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'The Rachel Maddow Show' for Thursday, January 31st, 2013

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

January 31, 2013

Guests: Steve Clemons, Joe Cirincione, Nancy Northup

RACHEL MADDOW, HOST: Good evening, Ed. Thank you very much.


MADDOW: And thanks to you at home for staying with us this hour.

When Mitt Romney won the Republican presidential nomination this past
year, it was not his first try at winning that nomination. Mitt Romney had
also run in 2008. Remember? He lost to John McCain that year.

But that year, 2008, also was not John McCain`s first effort at
winning the Republican presidential nomination. He had run before as well.
He had run in the year 2000, when he lost to George W. Bush.

And while that John McCain campaign and his loss that year has mostly
been remembered for the egregiously racist dirty tricks played against John
McCain in the South Carolina primary that year. That`s mostly what we
think of when we think of him losing to George W. Bush that year.

Now, what is starting to become the more salient thing about that
losing run, about that losing attempt at winning the Republican
presidential nomination, what seems more salient now is who John McCain`s
national co-chair was for that run. It was Republican Senator Chuck Hagel.
There he is. You can see him in the little circle on the left there, with
John McCain`s entourage as John McCain was getting ready to launch his
presidential bid back in 2000.

This is the same Chuck Hagel who is President Obama`s nominee for
defense secretary now and who John McCain spent the day today vilifying and
attacking as manifestly unqualified for that job.

Back in the day, John McCain not only was kind of best buddies with
Chuck Hagel, but he specifically said that he thought Chuck Hagel would
make an awesome defense secretary someday.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: As far as secretary of defense is
concerned, there`s a lot of people that could do that. One of them I think
is Senator Chuck Hagel.


MADDOW: John McCain and Chuck Hagel were so close that in 2000, when
John McCain realized that he was not going to get the presidential
nomination, when John McCain decided he had to give up that bitterly fought
nomination battle, the person his campaign put out to speak to the press
the day he made his decision to withdraw was his dear friend, old Chuck.


REPORTER: Two aides tell NBC News that the Arizona senator will
announce a suspension of his quest for the White House.

Back in Arizona after his crushing defeat on Super Tuesday McCain
called supporters to thank them.

MCCAIN: We`re glad to be home.

REPORTER: Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel, who spoke to McCain three
times yesterday, believes McCain will stay in the Republican Party.

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: He understands the big picture here.


MADDOW: As you can tell from looking at this footage, as you can tell
specifically from the evolution of the eye bags and the hairdos over time,
that whole thing between Chuck Hagel and John McCain was a long while ago.

Chuck Hagel as John McCain`s campaign co-chair, as the top of his
short list for defense secretary, that was more than 12 years ago now. But
the thing that happened, the thing that turned John McCain from someone who
wanted himself to nominate Chuck Hagel for defense into a guy who was
angrily and with palpable disgust leading the opposition now to the
nomination of Chuck Hagel for defense, the thing that happened between
those two different John McCains is not just the passage of time. What
happened between those two John McCains is the Iraq war.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Do you believe that the people of Iraq,
or at least a large number of them, will treat us as liberators?

MCCAIN: Absolutely.

I believe we can win an overwhelming victory in a very short period of

I believe that the success will be fairly easy.



John McCain was wrong about the Iraq war. He was factually wrong
about why we needed to start the Iraq war. He was wrong about how the Iraq
war would go. He was wrong about how the Iraq war would end. Early on, he
was not just a yes vote for the Iraq war. He was an enthusiastic proponent
of how good an idea it would be to start that war in Iraq.

It was a bad idea to start that war in Iraq. We can say that now,
right? Is it controversial to say that the Iraq war was a bad idea?
Aren`t we sort of all on board with that now?

At the outset of the Iraq war, John McCain, of course, was not alone.
John McCain and Chuck Hagel both supported the Iraq war initially, as did
people like John Kerry and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and Dianne
Feinstein and Chuck Schumer and 24 other Democrats in the Senate and all
but one of the Republicans in the Senate all voted yes.

And yes, there were Democrats who were against the war from the
beginning. And that one Republican, Lincoln Chaffee. But there were
enough Democrats who said yes and went along with it. That`s part of the
reason the war happened.

The difference over time is that Republican Chuck Hagel and most of
the Democrats who were wrong about Iraq, they figured out that they were
wrong and they turned against the war and ultimately they tried to end the
war because it had been a mistake.

We can say mistake in the technical sense here, right? The war was
started to go get weapons of mass destruction from Saddam and to stop
Saddam from helping al Qaeda. Well, Saddam had no relationship with al
Qaeda that we were stopping. And Saddam had no weapons of mass
destruction. It was wrong.

The war was factually wrong, right? We have learned that. This is
not a controversial assertion.

