that creates, you know, excuse the expression, a Mexican standoff in a way.  Because a lot of Democrats who want a clean debt ceiling increase with no spending cuts whatsoever. 

UYGUR:  But Michael, that‘s—let‘s keep it real though.  Michael, we got to keep it real.  Because they have apparently already agreed to $1.6 trillion in spending cuts.  So, it‘s not like Democrats are playing their base.  They are almost spitting in the base‘s eye and even that wasn‘t good enough for the Republicans.  

FRANC:  Some people in the back room may have agreed to that.  But go to the rank and file and a lot of Democrats are saying, they don‘t want to be voting for anything with any major spending cuts.  They just want a clean debt ceiling increase.  Over a hundred house Democrats signed that letter over a month ago.  And on the republican side, a lot of Republicans don‘t want to increase the debt ceiling at all.  So, you do have that dynamic where each side leaders may come out of back room with a deal that they think they can sustain and find out that the troops aren‘t going to follow their lead.  

UYGUR:  But right now all the Democrats have done is giving—and Republicans haven‘t given an inch at all.  And by the way, speaking to your point, Victoria, isn‘t he right that when Bush was president we had seven clean debt ceiling raises.  No political issue.  No spending cuts.  Nothing.  Seven easy votes all the Republicans voted for. 

SOTO:  Well, you know, and now Obama is feeling the brunt of it.  So you know, in picking up on this Mexican standoff, we sought earlier this year where there could have been a shut down.  And you saw the Republicans backed away right away.  Said oh, no, we‘re not going to do this.  So, we are engage in this dance, where Republicans are not going to cede anything.  And Obama keeps getting framed as not doing enough.  You know, and I think this is going to be something that going into the campaign season, Obama‘s going to have to step it up.  Not necessarily get mean or get tough but he is going to have to keep the pressure on. 

UYGUR:  Yes, well, are you kidding me?  I would take tough in a second.  I wish he would get there. 

Let me give you one more quote about from Clinton which I think was interesting.  I think it‘s crazy for us to be talking about doing this right now.  I don‘t think it‘s healthy to have big tax cuts or big tax increases or big spending cuts right now.  We need to put America back to work first.  You know, Bob, that‘s a really interesting point.  Here‘s Bill Clinton who actually was the only president to balance the budget in forever and how many decades, right?  And he says this is not the right time to be doing spending cuts at all.  We should be waiting a couple years.  Is that a fair point?

FRANKEN:  Well, it is probably a strong argument.  It is the one that President Obama is making.  Let us not forget that Bill Clinton also benefited from the technology bubble which contributed massive amounts to a budget and that ultimately that bubble burst which led to the troubles we are in right now.  That plus some really bad decisions by the business community and the non-regulators.  But what I‘m really looking forward to here, as a reporter only, I‘m not saying this is good for the country.  But as a reporter, I would love to see the 14th amendment option, which is that the president using the 14th amendment to the constitution which says the validity of the public debt of the United States authorized by law, dot, dot, dot, shall not be questioned.  Decides that he just cannot come to a deal with the Republicans and uses the constitution as his argument for just unilaterally raising the debt ceiling.  That be a great story.  

UYGUR:  Michael, real quick, are you against the United States constitution?  Look at what he just read to you.  

FRANC:  Well, look, when you go back—on Clinton, under his watch, the economy really grew in the second portion of his eight years.  And a lot had to do with the deal he struck in the Spring in 1997, that was signed about June of ‘97 that cut the cap gains tax and cut a lot of business taxes as well as a lot of spending.  And he did that in a bipartisan way, got a lot heat for it.  And he was after that, that you know, the tech boom and other things took off and people started realizing the cap gains and the revenues went up.  

UYGUR:  All right.  Listen, I‘m going to give you the last word on that one.  I will go on to the last question here.  Romney, liar, liar, pants on fire?  Just asking.  All right.  Now, Romney said, hey, look, I never said that this guy made the economy worse, referring to President Obama.  In fact, we have that clip for you, and then what he actually said.  Let‘s watch.  


MITT ROMNEY, FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR:  I didn‘t say that things are worse.  What I said was, that the economy hasn‘t turned around. 

The economy with was in recession.  And he made it worse. 

He didn‘t create the recession, but he made it worse. 

He did not cause this recession, but he made it worse. 


UYGUR:  Victoria, that seems pretty damning, doesn‘t it?  

