IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

The Ed Show for Sunday, May 12th, 2013

Read the transcript to the Sunday show

May 12, 2013

Guests: Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Bob Schrum, E.J. Dionne, Nina Turner, Lena
Taylor, Charniele Herring

ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: And a former Bush secretary of defense sets the
record straight and comes forward and has some interesting words to say
about Hillary Clinton. This is THE ED SHOW. Let`s get to work.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at the mouth on this one.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZ.: I would call it a cover-up.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIF.: I think that`s nonsense.

SCHULTZ: It just doesn`t seem like there is a cover-up.

FEINSTEIN: And I think the American people will think it`s nonsense.

MCCARRICK: I would call it a cover-up in the extent that there was willful
removal of information.

FEINSTEIN: Our intelligence committee will have a report and I hope we
will put some of these things to rest.

SCHULTZ: It`s really about one thing and one thing only.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary Clinton.

FEINSTEIN: And my concern is when Hillary Clinton`s name is mentioned 32
times in a hearing --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone knows this is just a partisan witch hunt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is a very mean and hurtful thing for my colleague
to suggest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton`s not a target. President Obama`s not
a target.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, that`s a dandy fish.


SCHULTZ: Well, Darrell Issa is on a fishing expedition. I think he`s
going to get skunked. You know, there`s a real bad case of Benghazi fever
going around in this country, and right now it seems like the only people
who have it are conservatives for some reason. You know, you can`t tell me
that the driver of this story, the big driver of this story and these
congressional hearings, it`s only about four dead Americans.

Of course, anytime we lose servants across the world, it`s a horrible
thing, like 4,000 in Iraq, but I think the Benghazi thing is nothing more
than a Republican effort to smear Hillary Clinton and the Obama

And the proof is in the Sunday morning talk shows this morning. John
McCain comes out complaining about, what, a government cover-up?


MCCAIN: They`re in the midst of a presidential campaign, the narrative by
the Obama campaign is that bin Laden is dead, Al Qaeda is on the run, not
to worry about anything, and here comes this attack on Benghazi.

For the president`s spokesman to say that, well, there was only words of
technical changes made in those e-mails is a flat-out untruth. I like Mr.
Carney. But that`s just not acceptable for the president`s spokesman to
say that to the American people when we now know, any reference to act of
terror, any reference to Al Qaeda were removed from those talking points
and it was done at a deputy`s meeting just before Susan Rice --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you call this a cover-up?


SCHULTZ: But what did President Obama say? We`ll get to that in a moment.

McCain also wasted no time in going after the former secretary of state.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you blame Hillary Clinton?

MCCAIN: I think that the secretary of state has played a role in this --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think she had a role in those e-mails?

MCCAIN: She had to have been in the loop in some way, but we don`t know
for sure. But I do know that her response, before the Foreign Relations
Committee, who cares -- remember when she said, who cares how this
happened? in a rather emotional way. A lot of people care, I say with
respect to the secretary of state.

SCHULTZ: So in a course of just a few minutes, John McCain went after the
president and Hillary Clinton.

Meanwhile, Republicans are also attacking Ambassador Thomas Pickering.
Pickering put together the State Department report on Benghazi, on that
attack, but it wasn`t good enough for the Republicans.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The accountability review board report was not a
substitute for adequate congressional oversight. And there were already
questions raised; I have respect for ambassador Pickering, but there were
already questions raised, for example, Eric Nordstrom said that there were
key decision-makers that weren`t interviewed by the ARB.

Mark Thompson, who is a top counterterrorism official asked to be
interviewed by the ARB; was not. I was surprised today to hear that they
did not probe Secretary Clinton in detail, because obviously she was the
decision-maker at the State Department.

SCHULTZ: Well, there`s two sides of the story. Luckily for America,
Senator Dick Durbin was standing by to set the record straight.

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Thomas Pickering appeared on your show this morning. I
wish he would have appeared at the hearing last week. He asked to be
there. He should have been there. He`s the most respected diplomat in
Washington. He, together with Admiral Mullen, went through a lengthy
review of the security aspect of this.

They came up with a recommendation for changes, which were accepted by
Secretary Clinton and President Obama. Unfortunately, this has been caught
up in the 2016 presidential campaign, this effort to go after Hillary

The reason she wasn`t interviewed was she didn`t have any direct-line
responsibility for the decisions that were made. But they want to bring
her in, because they think it`s a good political show. And I think that`s

SCHULTZ: Darrell Issa, the guide of this fishing expedition, appeared on
"Meet the Press" this morning. He was sitting alongside Ambassador
Pickering, who was not impressed with the congressman`s misinformation.