John McCain led the Senate today in trying to not just stop Chuck
Hagel from being confirmed as defense secretary. He tried to stop Chuck
Hagel from being confirmed as defense secretary specifically by trying to
force Chuck Hagel to admit, admit it, admit it, that he was the one who was
wrong about Iraq, that Chuck Hagel had been wrong to turn against that war.


MCCAIN: As late as August 29th, 2011 you said, "I disagreed with
President Obama`s decision to surge in Iraq as I did with President Bush on
the surge in Iraq." Do you stand by that -- those comments, Senator Hagel?

HAGEL: Well, Senator, I stand by them because I made them. And --

MCCAIN: Were you right? Were you correct in your assessment?

HAGEL: Well, I would defer to the judgment of history to sort that
out. But I`ll --

MCCAIN: I think the economy deserves your judgment as to whether you
were right or wrong about the surge.

HAGEL: I`ll explain why I made those comments --

MCCAIN: I want to know if you were right or wrong. That`s a direct
question. I expect a direct answer.

HAGEL: The surge assisted in the objective. But if we review the
record a little bit --

MCCAIN: Will you please answer the question? Were you correct or
incorrect when you said that the surge would be "the most dangerous foreign
policy blunder in this country since Vietnam"? Were you correct or
incorrect? Yes or no?

HAGEL: My reference to the surge --

MCCAIN: Are you answering the question, Senator Hagel? The question
is were you right or wrong? That`s a pretty straightforward question.

HAGEL: Well --

MCCAIN: I would like the answer whether you were right or wrong, and
then you are free to elaborate.

HAGEL: Well, I`m not going to give you a yes or no answer on a lot of

MCCAIN: Well, let the record show you refused to answer that
question. Now please go ahead.

HAGEL: Well, if you would like me to explain why --

MCCAIN: I actually would like an answer. Yes or no?

HAGEL: Well, I`m not going to give you a yes or no. I think it`s far
more complicated than that.


MADDOW: Senator McCain and a lot of Republican in Washington is
banking on the lesson learned from the Iraq war, being that we should have
started that war, we should have escalated that war, we should have kept
that war going, and now, 10 years on, our only regret about the Iraq war
should be that we`re not still there. And the only thing wrong with the
whole Iraq war experience is that it had to end. I do not think that is
what America thinks is the only thing that was wrong with the Iraq war.

The country does not look back at the Iraq war and think, hmm, good
move. The country does not wish we were still there. The country does not
think the people who wanted to start the war and keep it going there were

In the NBC poll at the end of the president`s first term, when
Americans were asked, what is the single greatest accomplishment of
President Obama`s first term in office, killing bin Laden came in second.
What came in first was ending the Iraq war. Better than bin Laden.

But the remaining diehard enthusiasts for the Iraq war, whose
political careers survived even the end of that war, have an obvious self-
referential reason to try to make the country believe that there is no real
lesson learned from Iraq, that in fact it was an awesome idea and anyone
against it has explaining to do about being against it. With bitter party
of one John McCain taking point for the Republican Party on this, that
weirdly revisionist agenda about Iraq today became the centerpiece of how
they are trying to stop the defense secretary nomination of John McCain`s
old friend Chuck Hagel.

I do not think the country`s going to go along with him on this. But
you can kind of see why they`d want to try to do it, right?

Joining us now is Steve Clemons with the New America Foundation.
Steve writes at "The Atlantic" magazine where he`s Washington editor at

Steve, thank you so much for being here.


MADDOW: In that face-off between John McCain and Chuck Hagel, we`re
obviously seeing a great difference in temperament, a great difference in
focus. But how do you -- A, how do you judge that face off? But how also
do you compare the way these two men view the Bush-era wars in Afghanistan
and Iraq? What`s the difference between them?

CLEMONS: Well, a couple of things. First of all, Chuck Hagel
probably deserves another Purple Heart after today`s hearing. And I think
the other thing you saw, two great heroes, two titans of American
senatorial politics really, John McCain and Chuck Hagel, who ripped apart
over a very principal difference about deploying men and women in Iraq.
And that is I think really the crux of it.

I don`t think Hagel wanted to tell John McCain that oh, your policy
may have appeared cosmetically to succeed in a really failed war that
didn`t move the dial. And if you take a look at it, you know, Hagel snuck
in some very important data points -- 1,200 Americans died during that
time, thousands of others wounded. And by the way, if you take a look at
the scene, much of the Sunni leadership in Iraq had been run out of the
country by Maliki and the experiment looks fragile. So, you know, what did
you get?

And many people think it wasn`t the deployment of the U.S. forces, it
was the essentially hiring or bribing, if you will, of young Sunnis that
helped stabilize that.

