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'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Monday, June 24th, 2013

Read the transcript to the Monday show

June 24, 2013
Guests: Ed Markey, Judith Browne Dianis, Vicki Kennedy, Tom O`Neill


Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews up in Boston.

Anyway, we`re up here at Boston`s historic Quincy Market to mark tomorrow`s
special election for the United States Senate. In just a few minutes,
we`re going to be joined by the Democratic candidate, Massachusetts
congressman Edward Markey up here.

But first "Let Me Start" with this. You can tell a lot about someone by
knowing where they`re headed in life. When Edward Snowden went public with
his U.S. intelligence surveillance program, he struck a mixed chord with
the American people. Some on the right joined some on the left to see him
as a hero. Others on the right called him a traitor. Many in the middle
and on the center-left questioned his motives even as they were gladdened
to see light shed on what this country`s doing in the cause of fighting

The question tonight is simpler. Where is he? And what does that tell us
about his purpose, his loyalties, his values, his future?

David Corn is Washington bureau chief for "Mother Jones" magazine and an
MSNBC analyst. And Michael Isikoff is NBC`s national investigative

Here`s what we know about Snowden`s travels as of this moment. He left his
home in Hawaii in May and went to Hong Kong. He stayed until Sunday, when
with the help of Wikileaks, he fled to Russia. That`s where he is still
believed to be. He had reportedly booked a flight to Havana, Cuba, with a
final destination of Ecuador. But Snowden never boarded that plane this
morning, and it`s unclear what his plans really are.

Let`s go to Michael Isikoff, who`s always good at these questions. Where
is Edward Snowden, and where is he headed?


MICHAEL ISIKOFF, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, I was on the conference call,
Chris, with Julian Assange of Wikileaks today, and he said Snowden is in a
safe place and in high spirits.

So look, we -- the U.S. government believes he`s in Moscow. He was thought
to have been -- that he was going to take that plane to Havana. He wasn`t
on it. The seat was empty. Assange would not say where he is, would not
say where he`s headed.

We do know that he`s applied for asylum with Ecuador and Iceland and
possibly other countries. Assange would not say what those other countries

We did -- he did say that -- because the question was asked, his passport
has been revoked, how is he traveling, that he received something called a
refugee document of passage from the Ecuadorian government, sort of shades
of "Casablanca" here.


ISIKOFF: But how far that will take him, where it will take him, we still
don`t know. We do know -- Assange did say, because there was some question
about, how is he traveling, and Assange did say at one point, We paid for
those arrangements -- that is, his flight from Hong Kong.

So he`s clearly embraced Wikileaks here, or Wikileaks has embraced him.
And he`s traveling to governments that are, to say the least, not friends
of the United States.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to David on this because when most people travel, they
have three facts with them. They`ve got money to travel. They`ve got a
passport. And they have a destination. It`s kind of murky here because
even if the Ecuadorian government, for its own strange reasons, wants to
give him a document physically, how do they get it to Hong Kong? A
passport is a piece of paper. It exists, a document. It isn`t some e-

How do they get it to him?? And who`s paying for the trips he`s taking,
basically, around the world here? And third, where do you think he`s going
to end up?

Ecuador is working with Wikileaks. You know, they are harboring Julian
Assange in the embassy in London. So it seems to me that if they`re, you
know, working with Wikileaks and they want to get some sort of travel
document to Snowden, if he`s stuck in the Moscow airport right now, they
probably can find someone at the embassy, somebody to do that.

You know, Wikileaks does have some financial backers. I`m not sure we know
who they are, but clearly, they`re using some of their funds. Michael
Rattner (ph), who works for the Constitution -- the Center for
Constitutional Rights, a civil liberties group in New York City that
obviously has some financial support to keep going, is involved in the

So I have no question that there are people out there who would give money
to Wikileaks to help Edward Snowden get to wherever he wants to get.

At the same time now, we have this diplomatic standoff. We don`t know how
much pressure or what`s really going on between Russia and the United
States in terms of keeping him from leaving Russia. And you know, if he
transits through Havana, from my perspective, I don`t think that`s very
good PR for Edward Snowden.

He`s a guy who talks up, you know, media freedoms and transparency, yet
right now, he`s really relying on the help of countries that have been very
anti-media. Ecuador in particular has had very restrictive press freedoms
and the president there has been basically at war with independent media.

So there are a lot of wrinkles to this very, very dramatic and sort of --
you know, an interesting to watch case that I think is far from over at
this point.

MATTHEWS: Yes, well, let`s take a look what the secretary of state, John
Kerry -- he`s traveling in India right now. Here he`s commenting on the
irony, as you point out, the countries Snowden has chosen to rely on as he
evades justice, if you want to call it justice. Let`s watch.


JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: I wonder if Mr. Snowden chose China and
Russia as assistants in his -- you know, in his flight from justice because
they`re such powerful bastions of Internet freedom. And I wonder if, while
he was in either of those countries, he raised the questions of Internet
freedoms, since that seems to be what he champions.


MATTHEWS: You know, Michael Isikoff, not everybody has -- gets the money
from their friends. They get their money anywhere they can get it.

Is this guy basically on the lam? Is he running so hard, he`ll take help
from anybody, even countries that don`t wish us well, like Russia and
sometimes China, and certainly Ecuador now? Is he just relying on the
kindness of strangers, or is he a person who allies politically with the
countries that are helping him?

It`s a question a lot of Americans would like the answer to.

ISIKOFF: Well, you know, look, there was nothing in what he had said
publicly prior to all this that indicated he had any particular sympathies
for the Chinese government or the Cuban government or the Russian

So look, he has been criminally charged by the United States. One in that
position who does not wish to face American justice would take help from
whoever they could get it.

I think -- he said there was something else -- you know, David mentioned
before that being allied with the Ecuadorians and others who are enemies,
or not exactly friends of press freedom might undercut his credibility.

He said something else today, or at least was quoted as saying something
else today that could also further undermine his credibility a bit. "The
South China Post" posted a story quoting him saying he only took the job as
an NSA contractor so he could get access to NSA secrets and help expose
them. So that does undermine a bit the idea that...

MATTHEWS: Michael...

ISIKOFF: ... having seen the invasions of privacy by the NSA caused him to
become a whistleblower.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me go -- let me go over to Michael and -- let me go over
to David on this. What does that tell you? I`m not sure it tells me
anything. Suppose the guy says, I`m going into some organization to do
espionage on them because my hunch is that they`re doing stuff they
shouldn`t be doing.

Why does that make him less a whistleblower, the fact that he went to the
job with Booz Allen so he could penetrate the NSA? Why is that a bad

CORN: I`m not sure it`s a bad thing. But if his story is, I was doing my
job and I discovered something that was wrong, and therefore, I felt
compelled to release it, that`s different than saying, I`m going to
knowingly sort of lie to get into a position, because he -- you know, he
has to sign a non-disclosure, you know, confidentiality agreement. So he
did all that stuff. So you know, it probably makes it harder for him

I`m not (ph) sure he`s ever going to face trial, if we get to that point,
but a lot of what he`s doing the past few days is not going to help him if
he should reach trial.

And one thing he has to worry about, too, is if he`s getting help -- say
he`s getting help from the Russians right now, you know, are they asking
him for anything in return? That could really change a lot of his legal
standing in the case that the U.S. is going to put against him, too.

So it`s -- he`s in a very difficult position that he put himself in, and
there are a lot of complicated issues here. And you know, he may not even
be able to get out of the Moscow airport for God knows how long.

MATTHEWS: And clearly, the charge some people are making in the press that
he was told by the Chinese if he wanted to get out of Hong Kong, he had to
unload or download his entire stash of information off his computer.

But anyways, this is an interesting case of politics making strange
bedfellows. Here we have Rand Paul, a man of the libertarian right, who`s
been somewhat sympathetic to Snowden. He had a strong warning, however,
for him today. Let`s listen to his change of heart.


SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: For Mr. Snowden, if he cozies up to the
Russian government, it`ll be nothing but bad for his name in history. If
he goes to an independent third country like Iceland and if he refuses to
talk to any sort of formal government about this, I think there`s a chance
that he`ll be seen as an advocate of privacy.

If he cozies up to either the Russian government, the Chinese government or
any of these governments that are perceived still as enemies of ours, I
think that that`ll be a real problem for him in history.


MATTHEWS: What`s so interesting is how people are coalescing. Here`s
Senator Dianne Feinstein, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,
what you might call an establishment liberal Democrat. Here`s her reaction
to what we`re watching.


him caught and brought back for trial. And I think we need to know exactly
what he has. He could have a lot, lot more. It may really put people in


MATTHEWS: And here`s the Republican chairman of the House Intelligence
Committee. It all sounds similarly sympathetic to -- actually,
unsympathetic to the Snowden at this point. Here`s Mike Rogers.


every legal avenue we have to bring him back to the United States. If he
really believes he did something good, he should get on a plane, come back
and face the consequences.


MATTHEWS: You know, Mike Isikoff, it`s beginning to sound like the cops
against the robbers, you know? Everybody who`s in a position of authority
and understanding U.S. intelligence and guarding it is now angry with this
guy. I guess the real libertarian right and the very left on the
Democratic side, the left side, if you will, are still sympathetic with
this guy. It`s an interesting division in loyalties.

ISIKOFF: Can I just say something, Chris, particularly about Senator
Feinstein`s comments because she`s been a hawk on this. She`s a hard-liner
on it.

