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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, July 18th, 2013

Read the transcript from the Thursday show

July 18, 2013
Guests: Dwight Bullard, Phillip Agnew, Ilyse Hogue, Rachel Sklar, Ezra
Klein, Kevin Nazemi

CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Good evening, from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Tonight, on ALL IN:

There`s a simple, humane and perfectly reasonable solution to the
tragic case of a Florida woman spending 20 years in jail for firing a
warning shot at her allegedly abusive husband -- Governor Rick Scott pardon
Marissa Alexander. More on this in a moment.

Also tonight, the firestorm over the cover of "Rolling Stone" is
taking a new turn this evening, as an outraged member of the Massachusetts
State Police responds by releasing dramatic new photos of the night
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was taken into custody. Those red dots, the laser sites
of a police sniper. More on that coming up.

Plus, the new era of entrepreneurism in the age of Obamacare.
Tonight, I`ll talk with one of the founders of startup health care company
built to compete with the big boys and made possible by the Affordable Care

That is all tonight.

But we begin tonight in Florida, where Governor Rick Scott, absent
from the capitol, as pressure mounts for him to address his constituents`
outrage in the wake of the George Zimmerman verdict. Today is a third day
a group of activists dedicated to nonviolent civil disobedience have
occupied the capitol in Tallahassee.

They call themselves the Dream Defenders. Their demands are simple.
They`re calling on Rick Scott to convene a special legislative session to
address the state`s "Stand Your Ground" law, and a new civil rights bill,
the Trayvon Martin Act.

They say they`re not leaving until they meet the governor. Rick
Scott, for his part, is staying far, far away. In fact, he hasn`t appeared
in the capitol publicly since last Tuesday.

But today, even as Rick Scott does his best to avoid Tallahassee, he
could not avoid questions about "Stand Your Ground".


REPORTER: Florida "Stand Your Ground" law has been getting a lot of
attention recently. Do you believe that law needs another look?

GOV. RICK SCOTT (R), FLORIDA: I put together a task force of 19
individuals, bipartisan. They travel the state. They listen to ordinary
citizens. They listen to experts and they concluded that we didn`t need to
make a change to the law and I agree with their conclusion.


REPORTER: So you`re comfortable with it?



HAYES: But tonight, it became clear that Scott`s defense of the law
will absolutely not be the last word. Because just hours ago, Trayvon
Martin`s parents appearing here on MSNBC with Reverend Al Sharpton
discussed their plans to participate in vigils this weekend in support of a
bill that would end "Stand Your Ground" in Florida as we know it.


says that you cannot pursue, you cannot follow, chase someone, pick a fight
with them, shoot and kill them and then say you were standing your ground.


HAYES: Now, the focus on Florida`s "Stand Your Ground" law in the
wake of the Zimmerman verdict has also put pressure on Rick Scott to
intervene in the tragic case of Marissa Alexander, one we`ve been
highlighting on ALL IN all week.

Alexander is a mother of three who fired what she described as a
warning shot at her allegedly abusive husband. She`s now serving a 20-year
sentence despite attempting to invoke Florida`s "Stand Your Ground" law.
And now, a state senator in Florida is calling for Scott to pardon
Alexander, as Floridians turn their attention to her story in the wake of
Zimmerman`s acquittal.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right this minute, there`s a push for a new
trial for a mom sentenced to 20 years in jail for firing a gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marissa Alexander just starting her second year of
a 20-year sentence doesn`t get much to look forward to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The criminal case involving a local woman is back
in the spotlight in the aftermath of the George Zimmerman trial.


HAYES: Joining me now from Florida who is the state senator who is
calling for Marissa Alexander to be pardoned. Dwight Bullard, a Democratic
senator. Also sponsored legislation to repeal the "Stand Your Ground" law.

Senator, my first question for you, why have you become involved in
this case? Why are you making this appeal to Governor Rick Scott?

convinced social justice is necessary for the people of Florida. When we
look at the plethora of things our Governor Scott has chosen to ignore,
whether it`s health care for the neediest Floridian, or seeking justice for
Marissa Alexander, there has to be a time when we draw a line in the sand
and that time is now.

HAYES: Watching the reaction to the verdict and watching things in
Florida right now, it`s hard to get a sense of what the mood is in the
state there and in the state capitol, particularly.

