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The Ed Show for Wednesday, April 11, 2012

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Guests: Al Sharpton, Ben Jealous, Lilly Ledbetter, Bob Shrum, Daryl Parks, Mike
Papantonio, Dan Gelber

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED SHOW
tonight from New York.

Forty-five days after the killing of Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman
has been arrested. Special prosecutor Angela Corey announced Zimmerman is
in custody and is charged with second-degree murder.


ANGELA COREY, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Today, we filed an information
charging George Zimmerman with murder in the second degree. A capias has
been issued for his arrest. With the filing of that information and the
issuance of a capias, he will have a right to appear in front of a
magistrate in Seminole County within 24 hours of his arrest and thus formal
prosecution will begin.


SCHULTZ: Corey and her team decided they have enough evidence to
prosecute Zimmerman under a second-degree murder charge.

In Florida, the state must prove these three elements beyond a
reasonable doubt to get a conviction on a second-degree murder. One, the
victim is dead. Two, the death was caused by a criminal act of the
defendant. And three, it was an unlawful killing by a dangerous act, the
defendant demonstrated a depraved mind without regard for human life.

If Zimmerman is found guilty, he could face life in prison.

Angela Corey was appointed as special prosecutor to Trayvon Martin`s
case on March 23rd. She said there is only one objective in this case.


the fact that the state decided to charge him. But I`ve talked to him
about the process. I think anyone who would be charged with second-degree
murder would be scared.


SCHULTZ: George Zimmerman is being held without bail. He has the
right to seek bail in a hearing. Zimmerman`s new attorney, Mark O`Mara,
says his client will plead not guilty.

Prosecutor Angela Corey spoke about navigating this case after it has
played out in public.


COREY: We have rules of criminal procedure, Florida statutes and
rules of ethics. So much information got released on this case that never
should have been released. We have to protect this investigation and this
prosecution for Trayvon, for his family, and for George Zimmerman and
that`s what we will continue to do.


SCHULTZ: The parents of Trayvon Martin watched Corey`s news
conference from Washington, D.C. They spoke to the press shortly after the
charges were announced.


SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S MOTHER: We simply wanted an arrest.
We wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest.

And we got it. And I say thank you. Thank you, Lord. Thank you,

I just want to speak from my heart to your heart, because a heart has
no color. It`s not black, it`s not white. It`s red.

hands on this journey, white, black, Hispanic, Latino. We will continue to
walk, we will march and march and march until the right thing is done.


SCHULTZ: Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump thanked the public
for keeping attention on this case and forcing investigators to take
another look.


had been killed, a child who was Sybrina`s baby, was Tracy`s son, had been
killed. And you thought that if this was my child, I would sign this

So, thank you for signing that petition -- and to all those young
people, all the young people, the people who marched, the people who stood
up, who refused to look away.


SCHULTZ: This is the arrest many people in this country have been
demanding, since the killing of Trayvon Martin became public more than a
month ago. The justice system will now take over. Today`s mark certainly
the beginning of justice for Trayvon Martin, certainly not the end.

Let`s turn to Daryl Parks, attorney for the family of Trayvon Martin.

Mr. Parks, thanks for your time tonight.

What are your emotions at this hour? This has been a long month, no
question about it, very intense. Media scrutiny, no stone left unturned.
This has to be a very emotional moment for not only the family, but the

What are you experiencing?

DARYL PARKS, MARTIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Oh, Ed, it was a tremendous
day. I have to tell you, when we talked to Angela Corey on the cell phone,
just minutes before when she told us that she had made the decision to
charge, to be in that room with Sybrina and Tracy and all of the emotion
that they had.

I mean, it was overwhelming, to be honest with you -- the love, the
sorrow, the heartfelt that their son`s death was finally going to get the
due attention from this system that it demanded. And all of the energy
that they had went through this past 45 days culminated with them sitting
in a room with a cell phone, and the prosecutor assuring them that they
were moving forward, that she had done her investigation --


PARKS: -- had seen all of the evidence. It was -- it was a very
humbling, sorrowful moment that justice had finally come.

SCHULTZ: Mr. Parks, I want your unvarnished opinion here on why we
are here talking about this tonight. Was it the advocacy work? Was it the
media? Was it the petition? Was it the demonstrations? The social media?

All of it that played into it -- why are we with here tonight? Why
are we at this point?

PARKS: We`re here because of all of it. We`re here, number one,
because Tracy Martin, when he heard the facts from the Sanford Police
Department, he did not buy it. He felt let down.

