All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, May 7th, 2013

May 7, 2013

Guests: Connie Schultz, Anita Wooldridge, Louise Slaughter, Susan Burke,
Amy Klobuchar

CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.
Thank you for joining us on ALL IN tonight.

One day after we told you of the shocking arrest of the lieutenant
colonel in charge of curbing sexual assault in the United States Air Force,
a new Pentagon study is released showing an epidemic of sexual assault in
the military.

Plus, you know a civil war on immigration is underway in the
Republican Party when Grover Norquist testifies in favor of immigration

All that and #Click3 coming up.

But we begin tonight with a story out of Ohio that has captivated the
country today. Three different women missing for a decade all but written
off as dead all found alive about five miles from where they disappeared in
a Cleveland home where they`ve been held captive under unimaginable
conditions. The details of which have barely begun to take shape.

Michelle Knight was last seen at her cousin`s house on August 23rd
2002. She was 21 years old at the time. On April 21st, 2003, 16-year-old
Amanda Berry disappeared after leaving work at a Burger King near her home.
And on April 2nd, 2004, almost exactly a year later, 14-year-old Gina
DeJesus vanished on her way home from school, last seen at a development
booth just blocks away from where Michelle knight and Amanda Berry

And then, yesterday, nine years since Gina DeJesus was seen, 10 years
since the disappearance of Amanda Berry, and almost 11 years after Michelle
Knight went missing, all three women now in their 20s and 30s were found
and rescued from the home where they`d apparently been held captive all
this time.

The rescue came after a neighbor named Charles Ramsey heard a woman
screaming for help from inside the house. He helped break the door and the
woman escaped with a 6-year-old girl who authorities have since said they
believe is her daughter.

She told the neighbor her name was Amanda Berry and that she`d been
kidnapped 10 years ago. Both she and Ramsey called 911 from across the


AMANDA BERRY, KIDNAP VICTIM: Help me. I`m Amanda Berry.

DISPATCHER: You need police, fire, ambulance?

BERRY: I need police.

DISPATCHER: OK, and what`s going on there?

BERRY: I`ve been kidnapped and I`ve been missing for 10 years, and
I`m -- I`m here, I`m free now.

BERRY: I`m across the street; I`m using the phone.

DISPATCHER: OK, stay there with those neighbors. Talk to police when
they get there.



DISPATCHER: OK, talk to police when they get there.

BERRY: OK. Hello?

DISPATCHER: OK, talk to the police when they get there.


DISPATCHER: We`re going to send them as soon as we get a car open.

BERRY: No, I need them now before he gets back.

DISPATCHER: All right; we`re sending them, OK?

BERRY: OK, I mean, like --

DISPATCHER: Who`s the guy you`re trying -- who`s the guy who went

BERRY: His name is Ariel Castro.

DISPATCHER: OK. How old is he?

BERRY: He`s like 52.

DISPATCHER: All right. And --

BERRY: I`m Amanda Berry. I`ve been on the news for the last 10 years.


HAYES: Once police arrived, they found the other two women, Michelle
Knight and Gina DeJesus, all the women and the 6-year-old girl taken to the
hospital for evaluation. All have since been released.

Amanda Berry came be seen here on the right as she`s reunited with her
sister yesterday. Three men, three brothers, Onil, Ariel and Pedro Castro,
have been arrested on suspicion of rape and kidnapping in the case. Ariel
Castro is the owner of the home where the women were found. The FBI`s
working with local law enforcement officials and charges are expected to be
filed soon.

Authorities are not saying much of anything of what they believe the
suspects might have done to these women. But details about what the
women`s lives were like during their decade of captivity are slowly
trickling out, some through police leaks, some through other channels. And
every bit of it is horrible as you might imagine.

"USA Today" is out tonight with some truly shocking reports from the
neighbors of Ariel Castro, whose house the women were found in yesterday.
Quote, "Elsie Cintron, who lives three houses away said her daughter once
saw a naked woman crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard several
years ago and called police but they didn`t take it seriously, she said.

Another neighbor, Israel Lugo, said he heard pounding on some of those
doors of Castro`s house which had plastic bags in the windows in November
2011. Lugo said officers knocked on the front door but no one answered.
They walked to the side of the house and then left, he said.

According to that neighbor, he, his family and other neighbors called
police three times between 2011 and 2012 after seeing disturbing things at
Ariel Castro`s home.

Joining me tonight from Cleveland, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist
Connie Schultz.

Connie, thank you for joining me.

I wanted to start out asking you what the mood in the city of
Cleveland is like. I think all eyes were drawn to Cleveland in the wake of
this. The story was so remarkable and somehow at once hopeful because
three people that we thought were dead, that the city thought were dead are
now alive, and at the same time, almost too horrible to imagine.