Do you think the governor is feeling any fallout from this verdict
from his task force which he keeps pawning the "Stand Your Ground" law on,
from the mounting pressure for him to pardon Marissa Alexander? Is the
governor being held to account there, or is this kind of a passing thing
that will be gone in a week?

BULLARD: Well, in hearing the governor`s response to the question he
was asked earlier, it was very odd because just today the co-chair of his
now infamous task force has come out and said that the governor did the
opposite. He ignored suggestions made by the task force that could very
well change "Stand Your Ground".

HAYES: That task force was convened and appointed by the governor and
a lot of people are looking to see that law amended in the "Trayvon Martin
Act" as you heard Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin`s mother, today.

What kind of legislation do you want to see move toward forward on
that account?

BULLARD: Well, I`ve given the governor a number of options. I`ve
sponsored full-on appeals of "Stand Your Ground". I`ve also sponsored an
amendment to "Stand Your Ground", as well as my colleague Senator Chris
Smith, Representative Alan Williams (ph), any number of members of the
state legislature have offered up suggestions.

But to ignore your own task force suggestions and then go around and
saying that there were no suggestions offered is a flat-out lie and it`s
unfortunate that the governor`s chosen to take that strong position
considering that his very own task force did, in fact, make suggestions.

HAYES: On the case of "Stand Your Ground", obviously, that`s
legislation. It would have to work through a house and state Senate that
are both, I believe, controlled by Republicans at the moment.

In terms of Marissa Alexander, the governor does have, am I correct,
the governor does have unilateral power as the governor to grant her mercy
or commute her sentence or to pardon her?

BULLARD: He very well does, and that`s exactly why I`ve asked for the

The reality is the injustice shown in Marissa Alexander in light of
the recent luck that we`ll call it that George Zimmerman received via the
verdict this past weekend shows that the "Stand Your Ground" law is too
vague. It`s too vague. That`s why we need to address that.

But more importantly, the injustice shown in Marissa Alexander
specifically, someone who in receiving threats, in being tormented by her
husband, chose to defend herself and truly stand her ground, is somehow
doing 20 years in prison. That injustice cannot stand, and I for one will
not allow it.

HAYES: Do you have an open line to Governor Scott? Is he receptive
to this? Do you have a way of communicating with him? Have you spoken
with him about this?

BULLARD: Well, as you pointed out, governor Scott has not been to the
capitol and really hasn`t been seen around Tallahassee since last week,
unfortunately. I`m looking forward to his response, and being an elected
politician here in the state of Florida, much like the governor, I expect
to receive a response, even in the form of a letter.

Or more importantly, I think there needs to be a call to the governor.
Actually, I think there are needs to be several calls to the governor from
everyone who believes in rights and justice of Marissa Alexander.

HAYES: Florida State Senator Dwight Bullard, thank you so much for
your time.

BULLARD: Thank you.

HAYES: Joining me now from the capitol in Tallahassee, Florida,
Phillip Agnew, the executive director of Dream Defenders. That is the
group that has been occupying the capitol.

Phillip, tell me about why you are sleeping in the capitol. And
explain to me why I shouldn`t view you as a bunch of misguided, idealistic
kids who are expressing sour grapes over a verdict that didn`t go their

PHILIP AGNEW, DREAM DEFENDERS: Right. That`s a great question,
Chris, and I appreciate you having us on. It`s important to recognize that
last week didn`t just send shockwaves across Florida but sent shockwaves
across the nation. What that verdict did was show the nation that Florida
didn`t really value its youth.

And so though we could be angry, right, and though we could destroy
cities, as the media say we`d like to do, we decided to direct our anger in
a way that moves us forward, in a way that recognizes the wrong and the
injustice that it`s done to Trayvon Martin and to his family and galvanize
the anger around this at the capitol.

And you asked about misguided youth. I think that`s a notion that
young people have gotten for a little while. And I think it`s misguided
because we know what we`re doing.

We`ve arrived at the seat of power. We`re human beings. We`re
citizens of the state of Florida who have a right to petition our
government when a grievance has been committed and a wrong has been done to

And we`re presenting an option for the governor, an opportunity like
Senator Bullard is as well, to right this wrong, to right this ship of a
wayward ship that he`s overseeing and to really give an opportunity for a
young people in the state of Florida, hopefully young people around the
country, to produce something out of this injustice that really moves our
community forward, and it`s the "Trayvon Martin Civil Rights Act".

