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The Ed Show for Wednesday, October 5, 2011

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Guests: George Lewis, Jonathan Alter, Matt Buchanan, Justin Elliott, Laura Flanders, Bruce Hamilton,
Larry Hanley, Matthew Swaye, Larry Berger

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED
SHOW tonight from Lower Manhattan in New York City.

America has lost a technological giant. Steve Jobs is dead at the age
of 56. We will talk about his impact on our lives.

And here in Lower Manhattan, the Wall Street occupation protests

It`s all coming up tonight on THE ED SHOW. Stay with us. Let`s get
to work.

One of the greatest innovators in American technology, the Thomas
Edison of the 21st century, Steve Jobs, has lost his battle to pancreatic
cancer at the age of 56. This man impacted almost every facet of our lives
and changed communication forever in this country. Jobs` impact will be
felt for generations to come -- his life and time. Let`s review it here
tonight on MSNBC.


GEORGE LEWIS, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was the father
of the iPhone, the iPod and the Apple Mac computer -- turning electronic
gadgets into objects of desire.

STEVE JOBS, APPLE CEO: I think if you do something and it turns out
pretty good then you should go do something else wonderful.

LEWIS: As he was fond of saying, "Wait, there`s more."

JOBS: Today, Apple is going to reinvent the phone.

LEWIS: And people did wait -- in long lines for the first iPhones in
2007. Then, three years later, they lined up for the iPad, changing the
way people consume media.

DONNY DEUTSCH, ADVERTISING EXECUTIVE: Design plus function equals the
right lifestyle. And that`s what he filled.

LEWIS: In 1976, Jobs co-founded Apple Computer and within a few years
was worth $100 million. In 1984, he was showing off his new pride and joy,
the Macintosh.

JOBS: And it has turned out insanely great.

LEWIS: As critics hailed the Mac, Jobs was on a losing end of a power
struggle at his company and left Apple a year later. He went into computer
animation acquiring Pixar Studios and striking pay dirt with a string of
hit movies, starting with "Toy Story."

CARTOON CHARACTER: To infinity and beyond.

LEWIS: Jobs came back to Apple in 1996 and began reinventing the Mac,
dressing it up in a variety of colors.

JOBS: They look so good you kind of want to lick them.

LEWIS: Concerns about the health of Steve Jobs began in 2004 when he
underwent surgery for pancreatic cancer. A year later, he spoke about that
during a commencement speech at Stanford University.

JOBS: This was the closest I`ve been to facing death and I hope it`s
the closest I get for a few more decades.

LEWIS: An intensely private man with a quick temper, Jobs kept
reporters at bay, saying his health was nobody`s business.


LEWIS: But Jobs was losing weight, something revealed in these photos
taken in 2007 and 2008. In April 2009, he underwent a liver transplant.
Five months later, back on the job at Apple, he expressed his gratitude.

JOBS: I now have the liver of a mid-20s person who died in a car
crash and was generous enough to donate their organs. And I wouldn`t be
here without such generosity.

LEWIS: On August 24th of this year, he stepped down as Apple`s CEO.

Back in 2005, he offered this bit of advice to the Stanford University

JOBS: Your time is limited, so don`t waste it living someone else`s
life. Don`t let the noise of others` opinions drown out your own inner

LEWIS: Steve Jobs, a man whose own inner voice led him to create some
of the most visionary products of the Internet era. Jobs leaves behind a
wife and four children.

George Lewis, NBC News, Los Angeles.


SCHULTZ: Joining me tonight to talk about the life and impact of
Steve Jobs, two of the best, Jonathan Alter with us tonight, MSNBC
contributor, and also from, Matt Buchanan.

Gentlemen, thanks for being here.

Jonathan, the impact of this man, Steve Jobs, the impact he had on our
lives, what was it?

JONATHAN ALTER, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Incalculable. In computers,
music, film, design, marketing. This was one of the great figures of
American history. It`s hard to understand this when he is a figure of our
time. But he is up there with Henry Ford, Thomas Edison -- one of the
great figures in the whole history of the United States.

SCHULTZ: From a business perspective, he changed our economy in many
respects, and the way people did business.

ALTER: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you can -- we could talk all night
about the way he changed not just the daily lives of Americans, but the way
businesses operate and the way he -- his products contributed to
productivity in this country. And also, to the way they changed our

You know, one of his underappreciated contributions was as a designer,
the look, the feel of the Apple products changed the way we look at the
world. And he actually gave a speech once where he attributed it had to
learning calligraphy. He took a calligraphy class in college he thought
would have no impact at all on his life.

