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The Ed Show for Thursday, October 20th, 2011

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

Guests: Lawrence Korb, Robert Menendez, Ezra Klein, Dr. Cornel West, Kevin

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. Welcome to THE ED SHOW
from New York.

Ronald Reagan tried to get Moammar Gadhafi. George W. Bush made peace
with Moammar Gadhafi. Today, the coalition led by Barack Obama helped kill
the Libyan dictator. It`s a major foreign policy victory for the United
States and Republicans just can`t stand it.

This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.


friends and allies, we`ve demonstrated what collective action can achieve
in the 21st century.

SCHULTZ (voice-over): A brutal dictator is dead and Republicans can`t
let President Obama take credit.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: Let`s give credit where credit is due.
It`s the French and the British that led on this fight.

SCHULTZ: Tonight, former assistant defense secretary, Lawrence Korb,
on the right wing reaction to the death of Moammar Gadhafi.

And New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez on what Gadhafi`s death means for
the families of the Lockerbie victims.

Dr. Cornel West was arrested during a 99 percent protest on Sunday.
Tonight, he joins me exclusively.

And a right wing operative tries to ambush Vice President Joe Biden
and it doesn`t go so well for the guy.

straight, guys. Don`t screw around with me.

SCHULTZ: We`ll play you the rest of the tape.


SCHULTZ: Good evening, folks. Good you have to with us tonight.

Eight months after the early stages of a revolution by the Libyan
people, seven months after NATO forces sent war planes into Libyan air
space, and two months after the fall of Tripoli, Libyan dictator Moammar
Gadhafi is dead.

We would like to warn you in advance that the following footage may be
disturbing to some viewers. It shows Gadhafi captured by rebels, bloodied
but still alive.

The Libyan prime minister says Gadhafi was found in his home town of
Sirte. He was dragged out of a sewage pipe and was taken through the town
in an open air vehicle for all to see. After a firefight, Gadhafi was
killed by a bullet to the head. One of his sons was also killed in the

News of the dictator`s death was greeted with celebrations across the
country. He ruled for more than four decades.

Tonight, Libya is still not under any centralized control.

President Barack Obama had been criticized for leading from behind at
the onset of the NATO mission to depose Gadhafi. Today, he addressed the
Libyan end game from the Rose Garden.


OBAMA: Today, we can definitively say that the Gadhafi regime has
come to an end. But the United States, together with the international
community, is committed to the Libyan people. You have won your

And now, we will be a partner as you forge a future that provides
dignity, freedom, and opportunity.


SCHULTZ: So, in the history of our country, it has been times like
this when we have always left politics at the water`s edge.

Here`s the meat of the story: even in the success of the operation,
Republicans can`t allow President Obama to receive any credit. For months,
prominent Republicans went on television to explain why the president`s
Libya strategy was doomed to fail.

Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann started it out
trying scare the American people into thinking that President Obama was
just minutes away from putting boots on the ground in Libya.


at a full scale escalation, potentially United States troops on the ground.
We were assured by our president that would not happen and now, a call for
arms. So, this is President Obama`s war even though he`s not using that
term. We`re now engaged in a third Middle Eastern battle.


SCHULTZ: Bachmann`s fellow presidential contender Newt Gingrich,
former speaker of the House, had a host of contradictory positions on
Libya. But he was remarkably consistent in blaming President Obama for
botching the mission.


protecting civilians, you can`t do that from the air. Gadhafi is going to
use light infantry, he`s going to use his secret police, he`s going to be
in the cities, he`s going to be inside buildings. You`re not going to stop
that with air power. This is a fundamental mistake.


SCHULTZ: Fundamental mistake? Well, Republicans in the Senate --
well, they joined in as well. Like Senator Lindsey Graham, a ranking
member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and an Air Force colonel, a
military judge. He went so far as to say that the president was giving
comfort to our enemies.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: This strategy that President
Obama has come up with, I think is not going to defeat a determined enemy.
The question is, is Gadhafi determined? The strategy is confusing to the
American people. Only 21 percent believe President Obama has a clear view
of how the handle Libya.

It is demoralizing to our allies, particularly people on the ground
that we`re trying to help. And I think it is encouraging to our enemies.

So, this strategy is going to lead to a stalemate.


SCHULTZ: A stalemate.

And did I hear in that sound bite, Senator Lindsey quote a poll?
Funny how they`re paying attention to polls right now when it comes to jobs
in this country.

Let`s continue on. And freshman Republican boy wonder, Senator Marco
Rubio, also jumped on the pile during a floor speech back in June.


RUBIO: First, we ceded most of the operation to our NATO allies. And
God bless them for trying, but they do not have the military capability to
finish the job.