And I`d like to get your sense of what the mood is in the city right

CONNIE SCHULTZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, it runs the gamut as you
can imagine, Chris. I have to say, when the news first broke, it was a
certain amount of astonishment being expressed directly to me from people
that I know, from readers, from other journalists. You could see it all
over social media, especially in the Cleveland area.

That quickly dissipated to certainly relief that the girls were alive,
horror at just imaging what they`ve been through. As you know, Amanda
Berry`s mother died three years after she disappeared. She died of heart
failure at age 44. That was coming up quite quickly in a lot of the feeds.

And this is -- this is a very hard thing for the city of Cleveland.
We are, of course, very happy that the young women are alive.

But, you know, as you know, I wrote for "The Washington Post" for this
today. And I -- in it, I talked about what happened four years ago in
Cleveland with a very different horrific ending when Anthony Sowell`s
house, the police entered that house and found the bodies of 11 African-
American women, all of whom had been reported missing, all of whom had
troubled backgrounds and many of them were distanced from their families
and were essentially forgotten.

So, the good news here is it was a different ending. The same
question, however, now looms. How could this have happened? How could
this have gone on?

It looks like at this point for 10 years at that house and what signs
were missed, what reports were ignored. It`s really -- those questions
will be circulating, of course, now.

HAYES: I had heard about the Sowell case, but had not -- was not
intimately familiar with it. I read your piece today, horrible details,
obviously. And one of the things about it that is shocking is there were
numerous complaints in the area of the stench coming from the house and so


HAYES: And the police, it seems -- I mean, I think there`s a sense
that the police did not take it seriously, did not do a good job of
investigating. It led to changes in appointment of a task force

And it seems to me that in the wake of the reporting that we`re
getting just from "USA Today", particularly now, about neighbors calling,
there`s going to be a whole host of similar questions about when exactly
police reported to the house, when the complaints were, and whether they
were properly followed up on and investigated.

SCHULTZ: Right. One of the best things that came out of the horrible
Sowell case was how the city of Cleveland, the residents of really not just
the city of Cleveland, the whole area of northeast Ohio, how they rallied
in support of women who were victims of violence.

It was really quite remarkable considering the neighborhood. It was
on the other side of Cleveland. It was in a very poor part of town that
used to thrive. The victims were all African-American, and it was such a
remarkable display of solidarity in support of women at that point and it
was really heartening to watch that.

And I`m hoping the same thing happens now. You know, I was talking to
one of your producers earlier today, I say whenever this sort of thing
happens, especially when it`s happening in Cleveland, I just start thinking
about what we do to our women --


SCHULTZ: -- in this country. It`s really hard. I`m a woman and I`m
a mother around these young women`s ages.

And so, you can imagine there are women like me certainly all across
the country, but in Cleveland, it`s so personal.

HAYES: I want to bring in Anita Wooldridge, author of "Eight Days in
Darkness: The True Story of Abduction, Rape, and Rescue of Anita
Wooldridge." She was abducted in 1998, was freed.

And, Anita, I first want to thank you for coming on and ask you, a
question a lot of people were asking. And, obviously, your circumstances
were different. You were with your captor for eight days as opposed to 10
years here.


HAYES: What the first step is towards trying to reassert normalcy,
trying to reclaim yourself coming out of something like this?

WOOLDRIDGE: I think the first thing was this reconnecting with my
family and knowing I had that support and then going on to do some therapy
and even 15 years later, still doing some therapy as a routine maintenance
to make sure, you know, everything stays all right in my life.

HAYES: There`s a kind of fear, I imagine, that permeates and one of
the things I think that`s particularly chilling in the 911 call is the
palpable fear, obviously in Amanda Berry`s voice about the fear of him
coming back.

Is that something that was hard for you to push past? Did that take
some doing to be able to grow through that?

WOOLDRIDGE: It does. And even though they -- you know they`re in
jail, until it`s -- you know, they`ve been prosecuted and you know they`re
going to stay there and you know they don`t have friends or family or
people who are going to come after you, it`s not really until then you can
be at ease.

HAYES: Connie, I was -- we were talking about this in the editorial
meaning this morning in the context when you just said about women and
violence against women and subjugation of women and, obviously, I think the
facts as we are learning them out of Cleveland are so macabre, so terrible,
so anomalous, thank God, a rare occurrence.

But just like what happened in Newtown was a rare anonymous act of
violence that then led to conversation about a much more mundane but no
less grisly bit of violence in America, which is the amount of people
killed by guns every day and every year, you know, this happens -- this
shocking and monstrous story we`re hearing out of Ohio happens in a country
in which 54 percent of sexual assaults go unreported, in which as many as -
- there`s a rape every 6.3 minutes.

We are in a country, a culture that does have -- continue a very
serious endemic problem with violence against women.

SCHULTZ: Well, and the thing about events such as this, the rape
crisis center here in Cleveland put out an e-mail blast today making it
clear that they were there for support for all the women who are survivors
of domestic violence, survivors of rape because this dredges up everything
for so many of them.

