The Ed Show for Tuesday, May 15, 2012

Guests: Richard Wolffe, Howard Dean, Karen Finney, Ilyse Hogue, Byron Dorgan

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED
SHOW tonight, from the nation`s capital.

The Republican candidate for the presidency is campaigning to repeal
the only thing standing between your bank account and another economic

This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.


PROTESTERS: Hey, hey, ho, ho, corporate greed has got to go.

SCHULTZ (voice-over): Protesters storm the JPMorgan Chase
shareholder meeting. Jaime Dimon will stay on as chairman. Bottom line:
the big bank casino is still open and Republicans want to keep it that way.

of the Republican members of Congress, and the financial industry have been
arguing that this is unnecessary.

SCHULTZ: Former Senator Byron Dorgan saw it all coming, and he`s
here tonight.

FORMER SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: I think we will in ten
years look back and say we should not have done that.

SCHULTZ: Mitt Romney is playing with fire in Iowa.

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A prairie fire of debt is
sweeping across Iowa and across the nation.

SCHULTZ: Tonight, we`ll remind Mitt Romney who started the prairie
fire with MSNBC`s Richard Wolffe.

The mayor of cable news is trying to fool the folks again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s ticking up nonstop.

BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: Nobody gives you anything. You earn it.

SCHULTZ: Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean will set him straight.


SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight, folks. Thanks for

Once again, Wall Street is taking our country`s life in its hands.
In 2008, if we can remember correctly, it was a massive heart attack,
wasn`t it, leading to an economic meltdown in this country. This time
around, I guess you could say it`s just a small heart attack relatively
speaking with JPMorgan losing $2 billion on a bet.

President Obama is paying attention. He said there is cause for
concern when a supposedly well-run company allows this to happen.


OBAMA: They still lost $2 billion and counting, precisely because
they were making bets in these derivative markets. We don`t know the
details yet. It`s going to be investigated.


SCHULTZ: Today, the Justice Department launched a criminal probe
into the $2 billion trading loss. A law enforcement source told "The
Washington Post" it`s unclear if any laws have been violated and the
inquiry is in its early stages.

President Obama was clear about how taxpayers are put at risk by
these kinds of risky bets.


OBAMA: This is why we passed Wall Street reform. The whole point
was even if you`re smart, you can make mistakes. And since these banks are
insured, backed up by taxpayers, we don`t want you taking risks where
eventually we might end up having to bail you out again because we have
done that, been there, didn`t like it.


SCHULTZ: Today, Mitt Romney advisor said that JPMorgan mess was all
part of the free markets.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: JPMorgan is a public company with public
shareholders and a board of directors and the leadership will be held
accountable for this trading loss. But we don`t want to punish companies
for taking risks. There was no taxpayer money at issue here. These losses
went to investors in the company, which is how it works in a market.


SCHULTZ: JPMorgan held a shareholders meeting but, of course, it was
pretty much business as usual. Here is CEO Jaime Dimon.


JAIME DIMON, JPMORGAN CEO: This should never have happened. I can`t
justify it. Unfortunately, these mistakes were self-inflicted. We`re
fully engaged now and doing a thorough review of the issues that led to
these losses. There are many lessons here and many changes in policies and
procedures that are being implemented. In addition, all corrective action
will be taken as necessary.


SCHULTZ: There was talk of separating the roles of CEO and chairman
which Jaime Dimon holds.

And there were protests outside today. But so far, only the chief
investment officer has resigned.

So much for Mitt Romney`s free market. Let`s be clear: Mitt Romney
has repeatedly called for the repeal of Dodd-Frank.


ROMNEY: By the way, when I get rid of Obamacare and I get rid of
Dodd-Frank, and I get rid of Sarbanes-Oxley, it doesn`t mean I don`t want
any law or any regulation. It means I want to make sure it`s modern, it`s
updated. It goes after the bad guys, but it also encourages the good guys.


SCHULTZ: Romney wants to repeal it all and pays lip service to
keeping some regulation? What is that?

The campaign points out to Romney`s 59-point economic plan saying
some of the concepts in Dodd-Frank have place.

The White House isn`t going to let this slide because once again,
Mitt Romney is trying to straddle an issue when his real position is far to
the right.

Here is White House spokesman Jay Carney.


JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: In the wake of what we have
just seen on Wall Street, it is even more alarming and astounding that
there are those who remain on Capitol Hill and elsewhere, including those
who would be president, who say we should repeal Wall Street reform. We
should go back to a system where Wall Street writes its own rules.


SCHULTZ: President Obama doesn`t want reforms to be rolled back. He
wants reforms to be enforced.


OBAMA: Keep in mind, if we get all the rules that we proposed and
were passed by Congress implemented into law, it should prevent this kind
of stuff from happening. It is my strong belief we have to have vigorous
enforcement of these rules we just passed.


