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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Monday, November 21st, 2011

Read the transcript to the Monday show

Guests: Robert Reich, Steve Kornacki, Michael Moore, Kase Wheatley

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST: Great news, America. As of tonight, you`re
no longer being governed by a super committee.


reach an agreement.



AL SHARPTON, "POLITICS NATION" HOST: Protect the rich. Blame the


you take a bath.

MATTHEWS: I think the Congress ought to take a bath.

OBAMA: There will be no easy off ramps on this one.

MATTHEWS: That committee has announced it can`t reach a deal.

DYLAN RATIGAN, MSNBC HOST: The lowest congressional approval rating

MATTHEWS: Worst Congress ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know Republicans don`t want tax increases.

LUKE RUSSERT, NBC NEWS: Republicans will not see taxes go up under
any circumstances.

OBAMA: Fighting so hard to protect tax breaks for the wealthy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has been a war, it has been waged. The
victims essentially of that war are the 99 percent of the people in this

MATTHEWS: Campus police pepper spraying peaceful Occupy protesters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Militarization of our police department.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are being sprayed at pointblank range.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is absolutely disgusting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks pretty horrific.

GINGRICH: Go get a job right after you take a bath.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go back and get a job? What`s wrong with you?
It`s disgusting. It`s absolutely disgusting.

GINGRICH: Go get a job right after you take a bath.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone needs a bath and I don`t think it`s the
people from occupy Wall Street.

GINGRICH: Go get a job right after you take a bath.

MARTIN BASHIR, MSNBC HOST: It`s much easier to wash the body than it
is to cleanse the soul.

GINGRICH: Take over a public park they didn`t pay for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Support for Newt Gingrich continuing to grow among
Republican voters.

GINGRICH: Use bathrooms they didn`t pay for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The statistical tie of the lead.

MAYOR RAHM EMANUEL (D), CHICAGO: I`m beginning to miss the wisdom of
Sarah Palin.


O`DONNELL: When is the last time some of you Obama voters stood up
and cheered for the president?

Well, tonight`s your night. President Obama has mastered the
politics, the policy and the strategy of budget legislation better than any
president in history. That`s right -- any president in history. And he
proved that tonight with his brilliant veto threat after the supercommittee
announced the inevitable that it could not agree on future budget cuts.
Thereby, setting the clock ticking on the automatic budget cuts that have
been written into law in the event the super committee failed.


OBAMA: Already some in Congress are trying to undo these automatic
spending cuts. My message to them is simple: No, I will veto any effort to
get rid of those automatic spending cuts, domestic and defense spending.
There will be no easy off ramps on this one.


O`DONNELL: You see that? How surprised did the president look that
the super committee failed to reach an agreement? Not a bit surprised.
That`s right.

This committee was designed to fail and the president knew it, an
equal number of members, from each party, an equal number of members from
the House and the Senate. No tie-breaking representative from the Obama
administration involved.

Every Republican member of the supercommittee had signed a pledge not
to raise taxes in any way. Every Democratic member wanted to raise taxes
in some way. Failure was built into that design.

The cuts that will go into effect automatically will hit defense
heavily. Something many Democrats have long wanted to do but it will
protect Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, the most important programs
created by and constantly defended by Democrats. But most importantly,
most importantly, none of the automatic cuts triggered by the super
committee`s failure will take place until the January 1st that occurs after
the next presidential and congressional election.

The deal that created the supercommittee in the alternative automatic
cuts was part of a package which included immediate spending cuts reported,
reported at $900 billion in order to raise the debt ceiling -- something
that had previously never been a difficult or controversial thing to do
because Congress always knew that failure to raise the debt ceiling was not
an option.

At the outset of the debt ceiling saga, the president`s announced
position was that he would like to raise the debt ceiling in one simple,
one-sentence bill with nothing attached to it. In other words, the
president was in favor of exactly zero -- zero in deficit reduction in
order to raise the debt ceiling.