SCHULTZ: Yes, there`s an expert there. So, now with Gadhafi
eliminated, you would think these Republican would eat their words and give
the Obama administration some credit that it deserves.


RUBIO: Let`s give credit where credit is due. It`s the French and
British that led on this fight. And probably even led on the strike that
led to Gadhafi`s capture or, you know, to his death.


SCHULTZ: Now, hang on a second. Back in June, Marco Rubio said the
United States made a mistake by working with NATO allies on this operation?

Now, with the mission complete, the NATO allies, they just get all the

We need a senior member of the Senate Armed Services Committee to set
the record straight, don`t we?


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I congratulate the British and the
French for their leadership and their effort. And so, it`s been a
significant success and we should celebrate today.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: But the U.S. played a significant role in
the NATO operation. Not just the British and the French, Senator McCain.
The first few weeks, first two weeks in particular, U.S. tomahawk cruise
missiles and U.S. air refueling capabilities. The Obama administration
from your perspective deserves a lot of credit for this as well, don`t

MCCAIN: I think they deserve credit. The fact is, if we had declared
a no-fly zone early on, we would have never had -- Gadhafi would have
fallen at the beginning. The second thing is that if we had used our
capabilities, the A-10 and the AC-130, this would have been over a long
time ago.

But I think the administration deserves credit. But I especially
appreciate the leadership of the British and the French in this.


SCHULTZ: And, of course, way to put words in his mouth, Wolf. No
leading question there at all. This is really how you think, isn`t it,

Are you kidding me? John McCain, a man who ran for president on the
strength of his military service and his foreign policy credentials is
minimizing the job done by our armed forces in executing this mission. He
mentioned nothing about our operational success, nothing about our
efficiency, and nothing about the care taken to keep American troops out of
harm`s way.

In fact, the only thing McCain can manage to say about the United
States` role in the mission is that the military just didn`t do enough.

Later in the day, McCain softened his attacks on the president and
called the mission a success for the Obama administration. That was
interview number three.

Well, maybe someone told Senator McCain how badly he was disrespecting
the military to score political points. Or maybe someone reminded him
about his recent record and visit to Libya.

You see, in August of 2009, it was John McCain along with Lindsey
Graham and Senator Joe Lieberman, they met with the guy who got killed
today, Moammar Gadhafi. According to a diplomatic cable released by
WikiLeaks, the senators` pledge and support to the military dictator, as
well as public relations advice on the transfer of the Lockerbie bomber.

McCain wasn`t shy about meeting with the man who slaughtered his own
people and is suspected of plotting the death of hundreds of Americans. In
fact, he told the world about it on Twitter that very evening. "Late
evening with Colonel Gadhafi at his ranch in Libya -- interesting meeting
with an interesting man."

So, on a day when the world can see the vindication of President
Obama`s foreign policy doctrine, Republicans are still looking for ways to
downplay and discredit the administration`s success.

Let me play to your common sense tonight, if I may, you wonderful
viewers out there. You mean to tell me two veteran senators, McCain and
Lindsey Graham, and a guy who used to be speaker of the House who wants to
be president, and a congresswoman who can`t stay away from television
cameras, also running for president, and a brand new attack dog for the
Republicans, Marco Rubio -- they just all happened to be on the same page.
They all just happened to be military experts and say, you know, President
Obama is absolutely doing the wrong thing here.

No, no, no. This isn`t about military critique. This is all about
getting President Obama into the minds of the American people, that he is
incompetent, doesn`t have a plan, can`t lead, and can`t make those
executive decisions.

How many more terrorists does President Obama have to take down? How
many more dictators does he have to depose with the help of NATO before the
Republicans will give him any credit at all without any political
calculation involved?

This is another reason why those protesters are out in the streets in
this country. It is the divide.

Bay of Pigs -- did you hear any Republicans really working over
President Kennedy way back when or were we all on the same page then?

And there`s one more thing I want to point out tonight. Now, the last
crowd that used to be in charge of the fort, they used to take us into
wars, cost us trillions of dollars and a bunch of lives. Vice President
Joe Biden reminded us of how this mission was done today.


BIDEN: The people of Libya have gotten rid of a dictator of 40 years
who I personally knew. This is one tough, not-so nice guy. And guess
what? They got a chance now. But what would happen? In this case,
America spent $2 billion total and didn`t lose a single life.


SCHULTZ: Which plan do you want to work with?

Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question: will Republicans ever give President Obama any credit for
anything? Text A for yes, text B for no to 622639. We invite you to go to
our blog at, and we`ll bring you the results later on in the

Joining me now is Lawrence Korb, the senior fellow, Center for
American Progress, and former assistant secretary of defense under Ronald

Mr. Korb, good to have you with us tonight. Is this --


SCHULTZ: You bet. Is this a new blueprint for American foreign
policy to -- and is this a new way of doing it all along? What do you

KORB: Well, I think the Republicans cannot admit the Democrats know
how to conduct foreign policy because, traditionally, that`s been their ace
card that they play in the election.