SCHULTZ: And, of course, so much of this just traces back to the
Financial Modernization Act of 1999, when 70 years of sound banks practices
was just thrown out the window by the Congress. There was one senator who
stood up and predicted these problems would happen.


DORGAN: Diffusing together the idea of banking which requires not
just safety and soundness to be successful, but the perception of safety
and soundness. To merge it with inherently risky speculative activity is
in my judgment unwise. We are with this piece of legislation moving
towards greater risks.

We are almost certainly moving towards substantial new concentration
and mergers of the services industry. That is almost certainly not in the
interest of consumers. I think we will in ten years time look back and say
we should not have done that.


SCHULTZ: Last year, a labor-backed shareholder group warned JPMorgan
Chase its risk management committee was not sufficient and should remove
one of its members. "We are deeply concerned. The current three-person
risk policy committee, without a single expert in banking or financial
regulation, is simply not up to the task."

This is a moment for the Congress to bring back the Glass-Steagall
Act. Have some guts and do it right for the consumer. And any Democrat
who wants really to prevent another financial meltdown should call for it,
including President Obama.

It`s time to get back to some good old boring banking in America and
start protecting taxpayers so nobody`s going to be sniffing around looking
for another bailout.

Get your cell phones out, I want to know what you think.

Tonight`s question: should President Obama make stricter banking
regulations a campaign issue? Text A for yes, text B for now, to 622639.
You can always go to our blog at We`ll bring you the results
later on in the show.

Joining me tonight is Senator Byron Dorgan, who spent a lot of time
in the Senate, on the commerce committee. You just saw the tape of this
gentleman some, what, 1999 calling it.

Can I get you on next Super Bowl? How did you know this was going to
happen, Senator?

DORGAN: Well, you know, look, I didn`t have a crystal ball. But I
understood that if you`re going to put together banking with real estate
and securities and things are inherently more risky and give essentially
the investment banks and Wall Street a green light and say, you know what,
you do what you want to do, we won`t watch.

Alan Greenspan will do what that`s in the best interest of everybody.
Those who push this legislation, repealing Glass-Steagall, believe it was -
- they would all act responsibly. That`s absurd. There needs to be
effective regulation.

And it makes my blood boil to hear Mitt Romney, who doesn`t know what
he is talking about, saying let`s repeal the minimum amount of regulation
that was put in place. That was a baby step. There needs to be much more

SCHULTZ: What do we need to do? Of course, we knew what to do but
we didn`t do it.

DORGAN: Well, Jaime Dimon says we`ll take corrective action. Well,

Well, Wall Street has been so strong and so good, they have varnished
those of us who believe in real corrective action as being radical.

Let me tell you the three steps we should take that Wall Street would
consider radical. Number one, restore the Glass-Steagall Act. That
protective this country for 70 years. You can`t do banking and securities
and real estate all in the same pot.

Number two, ban naked credit default swaps. Some other countries
have, we haven`t. That`s just flat out gambling.

And number three, get rid of too big to fail. If you`re too big,
then break them up. We did that with standard oil under 30 separate
companies. If you`re too big to fail, you`re too big. And we ought to
break them up.

The too big to fail companies are now much bigger than they were when
they nearly collapsed this country`s economy.

SCHULTZ: The risk is much greater now because they`re bigger and
able to take greater risks at this point. Is this the tip of the iceberg
of what happened?

DORGAN: Sure. Well, listen, this is not just about JPMorgan.

SCHULTZ: You think there`s others?

DORGAN: Of course there is. We have the same institutions out there
in pursuit of profit just flat out gambling. There`s a danger to this
country`s economy -- mark my words -- there`s a danger to this economy if
we don`t wake up and decide that you`ve got to separate these activities
and you can`t allow these kinds of companies that are after all insured
banks as well, guaranteed by the taxpayer, to go out and be involved in
naked credit default swaps.

If I could just people asked me -- what`s a naked -- how does a
default swap get naked? Well, that`s just a side bet that you and I might
make over something that`s going on over here that we have no interest in,
except we want to make a wager. That`s what the biggest banks in the
country are doing to the tune of billions and trillions of dollars.

SCHULTZ: Now, when you look at how this could be reeled in, some
think there`s no way because Wall Street is too influential in the Senate.
Your thoughts.

DORGAN: Well, it is influential in the Senate. That`s how Dodd-
Frank came out to be a baby step, in the right direction, I voted for it
because it was a step in the right direction. But a much smaller step than
we should have taken.

Maybe this now is a wakeup call. Maybe the Congress and certainly I
hope the president will decide we`ve got to push back.

Mitt Romney says, get rid of the regulation we did have. That`s
absurd. That`s so dangerous to the country to hear that.