Now, let`s see how much deficit reduction the president has really
agreed to in order to raise the debt ceiling. Recall that the president
found himself drawn into a protracted negotiation with Congress including
House Republicans. The stagecraft at various times involved dramatic
exits. First by Eric Cantor, then by Jon Kyl, then by John Boehner as the
president`s offer on deficit reduction skyrocketed to a peak of $4
trillion. An offer that horrified some Democrats afraid of the spending
cuts but was, of course, rejected by House Republicans as the president
knew it would be because it included tax increases on the top tax bracket.

The president then feigned disappointment over the final Boehner
walkout, but the president knew that to voters, he appeared to be the
reasonable man looking for a solution while he was actually painting
Republicans into the absurdist corner of standing for nothing but low taxes
for the rich. And so, the supercommittee will cut no spending.

The automatic cuts will not take place until the beginning of the next
presidential term which should leave you wondering exactly how much
spending will be cut during President Obama`s first term in exchanged for
raising the debt ceiling?

The answer is $21 billion. That`s right. Not $4 trillion. Not $900
billion. Not some giant, horrible, onerous amount of spending cuts. Just
$21 billion.

That was the price. That is what the president actually did to
increase the debt ceiling.

So, the president will go into his re-election campaign having enacted
no cuts that are painful to his party or his political base. That he will
go into his re-election with the image of a president who has worked harder
than any other only to be stymied by an intransigent Republican Congress
that pledged its soul to a Republican anti-tax lobbyist even before they
took their oaths of office.

Barack Obama, the best budget strategist in presidential history? The
presidents who negotiated with congress before Social Security and Medicare
were working with budgets simpler than today`s state budgets. So don`t
even think about them.

And Lyndon Johnson, the last Democratic president to accomplish
anything great and lasting in domestic policy was able to do so because he
had massive Democratic majorities in the House and the Senate and most
importantly, because no one was counting how much it would cost. There was
no Congressional Budget Office. No one cared what the estimated cost of
Medicare was when it became law.

And no president prior to President Obama has suffered the burden in
his first term of facing an opposing party sworn simply to destroy him.


BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: You said, quote, "The single most important
thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term

That`s why single most important political goal, along with every active
Republican in the country.


O`DONNELL: And so, President Obama`s mastery of the do-nothing
Congress moves us ever closer to fiscal sanity, as long as Congress
continues to do nothing because if Congress continues to do absolutely
nothing, on January 1st, 2013, after the next presidential and
congressional election, all income tax rates will increase to the Clinton
income tax rates which this country fondly remembers as the tax structure
that delivered the golden decade of the 1990s.

And on that same day, $1.2 trillion in automatic spending cuts will go
into effect, landing largely on defense and leaving untouched Democrats`
most important programs -- and fiscal sanity will be restored in
Washington, thanks to a do-nothing Congress being outsmarted by a president
who mastered the budget process.

Joining me now are: "Washington Post" columnist and MSNBC analyst Ezra
Klein; and Robert Reich, former labor secretary in the Clinton
administration. He`s now professor of public policy at the University of
California at Berkeley, and the author of "Aftershock."

Thank you both for joining me tonight.

Bob, I for one am very happy with where this situation has ended up
with the super committee. How do you see it going from here?

about the tactical brilliance of the president in terms of pulling this
off. My only concern is this. The economy is still obviously awful. It
needs a fiscal boost, whether you call it a stimulus or you call it

And the president is not going to get it. The paralysis we`ve seen so
far is going to clearly continue right through Election Day, if not beyond,
which means that the expiration of unemployment extensions, that
unemployment benefit extension, and also the expiration of the payroll tax
cuts are going to eat into aggregate demand. There`s going to be less and
less aggregate demand. It`s going to be harder for any kind of a fiscal
boost to emerge.

I worry that even by the beginning of 2013, if you want to look ahead
beyond the election, the economy is still going to be very bad and there`s
not going to be any fiscal boost at all. Those cuts are frontloaded to
2013. It`s going to be very hard to get anything. I`m just, again,
concerned about jobs and the economy. It`s not such a big win.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what John Kerry had to say today, blaming
Grover Norquist.


SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Unfortunately, you know, this
thing about the Bush tax cuts and the pledge to Grover Norquist keeps
coming up. Grover Norquist has been the 13th member of this committee
without being there. I can`t tell you how many times we hear about the
pledge, the pledge. Well, all of us took a pledge to uphold the


O`DONNELL: And here`s Grover Norquist on "60 Minutes" in effect
taking at least some credit, accepting what John Kerry said.


GROVER NORQUIST: The Republicans won`t raise your taxes. We haven`t
had a Republican vote for an income tax increase since 1990.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was your doing?

NORQUIST: I helped. Yes.


SCHULTZ: Ezra, how are the Republicans feeling about that pledge to
Grover Norquist tonight?

EZRA KLEIN, MSNBC POLICY ANALYST: A lot of them aren`t feeling so
good. And I think one unnoticed part of the super committee negotiations
is that Republicans became less willing to compromise than they were a
couple months ago. Remember that in the deal between John Boehner and
Obama, the deal that was being struck behind closed doors, by the end, John
Boehner is willing to go with $800 billion in revenues. In this deal, the
highest Republicans ever got was the Toomey plan that had $300 billion in
actual new revenue.

So, they went down from there a$800 billion to $300 billion. But the
thing that worries me, Lawrence, I`m not sure the White House sees the Bush
tax cuts the way you do. When I talk to them, they do not seem to want
them to expire. They seem completely unwilling to let that happen. They
have their own pledge to never raise taxes on anybody making less than
$250,000 a year.

And if that`s going to be the case, it`s going to be between extending
most of the Bush tax cuts as Barack Obama`s current position is or
extending all of them, as the Republicans` position is, and the two end up
right there on the middle, I worry we`re not going to get fiscal sanity and
will have lost one of the only real chances we had to get back a revenue
base that could actually support the government going forward.

O`DONNELL: Bob, I agree with Ezra that the Democrats have gotten gun
shy about raising taxes. But we got a lot of time between now and when the
taxes automatically go up, and it seems to me that someone should start
making the case for what the world was under those Clinton tax rates and
just how they would effect across the board taxpayers, if they go into
effect. If you have this tax increase, for example, on the bottom bracket,
what is the practical effect of that, what is the real cost of that?

People should start doing the analysis of that from the Democratic
side so that day can prepare for the possibility of it happening, shouldn`t

REICH: Absolutely, Lawrence. You know, if you look at the upcoming
election, the president does have time to make the case to the public that
not only should taxes go up on the very wealthy, the small tax increases on
everybody else are going to be acceptable. That the biggest issue we face
over the long term is the budget deficit, but in the short term, this
election is going to be about jobs.

I mean, most people really are not into the details of the tactical
pros and cons of what the super committee did, what the Republicans are
doing. And most people don`t even know who Grover Norquist is. I mean,
most people are really still in the grips of a jobs recession and they want
this election to be about jobs, and about doing something about jobs.

I think the president has bought himself some time now to really sell
even a larger jobs agenda than he already has. And I hope he takes
advantage of that time and that opportunity.

O`DONNELL: Ezra, is the White House talking about any kind of jobs
agenda going forward?

KLEIN: Not beyond the American Jobs Act but they are talking about
the American Jobs Act. One thing that was interesting in the press
conference today was Obama was very clear. He said, look, Congress has a
year -- as you mentioned at the beginning, a year to figure out what to do
about deficit reduction if they don`t want the trigger. What they need to
do now a payroll tax cut and unemployment insurance because they expire at
the end of 2011 and also deal with infrastructure, as he put it, get
construction workers back to work.

So, I don`t know that they`ll be expanding their jobs agenda. I think
they`ve been very, very clear going forward they expect that to be where
Congress turns to and intend to force the issue at the end of the year
because it`s tough for Republicans to argue they can`t raise taxes on the
rich but can let the payroll tax cut expire for the working class.

O`DONNELL: Ezra Klein, Robert Reich, thank you both very much for
joining me tonight.

KLEIN: Thank you.