HAYES: Tell me about the demand you`re making. I understand there
are between 30 and 90 members of your group that have been in the capitol
full time for the past few days. You`re asking for a "Trayvon Martin Civil
Rights Act".

What does that piece of legislation look like?

AGNEW: So what we`ve done -- you know, legislators have a really hard
job, so what we`ve done as young people around the state is try to do a
little bit of work to bring something to the table here in this case. So,
we consider three pillars that we believe contributed to the environment in
the state of Florida that created a George Zimmerman and that snuffed out
Trayvon Martin.

And so, those three pillars are the "Stand Your Ground" law. We agree
it needs to be repealed. Laws are supposed to prevent violence, not
encourage and protect violent offenders.

Racial profiling, we know that it`s a problem rampant around the
country, especially here in Florida, and we think this is an opportunity to
change that.

And also, the war on youth, more specifically, the school-to-prison
pipeline which Florida is number one in.

So we feel if you are able to attack those three pillars, we can move
to a place where young people actually have an opportunity to feel safe and
feel productive and live fulfilling lives here in Florida.

HAYES: Phillip Agnew, from the Dream Defenders, currently occupying
the capitol. When are you going to leave, and have you heard from the

AGNEW: We`re not going to leave until our demand is met. Our demand
isn`t just for meeting with the governor. Our demand is not just for an
audience with the governor. Our demand is for him to call a special
session of the legislature and convene that to discuss this bill.

And so, we won`t leave knoll we get that demand met. So I think it`s
important that we realize the urgency of this situation. We know the
weight of such a decision to call people from around the state here to
Tallahassee, but we feel like we are in a state of emergency as young
people in this state and I think young people around the country feel the
same. We`re ready act on it.

HAYES: Phillip Agnew from the Dream Defenders, it`s really a pleasure
speaking to you tonight. Thank you very much.

AGNEW: All right. Thank you for having me.

HAYES: Coming up, an ALL IN investigation. Did protesters really try
to smuggle jars of poop into the Texas capitol building as officials there
claim? Why we think something stinks, next.


HAYES: Last night, we laid out the reasons New York City Police
Commissioner Ray Kelly should not be the next Department of Homeland
Security chief. Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York told me that
Kelly`s massive stop and frisk program and the sprawling surveillance of
Muslim New Yorkers are good reasons to oppose a potential Kelly nomination.

Today, there`s word that Kelly is open to taking the job if given the
opportunity. At least that`s the word from Kelly`s biggest Republican
booster in Congress, Peter King of Long Island. As long as Kelly`s name is
still in the mix, we will keep making sure that people know his record.


HAYES: There`s news of a strange twist in a mystery unfolding in the
Texas capitol tonight: the case of the 18 jars of feces.

You may remember that last week, as citizens and activists crowded
into the capitol to watch them pass a fiercely contested antiabortion bill,
many were instructed by troopers checking bags to forfeit their feminine
hygiene products. Photos like this one of the tampon confiscation were
posted to Twitter Friday night and the whole thing struck many both inside
and outside of Texas as a perfect symbol for Texas Republicans` contempt
for women and their lady parts.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I read somewhere that their periods attract bears.
The bears can smell the menstruation.


HAYES: And when we contacted the Texas Department of Public Safety to
ask whether they had, in fact, been confiscating tampons from women trying
to enter the Senate chambers, they sent along a press release explaining
they were forced to take away ladies` feminine products because they,
quote, "received information that individuals planned to use a variety of
items or props to disrupt legislative proceedings."

But that`s not all. They further reported, having discovered during
their bag searches, quote, "one jar suspected to contain urine and 18 jars
suspected to contain feces. All these items were required to be discarded.
Otherwise, those individuals were denied entry into the gallery."

Now, we reported on this at the time and I have to say, even then,
this explanation struck me as a bit odd. First off, because it seemed
completely implausible that security at the capitol would confiscate a jar
of feces the protester was about to take into the Senate chamber and allow
said protester to enter the chamber after confiscating their smuggled poop.