SCHULTZ: Here is Jaime Dimon, another sound byte. I want to play
this. Here it is.


DIMON: We made a terrible, egregious mistake. There`s almost no
excuse for it.

In hindsight, we took far too much risk. The strategy we have was
badly vetted. It was badly monitored. It should never happen.


SCHULTZ: I mean, he sounds like he`s taking responsibility, but he
could do it all over again.

DORGAN: Well, hindsight. What is he -- talk about hindsight, did he
have hindsight in 2008 where they nearly run the economy off a cliff with
this nonsense? And now we see, few short years later, JPMorgan we have big
losses, but we didn`t understand what happened. We made very big mistakes.
We`ll take corrective action.

The corrective action they need to take are the things I just
mentioned, that would really protect this country`s interests.

SCHULTZ: We had Bart Chilton, the commissioner of the Commodities
Futures Trading Commission on this program last night. Here`s what he had
to say.


BART CHILTON, CFTC: To do what`s expected, but really what we know
they will do is only what`s inspected. And that`s we need to put the meat
on the bones of Dodd-Frank. They passed the law two years ago, but we
still -- two-thirds of the regulations aren`t even in place.


SCHULTZ: So, writing the rules is a big step right now, but it`s
going to take political courage, is it not?

DORGAN: Sure. There`s one that has courage, Bart Chilton. They
don`t have enough votes down there on CFTC, but even when you write those
rules, it`s not enough. Dodd-Frank wasn`t enough. We need more
regulation. It`s not a four letter word.

Let`s make sure that we have proper effective regulation to say the
biggest financial institutions in this country cannot be involved in casino
gambling, and that`s exactly what they are doing.

SCHULTZ: There`s a moral component here, too. You`re putting
people`s retirements and a lot of things at risk with no protection.

DORGAN: That`s right. And if you care about a country that provides
opportunity and economic growth for the American people in the years ahead,
we can`t continue with this kind of financial institution and these rules.

SCHULTZ: Well, Senator, you called it so well on the Senate floor in
1999, I can`t wait to read there book. It`s fiction, correct?

DORGAN: It is.

SCHULTZ: It`s a novel. It`s your first novel.

DORGAN: First novel. It`s called "Blowout." And, you know,
download it on Kindle from Amazon. It`s just published.

SCHULTZ: What`s it about?

DORGAN: It`s about energy.

SCHULTZ: About energy and it`s a novel. It`s going to be a

DORGAN: It`s a good one.

SCHULTZ: Well, it`s a thick one. This book and Rachel`s work, I got
a lot of work to do it the lake.

Senator, great to have you with us.

DORGAN: Ed, thanks so much. Good to be with you.

SCHULTZ: Thanks so much. Senator Byron Dorgan here on THE ED SHOW.

Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the
screen. Share your thoughts on Twitter @EdShow. We want to know what you

Mitt Romney is attacking the president over the deficit? I`ll tell
you why Mitt Romney will make the deficit worse. Richard Wolffe joins me
next on that.

And Republicans in Virginia block the appointment of the state`s
first openly gay judge. One congressman from Oklahoma thinks that kind of
discrimination, it`s just fine. We`ll discuss the right wing`s effort to
undermine equality in this country.

Stay tuned. We`re coming right back.


SCHULTZ: Coming up, Mitt Romney and the GOP`s new ad blitz says the
president is solely to blame for the national debt. Really? But I think
they are the ones that will make it worse. We`ll explain.

Later, I`m bringing out the big Eddie charts and taking on Bill
O`Reilly`s claim that income inequality in America is bull. Really?

And you won`t believe how far a co-founder of Facebook is going to
avoid paying of millions of dollars of capital gains taxes. We will bring
you the details.

Share your thoughts on Twitter #EdShow. We`re coming right back.



ROMNEY: A prairie fire of debt is sweeping across Iowa and across
the nation. Every day that we fail to act, that fire gets closer to the
homes and the children we love.


SCHULTZ: Well, Mitt Romney and the Republicans are blasting the
president over the national debt. How about that?

They want Americans to forget all about what happened under the
previous president. The RNC put out a web ad highlighting the rise of the
national debt under the Obama administration. Romney`s campaign has its
own ad hammering the president over government spending and the rising


NARRATOR: Hope and change has not been kind to millions of
Americans, but they still believe in this great country and deserve a
leader who believes in them. Mitt Romney.


SCHULTZ: Mitt Romney also came up with a dollar figure to hang
around President Obama`s neck on this issue.


ROMNEY: When you add up all of his policy, by the way, this
president has increased the national debt by $5 trillion.