SOTO:  You know, we‘re going to see here his primary co-host are going to take the flip-flopper term that they had for Kerry pile that on Romney, and then we‘ve got Obama-care that they say was preceded by Romney-care.  I mean, he is in the lead.  But I think stuff like this keeps damaging his chances.  And, you know, and saying these things is like he is leapfrogging the primary, and saying, I have got the lead, I don‘t need to worry about my fellow Republicans.  I‘m going to get into it with the general.  So, I‘m talking to the general public here.  I don‘t want to bash Obama too much.  But you can‘t compete in the general if you don‘t get out of the primary.  

UYGUR:  Yes.  It‘s a good point.  Bob, last word on this.  

FRANKEN:  Well, I mean, the idea that Mitt Romney is back tracking.  I mean, the Casablanca reaction.  I‘m shocked, shocked. 


UYGUR:  All right.  It‘s a great last word.  All right.  Great panel, everybody.  Thank you so much for joining us.  Have a great 4th of July weekend.  

All right.  Now, when we come back, Roger Ailes apparently had plan for basically FOX News, mapped out all the way back in the Nixon administration.  The amazing details of that story coming straight out of Nixon library.  We will have that for you when we come back. 


UYGUR:  The Republicans are always crying when Obama ever hits them.  And that just happens.  They‘re like, oh, why is he doing that?  Why is he criticizing us?  Wait until they get a load of what I do to them.  That‘s coming up too.


UYGUR:  Roger Ailes currently runs FOX News Channel.  But did you know that in 1978, he worked 1970 -- he worked as a media strategist for Richard Nixon?  Well, Gawker did know that, so they went to the Nixon library and they uncovered a 300 page document that showed a blueprint for basically building a republican TV network, it was called, quote, “a plan for putting the GOP on TV news.”  And it had Rogers Ailes handwriting literally all over it as you‘re seeing right there.  That‘s, you know, his handwriting.  And eventually put in charge of this project.  Well, one of the things that he said in this memo was that it is a good idea to do a television station like this because quote, “the reason people are lazy with television you just sit, watch, listen.  And the thinking is done for you.”  And he didn‘t get a chance to really get that off the ground back in 1970s.  But a quarter century later, all of a sudden, in 1996, here was the first day of FOX News Channel. 


UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  Bob Dole finally squared off in their first presidential debate and Bob Dole proved that he has a better vision for the future of America.  He‘s going to give you back more of your money.  


UYGUR:  Shocking that FOX News started that way.  And then back in 2000, the most critical thing of all, they selected John Ellis, who is a cousin of George W. Bush to be the head of their quote unquote, “decision task” during election.  And low and behold, well, look at what FOX News declared first among all the networks.  Watch. 


UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  FOX News predicts George W. Bush, winner in Florida and thus appears the winner of the presidency of the United States.  


UYGUR:  They were the first network to call it.  Bush‘s cousin called the election.  Then all other networks came afterwards.  Even though it was a statistical tie, all of a sudden, George W. Bush became the president of the United States even though he did not win the popular vote and when they recounting Florida, he didn‘t win the electoral vote either.  But FOX News did a mission accomplish right there and ever since they have been doing the same kind of stuff.  Watch.  


SEAN HANNITY, HOST, “HANNITY”:  End of capitalism as we know it.  

That‘s socialism to me.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  Obama is a socialist.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  Many Americans believe that President Obama is a socialist.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  Barack Obama a socialist.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  Sounds like a Marxist or a socialist.  


UYGUR:  All right.  With me now, John Cook, staff writer for Gawker, he uncovered all the amazing Nixon era files.  Great job in finding this, John.  You must have been excited when you found this.  Oh, my God, they had the plan all along.  So, tell me what the original plan was?  It wasn‘t to start FOX News Channel, was to do what with the media.

JOHN COOK, GAWKER.COM:  Well, what they wanted to do, they saw the network, the national networks as the enemy and they wanted to try to get the GOP viewpoint around them.  So, they realized that a huge—you know I think, it‘s 57 percent of Americans at the time got their news from local news.  Local stations across the country.  So, they said, look, why don‘t we create news content, interviews with republican lawmakers, and governors, et cetera?  And then send that news content directly to the local stations.  And that‘s—we will never get our point of view, according to them, across over the networks.  But we can just take it directly to the local stations.  

UYGUR:  Well, the idea was to circumvent the network‘s decision and give them propaganda, basically.  Republican propaganda.  