But I was also a bit suspicious about the phrase jars suspected to
contain feces. You see, I happen to be the father of a 20-month-old, and I
know firsthand that suspicion of the presence of feces is not a suspicion
that lasts very long. It can be verified one way or the other pretty

How was it that Texas officers hadn`t confirmed whether they were or
were not in the possession of more than a dozen jars of poop?

And now, my suspicions are starting to seem very well-founded. "The
Texas Tribune" reports that on Friday, the same day all those suspect jars
were allegedly discovered, they spoke with officers outside the Senate
gallery and at each entrance to the capitol and none of them had seen or
found jars containing feces of urine. And, quote, "multiple officers
throughout the capitol said they had not heard of any jars being found
until a reporter mentioned it."

For its part, the Texas Department of Public Safety is standing by its
initial claim but they appear to be short of any kind of proof. In a
letter responding to questions from a Democratic state rep, the director of
the Department of Public Safety writes, quote, "The suspicious jars, cans
and other items were not confiscated. The visitor had the option of
storing the items elsewhere or discarding them in trash boxes provided by
the state protection board."

Next you know, they`ll have us believe they`re providing a
complimentary, quote, "poop jar" check, the protesters just dropped off
their jars of excrement on the way into the Senate chamber and picked them
up on their way out.

What all this means is that the mystery behind the case of the
suspected jars of feces may never be definitively solved. Did the Texas
Department of Public Safety slander women`s rights protesters, or were they
bizarrely differential and polite to a punch of poop wielding hecklers? We
may never know.

What we do know is that the Republican bill designed to shut down most
of the state`s clinics really riled up the electorate in Texas. And today
as demonstrators gathered in the capitol to protest, without, as far as we
can tell, a single jar of human waste among them, Rick Perry signed that
bill into law.

The activists who fought against this bill as it moved through the
legislature are not going away. They`re simply refocusing the fight.

Joining me now is Ilyse Hogue, Texan and president of NARAL Pro-Choice

It`s really good to have you here.


HAYES: So, the first question is, why should I not feel deflated and
bummed out? And Wendy Davis had this amazing filibuster. It galvanized
public opinion.

But Rick Perry just called another special session, they pushed the
thing through. Now, he`s signing it. There`s 100 Republicans at the
signing. They`re all celebrating. They won, we lost.

HOGUE: Well, I mean, I think when your opposition has to resort to
the "we`re losing, we`re losing, we`re losing -- hey, look, poop" defense,
that we`ve got a lot to be optimistic about.

Look, I`m a Texan. I`ve never seen energy like this in my adult life.

HAYES: Are you just saying that or do you actually mean that?

HOGUE: I really do mean that. I really do mean that.

I think what else was notable about it was the nationalization of a
fight that everyone recognizes as their own. We were getting calls from
all over the country saying, what can I do to help the women in Texas?
What can I do to help the women in North Carolina?

There was this recognition that fate are all (ph) interlinked, that
this is a strategy, state by state, clinic by clinic. Shut it down. We`re
all in this together.

And I`ve not seen that before.

HAYES: In terms of shutting down clinics, these laws are obviously
designed to do that. In fact, one of the law`s chief supporters,
Lieutenant Governor Dewhurst, admitted as much when he tweeted out a
Planned Parenthood tweet about the fact the law is designed to shut them
down. He said, yes, this is why we`re passing it.

And sure enough. Here`s the announcement today. Planned Parenthood
announced the planned closure of three Texas clinics today. The combined
impact of budget cuts to women`s health care services and the dismantling
of the successful women`s health program will take affordable, preventative
health care options away from women in Bryan, Lufkin and Huntsville, just
as these policies have taken health care away from estimated 130,000

HOGUE: It makes me very sad. This is my home state. It makes me
very sad for the women.

There are vast stretches in Texas where there`s not even basic access
t health care, much less the kind of reproductive care that women seek.
When they`re desperate for help, and we`re already seeing the results of
restricted access, right? There was another study, 7 percent of women have
such restrictive access, they`re trying to get abortions -- they`re trying
to self-aboard first.

HAYES: I want to hammer this home. This is a really jaw-dropping
statistic. A study out saying 7 percent of women in the state of Texas
already before the bill passed were trying first to self-abort before
seeking medical attention.