People said, why do you want to take calligraphy? Because he
understood that design and the way things feel and look are at the center
of the way we experience things.

SCHULTZ: Matt, let me ask you -- the younger generation in America
grew up differently than other generations because of Steve Jobs.

MATT BUCHANAN, EDITOR, GIZMODO.COM: Certainly. I mean, he completely
changed the way computers worked, like pretty much every computing device
you use now, from your computer to your phone to the way all of this is
happening now is also because he changed computing. He took computers
which were a bit scary thing for institution and made them for people. And
that was like sort of the fundamental things (INAUDIBLE).

SCHULTZ: This protest here tonight, it was made possible by his
innovation. It was made possible by the very things that, you know, he

BUCHANAN: Yes. Totally. The -- you know, the way that these kind of
things came together, like half the people here have iPhones and they`re
tweeting and they`re talking about what they are doing out here, and this
sort of modern computer, the fact everyone has a computer in their pocket
now, more or less, because of the iPhone from Apple. And that is something
that is going to impact the way we use computers forever, basically.

SCHULTZ: Jonathan Alter, would you take a look at Steve Jobs and the
company Apple, he left the company, he was in the middle of a power
struggle, came back and did his best work.

Where does the company go from here?

ALTER: Oh, I think that he has created a corporate culture that will
survive him. You know, there was a time this summer where this company had
the highest market capitalization of any company in the entire United
States. It passed ExxonMobil.

This is a company that just 20 years ago was flat on its back, badly
managed. They pushed Jobs out. He was fired.

And he said later it was the best thing that ever happened to him
because he started to look at life a little differently. He was able to
come at things from a new angle and he came forward with one with
successful product after another, not just the iPad that I have here. But
the iPhone revolutionized cellular phones. Think about what that has done.

Or think about the things that were possible because of what Jobs and
Bill Gates and obviously a lot of other people that we don`t have to time
to mention in this industry, but there were three or four real pioneers who
changed the world and he was one of them.

SCHULTZ: And may I ask you, Matt, what did he do for education?
Education in America changed wait kids go to school. It changed the way
they prepared it changed the way they learned, didn`t it?

BUCHANAN: For sure, especially with the way Apple`s early focused on
education. But I think what may be more fascinating is the way,
(INAUDIBLE) change education. Hear stories the way schools are using iPads
as new tools and teaching children in new ways when moving from say
textbooks to interactive, like, fully featured learning.

Like, you know, his impact isn`t just today or yesterday. It`s like
what`s going to keep coming from everything he`s done.

SCHULTZ: Matt Buchanan, Jonathan Alter, great to have you with us
tonight. Thanks so much.

We report to you tonight live from Lower Manhattan, where the Wall
Street -- "Occupy Wall Street" protests are taking place. Congress is
starting to react. Union leaders and union organizations across the
country are in full support of what is happening here and across the
country. We`ll talk about that and also we will hear from a millionaire
who says it is time to raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans.

That`s all coming up on THE ED SHOW. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: A lot more coming to you from THE ED SHOW tonight from Lower
Manhattan, where the "Occupy Wall Street" protests were taking place. I
was with the protesters today. We`ll define their mission, who they are
and what they really want. We`ll visit with Laura Flanders.

Stay with us with. Commentary coming up here on THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW and thanks for watching tonight,
live from Wall Street. The "Occupy Wall Street" movement is about to reach
critical mass and the Republicans can`t do anything to stop it. An
estimated 30,000 protesters joined this protest movement today. Big labor
is now officially on board. Some Democrats in Congress are getting on

I was with the people as they marched this afternoon. Here`s what I


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The priorities of government, both on a state
level and in Washington are absolutely upside down and against what working
families need. The government is no longer for working people. The
government is for the wealthiest people in this country and that has to end
and that`s what these protests are about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have nurses here who every day in their
hospitals at the bedside are encountering patients who are destitute, who
have to choose between medicine and food, who have to choose between
medicine and paying the rent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not about a party. This is about a
movement to take it back to the people. Give us something.

You know, we are supposed to be the middle class. I don`t feel middle

SCHULTZ: Why are you here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why am I here? My husband was out of work 18
months. Bank of America tried to foreclose on our house, we never missed a
payment. We battled with them for 18 months. We had to start our own
green jobs company to find jobs.

