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PoliticsNation, Wednesday, May 8th, 2013

Read the transcript from the Wednesday show

May 8, 2013

Guests: Casey Jordan; Brian Cummings; Israel Lugo; Marcia Fudge, Joe Madison, Eleanor Holmes Norton, JoyReid

REVEREND AL SHARPTON, MSNBC ANCHOR: Thanks, Chris, and thanks to you
for tuning in.

Tonight`s lead, home at last in an amazing and emotional scene today,
two of the freed women came home. Amanda Berry arrived at the house to
flowers, balloons, and cheers. Her sister fought back tears.


BETH BERRY, AMANDA BERRY`S SISTER: We appreciate all you have done
for us throughout the past ten years. Please respect our privacy until we
are ready to make our statements and thank you.


SHARPTON : And it was a gripping and deeply moving scene when Gina
Dejesus returned home and she gave a thumbs up to the cheering crowd. Her
mother spoke about never giving up hope.


NANCY RUIZ, GINA DEJESUS` MOTHER: I want to thank everybody that
believed even when I said she was alive and believed and I want to thank
them. Even the ones that doubted, I still want to thank them the most.
Because they are the ones that made me stronger, the ones that made me feel
the most that my daughter was out there.


SHARPTON : But as the family`s celebrated the return of their loved
ones, we`re also learning details of what happened inside the house of
Harold`s. The women were kept in separate rooms. And this is stunning.
They never left the property in ten years. They were allowed outside only
two times. The first attempted escape was Monday when Amanda got out.
Police report the house was in disarray and the FBI took over 200 items
from the home.

Moments ago, the Cleveland police read the charges.


ED TOMBA, DEPUTY POLICE CHIEF: I just signed criminal complaints
charging Ariel Castro with four counts of kidnapping and three counts of

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four kidnapped victims are Gina, Amanda, Michelle,
and the young child. And the victims of the rape are Gina, Amanda, and


SHARPTON : Ten years inside the house. What an amazing story.

Joining me now live from the scene is MSNBC`s Craig Melvin -- Craig.

Craig, tell us what you can tell. What have we learned today? It`s
been an eventful day. What have we learned down there today?

CRAIG MELVIN, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: We have been sifting through this
police report. It`s about a dozen pages, Reverend Al. And I`m just going
to read a snippet from this report for our viewers at home. Again, this
just kind of details what was going on inside the two-story house of
horrors behind me for the past decade. This is based on the three initial
conversations with the women being held captive as told to police earlier
today. They also told us how the arrested male Ariel Castro was able to
get them into his vehicle initially.

This is how he was able to move. Victim one, Michelle, said that she
was in the area of west 106th street at Marine avenue when Ariel offered
her a ride home and took her to his house. Amanda Berry walking home from
the Burger King where she worked on west 110th street in Lorraine. That`s
when Ariel offered her a ride home. This was after he told her that his
son worked at the same Burger King and, of course, keep in mind he does not
have a son. Gina Dejesus, in the area of 105th in Lorraine Avenue. When
Ariel approached Gina, with his daughter, according to the police report,
he used his daughter to lure Gina into the car.


MELVIN: So, he offered rides to all three of the women to get all
three of the young girls to come back to the house.

Michelle at one point during the initial conversation with police told
police that at least five times she was pregnant with the arrested male
Ariel and when he found out that she was pregnant, she stated that he would
make her abort the baby. She then stated that he starved her for at least
two weeks, then repeatedly punched her in the stomach until she miscarried.

SHARPTON : This is all in the police report, Craig?

MELVIN: It`s all in the police report. And Reverend Al, you should
know and your viewers should know that we are not sharing because they are
perhaps too graphic for cable news in the evening around dinnertime. But
again, it paints a chillingly disturbing picture of what was happening
behind me.

SHARPTON : Craig, you are telling me that one of the victims says she
was pregnant five times, yet he would punch her to miscarriage the baby,
they never were even brought out to have abort the baby, there was no
medical attention, he did all of this himself and they never left the
house, according to this police report? .

