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The Ed Show for Sunday, June 30th, 2013

June 30, 2013
Guests: Mike Rogers, Brian Sims, Emanuel Cleaver, Eddie Bernice Johnson,
Bernie Sanders, Mike Papantonio

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED SHOW,
live from Minneapolis.

Well, it`s 5:00 Eastern. This is THE ED SHOW. Let`s get to work.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate to throw cold water on the celebration on the
other side.

BILL MAHER, COMEDIAN: The Christian conservatives, they are furious with

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I believe in traditional

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA: That is something that God created.
That is something that God will define.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marriage has been debased by this decision.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Justice Kennedy`s opinion in many
respects was incredibly insulting.

MAHER: I thought he was the leader of the potty train Republicans.

CHRISTIE: Your opinions on this issue really don`t matter a whole hell of
a lot to me.

BACHMANN: Today`s decisions are offensive on so many levels.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jesus tells us to love everyone. I mean, even the
homosexuals, but it`s just so hard.

PAT ROBERTSON, TELEVANGELIST: Read the Bible of both Sodom and Gomorrah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A holy quintet who goes against the laws of nature and
nature`s god and that`s very unfortunate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I also don`t buy into this sort of weak notion of
history that this is sort of an inevitable train and this is where we`re
going to go.



SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight, folks. Thanks for watching.

At this hour, millions of Americans are celebrating equality. Cities
across the nation hosted guy pride parades today in celebration of DOMA
being struck down by the Supreme Court. In New York City, millions of
people showed up for one of the nation`s oldest and largest guy pride

Make no mistake: the fight to advance gay rights is the civil rights issue
of our time. And this fight is far from over. Currently, only 13 states
in the District of Columbia have gay marriage. Republican Party is hell-
bent for election on denying gay Americans the right to get married. They
will say anything to stop gay rights from advancing in this country.

Just this morning, Jim DeMint and Congressman Tim Huelskamp were spreading
this bogus lie.


JIM DEMINT, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: You`ve got 37 states where the people
have decided that they want to protect the marriage between a man and a
woman because they know that that`s the environment where children can
thrive and succeed. I mea, that`s been proven. It is really about the
best environment for children. Better for children.

REP. TIM HUELSKAMP (R), KANSAS: The research is very clear that the idea
would -- for raisings our children should be the issue here. The needs of
our children. The court decided the desires of adults should trump the
need of children.


SCHULTZ: Meanwhile, fringe Republicans wasting no time trashing the
Supreme Court and gay Americans after the ruling came down. Tea Party
Congressman Louie Gohmert was so upset he was talking about the end of a
great civilization.


REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: They were not aware that most wise man in
history, Solomon, said there`s nothing new under the sun. And this isn`t
new. It`s been tried over and over and it is usually tried at the end of a
great civilization.

What we now have today is a holy quintet who goes against the laws of
nature and nature`s god and that`s very unfortunate.


SCHULTZ: Gohmert didn`t stop there. Two days later delivering this floor
speech trying to scare Americans.


GOHMERT: Once you move marriage beyond the scope of a man and a woman, you
really don`t end up with a good place it put a limit.

I think polygamy is wrong, bigamy is wrong and it`s a crime in many places.
But how will that be justifiable -- even though I believe it`s wrong -- how
will that be justifiable now that court has removed this? There is some
believe polygamy is the way to go.


SCHULTZ: The Republicans have been fear-mongering over gay marriage with
bogus slippery slope theories for years. The American people -- well,
they`re not buying it. During Gohmert`s speech, Michele Bachmann came to
support her partner in crime.

She offered a simple solution to save our country from the wrath of God.


BACHMANN: We need to pray. We need to pray. We need to confess our sins
as a nation and we need to pray and ask God for his holy intervention and
for his forgiveness. We are not over as a nation. There is a future,
there is a hope.

But we need to recognize that this week was historic and your words, Mr.
Speaker, the words of Mr. Gohmert, were exactly right.


SCHULTZ: We should point out that house chamber was empty during the fear-
mongering session.

And you heard it from Michele Bachmann herself. If we pray the gay away,
America will survive? Unfortunately, the godfather of dooms day
predictions doesn`t feel the same way. Pat Robertson is talking Sodom and


ROBERTSON: Homosexuality, which was called an abomination by the Bible has
been given a status of a constitution of protected class. Read the Bible
of both Sodom and Gomorrah. That`s where the term comes from, sodomy.
Look what happened to Sodom after a while. There wasn`t any other way and
God did something pretty interesting.