REICH: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up -- coming up, no one attacks Newt Gingrich
better than his fellow conservatives. You`re not going to believe what
George Will had to say about Newt. You`ve got to see this. That`s in the

And the continuing shockwaves from the video that swept the country
this weekend. Michael Moore and one of the students in the pepper spraying
cop`s line of fire will join me to discuss the protests at University of
California, Davis.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t hear much about me in the news because
the other candidates like Herman Cain and Rick Perry are hogging all the
headlines with sex scandals and woopsy daisies. My staff and I decided I
was too boring and therefore I should become 15 percent to 17 percent more

So, tonight, Mitt Romney is going to really let loose. Get ready for
Mitt Romney raw and unleashed.



O`DONNELL: Hours before the super committee formally announced it had
failed to reach a deal, the Republican presidential candidates were ready
to assign blame. Mitt Romney not surprisingly blamed President Obama who
was not a member of the supercommittee.


that the president of the United States would have spent every day and many
nights working with members of the super committee to try to find a way to
bridge the gap. But instead, he`s been out doing other things, campaigning
and blaming and traveling. This is, in my view, inexcusable.


O`DONNELL: The Herman Cain campaign released a statement reading in
part: "President Obama and his ultraliberal anti-job creating comrades in
the Democratic Party are apoplectic because Republicans are standing strong
with the American people, refusing to hike their taxes during Obama`s great

Newt Gingrich who now finds himself at or near the top of Republican
polls called the collapse of the super committee good for America.


GINGRICH: It`s important to understand it`s not that Washington is
inherently gridlocked, it is that the current players behaving in the
current way are inherently gridlocked. It`s part of the president`s fault,
part of the Congress` fault, but it`s a mess. And they were trying to
bring the alchemist (ph) by, candidly, in my judgment, being even dumber,
and that is creating a committee of 12 picked by the leadership to
magically get in a room to come up with something that 535 couldn`t solve.


O`DONNELL: And Michele Bachmann said something that I`m sure at least
made sense to her.


failure on the part of Democrats, Republicans, everyone, to meet this
challenge for the good of the country. Last summer, I said that all 535
members of Congress needed to sit down then and pay the interest on the
debt so that we wouldn`t go into a default. The problem with Congress is
that they don`t want to make a decision.


O`DONNELL: Joining me now, Steve Kornacki, columnist with
Steve, I find myself, to my amazement, in partial agreement with Newt
Gingrich. His point about that Congress made the mistake of making this
even worse by trying to break out of the mess he said by creating something
even dumber, a committee of 12 picked by political leadership to magically
get in a room and come up with something.

I am really glad on so many levels that this committee failed, because
if they had actually delivered something, that would become the new model
for Congress. Why should we do it when we can delegate it to a super
committee and claim to have no blame for it and give it procedural
protection and let it sail through the Senate and the House? I mean, we
just would have had this governing by super committee.

STEVE KORNACKI, SALON.COM: Right. Well, and, you know, I think you
have a point there, but I think the other point is this really was never
going to work. And it was something that was really kind of designed to
fail from the beginning. There were many reasons why.

One of the reasons is sort of what you just showed with all these
reactions from the Republican presidential candidates. I mean, I think the
reality is whether there was a deal in the super committee or whether it
ended up the way it ended up, every Republican presidential candidate was
basically going it be under pressure to say, you know, the super committee
failed and had done a terrible job and sold out, or it was threatened to
sell out conservative principles, Because that`s where the Republican Party
is today. That`s sort of been -- that`s the story of the supercommittee
negotiations. That`s the story of the 112th Congress.

It`s a Republican Party that decided at the beginning of the Obama
administration to really open up a two-front war, one war on Obama and his
administration. The second war on Republican Party establishment, which
they believe compromised too much, sold out conservative principles too
much for the previous decade and really enabled the rise of the Obama -- of
Barack Obama.

So, what that meant when you looked at the whole situation leading
into the super committee and the debt ceiling drama over the summer, it
meant basically that any deal that Republicans might strike with Obama
would be inherently suspicious to the Republican Party base. And there
would be a huge incentive for conservative leaders to call it a sellout, no
matter what was in it.