MELVIN: According to the report. In fact, Reverend Al, none of the
three women have seen a doctor in the decade. The 6-year-old, the little
girl -- we`ll talk about that in a second, who was born at the house, she`s
never seen a doctor. At one point shortly after her birth she was some
sort of distress, some sort of medical distress. And according to the
police report, that is when the 52-year-old said, quote "if the baby dies,
I`ll kill you." Michelle then stated that the child -- the child`s name,
stopped breathing at one point, she then breathed into her child`s mouth to
keep her alive. Now, the baby, by the way -- go ahead.

SHARPTON : Wow. You`re telling me that, so even the child was born
there with no medical attention, she went through a delivery with no
medical attention and he threatened to kill her, the mother, Michelle, if
the child died and when the child stopped breathing she breathed into the
child to keep the child alive all in the house, never any medical
attention, never brought anyone out even an assumed name to the hospital or
anything in that nature, according to the police report?

MELVIN: According to the police report, no. The women haven`t seen a
doctor, the baby hasn`t seen doctor, the 6-year-old now. At one point,
according to the police report, Michelle actually delivered Amanda`s baby
in the house in a plastic baby pool so it would be easier to clean up.

SHARPTON : Now, am I hearing you right, Craig, that you say he used
his own daughter to lure one of them into the car and to take them captive?

MELVIN: Yes. According to the report, he used his own daughter to
lure Gina into his car. And again, Gina is the same young girl that went
to the same school as his daughter. He knew this family.


MELVIN: In fact, we talked to a gentleman earlier that was with the
city of Cleveland at the time and told us the 54-year-old who has been
charged here, at one point he was helping look for the missing girls. He
was part of the search party.

SHARPTON : Of girls that he hadn`t in fact abducted.

Let`s bring in noted criminologist Casey Jordan.

Casey, is there any way to explain a mind that can do such a thing?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Not in the terms that you and I can
understand it. At the most simple level, this man has not like you and
mer. I mean, as more details come out, we will understand the depth of
this. We also learned today that the two brothers who were initially
arrested with Ariel Castro have been released. They happened to be with
him when he was arrested so they were taken into custody for questioning.
But now, it looks like he acted 100 percent alone over the past 11 years.

SHARPTON : But how can one man hold three women in three different
rooms for ten years?

JORDAN: Well, two things, physical isolation and social isolation as
well as a certain amount of psychological isolation from his family.
Remember, almost nobody ever went into the house. We only have a few
reports that people went in and never beyond the living room.

Most important would be the way that the women were treated when
initially when they were abducted, probably tortured, beaten, raped,
developing stock home syndrome which can set him within a number of days.
So, that even if they were in the house, they would be so brainwashed that
even if they heard a noise upstairs or thought there were visitors, they
would be in fear for their lives and fear for their family`s life and never
cry out. This is the sort of isolation that would lead them to be
prisoners in their mind, not just physically chained to the basement.

SHARPTON : Just a minute.

Craig, there`s activity I`m hearing at the house, at the captor`s

MELVIN: Yes, Reverend. I`m going to step out of the way. I don`t
know if we can show you what is happening in two houses. First of all,
this first house -- this is new to us today. Until today, we had not seen
members of the FBI evidence team going into this house. But as you can see
right now, you see some folks wearing those white clean suits, as they are
called, going into that house. There`s also been a canine whose been
walking around the house as well.

We are still at this point trying to figure out how this house is
connected to the investigation. We did hear during the news conference,
law enforcement did say that this is a continuation of the search to secure
evidence. But it`s that third house down there, that White House, that`s
the primary house. That is where Castro allegedly kept those three women.
We have seen over the past 30 minutes, we have seen of the FBI evidence
team actually taking bags of evidence from the house. That`s the first
time that we`ve seen that today. So again, it appears as though the
investigation here at the scene is also ongoing.

SHARPTON : Now, let`s bring in Cleveland`s city councilman Brian

Councilman, you`ve actually been with the -- some of the family today
as the victims have been coming me?

myself and councilman (INAUDIBLE) were at the Dejesus` family home when she
arrived. A huge welcome home from the community and her family.

SHARPTON : What was it like there? I mean, this is unimaginable, I`m
sure, to those in the neighborhood and to the family members. Try to
describe as best you can the mood and the feeling there with the people
that are family and friends and neighbors of this young lady missing ten

CUMMINS: It was incredible. I mean, first of all, you know, both the
Berry and Dejesus families have been having vigils upon vigils throughout
this ten-year, eleven-year period. So there`s a lot of community members,
pastors, police, businesses, the police for the second district here.
There`s been a lot of people involved in supporting the family for this
whole decade. So they were all there today. There are probably over 200
people there day.