And we could only imagine that if the number of clinics in that state
go down, then you are going to see more of them.

HOGUE: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, we`re going to see
women die. We`re going to see more Kermit Gosnells cropping up all over.
I think people really understand and they`re starting to understand that
when we outlawed alcohol, it just meant violent gangs, controlled liquor,
right? When we try to teach abstinence, sex ed, kids just get pregnant.

HAYES: Right.

HOGUE: Every single study shows when you outlaw abortion, you don`t
stop women from seeking control over her own destiny. You just drive up
deaths and injuries.

HAYES: OK. So what`s the next step in this fight? Rick Perry and
the Texas Republicans won this round. These clinics are shutting down.

North Carolina is well on its way to signing probably having that law
signed, although McCrory has been a little equivocal about whether he`s
going to sign this bill.

What`s the next step in this fight?

HOGUE: I mean, I think everybody is ready to pull out all the stops.
I think we`re going to see litigation in some of these cases. You`re even
talking about Ohio. Where I think we`re going to see the impact is at the
ballot box. I think McCrory has seen his favorabilities go down 15 points
since the beginning of June when he had to deal with this issue. We`re
seeing in North Carolina a lot of people oppose the bill, 80 percent of
North Carolinians oppose how it went down.

What we`re seeing is a desperate GOP driven by extreme ideologues
saying the --

HAYES: As a native Texas, the Democratic Party has been just moribund
for literally decades. That`s the honest truth about the Democratic Party
in Texas. You don`t have to agree. But --

HOGUE: I`m not going to agree, because I think we`ve been seeing
organizing in corners. We`re seeing a demographic shift there. We`re
seeing more women like Wendy Davis take office.

HAYES: Right. But is it -- the point is, what happened there at the
capitol, which everyone in Texas say they`re never seen anything like it,
what happened there in the capitol, is that the springboard for something
past today?

HOGUE: Absolutely. I think it is. They`re continuing to overreach.
They introduced a bill today saying, we want a 20-week ban? Let`s ban
abortion at six weeks. This shows their cards on the table and I think
it`s big trouble for them.

HAYES: Elise Hogue from NARAL Pro-Choice America, thank you so much.

HOGUE: Thank you.

HAYES: There`s breaking news on the story we brought you in Florida
earlier. Phillip Agnew of the Dream Defenders back with us.

Phillip, are you there?

AGNEW: I`m here. I`m here. Long time, no see.

HAYES: Yes, how have you been? What`s going on?

AGNEW: Well, I just got word from our team inside that the governor
has agreed to meet with us. So, we`re excited about that, but the fact is
our demand sill hasn`t been met.

HAYES: So the governor actually has reached out and says he`s going
to meet with the Dream Defenders. You just got word of that just now?

AGNEW: Right. I just got word of it.

HAYES: I`ve known for quite a while Rick Scott secretly watched ALL
IN every night. But now, I think we have actual confirmation.


AGNEW: Yes, we do. And, you know, we`re planning on meeting and
we`re still holding hard to our demand. I think it`s important that people
know when you draw a line in the sand, you stick with that line.
Compromise is good, but we`ve made a demand. We want that special session.

HAYES: So, you -- the occupation will proceed until there is a
special session called by the governor. In the interim, the governor
reached out to the Dream Defenders occupying the capitol the last several
days and said he will meet with you after being absent from the capitol
since last Tuesday.

Thanks really quite something.

AGNEW: Yes. Welcome home, Governor Scott.

HAYES: Phillip Agnew from the Dream Defenders, thank you so much.

All right. Up next, you`ve probably seen the controversy surrounding
around the new "Rolling Stones" cover. But if you think this image of
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is interesting, wait until you see the new ones the
Boston police just released of the alleged murderer at his moment of

We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Extremists are trying to recruit young people for
jihad. That is just a known fact. And this could give jihad --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- another recruiting tool.

You know, 72 virgins, that`s interesting to some. But the cover of
the "Rolling Stones," that`s delicious.


HAYES: Setting off social media, creating instant avalanche of
criticism debate is this. "Rolling Stone" cover of Boston bombing Dzhokhar
Tsarnaev. The picture has been dubbed a glam celebrity-like treatment of a
terrorist, giving him rock star treatment. Many outlets, including
Walgreens, CVS Pharmacy, Rite and Kmart refuse to sell it.