And when he contacted Patricia Jones, a local lawyer there in Miami
and said, hey, we need help, she called our firm. My law partner got on
this case and he told Tracy -- Tracy, you`re not going to need us. And we
had to file a lawsuit. We had to file a lawsuit just to get the 911 tape.

And Chief Bill Lee called us, and he still wasn`t willing to do the
right thing. But Mayor Triplett knew that it was wrong, due to his credit.
And he made sure those 911 tapes were released.

SCHULTZ: So, we started with a father who thought there was a
terrible injustice that played out and took the life of his son. That`s
where it all started.

PARKS: That`s where it all started, Ed.

SCHULTZ: And here`s what Angela Corey said about her meeting with
the Martin family.


COREY: We did not promise them anything. In fact, we specifically
talked about if criminal charges do not come out of this, what can we help
you do to make sure your son`s death is not in vain?


SCHULTZ: It`s a hard question to ask, but is there a level of
satisfaction? I mean, did they throw the book at George Zimmerman? Are
you professionally satisfied with the way this is setting up right now?

PARKS: Yes, we are. And, you know, there are different courses that
you can take in this. I think that the charge that she had made is a good

Let me make a very important point, though, Ed. This family is not
gloating in what`s going on.

SCHULTZ: No, I understand.

PARKS: Because this is a tragedy.


PARKS: But I think from a professional standpoint, that charge, it`s
a good charge. A little bit better than I originally thought,
manslaughter. And so, for her to charge second-degree murder is good.
Obviously, she`s now seen more than I`ve been privileged to.

So, obviously, she saw something there that was a little bit more --
convincing to her.


And what is your instinct right now, Mr. Parks? I mean, we`ve seen
some high-profile murder trials play out in the media in this country. You
know, years ago, the Simpson trial. What level is this trial going to be
at? And are you confident that there will be a conviction?

PARKS: I`m very confident there`ll be a conviction, Ed.

Let me say this right. We try cases all the time. And in this
particular case, you know, the law is so, so. I think even despite the
law, I think we`ll still get a conviction.

However, any person sitting on a jury in this case, when they hear
all the evidence that one guy is armed, one guy`s not, that`s wrong. I
mean, people get it.

And that`s why I don`t care who you are, what color you are, what
political affiliation, when an armed man kills us an unarmed man, that`s
wrong. You can say --

SCHULTZ: So, are we going to see this played out in front of the
country with the media scrutiny that we`ve seen with other trials? I mean,
could this be the trial of the decade?

I mean -- and the reason why I ask that is because of the "Stand Your
Ground" law, because of the issues of race and injustice that was, I think
was played out early on in this. And how hard it was for your team to get
the wheels of justice rolling on this? What about the profile of this

PARKS: The case is extremely -- I mean, it`s as high profile as a
case gets. I think, though, that the judge in this case will take firm
control of the case. I think, luckily, Seminole County sits right next to
Orlando. So most of our judges have had a chance to have exposure to other
judges that have had high-profile cases.

So whoever the judge may be -- and you can narrow it down pretty
well. In fact, I started talking with one of our local counsel, Natalie
Jackson, that there are probably three or four judges sitting on the felony
bench in Seminole County. So we could start narrowing it down right now
who might possibly get this case as early as, you know, tomorrow. So,
that`s where we`re headed.

SCHULTZ: Daryl Parks, thanks for your time tonight.

PARKS: Thank you.

SCHULTZ: Joining me now is Reverend Al Sharpton, host of "POLITICS
NATION" here on MSNBC and the president of the National Action Network.

Reverend, great to see you tonight.


SCHULTZ: The family asked you to get involved. That`s how you got
involved in this.

But I have to give me take on this is that I really believe this in
my heart. Had it not been for your involvement, your reporting, your
advocacy work, the National Action Network, I`m not sure that we would be
where we are tonight. And you have been somewhat of a target of criticism
in the mix of all of that.

Where are we at right now -- we`re at different stages, there`s been
an arrest, there`s charges, and we move forward from here. What are your
emotions at this hour, Reverend?

SHARPTON: Well, I`m very happy that the family has been given at
least the dignity of seeing the killer of their son arrested. And I said
to them from the beginning when attorney Crump called me and I didn`t know
a case and most of the country didn`t, and we got involved. It was going
to be hard. And they`re going to attack.

I`d rather the attacks come on me. That`s what I do as an activist,
that`s what I do hosting a show -- as others do when they pick up cases on
shows around the cable world. I`d rather come on me than the family,
because I think that you have no idea how vicious people can be. And they
now do have that idea and it`s far from over.