You know, it becomes so personal to so many women here and certainly
across the country. But especially right now here in Cleveland. It`s --
listening to Anita talk about how long it has taken and how she`s still
getting therapy, this is what I want us to be thinking about, as well, is
there is no quick fix now.


SCHULTZ: We want to have it be done. We want to feel better about

HAYES: I want to play, it`s sort of a strange coincidence, Elizabeth
Smart, of course, who was quite famously abducted and held captive for
years. She has as part of her life after that horrible period has done
public speaking. And she was just in the news addressing a conference
giving this incredible bit of sort of confessional honesty about her ordeal
and living through and it wrestling with it.

And I want to play it for you, Anita, and get your thoughts about it
as we think about the lives of women who thank God they are alive are going
to be tomorrow and a year from now and ten years from now.

Take a listen.


ELIZABETH SMART, KIDNAP VICTIM: I have to tell you, one of the
questions that is most commonly asked me is, well, why didn`t you run away?
Why didn`t you yell? Why didn`t you scream?

I think it goes even beyond fear. For so many children, especially in
sex trafficking, it`s feelings of self-worth. It`s feeling like who would
ever want me now. I am worthless.

That was -- that is what it was for me when I was the first time I was
raped. I remember in school one time, I had a teacher who was talking
about -- well, about abstinence and said, imagine you`re a stick of gum and
when you engage in sex that`s like getting chewed. And then if you do that
lots of times, you`re going to become an old piece of gum and who`s going
to want you after that?

Well, that`s terrible, but nobody should ever say that. But for me, I
thought, oh, my gosh, I`m that chewed up piece of gum. Nobody re-chews a
piece of gum. You throw it away.

And that`s how easily it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you
no longer have value. Why would it be worth screaming out? Why would it
make a difference if you are rescued, your life still has no value.


HAYES: Anita, I know in having reported in talking to people who have
worked with women who are survivors of sexual abuse how important it is to
reject this sort of social sense that sexual assault is in some sense the
responsibility of the survivor and not wholly of the perpetrator.

WOOLDRIDGE: Yes, I went through that for quite a while. And, you
know, I got to realize, what happened to me was in no way my fault. It`s
not anything I did. I didn`t choose for it to happen. And that, you know,
one day, the right person`s going to come along and they`re going to accept
all that and know it`s not my fault.

HAYES: Anita Wooldridge and syndicated columnist Connie Schultz,
thank you both for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.

SCHULTZ: Thank you, Chris.

WOOLDRIDGE: Thank you.

HAYES: The president says he expects consequences after the Pentagon
released a shameful new report on sexual assault in the military. That`s


HAYES: An update on the story of Kiera Wilmot. She`s the 16-year-old
Florida student who was expelled and faces felony charges as an adult for
exploding the cap off a plastic water bottle at her school. Our reporter
Ned Resnikoff spoke with Kiera`s science tutor and you can read the
interview at The tutor`s advice to Kiera, "I said
you`re going to hear all kinds of stuff to people, but all I want you to
know is you`re smart, beautiful and capable."

We`re still hoping cooler heads will prevail in this story. So we
will continue to follow the developments.

And you can follow us on Twitter @allinwithchris.


HAYES: All right. This is a brochure distributed at the Shaw Air
Force Base in South Carolina on how not to be raped on an Air Force base.
The brochure obtained by "Wired" magazine is believed to be current and
advises women on base to walk facing oncoming traffic, be suspicious of
vehicles parked close and be careful when people stop you for directions.

It warns women that rapists are not easy to pick out, meaning they
don`t like a rapist, and they tend to have hyper-masculine attitudes.

But if all of those pearls of wisdom don`t prevent an attack, it tells
women to consider rolling under a nearby auto and scream loud. And if all
else fails, it may be advisable to submit than resist.

Now, if those set of tips of how not to get assaulted on an Air Force
base by watching your back at every single moment, if that creates a
nightmarish scenario of moment teeming with attackers -- well, they are
even more disturbing in the context of the shocking numbers released today
by the Pentagon about sexual assault in the military.

The Pentagon study estimates that 26,000 people in the military were
sexually assaulted in 2012, from 19,000 in the same period a year before.
We are seeing epidemic levels of sexual assault in the military and it is
getting worse.

At the very moment we were supposed to be making progress integrating
women more and more into the armed forces, it is getting worse. So today
we are witnessing somewhat of a perfect story, horrifying numbers out of
the pentagon coupled with the arrest we told you about last night of
Lieutenant Colonel Jeffrey Krusinski who until yesterday headed the program
to curb sexual assault in the U.S. Air Force and is himself accused of
sexually assaulting a woman over the weekend. His mug shot reveals
apparent scratches by the woman he allegedly assaulted who appears did not

Today, while questioning Air Force General Welsh, New York Senator
Kirsten Gillibrand captured some of the profound exasperation felt by many
about the military failing to deal with or comprehend the enormity of the
problem they face.


SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D), NEW YORK: The man in charge for the Air
Force in preventing sexual assault is being alleged to have committed a
sexual assault this weekend. Obviously there`s a failing in training and
understanding of what sexual assault is and how corrosive and damaging it
is to good order and discipline, and how it is undermining the credibility
of the greatest military force in the world.


HAYES: Joining me tonight, Congresswoman Louise Slaughter of New
York, who`s been a leader on this issue; former U.S. Marine Goldie Taylor,
who`s a contributor at MSNBC and; and Susan Burke, an attorney
representing survivors of rape in the military.

And, Ms. Burke, I think I want to begin with you. I guess my question
to you is, were these numbers surprising to you, A, and, B, how are we to
understand the increase? I mean, we can talk about the culture that exists
and institutional problems and the problems of the chain of command.

But looking at these numbers and seeing an increase between 2011 and
2012, what are we to make of that?

aren`t surprising at all because what you have is you have a two-decade
long period when the military has simply failed to prosecute and convict
rapists. And since the reality is that most rapists are serial rapists.
If you don`t catch them, lock them up, put them in jail, they`re going to
have multiple victims.

So, I viewed the numbers as almost inevitable rise that just
demonstrates that the military has woefully failed on their task of public
safety, on prosecuting rapists.

HAYES: Congresswoman, does that -- does that essentially jive with
the way you understand the numbers we`re seeing today?

REP. LOUISE SLAUGHTER (D), NEW YORK: Not really. I`ve been working
in this for over 20 years, Chris, and I first got interested in it reading
about nurses who served in Vietnam. They were not in the military and
combat area, but all of them in this one unit came back -- this story
appeared when they were putting up the statue of nurses over by the Vietnam

All of the people -- all those women had been raped. One by the
chaplain, they had no place to go, no one to talk to and not even discussed
it until this honor was coming up and they talked to a reporter about it.

I`ve seen this over and over again, it`s a matter of culture. And if
we`re going to think it`s someone who is a bad apple, we have to think
about the academies, you know, members of Congress send students to the
academies. And we pick the cream of the crop.

We get the top intelligence -- the top students, we get the people who
do lots of community service, boy and girl scouts, people who have lived
exemplary life up to about 18, we send them to the academy and many times,
we see the sexual assault.

So, there`s something in the culture. And I think if we don`t finally
learn what that is, we`re never going to do it.

HAYES: OK. So --

SLAUGHTER: But over the years, I have had more generals traipsing
through my office, colonel or someone in tow, somebody of that rank,
telling me it`s going to be OK. It`s not going to be OK.

HAYES: So there`s a cultural aspect to this from what I`m hearing
from you, Congresswoman.

SLAUGHTER: Has to be.

HAYES: There`s a legal -- there`s an accountability aspect I`m
hearing from you, Susan. Goldie, as a marine who served at a moment that
isn`t the current 10-year period where we`ve had the highest percentage of
women serving in the military`s history, what is your reaction to the news?
How does it resonate with your service when you were serving?

GOLDIE TAYLOR, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, number one, Chris, thanks for
having me.

I am frankly not surprised. When I first enlisted 26 years ago, you
know, myself and others were confronted with this very thing. Not only is
this an allowable thing, it is rewarded, I would say.

The women who are victims are often pressured not to go forward with
charges. And if they decide to go forward with charges, the credibility is
attacked. They are re-victimized.

Many of them are sent for lie detector tests. They`re sent for
psychological exams. Many of these women`s careers are ended, they are
sent home without benefits.

Meanwhile, the men are never prosecuted, by and large. They are
traded from duty station to duty station, where they can re-victimize other
women. They never serve a day in jail and those most egregious cases where
they do decide they need to discharge someone dishonorably and send them
home, they don`t spend a day in the brig and certainly aren`t punished by
civilian law.

And so, they`re simply allowed to go home, out into the civilian
communities, and re-victimize other women.

HAYES: Right.

TAYLOR: And so this is the culture that we`re dealing with. If I
write a bad check at the commissary, my commanding officer is going to call
me up and threaten a court-martial for me. If, however, I am raped, my
rapist will likely get away with it.

HAYES: So, I -- there`s some numbers -- Congresswoman, there`s
numbers on this that I want to show because I think they show exactly the
problem and I`d like to get your reaction to them, Susan. I`d like to talk
about how -- because this sounds to me. I did a lot of reporting on the
child rape scandal in the Catholic Church, and there`s a lot of
institutional similarities.

So, I want to talk about solving this, actually bringing some
accountability to bear and look at these hard numbers, right after we take
this quick break.


HAYES: We`re talking about the shameful number of sexual assaults in
the military which we learned today is up 35 percent since 2010.

And, Susan Burke, an attorney who represents survivors of sexual
assault in the military, I want to look just walk through these numbers
very quickly.

