IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Thursday, April 18th, 2013

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

April 18, 2013

Guests: Tom Ridge, Don Borelli, James Cavanaugh, Tom Ridge


Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington. We`re waiting right now,
maybe five minutes, an important FBI briefing on the investigation into
Monday`s bombings at the Boston Marathon, and we`ll bring you that when it
happens. Investigators are expected to release images of two persons of
interest in the case, two men seen carrying heavy bags near the sites of
the bombings.

Meanwhile today, the president and first lady attended an interfaith
service. His message to Boston was powerful and defiant.


us, to terrorize us, to shake us from those values that Deval described,
the values that make us who we are as Americans. Well, it should be pretty
clear by now that they picked the wrong city to do it.


OBAMA: Not here in Boston!



MATTHEWS: The president also met with victims of the bomb blasts and their
families, as well as volunteers and the hospital staff at Massachusetts
General Hospital. We`re going to have more on the emotional day in Boston

But first, we`re following developments in the investigation, itself.
Authorities now tell NBC News they are focused on finding two men who were
seen on camera near the site of the bombings. One was reportedly seen
setting down a black bag and then dashing away just before the bombs went

I`m joined by former secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge, the former
assistant agent-in-charge of the FBI-NYPD Joint Terrorism Task Force Don
Borelli, and also MSNBC terrorism analyst James Cavanaugh. He`s retired
special agent-in-charge for the ATF, now an analyst for MSNBC and NBC.

Let me go to Governor Ridge. You were head of Homeland Security. We`re
looking now, and we don`t know whether it`s domestic, foreign, or perhaps
an exchange student here. We don`t know what mix it might be because they
don`t know who it is yet.

of the real challenges is there`s this need to know. The journalists need
to know. America wants to know. Bostonians want to know. And everybody
is doing their very, very best.

But as the other individuals who are sharing this podium, this conversation
with you today will tell you, you got to put together the pieces of
information, the evidence, piece by piece. It`s incremental. It`s labor-
intensive. And we`ll get there sooner or later, but it`s a very tough and
challenging investigation.

MATTHEWS: Don Borelli, why did it take all these hours and even days now
to decide to go public with pictures which they apparently have had now for
at least a day or two?

want to try to keep the element of surprise on your side. As soon as you
release photos and you say, This is the person we`re looking for, then
obviously, you`ve tipped your hand. And that person knows. It gives them
the opportunity to destroy evidence. It gives co-conspirators the
opportunity to get away.

So the police, law enforcement, always like to have the element of
surprise. So at the point that they do release the photos, that`s the
point when authorities are asking the general public to please help out
with this investigation.

MATTHEWS: Well, let me offer you, as a civilian, a counterpoint. If those
people are the people that did this crime, who laid the bombs there, did
everything deliberately, obviously, they`re facing capital one charges.
Why wouldn`t they have fled immediately to as far away -- they could be at
the Seattle border, they could be in Mexico or Canada or out of the country
by plane, anywhere in the world after four days now.

BORELLI: Certainly, they could, but we don`t know that. We don`t know who
else was involved. And I think, you know, possibly that`s a question
better asked, when they have the press conference, to the FBI.


BORELLI: I`m not privy to the inside information, so I`d rather not
speculate on why or why not they didn`t release the photos.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me go -- let me go back to the governor. It seems to
me Homeland Security -- and I`m wondering what this does if it`s foreign or
domestic. How`s it change the equation?

RIDGE: Probably not much. The only change in the equation might be how
the president and the country respond to it. The motive right now remains
to be seen. The actors remain to be seen. Whether or not they`re
domestic, it`s a grievance against the government, they`ll be treated as a
citizen, and you`ll get into the debate whether or not they`re an enemy
combatant or if it`s -- you see there`s a tie...

MATTHEWS: In terms of the...


MATTHEWS: But what about -- what did you make, Governor -- you`re a
political guy. What did you make of the president`s statement today, that
the people who did this were trying to restrict our free, open society?
How do we know that, unless he knows something about the profile of these
people? If it`s a person with a mental problem, they don`t care about free
and open societies, they`re just malevolent, you know? If it`s a domestic
person, they may have a political attitude. If it`s a foreign person, they
may well be against a free and open society.

RIDGE: Well, you know, I think the president -- I`m going to give a little
flexibility, a little liberty to...


MATTHEWS: What do you think it meant?

RIDGE: Well, I`m not sure. I think you`d have to ask the president that.
I mean, I think we`ve said all along that those who we tie into the
jihadist movement, those who are living in the medieval time, who don`t
care for the modern world -- that could very well be true. If it turns out
this is a domestic terrorist, has some major grievance against the
government, it may not exactly be precise use of the language, and the
president`s pretty good at using language -- may not have been the best use
of words.

MATTHEWS: No, it may be -- it may have been more pointed. Do you think,
Mr. Borelli, that the president would have been briefed beyond what we
know? Is it possible he did know there was a foreign involvement here, and
that would explain why he would say the people who did this were trying to
restrict a free and open society?

BORELLI: Well, absolutely, Chris. I mean, I think the obligation of the
FBI and the Joint Terrorism Task Force and everybody involved is to keep
the president informed. So certainly, he -- I suspect he was briefed.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the differences in dealing with what we`re
going to know so soon. Let me ask you what you were beginning to explain
there, and I probably got in your way there, Mr. Borelli, and that is this
question of holding back information, weighing the advantages of public
support versus the importance of keeping it secret.

What are the advantages of public support here? Because we may well be
facing that in a matter of minutes here.

BORELLI: The obvious advantage of public support is you`ve got a false --
a force multiplier now of millions of people that will see the photograph
of the individuals or individual being sought. And there`s a high
likelihood that someone will recognize that person and call in and tip off
the FBI.

And then you take that information and you put it with what they already
know and what they`re gathering through physical evidence and electronic
surveillance, whatever they`re using in addition to photography, and that
helps put the case together.

MATTHEWS: So it`s an old-fashioned wanted poster, at that point.

BORELLI: Essentially, it becomes like a wanted poster, America`s most
wanted type of situation.

MATTHEWS: Right. Let me go to James Cavanaugh. He was with ATF. He`s
now with us as an NBC analyst. Mr. Cavanaugh, it`s great to have you back
-- although I hate having you back because once again, it`s because
something bad has happened and here we go again.

My question about this -- it`s again the question that we in the media
always want something when we can get it. That`s the job we have. The job
on the inside may well be to weigh the putting out versus the holding back.
Your sense of the choice they`ve been making now -- it could be they`ve
been making this choice since maybe Tuesday.

Chris. You`re exactly right. This is what commanders wrestle with all the
time in these cases. I`ve done it many times. From Eric Rudolph, to the
sniper, to church fires, to major bombing incidents, you always wrestle
with these questions. They`ve done a great job with it.

Look, we`re 72 hours from this horrific event. They`ve got the bomb scenes
90 percent done. They know what the components are. And they`re going to
probably release this afternoon photographs of people they`re extremely
interested in.