SCHULTZ: Then we have Governor Chris Christie. For reasons unknown to THE
ED SHOW, some Democrats out there have praised Chris Christie as a
moderate. But this week, the real Christie came out.


CHRISTIE: I don`t think the ruling was appropriate. I think it was wrong.
I thought Justice Kennedy`s opinion in many respect was incredibly
insulting to those people, 340-some members of Congress who voted for the
Defense of Marriage Act.


SCHULTZ: Christie also vetoed a 2012 New Jersey gay marriage bill. He`s
no different than of these radical Republican governors who think gay
Americans don`t deserve the same right as everyone else.

It`s not just governors. This fight is going to be in every statehouse in
America. This week in the state of Pennsylvania, openly gay State
Representative Brian Simms was silence by a Republican on the House floor.
He was attempting to speak about the Supreme Court`s decision to strike
down DOMA before he was blocked with a procedural pressure.

The Republican who blocked him told a local Web site why he did it.


STATE REP. DARYL METCALFE (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I did not believe that as a
member of that body that I should allow someone to make comment such as he
was preparing to make that ultimately were just open rebellion against what
the word of God has said, what God has said and open rebellion against
God`s law.


SCHULTZ: State Representative Daryl Metcalfe seems to forget God`s law
doesn`t apply to government. At least that`s the way this country was set

And right now, this country is being truly tested by the separation of
church and state.

I respect all opinions. I respect the faith. I have faith myself. But
who in it country should align themselves with a political party that would
advocate discrimination, rights in society? Who would do that?

Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think.

Tonight`s question: Will the Republican Party ever treat gay Americans as
equals? Next A for yes, text B for no to 67622. You can always go to our
blog at We`ll bring you the results later on in the show.

For discussion tonight, I`m joined by the state senator slammed in the
statehouse this week. That`s Brian Sims from Pennsylvania.

Also, MSNBC contributor Joy Reid with us tonight, and gay activist and
journalist Mike Rogers. Great to have you all on board here.

There is pretty pointed rhetoric coming from the conservatives. They are
connecting -- they are making the pitch that America may not survive as a
country because gay people are being recognized in society.

What is your reaction to that?

MIKE ROGERS, GAY ACTIVIST AND JOURNALIST: Well, those are the same people,
Ed, who don`t care about global warming. If they really cared about the
health of the American people and the world, they would focus on that,
instead of focusing on what already we`ve had in Massachusetts for almost
10 years without any problems whatsoever.

So, this is a desperate last effort for part of the religious community to
go after the gay and lesbian community. I just to say that there`s been
many churches that have supported the gay community and this effort in
synagogues and other religions. The Presbyterian Church, for example, the
National Cathedral, the nation`s symbolic church, celebrated with a special
ringing of the bells when the marriage case was won in the Supreme Court.

I think what we have here is rhetoric, as you`ve said, by a small handful
of very angry people who are misusing religion and misstating the facts.

SCHULTZ: Joy Reid, can the Republican Party survive taking the stand on
the altar for lack of a better term? I believe this is going to be played
out in every statehouse in this country, by the right wing who`s trying to
inject their faith into the governmental process. I mean, there`s only 13
states that recognize guy marriage. Where do you think this is going?

JOY REID, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think part of the reason the
religious right in particular is alarmed by this ruling is that it did
essentially set up a separate and unequal system of marriage, so that in
the 13 states that allow gay marriage, and those couples who will be
recognized fully by the federal government but in the 37 other state they
will not. So that you could actually get married in New York, move to
Florida and lose the recognition of your marriage, at least at the state

I think what that really does set up are battles in each of those states or
at least in a lot of them, many of which are Republican governed, where
you`re going to have guy couples use the California model and say they are
being denied equal protection under the law, because the Supreme Court
ruling specifically say that moral program is not a reason that you can
people right. That people have a First Amendment right to object to this
notion of marriage between men and men, and women and women.

You can object to that morally under the First Amendment,. but as a matter
of the 14th Amendment, you can`t deny the rights. So, it does set up a few
battles that they`re probably going to be very contentious and ugly for the
religious right.