Tonight, I`m at National Action Networks convention and the family of
Amadou Diallo came who we fought for and they ended up seeing these people
that kill third son acquitted. So I told them there`s nothing guaranteed.

I think the first step, I was surprised that the special prosecutor
here did charge the way she did. But we still now get -- must get by the
second hurdle now, the judge not throwing this out based on "Stand Your
Ground". And I think then a trial.

I think the good news is, by this charge tonight, it affirms what all
of us, not only National Action Network, but all of the groups and all of
the people that were on social media and all of the nameless people that
were not part of the groups that put hoodies on and marched all over the
world said what we said. There was probable cause. That`s all we said.

There was probable cause. I think that was affirmed tonight and I
think that we could be happy about that, but we cannot relax in pursuing to
find out the truth and where justice lies in this case.

SCHULTZ: Al, do you think that this trial -- this whole scenario
that`s being played out, is going to have a profound effect on society,
profound effect on our justice system? How big is this going to be?

SHARPTON: I think it`s going to be very big. One, I think that the
"Stand Your Ground" law is going to really be put under real scrutiny.
There was leaders today that met and pledged to work across party lines on
that. And when you deal with the fact that you got over 20 states with
that law, and other states including New York looking at some variation of
the law, you have social implications to this trial.

You have, of course, the case of dealing with self-defense. You`ve
got race. There`s going to be a lot of elements that will make this a
major trial.

But the implications of the trial will be far reaching, which is why
we have appealed for people to be very civil and sober around this, and not
give to just reckless rhetoric, less not reckless behavior, because this
family is committed that Trayvon be remembered for something that
contributed, concretely, to progress in society and not just be something
remembered as something that was divisive and destructive. And I think we
have an opportunity to do that if we take the high road.

SCHULTZ: And how important was it, reverend, to have a second-degree
murder charge and not manslaughter?

SHARPTON: I think it was very important. I think that it says that
this prosecutor believes that there`s something that really, really was
criminal here. We don`t know all that she has.


SHARPTON: We don`t know what she reviewed that may not have come to
light. She`s certainly not one that tries it in public. So I think even
all of us that was very much in support of seeing an arrest and a charge,
but her doing this, we`re saying there must be some things that we don`t

And that`s fine. We`re not trying to be the lawyers or the
prosecutors. We wanted to make the society and the criminal justice system
take a second look at this. They have and these are the results.

SCHULTZ: Reverend Al Sharpton, thanks for your time on THE ED SHOW
tonight. Great work. Thank you.

SHARPTON: Thank you, Ed.

SCHULTZ: Coming up, what will it take to convict George Zimmerman of
second-degree murder? I`ll talk to Attorney Mike Papantonio and former
prosecutor, Dan Gelber.

And the fight to repeal "Stand Your Ground" laws is officially on in
America. Ben Jealous of the NAACP is leading the charge. He`ll join me

And there is a lot more to come.


MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The real war on women has
been waged by the Obama administration`s failure on the economy.

SCHULTZ (voice-over): Mitt Romney gets caught lying through his
teeth about the war on women. And his campaign can`t answer a simple

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does Governor Romney support the Ledbetter Act?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll get back to you on that.

SCHULTZ: The one and only Lilly Ledbetter is responding. And
tonight, she is my exclusive guest.

And Congressman Allen West is officially off the rails, fear-
mongering about a new red scare in Washington.

REP. ALLEN WEST (R), FLORIDA: I believe there`s about 78 to 81
members of the Democratic Party who are members of the communist party.

SCHULTZ: You won`t believe how the West campaign is trying to spin
this tape.



SCHULTZ: Coming up, what will it take to convict George Zimmerman of
second-degree murder? Former prosecutor Dan Gelber and Attorney Mike
Papantonio weigh in on that next.

The Trayvon Martin case has put "Stand Your Ground" laws on scrutiny.
Now, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and others are calling for
reform. Ben Jealous of the NAACP joins me for that discussion.

And Congressman Allen West`s red scare. He says there are communists
in Congress. Find out who he`s talking later in this hour.

Share your thoughts on Twitter using #EdShow. We`re right back.



O`MARA: He is troubled by everything that has happened. And I could
not imagine living in George Zimmerman`s shoes for the past number of


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

That was George Zimmerman`s attorney, Mark O`Mara. George Zimmerman
has been officially charged with second-degree murder and is in police
custody in Florida.

Florida State Attorney Angela Corey clearly dealt with the possible
claim of self-defense in her decision.