They`re doing that because they don`t have a way to otherwise identify
those people. So if they do, before the sun sets on Boston Harbor, they
will have the names of the people in those photographs. Now, if that is
the bombers, we`ll see. But they will have those names fast because
relatives, neighbors, friends, co-workers, associates, will call it in.

MATTHEWS: Governor, the question now, we have on the record now -- thanks
to Pete Williams, we have the fact of two men seen carrying heavy bags near
the site of the bombings. Now, if this comes into vision now, pictures
that we`ve been looking at on the Internet of people actually putting bombs
down and leaving, they`re more to the civilian eye than just people of

They look like they`re the guys. That`s the way people are going to look
at it. So what are the civil liberties aspect to this? If you put a
picture out of a person saying, pretty much, We think these people are
involved, involved somehow, in fact, perpetrators, probably, and somebody
shoots them or somebody chases them down or something can happen --
something -- an accident happens, for example, the government is taking
responsibility for this, once they put those pictures out.

RIDGE: Well, I think they are, but I think they have to. I mean, at the
end of the day, as your other guests have indicated, there comes a point in
time where, obviously, they could not identify these individuals with all
the other potential pieces of information they had.

So do they eat lunch at a particular place? Have they rented an apartment?
Do they socialize with a particular group? Frankly, it says to me they did
everything they could to identify them. They couldn`t. And now we need

MATTHEWS: Probably, they arrived from somewhere else for the occasion and
have left.

RIDGE: Well, that`s a possibility. But there have been some terrorists
who`ve hung around the neighborhood, overseas and elsewhere, and there is
that possibility that somebody in the community can recognize and identify
them and give them a specific name. Of course, the other problem is, 72
hours has elapsed. They may have -- they may have gone...

MATTHEWS: Mr. Borelli, once you have a visual identification -- not
identification, but you have visual images of two people or a person, can
you then match them up electronically, through digital analysis, with known
faces? Again, going back to classic, old-fashioned techniques, mugshots.
Do you have a database at the FBI you can run these through and see which

BORELLI: Chris, there`s a lot of technological advances from the old days
of, you know, the mugshot photo book. So certainly, there`s facial
recognition software. All of those techniques, you know, those advanced
techniques will be used in this case. And I agree with the other, you
know, comments made that it`s not going to take long for somebody to
recognize these people.

RIDGE: Yes, there`s an interesting database (INAUDIBLE) Chris, you know,
ever since 2003, we`ve been taking photographs and digital fingerprints of
people been coming into this country under U.S. visit (ph).


RIDGE: I think there are over 80 million digital photographs there. I
just don`t know. Maybe one of your guests will tell whether or not the FBI

MATTHEWS: How many, 800 million?

RIDGE: No, 80 million. I mean, everybody that`s come across an airport
internationally, we now have fingerprints and a digital photograph. So
it`ll be interesting if that`s part of the (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS: Everyone who has gone internationally...

RIDGE: No, everybody who`s come into the United States from overseas...

MATTHEWS: As a visitor.

RIDGE: As a visitor...


RIDGE: ... under U.S. visit, we got their digital photograph and we have
their -- a couple (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS: Well, wouldn`t they have already matched that up if they have
these visual images?

FINEMAN: I don`t know.

MATTHEWS: Yes, we`re going to find...

RIDGE: Yes, we`ll find out.

MATTHEWS: This is fascinating stuff. And I guess the question is, do you
have -- let me go back to Mr. Borelli again, the FBI experience there. Do
you -- when this kind of thing goes on, when we have the modern example on
TV now, which will reach millions of people overnight, and in their
computers by dawn, half the country will have seen this, I expect or more.

Do you get a lot of false positives of people saying, yes -- maybe they`ll
call and they don`t like the guy that -- and they say, I -- he looks like
the guy I don`t like, and maybe we`ll call his name and cause him some

Do you get mischief like that? Do you get people that are just a little
overenthused about identifications that come in?

BORELLI: You get both of the above. You get people that want to help and
they`re earnest in their call-in and trying to do their best. You also get
pranksters. You get everything. And again, I`m sure this has gone into
the calculus of, you know, when to release these photos and when not
because, you know, it can be a distraction chasing down false leads.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Cavanaugh, your thoughts about this -- again, the whole
question of what are we going to get if we show these images tonight, the
government does, with the hope that the public will help in perhaps a
matter of hours in at least recognizing the people and saying, I don`t know
where they are, but I saw them at the drug store yesterday day. That guy
came in to buy a Coke, or, I saw this guy somewhere.

How long do you expect this will take to succeed?

CAVANAUGH: Chris, we did it in the D.C. sniper. We ordered the warrant
information -- we had a federal firearms warrant on Muhammad released at
4:00 PM. I said if we don`t catch him with our police on a BOLO until 8:00
o`clock in the morning, then Chief Moose and the SACs from FBI and ATF will
go out and announce it. So we`ll give the in-house agents 12, 15 hours to
find them.

If they don`t, we`re going to release it. So it will probably leak to the
media. That was 4:00 PM in the sniper command post. By 9:00 PM, the tag
was on the media, and witness spotted them at a rest stop.

So I think they`re going to get quick calls. There will be false
positives. That`s normal in a big case. Everything that`s happening here
is normal in a big case. All the agencies are doing the right thing, from
the commissioner of police, Ed Davis, who`s an icon in the police chief
world, to every agency.

This is the right thing to do. They`ve made a calculation, and now they`re
going to take the logical steps. The key here, though, is 72 hours -- we
had the bombing. One of the main things happened yesterday, and that was
the media kerfuffle that there was an arrest made and people were

MATTHEWS: I understand.

CAVANAUGH: The bomber knows that. The bomber knows that. And so
yesterday, the bomber knew the investigators had his picture. So there`s
some behavior yesterday from the bombers. We don`t know what that is.
They`re not pegging off this today. They reacted and acted yesterday. So
we`re a little bit behind the bomber now.

MATTHEWS: Well, let me talk above and beyond in the game of just through
the evolution of technology. I read on the front page of "The Washington
Post" today -- it was the left sidebar -- and it said, basically, that we
will have at the end of this investigation, fairly soon, every second of
the time of the marathon, four or five hours -- every second of that will
be covered by cell phone or some sort of surveillance camerawork, video.

And every quarter inch or half inch will be covered, as well, that they
will be able to put together a kaleidoscopic picture, in fact, a complete
puzzle solution to time and space for that location and for that period of

It blows your mind. I mean, these people that did this, they didn`t know
what they were up against. So they weren`t thinking about the potential of
the good guys to find out what happened. Your thoughts first, Jim.

CAVANAUGH: Well, you`re exactly right. It`s like, behind you, in these
big cases, there`s a silent whirring fan that starts and that`s State
Department agents across the globe, CIA stations, Homeland Security, where
Governor Ridge was in charge of -- they all start whirring around, and
they`re all supporting you with their databases and their information.

In the command post, we have computerized lead tracking. ATF and FBI
developed those systems in the early `90s, and we put them to work with
great force. I mean, we track every lead, computerized lead tracking, so
we can capture that information and control the leads.

And this digital age that`s come upon us -- Chris, when I started as a
policeman, we had rotary phones. I mean, you`re talking about wanted
posters. We had to go hand them out.