It was very emotional. It was a little chaotic. You know, we are
dealing with highly charged emotions. So, we are dealing with the family
members. We tried to keep it at a minimum in terms of who had contact with
Gina. I did not speak with her. I spoke to only family members. We were
being very respectful of that and family members gave some speeches to the
community as we did as well. But very emotional, as you can imagine.

SHARPTON : From the family members, did you develop any kind of
profile of the type of person Gina was before all of this? I mean, what
could you share with our viewers about Gina or family members that you
talked to or what you learned about Gina from them?

CUMMINS: Well, you know, obviously very head strong and strong woman.
Even when she was abducted, you know, the reports at the time from the
family, obviously other than disbelief was that she was a very strong-
willed young woman. And I don`t think the ten years has diminished that.
That`s strengthened her. Obviously they needed that. All of these women
needed that to get through this ordeal.

It`s really quite unbelievable. So, you know, that aspect of just
inner strength and there`s a lot of faith within this community as well.
Their prayers have been answered. They are just ecstatic relative there
being alive. Some of the family members, you know, there has been some
growing concern about what the process from this point on is, you know, the
physical and the mental duress that they were held under, what it`s going
to take for them to overcome that. But they are very confident in the
support that they`ve received from the community. And I think they feel
that they are going to be OK with the help of the community.

SHARPTON : Now, let me come back to you, Stacy -- Casey, I`m sorry.
Casey Jordan.

The conditions in the house, listen to this. The police chief and
others telling us about the conditions in the house. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have confirmation that they were bound and
there were chains and ropes in the home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Were these women ever allowed outdoors,
to your knowledge?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very rarely. They were released out in the
backyard once in a while.


SHARPTON : Chains, ropes.


SHARPTON : Very rarely let out of the house. Maybe in the backyard
once in a while.

JORDAN: Which is why everybody is so shocked that no one in the
surrounding area, none of the neighbors could know about this. But even
the reports from neighbors saw the little girl playing in the backyard.
Ariel Castro said, this is my girlfriend`s daughter. And nothing that
would really ever raise somebody`s suspicion to the point of calling

People have relatives over, people have family over. There was
nothing noticed. As far as we know, no neighbors have reported screams on
the outside. Again, it`s the psychological imprisonment. That is
Stockholm syndrome which would keep them imprison in the house. What I
most interested in is what exactly happened on Monday that would make that
one young woman, Amanda Berry, decide and break from that psychological
bond and pound on that door. Was she physically shackled and got out or
did she finally just wake up and say, I`ve got to get out of here?

SHARPTON : That is amazing that after all of this Stockholm syndrome
and all, for whatever reason, she reached out and someone was there. I
don`t care what they say about him. That helped her do that and was able
to assist in this escape.


SHARPTON : It`s an amazing story.

JORDAN: It is. And those two neighbors that really -- it warned us
to think that people will get involved and the need to bystander off this.
To think that Charles Ramsey and another man, Angel Cordero, I think his
name is, rushed to that door and broke it down and helped her out. It
could have gone another way if nobody responded to her screams.

SHARPTON : Craig, you were at the press conference today. Tell us
about the aspect that we heard around this.

MELVIN: You know, one of the things that I think was most interesting
out of that news conference, Reverend Al, is you know, that the three
Castro brothers who were charged, Ariel Castro, the 52-year-old who he says
is the ring leader, the mastermind, if you will, and then you had his two
brothers, Onil and Pedro Castro. And initially they were -- the thinking
was that all three of them would be charged with rape and kidnapping.

We found out at the news conference, at the beginning in fact, that it
would just be the 52-year-old Castro. It would just be Ariel Castro who is
charged with kidnapping and rape and the other two would not be charged
with anything. In fact, apparently, there`s some misdemeanor bench
warrants that they are going to take up tomorrow.

But, so, essentially, what you have here, according to the police, you
have in addition to the three women living in that house, two brothers who,
at least according to the police, had no idea what was going on and that is
something that hopefully over the next few days we start to hear a little
bit more about precisely how that was something that was able to happen.