SCHULTZ: Romney wants to blame President Obama for $5 trillion of
debt, but he needs to remember what caused the debt increase in the first

You can see it in this chart. I mean, the chart doesn`t lie. The
majority, the majority of our national debt comes from George W. Bush`s
policies. The main drivers of future debt are unpaid wars in Iraq and
Afghanistan and the Bush tax cuts.

Republicans blame the Obama administration for stimulus spending, but
as you can see, the stimulus caused a short term spike in the deficit
before leveling off. George W. Bush endorsed Mitt Romney today. A
reporter for ABC News wrote said Bush quickly said, "I`m for Mitt Romney"
as the doors of an elevator closed. Sounds like a ringing endorsement
doesn`t it? But it`s very appropriate since Mitt Romney`s deficit
reduction policies are Bush on steroids.

Romney`s proposed tax cuts would cost more than $10.7 trillion of the
next decade, $8 trillion more than the cost of Bush`s tax cuts. Tax
revenue would drop 15 percent of our GDP, making it impossible to balance a

Romney hasn`t said how he plans to pay for these cuts. Meanwhile,
the current government -- we should point out -- just posted a budget
surplus for the first time in 42 months.

If Republicans, seriously, if Republicans are able to convince people
in this country that President Obama is entirely responsible for our
national debt, it will be the biggest political hoodwink of modern
political times.

Let`s turn to MSNBC political analyst Richard Wolffe.

Richard, great to have you with us.


SCHULTZ: I mean, it`s a heavy lift. I guess you can give the
Republicans credit for trying to do. Can Mitt Romney convince Americans to
forget what happened in the Bush years and what started to dig us right
into this hole?

WOLFFE: Well, if he does that, there`s a bridge in Brooklyn that he
will want to sell voters as well in November.

You know, we deal with facts at MSNBC and we just showed up that
chart where you saw -- yes, this president had to go into deficit spending
to help try and move this country out of recession. But the vast bulk of
this, you have to remember came after President Clinton gave President Bush
a surplus. In fact, I was there in 2000. President Bush campaign saying
it wasn`t the government`s money. It was the people`s office.

By the time, he got into office aided by Karl Rove, who is now
obviously playing a big role in this election, they decided that they were
going to give up the people`s money and we were going into recession again
after the Internet bubble burst and they would spend the people`s republic
money. It was Chinese money they went on spending, both for the tax cuts
and the wars and they continued to do that all the way through into their

This recession and the recession spending from TARP came on their
watch. So, yes, there`s some blame for this president, but remember,
President Bush started out with a surplus and he gave it away.

SCHULTZ: We have amnesia in this country sometimes when it comes to
who is responsible for what. We have short memories. We`re not very good
at putting things into historical perspective.

Is this important for the Obama administration to get out and fight
back and point right back, just as you said? I mean, that takes time,
effort and money to explain all of this stuff again.

WOLFFE: It does. And people have forgotten when the recession
started. When asked the basic question, are you better off now than you
were four years ago? A lot of people say they are still in recession. And
the economy is changing, some of the polling is changing on that, too. As
people know that the recovery is kicking in.

But, you know, the bigger question isn`t so much what happened under
Bush, who`s to blame now. There`s a choice here. Mitt Romney`s plan, he`s
up there speaking in front of big sign saying end the debt.

His plans make the debt worse.


WOLFFE: His policies add to the problem that he is identifying as
prairie fire.

SCHULTZ: Meanwhile, the debt ceiling fight is heating up again.
Here is Speaker Boehner today.


I will insist on my simple principle of cuts and reform greater than the
debt limit increase. This is the only avenue I see right now to force the
elected leadership of this country to solve our structural fiscal


SCHULTZ: So here we go again where the Republicans want to hold the
economy hostage. They don`t want to pay the bills around the country that
we owe people until they get the cuts that they want. Here we go again.

What`s going to happen?

WOLFFE: You know, it`s interesting watching Republicans try to
squirm their way out of a deal that they made, right? They`re also trying
to change the triggers, the sequesters that would have these defense cuts.

This is the whole unpicking of a deal. These are people who say they
understand the private sector, right? No businessman can try to undo a
deal they just did and that`s what they`re trying here.

It doesn`t matter right now. It`s rhetoric. They are positioning
for the election.

But post-election, the debt ceiling, the Bush era tax cuts, the
defense cuts are part of those triggers, all of that kicks in right there
and then. So, this whole thing is going to be part of a much bigger fight
in November-December in this lame duck Congress.

SCHULTZ: And if Romney wins they`re going to go right to the Ryan
plan because that`s how they`re going to pay for all of these tax cuts and
it`s going to worsen the situation. That`s where they`re going to go. I
mean, if he wins, that will be the first thing they do, I think.