CAVANAUGH: So now -- this digital phone technology, this -- surveillance
cameras -- remember the London train bombings, the CCT cameras in greater
London? The Metropolitan Police were able to capture the suicide bombers
on the video. You`re going to see digital America, digital world in action
overnight. It`s going to be amazing. We`re going to have developments in
the next few days here. I hope they`re positive.

MATTHEWS: It`s unbelievable.

CAVANAUGH: Yes, it`s unbelievable.

MATTHEWS: It`s also good on the good guys side. Mr. Borelli, the same
question to you about this potential. I know as recently as the 1980s, we
-- syndicated columnists were using Western Union.


MATTHEWS: You tell that to a kid today, they think you were riding around
on a horse. But the fact is, Western Union was still the way you filed a
column in the `80s.

Let me ask you about this potential to cover every second and every inch of
the crime scene.

BORELLI: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I live in New York City. I don`t think
I could walk three blocks without, you know, being, you know, followed by a
different camera, you know, every 10 feet. And then you take that, and if
I`m on my cell phone, you`ve got all the cell phone traffic that`s going up
to the various towers it`s pinging on.

So you get layers. You`re going to have visual. You`re going to have tech
-- you know, the cell phone technology. So you take and now you add to
that with the marathon, all of the people that are out taking pictures with
their iPhones, with -- you know, and the media cameras. I mean, I agree
with the assessment that there`s not going to be much uncovered.

And then the other thing, you know, for example, license plate readers. If
they`re able to find out, you know, where this person went and they got in
a car, you know, now you`ve got the license plate. So I mean, there`s this
-- the technology is amazing. It can be very helpful.

MATTHEWS: And don`t speed on Connecticut Avenue in Washington. We got our
little system there. If you go over the speed limit, you`re on camera.

Anyway, it seems to me that the buckaroos out there that say, I don`t want
a national ID card, it`s going to invade my privacy, Governor, are crazy.
The government is so potentially beyond them in recognizing their
movements, their identity.

I remember when Mohammed Atta was killed, as part of one of the killers of
9/11, if you will. We were looking at him going to an ATM. We were
looking at him in a CVS store, right? We had his day figured out. It took
a while, but I guess now -- Mr. Borelli, today Mohammed Atta I assume would
be under closer surveillance, even if he were dead at this point because
you`d have his movements much more quickly based upon what we`re talking
about, how fast this is moving, this technology.

BORELLI: Yes. Exactly. I mean, technology has just really enhanced law
enforcement. But the other thing to keep in mind, Chris, is, you know,
technology -- the bad guys have access to technology, too. So there`s --

MATTHEWS: What have they got?

BORELLI: Well, I mean, there`s -- they`re sending encrypted messages and
things like that. And some of these are so complicated that the government
has a hard time, you know, cracking the code. So you know, it can --
technology can work against us, as well.

MATTHEWS: Yes. There`s some discussion, and I don`t know if it`s true, so
put it there, Governor, and everybody, that one of these guys was walking
around talking on his cell phone while he was carrying his bags around. So
I think they might be a bit behind the curve here, luckily.

RIDGE: Yes. Hopefully.

MATTHEWS: Because that`s more guidance to where they were. And anyway, I
do think we`re going to have a heck of a story. It`s worth watching,
people watching right now, sticking around for a few moments because
although they`re delaying this to get this right, this is probably the most
important FBI briefing in history, for all I know, since the Lindbergh

And they`re coming out -- and here we have -- Mike Barnicle is here. Mike,
where are you, Mike? You`re at Boston. Give us a bit, if you can, while
we have a moment with you...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One minute warning. One minute warning.

MATTHEWS: Oh, one-minute warning. Michael, where are you right now?


MATTHEWS: So you`re watching this as well as I`m watching it. Any sense
of what you`re hearing up there?

BARNICLE: No. I am eagerly awaiting, as you are, as many Americans are,
to see what information we`re going to find out from the FBI right about

MATTHEWS: OK. We just got the word through my ear that there is ricin in
those letters that went -- in Washington, to the various public officials.
So we know that there`s a violent intent there, which follows what you and
I were talking, Governor, the other day, how this pattern of villainy, if
you will.


MATTHEWS: You have a bombing. You have 9/11. And then later you have the
anthrax in those cases. And now you have the ricin.

RIDGE: Deja vu. Back there again. I mean, it was -- I remember vividly,
as you do, as all America does, you had the 9/11 bombings. You had the
anthrax, and everybody...

MATTHEWS: To Tom -- Tom Daschle and to Tom -- an to Tom Brokaw.

RIDGE: You had Pat Leahy, Brokaw...


RIDGE: ... Tom Daschle. And everyone, for the first couple months were on
-- were on...

MATTHEWS: And we never found any theory or purpose to the whole thing, did

RIDGE: We did not. And we never found any connection for the time being
and for the past 10 years, no one`s ever been able to discover any
connection between the 9/11 horror and the anthrax. I think they`re two
separate -- two separate incidents.

MATTHEWS: Yes. And Mr. Cavanaugh, I just think, Jim, that this is part of
the world, the negative part of our world where people who want to hook in
and get into this story, here`s your chance. There`s a national turmoil.
Join it in some way. Your thoughts.

CAVANAUGH: Well, that`s exactly right. And you know, Chris, when you were
talking the digital world and the video, a lot of this video is in the
hands of citizens. That`s a sweeping change in our lifetimes. It`s not in
the hands of the government, it`s in the hands of every marathon runner.
And they then submit it when they`re requested in the emergency. That`s
really powerful, to have citizens holding their own pictures and putting
them in there digitally. I think it`s going to be the wave of the future.


MATTHEWS: You know, if you`re on TV or a political figure (INAUDIBLE) you
go in public, everybody has a camera because everybody has a cell phone.

RIDGE: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: And everybody has a -- if they want a picture, they -- here we
go. This is the big story. Here`s this special agent-in-charge.

My name is Richard Deslauriers.

It`s not in the hands of the government. It`s in the hands of every
marathon runner.

And they then submit it when they`re requested in the -- in the emergency.
That`s really powerful to have citizens holding their own pictures and
putting them in there digitally.


CAVANAUGH: I think it`s going to be the wave of the future.


MATTHEWS: You know, if you`re on TV -- if you`re on TV or you`re a
political figure or something, you go in public, everybody has a camera,
because everybody has a cell phone.


MATTHEWS: And everybody has a -- they want a picture.

And they -- here we go. This is the big story. Here`s the special agent
in charge.

is Richard DesLauriers. I`m the special agent in charge of the FBI`s
Boston division.

Since Monday`s bombings, the FBI and our law enforcement partners have been
working around the clock and are fully committed to investigating the
matter, this matter to bring those responsible to justice. Our collective
law enforcement team has pursued thousands of leads and tips.

As I said two days ago, we are working methodically and with a sense of
urgency to identify those responsible for the bombings. Within the last
day or so through our care -- through that careful process, we initially
developed a single person of interest. Not knowing if the individual was
acting alone or in concert with others, we obviously worked with extreme
purpose to make that determination.