SCHULTZ: They will have major battles. I mean, the next Republican
national convention for 2016, this is going to be a donnybrook, because we
have seen societal attitudes. And the viewpoint of all of this shifting in
a big way, but there are it seems to be a lot of conservatives who are
stuck in the mud. Like the gentleman from Pennsylvania who is silencing
our next guest, Brian Sims.

Mr. Sims, you are silenced by Republicans this week. What do you think
America needs to know?

STATE REP. BRIAN SIMS (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, Ed, first of all, thank you
for having me on. I think this is an important issue that America needs to
know about. You know, right now, as you just suggested, there are
legislators across the country that are gearing up to do battle with LGBT
Americans, to do battle with civil rights.

I think one of the things that we are seeing is that when they are losing
and let`s be clear, they are most definitely losing. By every metric that
we can measure, right now, LGBT civil rights is advancing in the United
States and it`s going to continue to advance.

So what is happening is we are seeing these opponents lash out and
sometimes it`s embarrassing. Sometimes, it`s just wholly wrong. And I
think that what we saw on the House floor in Pennsylvania was a little of

SCHULTZ: Yes. Mike, I want to ask you this about the laws of nature.
This is what Louie Gohmert mentioned on the House floor as we played the
tape earlier. The laws of nature -- and then he also made the comment of
children being affected.

Your thoughts on all of that? What do you think that it is hurting the
children, that argument that conservatives are making?


ROGERS: Well, I think we only have to look in places that are -- where
there are children raised by LGBT couples. They are some of the
healthiest, most well-adjusted children. They have the least incidents of
being bullies.

So I think that we look at these marriages as real healthy for kids of LBGT
parents. So, it`s, again, it`s more of their mythology, Ed. I think what
really is happening is Louie Gohmert is really stepping up to the plate to
fill the soon to be empty shoes of Michele Bachmann. I mean, he is just so
off the map on some stuff and we`re going to see more of him. He is
actually a benefit to the left, because he is the personification of some
of this insane rhetoric.

The holy quadruple or whatever you`re saying, and all of these various
things about the court calling it legitimate, what these guys have done.
So, they are OK with the 98-2 vote of the Senate, 98-0 vote of the Voting
Rights Act being tossed. But when something they don`t like is tossed,
then all of a sudden, it`s activist judges and all of those things.

SCHULTZ: Brian, your thoughts on the aspect of children being affected.
This is one of the arguments the conservatives continually throw out.

SIMS: You know, I think Michael just hit on it best. We know absolutely
now from the American Medical Association, American Psychological
Association, that children that are raised by LGBT families are doing

The truth is I would suggest that children that are raised by people who
are treating them hatred, people that are treating them bigotry, I think
they are the ones that are really going to suffer, because like I said,
earlier, we know we are winning this.

So, if you raising your child to live in a world where he or she thinks
that everybody looks and sounds just like you, or you are allowed to
silence them from what they are thinking, then I think we have a bigger

REID: And, Ed, if I can just say really quickly, because there was a time
when the idea of African-Americans and white Americans marrying each other
was talked about the same way, that it was against God`s law that there
were all of these sort of biological reasons why it shouldn`t be done and
it would harm children. So, we`ve been here before and I think the right
has to understand that being on the wrong side of civil rights fight is
always a losing bet.

SCHULTZ: Yes. We also heard a lot about that when interracial marriage
began to take off in this country. We heard the exact same arguments that
we`re hearing right now from the conservatives, it would destroy the
family, it would affect children.

The other thing I was struck by, the gay pride parade here in Minneapolis
today, the number of families that were out there. I think Americans now
more than ever understand discrimination. But now, they`re willing to
really fight back collectively against it. And this is the donnybrook that
is going to taking place I believe in the Republican Party.

And to you, Joy, how can Chris Christie think about getting the nomination
from Republicans if he doesn`t take this stand against guy marriage?

REID: Right. And Chris Christie have done some many things that have made
him an apostate in the Republican Party that they feel embracing Barack
Obama instead of Mitt Romney, accepting that money for hurricane Sandy.
So, now, you are seeing him for trying to reposition himself to the right,
because he still wants to be viable in 2016.

But the problem is he`s also repositioning himself against the younger
members of the Republican Party and the conservative movement itself,
because younger conservatives are moving away from their elders on this
issue. So increasingly you are seeing older conservatives isolating
themselves even within their own movement.

SCHULTZ: They are.

Representative Sims, what can legislator do to move gay rights forward in
this country? What has to be done?