SHARPTON : Councilman, how does one understand that this could go for
ten years, with police and others, how is this explainable to the average
person watching this?

CUMMINS: Well, frankly I don`t know if it is. I will tell you a
little bit about the physical site, though, that the backyard of this
property actually backs out to a commercial property. So for those asking
why nobody would have seen the backyard, it backs out to a commercial
parking lot. So you don`t have a lot of physical activity out there with

Also, the property just to the west of the house, as we saw in the
shot, would be that greenhouse. That property and the property next to it
is vacant. Now, I took over this ward three years ago and we inventoried
those properties that are boarded along with about 500 and other
properties. In that three-year period that I`ve been in office for this
ward, we have demoed about 160 properties. We sold about 60 to private

These properties are on our inventory, but it should be stated that
the back of the property and west side of the property were really not in
view to anyone. And that could potentially explain the unique
circumstances relative to no one being able to really catch this.

MELVIN: Rev., can I jump in I have a quick question for the
councilman. Is that OK?

SHARPTON : Go ahead. Yes.

MELVIN: Really quickly, how can we explain the disconnect from what
we`re hearing from the neighbors and what the police are saying about 911
calls that were made to police? I`m sure you`ve heard the disconnect. You
got a number of neighbors who said, you know what, I did see something and
I did say something. I picked up the phone and called the cops. We talk
to one neighbor who said the cops came, banged on the door, didn`t see
anything, didn`t hear anything so they left.

CUMMINS: Right. The general question, you know, to answer this is so
many people when they call 911, when they call the general dispatch number,
too often they think it`s just a one-way call and it`s done. So people
don`t follow up.

Frankly, part of the challenge is that if they don`t see a cop car
come after they`ve called, a lot of times and we have over 30-plus
neighborhood groups. If the police car -- if you don`t view a police car
coming for a complaint, you have every ability to call back dispatch and
confirm, what`s going on? Where are you?

MELVIN: So, it sound like you`re saying it`s a good chance that
neighbors may have called the police.

CUMMINS: Neighbors may have called the police and police may have
responded. But there is often a disconnect between the public and the
police. And that is something that we work on all the time relative to the

As I said, too often when someone calls the police, they think it`s a
one-way call. They don`t realize there is a relationship that they can
have. And this is problem that we deal with consistently, calls about loud
noise, parties, abusive issues and the police don`t respond within ten
minutes, half an hour, people go back. So, it is difficult.

SHARPTON : We`ll be following this because, Casey, police are saying
they didn`t get a lot of these calls. So, a lot of this we`re going to
have to sort through.

Craig Melvin, Brian Cummings, and Casey Jordan, thank you for joining
us tonight.

More out of Cleveland when we come back.


SHARPTON : Among the biggest mysteries in the kidnapping in
Cleveland, why did it take a decade to find these women? Were there missed
opportunities? There`s an avalanche of questions mounting. We`ve heard
accounts from neighbors saying they saw suspicious activity at suspect
Ariel Castro`s home.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Last July, another neighbor noticed
another disturbing site there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My granddaughter told me about the naked lady
crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: She said she called the police but they
never came.


SHARPTON : Moments ago, the director of Cleveland`s public safety


evidence that`s been obtained thus far, the statements from the suspect and
the victims, there is no evidence to indicate that any of them were ever
outside in the yard in chains without clothing for any other matter. In
fact, I think the evidence we have obtained thus far indicates that in the
last decade think only known themselves to be outside of the home on two
separate occasions and that was only briefly.


SHARPTON : But there are many questions about why it took so long to
find these women.

Joining me now is Israel Lugo who lived down the house from where the
women were held.

Thank you for coming on the show tonight.


SHARPTON : Israel, despite what police said, you said that your
sister saw something suspicious at the house in 2011 that made you call the
police. What did she say?

LUGO: Well, she come home from work and says that she seen a girl
holding a baby in her arms (INAUDIBLE) or asking for help or something like
that. She came over terrified. She was shaking. So, I went to the house.
I walked it out. I couldn`t see because there was boards and (INAUDIBLE)
to the house. So, when I came back home I immediately called the police.
They said they would send a car when they could. But minutes go by, they
send a cruiser pounds on the door really hard, at least 20 times. Maybe
five minutes. There was no response, (INAUDIBLE) the officer got back in
their car and went on their way.