SCHULTZ: So this is about job?


SCHULTZ: This is about change in America?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is about jobs for the middle class, working
people. We have to bring back jobs for the middle class and get the
college kids back to work. We are all in this together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are taking over our lives, everything they do
is sucking money out of the middle class. It`s sucking money. They are
not going to give up until there is nothing left to suck out anymore.

SCHULTZ: Is this America`s middle class march?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You bet it is. It`s about all of us prospering
together. When the distribution of wealth in this country was more even,
everybody made out better. When it got skewed up to the higher levels, all
of us suffered. We are in it together or we`re not in it at all.


SCHULTZ: There is no doubt the Republican Party is afraid of the 99
percent message and now they are attacking the protesters.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: When I was 10 years old, I was
more self-sufficient than this parade of human debris calling itself
"Occupy Wall Street."

your show, and it was picked up all over the place, a lot of them are down
there for dating purposes. It`s true. They are down there to meet people.

HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don`t have facts to back
this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and
orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama

Don`t blame Wall Street. Don`t blame the big banks. If you don`t
have a job and you are not rich, blame yourself.

myself to occupy the White House.


SCHULTZ: The more outrageous the right-wing talks about this protests
and the protests that are taking place across the country, the more of a
impact these people are going to have. The vast unknown about all of this
is what does it mean and where does it go? Will the Obama administration
and the Obama campaign be able to turn this energy into votes next
November? Are they even satisfied with President Obama?

You have a Congress right now with an 11 percent approval rating. I
think you can start with the other 89 percent right here in Lower
Manhattan. They are frustrated about no action on jobs.

They are frustrated about not a very good health care bill. They are
frustrated about jobs going overseas. They are frustrated and very angry
about who is gaining in this economy and who`s being left behind.

This is the official start of the 2012 campaign. If their message is
heard by some candidate, this just might be the movement that starts a
major change in this country.

Get your cell phones out, I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question: do you support the "Occupy Wall Street" protests? Text A for
yes, text B for no to 622639. We`ll bring you the results later on in the

Joining me right now is Justin Elliott, reporter for, and
Laura Flanders, host of Free Speech TV.

Great to have both of you with us tonight.

Justin, the definition of this protest is starting to really take
shape. You`re reporting to America tonight. What would you say about it?

JUSTIN ELLIOTT, SALON.COM: Look, I think there`s a debate going on
here. I mean, we saw it with the unions today. One of the most popular
chants is how do we end the deficit, end the wars, tax the rich. I think
there is another strain here that is not ready to define goals yet. They
want this thing to grow around generalized anger at Wall Street.

So, I think it`s still sort of being determined.

SCHULTZ: Laura, when you take a look at this crowd, how it started,
how it`s gained and how it has grown nationally, the inequity in the
economy seems to be what has really spearheaded all of this?

LAURA FLANDERS, FREE SPEECH TV: Absolutely. I mean, we saw 27 cities
with "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrations this weekend and that is growing
by the hour. There were nine people arrested at Fannie Mae in Los Angeles
today and more in Chicago at the Federal Reserve.

These folks are not going away and given license for people to say,
you know what, we want more change than just a change of personnel in the
White House. We need a change in our lives.

And they have also opened up a space here for people to talk about
this country and this whole planet being on a crash course with the ecology
that we have to handle and with the human systems of human relations.

I spoke to people who are losing their homes, losing their health
care, facing no jobs in their future. And as you mentioned, this is
election season kicking off.

They are saying it is not the about one party or another. We`ve got
to get bigger. We`ve got to think bigger. We`ve got to build a better
vision of what this country`s promise can be about.

And that`s what you`re hearing here. It may be a bit inchoate. But
that`s because it`s thinking really big.

SCHULTZ: What about the union now being involved? Does this give
them a bit of credibility they might not have had before?

FLANDERS: Absolutely. I mean, the unions, what happened here is
bottom-up movement, created space for unions to come and join in. The
unions sat back like a lot of America saying is this going to last, is this
something real?

They stayed here long enough against the media that ignored them,
against the disdain that was poured on them, long enough for the unions to
say, you know what we`re getting on board -- and that`s huge because that
gives a whole other group of people license to join this movement to change
not just who`s in the White House or change any individual electoral
result, but to change the direction of our economy, because that`s what we
got to do to save our lives.