The entire force of the federal government, the FBI in Boston, around the
world, as well as our partners in the Boston Police, ATF, Massachusetts
State Police, and more than 30 agencies of the Boston joint terrorism task
force have set about to ensure that all responsible for the bombings will
be brought to justice.

More importantly, it was done to ensure the future safety of the city of
Boston, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and the country. Indeed,
through that process, the FBI developed a second suspect. Today, we are
enlisting the public`s help to identify the two suspects.

After a very detailed analysis of photo, video and other evidence, we are
releasing photos of these two suspects. They are identified as suspect one
and suspect two. They appear to be associated. Suspect one is wearing a
dark hat. Suspect two is wearing a white hat.

Suspect two set down a backpack at the site of the second explosion just in
front of the Forum restaurant.

We strongly encourage those who were at the Forum restaurant who have not
contacted us yet to do so. As you can see from one of the -- from one of
the images, suspects one and two appear to be walking together through the
marathon crowd on Boylston Street in the direction of the finish line.

That image was captured as they walked on Boylston in the vicinity of the
intersection with Gloucester Street. As you can see, the quality of the
photos is quite good, but we will continue to work on developing additional
images to improve their identification value.

Further, on, we have photos of the suspects. The photos and videos
are posted for the public and media to use, review and publicize.

For clarity, these images should be the only ones -- and I emphasize the
only ones -- that the public should view to assist us. Other photos should
not be deemed credible and unnecessarily -- and they unnecessarily divert
the public`s attention in the wrong direction and create undue work for
vital law enforcement resources.

For more than 100 years, the FBI has relied upon the public to be its eyes
and ears. With the media`s help, in an instant, these images will be
delivered directly into the hands of millions around the world.

We know the public will play a critical role in identifying and locating
these individuals. Somebody out there knows these individuals as friends,
neighbors, co-workers, or family members of the suspects.

Though it may be difficult, the nation is counting on those with
information to come forward and provide it to us. No bit of information,
no matter how small or seemingly inconsequential, is too small for us to
see. Each piece moves us forward towards justice.

It is extremely important to contact us with any information regarding the
identities of suspect one, suspect two, and their location. We consider
them to be armed and extremely dangerous. No one should approach them. No
one should attempt to apprehend them, except law enforcement.

Let me iterate that -- reiterate that caution. Do not take any action on
your own. If you see these men, contact law enforcement. If you know
anything about the bombings or the men pictured here, please call the
telephone listed on the photo arrays. That`s 1-800-CALL-FBI. Again,
that`s 1-800-225-5324. All calls will be kept confidential.

We have also established a Web site for tips that directly relates to the
bombing. Please contact -- please contact us at Again, that Web site is

The photos can be viewed on our Web site,

It is important to emphasize the images from Monday are indelible and the
horror of that day will remain with us forever. This further underscores
our obligation to investigate this crime judiciously in order to bring
these -- those responsible to justice.

The victims and the survivors deserve nothing more -- nothing less, excuse

As to Monday`s victims, the FBI`s committed to ensuring that victims
receive the rights they are entitled to and the assistance they need to
cope with the crime. Treating victims with respect and providing them with
assistance benefits -- benefits and help and assistance will better our

Our resources include an Office of Victim Assistance at FBI headquarters
and victim specialists nationwide. These highly trained professionals can
assist victims and coordinate with other agencies to provide victims with
the support, information and resources necessary to effectively meet their

Our victim specialist team continues to work around the clock to bring
assistance to bring assistance to the victims of this heinous act.

Identifying and locating those responsible is now our highest priority. No
other details of the investigation will be released at this time because
this is our focus now. It continues to be an ongoing, active

Review these photographs and contact us at 1-800-CALL-FBI or immediately.

Thank you very much.



QUESTION: Yes, I was wondering if there -- should be arrests, what
potential charges do you (OFF-MIKE)

DESLAURIERS: I wouldn`t want to comment on that, Karen, right now. I
would allow U.S. Attorney Ortiz to comment on that aspect.


QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) We have got photographs. (OFF-MIKE)

DESLAURIERS: Next question, please? Next question, please?




QUESTION: Are both suspects -- are both suspects seen planting these
devices at the finish line of the Boston Marathon (OFF-MIKE)


QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) What time? About what time?

DESLAURIERS: The only one who was observed planting what we believe to be
the device is suspect number two with the white cap.


QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) What time did they put those devices down? (OFF-

DESLAURIERS: I don`t have the precise time in front of me. It was shortly
before the bomb blast went off, within minutes.


QUESTION: Mr. DesLauriers, are these the sole people of interest to the
FBI at this point in your investigation?

DESLAURIERS: At this time, these are people of interest to the FBI.





QUESTION: Do you have any information on what they did after the
explosions? Any indication they were around watching? Or do you have any
video of them walking away?

DESLAURIERS: Suspect number two with the white cap on proceeded west on
Boylston Street. And that`s all we know right now.


QUESTION: Sir, can you address the (OFF-MIKE) in newspapers all over the
country, including "The New York Post," that identified two men as
potential suspects. I`m just wondering what it does to your investigation
when things like this get out and these guys are (OFF-MIKE)

DESLAURIERS: I think I addressed that. Thank you. And I think I
addressed that question in my statement by saying the only official photos
that should be officially relied upon in this investigation are those you
see before you today.


QUESTION: If they`re armed and dangerous...


QUESTION: ... do you stand by your earlier statement that there is no
additional danger to the public?

DESLAURIERS: I do stand by that statement right now. There is no
additional imminent danger that we are aware of right now.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, the photos are available at

MATTHEWS: There we go. There we go.

Don Borelli, you`re a former FBI agent. Let me ask you about this whole
question. We now know two suspects. We know one with the white hat was
the one seen planting a backpack near the bombing. We know that person
proceeded west on Boylston Street. We know there`s another suspect.

They`re the only people of interest in the case. What else do we know?
They look like two young men in their 20s, I would say, based upon their
stride. What else do we know?

BORELLI: Well, you`re seeing these pictures as well as I am.

I mean, I`m sure that there`s other information that the FBI has that`s not
released to the press conference. But obviously the big key that they
don`t have is a name, a date of birth, a Social Security number, a positive
I.D., you know, is what we call it in law enforcement. You want a positive

So that`s the information they`re looking to obtain with the help of the

MATTHEWS: Why didn`t they blow up the pictures of their faces and give us
a closer look at them? They`re both wearing baseball caps, which helped to
disguise themselves. Why didn`t they go -- go in tight, give us a blowup
picture for our -- for use in identifying them?

It`s hard to identify -- unless you know them, of course, but if you know
them, you know things about them,the way they walk, who they are, various
matters of their clothing, et cetera. But if you don`t know them, it seems
like you would be better off looking at a close-up of their face. Why
didn`t they do that, do you think?

BORELLI: Can`t really tell for sure, although the special agent in charge,
Rick DesLauriers, did mention that they`re working to improve the quality
of the photographs.