So, there`s a legitimate conversation that could be had. And John
McCain didn`t want a conversation. He wanted to enforce an orthodoxy about
his role and that war and that surge because that`s the dividing line for
him about who`s a real patriot and who`s not.

And that fundamentally was what much of the hearing was about today.
Are you genuinely a patriot and see the world like we in the kind of
national security hawk wing of the GOP do, or do -- but I think Hagel, you
know, while he`s not going to be given credits for the most eloquent, you
know, glad-handing senator or defense secretary? He seemed like a
thoughtful sergeant who had been on the front line, who gave I think a very
compelling set of reasons why this surge didn`t deserve a binary yes-no

MADDOW: Steve, big picture, you`re talking about how John McCain made
his role in the politics of this very central to today`s hearing, and I
hear that`s absolutely what happened. And that`s absolutely one of the
things that`s so important even beyond this nomination. I mean, looking at
James Inhofe stumbling over trying to attack Chuck Hagel on nuclear issues
and other things, looking at Kelly Ayotte not seeming to know very much
about what she was talking about and we`ve been told to expect so much from
her, seeing Ted Cruz come in there and try a sort of like cable news-style
stunt --


MADDOW: -- against Chuck Hagel that really fell flat.

I mean, seeing John McCain amid his -- essentially his competition for
the front-runner on foreign policy and national defense issues in the
Republican Party, really it seems like he is still the guy who speaks for
them with any level of credibility. And he is absolutely fixated on saying
that the Iraq war was a good idea. And I wonder what you think that has as
an impact in terms of broader Republican foreign policy politics.

CLEMONS: Well, I think it keeps it a very narrow band. I found it
very odd that in today`s hearing, you had so much discussion of Iraq and a
war that has already happened and been shut down. Very little mention of
Afghanistan, in which you still have 66,000 U.S. troops deployed, in which
there are a lot of equities for the country to be sorted out.

And you just didn`t seem to have an appetite or interest -- McCain did
mention it very briefly, but that was about it today on Afghanistan, which
is kind of a near and current concern for the country. And you`ve got U.S.
servicemen and women. So we`re relitigating old conflicts in kind of a
bizarre way.

I do have to say that while Kelly Ayotte was tough, Kelly Ayotte, Jeff
Sessions, Roy Blunt demonstrated that they could have differences with
Hagel, they knew their stuff, and they demonstrated a civility in the way
the Senate`s supposed to work, even if you don`t agree.

I was shocked today by Inhofe who essentially asked Hagel if he was
sort of a traitor to some degree in his comments and questions about the
Iranian foreign ministry`s alleged support for Hagel, which they didn`t
actually mention Hagel, but Drudge -- Matt Drudge said it was about Hagel
and Inhofe took that in. It was a remarkable comment for someone that was
a new steward, had stewardship responsibilities as the ranking member of
the Armed Services Committee.

So I worry a little bit not only about the narrow band that John
McCain casts over what we can discuss in national security issues. I also
worry to some degree about a bizarre theater in one of the most important
committees in the United States Senate.

MADDOW: Yes. Seeing the blog world just spelled out -- I mean, I
love blogs, but as a member of the senate on this committee with this point
I would not be dragging that stuff into that hearing room.

Steve Clemons of the New America Foundation, Washington editor-at-
large at "The Atlantic," thank you for being here, Steve. It`s always
great to see you.

CLEMONS: Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: All right. We`ve got another packed show tonight, including
the absolute best reason to watch the Super Bowl. With all due respect to
the Ravens and the 49ers and Beyonce, we`ve got a better reason. Lots more
to come.



SEN. BILL NELSON (D), FLORIDA: I would like for you as the committee
is getting to know you, know something about your service in Vietnam and
your combat experience. Were you wounded, Senator Hagel?

HAGEL: I would respond this way. I -- I think my time is better
served and maybe talk about more the specific things like Senator McCain
asked me about.

I had one fundamental question that I asked myself, on every vote I
took, every decision I made. Was a policy worthy of the men and women that
we were sending into battle and surely to their deaths? I did question a
surge. It wasn`t an aberration to me ever. I always ask the question, is
this worth being the sacrifice? Because there will be sacrifice.


MADDOW: Let`s bring into the conversation now, Joseph Cirincione.
He`s president of the Ploughshares Fund, the global security corporation.
He`s also a member of the council on foreign relations and he`s our go-to
expert on nukes.

Joe, thanks very much for being here.


MADDOW: I specifically want to get your take on one issue that was
broached today at the hearing over Senator Hagel where both sides did not
seem to be talking about the same thing. Here`s a quick clip.


SEN. JAMES INHOFE (R), OKLAHOMA: Senator Hagel has also been an
outspoken supporter of the nuclear disarmament and the Global Zero
Movement. Why would we want to unilaterally disarm ourselves of nuclear

HAGEL: The position of global zero, my position, some of the
individuals, national security leaders, as Senator Nunn talked about,
including himself, has never been unilateral disarmament, ever. Never.


