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'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Tuesday, April 16th, 2013

April 16, 2013

Guests: Clint Van Zandt, Don Clark, Larry Johnson, William Mackey, Dan
Shaughnessy, Brent O`Connor

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews with the
latest on the Boston Marathon terror bombings.

We`re awaiting the start of a news conference right now from Massachusetts
governor Deval Patrick, the FBI and other law enforcement officials, and
we`re going to bring you that when it begins.

In the meantime, here`s where things stand at this hour. As of now, three
people are dead and more than 180 wounded, some in critical condition.
Many of the wounded, including those who lost limbs, are facing, of course,
years of recovery and therapy. And one of those cases involves two
brothers who both lost a leg.


and as a matter of fact, really amazed by the resolve of our patients.
Some of them woke up today with no leg, and they told me that they`re happy
to be alive. They thought they would die as they saw the blood spilling
out. They thought that they would lose their life right there and then.
As they woke up today from surgery and they saw that they`re not dead, they
feel extremely thankful.


MATTHEWS: Wow. Well, this -- the boy, by the way, 8-year-old Martin
Richard, has become the face of the tragedy. He died yesterday. His
sister and mother were also very seriously wounded and they`re in the
hospital right now.

Well, today we learned the identity of another fatality, 29-year-old
Krystle Campbell of Medford, Mass. She was with her best friend watching
that friend`s boyfriend cross the finish line when she was killed in the
blast. Talk about going from joy to -- well, to heaven, maybe. We also
got new video from a marathon runner named Jennifer Treacy, who was
approaching the finish line when the first bomb went off.

We`re also learning new details about the bombs themselves. We now know
that they contained explosives -- they contained explosives and shrapnel
packed inside a pressure cooker, a regular kitchen pressure cooker, and
they were placed inside backpacks. We also now know that the bombs were
set off by an electric timer. The Boston Globe has reported that a circuit
breaker was used to trigger the dual explosions.

And President Obama did something today he didn`t do yesterday. He called
it an act of terrorism.


cowardly act. And given what we now know about what took place, the FBI is
investigating it as an act of terrorism. Any time bombs are used to target
innocent civilians, it is an act of terror.


MATTHEWS: Well, there`s still so much we don`t know. Who did this? No
one knows. Why? Was it an act of domestic terrorism or foreign? Was this
the work of an individual or a group of people?

And one thing worth remembering. Despite the stepped-up police presence
there at the site, despite the advanced forensics used by the
investigators, despite all the cellphones we`re using, all those videos out
there, there`s no guarantee that who is responsible for this will be
discovered any time soon. It took nearly two years, let`s remember, for
the FBI to locate and arrest the Unabomber -- two decades, rather, the
Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski.

Let`s begin this hour with former CIA counterterrorism director Larry
Johnson. Your thoughts about this kind of challenge and the working
relationships among the various agencies, federal and state.

usually in all of these events has been the interaction between federal law
enforcement and local law enforcement. In the 1993 World Trade Center
bombing, because that was really a federal facility, the federal government
got involved, but immediately almost had a fistfight between FBI and ATF.

So now what you`ve got, it looks like a good working relationship between
President Obama and Governor Deval Patrick has allowed a very smooth
handoff from the Boston police to the FBI. And watching just the press
conferences so far, they`ve been sending the right signals of having a
joint communicative working relationship. And that`s critical to having an
effective investigation.

MATTHEWS: You and I were talking before about Lockerbie, and how you could
determine through finding just little particles of machinery...


MATTHEWS: ... that this was perhaps done by a certain kind of detonator.
How far along are we? We already know now it was something to do with a
circuit board. What does that tell you?

JOHNSON: They`re saying that they found a circuit board. You know, how
big of a piece, we don`t know. Remember, in the Pan Am 103 case, it was
about the size of your thumbnail. And it took well over a year before that
was really nailed down.

I think in this case, because you`re not having to go out and look for
debris scattered all over fields of Scotland, this is going to be much
easier to develop the forensic case of putting the evidence together.

MATTHEWS: Can you find out where somebody bought something like that?

JOHNSON: Potentially, yes.

MATTHEWS: How about the pressure cookers? Now, they`re kitchen products.
I was asking people -- apparently, any Walmart, any, you know, Sonoma, or
whatever it`s called, these kind of stores, almost any store, high end or
low end or middle end, will have it available, that kind of thing.

JOHNSON: Well, you can always tell what a particular brand is and even
trace it back to where that was produced. It`s important to note that that
particular model, that type of explosive, has been very popular along the
Pakistan-India border.

MATTHEWS: What does it do to have -- to screw on top of a...

JOHNSON: Well, it`s not so much to screw. It`s a -- they have developed a
system where you put the explosives inside. It could have been ammonium
nitrate. It could have been triacetate triperoxide, TATP.


JOHNSON: It could have -- you know, it was not likely a high military
explosive because of the smoke color. But...

MATTHEWS: Why does the compression build up more because...

JOHNSON: Well, it`s not so much the compression. It is -- it gives you
something -- you can hold it in there. You can put some bearings in. It`s
a nice, convenient container. The detonator will go in through the top.
But you still have to figure out a way to set off -- for that detonator to

MATTHEWS: What does it tell you that these were set off sequentially, that
one goes, and then a couple seconds later, another goes? How hard a
project is that for an amateur malevolent Unabomber type? And how much
does it suggest an organized international operation?

JOHNSON: You know, take your scale of zero, where you can`t even open a
door, and 10 being the world`s best bomb maker, this is about a 6. This
means somebody did the prior planning. They knew how to develop the
devices. They were able to set the timers in such a way that they didn`t
detonate beforehand and they detonated close enough to each other. This
has been a hallmark of al Qaeda in the past.

MATTHEWS: Closer to organized terrorism groups than a crackpot?