So, perhaps later on today, they will have some improved imagery that will
be available on -- online on So, I know that, you know, obviously
they want -- now that they have -- they have essentially said, look, we
want your help, and they have -- they have opened this up to the public, I
expect that they`re going to give themselves the best opportunity to
succeed, and that is to give the best photographs available.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Cavanaugh, this is a bombing case. Now we have two people,
they call them suspects, so we can, two suspects in a bombing case, one of
them dropping the package, the backpack which they believe contained one of
the bombs.

And we have pictures of them doing it, certainly, the one with the white
hat, the second suspect, we will call him. Boy, this is a lot of

CAVANAUGH: Chris, you`re exactly right.

You know, I worked bombing cases for 40 years, and the special agent in
charge just gave a lot of information here. Look what he told us. These
two guys were seen prior to this video communicating with each other. So,
you know, they suspect they knew each other. They were walking side by
side, or they were talking.

They then come out in this feed. The second guy with his backpack is
carrying a device that looks just about exactly like the device that was
placed next to the trash can that was shown on nightly news last night.

MATTHEWS: In front of the Forum restaurant, yes, right there.

CAVANAUGH: Yes. And it kind of looks just like it.

I mean, it`s covered by some kind of white towel or white garbage bag. And
he likely, the second guy, just dropped that thing over the fence that you
see right there on the loop. Now, what the agent in charge also said is
important, he said, we`re not showing a video of -- or we don`t have a
video -- I`m not sure which one he said -- of the first guy placing the
bomb. That may be true.

But, as a bomb investigator, when I look at that video, I can tell you
beyond any shadow of a doubt, I can take that backpack from a post-blast
investigation that`s been done in the last three days and I can tell you
that backpack was put at the scene of the bomb. It`s very unique-looking.
It has white markings on it. You can see the marks on it, the size of it.

ATF agents, FBI agents, the Boston bomb squad, they put that together,
state police, no problem. That backpack is put together, enough of the
remnants of it to identify it that it looks just like the backpack that
that number one man is walking on. So, whether or not they have a video of
it, that`s why they`re sure of it. That`s why they`re sure these are the
guys they want to talk to.

MATTHEWS: Yes. He`s carrying it rather lightly. They`re not conspicuous
from what we`re watching here. We talked about the weight of the bomb,
what it would have to be with all the nails and the shrapnel and the BBs
and the powder itself, and the size of the pressure cooker, the six-liter
pressure cooker. And yet they`re carrying it along rather lightly.

I wouldn`t think people would recognize they`re up to any trouble, would


If these are the bombers, I mean, you`re looking at bombers at work. If
these are the bombers, you`re looking at them at work. So, it`s
fascinating really. I think it`s a great break in the case. It`s going to
be great for safety.


I`m looking now, gentlemen, let me -- Mr. Borelli, I don`t know if you have
access to it, but I`m looking at prints now in color. And I got to tell
you, let me -- Governor, you`re here with me. This guy in the white cap,
this is one the accused or seen dropping the package there, the backpack
where you said right in front of the Forum restaurant there between the
storm fence and the curb itself.

He now -- in this other close-up, he is quite identifiable. Look at him

RIDGE: That`s a good profile.

MATTHEWS: Without giving him any description, let the police do that. I
think, if you knew this fellow, you would know him and you would spot him.

And if you`re watching television right now, you will know this guy when
you see these pictures online. They`re all online in color. By the way,
he`s wearing the baseball hat backwards, the way young people tend to do.
He`s carrying the backpack. Now, he does seem to be carrying it with some
weight on it right now. It sounds like he`s toting it.

Black pants, black jacket, white cap, a hood, which is not over his head.
It`s back -- in fact, you know, we were hearing all this stuff, Governor
and gentlemen, Don and Jim, we were hearing this kind of description,
baseball cap with hood two, days ago.

So, whatever was getting out, the smoke led to the fire here. We know that
some people had some of this evidence -- evidence consistent with the FBI
evidence they`re presenting to us right now.

Let me -- Mr. Borelli, again, Don, tell me why do you think we were getting
pieces of this picture earlier and then it was pushed back on by the bureau
at that point when this came out the other day? And there`s some acute
accusations of bad reporting. Apparently so, but we`re also getting
evidence now that it was consistent, at least, in its incompleteness with
what`s coming out now.

BORELLI: Yes, I`m not entirely sure about that, Chris.

I -- like you, I heard media reports that they were looking for somebody
with a baseball hat turned backward and carrying the backpack and so forth,
pretty much...

MATTHEWS: With the hood as well.

BORELLI: With the hood.

MATTHEWS: With the hood.

BORELLI: Exactly what...

MATTHEWS: The sweatshirt hood.

BORELLI: With what we have seen today. So, in essence, at that point, you
know, they did tip their hand to a certain extent, but, you know, was that
done -- I can`t say if that was done intentionally or what, because I`m not
privy to the information that the FBI gave to the media and when they gave

Obviously, yesterday turned into a bit of a circus with, you know, the
announcement of arrests and then retractment -- retractment and so forth.
So, it`s hard for me to answer that question not knowing what was released
officially by the FBI and when.

MATTHEWS: Also, gentlemen, we`re seeing in this picture I`m looking at --
I can hold it up, but I don`t know if you have seen it. You can actually
see the young man with the white baseball cap and the hood behind him, and
the sweatshirt hood, on the phone.

So you see a lot here. And now they know he was on the phone right there.
He`s got his hand up to his ear. So he`s talking to somebody while he`s
doing this -- this.

Jim Cavanaugh, your thoughts about this. I mean, I don`t want to judge.
I`m not an expert. I have a lot of things going through my head about what
may -- might be going on here. But is there any way to know whether this
is serious business, organized al-Qaeda type, international, domestic, or
renegade group? What are we calling them, rogue groups?

There`s no -- I don`t know how -- I don`t know how to read the language
here of what we`re looking at.

CAVANAUGH: Yes, violent anti-government groups.

Well, we don`t know from that, and we don`t know if that`s a real phone
call or if it`s a fake phone call, like he feels somebody is watching him
when he`s about to place the device, so he kind of acts like he`s making a
call and then, you know, I`m putting down my bag while I make the call.


CAVANAUGH: So, it could be that as well.

But if it is a call, I guarantee you that law enforcement will sweep that
cell tower to the best of their ability and do whatever they -- whatever
they got to do.

Imagine, Chris -- I mean, put yourself -- if I was commanding this case,
here`s where my mind wants to be. These guys are watching it. These guys
are watching it. Unless they`re -- unless they`re in the woods hiding, or
they have already -- if they`re international citizens, they have already
left the country, they`re watching this on all the media.

They`re watching themselves be identified. So this is when you got to
think about what they`re doing and in their mind, what are they -- how are
they going to react to this? So it`s very important what transpires in the
hours overnight.

MATTHEWS: Do they get any advantage?

I want to get back to Mr. Borelli.

Do they get any advantage about turning -- with turning themselves in at
this point? At this point, when people, bad or good, and they`re bad
obviously if they`re the people that did this, they know they did it. They
know they`re being pursued. They know that it`s a hot pursuit. They know
that all the technology is now working against them.

Is there any advantage in them turning themselves in at this point? Maybe
I`m just an idealist. But I think it would be better for everybody if they

BORELLI: Well, I agree with you, Chris. I mean, I think that that would
be the ideal situation, but highly unlikely at this point.