MADDOW: Joe, what are they fighting about here?

CIRINCIONE: Yes. It`s -- Senator Hagel is exactly right. This is
not about unilaterally taking apart our nuclear arsenal. Nobody is
suggesting that.

It`s about reducing it. It`s about adjusting our nuclear arsenal to
the realities of the 21st century world.

And the target of the conservative attacks on Senator Hagel was not
actually Hagel himself today. It was President Obama, because Senator
Hagel`s positions are identical to those of President Obama, Vice President
Biden, Secretary of State Kerry, in fact, the vast majority of the security
establishment in the United States. That we are stuck with an obsolete
arsenal of nuclear weapons that have little relevance to the threats we
face today of cyber security, of nuclear terrorism, of unrest in the Middle

And every dollar that we`re spending on these nuclear weapons is
taking money away from the troops, preventing us from giving the weapons
that they really need.

These senators are stuck in a position of defending a 20th century
arsenal that has little relevance in today`s world.

MADDOW: And hearing them read their talking points about this today,
awkwardly read these talking points as if they do not come naturally to
them and they have been told to read them made me feel like -- the reason I
wanted you to hear Inhofe say it how awkwardly he said it is because it
makes me wonder what constituencies these senators are speaking for, who
believe that reducing the size of the nuclear weapons arsenal would be a
bad thing, that thinks our 5,000th nuclear bomb is make us more safe than
our 4,999th.

Who are they speaking for?

CIRINCIONE: That`s exactly right. There was a very awkwardness about
the questioning.


CIRINCIONE: And some of them clearly did not grasp the strategic
situation they`re debating. I never thought I`d say this, but I miss Jon

Senator Kyl was a fierce defender of the weapons establishment, a
fierce defender of every contract, every bomb. He wanted to build more
nuclear weapons. But he knew what he was talking about and you didn`t get
that sense seriously from anyone who was doing the questioning on a nuclear
policy today.

Some of these represent -- senators are representing defense
contractors. They want to keep the bases in their state. They want to
keep the contracts.

Some of them are just trying to score a political point, to attack the
president as weak and naive and dangerous and even treasonous, as you just

But many of them are just stuck in this Cold War mentality and they
can`t break out of it. It`s not just bayonets and battleships. It`s
nuclear weapons have a decreasing relevance to the threats we face today.
But here, you have these senators from the conservative wing of the party
still clinging to this Cold War arsenal, this Cold War threat.

So when they see somebody like Chuck Hagel, who`s willing to question
assumptions, who`s thinking a new, who wants to state what exactly would we
use a nuclear weapon for, how many do we need, can we do with 400, do we
really need, as you say, 5,000 -- that`s very threatening to them and you
saw that on display today.

MADDOW: In terms of how they fit in to broader conservative politics
on this, isn`t it true that more sort of establishment leading lights of
Republican foreign policy are much closer to Chuck Hagel on this? I mean,
they`ve tried to make Global Zero into some communist thing, but aren`t
there a lot of big-name Republicans associated with that?

CIRINCIONE: Absolutely. So, outside the Senate, when you go and you
look at particularly former Republican officials on this, Colin Powell,
completely with this agenda. George Shultz completely with this agenda.
Henry Kissinger has joined Schultz and former Secretary Bill Perry and Sam
Nunn, two Democrats, in leading the charge for a world free of nuclear
weapons -- part of the inspiration for President Obama`s strategy.

You see former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs siding with this, former
leaders of the strategic command. They recognize we don`t need 5,000
nuclear weapons anymore. We can go to much lower numbers.
The president of the United States is clearly on a path to doing that.
And part of what you saw today was shots across the bow, trying to stop
President Obama from continuing to modernize U.S. nuclear strategy, to
reduce the cost and the expense and the saliency of this obsolete arsenal.

MADDOW: Politically, it will be amazing if the Republican Party
decides they want to go all Curtis LeMay on this issue. But I almost
welcome it.

Joe Cirincione, president of the Ploughshares Fund -- Joe, it is
always great to have you here.

CIRINCIONE: Thanks very much, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks. All right.

Republicans have gotten around recently to saying that they have a
problem attracting women voters. What they are actually doing about that
problem will not help with that problem. Details ahead.


MADDOW: We love maps. Maps tell us important things like for example
what parts of the country like which pro football teams according to

Hmm, people still like the Cowboys. Weird.

We also love electoral maps. We just spent one solid year looking at
them not change very much every single day. Thanks, Nate Silver.