DARRELL ISSA: Now, ambassador Pickering, his people, and he refused to
come before our committee --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) get to Ambassador Pickering --

ISSA: We have it in writing, we have White House correspondence. It may
not have been the ambassador`s decision, but it was the White House`s
decision. That has been reversed. We`re inviting him on Monday, along
with Admiral Mullen to come, to go through, with his papers, a private

PICKERING: I said the day before the hearings, I was willing to appear, to
come to the very hearings that he excluded me from. The White House told
me --


ISSA: Please don`t tell -- I excluded you?

PICKERING: Well, the majority -- we were told the majority said I was not
welcome at that hearing; I could come at some other time.

SCHULTZ: This is typical Darrell Issa. You see, he is, of course, head of
the House Oversight Committee, and they are very selective in who steps
forward to give testimony.

You might remember when Issa invited an all-male panel to talk about
women`s health issues. Sandra Fluke was off to the side; she was never

Formally, I think former Defense Secretary Robert Gates made the most
relevant point of all of this today. Gates said Benghazi critics had a
cartoonish impression of military capability.

standing by in the Middle East, despite all the turmoil that`s going on.

Getting somebody there in a timely way would have been very difficult, if
not impossible. To send some small number of special forces or other
troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the
threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually
going on, on the ground, I think would have been very dangerous.

And personally, I would not have approved that, because we just don`t --
it`s sort of a cartoonish impression of military capabilities and military

SCHULTZ: So there you have it. Who do we believe? I mean, we`ve got
different players on all sides, don`t we? Getting help to Benghazi would
have been close to impossible.

Gates also blew up the whole talking points controversy. Here`s what he
had to say about former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton.

GATES: I worked with Secretary Clinton pretty closely for 21/2 years. And
I wouldn`t want to try and be somebody to -- trying to convince her to say
something she did not think was true.

BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS HOST: You don`t think she would do that?


SCHULTZ: The direct question is, do you think Hillary`s lying? Mr. Gates
says, no, that`s not Hillary. I`ve been around her long enough to know

Here`s the bottom line. It`s like two corporations. One corporation buys
another corporation, OK? And we`ve got to get the press release correct,
because we certainly don`t want to offend anybody. I think there`s a
little bit of that here with the State Department and the CIA.

If it`s a terrorist attack called out there, there`s going to be criticism
of the CIA, why didn`t we know that this was coming? If it`s not worded
properly, there`s going to be criticism spread everywhere.

But here is the bottom line. You take out Hillary Clinton, you have a
whole different story. You have a whole different modus operandi for the

Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question: are Republicans using Benghazi to hurt Hillary Clinton`s chances
in 2016? Text A for yes, text B for no, to 67622. You can always go to
our blog at We`ll bring you the results later on in the

Joining me tonight, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, editor part owner and publisher
of "The Nation" magazine; Bob Shrum, professor of public policy at NYU and
contributor for "The Daily Beast" and "Washington Post" columnist, E.J.
Dionne. Great to have all of you with us tonight. Best panel on Sunday is
right here.

Katrina, Darrell Issa, they have had nine hearings on this. Now he wants
to take Mr. Pickering to testify behind closed doors, give deposition
behind closed doors.

What`s wrong with Mr. Pickering coming out and talking to everybody, like
all the other folks did?

MAGAZINE: Nothing wrong. I think today what we saw on these Sunday talk
shows was, again, what we`ve seen over the years, which is a great
disconnect between what the elite, the politicians inside the beltway are
talking about, and what people in this country are caring about.

And Darrell Issa and the Republicans are not interested in sober fact
finding. There is a role for sober fact finding, but they are seeking an
issue, they`re ginning up the base, they`re fund-raising on Benghazi, and
they`re driving delusional conspiracies.

There is a lack of history, context, and fact that if we are going to talk
about Benghazi, we deserve. One is that America embassy`s consulates,
military compounds have been targets for many years. Many years. There
were 64 attacks during the George W. Bush era. The Republicans have cut
security at embassies, 300 million, just in 2012.

The other factor is we have a major report by Ambassador Pickering, 29
recommendations. The question is, what do we do now moving forward about
the unaddressed security needs in Libya? How do we fund those?

And sure, let`s have more discussion. But Darrell Issa and the Republicans
are not in a position to do what this country needs in terms of any sober
fact finding.

SCHULTZ: We are down to talking points. That`s where the right wing is
right now.

E.J. Dionne, do you think presidential politics played into these talking
points as the right wing is accusing the Obama administration of backing
off on the word terror, making sure that Al Qaeda was not included in the
talking points, and -- because, of course, that would have made President
Obama look weak going into an election that he couldn`t keep us safe, and
they didn`t have their eye on the ball.

Your thoughts on that?

E.J. DIONNE, "WASHINGTON POST" COLUMNIST: Well, first, Ed, welcome back
and Happy Mother`s Day to Wendy and to Katrina, too. It`s good to have you
on the air again.