You know, that`s probably a question that would be addressed by the U.S.
attorney`s office. I think -- I think certainly it`s safe to say that they
-- that would be taken as a consideration if they turned themselves in.
But these guys are looking at some very serious charges. They used a
weapon of mass destruction that killed American citizens, so it...


MATTHEWS: No, I assume they`re facing life -- life, at least, up in
Massachusetts, at least life. I think there`s -- I don`t think they have
capital punishment up there. They wouldn`t. But they have got life


MATTHEWS: This is a federal crime.

BORELLI: It`s a federal...

MATTHEWS: So, what -- wait a minute. What does -- how does this fit under
the federal statutes for terrorism? Is one of those that now is included
if it...


BORELLI: Yes. This...

MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

BORELLI: Chris, this could be considered WMD under Title 18. I think
it`s, if my memory serves me right, 2332-A, the use of a destructive

And -- so whether these guys are affiliated with any kind of a foreign
power or a domestic group or if they`re just two guys that acted alone,
they still are looking at charges under the federal terrorism statute. And
I believe, you know, it could carry the -- the death penalty, potentially.
I would have to go back to the code books.

MATTHEWS: Well, we have the governor here.

Was it -- does that cover...

RIDGE: Yes, it sure does. I think...


MATTHEWS: These guys are facing capital punishment?




CAVANAUGH: Well, the federal crime of terrorism, Chris, was passed after
the Murrah bombing in the `90s, the federal crime of terrorism.

Somebody who uses a bomb to coerce a civilian population clearly would fit.
If they`re international citizens...

MATTHEWS: Well, there you go.

CAVANAUGH: ... terrorism transcending national boundaries, so there`s
plenty of statutes. There`s a whole bunch of ATF bombing statutes.

You can`t even make a bomb in the U.S. without it being a federal crime.
So just making a bomb, having a bomb, components to the bomb, there`s
plenty of laws to cover it. So the trick here is really catching them.
It`s -- all that stuff, the U.S. attorneys can handle for us.

MATTHEWS: And you don`t expect they would turn themselves in then at this

CAVANAUGH: You know, I`m like you. I always think, if you really believe
in whatever crazy cause you have, if you really believe in it, why not
surrender and try to get your platform like, you know, Khalid Sheikh
Mohammed, all his talking in the court, you know?


CAVANAUGH: Well, go get your platform.

But they won`t do it. I think they will go into fight or flight. They
will either barricade or they will flee. So, we will see that transpire.


Let me go to -- let me go to Mike Barnicle with your thoughts about this.

Mike, this is -- boy, is this moving fast. This is a fast-moving


In this interconnected digital age that we live in, are they so unaware
that they didn`t realize that they would be filmed multiple times? And, as
to the site of the drop, the two devices, the drop, was it the first time
they had been at that site?

Had they not been there before to check it out to see where they would drop
things, where they would put the two devices? Was this their first time?
Because the -- the multiple shots we have of them -- and I assume that the
FBI probably has more, and, of course, they have skimmed materials from the
Lord & Taylor department store across the street. In terms of profiling
these two people, these two individuals, this is sort of a fascinating
trail that they are leading us on here.

MATTHEWS: What do you mean? By the fact we`ve got all these various shots
of them, that they`re walking around?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Are they that -- were they that unaware of the
sophistication of society around them? Multiple cameras in every city.
Boston being no different.

MATTHEWS: I`m with them in that sense because I had no idea that Lord &
Taylor was this aggressive in its photography. I mean, I thought they were
watching behind the counter when the clerk wasn`t there, the floor walker.
But they`re taking pictures across the street. Who knows how many blocks
Lord & Taylor covers.

But it is -- they have a high-level shot. By the way, people tell me
technically this is a very good shot they got. It`s from off the roof of
Lord & Taylor from across the street.


MATTHEWS: That`s a long way to follow a shoplifter if that`s what the
purpose of the surveillance was. You`re right, though. The cops were
ahead of the bad guys there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this their first time at the site? That`s sort of
an interesting question.

MATTHEWS: I was wondering that -- go ahead. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris, Mike makes a good point. I think, you know,
he`s kind we when he says unaware or dumb of the digital technology.
That`s one possibility. They`re too clever by half.

The second one, though, they`re far from far away. That could be
domestically. They`re from far away. That could domestically, from far
away. They live in the mountains somewhere in the West.

Or they`re international citizens who just came in for this purpose. And
the only thing they came in for, they had money and knowledge. That`s all
they need to perpetrate these two bombs. Money and knowledge, because they
could acquire the materials easily.

And then they feel safe because they`re going back to Western Europe, for
example, if they`re radicals or maybe they`re from the far west of the U.S.

So, they may have security because they`re not from New England. That`s a
possibility. Or so just unaware, as Mike says, so just, you know, totally
unaware they`re going to be filmed by everybody that they did it.

But nobody in the whole world can get away. Nobody can get away. You
can`t get away hiding in the in the mountains of Tora Bora, Yemen,
Pakistan. Eric Rudolph in the mountains in Appalachia.

We`re going to find you. We`re going to find you.

MATTHEWS: The one thing about the justice of the Lord when he created us
all, we`re all good at one or two things. I assume these are laboratory
geeks that probably put together the bomb and that`s their strength. Their
strength isn`t international geography or setting up a barricade situation.

They`re not gun fighters. They`re probably people who figured out how to
bomb. That`s one thing they know how to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s an interesting dialogue we`ve been having. I
appreciate listening in on the conversation, Chris. The commercial
surveillance tapes and gentlemen in law enforcement know better than I,
oftentimes they`ll keep them for X number of days or weeks. It would be
interesting to find out whether or not had they done like previous
terrorists have done, did they survey the place the day before or two days
before? Everybody knew where the finish line was.

So --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- I suspect they have gone back to see if one or two
of these lookalikes were in the area a couple days previously.

MATTHEWS: What they did, what Mike was suggesting, if it was their first
trip to this, maybe they looked for a crowd. I`ve been watching this for
three or four days now, that bunch of people there, right behind that storm
fence. I thought if you`re just a killer looking to kill people, you go
there and put the bomb where there are a lot of people bunched together
from front of the forum.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they flew in a couple weeks ago and thought they
could make a quick out, their photograph might be on U.S. bases. So, I
suspect that the FBI and everybody`s else taken that the advantage of the
digital technology and compared them.

MATTHEWS: Let`s do good things for America. Mr. Borelli, Don Borelli,
you`re with the FBI. Where do people go to call in an ID if they`ve got

DON BORELLI, SOUFAN GROUP: They go to I believe there`s an 800
number. I guess I`m just seeing it on my screen now. Call the FBI.

MATTHEWS: Here it is right now, on the bottom of our screen in red. White
on red, the 800 number, CALL-FBI. That`s pretty easy to remember, 800-

BORELLI: Yes. Or your local FBI office will take the information as well,
whatever state you live in.