SCHULTZ: Justin Elliott, what is the political aftermath of this? I
hear the crowd shouting they are not going away. How long will this last?

ELLIOTT: I mean, I think to some extent that depends on Mayor
Bloomberg and NYPD. I mean, NYPD, I easily saw hundreds of officers today,
scores of vans. There`s at least three NYPD helicopters in air.

But they let this march go on and the people in the square have been
here for about two and a half weeks, there`s no sign that they are leaving.
This thing is growing, even though there are no well-defined goals yet.
It`s caught the imagination of the public and it`s still growing.

So, I mean, I think it`s impossible to predict right now where it

SCHULTZ: Well, many of the themes that I heard today, Justin, were
that of the Democratic platform, not to overstate or simplify the
frustration of people, but some of the major issues are right from the
Democratic platform. Are they the winners here?

ELLIOTT: Maybe. I think there`s a mix. I haven`t found many Obama
supporters in this crowd. As I said, one of the chances I kept hearing is,
how do we cut the deficit, end the wars, tax the rich? I mean, Obama does
either of those things.

SCHULTZ: I think there are Obama supporters, I do. I just think they
are frustrated Obama supporters.


ELLIOTT: There is a strain of Obama supporters, but there`s a strain
of people who are far to the left of Obama here and very dissatisfied.

FLANDERS: I heard -- I was here all day for Free Speech TV and what I
heard is people wanted change. They wanted an end to war. They got more
war. They didn`t want to see drone attacks, even taking out people who
were considered to be threats to this country.

They didn`t want to see a little bit of health care reform. They
needed to see profit-seeking out of health care. So, they`re frustrated
and they`re creating the movement that four years ago was channeled into
electoral politics. This has been channeled into a global movement, and I
think that`s what`s exciting because we need global change.

SCHULTZ: So, where`s the change? Let me ask you had this they are
not going to change the government of the United States. But they can
change who runs it.

FLANDERS: They can change who runs it and they can raise the
question, which I think is what`s happening here, that we need to think
bigger. I heard from hedge fund folks today and from stockbrokers said we
understand this economy doesn`t work. We are aware that this recession is
longer and deeper that we anticipated.

Simply recovering this economy is not going do it. It`s not going to
do it for these folks. It`s not going to do it for the 99 percent. It`s
not even going to it for the 1 percent because we are on a crash course
with the planet.

SCHULTZ: All right. Justin Elliott, Laura Flanders, great to have
both of you with us tonight. Thanks for sticking around. I appreciate it
so much.

Coming up in "Psycho Talk," the hypocrites over at FOX News who just
won`t accept what is happening down here in Lower Manhattan and around the

And later, Congresswoman Betty Sutton of Ohio and Larry Hanley of the
ATU Union and more on the protesters.

Stay with us. We are right back on THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ: And in "Psycho Talk" tonight, "FOX and Friends`" Brian
Kilmeade can`t stand the comparisons between "Occupy Wall Street" movement
and the Tea Party. He thinks the Tea Partiers just popped up out of


BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS: The big question is "Occupy Wall Street"
and Tea Party, they are actually equating the two? One was an organic
movement that started across this country without any one definitive
leader, just talked about getting spending in order. "Occupy Wall Street,"
you can`t get a definition of what they stand for.


SCHULTZ: Kilmeade thinks the Tea Party was an organic movement. The
Tea Party was funded and organized by righty groups. And there was even an
unofficially sponsor promoting the hell out of the Tea Party events.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get ready to Tea Party.

ANNOUNCER: April 15th, all across the country, citizens are standing

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here in D.C., what I`m covering in Lafayette Park,
tomorrow, 1 million tea bags will be delivered by, like, 9:00 a.m.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FOX on top of Tea Parties, full steam ahead.

ANNOUNCER: Americans outraged over unfair and crippling taxes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How to get involved in the hundreds of Tea Party

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not happy with how the government is spending
your tax money and taking from you in tax money? You are not alone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Angry taxpayers are going online and attending Tea

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How about you? Would you go to one of these Tea

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s unlike anything we have ever seen before,
at least in recent history.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds of thousands of outraged Americans may
turn out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know of at least 500 cities.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds of up towns and cities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hundreds of these Tea Parties.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m talking about 500 cities tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are tracking 760 cities.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at all of them, that`s where they are
expected to be tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More evidence they are just getting big and

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has touched a nerve in America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People at a ground -- you know, grassroots level
are fed up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a grassroots movement.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The big question will be whether or not weather
mainstream media will cover it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mainstream media is not reporting on them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will the mainstream media cover these Tea
Parties? I think they may be forced to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve seen the other networks kind of mention them,
but in a mocking way.