Look, I think anything that is issued from the government of the United
States, from an executive agency during an election, the election`s on
everybody`s mind and would it shock me if electoral concerns are in the
back of people`s heads there? No, it wouldn`t.

But I think you`ve got it right when you say that this was primarily a
bureaucratic turf battle between the State Department and the CIA. And one
of the reasons they got shrunk and shrunk and shrunk is the more you took
out, the less you offended one side or the other.

But I think what needs to happen here is the administration is caught with
Republicans determined to do anything they can to make Benghazi a scandal,
a big deal, a conspiracy.

How do you fight against that, when there`s no conspiracy, and when there`s
no fundamental scandal, what you want to do is put everything out fast. I
hope Ambassador Pickering testifies and I hope they insist that he testify
in the open.

I think Hillary Clinton showed the last time that she was a great witness.
I think they have to sort of flood the zone with facts and say, there is no
conspiracy. When four American diplomats are murdered or one American
diplomat is murdered, that`s a big deal.

That`s why they appointed the Pickering-Mullen review. But there is no
sort of hidden agenda here, and they should try to push this aside as fast
as they can.

SCHULTZ: Well, they want Mr. Pickering now to come forward behind closed
doors and give deposition. Because Darrell Issa says he doesn`t want to
make it a show.

Really? They`ve already had nine hearings. The right wing wants this
story to stay around as long as possible, to tarnish Hillary Clinton as a
national candidate. No doubt about it.

Bob Shrum, here`s a clip of Darrell Issa. Why don`t you respond to it.
Here it is.

DAVID GREGORY, NBC HOST: What did Secretary of State Hillary Clinton fail
to disclose or fail to do that makes her a target for you?

ISSA: Hillary Clinton is not a target, President Obama is not a target.

SCHULTZ: Isn`t this an effort to take down Hillary in 2016, Bob? They`re
political opportunists.

BEAST": Sure, look this is all about fear of the Hillary candidacy in 2016
and resentment that President Obama won in 2012. The Republicans have been
down this road before. It`s sort of out of their playbook. They tried
this during the campaign.

Mitt Romney tried the Benghazi attack in the second debate and he got
smashed for it. If you think back 20 years, there was a concocted non-
scandal called Whitewater that was supposed to bring Hillary Clinton down.
It certainly did not.

And I think when she hears all of this, it makes her more likely to run in
2016. Finally, I think if the Republicans believe that the way that
they`re going to beat Hillary Clinton is by banging this drum, then they`re
really crazy.

If you talk to ordinary people about this, they can barely follow any of
the details. And the reason for that is, and it reflects with what both
Katrina and E.J. said, the reason is, there`s nothing there. So you have
to keep grabbing at little pieces of straw, and out of those little pieces
of straw, try to weave something that can convince people, but you can`t.

SCHULTZ: Well, here is a sound bite that the right wing doesn`t lean on at
all. The president, not long after the attack, came out and said this --
now, they`re hung up on talking points. This is the president the day
after the attack.

OBAMA: No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation,
alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for.

SCHULTZ: What is more important when the president uses the word terror or
what`s in a talking point memo, so to speak, that`s going to describe what
people should be saying on talk shows?

Katrina, your thoughts on that? The president the day after used the word

VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, let`s think of the other words being used right now,
like cover-up. E.J.`s right. This was probably in the fog of war with all
kinds of intelligence coming in, a bureaucratic knife fight between the CIA
and the State Department with an election in the backdrop.

But the larger fundamental question is, the United States is intervening in
parts of this world, which are roiling with extremism, with forces that we
don`t have control over.

And if we`re going to engage in those parts, and that`s a fundamental
discussion, which, by the way, the Congress has had little oversight or say
in, in which they could play a useful role, then we need to be prepared
with security, with wisdom about how we engage and intervene, and the whole
issue of terrorism, there`s a semantic fight underway between whether this
was --

SCHULTZ: It goes back to the conversation, do we have a war on terror?
Remember the Bush years.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Exactly, exactly. Here`s the problem, if the Sunday talk
shows continue to be driven by the conservatives, by the right, by John
McCain being the most frequent guest on those talk shows, how do we change
the dynamic in a more productive way, as E.J. suggested?

SCHULTZ: I don`t score at home, but I will tell you, I think it`s 9 out of
12 Sundays McCain has been out on the talking heads. It might have 8 out
of 12, but anybody playing baseball would like to have that home run

Katrina, stay with us along with Bob Shrum and E.J. Dionne. We`re coming
right back. Remember to answer tonight`s question there on the bottom of
the screen. Share your thoughts with us on Twitter @EdShow and Facebook.
We always want to know what you think.

Coming up next, the drums of war are beating loudly again. John McCain
says that we should go to war with, quote, "them."

Senator, who`s them? Can you be serious? I don`t think so.