JOHNSON: Yes, absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Let me go down to Chuck Todd, who`s White House correspondent.
Chuck, is there any sense from the top what we`re facing here? Is there
any attitude you`re coming across about whether this is foreign, domestic
or an individual, malevolent, you know, people hater?

-- not from here at the White House. What you see is a lot of veterans on
Capitol Hill hearing the information that they`re getting and coming to
certain conclusions about -- that this, because of the lack of
international groups that seem to be -- the lack of intelligence involving
links to potential international groups, that you see some of the folks in
Congress hearing the information that they were briefed on and seeing it as
pointing to homegrown.

There`s a lot of the, quote, "gut check," that the longer this goes on,
that we don`t have a clear idea overseas that there`s a connection, the
more likely that it`s homegrown. But there`s a real hesitance around here
to draw any major conclusions because they have so little to go on. I
mean, getting the forensics, if you will, around the explosive device


TODD: ... seems to be helping them, but beyond that, they still don`t have
a good connection.

MATTHEWS: Let`s go to Governor Deval Patrick right now. He`s beginning
his press conference.

GOV. DEVAL PATRICK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We`re going to hear from the SAC
for the FBI, Rick Deslauriers, on the investigation, and then the mayor and
I have a couple of follow-on comments and announcements with respect to the
recovery. And then any of us are available to take questions from any of

So let me start with Special Agent Deslauriers (INAUDIBLE)

So let me start with Special Agent DesLauriers

There you go.

Governor Patrick.

And again, my name is -- good afternoon.

My name is Rick DesLauriers.

I`m the special agent in charge of the FBI`s Boston Division.

Let me recap our investigative efforts this afternoon.

Yesterday at this time, our collaborative efforts were focused on saving
lives and treating the injured. At the same time, resources were directed
to ensure the safety of our community. As soon as those important tasks
were completed, first responders focused on establishing a criminal
investigation. The FBI`s Boston Joint Terrorism Task Force, composed of
more than 30 federal, state and local law enforcement agencies, including
the Boston Police, the Massachusetts State Police, ATF, HSI, United States
Secret Service and others, responded to the scene. Many of them were
already there as part of the general security for the marathon already in

The first step law enforcement took was to secure the physical area around
the blast for the purpose of preserving evidence in the area related to the
devices itself. This morning, the FBI, along with Boston P.D.
Massachusetts State Police and ATF, officially began its forensic evidence
recovery effort at the site.

Their goal was to recover physical items related to the blast. Those items
were -- have been recovered and are being sent to the FBI`s laboratory in
Quantico, Virginia.

There, specialized examiners will reconstruct the device or devices and
determine its makeup and components. Among items partially recovered are
pieces of black nylon, which could be from a backpack, and what appear to
be fragments of bee bees and nails possibly contained in a pressure cooker

We are expediting this blast evidence to our laboratory in Quantico,
Virginia for a complete and thorough analysis.

In addition, this morning it was determined that both of the explosives
were placed in a dark-colored nylon bag or backpack. The bag would have
been heavy because of the components believed to be in it. At this point,
it is difficult to determine specific components used until we can
eliminate other factors which may have already been present in the
environment. In fact, we won`t know with some certainty until the
laboratory completes its final review.

Away from the scene yesterday afternoon, the JTTF began its investigation.
Immediately after the bombing, the FBI initiated a command post that was
assigned to the JTTF, intelligence analysts and analysts and other
personnel from every state, local and federal government agency associated
with JTTF, and many others on their own, including Boston P.D. and Mass.
State Police. More than 1,000 law enforcement officers across many
agencies have been assigned to this investigation via the command post.

They began canvasing sources, reviewing government and public source
databases, and conducting interviews with eyewitnesses and others to
determine who is responsible for this crime. We are doing this
methodically, carefully, yet with a sense of urgency.

All across the nation and around the world, the force of the United States
is working hard to locate those responsible. Already, the FBI has received
more than 2,000 tips as of noon today, many of which have already been
reviewed, analyzed and vetted. We will continue to work around the clock
tirelessly, side by side with our partners, to continue to investigate and
act on these leads.

Regarding who might be suspected of this event, the investigation is in its
infancy. As law enforcement, it is our responsibility to thoroughly review
each and every piece of evidence. Some of our activity you may see, some
of it you won`t. But rest assured, we are working hard to get the answers.

At this time, there are no claims of responsibility. The range of suspects
and motives remains wide open. Importantly, the person who did this is
someone`s friend, neighbor, co-worker or relative. We are asking anyone
who may have heard someone speak about the marathon or the date of April
15th in any way that indicated that he or she may target the event to call
us. Someone knows who did this.

Cooperation from the community will play a crucial role in this
investigation. We ask that businesses review and preserve video
surveillance, video and other business records in their original form. And
we are asking the public to remain alert and alert us of the following
activity -- any individual who expressed a desire to target the marathon;
suspicious interest in researching how to create explosive devices; the
noise of explosions in remote areas prior to yesterday, which may have been
used as tests by those responsible for these acts; someone appearing to be
carrying an unusually heavy dark colored bag yesterday around the time of
the blasts and in the vicinity of the blasts.

As further substantive details become available that are appropriate for
release, together, we will either issue a press release or hold a press
conference. And tomorrow, we plan to hold another press conference in the
early afternoon.

Thank you very much.

And I want to thank the public for their tremendous support in this
investigation. It is crucial to our ultimate success. And I thank the
residents of the City of Boston and the citizens of the Commonwealth of
Massachusetts for this information that has been provided to us.

I also want to thank the Westin Hotel here for their services in allowing
us to use their facility. We are very grateful for that.

Thank you very much.

DEVAL: Thank you, Rick.

Mr. Mayor?

MAYOR THOMAS MENINO (D), BOSTON: Thank you, Governor.