"Rolling Stone" has defended the piece on Tsarnaev as responsibility
dealing with an important issue.

Joining me now is Rachel Sklar, co-founder of The List, a media
networking company for women. She`s also contributor to

Rachel, you wrote a piece about why you found this distasteful. And
the reason I want to have you on is because I got into bed last night with
my wife and I was talking to her, I don`t understand why people are upset
about this cover. She was like, I think it`s disgusting.

I`ve been surprised how massively polarizing it seems along surprising
lines, not necessarily predictable ones. So, when I read your piece, I
wouldn`t have necessarily pegged Rachel to think that why.

Why do you think it`s distasteful?

RACHEL SKLAR, COFOUNDER, THELIST: I found it very irresponsibly
glamorizing, and it`s because of what the context of "Rolling Stone" is.
It is a magazine, and, yes, it publishes lots of interesting journalism
that has nothing to do with music but the cover is always about some rock
star or a movie star, or someone famous.

HAYES: Right.

SKLAR: And, the example of Charles Manson being on it in 1970 has
been brought up. I don`t actually find that very compelling, just also
it`s 1970. You know, --

HAYES: Well, also that is pretty -- I actually think that was more
distasteful than this. So, I actually think the Manson one was glamorizing
with Manson. Well, here`s my feeling about this image. This is -- first
of all, an interesting image.


HAYES: Second of all, it seems like people are mad at "Rolling Stone"
because people find this person, this individual accused of an absolutely
horrific disgusting crime physically attractive, that he`s a good looking
young man and he took a selfie.

And, it seems to me like part of the goal of this image is to make
people stop and think about the line that separates a normal person from
someone capable of doing something monstrous.

SKLAR: Yes. And, that is what the article is about --

HAYES: Which is fantastic.

SKLAR: -- And, in the context of the article --

HAYES: The article is fantastic -- Yes.

SKLAR: In the context of the article, this picture would be very
appropriate and this photo was on the cover of "The New York Times." And,
in a news context, you could understand it and place it in context. But,
on "Rolling Stone," on the cover of the "Rolling Stone," he looks like a
stroke. He looks like a Jonas Brother. He looks like someone who would be
dating Taylor Swift.

HAYES: Right.

SKLAR: He doesn`t look like --

HAYES: And, there is no way -- so, what you are saying is the
combination of this magazine with this cover, there so no way to escape
that. So, here`s my other question.


HAYES: These new photos that were put out by tactical photographer, I
believe from the Massachusetts State police, which are incredibly intense
about the moments of this capture. If that were on the cover, would that
do the same thing? But, in some ways this seems almost more glorifying,
like him as this bloody warrior.

SKLAR: I think that the point of this image is it`s really
inescapable to think that the "Rolling Stone" editors wouldn`t have thought
about the effects of this cover and what it looked like. And, I understand
that they wanted to point out that, you know, all terrorists don`t come
packaged like caricatures who are angry and unattractive, that they can be
people who walk among us. I get that.

But, when your first encounter with the magazine is the cover and
seeing it packaged like a rock star, it gives the impression that this kid
is something of a rock star. And there are, you know, that has an impact.
There are -- he has fans. He has -- there`s a whole, like, free Dzhokhar

HAYES: Yes. There is a very creepy, weird subculture of particularly
teenagers who are kind of devoted to him as this kind of cult figure on the
internet. That I totally agree.

SKLAR: Of course, for youths who are troubled and who might seek, you
know, evidence that this is --

HAYES: OK. But, here`s -- Yes. All that seems possible to me.

SKLAR: Right.

HAYES: But, it also seems like part of the controversy is being
stirred up by people who want to bully us into not talking about what the
motivations of someone who did this could be, right? I mean that`s part of
-- I think like I saw Michelle Malkin tweet about this and say like --

SKLAR: One of the rare instances on which we agree.

HAYES: Right. And, I think maybe I was doing that thing which is
always dangerous, which is trying to reason as a bank shot off someone I
generally disagree with. And, I was like, "Well, she`s against the image,
so maybe I`m for it." But, you`re actually somewhat persuasive. So, I am
now reconsidering my view -- you and my wife.