MATTHEWS: I`ll tell you. Again, I`ll go back to that picture of the
fellow. I`m sure by the time we come back on at 7:00, we`re going to have
close-ups of these fellows. I shouldn`t call them fellows. That`s too

But these two young guys who, one clearly, according to FBI agent
Deslauriers who said that they have evidence of the guy -- I don`t think we
have seen the picture of them doing it -- but they say they have evidence
of the young person with the white hat and carrying the backpack putting it
down at the site there in front of the Forum restaurant, which we have been
watching since we got the first shot of that bag.

I guess it was from local stations or from Lord & Taylor Monday night. So,
we`ve been looking at that spot now since Monday night. Here it is
Thursday night. We`re getting the pictures of according to the FBI the
person who put it there. So we`re getting a lot of information.

I want to go back to Mr. Cavanaugh. We`re going to be taking a break soon.

So, let`s clear up now, what do we know? If you`re looking at this case,
are you checking airlines? Based upon physical descriptions? Are they
making judgments about the ethnic background of these people?

I assume they`re doing it all at this point.

know, just like Governor Ridge said with the airport technology, when he
was the homeland security secretary, they did a great job. We always loved
having him in law enforcement. He was very strong on that stuff.

You know, what this also tells us that we didn`t know before this press
conference, is we have a federal crime of conspiracy. That is one of the
most powerful federal laws. It says if two or more people conspire to
commit a crime against the United States.

So, that can add in additional co-conspirators. If he was talking to
somebody on the phone, like al Qaeda always use handlers like that, we`re
about to drop it, there could be other conspirators. It could have been a
foreign call. We don`t know. It could be a fake call.

But we`ve got two conspirators. We have federal conspiracy charges here.
So there could be accomplices. They could be helping afterward, before.

And like the governor said, maybe they surveilled this before. We call
this pre-incident indicators. Maybe they come out and walk the route.

So this is a whole lot of developments for agents and police that are going
to help them crack this case and get to the bottom of this and the main
thing, you know, like the CEO of Netscape said the main thing is trying to
keep the main thing the main thing.


CAVANAUGH: The main thing is no more bombs.

MATTHEWS: What you know about this bomb, Jim, is it possible that this
could have been put together on site? That it didn`t have to be carried on
an airport? That the type of bomb with the pressure cooker and the battery
pack and the circuit board, all that information we have about how it was
packed with nails and BBs, could that have been done with a simple
instruction book without ever bringing anything by aircraft?

CAVANAUGH: Absolutely, Chris. You could have come in here on an airplane
with just cash and desire and hatred and that could have been from any
point in the U.S. or around the world. Nothing else. Cash, desire,
hatred, knowledge, that`s all you need.

You could put these bombs together in a day, day and a half, two days. Buy
a backpack, buy a pressure cooker, buy your materials, put it together.
You might have practiced it at a place where you came from, detonated it.

That`s why they may feel secure like Mike Barnicle pointed out and they may
feel secure. They feel like they`re coming in, a couple of ghosts. They
can come in. They could buy the materials and they can slip out.

But they can`t. You know, they`re going to be captured.

But you`re exactly right. That`s a great point. You know, we like to
think about bomb makers in some kind of bomb factory that looks like this
big laboratory. And a lot of times it`s just, you know, the kitchen table.

MATTHEWS: Governor, this is what is disturbing. The other side has
brains, too.


MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

RIDGE: We`ve been talking about --

MATTHEWS: There`s an Allister McQueen aspect where they go and use our
airplane pilot training here. We saw it all -- use our airplane, our
commercial airplane routes, on schedule. They used everything that was
ours to kill us.

RIDGE: We talk about the 21st century digital world. Part of that is very
much the Internet. And sadly, horribly, regrettably, but the instructions
can be found on the Internet to build one of these. I mean, it`s not that
unusual or unique.

I remember, I think --

MATTHEWS: By the way, also the idea they could come in with a set of
memorized instructions. It doesn`t take any paper to do this.

RIDGE: Absolutely. I remember I think it was in 2003 or `04 working with
the FBI to send out a notification to local law enforcement about pressure
cooker because they were using them in Pakistan, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
These gentlemen probably remember it.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s take this from the top. We started quarter after
5:00 tonight. Mr. Borelli is an FBI agent.

I want you tell us -- tell me how now, they decided after a day or two, we
know from the fleeting, bad reporting, incomplete reporting the last few
days, we saw this coming, the guy in a baseball cap, turned backwards,
white cap. Another fella, in a black cap. Both of them about the same age
it looks like from the pictures, carrying black backpacks which match up
with the backpack we`ve been watching since Monday evening late sitting in
front of the storm fence in front of the Forum restaurant near the curb.

A lot of the information is coming to you like an old Polaroid. We`re
seeing it in develop in front of us. What`s next? When they put out this
universal APB, all points bulletin, they just put out 45 minutes ago, where
are we going from here? Are they sitting at some command center, a
situation room waiting for the calls to come in?

BORELLI: Yes, absolutely, Chris. This thing is being run out of a joint
operation center. We used to call it -- it`s a jock and it`s got all the
representatives, all the participating agencies, their command presence.
This is the nerve center and this jock.

And then what you`ll have is you`ll have basically just an army of
investigators ready to take leads.

So phone call comes in. It will triage and trying to say, this, you know,
is a priority one, two, or three. They`ll say, all right, team one, go out
and handle this. The next one will come in.

Team two, you got this when you go. So, it`s going to be teams running
out, covering leads, talking to people, getting additional information,
bringing it back to the jock. It will be analyzed, triaged, sorted
through, put back in the system, and this process is going to be going 24/7
until we get these guys.

MATTHEWS: To be blunt and not to be into political profiling or racial
profiling, but when you look at a picture that we`re looking at now, are
there people that can look at that picture, study it and decide whether a
fellow like that is from Yemen or other parts like that? Can they figure
it out by looking at a picture? Don?

BORELLI: I`ve never met anybody that can just say, you know, look at the
picture and say --

MATTEHWS: No, I mean, experts. Is there any way to study and face and say
we have a pretty good bet that that fella from certain -- you know, we can
do that with DNA. We can find out where our DNA came from -- how far it
took us to get from Africa to hear, for example, over the centuries.

Can they do that with a face?

BORELLI: Chris, you know, I honestly don`t know. I`ve never had
experience using anybody with that expertise in an investigation. So, I
can`t comment.

MATTHEWS: Jim, do you know anything about that? We have the pictures.
That`s what we have right now. I wonder what they can do with those

CAVANAUGH: Yes, I`ve never seen that, Chris. I mean, if there was some
discipline like that, I suppose it would be in the academic world, or in
some kind of DNA world as you described. But this will move way faster
than that.


CAVANAUGH: The way the world is, that`s pretty hard to discern.

I think you asked what result we could see next. I think overnight you can
see barricaded suspects. You could see barricaded suspects overnight or
you could see it not necessarily happening in the Boston area. Don`t get
confined that it`s in the Boston area. It could wind up being in any city
in America or any city in the world.

Somebody in London could call in and say this guys lives in the flat down
the street from me. I saw that on the BBC.

MATTHEWS: I agree. We saw that on 9/11 where the fellows came from
Germany, people came from Germany, and I`m not going to say the comment I
got about the guy`s I.Q., but the guy was asked, who you were training down
here, he said, I think they were from Germany. These guys were not from
Germany and any useful sense of that world.