And yet one of the news that came out of the House Intelligence Committee
hearing last week is that General Alexander, the head of NSA, acknowledged
that the NSA is now reviewing that use of Section 215 of the Patriot Act
for this massive pre-collection of all phone calls in the United States,
which was probably the single most shocking thing that Snowden revealed.

And when pressed on that -- when I pressed the NSA on that as to why they
were doing this review, they said Senator Feinstein, in a closed session of
the Intelligence Committee, asked the NSA to do that. In other words, she
was disturbed enough by what Snowden revealed, even though she would have
been briefed on all this, to request a review and see whether it was really

Couldn`t they just -- couldn`t the NSA just wait for when it had evidence
about possible terror ties of somebody in the United States, and then go to
the phone companies and then get the information, rather than collecting
tens of millions of phone records in the United States, storing it in a
massive database for five years without any evidence of any connection to

So for all her and other hard-liners on the Hill, you know, calling for
Snowden to be fully prosecuted, he has initiated some change within the
U.S. government. And that`s worth noting.

CORN: What`s also interesting here, Chris, is that that was his intent.
He said, I wanted to start a debate. I wanted to get people thinking about
this in the public and on Capitol Hill.

But yet because of all the drama the last few days of his flight and the
human interest story that he`s created himself now by going public -- he
didn`t have to go public, remember. He chose to go public. He has now
made the story more about him than about these great issues that Mike just
talked about and that we were talking about last week and that I hope we
continue to talk about.

The debate now has been sort of muddied up a bit by whether he`s working
with the Russians, where he`s going, what`s happening with Ecuador. And
that`s really because Snowden decided to go public and do all of this in a
very -- in front of the whole world.

MATTHEWS: Well, I`ll say one thing for Edward Snowden. He knows how to
get press. This guy`s traveling around the world like D.B. Cooper or
"Where`s Waldo." We`re going to keep following him around the country.
Check your papers in the morning to see where he is.

Anyway, David Corn, as always. Thank you, Michael Isikoff...

CORN: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: ... the best investigator around.

Coming up, tomorrow`s big Senate race up here in Massachusetts. Tonight,
what the Democrats are doing to protect the Senate and prevent a two-house
takeover by the Republicans come 2014.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, we`re expecting a number of big decisions this week from
the Supreme Court, but today the court passed on a chance to decide on the
constitutionality of affirmative action itself. By a vote of 7 to 1, the
court sent a challenge to an affirmative action program at the University
of Texas back to the lower court, ducking the big question whether
Affirmative Action is itself constitutional and disappointing the Obama
administration and other supporters who wanted to see it upheld.

We`ll be right back.



the United States Senate who are willing to stand up for working people
just like I have. I need folks in the United States Senate who every day
are waking up thinking about the people who sent them there and trying to
figure out, How do I make sure that they are getting a brighter future?
That`s who Ed Markey is! I need Ed Markey in the United States Senate!



MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. We`re up here in Quincy Market in
Boston, Massachusetts, for the big race tomorrow. That was, of course,
President Obama at a recent campaign event for the Massachusetts Senate
candidate Ed Markey, who`s sitting with me right now.

He`s received some heavyweight endorsements that include the president, the
vice president, Bill Clinton, the former president, of course -- he
recently stumped for Markey. And the campaign`s playing now in a big way
his new Web video out today. Let`s watch.

Well, tomorrow night, Ed Markey faces voters right here as Massachusetts
plays host to a rare special election. It`s being held to replace the
vacancy left by the secretary of state, John Kerry. And there`s no doubt
Democrats see this as a critical race. Their majority in the Senate is
down to 54 seats, thanks to Chris Christie`s appointment in New Jersey of a
Republican to fill Frank Lautenberg`s seat. Add to that at least five
Democratic senators are retiring next year. About 14 others are up for

Well, the polls have Markey enjoying a fairly sizable lead up here, about
10 points, against the challenger, Gabriel Gomez. In today`s Suffolk poll,
for example, the same poll had Markey up 7 points on this month, up 17
points back in May. Well, Markey`s lead now has ranged from plus 3 to plus
20 in other polls. The trend is pretty clear, however. The HuffingtonPost
pollster Trendline shows Markey with a consistent lead over the latest.
(sic) Their latest has him at 10.

Well, joining me right now is himself, Massachusetts Congressman and dean
of the delegation and Senate candidate, Democrat Ed Markey.

Congressman, I have to tell you, it must be -- what is it like to have
Obama come up and campaign for you, Bill Clinton come up, campaign for you,
Michelle Obama come up and campaign for you, and last but not least,
Caroline Kennedy?

REP. ED MARKEY (D-MA), SENATE CANDIDATE: You know, this is political
central. We`re in Boston. We`re the hub of the universe. And to have all
of those superstars come in absolutely means the world to me, where -- we
got the Bruins trying to get the Stanley Cup. All we really read is the
political section here and the sports section up here in Boston.