SKLAR: I think it glamorizes it. I mean I think it`s really hard to
take the two things away. The fact that it`s an appealing cover that would
look good to someone who, you know, idolizes rock stars.

HAYES: Right.

SKLAR: It`s hard to differentiate without the context. And, yes, it
says that he`s a monster. And, yes --

HAYES: But, you`re right. You are totally right that people are
going to see the cover and not read the article because that`s the nature
of magazine covers. We all see magazine covers. Rachel Sklar from "The
List." Thank you so much.

SKLAR: Thank you.

HAYES: We will be right back with Click 3.


HAYES (voice-over): When President Obama won re-election on November
6th of last year, it was widely accepted. He just completed his last
political campaign. But, today, we saw our president fully engaged in
another campaign in the fate of his legacy could defend on its success.
That`s coming up. >

But, first, I want to share three awesomest things on the internet
today. We begin across the pond with what is being called the "Great Kate
Wait." The Royal baby will be here any day now. At least that`s what
people on T.V. known as royal watchers tell us.

People who care about this sort of thing are seeking to commemorate
the event with souvenirs and people are hoping to profit off this sort of
thing are seeking to commemorate the event through gambling. At the
European online Gamblers Paradise Paddy Power, one can place a bet on
everything from the latest horse race to the existence of aliens. And, now
one can play the odds with a house of Windsor`s newest addition.

This week the website is taking bets on what the name will be with
Alexandria and George leading the pack. Fergie was 500 blue shot. And,
for those hoping for something even more unconventional as CBS News reports
both Pocahontas and hashtag are long shots.

If names are not your thing, there are other bets you could place
including the age the baby will be when the newspaper publishes a
photograph of him or her entering or leaving a nightclub that serves
alcohol. I suppose that all depends on how often Uncle Harry is allowed to
baby sit.

The second awesomest thing on the internet brings us to the world of
gymnastics. A competitive sport where young athletes strive for
perfection. It`s about to get even tougher. As Iowa 9 reports, one
Youtube user has engineered an army of robot gymnasts. It sounds
terrifying but it looks amazing. Here`s one doing some horizontal bar


HAYES (voice-over): Now, I for one think that is pretty great.
Notice it sticks the landing. Although, it looks like the judge is not

And, the third awesomest thing on the internet today, an ode to
another magical machine, the mighty escalator. Escalators are our friends.
They transport us to different floors in the same building when it`s too
damn hot to take the stairs. So, it is very disturbing to find out the
great state of Wyoming has only two of them.

Yes, two escalators in the entire state. Back in 2008, one
enterprising reporter, Megan Lee of the Casper Star Tribune set out to
count all the state`s vertical people movers. Here`s video of Casper`s
Hilltop National Bank, the home of one escalator.

And, lee later discovered that a different Casper Bank housed the
state`s other escalator. With Liz Cheney announcing she`s running for
senate in the equality state, some got to thinking about Wyoming`s current
escalator status as the Atlantic found out not much has changed. The state
still only has two escalators, one per U.S. Senator.

Of course, Cheney the younger grew up in Virginia where they grow
their escalators big, giving way for the latest Mike Enzi attack at
Wyoming, you take the stairs. Tell Liz Cheney to take a hike. You can
find all the links for tonight`s #Click3 on our website, We`ll be right back.




working hard to make sure that this law delivers for their people, we`re
seeing is that consumers are getting a hint of how much money they are
potentially going to save. The affordable care act is doing what it`s
designed to do. Deliver more choices, better benefits, a check on rising
costs, and higher quality health care.


HAYES: That was president Obama earlier today at the White House in
what is best understood as a campaign appearance in what the "Washington
Post" has called Obama`s last campaign. The president`s full-scale effort
to cement his legacy by getting the public to understand and by into the
about to be implemented core of the affordable care act.

The president knows more than three years since signing the affordable
care act into law. The public has been either skeptical or pretty much
clueless about how the law will work. That ignorance is helping to fuel
the ongoing republican efforts to dismantle it.

But, starting in about three months, those who are currently uninsured
will be able to get the insurance through exchanges, which, if set up
properly, will allow you to buy health insurance the same way Orbitz allows
you to buy a plane ticket. It will allow you to compare prices and
purchase a plan that best suits you.