And the fact is this is the latest in President Obama`s triumphs. He
got bin Laden, he got al-Awlaki, and now, he got Gadhafi, with minimal
expenditure of funds, and no loss of American lives compare to the fact
that, you know, they went into Iraq under false pretenses, spent $2
trillion to $3 trillion. You know, had close to 5,000 Americans killed,
50,000 wounded, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed.

And this just galls them that Obama has figured out the right way in
which to approach these problems.

SCHULTZ: So, we`ve got a bunch of terrorists who have been killed.
We`ve got Osama bin Laden gone. Four senior al Qaeda leaders are gone, and
now Gadhafi.

How can Republicans question the president`s national security

And furthermore, you`ve got Senators McCain, Graham and Lieberman had
a friendly meeting with Gadhafi two years ago. How can they criticize the
president with any credibility at all in your opinion?

KORB: Well, they should have no credibility. But what they`re saying
is -- well, he could have done it better. And no matter what you do -- I
think if Obama cured cancer, they would say, well, you should have got it
done a couple of years ago.

I mean, it just galls them when Obama, you know, showed how you could
work with the rest of the world. You could get it done and improve your
image in the Arab and Muslim world, which was really undermined by the way
we went into Iraq and how ham-handedly we did it and under false pretenses.
And they forget, you know, the Arab League asked us to go. The U.N.
approved it. Our allies stepped up.

I mean, this whole idea that these free rides, all these threats we
talk about, are not just threats to the United States. They`re threats to
all of our friends and allies, and they should pay their fair share.

SCHULTZ: Here`s something else Florida Senator Marco Rubio said today
on the floor. Here it is.


RUBIO: I criticize the president for -- he did the right thing, he
just took too long to do it and didn`t do enough of it. And let me tell
you the consequences of that -- there are thousands of shoulder-fired
rockets that are now missing, you got 30-some-odd armed militias that are
formed, you have a country that`s been significantly eroded and has to be


SCHULTZ: That was on the floor of FOX News.

How big is the concern over these loose weapons?

KORB: Well, obviously, it`s a concern. But the fact of the matter is
that if the United States had done all the bombing itself, it wouldn`t have
changed anything. In fact, one of the great paradoxes is because it took
comparatively long to do this, we were able to work this Transitional
National Council to get them to put measures in place to prevent thing like
that and get themselves in a position to establish another government.

I mean, look what happened when we rushed into Iraq with no plan about
what to do. And basically, the place fell apart. So, I think it worked
out very, very well. You want it to go methodically and make sure.

Sure, we need to worry about that. In fact, we`ve already had people
over there on the ground. Not military people but other people trying to
get ahold of these weapons.

SCHULTZ: Mr., Korb, good to have you on tonight. Thank you for your
time. I appreciate it.

Before we continue a programming note: beginning this Monday, THE ED
SHOW will be airing on this network 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 Central, 6:00
Mountain, 5:00 West Coast Time. I hope you`ll all join us for our show.
It is the same ED SHOW, just a different time slot, 8:00 Eastern. We`re
looking forward to it.

Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the
screen and share your thoughts on Twitter @EdShow. We want to know what
you think.

Coming up, what Gadhafi`s death means to the families of the Lockerbie
family victims and what`s next for Libya. Senator Robert Menendez of New
Jersey will join me.

And later, an ED SHOW exclusive: He spent Sunday night behind bars
after protesting on the steps of the Supreme Court. I`ll ask Dr. Cornel
West about the 99 percent movement. Herman Cain, President Obama -- will
he get his support? And so much more.

You`re watching THE ED SHOW. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: And just a reminder, starting Monday, THE ED SHOW moves to a
new time. Join us at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 Central. It`s the same show,
new time slot. We hope you join us starting Monday night.

Coming up, the death of Moammar Gadhafi helps bring closure to the
families who lost loved ones aboard Pan Am 103. New Jersey Senator Robert
Menendez with me, next.

Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

The death of Moammar Gadhafi is the end of a brutal chapter in
history. And it`s the start of a new one that may provide closure for
hundreds of Americans. Gadhafi has been long suspected of orchestrating
the 1988 bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. In 2009,
Gadhafi helped arrange the release of the convicted bomber Abdel Al-

With Gadhafi dead, family members of victims and U.S. officials hope
to finally get all the facts the tragic terrorist flight.

Burt Ammerman, brother of Pan Am victim Tommy Ammerman, spoke about
Gadhafi`s death with Tamron Hall earlier today on MSNBC.