COREY: All murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murders.
And Florida`s law clearly says that if there is the affirmative defense of,
for example, excusable homicide or justifiable homicide, that should be
determined before you go to the degree of the crime. This case is just
like many of the shooting deaths we`ve had in our circuit.

If "Stand Your Ground" becomes an issue, we fight it -- if we believe
it`s the right thing to do. So if it becomes an issue in this case, we
will fight that affirmative defense.


SCHULTZ: I`m joined tonight by Dan Gelber, a former Florida state
senator and a former federal prosecutor. And Mike Papantonio, attorney,
host of "The Ring of Fire" radio show, ands also president of the National
Trial Lawyers Association.

Gentleman, thanks for your time again tonight.

Mike, you first. Let me get your take on what has unfolded here in
the last several hours. Where does it stand right now? How hard is it
going to be to get a conviction based on what you see?


SCHULTZ: I think we`re having -- OK, go ahead.

PAPANTONIO: The argument, as a matter of law, is whether or not this
follows within an immunity that Zimmerman has that a judge can`t as a
matter of law say, look, this doesn`t even go to trial. Preliminary
hearing could actually solve that problem.

The second issue is very clear, Ed. The second issue is, this is --
a second-degree murder is not a walk in the park where it comes to proof.
They`re going to have to show there`s an unlawful killing. That means that
it wasn`t justifiable homicide.

Second of all, that it was done with a depraved mind. And when you
consider what a depraved mind is in Florida, what they`re talking about is
extreme indifference to human life, malice. Actually, it goes as far as
saying that it`s a person so lacking in ordinary judgment that their
conduct rises to extreme indifference.

So this is not an easy charge. This isn`t something that`s a walk in
the park. If you add to that the many defenses that right now that this
defense lawyer has, if it goes to trial, when with it goes to trial, with
the failures of the police department, the failures of the state attorney`s
office, in the end, the police department in Sanford is going to be on
trial, Ed. This is going to be a classic example of a police department
that has some answering to do.


Well, Mr. Gelber, the third criteria, there was an unlawful killing
of a victim by an imminent danger to another and demonstrating a depraved
mind without regard for human life.

He disregarded a lot of things. These are the three criteria. I
mean, we could listen to the 911 tapes and he didn`t listen to the
dispatcher who told him not to follow him, which I think -- I personally
believe that the word "intent" is going to come into play here at some time
or another. What was his intent when he left the vehicle with a firearm?

But Mr. Gelber, from what you can see right now, is it going to be
hard, in your professional opinion, to get a conviction on second-degree

DAN GELBER (D-FL), FMR. STATE SENATOR: Well, second-degree murder,
it may be a little difficult, simply because it is a fairly precise intent.
It`s very likely, though, that there`ll be a lesser included of
manslaughter, which is a very serious felony in Florida when it`s with a
weapon. And that`s an easier standard.

So you may see that the jury is trying to debate the different
elements to determine whether or not Mr. Zimmerman committed the crime.

Now, remember something -- the "Stand Your Ground" law`s going to
play a big part of this. Because even if you get past -- even if the state
gets past that initial judge hearing, which is what they`ll have to do,
that "Stand Your Ground" law is still part of the jury instruction that`s
given to the jury. So they`re going to be told as long as Mr. Zimmerman
was where he could be lawfully, and he felt reasonable -- and of course,
the only other person who was right there is deceased, he`s going to have
the benefit of that stand your ground instruction. Whether or not the jury
buys it or not, at that point, is another question.

SCHULTZ: Here is the prosecutor talking about the venue this
afternoon. Here it is.


COREY: Seminole County is absolutely the venue. When we`re
appointed as prosecutors, we step in to the prosecution role down in
Seminole County. So right now, it is the court of jurisdiction, it is the

The question was, did we think we`d be able to try the case there, or
I thought -- was that your question, Bob? OK. Did we think we`d be able
to try it there? That`s a determination that will be made closer to if and
when we pick a jury.


SCHULTZ: And there is breaking news. This is at the Seminole County
intake center. George Zimmerman arriving at the police facility.

This is George Zimmerman arriving at the Seminole County intake
center, and, somebody, give me some directions. Is this a live shot or was
this moments ago? This is a live shot right now inside the Seminole County
intake center. And that is George Zimmerman. That is the only shot that
we have seen of him since he has been charged with second-degree murder.

So, Mike Papantonio, I asked you the question last night about the 72
hours. It seemed like they had all their bases covered from law
enforcement as to how they were going to handle this, and it has come off
without a circus. Your thoughts?