Thank you all for being here once again this afternoon.

As the investigation continues and more victims are being identified, in
true Boston fashion, we are receiving many offers of help and assistance.
And just earlier today, Senator Warren and I visited several of the victims
of the tragedy. Your heart goes out to them and their families during this
very difficult time for them.

I also want to talk about the police, the fire, EMS, all those services,
and the volunteers who reacted quickly during this time of tragedy, also.
Because of the outpouring of help, we`ve set up an organization, One Fund
Boston, which is to collect money to help people who might need help during
this time. The Web site is And If you go to that site
and donate any resources you have.

Some of the folks who have stepped up so far are John Hancock, John Connors
(ph), John Fish, Steve Pagliuca, Larry Lucchino. The whole business
community is coming together. And the Boston Foundation. They`re all
there willing to help.

That`s how Boston has come together like it`s never come before. We`re all
here, because this tragedy is not going to stop Boston. We are Boston. We
are one community and we will not let terror take us over.

PATRICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor. And thanks to all of the donors,
the inaugural donors, if you will, for the one fund Boston and those who
will contribute. In the nature of contributions, the lieutenant governor
and I visited a couple of hospitals this afternoon as well, and one of the
things that we had an opportunity to do is thank the extraordinary medical
teams who have responded to the needs of people who were hurt.

One of the things we learned is that there is a need for blood on a
sustained basis. So, this will be -- I just want to make sure everybody
understands this the way I think I understand it. Do not go and make a
donation today, but next week and the week after that, there will be an
ongoing need for blood donations.

So, members of the public who are following these announcements who are
inclined and able to make blood donations at their local hospital or
through their Red Cross, next week and the week after that are medical
professionals anticipate a need. We are going to have an interfaith
service. It will be at 11 o`clock Thursday morning. It will be held at
the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in the south end.

I`m very pleased that the president will join us for that to help us all
heal. Another point that I wanted to make before I open it up to
questions, you`ve heard Special Agent DesLauriers and many, many others in
law enforcement tell you what we can tell you about the ongoing
investigation and the fact that there is not yet an identified suspect.
These are times when all kinds of forces, sometimes, conspire to make
people start to think of categories of people in sometimes uncharitable

This community will recover and will heal if we turn to each other rather
than on each other. And one of the things that we`ll emphasize at the
interfaith service, and that we want to emphasize by our example every day,
is that we are one community as the mayor said. We are all in this
together and the sensitivity we show to each other as we heal will be an
important part of how we heal. And now, we`re happy to take your


QUESTION: Mr. DesLauriers, can I ask you just a few questions, sir?

Was black nylon residue found at both of the bomb blasts? And what
specifically can you tell us about the rice cooker? Do you have an actual
piece of the rice cooker?

pressure cooker, possibly -- possibly a pressure cooker, black nylon bags
possibly at both sites.

QUESTION: So, two bags?

DESLAURIERS: Yes, black nylon bags, as opposed to I think you said
residue. But...

QUESTION: You said that they were heavy. About how heavy? And were they
concealed with anything else, like a grocery bag? (OFF-MIKE)

DESLAURIERS: I can`t characterize the specifics of that. We`re -- we`re
postulating that they needed to be heavy bags to carry the explosive
devices inside of them. They would not be light bags.

QUESTION: And just one more question. Does it appear that they were twin
bombs? Was the damage the same at both? Were the fragments the same in
both, the nylon the same at both?

DESLAURIERS: I think that would be speculation right now before the
evidentiary review is complete.


QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) anything that would -- did you find a circuit board
or a fragment of a circuit board or anything that might (OFF-MIKE)

DESLAURIERS: The evidentiary -- evidentiary -- evidentiary view is still
ongoing right now. And I wouldn`t want to speculate or characterize
anymore than I already have.


QUESTION: How uncommon is it at this point -- how uncommon is it at this
point in the investigation, in this type of attack not to have anybody come

DESLAURIERS: It`s -- it`s -- there are a variety of reasons why. And this
is a very complicated investigation.

It is going to be pursued methodically, carefully, diligently, but with a
sense of urgency. And it is -- we are still very -- we are barely 24 hours
on into this investigation, so I would say that this is still in its early,
early stages. And that`s the best way I can characterize that right now.

QUESTION: Governor, has the city or state ever issued guidelines to
commercial property owners on how to deal with these kinds of attacks or
disasters in the past? And are you going to do that going forward, if you
haven`t? And as they`re rebuilding their -- their properties on Boylston
Street, will you encourage them to do so with reinforced glass windows

PATRICK: It`s one question per customer. You know that, right?


QUESTION: Got to get them all in at once.

PATRICK: So I don`t -- I don`t frankly know the answer to the first
question, other than the guidance that folks along the route get in
preparation for a specific event.

In terms of how we go forward, I would just like to remind everyone, we
have had 116 years of incident-free marathons. And every year we have
learned from the last experience.

This is a painful and tragic lesson, but we will learn from this as well.
And next year`s marathon will be even bigger and better.

QUESTION: How many people went through that area over the course of the
day, would you say? What`s the ballpark range of how many people (OFF-

PATRICK: I don`t know the answer to that. Do you?

DAVIS: We do not. We do not...

PATRICK: Are you talking about in the area where the blast occurred in


DAVIS: Yes. . We don`t make specific estimates on crowds, but tens of
thousands of people are right at the finish line, and this group of people
extends off and on for 27.2 miles -- 26.2 miles.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) Twenty-four hours later, how much closer are we to
finding out who did this?

DAVIS: There`s been a lot of work done. They are literally going over the
crime scene with a fine-tooth comb, and there`s a lot of information that`s
coming from the evidence and from our analysis of video.

But it`s very early in the investigation, as Mr. DesLauriers has said quite
clearly, this has to be a methodical investigation. There is not a rush to
any particular end. We have to be very cautious here.