On the road, I still enjoy that old scrunched up road map all crumpled
in the little side pocket thingy inside the driver`s door. Or maybe you`ve
got a GPS, which can tell you exact where you need to go and how to get
there each step of the way. That, of course, is cheating. But it is way
accurate. Unless your GPS does not work, and you wind up here

Or hey, if things go really wrong, you wind up here, grounded in your
224-foot-long U.S. Navy minesweeper on an environmentally significant coral
reef in the Philippines. It turns out there`s something way geekier and
amazing about that story beyond just how that Navy minesweeper got stuck on
that reef in the first place. That is straight ahead.

Actually, if you keep left at the commercial and then you take the
cloverleaf at the E block -- then it`s straight ahead.


MADDOW: OK. After an election year in which Republican nominees
serving in the United States Senate introduced America to the concept of
legitimate rape and the idea that sometimes God wants rapists to impregnate
their victims, after an election like that and its attendant inevitable
electoral defeats, Republican strategists are now coaching their party to
not do that anymore. They`re holding training programs and seminars with
pollsters, all dispensing friendly advice to Republicans about how to stop
talking in public about abortion and rape in ways that creep everybody out.

Quote, "This is actually pretty simple. If you`re about to talk about
rape as anything other than a brutal and horrible crime, stop." Stop
yourself, congressman. Deep breath. Try some gum or maybe a lozenge.

So that`s what`s happening at the national level. Republicans
pleading with other Republicans to please for God`s sake stop talking the
way you talk about women and rape and abortion. That`s the conversation in
D.C. where outside the House of Representatives Republicans are out of
power, and part of the reason they are out of power is their public embrace
of hard-line fringe anti-abortion politics.

But if you look outside D.C., to where Republicans really are in
power, this year, in this legislative session in 2013, the hard-line fringe
anti-abortion politics story is playing out totally differently than it`s
playing out in Washington. In states where Republicans actually control
government, there is not less emphasis right now on this stuff. Like there
is in D.C. There`s more emphasis on it.

2013, so far, shows a whole new Republican offensive opening on
abortion rights. Mississippi, as you know, is poised to become the first
state where Republicans might successfully use state government to shut
down the last abortion clinic left in that state.

There is a handful of states that have only one clinic left.
Mississippi is one of them. And Republicans there say they want to put
that one remaining clinic out of business using regulations that are
targeted to do just that.

As they are getting closer and closer to maybe achieving that goal,
that beleaguered last Mississippi clinic in recent days, look what they
have done. They have painted themselves bright pink, fluorescent pink,
Pepto pink. The clinic`s owner telling a local newspaper, quote, "It`s a
woman`s color. It says we`re right here and we`re not going anywhere."
They are clearly not going without a fight. But the clinic did get their
notice today that the state Health Department intends to revoke their

Meanwhile, outside of Mississippi, in another of the states that is
down to just one clinic, Republicans in North Dakota are now deciding to
pursue the same Mississippi strategy. They are trying to end access to
abortion in their state altogether, by issuing new regulations that
specifically target their one last clinic. They`re doing it exactly the
same way as Mississippi.

North Dakota Republicans started moving the legislation at the state
level this week. Its new regulations targeting specifically the state`s
one last clinic with new rules, same rules as Mississippi, that are
designed to be impossible to comply with. So then they can shut that
clinic down. They have almost completed this process in Mississippi, at
least they think they have, and they are starting this process now in North
Dakota. They are targeting first the states where women are down to one
last clinic as their last remaining connection to something that is
supposedly a constitutionally protected right for them.

They`re only one clinic away from effectively outlawing abortion in
some American states. In a country where constitutionally speaking that`s
not supposed to happen. But it`s not only Mississippi and North Dakota.
The Republican war on abortion rights that the Beltway press keeps saying
is over is anything but over outside that Beltway. It is actually ramped
up so far this year.

Before this year, a handful of states had gotten away with passing
bans on abortion at roughly 20 weeks. I say they got away with that
because under Roe versus Wade, it`s widely agreed that those laws are not
constitutional, but after getting away with it in a few states now the idea
is spreading this year -- so far to Arkansas and Iowa and North Dakota and
Virginia. Republicans in Ohio tried and failed to pass a ban on abortion
effectively at about six weeks, which is often before a woman even knows
she is pregnant. So, it`s effectively a total ban on most abortions. Ohio
Republicans tried for that and failed last year.

But this year they are trying it in Arkansas and Kentucky and
Mississippi and North Dakota. Today, in fact, that measure passed the
Arkansas Senate by a vote of 26-8.

There are also fertilized egg is a person abortion bans that have been
put forward this year already in North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina,
and Virginia. This is the kind of ban that is likely to not just
completely ban all abortion but to also affect birth control and even
fertility treatment. It`s the kind of abortion and birth control ban that
has failed every time it`s been put to a vote, a popular vote, including in
2011 by the voters of Mississippi.