PAPANTONIO: She`s done a -- this prosecutor has done a very good
job, both positioning herself from the standpoint of going forward with
trial, by setting this up to where it has a calming nature about the way
she`s done this.

We have a lot to be proud of, of what she`s done here. You could
tell in her early description of what`s taken place, she`s trying to defend
the Seminole Police Department, the Sanford Police Department. She`s
trying to say, look, they did the best they could do.

She`s trying to be -- she`s trying to make bridges here. And I`ve
got to tell you something. As I listen to her and as I listen to where
she`s probably really heading, I`d have to agree with Mr. Gelber. Second-
degree is not -- maybe is not where she`s going, but she knows she has the
lesser included of manslaughter. It puts this attorney in the position of
understanding, if he goes to trial on a manslaughter with a firearm, Ed, he
could be looking at 30 years in the state of Florida.

It puts him in a tough posture of having to negotiate, number one,
and second of all, it puts the prosecutors in a perfect position to say to
the jury, you may not buy the second-degree murder, but let me tell you why
you should have a conviction of manslaughter. It`s textbook. She`s done a
great job positioning this case.

SCHULTZ: And of course, we will be talking about it a lot.

Dan Gelber, Mike Papantonio, thank you for your time tonight.
Appreciate it.

A new group wants to eliminate stand your ground laws in 25 states
across America. More on the arrest of George Zimmerman, next.

Rick Santorum told supporters that they`d be better off voting for
President Obama over Mitt Romney. Now, he has ended his bid for the GOP
nomination. Will he go back on his word and support the Mittster?

Stay tuned.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. It`s not just about Trayvon
Martin. It`s about Stand Your Ground laws in 25 states across this
country. Critics call these laws a license to kill. Today, New York Mayor
Michael Bloomberg joined civil rights groups to reform or repeal existing
Stand Your Ground Laws and to defeat similar proposals in other states.

Mayor Bloomberg hit it front and center. He called out the National
Rifle Association.


target. And it succeed in pushing the bill through the legislature, over
the objections of leading police and law enforcement leaders. In reality,
the NRA`s leaders weren`t interested in public safety. They were
interested in promoting a culture where people take the law into their own
hands and face no consequences for it.

Let`s call that by its real name, vigilantism.


SCHULTZ: Bloomberg said the right to self-defense was already well
established and Stand Your Ground laws were not necessary and led to
horrible consequences.


BLOOMBERG: Instead, they justify civilian gun play and invite
vigilante justice and retribution with disastrous results.


SCHULTZ: And the mayor of New York offered the example of three big
states. Florida averaged 12 justifiable homicides per year before Stand
Your Ground Law was passed. But after the legislation was passed, so-
called justifiable homicide jumped to 34 per year on average.

In Georgia, so-called justifiable homicides doubled. In Texas, a
similar result.

Let`s turn to Ben Jealous, president and CEO of the NAACP. Ben, good
to have you with us tonight.

BEN JEALOUS, NAACP, PRESIDENT AND CEO: Thank you, good to be here.

SCHULTZ: Now, this Trayvon Martin case has brought forth a
conversation that I think we`ve never had before about Stand Your Ground.
It`s put it front and center. ALEC, obviously, has been very involved.
The National Rifle Association has been very involved.

Are we set to have a legislative war in this country? What do you see
coming down the pike?

JEALOUS: First, let me say on this night, given the news that has
happened between that press conference and this moment, that my heart
really goes out to Trayvon`s family. This is a great moment. And it is
the beginning of a journey towards justice. And it`s a journey we have
wanted to be on. As Reverend Sharpton said, this is a moment for relief,
but not a moment to relax.

With that said --

SCHULTZ: Ben, I want to show you, this is the video of George
Zimmerman arriving at the Seminole County Intake Center just moments ago.
First your reaction to the charge of second-degree murder brought against
George Zimmerman.

JEALOUS: Yeah, look, I think that`s a good thing. I think that it --
you know, we were concerned that they may come out with manslaughter today.
And so it`s good to see her come out with second degree. My understanding,
this is the maximum that she could pursue without the Grand Jury. And it`s
a very serious charge.

We have said all along, he should be charged with murder. This is
being charged with murder.

SCHULTZ: Here`s more from the state attorney about Stand Your Ground


COREY: They fight these Stand Your Ground motions. Mr. Moody just
finished a four-day full Stand Your Ground motion on another case. We
fight hard. Some of them we`ve won and we`ve had to appeal them or the
defense has appealed, and we`ve won it on appeal. Some we fought hard and
the judge ruled against us. That`s happening to prosecutors all over the


SCHULTZ: I mean, this is making the landscape pretty tough for a
conviction. Now, moving forward, what`s the game plan to get it repealed
in 25 states across the country?