WOLFFE: Look, you can say you want to shrink government. If they
were being honest, that`s really what they`re trying to do here. But they
have to go for voodoo economics saying these tax cuts will pay for
themselves. It`s just as voodoo as it was back in the first President

SCHULTZ: Richard Wolffe, great to have you with us. Thanks so much.

Bill O`Reilly says he`s -- well, he`s looking out for the guy in the
mirror. Wait until you hear his heartless comment about the poor in this

Republicans in Colorado kill a bill that would allow civil unions for
some same-sex couples.

Pat Robertson -- you know, this guy couldn`t be happier. He says the
union between two men brings disease and suffering.

The right wings attack on equality later in the program. Stay with



OBAMA: I think what you`ll see in this campaign is two very
different visions about how we move the country forward. I believe we`ve
got to invest in things like education, making college affordable, science
and technology, rebuilding road, rebuilding the country, that all those
things can be done in a sensible way while we`re bringing out deficits down
in a balance way.


SCHULTZ: The guy wants to make America better on all fronts. It`s
not just about making a dollar. The centerpiece to the Obama campaign is
advocacy for the middle class and the poor in this country, those who have
been beaten up by the wealthy in America. Burdens are increasing on these
groups and people at the top are just getting a heck of a lot more out of

Now, you know, we show you this vulture top all the time, to
illustrate the divide between the top 1 percent everybody else.

Now, hold it right there. I`m not making this stuff up. This is
where it is, OK? I didn`t make that red line go where it is. I didn`t
make that blue line go where it is.

I mean, there`s also a chart showing worker productivity going up
while wages remain stagnant. I`m not making that one up either. I mean,
over the past 40 years the middle class has shrunk in America. Meanwhile,
there are more poor people and there are more rich people. Those are the
numbers. I mean, the gap between the rich and the poor just gets larger
and larger. And only a fool would say that there`s no such thing as income
inequality in this country.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Income inequality? Here`s what I`m
concerned about: the economy stinks because federal government has botched
it. If they get out of the way and let people develop small business,
there would be more jobs and then you`d have more income. That`s what I`m
concerned about.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Income inequality is ticking up nonstop.

O`REILLY: Nobody gives you anything. You earn it.


SCHULTZ: Bill, so much anger there. Let me quote what O`Reilly just
said. "Income inequality is bull. Nobody gives you anything. You earn

Bill O`Reilly thinks that there are more poor people today because
Democrats haven`t done anything.


O`REILLY: You had a democratic congress, both the Senate and the
House, and a Democratic president. They didn`t restore bupkiss.


SCHULTZ: Of course there was a record number of filibusters by the
Republican party while Democrats had the House and Senate. The truth is
O`Reilly is in denial about poverty in this country. Here is more proof.


O`REILLY: Every poor person in America, I`d like to bring them in
here. I can analyze the situation and tell you why they are poor. They
drop out of school. They get addicted to alcohol or drugs. They have a
mental problem, an emotional problem that`s untreated. There`s always a
reason in this country, Mr. Salt.


SCHULTZ: There`s always a reason in this country. Bill O`Reilly, he
has no solutions for poverty in America. He wants to blame the victims.
O`Reilly is an ideologue and now he`s proving it. He`s only looking out
for himself. You know, you don`t really have to go too far to find out and
find workers in the workplace who are basically getting screwed.

O`Reilly, the next time you get on an airplane, as I got one on this
morning from New York to Washington, I thought about the flight attendants.
They`re not working hard enough. They had their retirement taken away.
What about the pilots? Heck, their pay has been cut 50 percent. I had a
call in my radio show today. A pilot said, you know, I put in 25 years;
they cut my pay 50 percent.

Now are they not working hard enough? Are they doing something wrong?
They are not drunks. They graduated from college. They have done
everything right in society.

What we need to focus on is that there is some taking place in
America. I`m joined tonight by Howard Dean, former governor of Vermont and
former chairman of the DNC. He is also a consultant to McKenna, Long and
Aldriche, as well as Democracy for America, and a contributor to cNBC.

Governor Dean, good to have you with us tonight.


SCHULTZ: Well, you have a lot of jobs, which is good. And you do
them well, by the well. Look, income inequality, O`Reilly says it`s bull.
What do you say?

DEAN: Well, I don`t know why you would quote somebody who works for
one of the most corrupt organizations on the face of the Earth. It`s now
in danger of losing its license in Great Britain because of all the hacking
scandals. So let`s leave O`Reilly out of this.

The fact of the matter, of course there`s income inequality. And it`s
gotten about 10 times bigger than it used to be in the 1950s. You can
argue about how bad a thing it is. I think it`s demoralizing for the
average person who is working very, very hard to see people who are working
not much harder maybe 100 times or 500 times more money than they do.

I think, you know, capitalism has to work for everybody if it`s going
to be a successful system. The problem is it isn`t working for everybody
right now. And that`s a big problem for the United States of America.