But it is being pushed right now in four states. There are new
restrictions on how women are allowed to access medication abortions, the
abortion pill. In Alabama, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Mississippi, and Texas
37 there are new forced ultrasound bills in Indiana, Missouri, Mississippi,
New Mexico, Wyoming.

There`s also that bill in New Mexico that seeks to ban abortions for
rape victims specifically based on the assertion that the pregnancy is
evidence of the rape and so a doctor can be sent to prison for tampering
with that evidence. That one`s still truck right along.

And in South Dakota, which already passed the longest in the nation
72-hour waiting period for women seeking abortion, there`s a new bill this
year to specify that 72 hours of waiting does not include weekends and
holidays. You aren`t waiting when you`re waiting over those days. That is
just a sampling of what has already been introduced in this session.

Since the 2012 election in D.C., everybody`s focused on Republicans
getting the message about trying not to be the radical fringe hard-line
anti-abortion party anymore. But in the states this is not just
Republicans not getting that message. This is a newly radical, newly
aggressive push in the states that may have the rather immediate effect of
effectively banning abortion into American states, maybe this year. Who
cares if you learn to talk about it less if you are doing it this much
everywhere that you are in charge?

Joining us now is Nancy Northup. She`s president and CEO of Center
for Reproductive Rights, which among other things helps embattled clinics
in states like Mississippi and North Dakota fight against the laws that are
meant to shut them down.

Nancy, thanks for your time.


MADDOW: Did I get anything wrong there?

NORTHUP: No. And I was going to say thank you for covering this.
Because as you point out, what`s going on in the states tends to sort of
sail under the radar screen and we need to pay attention because as you
pointed out, we`re having states that are on the battle of losing their
last clinic.

MADDOW: Well, let`s start with Mississippi there. Your organization
is representing the clinic in a lawsuit against the state to try to block
this new law that would shut down the clinic. What do you think your odds
are? What do you think is the likelihood this clinic is going to actually
get shut?

NORTHUP: Well, that`s going to be up to the decision by the district
court and eventually the higher courts. We feel we`re really strong in the
facts of law.

There`s no question that the state of Mississippi, the sponsor of the
bill, the governor want to make Mississippi an abortion-free state, as they
say. And so, this law was trumped up. They knew that doctors couldn`t
meet the requirements, although Dr. Parker is a board-certified OBY-GYN
everywhere he`s practiced in his long career. Mississippi knew he wouldn`t
be able to get that status in that state.

So, it`s trumped up, and I think the courts are going to take a look
at it and see it for what it is, which is a backhanded way to try to take
away the rights that Roe versus Wade protected and which saw the 40th
anniversary of last week.

MADDOW: I am struck by the fact that North Dakota, which also only
has one clinic, is moving forward not just with the same type of law but
with the exact same rule. Seeing how far it`s gone in Mississippi toward
shutting down the last clinic in Mississippi, how tough that fight is and
how far along we are there, they`re now doing the exact same thing in North

Do you think they saw this starting to succeed in Mississippi? Is
that why we`re seeing it now pop up in this other state?

NORTHUP: Well, I`d like to say it`s not succeeded yet in Mississippi
because it`s blocked by the court. But yes, we see these copycat laws all
over the country, because it is a coordinated effort throughout the states
to stop the American women from being able to access their constitutional
rights. So you`ll see it in the personhood laws are copycat laws, the --
you know, bans on medication abortion are copycat laws.

And we`ve got to get them stopped. And it`s important that people pay
attention even if they don`t live in Mississippi or South Dakota or North
Dakota because it`s coming to a state near you.

MADDOW: Well, how do you run a national campaign about individual
states` efforts? I can see the argument for how those individual states
end up not only copycats but also end up setting precedent in ways that
embolden people in other states.

But how do you convince people that want to defend abortion rights
that national attention is still being focused on this, say, North Dakota
TRAP law?

NORTHUP: Because it`s the base I can notion that constitutional
rights should be the same whether you live in Mississippi or you live in
New York or California.


NORTHUP: And think that people are beginning to say, we need to draw
the line at what`s happening, we`re not going to let our sisters in
Mississippi be deprived of something that is their constitutional right.
And so, it`s paying attention wherever you live to say that we can`t have
this anymore, we have basically a full assault on women`s constitutional
rights and we can`t let, again, some of our sisters in some states not have
the rights that others enjoy.

MADDOW: Why do you think that we are seeing right now at the start of
this new legislative session this big surge of some of the most extreme
anti-abortion proposals?

I mean, we always see a raft of legislation introduced. But I am
struck that in so many states we`re seeing the most aggressive anti-
abortion measures right at the beginning of the session. Why is that?