JEALOUS: Well, look, we need to have an honest conversation. I think
the reality is that until this case happened -- and let`s be clear, in this
case, the issue is frankly the gross misinterpretation of this law. But,
you know, until this case happened, the country wasn`t talking about it.
People didn`t realize that these laws are actually wild, wild west laws.
These are shoot to kill laws -- these are shoot first laws.

These laws say basically look, if one drug dealer is packing and the
other one`s packing and they both get scared, they can both shoot at each
other lawfully. There`s been cases that -- where literally thugs, violent,
armed thugs have been let off because they got scared.

And so we absolutely need to have a conversation about this. We need
to get rid of these laws. But at the same time, we need to be clear that
if we`re going to prevent more Trayvon Martins, we have to deal with racial
profiling. We have to deal with black men`s lives, frankly, not being
valued by the cops in the same way.

So this is the beginning, I would say, of a series of pushes that you
will see coming out of this case. One of them to get rid of Stand Your
Ground Laws. One of them to finally end racial profiling in this country.

SCHULTZ: Ben Jealous, great to have you with us tonight. I
appreciate your time. Ben Jealous of the NAACP.

JEALOUS: Thank you.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does Governor Romney support the Lilly Ledbetter

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll get back to you on that.


SCHULTZ: The campaign problem with Romney and women gets worse.
Tonight, the American icon Lilly Ledbetter is my exclusive guest.

Rick Santorum didn`t have the guts to take his campaign to
Pennsylvania, but he did have the guts to slam the front-runner.


Republican in the country to put up against Barack Obama.


SCHULTZ: And there`s a new red scare in Congress, courtesy of the
unhinged congressman from Florida, Allen West.


REP. ALLEN WEST (R), FLORIDA: I believe there`s about 78 to 81
members of the Democrat party that are members of the communist party.



SCHULTZ: Well, Mitt Romney will do anything to win back women voters.
Now he`s fudging the numbers on President Obama`s jobs record.


MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He`s not created jobs. He`s
lost 800,000 jobs during his presidency. And by the way, do you know what
percentage of those jobs that were lost were lost by women? Over 92
percent of the jobs lost under this president were lost by women. His
policies have been really a war on women.


SCHULTZ: I tell you, it`s almost comical. I mean, it`s a claim that
Romney has been repeating throughout the week, trying to get everybody to
think that, oh, he`s telling the truth. But Romney`s math does not include
job loss over the duration of the entire recession. President Obama took
office midway through the recession, after industries dominated by men
already took a big hit.

Industries dominated by women suffered in the aftermath of the
economy`s initial downturn. But as "the Washington Post" points out, women
have actually fared better than men during the recession. Starting in
December of 2007, the total decline in jobs was just over five million,
with women accounting for nearly 1.8 million of those jobs.

Still think Romney`s telling the truth?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ninety two percent of the women -- of the people
who have lost jobs on Barack Obama`s watch have been women.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems big. It seems impossible --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems impossible, actually.


SCHULTZ: Mitt, when you`ve lost Gretchen Carlson, dude, you have got
some real problems with your campaign. Romney`s campaign only added to the
confusion on a conference call later on.

Listen to this: the subject was women`s economic securities. Sam
Stein of "the Huffington Post" asked about the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay
Act, the first bill President Obama signed into law. It allows women to
seek restitution for pay discrimination.


SAM STEIN, "THE HUFFINGTON POST": Yeah, does Governor Romney support
the Lilly Ledbetter Act?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sam, we`ll get back to you on that.


SCHULTZ: Oh, "we`ll get back to you on that." Well, hours later,
team Romney offered up this statement, because they didn`t know what the
heck they were talking about. "He supports pay equity and is not looking
to change current law."

The campaign also enlisted the help of Republican Congresswoman Mary
Bono Mack and also Cathy McMorris Rodgers. Both women defended Romney by
hitting back at the Obama administration. Both women, of course, voted
against the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, along with a vast majority of
Republicans in Congress.

The silence was deafening, wasn`t it?

Joining me tonight is Lilly Ledbetter, the namesake of the Lilly
Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. The law helps women fight back against pay
discrimination. She is also the author of "Grace and Grit." And we want
to thank you, Lilly, for joining us tonight here on THE ED SHOW.


SCHULTZ: Well, what`s your response to the probable nominee of the
Republican party not knowing what your law was all about?