This is from the report that we got from the Pentagon today: 26,000
people in the military were sexually assaulted. That`s estimated based on
anonymous surveys. Over 3,000 reports of sexual assault, 2,600 completed
investigations, 594 court-martials, 302 cases went to court, all the way
down to 238 convictions.

So, our top line, you`ve got 26,000 people who reported being sexually
assaulted and you have 238 convictions.

What is breaking down there?

BURKE: What`s breaking down is the system. The Uniform Code of
Military Justice, the way it is currently structured allows the chain of
command. So people who are the boss of the alleged rapists or the boss`s
boss. It allows them to step in and make an adjudicatory decision.

So, for example, there`s a recent case in which a Lieutenant Colonel
Wilkerson (ph), he was convicted by a jury of his peers of other lieutenant
colonels and colonels in the Air Force and he was found to have raped a
woman. Yet, General Franklin, his superior took a look at the jury verdict
and said, oh, I don`t agree, I really think Lieutenant Colonel Wilkerson is
a good guy and set it aside.

That`s a broken judicial system. It doesn`t work. You`ve got to
change that. Congress has to act to change that.

HAYES: So, congresswoman, there`s -- this is where it looks like this
is heading in terms of the debate legislatively and policy-wise. Secretary
of Defense Hagel today seemed unenthusiastic about the idea of Congress
asserting authority to move this out of the chain of command. What is your
feeling about that?

SLAUGHTER: Well, let me give you another statistic for a second; 62
percent of the persons who -- men and women, who reported sexual assault
were retaliated against. Now, I wrote legislation against that, that
allows them to go back and appeal to a board that can change military
records, and change it so that they can get their pension and have a
future, maybe paid for promotions they were not allowed to have.

It is a wonderful piece of legislation, passed, signed and in effect.
But I don`t even know if military people now about it. I don`t know if
it`s ever been used. I`m not sure legislation is really the thing that`s
going to do it. But lord knows, I`ve written plenty of it. And I`m not
going to give up.

But I would have to say that waking up this morning to find a six
percent increase in the numbers was horrifying to me. I met young Women
who told me that when they reported, people would say to them, you don`t
want to ruin that young man`s career, do you? I even wrote the legislation
that allowed them to be transferred because a soldier told me that every
morning she had to salute her rapist.

It`s far more difficult and intricate than I think we realize. There
are no easy answers here. But I do believe still that the culture of the
military and all the power that goes with high command and persons in
higher echelons of officers really has a lot to do with it.

HAYES: So on that culture, Goldie, I want to show you this video. We
were looking at this video yesterday when the news came out about
Lieutenant Colonel Kosinski. This is an ostensibly anti-sexual assault
video that`s on the Air Force page. But it just doesn`t seem like it
captures the problem. It seems to show to me a culture there that is not
quite getting it.

I want to get your reaction, Goldie. Just take a look at this video.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me be real clear, every Airman, every single
one of you, deserves to be treated with respect. All of us are responsible
for creating a climate where that`s the expectation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This begins with adhering to standards and living
by our core values. It means showing respect for our teammates and for

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It also means exercising personal responsibility
and moral courage, maybe choosing not to have one more drink and then do or
say something stupid. Airmen share a special bond. We have to be able to
trust each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me, that means protection from bad situations
and sometimes from ourselves. A good wingman looks out for us, on and off

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And real wingmen intervene before their friends do
something stupid.


HAYES: I got to say, Goldie, sexual assault is not something stupid.
It`s not something that happens after someone has a few drinks, right? It
is a crime. It is an act of violence. It is an act of domination. And
this to me, in referring to it as something stupid euphemistically twice,
makes me feel like they are not getting it.

TAYLOR: Sounds to me like they`re pulling the responsibility on the
victim to keep themselves out of these situations when actually this is a
violent crime. This is in the culture. It is a metastasized cancer. It
is down to the bone. And I applaud Congresswoman Gillibrand and
Congresswoman Slaughter for the work that they`ve done over the many years
to help root out these issues. The solution here is investigation and

HAYES: Right.

TAYLOR: There is no fear and punishment. There is no real fear that
you`re going to be punished if you rape a fellow service member. There is
real fear that if you report it, that something`s going to happen to your
career. And you`re certainly not going to get the support and the help you
need. That is the issue.

The military`s built on assets, whether it be the weaponry that we
have or the house -- the barracks that we live in or the men and women who
serve. It seems to me that our nation`s military has placed more value on
the male asset than they have on the female asset. And they`ve decided
which one they want to keep.

HAYES: I should note something in the numbers of the anonymous
survey. A very surprisingly high number, at least I thought surprisingly
high number, of the people who report having been sexually assaulted are

TAYLOR: Absolutely.

HAYES: This is not --

SLAUGHTER: One point two percent.