SIMS: Well, first and foremost, they need to work with their LGBT
constituents. You know, we learn in the 2000 census that here are LBGT
people in 99.8 percent of counties. I`d argue that there were a little bit
of everywhere, but they maybe didn`t fell out the survey.

We have seen the civil rights movement move in the last 25 years. What
took the traditional civil rights movement about 65 years. And the reason
we saw that through the support of our allies, getting out, working
directly with our legislators, introducing municipal non-discrimination
clauses, working to introduce statewide non-discrimination clauses like
we`re doing here in Pennsylvania.

SCHULTZ: Mike, your prediction -- 13 states have gay marriage. By the
time we get to the mid terms, what will the number be?

ROGERS: By the time we get to mid terms in 2014, I predict probably three
or four more states.

But more important, I think what we are seeing in which Brian spoke about
earlier are these allies. When we look at places like the Human Rights
Campaign, their members are extraordinary. Whereas just five or six years
ago, it was only LBGT people on the front line of the fights and now we
seeing just across the country, in Mississippi, by the year of 2020,
majority of people say, we think marriage equality. So, and that`s the
final states.

So this battle is clean up. We need to fight hard in those states. Bring
it back to the court. And we will win.


SCHULTZ: All right. Mike Rogers, Joy Reid -- I got to run. State
Representative Sims, Joy Reid and Mike Roberts, thanks very for being with
us on this issue on THE ED SHOW tonight. It`s a big, big day when it comes
to equality.

Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the screen.
Share your thoughts with us Twitter @EdShow, and on Facebook. We want t
know what you think.

Coming up: next right for voting rights. We`ll look at the Supreme Court`s
decision and how Democrats are fighting back. And it could be the next
bubble. Senator Bernie Sanders joins me to discuss Congress`s trillion
dollar gamble.

Stay tuned.


SCHULTZ: Good to have you back with us. Thanks for watching tonight.

Representative Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader in the House is meeting
with key minority caucus leaders behind closed doors, trying to revive the
Voting Rights Act.


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), DEMOCRATIC LEADER: What we want to do is correct
what the Supreme Court did. And to do so, we must do it in a bipartisan
way, which is always has been, and to do so in a way that addresses the


SCHULTZ: There is strong speculation the revised Voting Rights Act could
be named after Congressman John Lewis who marched with Dr. Martin Luther
King, Jr.

Representative Lewis was beaten by sheriff`s deputies in the fight for
voting rights and he is disturbed by this new attack by the court.


REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: The Supreme Court stuck a dagger in the
heart of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. The only thing I did, little few
short years ago, I gave a little blood on that bridge. But other brothers
and sisters of mine and other people in the struggle gave up their lives.


SCHULTZ: Make no mistake: the Republicans will fight people like John
Lewis. The Supreme Court ruling allow estates like Texas and Alabama to
enforce racist voter ID laws. They will swap conservative talk radio and
FOX News and they will just hammer on all their viewers and listeners.
They have allegations of mass voter fraud. They`re going to sell it hard.

The struggle for voting rights 48 years ago on this bridge in Alabama
inspired the nation to change. Now Democrats in Congress are going to have
to renew the fight on House floor in a Congress that does not get along or
move on anything.

Representatives Emanuel Cleaver and also Eddie Bernice Johnson join me to
talk about this. The Voting Rights Act and where does it start now?

Good to have both of you with us.

Congressman Cleaver, can Congress pass a new Voting Rights Act? I mean, it
sounds good what Nancy Pelosi is saying, leader of the Democrats, but
climate in the Congress and, of course, with the Tea Party, what hope do
you have this is going to be corrected?

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D), MISSOURI: There is no question that Congress is
far more polarized today than it was in 2006 when the Voting Rights Act was
reauthorized. We have political tribalism at a much higher level.

I was a sponsor in 2006 along with Eddie Bernice Johnson. But keep in
mind, we had Denney Hastert as a co-sponsor and then George Bush signed it
into law. Things have changed a little, but the good news is Jim
Sensenbrenner from the Judiciary Committee has said it would be renewed.

The Republicans, however, are going to be enormous pressure from people
around, from states that are trying to use the Supreme Court decision as
fertilizer to grow a crop of laws that will make it difficult for
minorities to vote.

SCHULTZ: Congresswoman Johnson, do you trust John Boehner on this issue?
Do you think he will move it forward? He has stopped everything else.