GLENN BECK: Yes, because they don`t understand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m as mad as hell and I`m not going to take this

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Well, people are mad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple of Tweets on Twitter, I think this
could be the start of a real revolution.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It might end in a revolution.

ANNOUNCER: Taking a stand at the Alamo. Citizens revolt against more

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sean Hannity is getting 8,000 people in Atlanta.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sean Hannity is going to be in Hotlanta.

ANNOUNCER: Sean is on the scene with Newt Gingrich, John the plumber.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: Rick and Bubba, Mike Huckabee, Neal Boortz
and a special performance by singer John Rich.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s take a look at all the hit shows here at
FOX that are going to be covering the Tea Parties.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neil Cavuto, he`s live in Sacramento. Glenn
Beck in San Antonio.

ANNOUNCER: This powerful Tea Party coverage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to one. Are you going to be at one of

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m covering one.

BECK: When these people are going to go to the tax Tea Party and I`ve
said that there`s -- taxes are --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congratulations, by the way.

BECK: What? I`m just attending.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FOX isn`t sponsoring any of this stuff. We`re
just realizing there are a lot of people across the country who are not

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a big difference between covering
something and promoting it.

ANNOUNCER: April 15th, as Tea Parties sweep the nation on Tax Day, we
are there with total, fair and balanced network coverage. Live.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This administration has changed the direction of
the economy towards more government and less private enterprise. That`s
what`s happened and that`s what these people are protesting. And there`s
nothing wrong with that.

It is not a sham. And it is not a fraud. It is now my great duty to
promote the Tea Parties. Here we go.


SCHULTZ: For Brian Kilmeade to call the Tea Party an organic movement
when his own network relentlessly promoted it is unbalanced Psycho Talk.

Up next, the protests are spreading from Wall Street across the
country. And support is growing, with everyone from labor leaders to
Congress joining the fight.

And later, we will hear from some folks to out here tonight, fighting
for the 99 percent. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW and thanks for watching tonight.
The Occupy Wall Street protests continue here in Lower Manhattan, as we
continue to cover the story. This is such a diverse group. You will find
every walk of life. You will find every special interest group.

But there is an underlying theme throughout all of this. It is the
economic injustice that has taken place in this country, which I think has
been the big motivating factor to bring all of these people here. They are
not all fans of Ed Schultz. They are not all fans of THE ED SHOW.

But that`s all part of the territory. The fact of the matter is the
big unknown about all of this is what does this mean and where will it go
politically? How long will it last? But there is unquestionably new
credibility to this protest because organized labor is now on in full

Joining me tonight is a couple of gentlemen from the Amalgamated
Transit Union, Bruce Hamilton and Larry Hanley. Larry, good to have you
with us tonight. Bruce, thank you for your time.


SCHULTZ: Larry, what does this mean? Is this a sea change in
American politics? What is this?

beginning of the sea change. I think this shows us that young people
understand not only what`s happening to them in their lives, but who caused
it. And I think the fact that they have come here and they have stood up,
and that they are ready to sacrifice and be out here tells us that they
know just how deep the problems are in America. And they understand that
the rich people have made it happen.

SCHULTZ: Larry, how much -- how much anger is out here?

HANLEY: Here? Well, I can tell you there`s loads of it. They are
angry at everybody. And I don`t blame them. But I can also tell you, we
represent transit workers in the United States and Canada. And they are
just as angry. They just haven`t had a chance to come down here, but they

Some of them were here today. I think all over the country there is
going to be growing opportunities for people to speak out. Our union and
our members are going to be there.

SCHULTZ: Mr. Hamilton, how would you characterize this crowd and what
has taken place down here?

HAMILTON: It`s absolutely a fantastic crowd. I don`t see how it
could possibly be any better as far as spirit of this, as far as forward-
looking. You know, everybody is really very positive mood. We believe
that if we can get together, we can actually make some constructive

SCHULTZ: Who are these people for? I mean, there`s such a wide array
of interest groups here. Who are they for?