SHARPTON : So you called the police, the police came, a cruiser
eventually came, they pounded on the door 20 times and then went away.
You`re absolutely positive? Because police say they have no record of

LUGO: I`m absolutely positive. We`re neighbors. We have corrupt and
we are not crooks. You know what I`m saying? (INAUDIBLE). Don`t get me
wrong, all cops aren`t bad and you`ve got the good ones and bad ones.

SHARPTON : There`s no doubt in your mind that something was going on
there. Am I right?

LUGO: Yes, sir. That`s right. Two, three times, you know what I`m
saying, that people have called and only one time come by. It`s like, you
think you know your neighbor and you really don`t know your neighbor.

SHARPTON : Yes. Israel Lugo in Cleveland, thank you for being with
us tonight.

Joining me is Congresswoman Marcia Fudge who represents Cleveland as
well as chairs the congressional black caucus.

Congresswoman, thank you for joining us.

REP. MARCIA FUDGE (D), OHIO: Thank you so much for having me,

SHARPTON : The police deny neighbors made these calls. Do you have a
concern over how this investigation played out over ten years?

FUDGE: Certainly I am concerned. There are many, many questions that
need to be answered. But the good thing that is happening right now in
Cleveland as a result of so many other mishaps with police is that the
federal justice department is in Cleveland as we speak, looking at the
practices, looking at what has been going on this department for a very
long time.

This department has had a history of excessive abuses and excessive
handling of prisoners and defendants. I mean, we have a Sewell case where
it took us how many years to find that this person who had killed 11 women
had been hiding and the playing psych all of these years and there were
many calls made to the police department about their situation. And we
have found over the years that missing persons cases are not always given
the kind of attention in the city that we think they should have,
especially as it relates to women who live in poor neighborhoods. And so,
there are many, many questions that need to be answered.

SHARPTON : Now, you brought up about poor neighborhoods. The
question of class and nationality has certainly been raised by some here.
Do you think that has anything to do with how police may have been given
priority or not? Would they have done the same in a more wealthy

FUDGE: Well, I certainly can`t answer that question 100 percent
positive but I would suggest to you that there is less attention given in
poor neighborhoods. If you just think about, go back against this whole
situation. Those women, even though missing persons reports have been
filed, were really not been sort after because they were poor, many of them
lived on the streets, their families were poor, and so, it was not a top

You look at the young woman Michelle who was in this very house where
these three young women were miraculously saved who her family said she was
a missing person but the police said to her, don`t worry about her, she
just walked away from you.


FUDGE: How many people would believe that their own family members
walk away. But had she been in another neighborhood, it is my belief that
they would have handled it much differently.

SHARPTON : Now, when you say just walked away, they, in effect, tried
to argue with the family that she was a run away and had not been abducted,
where in fact, we found out she has been abducted, those are the kinds of
things that we are hearing from people in Cleveland that disturb them on
how the police handled some of this.

FUDGE: And the other thing that you have to think about, Reverend Al,
is that this house was in a neighborhood with boarded up homes, where
people couldn`t see what was going on. It was in a poor neighborhood. So
it was easy for them to ignore what may have been going on but in addition
to that, when you have lots of vacant houses, you don`t have people who are
looking at what their neighbors are doing.

You don`t have people who see the comings and goings of people because
people are just there trying to make it, trying to take care of themselves.
And so, there`s no real sense of neighborhood either. But if, in fact, the
neighbors did call the police and they did not respond appropriately,
there`s going to be, you know, a high price to pay.

SHARPTON: Congresswoman Marcia Fudge, thank you so much for your

FUDGE: Thank you, Reverend Al. My pleasure.

SHARPTON: We`ll be right back.


SHARPTON: Today, the republican smear machine was in high gear with
another hearing on the deadly attack on our consulate in Benghazi.
Republicans don`t care that an independent review board has already looked
into that tragedy that left four State Department officials dead. Over at
FOX, this was the big story of the day.