QUESTION: Special Agent DesLauriers -- Special Agent DesLauriers, knowing
what you know about the devices now, are these things that bomb-sniffing
dogs could find?

DESLAURIERS: I couldn`t speculate on that right now.

Again, we`re still in the process -- as Commissioner Davis just mentioned,
we`re still in the process of going through the evidentiary review at the
crime scene. That process is not completed yet. It is ongoing. And I
wouldn`t want to speculation or characterize that anymore until that
process is complete.


QUESTION: Mayor Menino, do you know -- Mayor Menino, do you know -- Mayor
Menino, do you know anyone who was hurt, and have you spoken to the
families of anyone who was killed?

THOMAS MENINO (D), MAYOR OF BOSTON: Yes, I visited several of the families
this afternoon at the hospital.

And they`re very strong, the victims. The families needed some help. But
a young woman I saw there who lost a leg, she had a lot of courage, and I
think they`re -- they`re hanging in there. And we`re offering them all the
kinds of help we can, both at the medical, but also the city help that we
will be there for them.

And those families, you know, they`re going through very difficult times
now, and we, as a city, we as individuals, have to support them as best we

QUESTION: Did you know any of the families?

MENINO: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: From Boston?

MENINO: I did.

QUESTION: Is there anything that you can say...


MENINO: Pardon?

QUESTION: Anything that you can say about...



You know, guys, you want all the answers. Some of these things are
personal things. When you get down to things like that, it`s very
personal. And you don`t get into facts of conversations with victims who
you know personally.

QUESTION: Commissioner Davis, you said earlier that you paid special
attention to (OFF-MIKE)

DAVIS: Well, as the governor said, we review each one of these events.

And at the end of our review last year, we determined that the crowds were
larger than usual. And so we put extra officers at the -- at the event,
especially -- especially towards the end of the race, and especially when
the runners were first coming in.

But, as I said, if you review the pictures and the videotape, there was a
significant amount of police presence there. The officers are lining the
route, looking into the crowd, which is what their job is.


DAVIS: No, as I said, we talked to our federal and state partners. There
was no specific threat about this event. This was a standard threat

After 9/11, we`re certainly very vigilant, but there was nothing specific
about this particular event. We had teams of undercover officers in the
crowd working the crowd at the end of the race, which is standard
procedure, because of pickpockets that occur in that area.

Those teams were out there. They were fully deployed, as were our EOD
dogs, which were in the area all through the race.


QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) the effort on the part of Boston College, I believe,
who organized 8,000 people to walk the last five miles of the marathon
route? Is that something you`re aware of?

MENINO: I`m not aware of it all.




QUESTION: And did law enforcement know anything about that?


QUESTION: Agent DesLauriers (OFF-MIKE) there`s a mention of circuitry or a
circuit board kind of device that was found.

Can you say anything about that? I`m assuming now you guys have swabbed
the residue and know the agent that was used (MIKE) Is that something you
want to share with the store owners (OFF-MIKE)

DESLAURIERS: No, I think -- I believe the circuit board was brought up by
a member of the media right here and not in my remarks. So, I`m not
prepared to speak to that, any aspect pertaining to that right now.

But certainly going out -- going out to the community, conducting a logical
investigation, I can assure you that the joint terrorism task force is
doing that as we speak.


QUESTION: Special Agent DesLauriers, are there indications of how much --
of whether it took a lot of planning to do this, that they may have been
planning for many years, as I asked the police commissioner?

DESLAURIERS: Again, hopefully, that will come out in the investigation. I
wouldn`t -- again, that would be speculation on my part right now to
speculate how much planning went into this.

I do not want to provide you with anything that might be inaccurate
information ultimately, so, I wouldn`t want to speculate on that.



DAVIS: The third victim, we`re having trouble identifying, so I don`t know
where we are with that.


DESLAURIERS: Commissioner Davis advises me that there is not enough work
done right now to make a notification to next of kin for the third victim.

QUESTION: Special Agent, can you be clear of how many pressure cooker
remnants you may have found, possible pressure cooker remnants, one -- one
at each site? Can you just be clear on that?

And, two, given that, your discussion of pressure cookers, what`s the
sophistication of that? Is this something that can be made in a basement?

DESLAURIERS: I think pressure cookers, we`re familiar with those. They`re
relatively ordinary cooking devices historically going back several years.

As far as what precisely what evidence was found at what location, I
wouldn`t want to go into the details of that right now, but there are
multiple pieces of evidence that are at the crime scene, as you might well
imagine from the serious, tragic nature of this event. That analysis is
ongoing right now.

And I wouldn`t -- again, as I mentioned before, I wouldn`t want to provide
you with inaccurate information right now as to whether specific pieces of
information were found at both crime scenes, information that -- that could
possibly be a pressure cooker was found at the site and we are putting that
out to the public in attempt to generate any lead information.

QUESTION: When will the troops be gone from the city?

PATRICK: When will the National Guard be gone?


PATRICK: When they`re not needed anymore.

The job of the National Guard right now is to secure the crime scene. The
work of going through the crime scene continues. We`re not going to rush
that. That will involve some inconvenience to people, but I can`t tell you
when that work will be finished.

The other thing the National Guard is doing is helping with the random bag
checks in the T. And that will continue for the next day or so anyhow.



DESLAURIERS: We have had a tremendous outpouring -- outpouring of support
from the public in terms of video that has been submitted to us. It has
been tremendous.

And we are analyzing that right now, taking a look at it. We are bringing
specialists up from Quantico to assist us who are digital video -- digital
video analysis experts. And we are bringing the best possible resources
that the FBI can bring to bear to Boston to participate in that very aspect
of this investigation.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) Can you describe what you`re getting from -- from the
public, what types of pictures and video?