MARKEY: And so for me to have all of those superstars in really has been
something that I never would have thought in my life that could have

MATTHEWS: Let me talk to you about this city because I`ve been watching
Boston for a long time, trying to figure it out. And I want -- I want some
culture from you because you`re from Malden, but you`re from this area.

When New York was hit on 9/11, the reaction was, we`re going to get those
SOBs. Boston had a somewhat nuanced reaction. Mainly, it was, get the
people to the hospital. Let`s take care of our own. Let`s look out for
our own. Let`s support the police. It was very -- not to sound too lefty
about it -- communitarian.

What is it about the, we will call it the Boston mentality, the
Massachusetts mentality? It seems different.

MARKEY: No, I would say we had pretty much the same reaction to New York.

MATTHEWS: As New York?


MATTHEWS: You`re like New York?


MARKEY: Well, in the same way that the first-responders in New York headed
towards the trouble, the same thing happened here.

We had the first-responders heading towards where the bombing occurred. We
had ordinary citizens responding in extraordinary ways, heading towards the
bombing. So, I think the same thing happened in both cities. I think it
brought out the best of both cities, and I think that, in that way, we`re
just Americans. We`re responding as human beings.

The fact that we don`t like the Yankees or the Rangers or the Knicks is
separate from, when a catastrophe happens, how we respond to human

MATTHEWS: OK. Here`s the bigger question. Right now, we`re coming off
the news now. Edward Snowden, it is like a "Where`s Waldo?" Everybody is
trying to decide whether they like him or don`t like him. People on the
fringes have already made up their mind.

But 90 percent of the country is trying to figure this guy out. Do you
think he`s a good guy or a bad guy?

MARKEY: I think that we have got to be tough on terrorism, but we can`t
trample the Constitution.

So I think, like any other person that engages in civil disobedience, as
Martin Luther King said, he`s got to pay the price. He should go to jail.
He broke the law. But, at the same time, he`s opened up a big, big debate
in our country, the line between privacy and security.

We have to make sure that, while the police, while the National Security
Agency is looking for a guilty needle, that the tens of millions of
Americans who have their haystack of innocent information, their phone
calls, their Internet records, are not compromised, unless there is a
legally obtained warrant.

MATTHEWS: Based upon what you have seen, do you think they are?

MARKEY: I`m not sure.

I don`t think we really know whether or not there are standards in place to
truly protect the innocent. And we need to have that debate in Washington.
And, to that extent, this is a very important discussion to have. I have
been the founder and co-chair of the Privacy Caucus in Congress. But I
have also been a member of the Homeland Security Committee.


MARKEY: We need to do both, and we can do both simultaneously.

MATTHEWS: Would you like to have it where -- I was struck -- I was struck
by the other day, a week or two ago, when this story broke about the NSA,
that U.S. senators, like Ron Wyden, who you know, from Oregon...

MARKEY: Very well.

MATTHEWS: ... he would actually come out and say, I don`t know anything
about this thing.

Is it possible that they`re actually relying on checks and balances if U.S.
senators who are smart like Wyden don`t know what`s going on? Is there
enough information getting to the Senate, as you know it?

MARKEY: Well, again, we live in a modern world. We no longer live in an
analog world. We live in a broadband world. We live in a fiberoptic
world. The capacity to gather information is 1,000 times greater than it

MATTHEWS: But are senators getting enough information?

MARKEY: I`m not sure that we fully understand what the safeguards are to
protect against the compromise of innocent information.


MARKEY: And that`s one of the reasons I want to go to the Senate, to play
that role in helping to create that balance.

MATTHEWS: You have had the bombing up here at the marathon. Basically,
the bad guys struck one of the great rituals up here, one of the great

Let`s talk about violence in this country. I don`t understand some of this
stuff. I understand deer hunting in Pennsylvania, where I grew up. I
understand that, getting a shotgun out or a rifle with a couple of rounds
in it. I don`t understand people that want to have semiautomatic weapons
at hand. I don`t understand why Mississippi as of tomorrow will have open
carry without even a license.

Every single person in Mississippi can now be Matt Dillon or the other side
of Matt Dillon. He can be the bad guy, walking around with guns, showing

What`s Massachusetts` view of guns?

MARKEY: Well, Massachusetts is not West Virginia. We`re not Pennsylvania.
We`re not the laggard. We`re the leader.

So, yes, we need background checks. And now senators from those states can
support that. But we go further than that. We don`t know why assault
weapons should be on the streets. We don`t know why...

MATTHEWS: Your opponent is for assault weapons?

MARKEY: My opponent says that assault weapons should not be banned.

My opponent supports high-capacity magazines. I asked him in the debate
last week, where would a civilian in Massachusetts need a weapon that could
shoot 100 bullets in under two minutes? And he has no answer for it.

Later, he said it was for fun. But the problem is, is that those guns
would be in the hands of people who would be causing harm to families not
just here in Massachusetts, but across the country.