HAMILTON: We`re the 99 percent, all right? So, we are for everything
that the one percent is not for. Like you said, it is a hugely diverse
group. Who can tell you what they`re for.

We know what they are against. And they are against Wall Street
taking everything.

SCHULTZ: What is union involvement going to do for this?

HAMILTON: Union involvement is -- you know, some people are saying
that the unions are now -- you know, have come into the fight. The fact is
the unions have always been in the fight. And we are extremely happy to
see that the young people and others have come together and, you know,
started this action. And you know, we -- in a way, we consider that they
are coming to the union point of view and union action.

SCHULTZ: Larry, I mean, if you`ve got -- if you`ve got every
organized labor group in this country behind this, how can Congress not get
the message and respond? I mean, the -- the legislative response is the
most powerful thing that can take place in our government. That`s the push
for change.

Now, you know, here in New York, in Albany, things are going to start
happening in December. They could do something about the millionaires` tax
in December. But even before that, in November, in Ohio, there`s going to
be Senate Bill 5, which is Issue Two on the ballot. I mean, is this going
to spark maybe some kind of enthusiasm, carryover to have something happen
on a legislative level in a state?

HANLEY: Well, we certainly hope so. And I think what we are hearing
from America`s young people is that if it doesn`t change, they are going to
make a change. And I think that over the course of the last 30 years, so
many wedges have been driven in the American population. And your point
about diversity is really true.

This is a hugely diverse crowd. And as our unions become involved and
connect with them, I think you will see a coming together of the 99 percent
that both Bruce and they are talking about.

SCHULTZ: Well, there is a new poll out showing public -- the public
in this country has a favorable opinion of this movement. Rasmussen poll,
view of Occupy Wall Street, favorable 33 percent, unfavorable 27 percent;
40 percent, they have no opinion.

How do you get those people? It would seem to me that you would have
to stay on the job, on the site and continue to tell the story.

HANLEY: I think spread it around the country. I think that just as
people all over the globe have stood up and fought back this year, it is
time for Americans to stand up and fight back. What we intend to do, not
only our union but the entire AFL-CIO, is get to out there and make it

SCHULTZ: Is very clear in the last election that President Obama and
the Democrats benefited from organized labor. Does President Obama, who
now says that he is the underdog in 2012 -- does he benefit from this the
longer it goes?

HANLEY: I think he will benefit from it if he gets out in front of it
and leads it.

SCHULTZ: You want President Obama here?

HANLEY: Absolutely. I think the president belongs here with us.
These are the people who elected President Obama, who gave the Democrats a
majority. These are the people that are suffering now.

SCHULTZ: But there are a lot of people here tonight that aren`t Obama

HANLEY: Well, he need come down here and convert them. I think they
need to hear from our president that he`s sympathetic to the cause.

SCHULTZ: Mr. Hamilton, if the job rate in this country is better,
this doesn`t take place. Is that a fair statement? I mean, if we had 4.5,
five percent unemployment, would this be taking place tonight?

HAMILTON: I think you`re probably right.

SCHULTZ: You think it is about -- that is the core thing, the
unemployment and the frustration?

HAMILTON: It certainly is a huge part of it, yes. The reason for
concentrating on Wall Street, obviously, is that the richest one percent
are taking an increasingly large percentage of the wealth that`s created by
working people.

HANLEY: And I want to add, Ed, that these are young people who can`t
get jobs. Our members are suffering all over the country because the jobs
they have are being stripped away. Their wages are being cut. Their
pensions have been taken away.

Our members are struggling every day and working hard. And these are
their children. These are our children, who are out here saying America
must change. America must take care of its people.

SCHULTZ: I have to admit, I`m not proud of all of them. But then if
you`ve got 99 percent of Americans, you`re not going to be proud of all of

HANLEY: These right.

SCHULTZ: I think it is the general message that is important.
Gentlemen, thanks for joining us tonight. I appreciate it very much.

Senate Democrats want the president`s jobs bill to be paid for with
the Millionaires Tax. Harry Reid is on that story.

And up next, we will talk to a millionaire who thinks that is a great
way to pay for it. Stay with us. You are watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW and thanks for watching. We
come to you live from the Occupy Wall Street protest down in Lower

President Obama`s jobs bill got a boost from Democratic leaders in the
Senate today. A new proposal to tax people making more than a million
dollars a year would offset the cost of the jobs plan in its entirety.