HAYES: And this is not just --

SLAUGHTER: It`s not just a women`s issue.

HAYES: Not just women. Congresswoman Louise Slaughter, MSNBC
contributor Goldie Taylor, and attorney Susan Burke, there`s a lot more to
talk about this. We`re going to be revisiting it in the days to come.

SLAUGHTER: That brochure is important. If that brochure still
exists, then we haven`t come very far.

HAYES: I agree. Thank you all for joining me and thank you for the
next time we talk about this.

Breaking news right now; it was election day in South Carolina and the
special election in South Carolina`s first congressional district has been
called by the Associated Press for -- drum roll -- Republican Mark
Sanford. The scandal plagued former South Carolina governor, Sanford
previously held the seat for three terms. He defeated Democrat Elizabeth
Colbert Busch, the sister of comedian Stephen Colbert.

The last time a Democrat represented South Carolina`s first district
was 1981. It was, of course, an uphill climb for Colbert Busch in a
district that voted for Mitt Romney by -- listen to this -- 18 points. But
Sanford also suffered from the National Republican Congressional Committee
pulling funding from his campaign. F. Scott Fitzgerald`s movie the "Great
Gatsby" will be out in theaters soon. And it was, of course, him who
famously said there are no second acts in American life.

He was wrong. Meet Mark Sanford. We`ll be right back with Click


HAYES: Jim Demint and the Heritage Foundation are working overtime
getting conservatives outraged about immigration reform, amnesty and
welfare. That`s why Democrats like Senator Amy Klobuchar are peeling off
Republicans and pitting them against the Heritage Foundation. The senator
joins me shortly.

But first, I want to share the three awesomest things on the Internet
today, beginning with an act of kindness by a great athlete. This Youtube
video of Dodgers center fielder Matt Kemp. After third base coach Tim
Wallach told him about a fan with a disability watching the game, Kemp
signs a ball and hands it back to the fan. The Youtube description
explaining "Matt Kemp is such a great person."

But Kemp wasn`t done. The ball was not enough, neither was the hat,
the shirt off his back, maybe? Nope, Kemp still wasn`t done. The shoes,
though, will do. The Youtube description explaining, he came over after
the game, made one of my best friend`s night. My friend is fighting a
tough battle and this was such a great gift by Matt Kemp. The Dodgers lost
to the Giants that night in San Francisco, and this was Matt Kemp`s
epilogue after the game. Awesome.

The second awesomest thing on the Internet today, David Foster Wallace
imagined the author`s 2005 commencement address to Kenyon college set to
video, beginning with a parable about goldfish.


DAVID FOSTER WALLACE, AUTHOR: They happened to meet an older fish
swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, morning, boys, how`s the
water? And the two young fish swim on for a bit and then eventually, one
of them looks over at the other and goes, what the hell is water?


HAYES: That is just the beginning of just a beautiful, incredible
speech as visualized by the, because the commencement address
is really about much more, the egocentric frustrations and disappointments
of every day life, and its mind dulling relentlessness. Wallace does
gorgeous humane notes of grace.


WALLACE: You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what
doesn`t. That is real freedom.


HAYES: That speech has changed my life. It was a salve to fans like
myself after Wallace`s death. And if you listen the whole address, you`ll
get the tie-in to the fish parable.

And the third awesomest thing on the Internet today, perhaps the
awesomest thing ever on Click Three, a gift from a viewer. Nora
Fitzpatrick Tweets my nine-year-old daughter drew this picture of you
during Friday`s breaking news. This was Friday`s breaking news about the
Israeli air strike inside Syria, I look very serious.

This was the drawing by that nine-year-old Grace Stevens, a truly fine
rendition right down to, get this -- I love this -- the detail, on the
phone with Andrea Mitchell. I love it. I would have to confess an
improvement actually on the source material. Thank you, Nora Grace.

You can find all the links for tonight`s Click Three on our website, We`ll be right back.


HAYES: Forty four-year-old Willie Jerome Manning is alive this
evening. And as recent as this afternoon, we thought we`d be bringing you
the news of his execution. You see, Manning was scheduled to be put to
death at 6:00 p.m. tonight for the 1992 murders of two Mississippi State
University students. But about three hours before he was to die by lethal
injection, the Mississippi Supreme Court decided eight to one that it is
therefore ordered that the motion to stay execution filed by Willie Jerome
Manning is hereby granted, pending further order of this court.

This is a sharp, surprising reversal from their five to four decision
just last month that the existing evidence tying Willie Jerome Manning to
the murder of two college students in 1992 was so strong that the findings
of DNA tests would not make a difference. You heard that correctly.

Mississippi State officials had refused to test DNA and fingerprint
evidence in the case, ruling that it would not exonerate him based on all
the other evidence introduced at the trial. Writing in dissent of the
Mississippi Supreme Court`s first ruling, Justice James Kitchen stated that
"without further testing, the investigation of these horrible crimes will
remain incomplete."