MARKEY: I want to go down to the fight the NRA on the issue of assault
weapons and high-capacity magazines. They both should be banned.

MATTHEWS: Well, we invited your opponent, Mr. Gomez, on the show. We will
invite him to come on again next time, but he didn`t want to show.

Let me ask you about...



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... is not a country. It`s England.

MATTHEWS: Oh, good. Sir, OK. This doesn`t make any sense.

Look, I will be right down there in a minute, OK? I will let you talk.
Give me a minute.

MARKEY: Welcome to Boston, Chris.

MATTHEWS: No, it`s great.

MARKEY: Democracy in action.

MATTHEWS: It`s great.


MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about turnout, because these special elections --
I saw the polls. You saw the polls. You can`t poll a special election,
because there`s so few of them. There`s no history.

How are going to you get people out to break their focus on the Bruins and
the Cup and all this stuff and focus on this thing, and why should they?

MARKEY: Well, over the last four days, we have made 400 door-knocks -- I
mean, three million door-knocks or telephone calls to voters in

You`re right. People in Massachusetts are not used to having an election
in a 97-degree day in the end of June. So, it`s all about get-out-the-
vote. I have been crisscrossing the state. We have been making the
personal contacts.

We have been trying to separate the two candidates on the issue of gun
control, on a woman`s right to choose, on Wall Street reform, all the way
down the line. We think we have done that. And we`re ready to get our
vote out on Election Day tomorrow.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Markey, thank you.

MARKEY: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much.

MARKEY: Thank you so much.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Congressman Markey.


MATTHEWS: If you`re a voter in Massachusetts, make sure you go to the
polls tomorrow, or else you don`t matter. Simple as that.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.




MATTHEWS: Hi. We`re back here at Quincy Market with all the people here.
And we`re getting a little point of view.

This is a real touristy spot here, but a lot of the people here are
actually from Massachusetts, but some are from nearby Rhodey, Rhode Island.

What do you think about this Senate race?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would not vote for Mr...







MATTHEWS: Are you a Republican?


MATTHEWS: OK. Then that makes sense. Makes sense.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, I am a Republican by registry.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

MATTHEWS: And who did you vote for in the presidential election last time?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did vote for Mr. Romney.

MATTHEWS: Who did you vote for?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I voted for Mr. Romney, and the year before that, I
voted for Mr. McCain.

MATTHEWS: So you`re a Republican? Big deal.


MATTHEWS: You`re standard issue.


MATTHEWS: No, you`re fine. You`re fine.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I worked for the legislature. I knew Eddie
Markey when he was a state rep.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I like him. I knew why he got moved out of his
office, so I knew the kid who moved his desk. And that got him elected to

MATTHEWS: They can tell me where to sit. They can`t tell me where to


MATTHEWS: I remember that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, there were 10 Democrats and five Republicans
running in that primary or something like that.

MATTHEWS: That was his fight with McGee, I remember.


MATTHEWS: Hi. What do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wonder why -- what you think about how riled up the
left is about Snowden.

MATTHEWS: Well, it`s mixed, I think.

There`s some people in the netroots who are very upset about it -- about --
no, they`re for him. They like Assange. They like him, because they`re
basically questioning the establishment. And then there are other people
that are kind of mixed, like me. I find this a hard one.


MATTHEWS: Because I want to know what he told me. And a lot of times,
people do things, you don`t like them, but you like what they did because
then you learn more.


MATTHEWS: And nobody else told me what was going on. Feinstein didn`t
tell me. This guy did. So, I`m...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your sense of what the country thinks?

MATTHEWS: I think the country`s mixed. They know the law.



MATTHEWS: You know, it`s a tricky thing.

Well, you remember, we hanged John Brown. And he was fighting slavery. So
it`s complicated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speaking of slavery, I would like to say something to
address President Obama and Mr. Markey, OK?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Standing in the cradle of liberty in the harbor in
Boston, I would like to see the Declaration of Independence read to the
people of this country, so these people could understand what it means that
we shouldn`t have had slavery. Women should have always been able to vote,
and everybody should have equal rights.


MATTHEWS: Well, I`m a big fan of the Declaration.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An Asian president, a gay president, a (INAUDIBLE)
president, anybody.

MATTHEWS: Well, we`re getting there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m from New Jersey, but I`m a Democrat. And I love
it because they work for the people.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you.

Anybody else here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes, I`m from Michigan. This is our first trip
to Boston, the cradle of liberty and freedom. And I`m a little left of
center. So, I guess I like the guy.

MATTHEWS: Thank you.

By the way, that`s Faneuil Hall. Does everything remember what I remember?
In 1960, that`s where John Kennedy spoke to the American people the night
before the election. I remember walking. I had never heard of Faneuil
Hall before, but it`s very -- any more thoughts?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s incredible.

MATTHEWS: Any more thoughts? Any more thoughts?