DESLAURIERS: I -- it`s various video submissions of the area around the
crime scene, crime scenes, that were taken around the time of the blasts,
both before and afterwards.

All video like this, we encourage the public and particularly business
owners in that area to continue to submit this information. This is very,
very important. And we thank the city citizens of Boston and the
Commonwealth of Massachusetts for submitting this information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last question, folks.


QUESTION: Can we hear from the ATF, please, about the potential -- what
potential explosive might be that was used? Many witnesses are saying they
smelled something like gunpowder.

that`s correct.

That has been reported, that type of smell. But we`re not prepared yet to
go into the specifics as to the blast scene. It`s a fairly expansive,
large scene. And that`s why we`re having to be so methodical in -- in how
we`re processing it.

We do know that there has been some debris recovered from some of the
rooftops nearby, as well as some of the debris has been embedded in some of
the buildings nearby. So that gives you just kind of a scope of the power
of the blast. And you can see how it was so devastating.

QUESTION: White smoke suggests gunpowder.

MARQUEZ: We`re not -- we`re not prepared to really get that specific yet.


PATRICK: I want to ask a favor on behalf of somebody I met this afternoon.

The lieutenant governor and I were over at Tufts Medical Center, and we
visited a young woman. We visited a number of victims, but one young woman
named Victoria (ph) who is a Northeastern student who is in the hospital
because of a serious shrapnel wound she had in her leg in the site of the -
- around the site of the first blast.

She was scared. She was carried, I think, by a firefighter, we think by a
firefighter to the medical tent and, really, as she described it,
hysterical. There was a person who helped calm her down who she said was a
-- who described himself as an Army sergeant, an Afghanistan vet.

I don`t know whether he was assigned to the medical tent or like so many
other people there and elsewhere in the commonwealth just jumped in to
help. But his name is Tyler. That`s all we know, Tyler. And one of the
things he said to her to calm her down was to show her his own shrapnel, so
that -- a wound or scar from his own shrapnel wound from when he was in

Victoria very, very much wants to thank Tyler personally. So if Tyler is
out there and listening or reading your reports, we would love to hear from
Tyler so that we can connect him to Victoria. And you can -- Tyler can get
in touch with us by dialing 617-725-4000.

If you just get that word out there, I would appreciate the favor, and,
more to the point, Victoria would.

Thank you all for coming.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen (OFF-MIKE)

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: We`re back with Larry Johnson to go through that, an
expert on counterterrorism.

What did you make of the request by the governor and the other officials
there, including Special Agent DesLauriers, that we begin to look out there
and call out the people who heard bombs being tested? Is this something
that a person, amateur or a professional, or a group would test a bomb like
this somewhere in the vicinity perhaps before they did it?

Well, an amateur would not have tested the bomb. Somebody that knew
something about explosives would understand that you need to build the
device, take it out, test it to see if it works and make sure if you`re
going to do a prototype or you`re going to set off two simultaneously that
you can do that.

So they`re going to -- and that had to be done in some, you know, remote
rural area, probably in or near around, you know, Boston. Maybe it came
from outside of there, but somebody tested this somewhere. So that`s
number one what they`re looking for.

MATTHEWS: And the second thing, which is so pedestrian, try to remember if
you saw somebody carrying dark bags, nylon bags with something that may
weigh 40 pounds each in them or 40 pounds all together, a heavy weight.


MATTHEWS: It`s one thing to lift up 40 pounds. It`s another thing to
carry it around for a while.

JOHNSON: Well, see, these bombs didn`t just magically appear. Somebody
had to carry them there and place them...


MATTHEWS: It`s like cement or cinder blocks.

JOHNSON: Well, yes, the most -- my guess on this, based upon looking up
pressure cookers, you have a six-liter model. This is a bigger one.

Six liters will weigh about 13 pounds filled with water. So, if you packed
it with some explosives, whether it`s ammonium nitrate, or triacetate,
triperoxide, you put in some nails and some other metal, that could way
upwards 15 to 20 pounds.

So, if you have got two of those, it`s -- you`re going to be carrying a
weight. Now, one of the problems they have is you had a lot of athletes
carrying gym bags and some things into that area.


JOHNSON: But this one would have been a little heavier-weighted.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I think it would be something somebody might know. What
are you carrying there?



JOHNSON: Now, there`s -- you have got to consider two possibilities. If
this was two or more individuals involved, then it`s one person carrying 20
pounds to put it.

If it`s one individual -- and I think the fact that there are only two
devices, to me -- you know, yesterday, I thought it could possibly have
been a conspiracy with more than just one. Now the fact that they were
just confined to two devices, I think you have got to look at it may have
just been a lone wolf, one person who was inspired, maybe sympathetic to a
particular cause, but they have clearly followed a playbook that was
developed in Afghanistan...


JOHNSON: ... Pakistan, India.

MATTHEWS: Let`s go to the device itself.

"The Boston Globe" has reported that it in -- it was, in fact, a circuit
board. Now, a circuit board would tell you what? Would it tell you the
person was there on the spot, that they were able to ignite it or to
detonate it from afar with perhaps a cell phone or a garage door opener
from near at hand?


JOHNSON: The most likely case with a circuit board is that it was a
circuit board out of a timer of some sort...


JOHNSON: ... so that you could physically set the time...

MATTHEWS: And then leave.

JOHNSON: And then, once the timer would hit, it would -- you know, it
would have some batteries connected to it, most likely. So they`d be
looking to see if they recovered batteries.

And the electrical charge that would hit the detonator, and, you know, the
detonator could consist of something like TATP or a blasting cap, that was
would set off the explosion. So...

MATTHEWS: That`s why at the airport, which I have spent a lot of at -- a
lot of us in our world do -- they make sure you never see a bag sitting

JOHNSON: Right. If you see...


MATTHEWS: Because that could be just like this, a timer...