And nothing says happy Mother`s Day more than gushing about your mistress
on national television. So much for family values, Republicans. We`ll be
right back here on THE ED SHOW. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. We have some breaking news out of
the city of New Orleans, Louisiana.

Police say a shooting at a Mother`s Day parade has left 12 people injured
on Frenchman Street. The Associated Press reports that three people are in
critical condition, three suspects were reportedly involved, but so far, we
do not have a motive. We`ll keep you updated on this story as details
continue to come in.

But now back to our other top stories here on THE ED SHOW. I wish I could
say that the other big topic on the Sunday shows this morning was health
care, Social Security, but it wasn`t. Instead, the Republican hawks spent
this morning reassuring America that we won`t go to war in Syria.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody is calling for military action in Syria. No
one. There are some great options, and Adam, I think you know those, and
we shouldn`t even debate. This is not something we should be arguing

MCCAIN: No boots on the ground, no American boots on the ground.

SCHULTZ: This new amateur video shows mortar explosions near Syria`s
capital, but we don`t know which side is doing the shelling. Senator John
McCain says he knows who the good guys are and we don`t have to worry about

MCCAIN: We can provide them with a safe zone, we can provide them a place
to organize inside Syria, we can give them the heavy weapons that they need

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s them. who`s them.

MCCAIN: I know them, I`ve met them, they`re there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But how do you keep out good rebels and bad rebels?
You`ve got Al Qaeda rebels --

MCCAIN: Thank you. Martha, these are legitimate questions you`re asking.

SCHULTZ: Well, here`s another legitimate question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that caution, particularly in terms of arming
these groups and in terms of U.S. military involvement is in order.

SCHIEFFER: Well, what should we do?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, my question back to you is, why should it be us?

SCHULTZ: And here`s my question. If the United States commits blood and
treasure in Syria`s civil war, will it actually help?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think in all of these countries, including Syria,
Syria, Libya, both artificial creations of colonial powers. For us to
think we can influence or determine the outcome of that, I think, is a
mistake. I thought it was a mistake in Libya, and I think it is a mistake
in Syria. We overestimate our ability to determine outcomes.

SCHULTZ: Let`s return to Katrina vanden Heuvel of "The Nation", Bob Shrum,
and also E.J. Dionne.

E.J., is there any history out there that says, if we go into Syria,
there`s a real good chance we`re going to get a successful outcome? When
are we going to learn our lesson?

SHRUM: Well, I think it was very significant that on the shows today,
advocates of intervention went out of their way to say, well, we don`t
really want to put boots on the ground. And I think that`s because even
the hawks realize that there is no stomach in the country right now for
massive intervention in the Middle East.

And I think you have a lot of people who are, if you will, the old
Republican realists, people like former Secretary Gates, people like
Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, who are
saying, you can`t just intervene a little bit, turn a few dials, and then
get an ideal outcome.

SCHULTZ: Do these Republicans know what they want? A no-fly zone takes
resources to enforce.

Bob, your thoughts on this. Do the Republicans really know what they want
when it comes to Syria, or are they just using it as a crutch to blame
Obama for something else?

SHRUM: First, they`re using it as a crutch to blame Obama, because they`ll
go after him on anything.

Secondly, E.J. is absolutely right. We`re not in a position here where we
can do these things that John McCain seems to think are so easy. I loved
it when he said, we can create a safe zone for them.

What are we going to do? Ask Assad if he`ll just keep his people away?
The fact is McCain has become a bitter old crank who never sees a war he
doesn`t want to get involved in.

I think he`s feeling the pressure from, he doesn`t care about the polls,
but he knows what the polls say. The polls say that Americans don`t want
us heavily involved. So he`s trying to come up with euphemisms and other
ways to talk about our involvement.

SCHULTZ: Katrina, what should our commitment be? What should the United
States do? What can we do? You`ve got hundreds of thousands of people who
have been killed in this civil war; it`s not our war, but what can we do?

VANDEN HEUVEL: What we can do, we can understand that Syria is a
humanitarian nightmare and we can double down on humanitarian aid. But
without a political agreement, without a diplomatic agreement, we won`t be
able to resolve the humanitarian nightmare.

I think President Obama has been rightly cautious. Maybe the use of red
lines was a mistake, but don`t compound that mistake by taking reckless
military action, which he won`t, but he`s been cautious. And I think those
pounding the drum beats for war should be the first to go.

It`s very fortunate, as E.J. said, that the majority of Americans, after
the disaster in Iraq, the loss of human treasure, of treasure, understand
we don`t need more military misadventures to be kind in the Middle East.

So I think President Obama and his secretary of state, John Kerry, are wise
to reenlist and reengage Russia, to bring in the United Nations as best
they can, to work as hard toward a political diplomatic negotiated outcome
that will relieve the humanitarian suffering in that country.