SCHULTZ: The Vulture Chart, which we show a lot on this program, if
Mitt Romney wins and if the Ryan Plan were to implemented by a Republican
majority, if that were to ever happen, the lines between -- the distance
between the red line and the blue line would get even further apart.

This is the Republican plan to concentrate the wealth. So has
O`Reilly really given us the plan of the GOP, trying to sell the American
people that there just is no income inequality? Is this part of their
culture? Is this part of what they want to do to try to win this election?

DEAN: I think it`s just part of the Fox propaganda. I think the
issue is which party do you think is going to represent you. I have plenty
of things to complain about with the Democratic party. But the Republican
party stands for the one percent of the people that give them lots of
money. The Democratic party at least stands for a broader coalition of
ordinary people who have to work for a living. And that`s the difference.

The Fox people and all the nut jobs on the right are really interested
in the one percent with lots of money, the Koch Brothers and all these kind
of people. The Supreme Court has put democracy up for sale with the
Citizens United decision. It`s a very bad situation we have in this
country. It`s why I`m rooting for the president to win re-election.

We have got to have some stable, thoughtful leadership at the top, and
not people who are just going to simply cave in and give the people with
all the money what they have got. That leads to social instability. I
think this country is in a lot of trouble if Mitt Romney wins the election.
I really do.

I think a lot of people are going to lose hope. When a society loses
hope, the greatness of this nation will disappear.

SCHULTZ: And Governor Dean, the blue line, that is the majority of
Americans. You would think that the Democrats would roll in 2012, that
November would be pretty smooth sailing for a majority in the House, for
holding the majority in the Senate.

I mean, if people just vote their own economic interests, how can the
Democrats lose?

DEAN: Part of the problem is the Democrats really are partly to blame
for this. The Republicans, as you said earlier, most of the deficit is
caused by the Bush tax cuts. They didn`t have the courage to cut programs
when they cut taxes. They just gave away the store for free to people who
didn`t need the help.

But the Democrats made it easy for them. We didn`t stand up when we
needed to. This goes all the way back to the Democrats who voted for some
of the Bush tax cuts in -- when Bush was first president in 2001, 2002,
2003. So if we want to be strong as a country, the Democrats had better
get strong as a party and stand up for the people they`re supposed to be
standing up for.

SCHULTZ: Howard Dean, great to have you on THE ED SHOW. Thanks so

There`s a lot more coming up in the next half hour of THE ED SHOW.
Stay tuned. We`re right back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This what they call an ambush interview.


SCHULTZ: An Oklahoma Republican is taking major heat for saying it
should be legal to fire someone for being gay. Tonight, James Langford is
responding to his critics.


GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: We`re going to deal with collective
bargaining for all public employee unions. We use divide and conquer.


SCHULTZ: Scott Walker says divide and conquer, and the Barrett
campaign is all over it.

Facebook`s co-founder is renouncing his American citizenship to dodge
hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes. Righties are calling this guy a
hero. That report is ahead.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about now, you still wired in? You issued 24
new million shares of stock.




that in 20 years or less, people are going to look back and say, why was
this an issue? Why did people care about this? Why did we deny people
equal access under the law?


SCHULTZ: That was Democratic House Minority Leader Mark Ferrandino of
Colorado. Now Ferrandino, who is openly gay, has introduced legislation
allowing civil unions for same-sex couples four times since January. Late
last night, in a special legislative session, Republicans killed the bill
and the fight for equality once more.

Republican state lawmakers in Virginia have already shut the door on
marriage equality, but their attacks on civil rights continues. The
Republican led House of Delegates has successfully blocked a qualified and
well-respected prosecutor from becoming a state judge.

Why? Because he`s gay. Tracy Thorn Beglin (ph) is a former fighter
pilot and prosecutor in Richmond, Virginia. He had bipartisan support
going into today`s vote. But wait a minute, that was until the social
conservatives stepped in. Republican delegate Bob Marshall feels Mr. Thorn
Beglin is just not fit for the court.


proper to put his name forth because of his behavior.


SCHULTZ: Exactly who is Bob Marshall? Well, he`s the same guy who
sponsored Virginia`s Personhood Bill. He was also a vocal supporter of the
state`s transvaginal ultrasound bill. Both pieces of legislation
threatened to dramatically chip away at rights of women.

Governor Bob McDonnell, however, still auditioning to be the
Republican ticket with Mitt Romney, issued this statement hours before his
party denied Mr. Thorn Beglin the judgeship: "candidates for judicial
vacancies must be considered based solely on their merit, record, aptitude
and skill."

But according to Congressman James Langford of Oklahoma,
discriminating against somebody who is gay is justified. That`s because he
believes being gay is a choice. Here is what he told Think Progress.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe in legislation that should
protect gay people from being fired for being gay?