Joining me tonight is a millionaire who approves of the Democratic
plan. Daniel Berger is an attorney from Philadelphia and a member of the
group Patriotic Millionaires, who advocate for the expiration of the Bush
tax cuts for those who earn a million dollars a year or more.

Mr. Berger, good to have you with us tonight. I appreciate your time
here on MSNBC.

know, in terms of sports talk radio, first time, long time.

SCHULTZ: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It`s good to have you
with us. What would work in your world? You`re a wealthy man. What would
work? What should the Congress do to pay for this jobs bill?

BERGER: Well, you know, Ed, this was the whole impetus behind our
group, the Patriotic Millionaires. We felt that, you know, a expiration of
the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003, which, as you know, would restore the
rate that existed before that, and would increase the highest tax bracket
marginal rate from 35 percent to 39.6 percent, which represents a 4.6
percent percentage point increase -- or 13 percent in terms of the highest
marginal tax bracket -- was a modest way of addressing what was described
as a fiscal crisis.

And in no way, shape or form are people -- and by the way, our
proposal would only apply people who earned a million dollars a year or
more. So only that part of the Bush tax cut would be permitted to expire.
And we thought this was a modest way of dealing with the fiscal -- so-
called fiscal crisis, and to make a contribution and share the sacrifice
necessary to address and redress the fiscal imbalances that had grown up
during the -- during the Bush years.

SCHULTZ: Daniel, what do you think -- Mr. Berger, what do you think
President Obama should do? He has got now polling on his side. The public
is on board with this. New "Washington Post" poll show the majority of the
country supports the jobs plan, including moderates and independents.
Isn`t this -- if you`re going to do this, if you`re going to get more money
out of millionaires, there has to be a political move.

Apparently, by these polls, there`s no political downside. What
should the president and the Democrat do?

BERGER: I agree with you. As a matter of fact, they should endorse
this and push for the expiration of the Bush tax cuts only on persons
earning a million dollars a year or more. And you know, the whole debate
on taxing the rich -- by the way, I consider the rich, you know, as persons
who -- who are in the top one percent.

And that is roughly equivalent to people who earn a million dollars a
year or more. You know, it`s -- the debate on this has been
mischaracterized. It is not class warfare. It is not even -- it is not
even math or accounting. It is a question of basic fairness.

And if you look at the tax rates, it`s true, the rich pay somewhat
more, moderately more. The top one percent pay moderately more than
persons in other income groups. But they earn disproportionately more,
even taking into account the fact that they earn moderately more.

So, that`s a very strong indication that the relative tax burden on
the public is more on people in the lower income groups that the higher
income groups. And you know, Ed --

SCHULTZ: Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

BERGER: That can be demonstrated by a very simple question. Would
you rather pay 70 percent more in income taxes than other taxpayers in
other tax groups, if you could earn 1,500 to 3,000 percent more in income?
The answer is obvious You would pay a little bit more to have the
opportunity to earn 15 to 30 times more.

Well, that session actually the situation that the top one percent is
in, versus the other 99 percent. It is a strong indication that the
relative tax burden, you know, on the rich is less than on the middle class
and on the working class.

SCHULTZ: And Daniel, what do you say to those who oppose this? You
can`t raise taxes on the job creators. I don`t know about you, but that
infuriates me. It is so simplistic. Yet there are some Americans out
there that just repeat it to over and over again.

Where are the jobs? The jobs were not created when the top one
percent got all the tax breaks. But you can`t raise taxes on the job
creators. What`s your --

BERGER: That`s one of the myths of -- that`s -- Ed, that`s part of
the folklore of capitalism.


BERGER: The idea that the one percent, you know, create the wealth in
the country. It is simply -- it is simply not true. That`s the whole
basis of the Republican philosophy of trickle down. And you know what the
problem is, there is no empirical support for their position.

You know, when you think about it, the taxes were increased during the
Clinton administration to address a fiscal crisis that existed then. From
1991 to -- actually, from I believe in the mid-`80s to 2001, a period when
taxes went up, because Reagan increased taxes in his second -- in his
second term.

SCHULTZ: It was the `94 Congress that did it.

BERGER: Here is the thing. During that period, as Warren Buffett
pointed out in his op ed piece in the "New York Times," 40 million jobs
were created. From 2001 to 2008, when the financial crisis hit and there
was a severe economic downturn, you know, the Bush tax cuts -- the vaunted
Bush tax cuts created nine million new jobs. And then the recession
destroyed 15 million jobs.