SCHULTZ: You bring up a great point about the Russians. Do we really know
what their intentions are, E.J. Dionne? Are they an honest broker in all
of this?

DIONNE: I don`t think they`re an honest broker, not at this point. I
mean, we really need to push them to pull away from Assad, which seems to
be what we`re trying to do.

I mean, if we want to do anything, it does seem to me we want out, can you,
in any way, strengthen forces in the opposition that might bring about a
more acceptable government after Assad?

But that`s a very tricky thing to do. I think we probably are trying to
figure out how to get arms to the right people, but in a coalition like
this, the anti-Assad coalition, it`s not clear where your arms would end up
and in whose hands would they end up?

We`ve had that happen to us before, where our arms end up in the wrong
hands. And that`s why Obama shouldn`t have drawn a red line, as Katrina
suggested. That creates a real problem. We`d like to strengthen better
forces there, but there are limits on what we can do. That`s why Secretary
Gates said what he said.

SCHULTZ: The president did say red line. But then John McCain says he`s
met them, but he won`t identify them. So I guess in the talk circuit,
there`s all kinds of mistakes going on about this. It is a very complex
situation in Syria. There`s no doubt about it. It`s not our fight, we
don`t have the resources. We have things at home we`ve got to take care

Great to have all of you with us. Katrina vanden Heuvel, Bob Shrum, E.J.
Dionne, thanks so much.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Great to be here.

SCHULTZ: From Cleveland to Camden, and all across the country, the
conversation on violence is missing the mark. Our "Real Talk" panel digs

And the real story behind America`s newest symbol of freedom. Stay with


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

Tonight in "Ask Ed Live" the question is from viewer Bill King (ph).

Will Scott Walker, Chris Christie, John Boehner or Darrell Issa ever agree
to a sit-down to talk with you, Ed?

Well, you know what, I`d love to sit down with each one of them
individually and do an interview, but you have to understand that they
don`t have to talk to me. They`ve got plenty of conservative media out
there, most politicians go where they know they`re not going to be
challenged on issues, and if they are, they give a patented answer.

I would put an invitation out to any one of those gentleman that were
mentioned in that tweet. I would love to sit down and visit with them and
I`d ask them some very basic questions. Medicare, Medicaid, Social
Security, education in this country, health care for all. Why can`t we get

And why is it that they believe, and I believe that the men that you
mentioned, they believe that the middle class needs to serve up a little
bit more and protect the rich.

I don`t think those are tough questions, but for some reason, Republicans
have a hard time answering them.

We got a lot of response on that. I`m going to take some more questions
next week when we`re back here at Saturday at 5 o`clock.

We`ll be right back on THE ED SHOW. You stay right with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. On May 6th, the nation celebrated
the rare happy ending in a decade-long search for three missing women when
Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and also Michelle Knight were found in a
neighborhood in Cleveland, Ohio`s, West Side.

As the healing begins for those three women, many Americans have been
asking, how in the world could this happen? How could these women have
been held hostage for 10 years, just three miles from where they were

The community asked questions about the intensity of the search for these
women. This is a working class community.

The neighborhood where the girls were found is predominantly Hispanic. One
out of every five houses is vacant. Students in the area generally attend
Lincoln West High School, which has a graduation rate of just 46 percent,
which falls below the Cleveland School District`s average of 56 percent.

Neighbors claim to have called police to report suspicious activity at the
home of the women`s accused kidnapper, Ariel Castro. The Cleveland Police
Department denies receiving such calls. Exchanges in a town hall in
Cleveland on Thursday got heated.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a sister that`s missing. And it seems like
Second District doesn`t care. She does drugs, she was doing drugs, but
when she was -- when she did disappear, she had started going to church and
kicking the drugs off. But still, I`m not getting any help for our sister
that`s been missing, none.

SCHULTZ: But police are frustrated as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s 2,900 missing persons a year. I don`t have
that many officers that I can follow up one person, and I would love to.
If I had them, I would gladly do it. But I don`t. Right now I have 21
missing persons still active in my district, OK? So that one (inaudible)
has to handle all 21 cases. So they`re overburdened a little bit.

SCHULTZ: Well, that police officer said it pretty well, don`t you think?

What this story brings to light is an issue that goes far beyond Seymour
Avenue in Cleveland, Ohio.

You see, across the country, missing people of lower socioeconomic status
are less likely to get the resources and attention typically given to
victims from better-off communities.

In 2012, it was reported that more than half the cities with the highest
violent crime rates cut law enforcement budgets. Cities like Oakland,
California, Camden, New Jersey, where boots on the ground are seriously
needed. Republicans love to boast about cuts to the public workforce,
police, firefighters and teachers bear the brunt of budget cuts.