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Here we go, everybody. And good morning. This
could be the day we get answers.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: And we begin with this FOX News alert. A brand-new
hearing on the Benghazi terror attack.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: FOX News alert out of Washington where the search
for truth about the Benghazi terror attack is now under way.


SHARPTON: FOX News alert? All spent all the time in the land of
conservative fairytales. Benghazi is that pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow. It`s a chance to attack President Obama while also attacking a
potential front-runner in 2016.


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Do you expect Secretary Clinton to either have read
or to be briefed about that cable?

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: She is as close as you can get to Secretary

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It must be signed off by the secretary of state.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: At 2:00 a.m., you had a phone conversation with
Secretary Clinton?


SHARPTON: This has nothing to do with the facts or the truth.
Republicans and their allies at FOX are just interested in distorting the
President`s record on terror and hiding their own. Today we learn that
former Vice President Dick Cheney just made a stunning comment about the
Benghazi attacks, which happened on September 11th, 2012.

Cheney said, quote, "When we were there on our watch, we were always
ready on 9/11, on the anniversary." They were always ready on 9/11, the
anniversary? What about 9/11, the actual day? Were they ready then?
Republicans are busy trying to exploit this most recent tragedy but they
need to remember the truth about the other.

Joining me now is Washington, D.C., Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton who
was in today`s hearings. And Joy Reid, managing editor of the
Thank you for joining me.


SHARPTON: Congresswoman, what`s your reaction to that comment from
Dick Cheney in light of everything you`ve heard from Republicans today.

NORTON: I must say, he ought not mention 9/11. Because when 9/11 was
attacked, you will note that the Democrats did not rushing in to get behind
fresh blood. They tried to find out what we could do to make the next
attack from happening. Yes, we wanted a review of what happened but we
didn`t spend our time, perhaps we should have spent more time trying to
find out why they weren`t prepared for 9/11.

Reverend Al, do understand that nobody on our committee is given a
pass to the administration and not having been better prepared but it`s not
as if we didn`t happen to have a professional report by a veteran of the
State Department, of a career official, and a former chief of staff. That
was a scathing report. What are we doing back here? We had Benghazi one.
That was with Susan Rice. Now we have a Benghazi too with Hillary Clinton?
Not Benghazi.

SHARPTON: You were part of a hearing today, are you hearing anything
new here? I mean, is there anything that justifies this other than some
political posturing and, as you say now, trying to make Hillary Clinton the
main target?

NORTON: Reverend Al, the buildup to this hearing, almost a full
week`s buildup for while I thought they would have trailers before we got
there and then what`s the big deal here? I have dare anybody who covered
that hearing to tell me what he heard. For example, Mr. Hicks, who was not
on the ground, not in Benghazi but in Tripoli said he was stunned to hear
the so-called talking points from Susan Rice that said that it looked like
it was a spillover from all of the -- all of the concerns that had been
bubbling over about attacks on Muslims and so forth, verbal attacks on
Muslims. He was stunned.

Well, he may have been stunned but General Petraeus, national security
adviser all looked at those talking points. They, in fact, extracted the
words al Qaeda, the security adviser said, or General Petraeus said because
they did not want to give away how they were doing the investigation.


NORTON: But everything else was left the way it was. I have to tell
you, Reverend Al, I didn`t learn anything new and it certainly betrayed the
notion of this big buildup that we would going to have a colossal
revelation that we haven`t had before.

SHARPTON: Joy, this big build-up, you know, conservative are still
trying to drum up Benghazi into Watergate. Something that they started
doing almost immediately. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: As bad as Watergate was, because it broke the trust
between the President and the people, no one died. This is more serious
because four Americans did in fact die.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Somebody the other day said to me, this is as bad
as Watergate. Well, nobody died in Watergate.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: This is an administration that is practicing now
serial deception, this is like Watergate.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: To get to the bottom of it, like we did in
Watergate and --


SHARPTON: I mean, Watergate? I mean, are they serious?

JOY REID, MANAGING EDITOR, GRIO.COM: By the way, that third guy that
talked in that montage Rudy Giuliani moved the command center for anti-
terrorism response in New York City into the World Trade Center after the
World Trade Center have been a terrorist target in the past. So, talk
about intelligence. There isn`t a lot to go around. We have the Bush
administration. Bin Laden determined to attack inside the United States.