REP. EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON (D), TEXAS: I`d like very much to trust the
speaker. He has not shown me that he cannot be trusted at this point. I
know that he is under tremendous pressure from a big portion of his
conference. To do things differently than what he would like to do. I`m
hoping that because this is an issue that`s so important to the bulk of the
citizens in this country that he will have the courage and have the help
with some of his leadership to push this forward.

SCHULTZ: Alabama`s attorney general says no one will lose their voting
rights. And everyone benefits from the court`s ruling. Here it is.


for Alabama taxpayers, because neither the state nor local government will
have to spend time, money and effort on submitting routine changes to
voting laws to Washington, D.C.


SCHULTZ: We should point out that Alabama is adopting new voter ID laws
just in time for midterm election.

Congressman Cleaver, what`s your reaction to this? The swift-moving by
half a dozen states on the heels of this ruling to enact voter ID laws.

CLEAVER: Well, what he just said is absolutely ridiculous. Look, we have
some unstable states that have already begun to move as many voters,
particularly minority voters, as possible. It is clear in the decision
that was written, all of the justices agreed on one thing and that is there
is still discrimination in voting.

And in a democracy, you would think that the governments around the nation
and state houses would do everything to encourage people to vote. That`s
not the case. That`s why we need to have Section 4 updated so that we can
enforce Section 5.

And these people who are out talking about all of these laws have no
intention of trying to make sure that all of the voters have equal access
to the ballot box.

SCHULTZ: I mean, they are trying to strip away all federal regulations if
they had it their way. Turning it over to the states, radical state
houses, we`ve seen the war on women, we`ve seen what they are trying to do
to reverse abortion rights in this country.

President Obama was very critical on the court`s decision on this. Here it


president had it not be there for those who courageously helped to pass the
Voting Rights Act.


SCHULTZ: What can the president do, Congresswoman Johnson? What should he
do at this point?

JOHNSON: Well, at this point, he can use a pulpit. The Congress must act
and it`s the responsibility of the Congress. I cannot believe that we have
500 people in the Congress, in the House -- more than 500 in the House and
Senate that cannot see the need for oversight.

That`s why we have law enforcement. That`s why we have referees at games.
We have to have oversight to be sure that laws are enforced properly.

SCHULTZ: If they don`t -- if Congress doesn`t move on this before the
midterms, Congressman Cleaver, what`s it mean?

CLEAVER: Well, it means that we are a laughingstock around the globe. The
nation that goes out and preaches democracy to other nations like Syria is
a nation that is still pressing certain groups when comes to voting.

But keep in mind that in August, we will have the 50th anniversary of the
march on Washington. And if there is no movement, I think you are going to
see a level of participation that ends, whatever we did do in Washington
that willing make any other march seem like a little parade.

SCHULTZ: Well, I hope the Republicans do something about it, but I have to
tell you I simply don`t trust them. And the Tea Party can raise a lot of
hell and this is some hell that I think that they are going to raise.
You`re more confident than I am. I hope it all works out.

Congressman Emanuel Cleaver and Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson, thank
you for your time. I appreciate you being on THE ED SHOW on this Sunday.

Coming up, Washington`s inaction means double trouble for college students.
Senator Bernie Sanders on what it means for the economy.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not often you`re a prisoner in your own company
but that`s what`s happening to Chip Starnes.


SCHULTZ: We`ll show you how corporate greed isn`t just for big business
any more.

But next, I`m taking your questions, "Ask Ed Live". Stay ahead. We`ll be
right back.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Favorite part of the show right
here. We love hearing from viewers tonight in our "Ask Ed Live" segment.

First question comes from Doug Sailer. "Why do so many people vote against
their own interests?"

Well, it is easy, Doug, for me to sit here and say, I think people are
stupid. You know, but that`s not the case. It is human nature that we, as
human beings, are susceptible to emotion and susceptible to the emotion of
fear. We are susceptible to fear.

And there`s one political party in this country that has really built their
house on how to get political power and that is by having a lot of doors
you got to go through to be afraid of, so to speak.

I do believe that fear-mongering has had an adverse effect on people in the
country and push away the fact or any realism and they end just up voting
against their own best interest.

Our next question comes from Shay. "Will you endorse Wendy Davis for Texas

I would endorse Wendy Davis to stay in public office. And if I were Wendy
Davis, I would not limit myself to think about just being the governor of

I think that she is a star. I think she has guts, the political moxie.
She is exactly what women in this country have been begging for.