And then if you look closer than that, any deal Obama was going to
strike with Republicans would have to have included a significant revenue
component, you know, with revenues on the wealthy. And, you know, that,
you know, is another, that`s just an absolute sacred violation of sort of
conservative principle these days. You know, the idea of raising taxes on
anyone, let alone the rich.

So, I think, clearly, there was never going to be a deal that would
pass muster with the conservative base. If there was going to be a deal,
the Republican presidential candidates were going to have to oppose it and
we`re going to have to tell you how terrible it was, or we`re going to end
up where there is no deal and they`re going to come out and say basically
the same thing.

O`DONNELL: Steve, if there was a deal, it would take place in what we
would call the moderate section of each party. It would be the design of
moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans, a moderate Republican being
one who could somehow go along with some form of tax increase that
Democrats wanted. Are there any moderate Republicans out there?

KORNACKI: Yes. And this is the point I`m making about the evolution
of the Republican Party in the Obama era. I think there are two things to
keep in mind. The baseline statistic that I like to cite on this is,
there`s a political scientist who said at the beginning of this Congress
back in January, he looked at the 242 Republican members of the House and
he said that only three of those 242 could be considered moderates.

That is historically an absolutely tiny number.


KORNACKI: I think there are two reasons for that. One is, that in
the Obama era, we`ve seen the Republican Party move very far to the right
with the emergence of the Tea Party movement and there`s sort of this
interparty purity crusade that the Tea Party movement launched and lots of
very conservative Republicans won primaries in 2010 and because the general
election was so favorable to Republicans, just because of the economic
climate, a lot of them slipped into office.

You have more true believers than ever who are in office on the
Republican side now in Congress. But the second component is, among the
conservatives who are left who might have some pragmatic instincts, they
saw what happened in the 2010 midterms when one establishment Republican
after another lost in the primary. And it terrified them. They have no
incentive to compromise, they have every incentive to go along with the
true believers. And it makes the idea of moderates compromising

O`DONNELL: Wow. Not that long ago, most House Republicans were
moderates. Steve Kornacki, thank you very much for joining me tonight.


O`DONNELL: Coming up, you`ve seen the shocking video from U.C. Davis.
Later, we`ll be joined by one of the victims of the pepper spray assault of
the protesters there.

And Michael Moore will join us to give us his reaction to this
weekend`s developments in the Occupy movement.

And in the "Rewrite" tonight, conservatives attack Newt Gingrich.



O`DONNELL: In the Rewrite tonight, Republicans Rewrite Republican
front-runner Newt Gingrich. On Fox News last week, Newt Gingrich tried to
denied that he ever lobbied Congress.


kind. I never have. Very important point I want to make; I have never
done lobbying of any kind.

I was being paid to offer a series -- I did this, as I said, a while
ago, at a number of companies who would come in and asked for advice on a
wide range of things. As long as they were topics that I was interested in
and topics that I cared about, I was very happy to share ideas with people.

What I didn`t do, and would not do, is I didn`t go and lobby the


O`DONNELL: That was an amended version of something he said in the
cNBC Republican debate.


GINGRICH: I have never done any lobbying. Every contract that was
written during the period when I was out of the office specifically said I
would do no lobbying. And I offered advice. My advice as a historian,
when they walked in and said to me, we are now making loans to people who
have no credit history, and have no record of paying back anything, but
that`s what the government wants us to do -- I said to them at the time,
this is a bubble. This is insane. This is impossible.


O`DONNELL: Pulitzer Prize winning conservative columnist George Will
knows a historian when he sees one.


GEORGE WILL, "THE WASHINGTON POST: Gingrich is an amazingly efficient
candidacy in that it embodies almost everything disagreeable about modern
Washington. He`s the classic rental politician.

People think his problem is his colorful personal life. He`s going to
hope people concentrate on that rather than on, for example, ethanol. Al
Gore has recanted Ethanol. Not Newt Gingrich, who served the Ethanol

Industrial policy of the sort that got us Solyndra, he`s all for it.
Freddie Mac, he says, hired him as a historian. He`s not an historian.