These are public sector jobs, necessary to prevent crimes and respond to
crimes. And they`ve been slashed in neighborhoods that need them the most.

Joining me tonight, our "Real Talk" panel, Ohio State Senator Nina Turner
is with us, Charniele Herring, minority whip of the Virginia House of
Delegates and chair of the Democratic Party of Virginia, and Wisconsin
State Senator, Lena Taylor.

Great to have all of you with us tonight. Thanks for coming back on THE ED

Nina, let me ask you first. Is there a response bias, I guess you would
call it? Do people of color and lower income areas, do they get the same
law enforcement resources that other areas are in town get? Your thoughts
on that?

OHIO STATE SENATOR NINA TURNER: Well, it`s clear, Ed, by your intro, that
certainly they do not. And it is really sad, it is abysmal. And I want to
say that my heart and thoughts and prayers go out to the families of Gina,
Michelle and Amanda.

But it is quite unfortunate and we shouldn`t tolerate it. I mean, right
here in the state of Ohio, for example, the last biannual budget that we
had, the governor slashed local government funds by more than half. We`re
talking about hundreds of millions of dollars that would go to keep police
officers employed.

In Cleveland, in 2011, for example, they swore in 40 cadets and had to lay
them off right after swearing them in, because the mayor of the city of
Cleveland had to adjust his budget by $35 million because of budget cuts.

On the federal level, we need to invest more money in community policing,
Ed, in order to have vibrant communities, we need more training, we need
more accountability, and we need more police on the streets.

We used to have many police centers here in the city of Cleveland, when I
was on the Cleveland city council, but those dollars were cut on the
federal level. We`ve got to bring back the relationship between
neighborhoods and police and make sure that we know that there are no
throwaway neighborhoods.

Just because folks are poor does not mean that they do not deserve the same
high-quality service as anybody else. And we need to have firm
conversations about this and put money towards those efforts.

Lena Taylor, how do we fix it? What should the approach be for

WISCONSIN STATE SENATOR LENA TAYLOR: I think there`s no question that
Senator Turner hit the nail on the head. When you look at justice
reinvestment initiatives, where what we do is create that reconnection with
policing and communities where you target where your needs are, you try to
make sure that you`re looking at what are the triggers.

So, for example, in our state, we lead in the nation in incarceration, and
we know our triggers are mental health, so you have to fund the services
that you need to --

SCHULTZ: You have to fund the services.

TAYLOR: You have to fund the services.

SCHULTZ: And you go through all of these cuts and the attack on public
employees, you know, you`re not going to have the resources to do what
you`ve got to do.

Charniele Herring, how big a fight is this? Why is it that the Democrats
always seem to be willing to resource and it`s always the Republicans --
and I don`t mean to broad brush here, but we`ve got examples in your state
of Virginia, in Pennsylvania, in Ohio, in Indiana, in Michigan and
Wisconsin. It seems like these states have Republicans that just can`t
wait to wait to get to services like this.

That`s true, Ed. What they like to do is talk about big tax cuts. We have
somebody running for attorney general here in Virginia, Ken Cuccinelli. He
just rolled out this huge tax cut.

But localities are saying, wait a minute, if you`re going to do this huge
tax cut, it`s going to cause us to raise our property taxes to keep the
level of services. I`m lucky I`m from Alexandria, Virginia, we have an
excellent police department, but it is what Nina talked about. It is a
matter of resources and priorities.

And if you do not have those resources and priorities set to protect our
children in this nation and in our states, unfortunately, we`re going to
see tragedies like this. And it can be helped, it can be stopped, but
we`ve got to make sure that our party is set in the right direction, so
while it may be a good bumper sticker to say, let`s cut taxes, that has
real life effects. And it affects families.

SCHULTZ: Charniele, do you think there`s a bias in response, neighborhood
by neighborhood, depending on resource?

HERRING: I think -- it appears that way and I do think it`s totally
economic. I did read a report in New York, where there was a response
quicker to a missing woman who was, you know, from a more affluent area
than a woman who was poorer.

But, you know, I hesitate to blame the police, because there is -- this is
my concern. They all want to do a good job. I just spoke with my chief of
police recently. They want to do a good job. And they`re just strapped
for resources.

SCHULTZ: Nina, how big an issue is this going to be in the next election
in Ohio? I mean, this is -- all neighborhoods deserve fair and equal
resources. I mean, it would seem to me that people would understand that.

TURNER: Yes, it`s going to be a very big issue. Just recently here, we
had two Ohio House members introduce right to work. You know, 2011, you
were on the ground here in Ohio, pushing back against a tax against public
sector workers and private sector workers and trying to take away their
collective bargaining rights. You would have thought the GOP learned their
lesson, but no, they did not.

And they were trying to push that same kind of legislation here in the
state of Ohio. It makes no sense.