There was a huge, massive intelligence failure. They got that August
-- and as Congressman Norton made the point, when those massive
intelligence failures happened, the response is to investigate it and find
out where the failures were. But think and wait for a second about what is
that Republicans are really alleging at the end of the day. They are
alleging and what really is 9/11 trutherism.

SHARPTON: You`re right.

REID: Not something to Watergate. This is trutherism. They are
saying that the White House and our Pentagon and our State Department
refused to dispatch military protection for our own diplomats.
Essentially, let them die on purpose, did it on purpose, deliberately
refused to put special operation forces in there because they knew al Qaeda
was attacking our compound in real-time, they knew with al Qaeda, and they
didn`t want that to hurt the president`s re-election.

That is the allegation. It is so scoreless and so crazy that is on
the level of 9/11 trutherism where in people say that George W. Bush
deliberately allowed 9/11. That`s what they are saying. That is just a
squirrel charge. And in the throw in, this is also Watergate, this is
Republicans desperately looking for a scandal in what has been a scandal-
free administration. There were definite area, this was a scrambling
frantic response to an attack that was coming, when a series of attacks
were happening around the world because of that video that was -- and so,
yes, the response --

SHARPTON: At the same time, there were things going on all over the

REID: So you can investigate it. But to go to a 9/11 truther, this
is Alex Jones territory. This is unbecoming of Congress.

SHARPTON: Delegate Norton, the fact is that this allegation, not only
was it somewhere out in Fantasy Island, Watergate was about a political
intrusion initiated by those that were involved. This was not based on
some foreign power or individuals making a move. It is just outrageous
even to bring Watergate up even in the same sentence even their

NORTON: Of course it is. And the notion of, quote, "cover-up," is
based upon the uncertainty with the intelligent officials as to whether it
was a terrorist attack. Now, ever so delicately, was on a couple of days
with president himself was on television news.


NORTON: .terrorist attack. How is that a cover-up?

SHARPTON: Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, and Joy Reid, thank
you both for your time.

NORTON: Thank you.

REID: Always a pleasure.

SHARPTON: Ahead, why Rush Limbaugh made the hopping mad today. He`s
in a huge battle with his boss and -- may come out the losing.

And also hope and heroism in Cleveland. The redemptive of Charles
Ramsey. Stay with us.


SHARPTON: Ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Why we can all
learn from the hero who rescued Amanda. Ahead.


SHARPTON: Did Rush Limbaugh cost the company that owed his radio show
millions of dollars? The boss says, so. In a call with investors, Cumulus
CEO Lew Dickey reported $2.4 million in losses this year alone and said,
quote, "We`ve had a tough go at it last year. The facts are indisputable
regarding the impact certain things have had on ad dollars." The certain
things he was referring to are those infamous comments by Rush Limbaugh
last year.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: What does it say about the
college coed Susan Fluke who goes before a Congressional Committee and
essentially says that she must be paid to have sex? What does that make
her? It makes her a slut, right? It makes her a prostitute.


SHARPTON: After that, advertisers fled and now a new report says, 48
of the 50 top advertisers refuse to include Rush Limbaugh show in their
commercial bias. So how bad is the trouble for the brush? The boss of the
Republican Party?

Joining me now is Joe Madison. Thanks for coming on the show.


SHARPTON: Joe, is this the beginning of the end for Rush Limbaugh?

MADISON: Well, it certainly says that this is consumer-driven.
There`s no air fan -- it. And look, the number one consumers, particularly
products, advertisers put on radio are what? Women. You just simply can`t
insult an entire population in this country and not expect a backlash.
Number two --

SHARPTON: Well, it`s interesting you said that. Before you get to
number two. Because let me play for you what Rush said his advertising
troubles come from. You`d be interested in this.


LIMBAUGH: FOX has been number one for a long, long time. And they
still weren`t giving a majority of the media buyers because the media
buyers that advertising agencies are young women, fresh out of college,
liberal feminist who hate conservatism. These are things we have to
overcome on this, we have fight that battle every day here anyway, because
these little sniveling jerks are out there trying to scare advertisers
still goes on.


SHARPTON: Little liberal women snibbling jerks is what he calls them.