COOK:  Exactly.  

UYGUR:  Later Roger Ailes would get involved in the 1970s and trying to do an actual station with nothing but republican propaganda.  But you know, you talk about the dirty tricks in there.  And this is really interesting.  Tell me about how they wanted to use Democrats to get across their ideas.

COOK:  There‘s a memo in the files that, from one of Ailes underlings saying that they‘re going to pull the plug on a program that he was producing, that was going to feature two pro war senators.  Senator Stennis and Senator McClellan, two democratic senators.  And the reason they either pulled the plug is they said, Roger, they don‘t know that they are being duped.  They think that this is a news program.  They don‘t realize that this is a White House-run operation.  And the damage that could be done if they find out is too much for us to bear.  So, they actually tried to sort of recruit these Democrats under kind of a false cover. 

UYGUR:  That‘s awesome.  That‘s awesome.  Because that‘s FOX News 101.  They dupe Democrats that coming on there when they don‘t realize it is republican TV.  And they are like, what?  Oh, I didn‘t know that, right?  So I mean, he really has an unbelievable—you got to give him credit.  And look, not just in, coming up with the strategy which is in a lot of ways brilliant.  But let me give one thing from your own report which is amazing.  You talk about when they—how carefully they manipulated the media.  Ailes writes a memo about, hey, let‘s pick up this kid during a Christmas lighting three.  Don‘t just hold his hand.  Pick him up and press the button together, so that you get equal credit for.  Don‘t let the kids do their credit.  It is amazing.  But you know, what?  We found the old tape of Nixon doing that.  Let‘s show you. 


RICHARD NIXON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT:  Sound great.  So, you put your hand right on here and I will, and we‘ll do it together.  Ready?  Here we go.  Go.  So there you are.  And now, if we will all—if you are still not completely drown, we would like to sing joy. 


UYGUR:  Man, exactly how Karl Rove drew it up for him.  In fact, here‘s what they wrote.  Quote, “this simple gesture will do much to humanize him with all parents.”  It seems like Roger Ailes has been pulling the strings for the last, I don‘t know, how many years.  Last word here, real quick.  

One of the amazing things is that it is like a coach taking his play book from one team to the other.  He is working for Nixon, or for Bush, he advised, look, don‘t play too much golf because the media is going to go after you.  And now he is going after Barack Obama for playing too much golf. 

UYGUR:  Exactly.  All right.  John Cook, we got to go.  We‘ll see you.


UYGUR:  This week President Obama did a press conference where he got a little tough with the Republicans and he said, look, they‘re looking out for the rich which is absolutely true.  And what happens with the Republican afterwards?  All they did was cry about it, watch.  


UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  So, maybe if you just take a valium and come down and come on down and talk to us right, it might be helpful.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  The best way to get an appointment with the president is to set up a tee time.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  Absolutely disgraceful.  He should be ashamed.  

UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  He doesn‘t think it is worth his time to come and talk to us. 


UYGUR:  Oh, please, you guys walked out of the meetings.  And the golf, that was John Boehner‘s idea.  These guys are unbelievable, right?  So, finally Democrats are getting a little tough with him.  Here is Bill Daley, who is a chief of staff, standing up to them a little bit.  


BILL DALEY, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF:  This is not the time to kind of just, fool around anymore but try to get to conclusion on a serious problem for The Nation.  This is not a time to worry about feelings.  This is a time to get results.  


UYGUR:  All right.  Not bad.  Not bad.  But if we had a truly progressive aggressive White House.  Here is how they would handle the negotiations. 


UNIDENTIFIED MAN:  I said, throw down, boy.  You going to do something or just stand there and bleed?


UYGUR:  How awesome would that be?  Of course, that was tombstone. 

And of course, you do that in a political sense, not in a physical sense.  But God, at some point, we have to draw the line and say, hey, you know what?  If you‘re going to cry all day and tell me about, oh, no, but you attacked me.  I know, that‘s because you walked out of the meetings.  That‘s because you only represent the rich.  And if you think that‘s tough, wait until you get a roll load of me.  I‘m coming for you.  I‘m letting the American know, you are not on their side.  You are on the side of corporate jets, you‘re on the side of oil executives and we‘re coming for you.  That would be awesome. 

All right.  Thank you for watching, everybody.  You can always catch me on  And also on  “HARDBALL” is next.  

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.                                                                            


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