BERT AMMERMAN, BROTHER DIED ON PAN AM 103: It`s justice. There`s no
question for me. It brings closure. It`s hard to believe I`ve been doing
this for 23 years.

And to finally get the man that ordered the bombing of Pan Am 103
eliminated, that`s true justice for my brother and all citizens in free


SCHULTZ: Joining me now is Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey.
Senator Menendez is a member of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.

Senator, good to have you with us tonight.

I know you`ve worked awful hard on this over the years trying to bring
closure for all the families in the wake of this tragic bombing which has
haunted the United States for years. What are you hearing today from
victims -- from victims` families?

SEN. ROBERT MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: Well, I think overwhelmingly,
Ed, there is a sense of a measure of justice here. We have always thought
that Gadhafi was the one who ordered the bombing of Pan Am 103 where 270
lives were lost, including 34 from my home state of New Jersey.

And the reality is that we always knew that al-Megrahi could not have
acted alone. And it`s obvious that he was so important to Gadhafi that he
used all of his leverage on an oil deal to get him back into Libya.

So, this is a measure of justice. But I still want to close a very
final chapter and make sure that the Transitional National Committee that
is the interim government continues to give us access to all the others in
the regime, to make sure that everybody come to justice.

SCHULTZ: Well, you authored the Pan Am Accountability Act, which
requires a new Libyan government to cooperate in the Lockerbie
investigation. What`s going to be the next step there?

MENENDEZ: Well, certainly, we have about, I think, anywhere between
$30 billion and $36 billion of frozen assets of the Libyans in the United
States. And while we have been supportive of giving some of that money for
humanitarian purposes, it seem to me as I have said to Secretary of State
Hillary Clinton that we need to make sure that the Transitional National
Committee is cooperating with us both in access to al-Megrahi who is in
Libya and to others in the Gadhafi regime who may have been part of his
government and who may have been part of this whole process of determining
the execution of Pan Am 103.

So, I think if we get that type of response, of course, then we can
have those assets flow fully to Libya. If we don`t get that type of
response, we should use it as a leverage point.

SCHULTZ: I want to play more from Burt Ammerman, and hear what he had
to say about the death and what it means -- the death of Gadhafi.


AMMERMAN: I`ve been saying for 20 years, if you want to eliminate
state sponsored terrorism, you after the leaders like Gadhafi, like
Hussein, like the leader in Iran right now. If they know we`ll deal with
that, this will stop.

I applaud the Obama administration. He`s developed a blueprint for
the future. Technology, intelligence, allies.


SCHULTZ: Senator, is he correct about a new blueprint for the future?

MENENDEZ: Well, look. The Obama administration here led as the
sponsor of the no-fly zone resolution in the Senate that then led to the
effort at the United Nations and NATO`s engagement. You have to give
credit to President Obama for leading an international effort here that
ultimately eight months later, brought the end of a 42-year dictatorship.

And if you add that to the capture and killing of bin Laden and al-
Awlaki, the reality is that this is the one administration that is actually
brought those terrorists to justice.

SCHULTZ: What about the concern that is out there dealing with loose
arms falling into the wrong hands -- shoulder fired missiles, some chemical
weapons. Where do you stand -- where do we stand on that? How much of a
concern is it?

MENENDEZ: Well, it`s a concern, particularly with the shoulder-fired
missiles. The Transitional National Committee didn`t do a particularly
good job, and understandably, they were in the midst of a struggle to oust
Gadhafi but they didn`t secure those sites -- at least not all of them.
And so, that is a concern for us and it`s something we`ll have to work with
them to track down and to make sure that the rest of those sites are secure

SCHULTZ: Senator, have we become so political in this country that
Republicans can`t give the Obama administration any credit whatsoever?

They seem to stop at -- we used to stop as a country at the water`s
edge when it came to international affairs like this. But the remarks that
are coming from your colleagues over on the other side of the aisle are
almost gut-wrenching. Your thoughts on that.

MENENDEZ: You know, it`s a shame. This is a moment in which America
is rejoice in the sense that a terrorist was brought to justice, someone
who killed Americans, someone who promoted terrorism. You know, the fact
of the matter is I guess that when your mission in the Congress of the
United States is to make Barack Obama a one-term president, you can`t even
see credit to him when he has acted in a way that has helped the nation be
more secure -- you know, Bin Laden, al-Awlaki, now Gadhafi -- that`s one
impressive record for one president.

SCHULTZ: Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey -- good to have you
with us tonight. Thanks so much.

MENENDEZ: Good to be with you, Ed.

SCHULTZ: Coming up, it`s an ED SHOW exclusive. Dr. Cornel West gives
his first interview since his arrest in front of the Supreme Court. I`ll
ask him about the future of the 99 percent movement and much more. You
won`t want to miss this.