You, sir. You`re well-dressed.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m speaking not only as a person from Massachusetts.

But in regard to Snowden, it is complicated, isn`t it? There are layers to

MATTHEWS: Take the microphone. Take it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I guess I feel as if, for those people who are
trying to do the right thing, they should live with the consequences. Back
in the 60s, I refused induction and was willing to go to jail and stood
trial because it was the right thing to do.

MATTHEWS: OK. I think we heard that from Markey earlier tonight. Take
your punishment.

Anyway, thank you.

We will be right back be with more.



"Market Wrap."

The Dow plunged 139 points, the S&P 500 -- and the Nasdaq dropped 36
points. Apple shares taking a tumble, briefly dropping below $400 a share
for the first time since April, before settling at $402. Oracle and
Microsoft have joined forces and announced a partnership in the cloud. It
will allow Oracle customers to run a number of Oracle products in a Windows
server and Windows cloud platforms.

That`s it from CNBC, first in business worldwide -- now back to HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

In North Carolina, grassroots protesters gathered today, as they do every
Monday now, to push back against the state`s ironclad Republican control in
both houses and the governorship. And they`re getting national attention
now. They`re protesting GOP cuts to social programs and refusal to expand
Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act. And they`re also protesting
something we have given a lot of attention here on HARDBALL, efforts to
suppress the black vote, which could include photo I.D.s at polls,
elimination of same-day registration, and perhaps most importantly shorten
early voting hours.

Judith Browne-Dianis heads the Advancement Project, along with the North
Carolina state chapter of the NAACP, has helped to organize these protests.

Thank you so much, Judith. Thanks so much.

You have got this whole segment to yourself.


MATTHEWS: And this is a very important issue. Tell me what you think is
the worst thing that`s going on in these statehouses controlled by -- both
houses controlled by Republicans and in many cases, 24 cases, they have got
the governorship as well. They`re able to just do whatever they want to
manipulate the electorate.


This is the first time that the Republicans have actually held on to both
houses in North Carolina and the governor`s mansion since 1870. And so
what they did was, when they won all of those houses, they decided to move
an agenda of extremism, an agenda that not only hurts working families by
not expanding Medicaid, but cutting off unemployment benefits, and then
moving to give a tax credit to the 23 wealthiest families in the state, and
then add to that they`re going to try and cut back voting rights at the
same time, so that people won`t be heard when the next election comes.

So this is the kind of extremism we see when they take over both houses of
the legislature and the governor`s mansion. And what is great about North
Carolina is North Carolinians are standing up against this extremism.

MATTHEWS: What`s extraordinary to people that watch this program who know
what`s going on in politics, that these are states in many cases that voted
for Obama. And yet because of the way people voted in 2010, maybe the
Democrats were just sitting on their butts, but whatever happened, the
conservative movements in this country and the hard-right movement were
able to grab control of the levers, deciding who votes, deciding how money
is spent, enormous power, even in states that we call blue or purple.

How does that happen?

BROWNE-DIANIS: That`s right. That`s right.

You know, of course, in 2010, we had -- Republicans really did a yeoman`s
job of creating, of using redistricting in order to gain their own power in
the future. Then, in 2012, what we saw was that, when people turned out in
2008, in 2012, Republicans said, wait a second, what is happening here, and
started to try and pass restrictive voting laws.

And in North Carolina, they were able to grab the -- the governor`s
mansion. And so now we have -- we`re starting to see the agenda that they
wanted to put in place because they`re finally in power. And so, you know,
at the end of the day, what is great about what is happening is that, while
they have been able to get control -- and let`s not forget how much money
they have put into politics, to winning these elections.

You know, in North Carolina, you have --you know, we have the Koch brothers
all over the country. In North Carolina, it only takes one guy, his name
is Art Pope, and he can buy and sell the legislature. And at the same
time, on the other side of the coin, we have the people. And the people
are standing up against big money.

And the people, if you look at that movement in North Carolina, it is a
locally grown organic movement that started in 2007, has continued through
now with the North Carolina NAACP, at the helm of it and bringing together
people across racial lines, across economic lines. The people who are
being arrested are doctors and nurses. They`re teachers. They`re firemen.
You name it.

We`ve had even city councilmen from various cities being arrested because
people are say no to this agenda of extremism, no, you will cut a gaping
hole in the safety net for North Carolinians and we`re not going back to
where we were.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Well, let`s take a look at the state of play now.
Republicans control both houses of the legislature. Plus, the governorship
as I said in 24 states now. That`s nearly half the states under total
Republican control, state house at both legislatures. Democrats have the
same power in just 14 states.

So, I get there`s a couple messages here. I don`t know whether protests
work. You think they do.

I think voting works. I think unless you get Democrats, especially
minorities and young people to understand, you can`t be a sprinter in
politics. You`ve got to be a long distance runner.