And just last week, the U.S. Justice Department doubled down on that
opinion by acknowledging that they weren`t so sure about the state`s
evidence against Manning. The Justice Department wrote a pair of letters
to prosecutors in the case. The second letter, dated last Saturday,
states, in part, "we have determined that the microscopic hair comparison
analysis testimony or laboratory report presented in this case included
additional statements that exceeded the limits of science and was therefore

Exceeded the limits of science. So the FBI offered last week to
conduct DNA testing on hair samples found in the victim`s car. But
Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood didn`t see a need for it.


JIM HOOD, MISSISSIPPI ATTORNEY GENERAL: Not that the state would not
allow testing to be done in this case. That is a misconception out there.
It didn`t meet the criteria because all that we`re talking about was some
fragmented hairs.


HAYES: There was testimony in the 1994 trial that hairs found in the
victim`s car belonged to an African-American. Manning is black. The
victims, John Stekler and Tiffany Miller, were white. The Justice
Department pointed out that an examiner cannot testify with any statement
of probability whether the hair is from a particular racial group, but can
testify that a hair exhibits traits associated with a particular racial

In short, what the Justice Department is saying is that just because
the hair you found looks like it belongs to someone who is black doesn`t
necessarily conclude overwhelming evidence of Manning`s guilt, just because
he too is black. As you can also imagine, the case where a black man was
accused of murdering two white people in the deep south was marked by
uncomfortable echoes of the kind of racial attitudes you`d find in Harper
Lee`s "To Kill a Mockingbird."

During the jury selection for the trial, Andrew Cohen, a contributing
editor for the "Atlantic," and a fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice,
wrote that black jurors were dismissed because they regularly read "Jet"
and "Ebony" magazine. White jurors who read "Time" and "Newsweek" were
kept. A black juror who read those same magazines was struck.

In addition to this, a jailhouse informant at the trial who told
jurors that Manning confessed to him to shooting both victims has since
recanted his testimony, telling defense lawyers he thought he would get
consideration from prosecutors for incriminating Manning.

And according to the "Washington Post," fingerprints found in the
victim`s car did not match Manning`s or the victims, and have never been
checked against government databases. The case against Willie Jerome
Manning deserves a closer examination, not just for his sake, but for the
victim`s families and the public at large and for justice.

Tonight, against the wishes of Mississippi`s governor and attorney
general, the state Supreme Court gave us all a chance to see that everyone
involved in this case gets that.

Up next, the ongoing Republican civil war over immigration reform.
I`ll talk to Senator Amy Klobuchar about the view from the other side of
the aisle and whether real reform can actually happen.


HAYES: As the Senate`s bipartisan immigration bill is prepared for a
first round of legislative edits, it is becoming increasingly clear that
whether or not a bill can get passed will be determined by who wins an
increasingly bitter and brutal civil war now being openly fought on the
right. If the elites of the Republican party believe that passing
meaningful reform was going to be easy, the Heritage Foundation has now
shot that belief to pieces.

Yesterday, the conservative think tank released a scathing report
warning that the proposal, which would create a pathway to citizenship for
the nation`s 11 million undocumented workers, would cost the taxpayers more
than six trillion -- yes trillion with a T -- dollars in new spending on
social programs. Terms like welfare and amnesty are deployed throughout.

Many economists dispute the numbers Heritage cites. But the
conservative think tank`s new president, former South Carolina Senator Jim
Demint, begs to differ.


person could read this study and conclude that over 50 years -- that they
could possibly be have a positive economic impact.


HAYES: Well, I don`t know if Grover Norquist counts as a sensible
person, but enter Grover Norquist. Today, Norquist went before a
congressional joint economic committee to make the free market,
conservative argument for comprehensive reform, the short version of which
is legalization and immigration will contribute to economic growth.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we didn`t have the 12 million illegals in the
United States now, what would the economic effect of that be?

where people came in. These are people who -- there was no legal


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would it be positive or negative if we didn`t have
those 12 million illegal immigrants?

NORQUIST: GDP would be smaller.



HAYES: Norquist also questioned Heritage`s claims on the cost of


NORQUIST: You take those numbers that Heritage puts out on
entitlement, it`s an argument against having children. I mean, children
tend to be much younger than immigrants. Their English is much more
limited. They don`t work very often. And they`re going to get a lot more
out of the entitlement program than they put in. It`s not -- that`s a bad
argument against children. It`s a good --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I figured that out.

NORQUIST: It`s a good argument for reforming entitlements.


HAYES: Other key players are also openly disputing the study`s
merits. As Senator Marco Rubio told reporters today, "their argument is
based on a single premise which I think is flawed. That is these people
are disproportionately poor because they have no education. They will be
poor for the rest of their lives in the U.S. Quite frankly, that is not
the immigration experience in the U.S."

Former Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour was a little more blunt.
"It`s a political document. It`s not serious analysis."