SCHULTZ: Breaking news out of Washington, D.C.: On the Obama jobs
bill, Senate Republicans tonight have just blocked the bill that would have
given states money to pay for 400,000 teachers and first responders. The
bill would have taxed millionaires 0.5 percent on earnings over $1 million.
The Republicans refused to allow the bill to go forward.

The vote moments ago was 50-50, 10 short of the 60 votes need to clear
a Republican procedural roadblock. More obstruction in Washington, D.C. as
millions of Americans are out of work.

Joining me now is Ezra Klein of "The Washington Post" and MSNBC.

Ezra, good to have you with us tonight. Just moments ago, the vote
just took place. How will Republicans defend this vote? How do you see

EZRA KLEIN, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, they`ll keep doing what they
-- what their general line has been, which that they now say that the
problem isn`t deficit spending, because obviously the president is
attempting to pay for his bills.

They stay president is that it is temporary, that we are doing
temporary jobs measures and that that has failed in the past. And it is a
very increasingly odd argument. We have a temperature appear jobs problem.
Nobody thinks this is going to be permanent.

So one thing you do when you have a temporary break in the economy`s
capacity to create jobs is you give states money to not lay off more
people. So you stop having this sort of public drag on the labor market.
But that`s been their argument, because, frankly, their old argument ended
when the Democrats decided to begin paying for their bills.

SCHULTZ: Bottom line here, the Republicans rounded up just enough
Democrats to kill this. It was 50/50. The other thing is that where does
this leave President Obama and the Democrats right now in trying to get
jobs moving in this country? It`s more obstruction.

KLEIN: They can`t pass their bills. Even if all the Democrats had
voted for the bill, it would not have passed, because the Republicans would
have filibustered it to death. But I would note one thing about the
Democrats` strategy here, and I think it is something they`re doing that`s
wise. They have not only voted on the full bill, on the 447 billion dollar
American Jobs Act, but then they moved to begin breaking it up.

The reason they`re breaking it up is because if they break it up, they
keep this conversation going for days or week or months. They keep the
press. They keep folks like you and I talking about the jobs bill. So it
doesn`t just disappear or dissipate. It isn`t just one speech a month or
so ago or two months ago or whenever he introduced it.

The Republicans have to keep defending it. And jobs remain in the
news. So for the Democrats` political strategy, this is working out fine,
because they`re keeping control of the conversation. But as you say, so
far as actually getting real people real jobs, so long as the Senate can`t
move any legislation forward, nothing is happening.

SCHULTZ: This definitely is going to hurt education across the
country, as those teachers are desperately needed. But politically, this
is a winner for the Democrats. Polling is heavy for the Democrats and this
issue across the country.

KLEIN: Yes. If you talk to the White House, one thing they`ve seen
recently -- and it has not been true in any of their other stratagems over
the last year -- is they`re seeing their numbers move. They`re seeing
their numbers on jobs move up. They`re seeing the Republicans numbers on
jobs move down.

The effort to keep this in front of people, to keep this conversation
alive has actually led to people looking at the Congress and saying those
guys appear to be standing in the way of jobs, and the president and the
Democrats appear to be trying to create them.

One other point I would make on that is that it is interesting to
watch some of the Republicans` arguments sort of try to shift around this.
As you remember, Ed, one of the big thing they`ve been saying is the
problem is we have too much government; we have too much federal spending.

We`ve lost about 500,000 public sector jobs over the last couple
years. And we`ve lost tons of public sector jobs this year. We`ve had
almost straightforward private sector job growth. And we`ve lost public
sector workers.

Nobody thinks the economy is doing well. So this idea that if we just
shrink the public sector we will recover has not worked. So this is the
Democrats trying to move in a new direction. It is not at all clear really
why the Republicans don`t want to go there.

SCHULTZ: Well, this is also another example of how the Republicans
are worshipping at the altar of no taxes. The tax would have been point
five percent on all Americans who are making over a million dollars a year.
Meaning they would not have been taxed on the first million dollars. It
would have started on the first dollar after a million dollars, point five

So if you made 1.1 million dollars a year gross, you would be paying
500 dollars to help pay for this. And the Republicans have said no. So
400,000 jobs down the drain tonight in America.

MSNBC`s Ezra Klein, thanks for your time.

He was arrested for standing up for the working class and poor.
Coming up, Dr. Cornel West will join me to talk about the 99 Percent
Movement and much more. Stay tuned.

And Rush Limbaugh says Democrats` real concern about rapists is that
they still vote Democrat after being caught. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. As thousands gathered to honor
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. at the dedication for his memorial, a smaller
group of men and women chose to celebrate Dr. King in a different way.
They rallied on the steps of the Supreme Court, demanding economic justice
for the poor and working class in this country, the 99 percent.