Hillary Clinton has blazed a trail and there have been others but it seems
to me that in this war on women that has taken place, all of a sudden,
there is a Wendy Davis from Texas who stands up and stands up strong and
goes through the process of the filibuster, making the point that this is
wrong, we need to stop this radical charge against women. I think she is a
star and there a sense of realness about Wendy Davis.

Stick around. Senator Bernie Sanders joins me next on student loans.


SCHULTZ: Good to have you back with us. Thanks for watching tonight.

Now if you thought that the housing bubble was bad, you won`t believe the
new financial disaster, which is going to hit in about six and a half


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Student debt in this country has topped $1 trillion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The $1 trillion mark.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One trillion dollars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One trillion dollars, and that`s a record. It`s also
more than Americans owe on credit cards.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do student debt the next bubble to burst?


SCHULTZ: So the student loan debt crisis will go basically from bad to
worse at midnight tonight. Because the do-nothing Congress, they just
still cannot get their act together.

Now, we talked about this couple of months ago, warned you that it was
coming. Now, it is happening. Congress didn`t do anything. So, interest
rates on federal student loans are going to double on July 1st. The
interest rate on every subsidized loan will go from 3.4 percent to a
whopping 6.8 percent.

Now this is just another Republican attack on the middle class. This is
how the Republicans treat middle class Americans. This is what they really
think of future opportunity.

Americans have student loan debt and almost half of them say that they can
barely pay the bills under the old rates. Republicans had a chance to
freeze those punishing interest rates. But instead, they are on vacation
this week and there`s no plan to fix the problem. Basically, it seems like
they don`t give a damn.

Joining me tonight, someone who has been fighting this interest rate hike,
Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Senator, great to have you with us tonight.

Why do we have it the way it is? Why is this jump going to 6.8 percent?
What happened here?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: It`s part of legislation. We extended,
I believe it was, for two years the subsidization of the Stafford loan
program, keeping it at 3.4 percent. That expires tomorrow. Rates go up to
6.8 percent.

What many of us are trying to do, understanding this is an unmitigated
disaster, is to pass legislation as quickly as we can, keeping it at 3.4
percent while we work on long-term solution that will also maintain low
interest rates for middle class families.

SCHULTZ: Is this an easy lift in the Senate?

SANDERS: I think it is. I mean, I think we absolutely have virtually
every Democrat I suspect on board to say it is crazy to double interest
loans, to put young people in this country who desperately want to go to
college, who have the ability to go to college and say, you know what, I
can`t go to college. I just don`t want to get out of school $40,000,
$50,000, $60,000 in debt.

The average debt right now for a student is $27,000. Many are more deeply
in debt.

Ed, what sense does it make, for us as a country, to have bright young
people not going to college because they are worried about the debt? And
then you have the kids graduating college, deeply in debt, limited
opportunities, can`t buy a car, can`t buy a home, can`t get married, can`t
have kids, because they are saddled with this debt. This is a disaster.

SCHULTZ: Well, and then you`ve got a job market that is pretty soft right
now. It`s tough on 20-somethings coming out with a college degree. And
the average debt now, I believe, as you said over $20,000, almost robs
people of the American dream of owning a home some day. They get started
in their careers too late.

Now, John Boehner says Republicans passed a student loan bill and Democrat
are dragging their feet. What do you know about this over on the House

SANDERS: Sure. What I know about student, their solution, call for
variable interest rates. We all know that interest rates are low now and
going up. And under the Republican proposal, interest rates will go up
substantially, substantially higher than the 3.4 percent. It is a very,
very bad proposal.

SCHULTZ: Well, with the climate in Washington, it would seem to me this
wouldn`t move anywhere. Is this one of the --

SANDERS: I`m not so sure.


SANDERS: This is what I think, Ed. Look, you got millions and millions of
families. Who are hoping and praying that their kids can get college

And when they hear that our Republican friends in the House and some in the
Senate refuse to maintain low interest -- by the way, Ed, here is an
important point. The federal government today is making about $50 billion
a year in profit from these interest rates, which we should not be doing.
If we could bailout Wall Street some years ago, when their greed resulted
in the financial collapse of financial institutions, certainly we should
not be making huge profits on low income and middle class families.