From a think tank, really? But that`s precisely the point. The guys
at Heritage did not write that report for you or for me. They didn`t write
that report for Democratic lawmakers or the "New York Times." They wrote
that report for the right wing base. Those figures that Heritage is
presenting will be recited over and over again on right wing talk radio,
because this report is reverse engineered based on what will get the base
most riled up.

The guys at Heritage know they will get a reaction when they say
welfare. They know they will get a reaction when they say amnesty and when
they put them together. The study is an open declaration of war on
Republican party elite who are now quite committed, in a past the point of
no return kind of way, to some kind of comprehensive immigration reform

What`s so remarkable about where we stand on this right now is that
the fate of over 11 million human beings hangs in the balance as dueling
conservative think tanks duke it out.

Joining me tonight, Senator Amy Klobuchar, Democrat from Minnesota,
vice chair of the Joint Economic Committee, which held the immigration
hearing today at which Mr. Norquist testified.

Senator, my sense is that you`ve got the gang of eight, there is
momentum. There is a big question about the dog that didn`t bark, being
the right wing reaction that happened in 2006 and `07 to blow up the last
attempt at this. Switch boards lit up, petitions delivered, people at town

What are you seeing? What are you hearing from your constituents?
What are you hearing from your colleagues across the aisle about whether
the Heritage report is playing and whether we`re going to see something
like we saw in 2006, 2007?

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D), MINNESOTA: Well, I think you saw the answer
today with the immediate pushback. I actually asked Grover Norquist,
Chris, because I thought it was important for a number of the House
Republicans to hear what I heard from him in the Judiciary Committee, that
this actually reduces the debt, which is something he cares a lot about,
and this is actually good for the economy as we move forward. That was the
focus of our hearing.

You have conservative senators like John McCain, Marco Rubio, who not
only push back on this report, but have been leaders on immigration reform.
So we are ready for this like we haven`t been ready before. We know that
this is necessary for our economy, that it`ll be a positive for our
economy. Ninety of the Fortune 500 companies that we have right now were
formed by immigrants; 200 of them were formed by immigrants of kids of
immigrants. Immigration has really made this economy move. It`s been the
engine behind this economy. We have to make that strong argument to both
Democrats and Republicans.

HAYES: Can I ask you an honest question here? As a liberal, I
remember going to a hearing once I covered on immigration reform a few
years back on the Hill, and Alan Greenspan, who was playing the role of
Grover Norquist, making the conservative economic argument for it -- when I
see Grover Norquist and Alan Greenspan and when I see the Chamber of
Commerce and when I see Mark Zuckerberg and his CEO buddies getting
together and dumping all this money in, there`s some part of me that starts
to get really nervous about where exactly this bill is headed, because as a
general matter, those are not people who I feel have the best interest of,
say, working people in mind.

And so if I look over to that side and I say, wow, you`ve got the
Chamber, you`ve got Grover Norquist, you`ve got Greenspan, you`ve got all
of these people, why should I think that this actually can be a win/win for
working class folks, as well, for the folks whose lives are at stake here,
and not end up being essentially a way of supplying cheap labor to
corporations that want cheap labor?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, Chris, I think all you need to do is look in the
eyes of a Dreamer. Look in the eyes of one of these high school students,
where all they want to do is to be in America, is to do well, look at these
immigrants that have served in our military that want to be citizens. Look
at the migrant workers, the head of the migrant workers who is firmly
behind this bill.

It has happened over time, after doing a dry run in 2007, that people
have really come together behind this bill, the undocumented workers who
want that chance to get a pathway to citizenship, who are willing to pay
fines, learn English, do what they`re supposed to do. That`s what this
bill is about.

Sure, it has business support. I think that`s a good thing. But we
have brought labor together. We have worked really hard on this bill to
make sure it works for everyone. It`s never going to be perfect. We`re
going to have endless hearings in Judiciary. That`s great. Endless votes
on amendments. But I want you to think of those faces of those kids, that
all they want to do is be Americans. This bill lets them do it.

HAYES: I agree with that. And briefly, my question to you, though,
is we know there`s pressure coming on the right flank from the Republicans
coming to the table. Are you -- are Democrats getting pressure on the left
flank about exactly what are in the devil of the details of this bill?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, I think we always want to make sure it`s fair to
American workers. And that`s why I worked really hard on some of the
proposals to make sure that we have engineers and scientists that are able
to stay here if they get their degree here, just like we let hockey players
and basketball players stay here. So we also made sure in this bill that
there are some provisions in there to make sure that some of these firms
that just are there to bring in people only on these visas, as opposed to
other businesses, that there`s some limitations on them.

There`s a number of things that are protection for American workers,
especially construction workers.

HAYES: -- as this plays out in the amendments and the mark-up.
Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you so much. That is ALL IN for this evening.

"THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts now. Good evening, Rachel.


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