And we are debating a budget right now that still does not fund local
government funds to the level that we need, to have a rigorous police
department, to have police on the ground who have relationships, saving
communities are about relationships, Ed.

This is going to be a big deal in 2014 and we have to decide in the city of
Cleveland and in the state of Ohio, do we want to live in a city or a
cemetery? Do we want to live in a state that is vibrant for all folks or
one that only takes care of the ultra-wealthy?

The voters of the state of Ohio will have an opportunity to weigh in in
2014, and I believe that they`re going to choose families and futures of
all socioeconomic backgrounds, who deserve to live the American dream.

SCHULTZ: As we`ve reported, there`s been another mass shooting in America
tonight, 12 people have been reportedly injured in a shooting at a Mother`s
Day parade in New Orleans. I`ve got to ask you, Lena Taylor, and both you,
Lena, and Nina, you`re in the middle of the country, Ohio and Wisconsin.

Do your constituents want the federal government to do more on firearms?


TAYLOR: You know, there`s no question that all over the nation, that they
want that. That what we want is to see that there is some effort to try to
address the issues that are affecting communities.

And it has to be balanced. There`s no question about that.

But I don`t think the background checks was going too far. And the fact
that Congress was not able to move in that fashion, even though people all
over have stated that that`s something that they believe is important, and
it frankly, was an easy bipartisan step that should have been made. So
there`s no question that in my community, that`s something people are
concerned about.

SCHULTZ: All right. State Senators Nina Turner and Lena Taylor and also
delegate Charniele Herring, great to have you with us here on THE ED SHOW
tonight. Thank you so much.

Tonight in our survey, I asked you, are Republicans using Benghazi to hurt
Hillary Clinton`s chances in 2016? Ninety-nine percent of you say yes, 1
percent of you say no.

Coming up, Mark Sanford hikes his way into our pretender segment. Find out
why the congressman-elect should not have done an interview on this
particular Sunday. Stay tuned.


SCHULTZ: And in our pretenders segment tonight, the Love Guv Mark Sanford
took a break from the Appalachian Trail to give an exclusive interview on
his return to politics. Good for him. Only FOX News Sunday would
celebrate this very special Mother`s Day with a man who broke his wife`s
heart and wanted your sympathy.

Commenting on his campaign, Sanford described the early hardship of
possibly running against his ex-wife and mother of his children for the
congressional seat.

REP-ELECT MARK SANFORD (R), S.C.: I don`t think there would have been
anything more harmful to our four boys than having a former, you know -- I
mean, a mom and a dad -- still a mom and a dad, but a former husband and
wife run against each other.

SCHULTZ: The most harmful thing he could have manage to his sons would be
an honest election? Sure, much more painful than deserting them and their
mother to carry out an affair, or professing his love to his mistress in
the national media, even calling her his soulmate. Jenny Sanford could
tell you a lot about that herself.

JENNY SANFORD, EX-WIFE OF MARK SANFORD: It ripped me up to think that he
wanted to go be with his lover is just gut-wrenching.

BARBARA WALTERS, ABC HOST: Did he ever call you his soulmate?

JENNY SANFORD: Not to my knowledge.

SCHULTZ: In his campaign, marred by violations of his divorce agreement,
Mark Sanford has reemerged newly engaged to the Argentinian mistress, and
he believes absolved. But if Mark Sanford thinks that he`s a family man,
he can keep on pretending and the Republican Party can keep pretending that
they`re all about family values?


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Labor unions were instrumental in
building this country. They have been the foundation of America`s middle
class. Union workers responded on the attacks on 9/11 and they helped
rebuild what was lost on that day.

Here it is. Standing 1,776 feet tall, One World Trade Center takes its
place as the tallest building in America. This building stands as a symbol
of hope and pride. It`s only fitting that union workers helped put the
last piece on the Freedom Tower.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about those guys from Local 40? They`ll guide it
into place and then bolt it together so it doesn`t go anywhere and below me
here you can see some members of the trade, some union members here`s who
have been so much a part, Savannah, of this building process over the last
61/2 years. There will be applause, there will be tears shed when that
moment is reached in a little while.

SCHULTZ: You know, it is amazing what American workers can do if they are
given the chance. There are thousands of other unfinished projects out
across this country. American roads and bridges are in terrible shape.
Our schools are crumbling and Republicans have blocked every effort to do
anything about it. And this, I think, is utterly embarrassing.

In the month of April, the United States of America created zero
manufacturing jobs. While the rest of the economy you have to admit is
picking up, hey, the news continues to be negative for manufacturers. Over
the past 12 months nearly 10,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost.

Why? Other sectors of the economy are doing well. The service industry.
The financial sector. The energy sector.

What about manufacturing? Everything`s doing well, but you see,
corporations are turning their backs on unions because they don`t want to
pay the wages, and this affects the manufacturing sector. And of course,
tight money on Wall Street.