JOHNSON: If you see a bag that hasn`t been identified or moved, grabbed by
somebody, tell somebody...


JOHNSON: Larry Johnson, stick with us.

Let`s go now right to Clint Van Zandt. We have been relying upon this
gentleman. He`s a former FBI profiler and an MSNBC contributor. Also, Don
Clark, he`s a former FBI special agent in charge of the Houston office.

Let`s start right now. Let`s go to Clint.

Clint, you`re so good at this kind of thing. What did you make of the new
information today since we talked last, the fact that it was BBs, it was
nails, it was apparently a pressure cooker, a -- we know what else it was,
perhaps detonated with a circuit board. Tell me what all that tells you in
terms of domestic, foreign, individual, or group?


You know, I`m listening to Larry talk, and there is a degree of
sophistication. Number one, yesterday, we were talking about small IEDs.
It sounded like pipe bombs, that, you know, by and large we see people
build in the United States all the time.

When we start to get into the area of these pressure cooker bombs, well, as
you know, Chris, for example, back in 1976, there was a hijacking of a
plane flying from New York to Chicago. Croatian terrorists were on board,
hijacked the plane, got up in the air, and they said, by the way, we have a
bomb, and if you don`t believe us, look in a locker in Grand Central

The police looked, found the pressure cooker bomb. When they were trying
to render it safe, the device went off. Two months ago in India, similar
type of pressure cooker bombs were used to kill 17 and wound 120. The
failed Times Square bombing, the car bomb in New York City, again, there
was a pressure cooker device.

What do these have in common? Each have a foreign aspect, not domestic,
but a foreign type of aspect to it. So when we have to start erring on one
side, domestic or international, I guess the hybrid of those two, Chris, is
somebody in the States who, like Major Nidal Hasan at Fort Hood, receives
their inspiration from the Internet, from some, perhaps, Islamic radical --
radicalized individuals.

But we haven`t seen Americans build these type of devices, so we`re
starting to look internationally. The question is, as my good friend,
Larry, suggests, could it be just one lone wolf inspired by the Internet
finding the formula to build these things on Internet? Or is it somebody
who had some financial, if not some type of guidance from an international


MATTHEWS: So you`re -- you`re -- you`re leaning toward the international
possibility here,Clint?

VAN ZANDT: Yesterday, I took it off the board. Yesterday, I was lone
wolf, some Timothy McVeigh type who built little pipe bombs. When I see
these type of devices, if this is, in fact, the way they`re described, to
me it opens it up more for a potential either international or
internationally inspired type of device and bomber.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Don -- let`s go to Don Clark. He`s a special agent
with the FBI. He investigated the Achilles Lauro cruise, of course, way
back when. And in the 1990s, the World Trade Center bombing, the first

Don, thank you for joining us. Mr. Clark, give us your sense of how you
sift through the evidence that has come through with regard to the actual
device, with the BBs and the nails and the pressure cooker and also the
guidance we`re getting about what tips to look for.

DON CLARK, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, you know, what we have to is
that we have to be patient. And, clearly, Chris, we don`t live in a world
today where people want us to be patient, but you really do have to be
patient when you`ve got this, because the one thing about it is, is that
number one is, we`re going to try to find out who put this together and
identify those people step by step by step.

And that`s an investigative task that has to be done. And I know that
America wants everybody to be taken care of right now, but that can`t
happen. They`ve got to get the information there. They`ve got to
determine who these people are and get the investigation going so that they
can make the case, because keep in front of us is that at some point in
time is that the United States is going to have to take somebody to court
and they need to have the evidence or it`s going to blow out.

MATTHEWS: Let me go back to Larry on that.

It seems to me you`ve got, you know, you`re trying to get to the middle of
something and you have to go from both ends, because you have to go from
evidence gathering to once you get these possibilities figured out, you
have to go pursue that person. You can`t wait until you get all the
evidence. You got to get enough to begin, seems to me, a premise, a
notion, who you`re working for.

LARRY JOHNSON, ANALYST: Having watched these investigations over the
years, whether it was (INAUDIBLE) and, you know, Clint and I appearing back
in 1996 in the Olympic Park bombing and watching the TWA 800 investigation.
One of the biggest problems comes where you get the coordination between
the federal and state and the local law enforcement. And usually, it`s a
big, it`s a food fight, close to a fistfight. And there`s not effective

What I`ve been impressed with so far watching the interaction is this FBI
SAC up in Boston, he`s very smart and very capable.

MATTHEWS: Deslauriers.

JOHNSON: Deslauriers.

He`s working, he`s saying -- he`s punching all the right buttons. Now, if
that`s translating into the terrorist task force, because this is a major
case management. The volume of information that`s coming in is not just
intelligence, it`s evidence. It`s what Don and Clint were alluding to, to
keep track of all of this and they keep --

MATTHEWS: Who were the guys in the hazmat uniforms down -- the white or
yellow uniforms going around picking up pieces? Are they first responder
police from Boston police? Or are they FBI?

JOHNSON: Frankly, I don`t know.

CLARK: It keeps ringing.

MATTHEWS: I mean, they`re trying to figure out which way -- do you know,
Clint, who`s out on the ground doing the evidence collection right on the
street corner? Do we know who`s doing that? This is an interesting
coordination question.

VAN ZANDT: Yes, in a case like this, you normally want the same agency to
collect the evidence that processes it. You don`t want multiple agencies
to do it. You want one lab to look at it.

Now, the FBI has an evidence response team in every field office in the
country which would be supported by New York, Quantico, places like that.
So there`s a strong possibility it`s FBI evidence response to keep that
chain of evidence like Don Clark is talking about to make sure we have the
evidence when we get this guy in handcuffs that we can prosecute him

MATTHEWS: Wouldn`t you be a little scared if you were the person here --
let me bring you in, Don. Would you be a little scared from the other end
of this crime if you`re one of people who did this and we already in 24
hours figured out basically the device? We figured out the elements, the
BBs, the nails, the pressure cooker. We figured out it was detonated by a
circuit board.