There are a number of approaches that we can bring forward to keep interest
rates low. We should also be aware, Ed, that compared to our international
competition, there are schools all over Europe where kids are going to
school for virtually nothing and our rates, our cost of college, is off the
roof. From the competitive perspective, what we are doing is incredibly

SCHULTZ: Senator, you`ve got big banks getting money from the Federal
Reserve, at a quarter percent, what should the rate be for student today in
these economic times? And what would you be willing to settle for -- would
it be a window, a balloon, a low rate, give me your perfect world on this.

SANDERS: Well, short term, before we can get consensus for a long-term
plan, short term for two years, we should at least keep rates at 3.4
percent. Then I think the point you made and Senator Warren has made is
that the large, borrowing money of three quarters of 1 percent from the
Fed. If we can get Wall Street money at three quarters of 1 percent, why
should in God`s name does anybody think we should be charging student 6
percent, 8 percent and their families even more than that?

SCHULTZ: Senator, great to have you with us tonight. I appreciate your
time. Thanks for coming on THE ED SHOW. Thank you so much. Keep up the
fight, my friend.

SANDERS: Thank you.

SCHULTZ: Bernie Sanders, fighting for students again.

Tonight in our survey, I asked you, will the Republican Party ever treat
gay Americans as equals? Five percent of you say yes, 95 percent of you
say no.

A Minnesota businessman makes a run for Congress. But a big secret, could
cheese off a lot of his supporters.

Stay tuned.


SCHULTZ: And at "Pretenders" tonight, Minnesota Republican congressional
wannabe. Guys name is Stewart Mills.

The long-haired 41-year-old Minnesotan wants to challenge Democratic
Congressman Rick Nolan in Minnesota`s eighth congressional district.

Now, earlier this year, Mills recorded a video letter to Nolan, Senators
Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken, protesting any form of gun control.


STEWART MILLS: Hopefully, this video letter will educate and inform our
uninformed and misguided congressmen and senators about the issues they are
about to vote on.


SCHULTZ: Mills went on to demonstrate why Rick Nolan`s duck gun is more
dangerous than an AR-15. Out here in Minnesota, voters believe what Mills
is saying. But there is something else you need to know about this

Stewart Mills is part of the lucky sperm club. Mills is an heir to the
family owned chain of Mills fleet farm, stores which are located in 32
locations across the upper Midwest. Currently, the 41-year-old Mills is
the vice president of this growing company.

I`m sure Mills is a true believer in the second amendment but he has
another dog in the fight. Mills fleet farm sells almost everything,
including guns and ammunition.


MILLS: Huldra, line of rifles and accessories, exclusive to Mill farms,
has allowed our shooting department to be successful which in terms allowed
us to hire more people and continue to expand.


SCHULTZ: Mills has every right to use the First Amendment to scare his
customers about the second amendment. But he has a deep dark secret. A
local Minneapolis paper named the city pages outed Stewart Mills as a
cheese head.

This is a picture of Mills wearing an Aaron Rogers jersey in a luxury sky
box at Lambeau Field. Mills can be a gun-toting Republican successful
businessman and win one of Minnesota seats in Congress -- but if Stewart
Mills thinks he can be a die-hard Packer backer and win in Vikings
territory, he can just keep on pretending.


SCHULTZ: Get that card and punch the clock. This is a story for folks who
take a shower after work.

The outsourcing epidemic has been a big focus on this show over the past
four and a half years. Now, last year, we told you about workers at the
Sensata Technologies plant in Freeport, Illinois. In fact, we did our show
there. Sensata jobs were not only shipped to China, but the employees who
lost their jobs had to train the people who were taking hem. That`s right.

Sensata is owned by Bain Capital. Bain Capital, you know, the same Bain
Capital that made Mitt Romney millions. Sensata workers aren`t the only
ones dealing with outsourcing. There are many other Mitt Romneys and Bain
Capitals that are out there.

One of them is Charles Chips Stearns. His company, Specialty Medical
Supplies, produces things like glucose monitors and insulin supplies. When
he went to Beijing, China, to say that their jobs were being sent to India
-- here`s what happened.


REPORTER: Just behind me, Chip Stearns is being held captive at his
factory. And he and his lawyers are negotiating a deal with the workers so
that he can get out of there and go home.

Stearns says he`s being held because of rumors he is about to close his
entire plant. He said he only planned to move part of the business to

You feel like you paid part of the ransom?