One of those activists was Dr. Cornel West. Here`s some of what he
had to say.


DR. CORNEL WEST, PRINCETON UNVIERSITY: Out of deep love for working
and poor people, that we`re willing to put whatever it takes, even if we
get arrested today, and say, we will not allow this day of Martin Luther
King Jr.`s memorial go without somebody going to jail.

Because Martin King would be here right with us, willing to throw down
out of deep love.


SCHULTZ: And a short time later, Dr. West was arrested. And he is
joining me now, as promised. Dr. Cornel West, professor at Princeton
University`s Center for African American Studies. He`s also author of "The
Brother West, Living and Loving Out Loud," and the co-host of a new radio
show, "Smiley and West."

Great to have you with us tonight, professor. You know, you`re always
welcome on this program.

WEST: Always a blessing, my brother. Congratulations to you for your
new time slot, though, brother.

SCHULTZ: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Are you absolutely
positive that Dr. King would have been there? Would this have been his
moment? Would this have been his movement? Would he have been a leader of

WEST: There`s no doubt that King would be part of the Occupy
Movement. He would appreciate the stone and mortar that my alpha brothers
put together. He did, in fact, embrace that kind of affirmation.

But most importantly, he lived on the ground, tied to love, tied to
justice, always part of a movement, trying to bring people of all colors,
all cultures, all civilizations, all sexual orientations and all religions
or agnostic and atheistic brothers and sisters, too.

That Martin Luther King Jr. knew that he had to connect public
interest to the plight of the week and the vulnerable in this society and
around the world.

SCHULTZ: You went to jail. Symbolism? Is that what it was?

WEST: Symbolic in terms of a gesture. It wasn`t symbolic in terms of
the 24 and a half hour 2 hours inside the clinker, though, brother. That
was real, with the shackles on my ankles and the handcuffs. It was very

But with 18 others. And of course, we mixed with the brothers and
sisters of various colors, disproportionately black there in the jail.

SCHULTZ: Cornel, why is this happening now? Why is this movement
aloft? Why is it on the move? What is happening?

WEST: I think what`s happening is that you`re getting moral outrage,
righteous indignation, especially among young brothers and sisters of all
colors, who see a decay in the two-party system. They see a Republican
party, mediocre, mendacious, mean-spirited.

They see a Democratic party not strong enough, oftentimes too
spineless, oftentimes too milquetoast. And they`re looking for other
venues to see who is speaking on behalf of poor and working people.

SCHULTZ: This is what Congressman Allen West of Florida, a Tea
Partier, had to say about the 99 Percent Movement.


REP. ALLEN WEST (R), FLORIDA: Martin Luther King Jr. would not have
backed these type of protesters. First of all, Martin Luther King Jr. had
a focus and he had a message. And he was a divinely inspired. I don`t
know what the inspiration is for these individuals.


SCHULTZ: What is your response to that, Dr. Cornel West?

WEST: No, no, Brother West is wrong as he can be, that Martin Luther
King Jr. not only was fundamentally committed to movement, organizing,
mobilizing, but he was committed to civil disobedience. It was very clear
that when he saw the status quo was characterized by paralysis, a certain
kind of decay and even a certain kind of rot even, he said that we must
renew it.

We renew it by what? Bearing witness. Take for example what you were
talking about in regard to Gadhafi. Assassination, murder, execution,
killing. Is that the way to conduct foreign policy? Why did Abe Lincoln
say let us not execute Jefferson Davis? He had a wisdom there.

Is it the case that U.S. allies, be they tyrants like Pinochet in
Chile or tyrants like Mubarak in Egypt -- should they be executed? Should
they be murdered? No. There has to be another way.

And the problem is, though, Brother Ed, is that we`re only as strong
as our opponents. If, in fact, we use the same criteria of the Republican
party for Democratic foreign policy, then we`re going to find ourselves in
the same cycle of execution, cycle of assassination, and more and more
cycle of collective punishment.

As you know, those drones do actually -- when they drop those bombs,
they`re killing innocent members of families, even though it may be tied to
a terrorist in that home. They`re killing the daughter, the wife, the
sister. That`s wrong. They`re still innocent as human beings.

But they`re in a family with a terrorist. And so this issue of the
cycle of violence that Martin Luther King Jr. was concerned about is
something that the Occupy Movement is wrestling with right now in 1,000
cities and 82 countries and five continents.

And I`m telling you, Brother Ed, we know Republicans would say -- if
Barack Obama walked on water, they would say he can`t swim. OK. That`s a
given. But at the same time, we`ve got to have a different criteria than
the Republican party. We can`t just simply have the ricochet back and
forth, the mimicking of two mean-spirited Republicans, Democrats who we
hope would do better but we know they`re tear tied to the oligarchs too in
their own way.