Your thought? I think commonsense sometimes does play in that. These guys
were not from Germany. They were training to fly planes once they`re in
the air.

CAVANAUGH: That`s exactly right. Such a great thing. See something, say
something, Governor Ridge and everybody. And, you know, another thing
America needs to remember is, you know, take cover. There may be another.

Never think there`s only one of these things. If you respond like the
police and fire in Boston, if you`re helping or -- that`s bravery and
courage and understand. But if you`re not obligated or if you`re not doing
that, take cover. There may be another.

Don`t ever assume there`s just one.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Borelli, looking at the pictures again, we keep showing them
not just as a public service but people tuning in and wondering about the
case and now they are seeing these pictures, this is what we call news.
Finally, after days of intrigue and growing national interest, we see
people described as the two suspects.

In fact, Deslauriers, the special agent, Richard Deslauriers made a point
of saying, these are the suspects. There are no other persons of interest.
Don`t look at the pictures that came out of the Internet this morning and
overnight. Look at these two pictures for helping us in tracking these
people down.

Can they determine things like age of the people? What can they do looking
at these pictures visually in determining who they -- graduate students or
people in their early 20s, that can find out ways to find them on
registrars and things like that, registries?

BORELLI: Sure, Chris. There are experts that can look at these people and
roughly give an age estimate and things like that. But I think as Mr.
Cavanaugh pointed out, by the time they do that, I`m in firm belief that
these guys will be caught. I think this is not going to be anything we`ll
need to go to some more exotic means to figure out who these guys are.

I think it`s going to be, you know, kind of done the old-fashion way, like
an America`s most wanted type of thing where somebody will identify these
guys and realize that, you know, it`s not just everybody in America that`s
helping out. I mean, we`ve got a lot of allies overseas. I mean, a lot of
really good friends that have lended (ph) great assistance to us in
investigations, certainly ones that I`ve worked on.


BORELLI: So we`ve got a lot of help around the world.

MATTHEWS: Governor, as the first director of Homeland Security, and
secretary, you`re on a plane ride. You`re looking next to you in a plane.
There`s a guy sitting there. What do you do? One of these people, right
now, you`re waiting for a train at Amtrak and you look at the guy behind
you and it`s him.

RIDGE: Well, you know, I think --

MATTHEWS: What do you do?

RIDGE: I think you take the advice of the FBI and you don`t engage them.
You keep eyes on and you make sure you do an eyes on, pass a note or make
sure that some --

MATTHEWS: You don`t tackle the guy? I`m dead serious because I don`t want
people doing that.

RIDGE: Well, if he decides to make a move, I might. But I don`t think
that`s what you should do.

MATTHEWS: Well, you`re a former football player. But I think, generally,
I want some advice here because this is not a kidding matter.

Don, tell me what you would do if you were a civilian and you saw one of
these guys, especially the one guy we keep showing here.

BORELLI: I think you would pass a note to the flight attendant to notify
the captain to radio that you think you got one of the guys onboard so that
when the plane lands, they have a tactical team ready to go. They will
probably let the person get off, you know, kind of go about their normal
business and then as soon as it`s safe, there will be a tactical operation
to take custody.

MATTHEWS: When they say presumed extremely dangerous, how quickly do they
throw a tag like that on a suspect, extremely dangerous? Does that mean
because they are suspected of bombing and killing three people and maiming
perhaps over 100 people, they`re dangerous because of their, the conditions
of their souls? Or they have reasonably, they are armed?

BORELLI: It`s what they have done. I mean, these guys have constructed
two weapons of mass destruction that have killed and maimed hundreds of
people. So, I mean, that`s why they are armed and dangerous. And, you
know, beyond that, they could have weapons. Who knows? Side arms, who
only knows.

At least we know they are capable of making bombs. If they can make a
pressure cooker bomb, they can probably easily know how to make smaller
bombs that are concealable, like pipe bombs, so I mean, extremely

MATTHEWS: Here`s what we know, as we end this hour. I just want to run
through what we know and it was an extremely effective and very cogent
briefing by Mr. Deslauriers, Richard Deslauriers, the special agent in

Two people, two suspects, two young men we can see from the pictures, one
wearing a white baseball cap worn backwards with, as we pointed out, a hood
on the back, which was not over his head, carrying backpacks, black
backpacks, like the kind we`ve been watching in these surveillance tapes
from Lord & Taylor`s. And basically walking along there -- it looks like
shots of them there near the crime scene.

What we know about them is not much beyond what they look like. And that`s
what we`re looking at here. These are visual images. There you see it
right there. The backpack matching the description of somewhat 20-pound
pressure cooker containing the nails and the BBs and the blasting powder
all matching up with the bag that`s been on the curb there in front of
forum restaurant. We`ve been watching since Monday.

They want to publicize these pictures. They are asking you, who are
watching television right now, imagine if you knew any of these people, if
you think you know somebody, call the FBI. We`ve got the number there,
800-CALL-FBI. It`s easy to remember, 800-CALL-FBI.

You don`t need any more numbers than that. If you`re in doubt, call
anyway. If you see something, it`s very appropriate now to say something.
And that`s our duty tonight as part of this.

This is a bad crime. These are bad people in terms of what they`ve done.

Last word from everybody -- governor, this is great work so far, I think.

RIDGE: I think everybody should be commended for the extraordinary work
they have done. They have put a very complex piece of puzzle together.
We`ve identified two suspects and I do think you should listen to the FBI.
If you think they`re a suspect, if they`re standing next to you, if you`re
on the train, you`re plane, don`t do anything. Don`t tackle them.

You see something, say something, let the FBI -- let law enforcement handle

MATTHEWS: That`s what the former director and secretary for Homeland

Let me go to Don Borelli, former assistant agent in charge of the FBI.
Your thoughts. What people should do if they see one of these two people?

BORELLI: Just what everybody else has said, I echo that. Don`t try to
take the matter into your own hands. Call the 1800 FBI. Even call the
local police and let them handle if you just want -- if all you can
remember is 911, call 911 and let the local police handle it. It will get
in the right hands. Don`t worry about it.

MATTHEWS: Jim Cavanaugh of the ATF -- last question to you. Do bombers
tend to be cowardly people, people that crawl under the ground or are they
dangerous when they meet you?

CAVANAUGH: Well, they are very dangerous now because they are desperate
men, cold-blooded killers. These are people who are on a mission. You can
see it the way they`re walking through this, or a mission of mass murder.
So, they are going to be desperate and --

MATTHEWS: And they face murder one and they know it.

CAVANAUGH: They face murder one, and also the video is great because you
can see their gait, you can see how they walk, you can see their clothes.
So, they`re going to be very desperate, cold-blooded. They are very

So, you call the FBI, you call the local police, call 911, like Mr. Borelli
said. These guys will be found tonight. They`ll be found in the next 24
hours where they are and we`ll see something transpire.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well ,maybe we`ve helped. Thank you gentlemen from joining
us tonight.

We`ll have more coming up as the Reverend Al Sharpton right now.


Copyright 2013 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>