NORTHUP: Well, because I think they`re seeing that the doors may be
closed for a while in Washington. And so, they want to take it once again
under the radar screen and get where they can.

And again, it also exposes, and we saw this last year during the
election season, that there is a very radical agenda of those who want to
reverse Roe versus Wade, and they want to push that radical agenda because
they think they have an advantage in certain states, because they control
those state legislatures, and they want to go for it.

You know, people often think, you know, it`s not really about
reversing Roe. Well, it is. And these extreme bills show that it is.

MADDOW: Seeing the national polling that a clear majority of
Americans does not want Roe overturned, how does that affect your work?

NORTHUP: Well, it`s really critical because it shows that despite the
fact -- I mean, there`s a lot of reasons -- the decision to have an
abortion, which one in three American women makes that decision, is a very
personal one. So it`s not the kind of thing that people are talking about
every day when they go out in public, but it shows that in fact, there is
an enormous majority in this country that do not want to see these
protections go away, that want to see this remaining a decision that women
make with their families, their loved ones, their doctors.

And so, that`s critically important because for years there`s been a
story out there because the opposition is so aggressive and loud and
extreme that that is in the ascendancy, but that`s is not the case.

MADDOW: Nancy Northup, president and CEO of the Center for
Reproductive Rights, who fights these legal fights. Thanks for joining us
tonight and helping us understand it. I appreciate it.

NORTHUP: Thank you very much.

MADDOW: All right. We have a moment of geek tonight what is not just
pointless geekiness. It`s about a big news story, big deal news story that
is happening on the Sulu Sea. Yes, I said Sulu. As if you need another
reason to watch.




Thank you guys so much. Any questions?


MADDOW: Beyonce, who will perform at the super bowl halftime show
this coming Sunday, and thus today had a press conference which turned into
a press conference not just about the Super Bowl but about the inauguration
last week, where Beyonce lip-synced the national anthem, because she had
not rehearsed or sound-checked enough to want to sing live. And that, of
course, turned into a controversy among people who have a very, very loose
definition of the word "controversy."


BEYONCE: Well, I am a perfectionist. And one thing about me, I
practice until my feet bleed. And I did not have time to rehearse with the
orchestra. It was a live television show and a very, very important,
emotional show for me, one of my proudest moments. And due to the weather,
due to the delay, due to no proper sound check, I did not feel comfortable
taking a risk.

It was about the president and the inauguration, and I wanted to make
him and my country proud. So, I decided to sing along with my prerecorded
track, which is very common in the music industry. And I`m very proud of
my performance.



MADDOW: And so, yes, if you were wondering why she sang the national
anthem at the press conference, it was both to prove that she can sing it
live and boy howdy, can she sing it live. But also to say she will not be
lip-syncing at the Super Bowl this upcoming weekend and so, the nation`s
worst fears were allayed, or something.

But here`s a bigger deal that is also pegged to the Super Bowl. But
instead, it is about Newtown, Connecticut and about the families and kids
who survived when a gunman armed with a Bushmaster assault rifle and
multiple extended-capacity magazines killed 20 first-graders and six grown-
ups at Sandy Hook Elementary School in December. And he killed his mother
and he killed himself.

The families of Newtown last night testified for a bipartisan task
force at the Connecticut State Assembly on gun violence. They held it in
Newtown at a school gym. The hearing lasted for six hours.

On Sunday at the Super Bowl -- yes, Beyonce will sing at halftime.
But before that and before the singer Alicia Keys performs the national
anthem at the start of the Super Bowl, 26 kids from Sandy Hook Elementary
School are going to sing "America the Beautiful." at the Super Bowl.

So watch the halftime show or, whatever suits you, but do not miss the

Go, Sandy Hook.



CHARACTER: Very interesting.


MADDOW: Very interesting.

In the "Moment of Geek", it`s been too long, I have missed you.

OK, if you are driving a car and you break down on the side of the
road, you call a tow truck, right? And the two truck, which is tough pick
up truck with rig with a fancy back end on it comes in and rescues you on
the side of the road.

If, however, you are a big right truck driver or a bus driver and your
semi truck or your bus breaks down on the side of the road, you can`t just
call a normal tow truck, right? Instead, you have to call one of these
guys. You have to call the mega tow truck. You have to call the bigger
stronger tow truck to deal with your bigger vehicle needing help.

Who do you call if what you are driving when you break down on the
side of the road is Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser? Nearly two
football fields long and weighing 10,000 tons? If you break down in that,
if you break down and need rescuing in a vehicle that looks like this? The
tow truck that you call to rescue you is this guy. A U.S. Navy Safeguard
class salvage ship. It is the coolest thing in the Navy. It is shorter
than that missile cruiser. It is stouter. It is massively overpowered
both for going forward and for going in reverse. Its haul is reinforced to
be like one of those ice breaking ships.