The Occupy Movement says there must be another way of thinking about
this, even though we know, at the moment, we`re locked in. And of course,
we know Barack Obama is better than any of the mediocre Republican
candidates. But that`s not saying a whole lot, because, my God, you would
be a better candidate than any of those put together, brother.

SCHULTZ: Let`s not get carried away. Dr. West, stay with us now. I
want to ask you about President Obama`s jobs bill that was just voted down
in the Senate. Stay tuned. We`re back with more with Dr. Cornel West,
here on THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Once again, we`re joined by
Dr. Cornel West, professor at Princeton University. Dr. West, breaking
news, moments ago, the Senate Republicans blocked the jobs bill that would
have put 400,000 people to work, teacher and first responders,
firefighters, police officers.

What can President Obama do against this record amount of obstruction
he`s facing?

WEST: Yeah, it`s very sad, my brother. He has got to continue use
that bully pulpit and say I`m fighting for jobs in a serious way. He has
to use the executive orders to try to generate some mortgage relief that I
think he can do to link Fannie Mae and Freddie Mae. I think he has to use
the bully pulpit to deal with arbitrary police power.

SCHULTZ: Isn`t he doing that now?

WEST: -- disproportionately black and brown. You say what?

SCHULTZ: Isn`t he doing that now? He`s doing a bus tour. He`s out
there every today advocating for what has to be done for American workers.

WEST: Absolutely. But I think it has to go beyond just the bills.
He needs to link to it a much broader vision. And the vision has to be one
where it is perceived not simply to be obsessed with winning a re-election,
but also tied to in his heart, mind and soul he has these fundamental
convictions, and if he doesn`t get it out, the rocks are going to cry out.

He can`t be perceived just as a politician. You have to be a
statesman in these kinds of moments. You have to be a statesman who is
making an intervention into the mud that is characterized by so much of the
obstructionist Republican party. It can`t be tit for tat, tit for tat.

SCHULTZ: What do you want him to do?

WEST: You have to have a spiritual content and a moral character to
what you`re talking about.

SCHULTZ: You think he`s -- I got -- you think there`s too much
political congratulations on the part of the president? You think he`s
short on spirit and dedication?

WEST: Yeah, I think so. I think so, though, brother. For example, I
think that we should have talked about this jobs issue two and a half years
ago. It was very clear that working people were suffering, that people
were wrestling with mortgage collapses, with bankruptcies and so forth.

He was too bank friendly, too tied to Wall Street early on. The
health care bill, of course, a serious battle. I don`t think he fought as
hard as he should, but I give him credit for the relative victory that he
had. Rightly so.

But you have to show not just a passion but a certain sense of
priority. The suffering is real out there, Brother Ed. You know that. I
know that. He caught on late. He caught on late on this jobs issue.

And now people are wondering, is this just a re-election tactic rather
than something he feels in his bones. Now he may feel it but he has to
allow other people to feel it, too.

SCHULTZ: So you think what President Obama is doing right now is a
re-election tactic? I think he is very sincere about trying to create jobs
in this country, and especially the mess that he was handed. What do you
want him to do at this point? And will you support him in the next

WEST: I would like him to say that I have a vision that has to do
with the eradicating poverty. It has to do with not just a weak Dodd/Frank
bill vis-a-vis Wall Street, but a decentralizing of major banks, because if
they`re too big to fail, they`re too big to exist, which means they have
too much influence on Wall Street as well as in the White House.

He needs to have a Kingian vision, a Martin Luther King-like vision.
It`s not even just left or right. It`s just real moral, ethical and
wrestling with it.

SCHULTZ: We have to leave it there.

WEST: I see him still too tied to Wall Street, even given the
populist rhetoric. He`s so much better than the Republicans.

Yes, I refuse to satisfy -- be satisfied with candidates who are
better than Republicans. That`s like someone who is just better than me
singing in the shower. So what? No.

SCHULTZ: Dr. Cornel West, we`re up on time.

WEST: I want Frank Sinatra. I want Bing Crosby, brother. I want Nat
King Cole.

SCHULTZ: Always great you have to with us tonight. Thank you.

The righties say Vice President Joe Biden is making outrageous
comments about the American Jobs Act, but he`s really telling the truth
about what happens when police forces are cut. That`s next.


SCHULTZ: In our survey tonight, I asked you, will Republicans ever
give President Obama credit for anything? Two percent of you said yes; 98
percent of you said no.

Coming up, Vice President Joe Biden explains how fewer cops leads to
more crime. The right claims he`s using scare tactics. We`ll hear from
the police officer and the truth, next.