We`re getting pretty close. It seems to me if I were on the other end of
this story, the bad guys, if you will, and they are, you`d be wondering,
this pursuit is pretty hot right now, pretty effective so far I think as a

CLARK: Well, very much so.

JOHNSON: This is one of the things --

MATTHEWS: Don, Don, please. Go ahead.

CLARK: Yes. I think they`re doing a great job by taking their time and
not rushing through to this. The only part of this that needs to be a rush
is to try to make sure that the citizens are taken care of and get them in
a place where they can take care of themselves and be moving on with their

But in terms of the investigation, there is a bit of a parallel there, as
you said, Chris, but the investigation cannot go too fast because we know
what will happen at the other end if it goes too fast in some court or
another and that can`t happen.

So, we just got to take our time, and we have time now to take. Yet I
don`t mean to say at all that this is a slow process and we can take
forever. No. We want to get this thing solved, but in the meantime, let`s
make sure that we`ve got the evidence so it doesn`t kick back with us.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you very much. Don Clark. Thank you, Clint Van
Zandt as always. Thank you, Larry Johnson.

Let me give you an update on the victims of this attack. As we said, three
people now have been killed and more than 180, more than we thought, were
injured yesterday.

With me now is Dr. William Mackey. He`s chief of surgery at Tufts Medical

Dr. Mackey, thank you for joining us. I was looking yesterday, the first
part of the tragedy that struck me was the number of hospitals up in the
Boston area all with so many patients now in serious problems, serious
threat to their lives. What was it like yesterday? What`s the situation
in your hospital at Tuft`s?

DR. WILLIAM MACKEY, TUFTS MEDICAL CENTER: It was extremely hectic right
from the get-go. The event occurred at about 2:50. By 3:30 or a little
bit before, we had victims rolling in.

We got about nine people from the scene within about a 10-minute period.
Eight of them had pretty serious injuries. Four of them immediately limb-
threatening injuries. They were triaged through our system quickly and
within about 30 minutes, four of them were in the operating room here.

MATTHEWS: Were they amputations, in your case?

MACKEY: No, we had no fatalities and no amputations, at least so far. We
had some very badly damaged limbs, however. All of the injuries were from
the knee to the ankle. All of the major injuries, blast injuries. And
several people with a lot of bone damage, open fractures, nerve damage,
arterial damage. And a lot of muscle damage.

So although they most likely won`t lose their limbs, there is going to be a
lot of rehabilitation, prolonged rehabilitation involved.

MATTHEWS: What about infection? I know from my brief covering of the
blast from the IEDs, this is an IED apparently, over in Afghanistan, Iraq,
the soldiers over there when they get hit with one of these blasts, it just
throws so much bad stuff, crap, if you will, into their system because it
comes from everywhere in the area.

Is infection a big challenge here for these patients?

MACKEY: Yes, absolutely. That`s one of the reasons we wanted to get in of
these patients up to the operating room as quickly as possible.

So under sterile conditions, we could wash out these wounds, remove the
foreign debris, the dirt, the grime, the street debris in the wounds, as
well as the shrapnel. And, you know, I think with washing them out,
debreating (ph) the dead tissue, removing all the debris, there`s a good
chance they can avoid serious infection. Yes, infection would be a major
risk with these patients.

MATTHEWS: Tell me about the burn victims. Was there any burns involved?
I`m not that familiar what happens with a blast. Were there burns? Or is
it all immediate wounds? Burns tend to get worse.

MACKEY: Yes, we had several burns. None of them were major burns. We had
a few people with hand burns. Probably put up their hands to protect
themselves reflexively and got some flash burns on the hands. We had some
people with burns on their backs that weren`t that severe. So I don`t
think the burns that we received are going to be really a threat to these

MATTHEWS: How about traumatic hearing loss? That kind of thing?
Blindness? Anything like that come of this?

MACKEY: No blindness. We had four patients that were initially suspected
of having ruptured eardrums from the blast. Those patients all underwent
scans last night and I think two of them ended up not having two ruptured
eardrums and the other two did. They will recover their hearing over time.

MATTHEWS: How good a shock trauma operation was it yesterday? Were you --
just watching it, I`m so impressed by what looks on television to be such a
wonderfully humane and professional response from the first responders.

How did you -- who figured out which hospitals to send which victims to?
How was that -- well, it looked to me wonderfully coordinated.

MACKEY: Well, I think you`d have to ask the directors of the Boston
Emergency Medical Services. I don`t know that there was any rhyme or
reason to who, which patients were sent to which hospitals. I think they
tried to distribute the patients relatively evenly among the major trauma
centers here in Boston.

And, you know, we`re all fairly close to the scene, so distance was not a
major issue. Tufts medical center is within a little less than a mile from
the finish line. Boston Medical Center, Mass General, Brigham and Women`s,
all of those hospitals are within, you know, a mile to a mile and a half of
the finish line. So, really not a huge difference in distance.

And I don`t think there was any triage of patients at the scene based on
severity of injury or anything else. All of those hospitals are level one
trauma centers all capable of accepting the most seriously injured

MATTHEWS: So all of your patients right now, just to finish up, are not in
critical condition, they`re in stable or better?

MACKEY: Our patients are stable, thank goodness. They seem to be
recovering. We should be able to discharge one or two of the patients
tomorrow. And a few more will be in the hospital.

But, you know, discharged from the hospital at this point is really the
start of their recovery. A lot of rehabilitation. Maybe some later
reconstructive surgery is going to be required.

MATTHEWS: Dr. Mackey, it`s great to have you on in this terrible time.
What a professional job you folks are all doing. Thank you so much for
taking the time to tell the people what`s going on.