DIANIS: That`s right.

MATTHEWS: You can`t just vote in presidential elections and feel satisfied
because the government`s being taken away from you.

DIANIS: That`s right. But, Chris, here`s the thing. You can`t just vote
but in between you have to be engaged. That`s what`s happening in North
Carolina. The Forward Together Movement is keeping people engaged during
these off years, right?

Too often, we focus on just, you know, going into the electoral -- into the
election cycle, going to the booth. We vote and then we leave. Well, in
fact, what we need to do is be engaged.

We need to watch these state legislatures. As you said, they have taken
over so many state legislatures passing regressive laws that are harming
working families and the poor that are really dividing our country. And so
instead, what we`ve got to do is in North Carolina, they`ve taken the path
of Moral Mondays and protesting.

But it`s about gaining momentum, because what`s going to happen in North
Carolina is, we`ll start with these protests but the North Carolina NAACP,
Democracy North Carolina and others are ready to register people to vote
because they are going to show their voices when they go into the voting

MATTHEWS: Anything you can do to juice up the voters and the citizenship
of this country is go good for everybody.

Thank you, Judith Browne Dianis for joining us on Moral Monday.

DIANIS: Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Up next, what the Democrats here in Massachusetts are doing to
protect that seat in tomorrow`s special election here.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: The president of South Africa says that Nelson Mandela now
remains in critical condition. President Jacob Zuma is asking the country
to pray for Mandela and saying doctors are doing everything to make him
feel comfortable.

Mandela has been in the hospital for 17 days suffering a recurring lung
infection. Zuma also said President Obama will go ahead with his visit to
South Africa later this week.

And we`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back here in Massachusetts, from Quincy`s Market. By the
way, Quincy Market is a great place to visit right now.

We`ve got two people very identified with the commonwealth of
Massachusetts, people that know the state very well. The widow of Senator
Ted Kennedy, Vicki Kennedy. She`s here with me right now.

Vicki, thank you for coming.


MATTHEWS: And, of course, we`ve got Tommy O`Neill who is beginning to be
frighteningly (ph) resembling his dad, Speaker Tip O`Neill, who was one of
the legions up here for all those years. And I was fortunate to work for
him for awhile.

Let me ask you, Vicki, this whole question in Massachusetts in trying to
get to the bottom of the state. Ted Kennedy was always reelected because
it wasn`t because he was a celebrity, it was because he worked for the

KENNEDY: Well, Massachusetts is just a wonderful fabulous place to live
and people are concerned about the same things they`re concerned about
around the country. They`re concerned about their families. They`re
concerned about their futures.

I`ve been lucky enough to travel around just recently on behalf of Ed
Markey. And we have an election tomorrow for the United States Senate. Ed
Markey is on the ballot. I hope everyone will go out and vote. It`s very,
very important for their futures.

I`ve been hearing the same things I heard when I was traveling around the
state with Ted. People are worried about their futures. They`re worried
about what kind of future their children will have, what kind of future
they will have. And those are the issues people are talking about. Those
are the issues Ed Markey`s been talking about.

MATTHEWS: You know, Tommy, this state, when I went to school up here, this
other place, holy cross back in the `60s, this place wasn`t doing so well.
And then with the help of government money and education and health care,
the big hospitals, big universities like MIT, BC, Harvard and all the rest
of them, just all the infrastructure, your dad and Ted Kennedy showed how
government can make a place grow and prosper like this place.

TOM O`NEILL (D), FORMER MA. LT. GOVERNOR: Let me say something to you, I
want to pick up where Vicky left off. This state historically and these
folks, historically, have always, if you level with the people, they`ll
follow you.

And this state of people who have a history of electing people who are a
little more progressive perhaps than even they are, but because they
believe in them, and because they understand that that direction and that
leadership is going to show to a higher ground, they`re going to elect him.

And that`s you`re point about Eddie Markey, he`s done exactly the thing.
He levels with them.

MATTHEWS: Ted Kennedy was known as Mr. Healthcare for, what, decades and
finally got in with his signature at the end, Obama (ph). Is that an issue
on this campaign?

KENNEDY: It`s a huge issue. I saw Ed Markey push this issue. I was lucky
enough to work with him on pushing this issue over the finish line. You
know, when Teddy in his last days, he knew he wasn`t going to be here to
see health care become a reality. And those of us who loved him committed
ourselves to making sure it became a reality. Ed Markey was one of those

And I sat in his office with him, as he had papers in front of him, as he
had the strategy in front of him is how we were going to get this to work
for the people, how we were going to take care of children, how we were
going to take care of seniors, how we were going to take care of families
to make sure that no family was going to have to suffer and lose insurance
when they got sick. How health care was going to be a right for everyone.

And Ed Markey was as committed to that as anyone I have ever seen. And
with his hard work, along with the other members of the House of
Representatives, that passion was turned into law.