So we are in the hole, you know -- we are in the hole now, you know,
about six million jobs.

SCHULTZ: Yeah, no doubt.

BERGER: So there is no empirical support to the idea that tax cuts
will ipso facto create jobs. What they really do is increase the savings
of wealthy people who invest money, not necessarily in new businesses.
Some of the money would go into new businesses, but most of it goes into
financial assets and has caused a boom in the financial markets and in
financial assets, but not in jobs.

What we need are people like Steve Jobs to create real jobs.

SCHULTZ: You bet. Daniel Berger, great to have you with us tonight.
You say first time -- long time, first time. I say first time, many more
time. Is that OK? We`d love to have you back.

BERGER: Have me back any time. I`d be delighted to do it.

SCHULTZ: It`s always nice and refreshing to have an unselfish
American who realized that the Treasury needs more money to fiscally save
this country. I appreciate what you and your group are doing. Thanks so
much. Daniel Berger of the Patriotic Millionaires.

We will be right back with more from the 99 percenters here on Wall
Street. Stay with us.



SCHULTZ: So, what do you think of this? How real is it?

MIKE MEYERS, ACTOR, COMEDIAN: It is very real. I`m a new father and
a new American. And it`s just beautiful to see democracy in action. I
grew up 99 percent. I came to this country with a Canadian dollar and a
dream. I`ve done well. I believe in capitalism and I believe in a level
playing field.


SCHULTZ: All walks of life in this crowd in Lower Manhattan. Matthew
Swaye is with us tonight. He`s a protester. He is an American. He has a
statement to make. Matthew, good to have you with us. Where are you from?


SCHULTZ: Why are you here?

SWAYE: I`m here because I feel like we are entering a post-
bureaucratic age, in which active participation is going to be more than
just going to the polls every once -- once in a while, but really getting
on the street, holding a sign, be willing to put your beliefs on your shirt
and walk with it and face the fact that a lot of the things in this country
that we see as separate are actually together.

There`s a lot of synthesis that needs to happen.

SCHULTZ: There have been a lot of protests in American history.


SCHULTZ: What`s different with this one, if anything?

SWAYE: Well, I`m a product of the American school system. So I
haven`t studied any of the protests. I know nothing about -- I didn`t even
know to bring a throat lozenge tonight, because it didn`t occur to me. I
was taught none of this. This is all new to me. I think it is wonderful
to have a leaderless movement, where women and previously disenfranchised
groups are -- their voices are heard.

SCHULTZ: The unions, are they disenfranchised? They are a part of it

SWAYE: The unions, they have been refurbishing their lobbies for a
long time. And I think they are now getting active. I think with the
Democrats abandoning them over the last year, the unions are really awake
to the fact that they need to speak directly to the youth. I think they
have got a great group of, you know, millions and millions of unemployed
young people who are going to hear their message. And they are taking it
directly to the people and not worrying about the politicians.

These kids are used to voting every day up down, I like it, I don`t
like it, I like it, I don`t like it. I`m doing surveys and petitions every
day, online. I don`t -- politicians -- we know they are bought and paid
for. We are not -- we are not looking to put somebody new in office.
We`re looking to bring in a new era, where what we want can be realized
directly, not just with a representative who can somebody step in between
us and mark up our message.

SCHULTZ: How else are you going to move the government forward? I
mean, Washington has a House, a Senate, the presidency?

SWAYE: This is the government. This is the government. This is the
people. This is the people. We are the 99 percent, you know? It is about
to get cold. We will see if this -- if this persists. But I suspect it is
going to be here for a long time. It is here. It`s 160 other cities, you

SCHULTZ: There`s all kinds of numbers floating around..

SWAYE: The main thing is the media needs to start to do research on
this. There`s books on consensus that are published largely overseas. But
there are many, many books on the very intricate process that`s being
participated in here. This is not random. It is chaotic, but it`s not

This is a very intricate process. Everybody read Peter Geldeloose
(ph), that`s the book on consensus that`s being taught and studied

SCHULTZ: Matthew Swaye, thanks for joining us tonight.

SWAYE: Thank you so much.

SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us. That`s THE ED SHOW, live from
Lower Manhattan as the Occupy Wall Street protests continue. Have a great
one. We`ll see you tomorrow night.


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