REP. JAMES LANGFORD (R), OKLAHOMA: Have you seen a piece of
legislation on that? Is there one you`re referencing particularly on that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Just would you support a law that says you
can`t fire someone for their sexual orientation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Similar for protections on race or gender.

LANGFORD: You`re now dealing with behavior. Race and sexual
preferences are two different things. One is behavior related and
preference related, and one is something inherently, skin color, something
obvious, that kind of stuff. You don`t walk up to someone on the street
and look at them and say, gay or street.


SCHULTZ: Now Langford claims his views were misrepresented.


LANGFORD: This is what they call an ambush interview, when you walk
out of the building and they start following you and asking you random
questions, see if they can get enough from you, and then be able to adapt
it for what they think they wanted you to say. I didn`t even talk about


SCHULTZ: Which brings us to one of the founding fathers of bigoted
views of modern America, Pat Robertson. Here`s what Robertson said on "The
700 Club."


PAT ROBERTSON, "THE 700 CLUB": The bottom line is a male equipped in
a particular fashion and female is equipped in particular fashion. And the
union of the two brings forth children. The union of two men doesn`t bring
forth anything except disease, apparently, and suffering. And the same
thing of the union of two women.


SCHULTZ: So what we have here across the country are elected
officials in three different states supporting the ideas of Pat Robertson,
and not just supporting but actively blocking legislation that calls for
equality, actively blocking qualified people from serving their community,
and actively campaigning on discrimination.

Joining me tonight is Karen Finney, MSNBC political analyst and former
communications director for the DNC. Put yourself on their side, for a
moment. How do you manage that message?

are managing that message. I`ll say it this way: you notice that their
national message is a little nuanced from the way they are trying to talk
at the local level. A lot of these guys locally are much harsher in their
rhetoric. Even this past Sunday on "Meet the Press," you heard Reince
Priebus, RNC chairman, trying to kind o say, well, we believe in equality.
He wouldn`t go as far as marriage.

But they know, to a national audience in a national election, they
have a real message problem here.

SCHULTZ: Well, this is what they believe too. Of course, this is
totally opposed to where President Obama is. And he has evolved on the
issue of marriage equality. Is this really going to make a difference in

FINNEY: I think not to -- in the way that the Republicans are trying
to say. You know, Ed, here is what is really frustrating. The truth is
that increasingly Republicans don`t believe that. They actually agree in
civil unions. Some are fine with marriage. Some don`t really care,
because they believe in equal rights. But none of them really has the
courage to come forward in their own party.

So I think what`s going to happen in November is, certainly for gays
and lesbians, this is a big deal and they will hopefully support the
president. In the African-American community and the Latino community,
which has gotten a lot of press on this, if you look at the polling, most
people don`t care. They really don`t. Or just like the way racial
differences started to change, they know somebody who is gay. So they`re
not so scary to them.

SCHULTZ: As we said a moment ago, Republicans killed the civil union
bill in Colorado. Colorado is a big state for the Obama team, no doubt.
Here is Minority Leader Mark Ferrendino talking about what happens next.


FERRENDINO: This is going to happen. It`s just a matter of when it`s
going to happen and who is going to stand in the way.


SCHULTZ: Is he right?

FINNEY: Absolutely. It`s not the same conversation that remember we
were having even in 2004. The national scapegoating of gays and lesbians
in this country is unacceptable. We are moving forward. And we`re going
to keep moving forward. That`s why we are going to keep seeing a lot more
of this kind of bigoted talk.

Look what they`re having to do in Colorado. It`s a gimmick, right?
They are having to keep sending it to committee so that they can`t bring it
up for a full up or down vote. Why? Because they know that they`ve got
the votes to actually pass it if they did is that.

SCHULTZ: The gay prosecutor was blocked from being a judge in

FINNEY: A fighter pilot. But it`s OK to stick something in my
vagina, but we can`t have a fighter pilot as a judge. That`s what the
state of Virginia basically said today.

SCHULTZ: Is this just going to drive the 20 somethings and the 30
somethings right into the Democratic camp?

FINNEY: Absolutely.

SCHULTZ: Or at least make them take a serious look, if they`ve never
thought about progressiveness or liberalism, that they would take a closer
look at the Democrats?.

FINNEY: Absolutely. If you look at all of the data, increasingly,
young people, they are actually kind of more libertarian about things like
this. Their belief is it`s not my business to tell you what to do. I
don`t really care. So if that`s what you do and this is what I do, I don`t
want you telling me what to do. So why am I going to tell you what to do?

That message -- I think they`re going to appeal -- from Obama is going
to appeal much more than here are all the things I`m going to tell you can
and can`t do with your own body.