When the Bush administration was trying to pass an unfunded, large
entitlement in the prescription drug -- drafting a prescription drug
entitlement on to Medicare, who was out there saluting this, as part of his
service I think big Pharma.

He denounces the Ryan budget as right wing social engineering. He
sits down to talk about climate trade and cap and trade with Nancy Pelosi
and others. The list goes on.


O`DONNELL: Hours after George Will hit Gingrich where it really
hurts, in the academic credentials, the conservative newspaper "The
Washington Examiner" ran an article entitled, "Newt Gingrich Was a
Lobbyist, Plain and Simple." "Three former Republican Congressional
staffers told me that Gingrich was calling around Capitol Hill and visiting
Republican congressmen in 2003 in an effort to convince conservatives to
support a bill expanding Medicare to include prescription drug subsidies.
One former House staffer told me of a 2003 meeting hosted by Representative
Jack Kingston, where Gingrich spoke and he brought one message to the
members, pass the drug bill for the good of the Republican party.

"Two aides to other GOP members who had been resisting the bill told
me their bosses were lobbied by Gingrich over the phone. sometimes citing
politics, sometimes citing substance. And it worked. Newt Gingrich moved
votes on the prescription drug bill, one conservative staffer told me.
That`s for sure."

Newt Gingrich is the new Herman Cain. They were both lobbyists. They
have both now enjoyed being front-runners in the Republican presidential
campaign. And they are both on their way to being losers.



MAY. MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), NEW YORK CITY: It had developed into a
situation which was prohibiting a lot of people from expressing their

STEPHEN COLBERT, "THE COLBERT REPORT": Clearly, their expression was
prohibiting other expression. After all, when a drum circle starts in
Zuccotti Park, all other music in New York stops.

Besides, the founders never intended indefinite free speech. They
assumed that after two weeks, any protest would be wiped out by Smallpox.



O`DONNELL: Today, the University of California at Davis police chief
was put on administrative leave pending a review of two officers` use of
pepper spray against Occupy protesters. The two officers, seen in this
video using pepper spray against protesters who sat on the ground with
linked arms, have also been placed on administrative leave.

More than 2,000 students and faculty members had a solidarity rally
today to speak out against the pepper spraying incident. The UC Davis
Faculty Association and students are now calling for the resignation of
Chancellor Linda Katehi. She has so far refused to resign and instead
offered this apology at the rally today.


LINDA KATEHI, UC DAVIS CHANCELLOR: I`m here to apologize. I really
feel horrible for what happened on Friday. If you think you don`t want to
be students in a university like we had on Friday, I`m just telling you, I
don`t want to be the chancellor of the university we had on Friday.

We need to work together. And I know you may not believe anything
that I`m telling you today, and you don`t have to. It is my responsibility
to earn your trust.


O`DONNELL: One of the students calling for the chancellor to resign
is my next guest, Kase Wheatley. He was one of the students pepper sprayed
and then later arrested last Friday. Kase, I want to take a look at what
happened to you on Friday. Here you are in this video. You`re talking to
an officer just before you`re pepper sprayed. Let`s watch this.


KASE WHEATLEY, OCCUPY PROTESTER: You`re shooting us for sitting here?
That`s fine, that`s fine.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back. Stay back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Protect yourself!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She isn`t resisting.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not doing anything.


O`DONNELL: Kase, what did the police tell you before they did that?

WHEATLEY: Right at that moment, they told me they were going to shoot
us for sitting there, for sitting there linking arms. They told us they
were going to shoot us. I assumed they meant rubber bullets or even pepper
spray balls, which are like paint ball guns. They never told us they were
going to spray us with the pepper spray, especially, like, a foot from our
face. They never said anything about that.

O`DONNELL: Kase, when it was happening, did you get the feeling that
the police officers knew what the effect of that spray was on you? I mean,
they were just drenching you in that stuff.

WHEATLEY: I mean, I assume since it`s their job to kind of serve and
protect that they kind of know what they`re doing and they kind of know the
kind of weapons they use. But I guess in this case, it was military-grade
pepper spray. It`s like the new and improved model that hurts even more
and lasts even longer.