We`ll be right back here on MSNBC.


MATTHEWS: We`re back now with "Boston Globe`s" sports columnist Dan
Shaughnessy. He describes yesterday`s horror as, quote, "One of our best
days is forever tainted. The 117-year-old Boston marathon will never be
the same. There goes another piece of our freedom and another sacred and
oh, so local institution."

Dan Shaughnessy joins me now, along with Brent O`Connor, who is feet away
from yesterday`s explosions.

Dan, thank you. Your feelings and your thoughts about what this means to
Boston, the marathon, to this country?

DAN SHAUGHNESSY, BOSTON GLOBE: Well, that day, Patriots` Day in Boston,
it`s a very unique thing. We only -- we have -- nobody goes to work.
Nobody goes to school.

The Red Sox play a game at 11:00 in the morning. It`s a Boston only event.
It`s always been sacred. And it`s always been a very inclusive event.

The people finishing that race, that`s every man at the finish line there.
They`re not elite runners. So, this hit hard and hit home.

MATTHEWS: What do you think? I know you put the crepe up there pretty
badly. My sense is next year you`ll have just as many entries, just as
much enthusiasm. There will be some sense as you cross the finish line
that there was a horror the year before.

Do you think it`s going to have a permanent mar? I know you wrote that on
a daily journalism. Do you think we`re going to have a permanent bad
aspect to something as great as the marathon?

SHAUGHNESSY: People are going to remember this. It will have an
association with the marathon. But the marathon will be, I mean, I think
the mayor said it, bigger and better than ever. A lot of people are going
to go out and run next year. There will be an air of defiance about it.
They`re not going to take away a great Boston institution.

MATTHEWS: Let`s talk about the rivalry that goes way back the Curse of the
Bambino when somebody sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees. I think he had five
20-game years there before they sold him as a pitcher. The guy was forced
to play outfield every day, the fifth day play pitcher, then go back and
play the outfield four or five days in a row.

Anyway, you dumped him, you lost him. The sense of the Yankee stadium
tonight, the Yankees, when they play the Diamondbacks, the same team they
played in the series the year after 9/11. They`re going to play "Sweet

Does that give you a little sentiment towards the Yankee crowd?

SHAUGHNESSY: It`s a nice thing for the Yanks to do. At a time like this,
you can`t get into the Boston/New York thing, you know, pointing fingers or
making insults at one another. This is a time to come together. Everybody
in Boston was way into the Yankees in 2001 after the towers fell, and I
think that`s reciprocated now.

MATTHEWS: I think you`re right.

Let me bring in Brent O`Connor, you were an eyewitness now. What`s been
going through your head and your heart ever since?

BRENT O`CONNOR, EYEWITNESS: I mean, look, it`s definitely compelling. I
feel really bad. I`ve never even experienced a Boston marathon before.
This was actually my first one.

I lived in New York for about 12 years. I moved back. And this is my
first marathon. And it`s really, really sad and really compelling.

But what I can say is, you know, Bostonians are resilient. And, you know,
we fight. We`ll come out of this.

You know, it`s just -- it`s been really tough. It brings me back to the
day of September 11th. And when I lived in New York on September 11th, it
was really, really tough.

MATTHEWS: Brent, when you woke up in the middle of the night tonight did
you remember anything special about the day? Was it the explosion itself
you remember?

O`CONNOR: No. Actually, it wasn`t. It was actually Martin Richards from
Dorchester. What really bothered me tremendously about it is, that`s what
really resonated with me. I thought about September 11th and I thought
about, oh, my gosh, how many kids have grown up without their parents?

And, you know, this little boy came here to experience 117th Boston
marathon. And he`ll never be able to run in it. I just don`t understand
how as a country we can let this happen and it`s just -- it really --
that`s what makes me really, really sad and it brings tears to my eyes. My
heart goes out to his family.

MATTHEWS: Thank you so much for that thought and that feeling, Brent.

Let me go back to Dan, the columnist. You`re so used to try to capture
your town. What is Boston? I mean, I went up to the Holy Cross. I went
up there. You did too, I think.

And you try to get Worcester. I think I know Worcester. I think I know
Boston a little bit.

What is it? I think I know San Francisco. But what`s the distinct
quality, that coziness, that cold winter, the grayness that doesn`t go away
until May, you know? From Christmas until May, there ain`t going to be any
sun so get together.

Your thoughts?

SHAUGHNESSY: I think we`re not about pretension. It`s resiliency here.
It`s about neighborhoods. It`s very tribal. It`s very old fashioned.

The fact we love traditions, we`ve had this event for 117 years. We`ll
continue to have it. We`ll be resilient through this.

MATTHEWS: I like the fact you`ve got the T.


MATTHEWS: Most people get together. You don`t have that in every city
where everybody gets on that little old fashioned -- what do you call it?
It`s not actually a subway. How do you describe the T?

SHAUGHNESSY: Trolley car. They`re trolley cars, Chris. You know that.
Trolley cars.

MATTHEWS: I`m letting you do it. I`m giving you the color aspect.

Boston, the sense of coming back over these last 30 or 40 years, I`ve
always told people about that. Tip had so much to do with that. Teddy
Kennedy. It`s a comeback city from the old days of textiles and shoes and
all that. You`ve got a whole new country up there.

SHAUGHNESSY: Absolutely. They`re not going to let this event take away
from the great event of the Boston marathon. This is always going to be
remembered, but we`ll move -- we`ll move ahead.

MATTHEWS: OK. Got to go. We got to go.

Dan Shaughnessy, thank you. Brent O`Connor.

SHAUGHNESSY: Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: We`re going to come back. We`re going to be back in an hour
with the very latest of this investigation at 7:00 Eastern. Right now, our
coverage continues with the Reverend Al Sharpton.


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