And when a U.S. Navy guided missile cruiser runs aground on a coral
reef a half mile off the end of the runway at Honolulu airport, where all
of the planes flying in and out of the airport get a perfect view of that
humiliatingly, embarrassingly, totally stuck ship, when that is your
particular roadside assistance need for your vehicle, if you are the U.S.
Navy, what you call in is the baddest tow truck in the world. You call in
something like the Salvor, the salvage ship to please help.

When that U.S. Navy guided missile cruiser got stuck off the end of
the Honolulu airport runway in February 2009, also embarrassing, it took
three and a half long days to that get thing unstuck.

They tried everything. They offloaded hundreds of tons of water,
hundreds of tons of water, tons of equipment, they even unloaded all the
sewage. They took the crew off. They took everything. But they couldn`t
get it move.

The salvage ship alone tried again and again and again to tow that
ship off the reef without success. In the end, what did it is it took the
salvage ship plus additional tug boats all pulling at once, all full
throttling those huge engines all at once to get that ship yanked off the
reef so everybody at the airport would stop pointing and laughing at the
Navy and the Navy could get on with the business of firing that ship`s
commanding officer.

Giant ships do not run fast aground very often, particularly giant
U.S. Navy ships do not do that very often. But when they do, salvage ships
are the world`s most amazing tow trucks. They can do anything. They can
fight fires on other ships. They can repair stuff that no one else can
repair. They have dive teams on board that fix other ship`s broken
propellers. They find lost bombs at the bottom of the sea. They retrieve
downed aircraft that have sunk to the bottom of the sea. Who do you think
does that? It`s salvage ships. Who knew?

They also have the job of yanking ships off reefs when ships
occasionally get stuck on reefs. And right now, that same salvage ship
that yanked the guided missile cruiser off the reef a Honolulu aircraft,
with help from seven tug boat friends, that same salvage ship is now in the
Philippines where another U.S. Navy ship, a minesweeper this time has been
stuck for two weeks now on a reef that is not just another coral reef, it
is, in fact, a UNESCO world heritage site coral reef.

Nobody really knows why the ship got stuck there. The National
Geospatial Intelligence Agency apparently maintained at least one
navigational chart for that area that had the reef charted eight miles from
where it actually was? Oops. But not all of their charts said that, and
we`re not sure that this ship was using that chart. So, maybe that was the
problem, but maybe not. The Navy is still investigating that part of it.

It should be noted that another big ship, a Greenpeace ship, grounded
on the same reef seven years ago and they blamed a bad map at the time as
well, but we will see in terms of that investigation.

This minesweeper though, meanwhile, is so incredibly stuck that the
Navy is about to go to really extreme measures to fix the problem. The
ship started off at first just stuck on the bow with the rest of the ship
off the reef, just the front of it was stuck. They tried offloading
everything heavy, offloading the crew, offloading water fuel, everything.
They tried to tow it off at high tide once they unloaded everything.
Nothing from the tugs, nothing from the bad ass from tow truck salvage
ship, nothing from that ship and the tugs combined -- nothing worked.

And eventually, the ship swung around and sheered into the reef. So
not just the bow but the whole ship was stuck broadside and they cannot
figure out how to get it unstuck. And so, now, they are doing something
they never do. They are doing something that specifically they have done
since 1971, when Typhoon Rose slammed in to Hong Kong Harbor and got a U.S.
Navy supply ship so stuck that they could do nothing else.

What the navy is about to do in the Philippines, the thing that is
literally the last resort, the last thing they can do, the thing they never
want to do, the thing they are about to do, if you were back in your car
broke down on the side of the road, what they are about to do is the
equivalent of deciding not to use the tow truck at all, but instead to call
in the jaws of life for your car. They can`t tow this ship. They cannot
fix this ship. So they are going to tear it apart.

They haven`t done this in 40 years. But the new plan for dealing with
the stuck U.S. Navy minesweeper on UNESCO world heritage coral reef in the
Philippines is to have the salvage ship give up it`s recovery efforts for
the ship and instead have these ships take offs take over, giant, giant,
heavy lift crane ships. These two -- these two specifics -- these two
specific ships are right now steaming toward the minesweeper stuck on the

The Navy told us today that that the first ones are probably going to
be there on Saturday, and once it gets there, they are going to cut the
minesweeper into pieces to get it out of there. It could take more than a
month to cut it up.

And when it is done, the U.S. Navy will no longer have 14 avenger
class minesweepers. We won`t have 14, we will have 13. And we could owe
the Philippines $300 per square meter of coral that we damage. And if this
did happen because someone put the reef on the map eight miles wrong, then
somebody in mapville is going to be in big, big trouble.

We`ll keep you posted.


Have a great night.


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