So no, I don`t think they had any idea what they were talking about.
I called the police station later that night around midnight, because my
body was still burning. My face was still burning. My hands were still
burning. I couldn`t sleep. I asked them, what am I supposed to do? How
am I supposed to prevent the burning from take place in my body? They had
no idea.

So I called advice nurses. I called everyone. I couldn`t sleep until
4:00 in the morning. My hands and face were still burning the next day.

O`DONNELL: Kase, I didn`t really see provocation there for them to
begin the pepper spray. So, I don`t -- in a way, I don`t understand why
they stopped. Why did they stop the spray?

WHEATLEY: Why did they stop the spraying? I assume maybe the crowd`s
reaction to it was overwhelming and maybe something clicked in John Pike`s
mind, the officer who sprayed us, that this was not the right thing. I
want to hope that these cops -- they are people. They are humans. They
have consciences -- consciences? I guess maybe it`s not true. I don`t

I hope they do. I don`t know why he did it in the first place. I
don`t know why he stopped at that point. But clearly they were trying to
make an example of us as to kind of crush any political dissent on this
campus, to -- basically our reason for doing it was to kind of protest the
police brutality that occurred on UC Berkeley campus and to protest the fee
hikes that we`ve been facing over the past five-plus years.

And this is kind of ironic that we are protesting police brutality and
this is their response to it.

O`DONNELL: Kase, I want to bring in filmmaker and activist Michael
Moore. As you know, he`s been active in this protest all the way through.
Michael, I want you to join us. And please tell Kase and tell us where you
see this incident in the history of this movement so far.

just say to Kase, I`m really sorry that this happened to you. This is not
what is supposed to happen in the United States of America.


MOORE: And the fact that our police departments, now even campus
police departments, have been turned into armies -- they`ve been


MOORE: Mostly through grants from the Department of Homeland
Security. And actions like this now are occurring, it seems like, every
day, all across the country. But I want to say that what you did there --
what happened there at UC Davis, which, by the way, is -- my sister is a
graduate of UC Davis. It was just 11 of you sitting there, 11. Just 11.

This wasn`t a demonstration of 30,000. This wasn`t a large encampment
of 200 tents in Portland. This was just 11 students in a not very well
known UC campus. And the images of this have resonated around the world in
the same way that the lone young man standing in front of the tanks at
Tiananmen Square resonated.

This will be an iconic moment in this Occupy Wall Street movement,
which clearly now has shifted to an even larger movement on campuses. And
I think that people will remember months or years from now that UC Davis
was the moment that Occupy Wall Street went to the college campuses. And
this is going to just spread like wildfire I think across campuses in the

WHEATLEY: I hope so. I really hope so.

O`DONNELL: Kase Wheatley, can you please stay with us through this
break? We`re going to continue this conversation after the break. If you
can stay with Michael Moore on the show here. We`re going to be back with
more on the Occupy protests around the country right after this.


O`DONNELL: Rejoining me now is Michael Moore, Academy Award winning
film maker, activist, and the author of the "New York Times" best seller,
"Here Comes Trouble, Stories From My Life." Also joining me, Kase
Wheatley. He was one of the students pepper sprayed at UC Davis.

Kase, you`ve called and the faculty has called for the resonation of
the chancellor. She has apologized. Is her apology good enough?

WHEATLEY: No, not at all. Not at all. I -- I think they`re empty
words. I think -- I -- to be honest, I think the chancellor is very
similar to a robot. I think people feed her things to say and then she
regurgitates them.

I don`t want to hear any apologies. I don`t accept her apology. I
want her resignation. And I want a process where a new chancellor can be
democratically elected, just like the regents. I want everyone in this
system democratically elected, so we have say into who is governing our
university, our lives.

O`DONNELL: Michael Moore, what would you say to the chancellor and to
other mayors, and others, police chiefs around the country who have allowed
these kinds of things to happen on their watch?