SCHULTZ: And the news late this evening, breaking news out of
Washington on the Obama jobs bill; Senate Republicans blocked the bill that
would have given states money to pay 400,000 teachers and first responders
across America. The bill would have taxed millionaires one half of one
percent earning over a million dollars a year.

Vice President Joe Biden had been making a common sense argument as he
traveled the country on behalf of the bill. Cutting the police force of
any locality almost always leads to a rise in crime. He took issue with
Republicans who say the jobs bill is just a temporary measure.


when that 911 call comes in and a woman is being raped and the cops show up
in time to prevent the rape. It is not temporary to that woman.

It is not temporary to the guy whose store is being held up and there
is a gun pointed at his head if a cop shows up and he is not killed.
That`s not temporary.


SCHULTZ: The vice president made similar comments in Flint, Michigan.
But the right wing has decided to twist his words. And a professional
ambusher asked him about it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you regret using a rape reference to describe
Republican opposition to the president`s bill?

BIDEN: I didn`t use -- no, no, no. What I said -- Let`s get it
straight, guys. Don`t screw around with me. Let`s get it straight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did use a rape reference?

BIDEN: Let me -- listen to me.


BIDEN: I said rape was up three times in Flint. They are the
numbers. Go look at the numbers. Murder is up, rape is up and burglary is
up. That`s exactly what I said.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if the Republicans don`t pass this bill, then
rape will continue to rise?

BIDEN: Murder will continue to rise. Rape will continue to rise.
All crimes will continue to rise.


SCHULTZ: And of course, Limbaugh is on his case.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You know, Biden`s real concern,
Joe Biden and any Democrat`s real concern is that after the rapist gets
caught, he can still vote Democrat.


SCHULTZ: Let`s bring in a detective with the Long Beach, New Jersey
Police Department, as well as the legal protection plan administrator for
the New Jersey Police Benevolent Association, Kevin Lyons. Mr. Lions, good
to have you with us tonight.

The news that this was not going to pass in the Senate, what`s your

government has forsaken one of its fundamental responsibilities. And
that`s to protect the public. The -- the Constitution provides that we`re
supposed to live in freedom and in a safe -- a safe environment.

That`s just not what they`re doing right now. We`re down in New
Jersey. We`re down 4,000 police officers alone since 2009.

SCHULTZ: Will crime go up because of this?

LYONS: It is a fundamental principle, absolutely. Crime goes up.
Less cops, more crime.

SCHULTZ: So Vice President Biden is spot on this?

LYONS: The 33,000 members of the New Jersey State PVA stand squarely
behind his comments.

SCHULTZ: And public polling is supporting this jobs bill and this
measure that would put 400,000 workers back to work in the classroom and
also in law enforcement. How does that make you fee as a public servant,
as yourself?

LYONS: Anybody -- certainly police officers in New Jersey feel that
our government has turned their backs us on as well as the public, that
they have a responsibility to take care of those who take care of others,
that we`re not the problem.

Their mismanagement of funds is what the problem is. And they`re
blaming it on us.

SCHULTZ: What do you say -- another claim being made by opponents out
there that you`re pension and your health care costs are the reason why
they have to make all these cuts?

LYONS: Preposterous. We just in New Jersey accepted about an eight
percent pay decrease, or what I call a tax on public employees, to fund
these things that have been squandered by the public officials.

SCHULTZ: So what has to happen? It would seem to me that the local
municipalities would have to raise taxes if they want more police officers.
Is that where we are?

LYONS: That`s their only option right now. The police officers in
New Jersey certainly have made thousands -- millions of -- thousands of
police officers have made millions of dollars in concessions over the past
several months.

SCHULTZ: Isn`t this going to over-work the force? Wouldn`t this be
so stressful, it might run people out of the profession?

LYONS: I think you see that to a degree. But I think inherently most
police officers want to help people and do whatever they have to do in
order to help them.

SCHULTZ: How is the public reacting to this? What are you hearing on
the street?

LYONS: I`ve heard both sides of the coin. I live in a fairly
conservative area. And people -- some people say I make too much, but
those were the same people laughing at my salary seven years ago.

SCHULTZ: The vice president says that crime will go up. You say it
will. Why can`t the Senate do what it`s supposed to do if that`s the case?

LYONS: Because of politics, plain and simple. They`re more concerned
about taxes than they are about safety. And once again, safety is an
incredibly important responsibility of the government.

SCHULTZ: Officer Kevin Lyons, thanks for joining us tonight.

LYONS: It`s my honor. Thank you.

SCHULTZ: That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed Schultz. Don`t forget, starting
Monday, THE ED show moves to its new time slot, 8:00 p.m. Eastern time.
Make sure you tune in.

"THE LAST WORD" with Lawrence O`Donnell starts right now. We`ll see
you Monday night.


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