And that`s the same commitment he brings to all the issues he works on.
That`s why I`m so passionate about supporting him.

MATTHEWS: Upsets are still possible. This state doesn`t always vote
Democrat. You`ve had Republican governors, Bill Weld, guy likes that
pretty popular over the years.

O`NEILL: Two pieces of news. Bergeron is going to play for the Bruins,
number. Eddie Markey is going to carry the day tomorrow with 8 percent to
10 percent of the vote. I`m going to tell you why.

He`s been a workhorse in the U.S. House of Representatives for 37 years.
He`s not a showboat. He is a workhorse.

And he`s been there. He`s filed legislation. He has provided leadership
on every issue, every measure that you can give a man over 37 years in the
U.S. House of Representatives. The key here is that you`re going to have
environmentalists. You`re going have women.

You`re going to have Latinos supporting Eddie Markey tomorrow. Latinos
against a man who is a Latino supported by the way in this town by the only
Latino newspaper supporting Eddie Markey, there is a reason for it. The
other guy hasn`t said or done anything that`s no (INAUDIBLE) --

MATTHEWS: Yes, but he`s got some points of view. Let me ask you about it.
He is for the rights of people to have semiautomatic rifles. He doesn`t
want a ban, he doesn`t want a ban on this big 30-round magazines. He wants
that completely up to -- anybody can have that stuff. He doesn`t believe
in any kind of gun control.


O`NEILL: If you can believe that, and understand that he has that stand
and he thinks he is right. And then he tells Eddie Markey not to use a
slaughter in a school in Connecticut as an issue because it`s unfair, I`d
say there`s something wrong with him.

KENNEDY: I think he is out of step with the people of Massachusetts on
that issue, without question. We have in this state some of the strongest
gun safety laws on the books of any state in the country. And we have the
lowest gun deaths in the country. And there is reason for it, even though
we have porous borders.

And here we have a candidate who says that it`s OK, that it`s fun to have
high capacity magazines, a weapon that can fire 100 rounds in two minutes.
I think that`s out of step with the people of Massachusetts.

Ed Markey has been on the cutting edge. He has been a positive voice for
safety, not just gun safety, not just common sense gun safety, but Internet
safety, protecting our children online, for protecting our privacy in our
cell phones, in our medical records. He`s been on the cutting edge,
forward thinking, thinking about problems really before we`ve thought about

MATTHEWS: What do you make of this focus up here? Because God knows we`re
up here for a reason. Because this state, this commonwealth surprised the
country when they elected Scott Brown a while back.

What happens? Is it the bad county, the Democratic side, is not that
strong a county, doesn`t connect with the people? How do these upsets
occur? Because there is a big concern, there has been, the reason Obama
has been up here, Biden has been up here, Caroline Kennedy has been up
here, Mrs. Obama has been up here.

You don`t want to lose this one if you`re Democrat.

O`NEILL: Eddie Markey doesn`t want to take anything for granted. He`s
going to take all the support he can find and he`s going to put it to work
so that he wins tomorrow, number one.

Number two, Scott Brown was a candidate who had given 20 years of service
in the state legislature. And so, he was an individual who knew who he
was. He knew where he stood on the issues.

This guy has a campaign which evolves. I dare say he came into this race
not expecting to win it.


O`NEILL: And not completely understanding who he was when he got the

MATTHEWS: Governor O`Neill, you`ve got a great voice for politics. You
should go in it again. Thank you, Tommy O`Neill, the former lieutenant
governor up here.

O`NEILL: Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: And, Vicki Kennedy, you could have been a senator any time you
wanted. Thank you for being here, Vicki Kennedy.

KENNEDY: Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: We`ll be right back from Boston right after this.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with this.

I have an easy proposal to make. When you`re about to vote in an election,
think about what you believe, then think about what the candidate believes.
If it`s different, be careful.

Let me put hit the way. If you don`t vote your beliefs in the voting
booth, why would you count on someone else voting for them on the floor of
the U.S. Senate later?

There are a good number of politicians in this country that I like but
would probably never vote for. I liked the first President Bush. I liked
Gerald Ford. I like Bob Dole. I like them all us people, but never voted
for them.

As to the majority of other people who voted for them, I`d wish them well.
But, again, I wouldn`t vote to reelect them.

So, I have come to believe that the best reaction to liking or disliking a
candidate is be honest about it. Say good things about the ones you like,
but vote for the one that will vote like you do. Otherwise you end up with
a senator that makes you angry. Not just how he votes, but how you voted.

Politicians like most people don`t often change. So if you see a candidate
votes like you do, you better vote for him because the people who don`t
agree with you are sure as heck voting for the other guy.

Most important, get out there and vote. If you don`t, things are going to
get done the way the other people think they should, and they`re not
sitting around thinking about what you would like done.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"POLITICS NATION" with Al Sharpton starts right now.


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