MOORE: Well, I agree with Kase. She`s got to go. And the mayors,
sadly, many of them Democrats, who have been responsible for siccing the
police forces on peaceful, non-violent protesters -- I think they should
all be removed from office.

It is absolutely disgusting and appalling where these -- these police
forces across the country have not arrested a single banker, a single loan
shark, a single health insurance executive. I mean, thousands of
protesters now have an arrested who were just exercising their democratic
rights as citizens. But people who stole the futures of young people like
Kase, people who have rigged the system of student loans to where someone
like Kase and his fellow students are going to be in hoc 20 or 30 years
paying off student loans, whereas if they were a student in any other
western democracy, they`d never have to worry about this sort of thing.

I just -- I just wonder when the police are going to start arresting
the real criminals. Simple question.

O`DONNELL: Michael, I want to get your reaction to the imagery of
this. You`ve -- your life`s work is assembling images to deliver important
messages. And now we are collecting a body of imagery about this movement.
That first shocking piece I saw was pepper spray in Manhattan, on
protesters, on a weekend protest there. Now we have this latest

And tell us how this kind of building file of imagery tells the story
compared to what we are hearing when mayors and others make their
statements about it, or when Newt Gingrich makes his statement about people
like Kase should go take a bath and then go get a job. There`s that --
there`s an imagery here, a visual imagery that`s in a kind of battle with
some verbal stuff that is pouring out here.

MOORE: Yeah. Yes. First of all, when Gingrich says they should take
a bath, I think that`s actually what the UC Davis police officers were
trying to do. They were literally bathing them with this pepper spray. I
think, frankly, the reason that they stopped pepper spraying them is
because they ran out. They had just unloaded everything in those

You can see them in the footage starting to shake the can because he
can`t get more out of it, because he wanted to bathe them more with this
pepper spray.

So -- but I`ll tell you, the police in New York, the police in Davis,
California, doing this to nonviolent citizens -- if you were writing the
script for this, you would actually write this in, or if you were in the
protest movement and trying to build the protest movement, you would try to
-- you would say, how do we get the police to behave in this manner?

Because when they do, this thing is just going to explode across the
country. It`s the most insane thing. And this has been said not just by
me but many people in the last few weeks. And yet they continue to do it
over and over again. Each time they do, the students at UC Davis now have
solidarity movements in support of them all across the country.

There are students calling, I think next Monday, for a general strike
on the UC campuses in California. And I`m just -- I`m excited by our young
people these days.

And frankly, if you don`t mind, I`d like to ask Kase a question. It -
- you know, our generation -- I`m part of the baby boom generation. When
we were your age, our goal was to create a better world that you would
have. You would be left with this better world. You would have a better
life than the life that we had.

That didn`t happen. You -- it has been set up now for you to have a
worse life, to have a harder life, to not have the things we enjoyed. I`m
just curious how you feel about this, where you`ve inherited, for instance,
the billions and trillions of dollars of debt from the two wars that were
started in the last decade? You and your children are going do be paying
for those. I`m just curious how this, you know, feeds into everything
you`re thinking about these days?

WHEATLEY: Well, I guess -- I mean, I was actually telling my family
this the other day, my whole life, the economy has gotten worse. Education
has become harder and harder to afford. It`s become more elitist, more

We`ve gone into two, three, four plus wars. I mean, my whole life,
there`s been nothing on the news but bad news. I`m sad about it. But at
the same time, as you can see behind me, there`s a camp building. We`re
trying to educate people. We`re trying to have a dialogue between people
where we can come together and actually look for solutions to these issues.

Something I want to say, on our Facebook, Occupy UC Davis, you can
donate to our cause. We need tents. We need food. We need all sorts of
supplies. We want to make this big. We want to make this stay on. So,
yeah, thank you for having me on the show.

O`DONNELL: Michael Moore -

MOORE: Are you going back with your tents tonight?

O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Michael, just finish that.

MOORE: No, I was just curious-


O`DONNELL: We`re going to get you guys talking off screen.
We`re going to have to wrap it there. We`re going to be done for the
night, but you guys can talk off screen. "THE ED SHOW" is next.


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