MADISON: Well, can you imagine how many conservative women use birth
control? I mean, come on, Rush. You know, think about this. Number two,
I mean, first off, just number one, conservative women use birth control.
Let`s just face that. Number two, when a president or a CEO of a company
as large as Cumulus talks to investors, people understand that is serious.


MADISON: It`s not hyperbole.

SHARPTON: No, he`s talking to investors.

MADISON: These are investors and you have to be factual. So, that
means that they have researched this. So your question is, is it the
beginning of the end? I think that you will not only see more advertisers
leaving but, get this, even nonprofit organizations that have public
service announcements, these are -- this is free time. They don`t want
even free time on the Limbaugh shows.

SHARPTON: Well, let me tell you, Joe, he is even, he is not helping
his cause any. He`s even found a way to connect the tragedy in Ohio to
both welfare and President Obama. Listen to this.


LIMBAUGH: Hawaii 5-0s premise last night was kidnapped girls. Held
until they were 18 and then let go or killed. Well, always killed. By a
couple doing it for the welfare benefits. Now, I don`t know -- I couldn`t
help but make the connection. Three brothers but not related to the three
women have been arrested in Cleveland, which voted Obama. Not that that`s
got anything to do with anything.


SHARPTON: I`m sure advertisers loved being identified with that kind
of insanity.

MADISON: You see, insanity. And we don`t mean it professionally
because neither of us are psychiatrists but --

SHARPTON: And the rhetoric is insane.


MADISON: Yes. The rhetoric is definitely insane. And think about
this. There has been absolutely no one, no one that in all of broadcasting
that has made that kind of connection. It is absolute irresponsible.
You`re getting ready to talk about a man who was a hero, who cares whether
he was a republican, a democrat, Rush can`t even substantiate these
accusations that he`s making, is total irresponsibility and, quite
honestly, you know, I think it`s all caught up with him.

He has insulted the folks in Boston, he has now insulted these people
who are gone -- the families and the folks who have gone through this
tragedy and then he then tries to now drag the President into it --

SHARPTON: And welfare.

MADISON: And welfare. So it`s always going there. Double entendre.
Double entendre. And he`s a master at it but I think it`s catching up with

SHARPTON: Joe Madison, thanks for your time tonight.

MADISON: Thank you, Reverend.

SHARPTON: How the man next door became a hero. The story of Charles
Ramsey is next.


SHARPTON: The dramatic story from Cleveland has shown us that an
ordinary man, even an imperfect man can be a hero. Charles Ramsey was the
neighbor who heard Amanda Berry screaming from the next door and who rushed
to help. His dramatic description of the rescue has become a national


CHARLES RAMSEY, RESCUED AMANDA BERRY: I came home, I was in my living
room eating my Big Mac and we hear this girl going nuts on the door. So, I
pried the door open so she could climb through there. You can`t open the
door completely. He had it locked some kind of way. She had to climb
through the bottom.


SHARPTON: Charles Ramsey is a hero, no doubt about it. But today the
smoke and gun website reports that Mr. Ramsey is a convicted felon with a
history of domestic violence, ending about a decade ago. NBC has not
confirmed that but we do know that Mr. Ramsey, what he did do this day,
this week. We don`t know what he did years ago but we know what he did
this week. We know what he did when he became famous for doing the right


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Do you have any idea of the attention that you`re
getting around the world right now?

RAMSEY: I don`t want it nor looking for it, bro. That`s why when
they keep saying, I`m a hero, let me tell you something, I`m American, I`m
a human being. I`m just like you. I work for a living. There was a woman
in distress. So why turn your back on that? My father would have whooped
the hell out of me if he found that I would cowered out.


SHARPTON: He didn`t cowered out. But we`re starting to hear some
mock Mr. Ramsey`s hairstyle. He did a word that she was unshaven or ate it
at McDonalds on the way he speaks. It`s enough. He should be given credit
for what he did. He kicks in a door to rescue a young woman and some are
criticizing his diction?

I tell you what, those young women were held prisoner for ten years
and during that time many better dressed people drove by that house until
Charles Ramsey heard her voice cry out for help. That is all it matters
and he is a hero.

Thanks for watching. I`m Al Sharpton. "HARDBALL" starts right now.


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