LEDBETTER: I`m disturbed. I`m very disturbed. And I`m extremely
concerned, because that tells me he`s really further out of touch with
women and our rights than I thought, to not know how he would respond to
that, and I "we`ll get back to you."

That should have been a no-brainer, Ed. It should have been very
quickly. Absolutely not, I would not repeal it. Because this bill is
simply for Republicans and Democrats. It`s an American right.

SCHULTZ: And did you feel like progress was being made when President
Obama signed this? And now we`re having this big discussion in this
country about the war on women and the discrimination that`s taking place?
How does that make you feel?

LEDBETTER: It makes me feel extremely concerned. Like I said, in
fact, I`m afraid for where we are going with this. And it did make
progress when President Obama signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act,
because we had changed what had been done in the Supreme Court that was
incorrect. And we changed the bill back. And we had support.

This was a bipartisan bill. It was supported by Republicans and
Democrats. And it was progress. And it`s given the American people the
right, if they learn that they`re being discriminated against, to go
forward. But when the GOP candidate, Governor Romney, says I`ll get back
to you, this is scary.

This is extremely scary, because we fought long and hard for this
bill. And I lost so much money through the years. And I did not gain one
thing out of this, except recognition. And I fought long and hard, 18
months in Washington, lobbying and working to get this bill passed into

And when it did, I felt so proud for what it meant for my daughter, my
granddaughter, and the other working women and their families across this

SCHULTZ: And I think -- does this, in your opinion, signal that we
still have a long way to go? There are still a lot of injustices that are
playing out when it comes to gender pay in this country. I mean, you were
at Goodyear. You were paid less than your male coworkers. You said you
lost a lot of money.

Actually, it was a grave injustice played out. And moving forward,
what do we have to do to make progress?

LEDBETTER: We have to get other bills passed. We`ve been working on
paycheck fairness. There is so much work to be done, Ed, that I get up
every day, ready to hit the road, and to go out and talk to people and show
them exactly where we really are.

Because I had no idea until I got into my fight and my battle. But
this has been a long, hard journey. And when I learned how much my family
has suffered and done without, I do not want any other American family
going through this. And I suffer even today because my retirement and my
Social Security all is based on what I earned.

And I can`t let this happen to other people in this country, when we
can do something about it. And I am concerned about this election. And
Governor Romney, the way he is portraying women, I am extremely concerned.
Evidently, he`s out of touch with the American working class women across
this nation and their families.

SCHULTZ: Lilly Ledbetter --

LEDBETTER: The middle class is struggling.

SCHULTZ: . Lilly Ledbetter, thank you for joining us on THE ED SHOW.
And thank you for all your work in this area. I appreciate it.

And a programming note; tomorrow night, I`ll have an exclusive
interview with the vice president of the United States, Joe Biden. We`ll
have an in depth discussion covering all of the news of the day, including
the Republican`s war on women`s health care.

Next, Rick Santorum spent months trashing Mitt Romney. Now he`s out
of the race. He might have to borrow Mitt`s Etch a Sketch, don`t you


SCHULTZ: Rick Santorum is out of the race. He quit. Mr. staunch
conservative did not have the guts to take it home and face Mitt Romney in
Pennsylvania. Wow, think about that.

The people of Pennsylvania won`t get a chance to show just how they
support the local guy, the most conservative guy in the race, right?
That`s what we were told. I think this speaks volume about just how tough
Santorum really is. And it really highlights his lack of confidence.

Did he really believe? Did he ever believe? Santorum does not want
to give Mitt Romney the street -- I guess you could say the political
street credibility that the less less-conservative candidate would defeat
him on his home turf. That wouldn`t sound real good for Santorum at the
convention and later on this year.

And of course, it would probably damage him for 2016. Santorum, I
guess you could say, would rather be a calculated politician than a hard
line conservative. Now Santorum has to go back and see what he really said
about this guy over the last six months, you know, the guy that he`s been
trashing. Lucky for Democrats, there were a lot of cameras rolling.


SANTORUM: He just doesn`t have the goods to be able to motivate the
Republican base and win this election.

You just don`t have credibility, Mitt, when it comes to repealing

He is the worst Republican in the country to put up against Barack

He will say what he needs to say to win the election that`s before

This is someone who is -- who doesn`t have a core. He`s been on both
sides of almost every single issue.

Imagine, had Mitt Romney been around at the time that we were drafting
our Constitution. He`d have just shaken it and just shook it up after it
was approved to rewrite it.

Do you really believe this country wants to elect a Wall Street
financier as the president of the United States?

He supported the folks on Wall Street and bailed out Wall Street, was
all for it. And then when it came to the auto workers and the folks in
Detroit, he said no.