CHIP STEARNS, BUSINESSMAN: Yes, 100 percent I got held for ransom. Every
single other person and 35 people that I let go had jobs there. Yes, the
payout was about, everything involved about $500,000, 600,000 in cash for
my freedom.


SCHULTZ: Well, for old Chip, it`s all about the bottom line. Cheap labor
in China just isn`t cheap enough for him.

Joining me now is Mike Papantonio, host of "Ring of Fire" radio show.

Who is this guy? This type of outsourcing to cut corners just isn`t for
the Bains of the world. There`s other folks out there. Who is this guy?

MIKE PAPANTONIO, HOST, "RING OF FIRE": Right. We used to expect large
corporation, this is where we`d hear the story, large tech corporations or
clothing corporation, but this Stearns character is the new Chamber of
Commerce model, Ed. He`s a character very much in the exploitation

The exploitation business of workers is usually not sustainable. It`s
because every generation wants to do better than the one before them. So,
in developing countries, where you don`t have a middleman, you don`t
middlemen union negotiators that work out these kinds of problems, a guy
like Stearns, it becomes the target.

It`s happening more and more in places like Turkey, China, South America,
where there`s this political awakening by the workers. We heard of the
Arab Spring. We`re going to start to see more and more of the workers
spring where you have a guy like Stearns set up in places like Beijing and
New Delhi, you`re going to have unhappy workers, they that gradually begin
these protests of every time, there might be a direct strike, there might
be violence involved, but there`s going to be more and more pushback, Ed.
And this is what Stearns is experiencing right now.

SCHULTZ: What about -- do you think that this could ignite more incidents
like this in China? You know, there are wage-conscious workers in China,
believe it or not. We`ve lost a boatload of jobs to them, no question
about it. But now, they`re even finding cheaper labor in India and other
parts of the world.

Your thoughts on this? I mean, are we going to see more of this in China?

PAPANTONIO: Yes, the system will always work towards equilibrium, Ed,
that`s what history shows. Any time you have this movement taking place
where you have a Stearns kind of character moving jobs out of the country
and he can go to places where there are no regulations no, pay standards,
no age standards for work, there`s nothing protecting the worker, every
generation becomes more aware of that. They become more experienced, they
become more educated. They become more sophisticated in the way they
protect themselves.

And Mr. Stearns sees they become more militant. The culture of sweat shop
countries, they advance, Ed, they advance. They start off with a
manufacturing labor force, unskilled labor, unskilled manufacturing labor
force, that then evolves into a more skilled labor force. That`s what`s
happening in China right now.

SCHULTZ: This guy right here is being passed off as a victim.


SCHULTZ: Like it`s OK to treat workers and find that lowest common
denominator. I find it interesting that the Chinese workers were really
the first one -- I mean, when was the last time we saw a story like this on
a global level? I mean, this is a global story that`s being told. These
Chinese workers may have done labor the biggest favor that they`ve ever

Your thoughts?

PAPANTONIO: Well, it`s happening in small stories that we don`t see. It
was interesting that he was put behind bars, that`s a great thing. He
probably deserves to be behind bars when you take a look at the entire back
story, but the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Ed, has unleashed these Stearns
characters all over the world, where they think they can go into country,
low pay, no regulations and not just the large corporations doing that any

The more we see these Stearns characters showing up in places like India
and China, the more we`ll see this movement. The movement has the
potential to take on steam. And I`m telling you, they want bigger shares
of the profits. They understand as they become more sophisticated, every
generation starts to get it.

SCHULTZ: Of course, our Congress sits idle. They think that this kind of
activity is just the way you do business. Crap on American workers -- in
fact, do it wherever you can around the globe, it doesn`t matter. Don`t
care about workers` rights whatsoever.

Washington just has not done enough to keep jobs in this country.

Mike Papantonio, great to have you with us tonight. Thanks so much.
Appreciate your time.

And next week, folk, I`m going to be broadcasting live from the Essence
Festival in New Orleans, Louisiana. You can catch a special edition of THE
ED SHOW on Friday at 4:00 p.m., then we`re back again on Saturday and
Sunday. We`re going to be live at noon Eastern.

I`ll also be doing a meet and greet with the folks down there in New
Orleans at the convention. You can check our Web site and find out details
about that. Looking forward to seeing the great TV and radio viewers and
listeners to THE ED SHOW down in New Orleans.

That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed Schultz. Have a good one.

We`re back next Friday.



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