SCHULTZ: Yes. Karen Finney, great to have you with us. Thank you.

Last night, I -- the DNC was stiffing the Wisconsin Democrats in their
efforts to recall Scott Walker. Now the DNC is responding. Stay tuned.


SCHULTZ: Three weeks from tonight, the great state of Wisconsin has
the chance to elect a new governor and send Scott Walker packing.
According to a new Daily Kos/PPP poll, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett is
running just five points behind Walker, despite being out spent 20 to one.
On Monday, the "Washington Post" Greg Sargent broke a story about the DNC
not funding the boots on the ground effort in Wisconsin Democrats, after
they had asked for a half a million dollars.

Today callers to my radio show were steaming mad that national
Democrats aren`t doing everything in their power to unseat the governor.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why have we been giving the money to the DNC if
they`re not going to participate in what we need, this battle of the
century that we need help with. I`m so darn angry. We should be -- excuse
me for saying this -- raising hell with the DNC.


SCHULTZ: This afternoon, DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz responded
on Twitter. Wasserman Schultz announced a trip to Wisconsin to raise money
for Barrett and recruit volunteers. There`s no doubt she`s responding to
Democratic calls for support.

Tonight in our survey, I asked should President Obama make stricter
banking regulations a campaign issue? Ninety eight percent of you say yes;
two percent of you say new -- say no.

Next, one of the co-founders of Facebook renounces his U.S.
citizenship to avoid paying taxes. "Forbes Magazine" is calling this guy
an American hero. Really? I`ll call him something else when we come back.


SCHULTZ: And in the Big Finish tonight, this story gets my blood
boiling. What a way to finish the night. Facebook co-founder Eduardo
Saverin has renounced his United States citizenship. Why? Because he will
save hundreds of millions of dollars.

Facebook is going to go public on Friday. And by giving up his
citizenship, Saverin will avoid paying taxes on billions of dollars on
capital gains. Saverin has lived in Singapore since 2009. And his
spokesman notes, "Eduardo recently found it would be more practical to
become a resident of Singapore." Singapore, they have no capital gains
taxes, even though the capital gains tax in this country is at a
historically low rate.

Now the move has earned Saverin the title of "American hero" from
"Forbes Magazine." Really? This burns me. And he`s not the only one
avoiding the IRS. Think Progress points out that Facebook CEO Mark
Zuckerberg will likely pay a big tax bill up front if he sells five billion
in stock options as planned.

But as the "New York Times" reports, Zuckerberg may not have to pay
another dime of his taxes on his remaining Facebook fortune. Instead, he
can simply use his stock as collateral to borrow against his tremendous
wealth and avoid all tax.

Ilyse Hogue joins me tonight. She`s a columnist for "The Nation"
magazine. She has written an article on this which is very inciteful. I
have to get my two cents in first, if I can.

These people have enjoyed the fruits of America. They have enjoyed
the security. They made their money on our soil with our citizens. Yet
they are going to play every angle they possibly can to avoid paying taxes.
I think that is horribly un-American. You`ve written about it. What kind
of response have you gotten ?

ILYSE HOGUE, "THE NATION": This story is like wildfire. I really
think it strikes the heart of who we are as a country. You know, what`s
interesting is that we`re seeing these guys become emblematic of a class of
one percenters who think they don`t owe anything to the countries that made
them great.

In fact, they think they are bigger than any nation state that
actually nurtured them and supported them growing up. One of the thing
that I think have come so clear by the right wings and the economic
libertarians that want to lionize these guys as heroes is that they have
lost their moral compass on what it means to love our country.

What it means to love our country is to re-invest in it, to give back
to that which made you great, so that we can all be great.

SCHULTZ: What is it? What do you think it is? Is it just a new
culture that`s developed in America of complete selfishness? The more you
make, the more you want, the more you want to keep, instead of
understanding the fruits of the country. They are saying that they don`t
want to contribute in a fair manner. They want to denounce citizenship.
This is amazing.

HOGUE: Yes. And what you have to understand -- or what your viewers
have to understand is that our country took in Eduardo Saverin when his
life was threatened in his native Brazil. He became an American citizen.
We shielded him and protected him.

But I will say is that I don`t think these guys are emblematic. I
think most Americans actually want to help make our country great. If you
juxtapose Saverin with the millions and millions of immigrants who paid our
taxes, who want to go fight and die for our country, actually he`s the
outlier. Mark Zuckerberg is the outlier if he avoids paying his taxes.

Most Americans understand that giving back is what makes us all great.
That`s what patriotism is.

SCHULTZ: Ilyse Hogue, Thanks for writing this article. I think it
speaks volumes of where we are in America right now, where the wealthy
really are. Great work at "The Nation."

That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed Schultz. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts
right now. Good evening, Rachel.


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