Here`s one of my favorite charts. When union jobs go away it drags middle
class wages down for everyone. This crusade to kill unions does nothing to
help our nation, and I believe that we cannot rebuild America`s great
American middle class without a recognizing the value of organized labor.

And when you get in a philosophy about, OK what are we going to do to
rebuild the middle class? What`s your philosophy? I`m asking, what`s your
philosophy. My philosophy. Pay people.

Do we have to ship everything overseas? We can do it. We need to
reinstill that heart and desire for America`s economy, that those who have
need to invest in American workers, and we`ll see this economy really take

It takes more than just a formula. It takes a heart, a desire and a
belief. I believe in organized labor. I believe that everybody should
have a voice at what they do in the job place.

Joining me, John Nichols, (inaudible) national correspondent of "The
Nation" magazine.

What`s your philosophy, John?

JOHN NICHOLS, "THE NATION": I hate to tell you; it`s relatively similar.
The fact of the matter I believe that trade unions don`t just make sure
people get paid well but they get decent benefits, they also make sure the
people are trained, and that they get the skills. Especially in the
building trades. I loved watching that completion at --

SCHULTZ: There`s some real symbolism there. Isn`t there?

NICHOLS: Oh, remember, a lot of trade unions died on 9/11. Not just
firefighters and cops who we know about and it`s so important, but also
members of hotel and restaurant employees up in Windows of the World.
Service employees and others.

And I think that this was a heart and soul effort here, but remember, the
reason that these folks could do this job was because in New York, they`ve
got a strong building trades council. They train people, plumbers, pipe
fitters, teamsters, all of these people get special training, laborers so
they`re ready to go do the job and they can do a project that nobody else
can do.

SCHULTZ: Why are we seeing a lack of investment in American workers? I
mean, the numbers are what they are. I mean, you mean this country can`t
add one manufacturing job in the month of April? Zero?

NICHOLS: Look, the problem in America, Ed, right now is that we have moved
toward a paper economy. We`ve got so many people who think that they`re
doing fine, everything`s OK if the stock market goes up a couple points.

But the fact is, that at the end of the day, we`ve seen what happens with
stock market booms and busts and bubbles. What we need is a strong
manufacturing economy that can see us through the ups and downs and see
communities all over this country. Remember, factories help small towns
get through.

SCHULTZ: No doubt. The progressive movement in this country is very well
aligned with labor, very well aligned with the middle class, in your state
of Wisconsin, Paul Ryan recently gave a speech to the American Enterprise
Institute. He said progressivism is "arrogant and condescending".

NICHOLS: Well, I think that Paul Ryan, who comes from a factory town,
remember, he comes from Janesville, Wisconsin, a city that has lost
tremendous number of manufacturing jobs. When he talks about arrogance,
and I`ve known Paul Ryan, I`ve covered him for years. I don`t understand
where he`s coming from on something like that. I think it`s far more
arrogant for a representative from Janesville, Wisconsin, to vote for free
trade deals than make it easier to ship jobs overseas.

I think it`s arrogant for a representative from Janesville, Wisconsin, to
be out of touch with the need for an industrial policy in America that
reinvests in manufacturing.

SCHULTZ: Is he going to be a player in `16?

NICHOLS: Sure he will. He is smart, he is capable, and in many ways he`s
more appealing.

SCHULTZ: But his philosophy is flawed.


SCHULTZ: Because the way he thinks, and the way Wisconsinites are and
folks in the middle of the country where the middle class has been, you
know, rising because of labor, what built this country, he`s not in step
with that. He calls that movement arrogant and condescending?

NICHOLS: Paul Ryan`s hometown didn`t vote for him for vice president of
the United States. That`s an important thing to remember. He happened to
have a pretty well gerrymandered congressional district so he won his seat.
But in the presidential race, he lost his hometown, he lost his home
county, he even his home precinct.

SCHULTZ: John, President Obama wins reelection, the Democrats hold the

Why aren`t we hearing any conversation about the employ free choice act?
It was there in 2008. It`s vanished.

NICHOLS: Look, I think that this, and we should be critical not just of
Republicans but Democrats. We should recognize that I do not think that
Democrats in Washington wrapped their heads around the need to, you know,
shore up the middle class.

And one of the ways to shore up the middle class is to make sure that
people can get good paying union jobs and that they don`t have to claw
their way into union representation, that it can be done easily and

SCHULTZ: John, great to have you with us tonight. Thanks so much.

NICHOLS: It`s a pleasure.

SCHULTZ: John Nichols, Washington correspondent of "The Nation".

That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed Schultz. Happy Mother`s Day, especially you,
Wendy. I love you, honey. We`ll see you at Saturday at 5 o`clock.

I have got five days to go fishing.




Copyright 2013 Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>