You win by giving people the opportunity to see a different vision for
our country, not someone who`s just going to be a little different than the
person in there. If they`re going to be a little different, we might as
well stay with what we have.


SCHULTZ: Rick, that`s all great tape. You mean that wouldn`t play in
Pennsylvania? That wouldn`t take you all the way to the convention? You
know, for a guy that ran around the country talking about how he was just
so strong in his convictions and he was a conservative with strong
convictions, and time and time again saying that he`s the one -- for a guy
not wanting to play on his home turf, I think this is going to follow him
for a long, long time.

Too much calculation and not enough fight for Rick Santorum.

Next, Florida Congressman Allen West tries to gin up a modern day Red
Scare. Bob Shrum joins me to try to make sense of West`s ridiculous
comments and Democratic reaction.


SCHULTZ: And in the Big Finish tonight, Congressman Allen West is
calling Democrats in Congress communists.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In our legislature do you think are card carrying
Marxists or international socialists?

WEST: It`s a good question. I believe that there`s about 78 to 81
members of the Democratic party that are members of the Communist party.
They actually don`t hide that. It`s called the Congressional Progressive


SCHULTZ: Holy smokes, that`s the guy that Sarah Palin thinks ought to
be the next vice president. Leaders of the Congressional Progressive
Caucus hit back hard, saying Allen West is "degenerating the millions of
Americans who voted to elect Congressional Progressive Caucus members.
When people like Representative West have no ideals or principles, they
rely on personal attacks. We will not engage in base and childish
conversations that lower the level of discourse Americans rightly expect
from their representatives."

Let`s turn to Bob Shrum, Democratic strategist and also professor at
NYU. Bob, what`s your reaction to this? Why is he going down this road?
He knows it`s not true?

BOB SHRUM, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, first of all, Ed, I`ve got to
say, I know why Sarah Palin`s for him for vice president, because he`ll
make her look like she was qualified for the job. Look, in his view, these
folks are members of the Communist party because they`re for the Medicare
guarantee, which Republicans are trying to end.

They`re for tax fairness, the progressive income tax, which of course
was promoted in this country by that great communist leader, Theodore
Roosevelt. Look, these folks have a vocabulary of lies and smears. He`s
just the outlier, the whacko, the extreme edge of it.

But if you think of the demonization of the president, you think of
death panels and rationing in the health reform bill, which never existed,
you think of West himself saying Democrats are vile, vicious socialists
before he escalated to calling them Communists, you know there`s a playbook

The playbook here is they can`t win on the substance. They have to
label Democrats. He makes the tactic transparent because he`s so absurd
and ridiculous.

SCHULTZ: Where does this rank in the crazy -- the list of crazy that
comes from Allen West and the things that he has said. And of course, he
doubled down on it today. He`s not backing off it.

Is this just who this guy is? Or is he trying to develop some kind of
narrative for the hard-right wing?

SHRUM: Look, there are people on the hard right who like him. I`m
sure there are people in the Republican party who wish he would shut up,
because, as I say, he goes so far, he exposes what they`re doing.


SCHULTZ: Do you think he believes it?

SHRUM: Look, I can`t get inside his mind, to the extent there is one.
I just can`t. I mean, the things he`s said about Debbie Wasserman Schultz,
about the president, about Democrats in Congress, over and over and over
again, I mean, this is someone who is really out there on the edge.

But we have to understand, he also illustrates the dark side of
Republican politics, which is to use these labels, to demonize the
opposition, not to debate on substance, because they`re not going to win on
substance. It`s to debate these things by smearing Democrats, smearing
what they stand for, and making them un-American.

SCHULTZ: Do you think there`s any chance that he would be getting the
VP nod with Mitt Romney? Gosh, that`d be a dandy, wouldn`t it?

SHRUM: Can I endorse him?

SCHULTZ: Go right ahead.

SHRUM: I mean, I`m for Paul Ryan, and -- you know, I think he would
draw a really sharp contrast between the parties. I think that`s a good
idea. But this guy, you know, there`s no chance that Mitt Romney would
ever put him on a ticket. But there`s probably not much of a chance that
Mitt Romney will rebuke him either.

SCHULTZ: Thanks, Bob. Bob Shrum with us tonight here on THE ED SHOW.
And before we go, this just in. This is the George Zimmerman mug shot.
This was just released by the Seminole County Sheriff. It is the picture
Trayvon Martin`s family has been waiting for.

That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed Schultz. "RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts
right now. Good evening, Rachel.


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