Our report out today by the department of health and human services
finds that this type of competition will lower premiums by nearly 20
percent. And, here in New York, health plan costs next year are set to be
at least 50 percent lower on average.

In the front page piece for the "Washington Post" title, "Obama`s Last
Campaign" has recline in Sarah`s clip, "No, the campaign to sell the
affordable care act will have to go beyond the success being touted in New

The administration needs to build more insurance marketplaces than
they ever expected and create unprecedented I.T. infrastructure and somehow
work with red state bureaucracies that want to see Obama care fail even the
most tuned in health care consultants have trouble predicting whether the
federal government can get the law off the ground. Joining me now is
MSNBC policy analyst, Ezra Klein, also a columnist of the "Washington
Post," editor of Wonk Blog. You and Sarah did a fantastic job with this


HAYES: The best long read on health care implementation. I`ve read
all week, definitely.


KLEIN: I know, that is a very tough competition there.

HAYES: Very tough competition. So, what I thought was fascinating
about it. There has been so much kind of hype and, you know, scare
mongering about the implementation of this bill. What I thought was really
interesting was the frame of it being a campaign. Why is it being seen
inside the White House like a campaign?

KLEIN: We wanted to do is get away a little bit from this Washington
conversation, which democrats like Obama Care and republicans hate it.
And, I kind of figure out, there are these people, thousands and thousands
of people actually trying to make this thing work.

And, how are they thinking about it and what we found at the White
House level, the national level. The way they are thinking about it. Is
it the core of the bill? Are these insurance marketplaces in each state?

And, in order to make those marketplaces work, they need enough young
and healthy people that the premiums don`t skyrocket because, you know,
insurance premiums are an average of the expected health care costs.

HAYES: You got a pool of risk.

KLEIN: You have old, sick people, it gets very expensive. So, you
need these 2.7 billion younger, healthy people for the first year to make
it work. These people, a part of them live in Texas, California, and New

They tell 55 percent, I believe are minority. They skew male. And,
the way the White House is looking at going to get them is micro-targeting,
modeling. It knows what television shows they watch --

HAYES: Like Obama`s orders, right?

KLEIN: And, you hear them talk about it and it sounds exactly like
the campaign.

HAYES: It`s like we got these 2.7 million that we got to go out and
find and we got -- and here`s the thing that I -- my first thought, when I
read this about this campaign, I thought wait a second, didn`t we have this
entire national fight about the mandate? How is it that they have to make
sure they join the exchanges if they are mandated by the law to join the
exchanges? What am I not getting?

KLEIN: Well, people, though -- I mean the mandate is something you
can pay, right? In year one, you can just pay $95 bucks and not during the
law. So, in the year one, you want them in there. So, you could wait
until the end of the year and this penalty kicks in and maybe because of
the penalty a bunch of people come in for year two when prices are already
possibly going up because they weren`t there in year one.

You don`t want that. You want to get them in on the front end, and
you don`t want it to be something you`re forcing them to do. You want to
tell people, they want to tell people. Look, this is a good deal for you.
This is a good insurance marketplace where in many cases subsidizing you,
giving you financial help to get in there. They don`t want have an
outreach campaign. They don`t want to be doing it on the back and with the

HAYES: One of the things you compare is the implementation from
Medicare Part D Prescription Drug Benefit under George W. Bush. I remember
a reporter in Chicago going to a senior center on the northwest side and
listening to a spiel given about how people are going to enroll and
everyone was freaked out, confused and terrified.

I, myself, was sitting there like, being like I understood absolutely
none of this. And, I remember -- I think I actually wrote an article being
like this, "This is going to be a train wreck." It wasn`t a train wreck.

It has been months before it launched in 2006, Medicare Part D was
less popular than today`s affordable care act. 21 percent of the public
viewed favorably. While 66 percent did not understand how it work.

Medicare Part D has more than 50 million beneficiaries. It`s
extremely popular. And, someone who helped oversee Medicare Part D took
exception to that. Here is Karl Rove taking a shot at you on Fox News


Klein who is a liberal blogger and perhaps the biggest cheerleader the
"Washington Post" has for President Obama is absolutely wrong about that.
Yes, the program was not as popular.

Only 21 percent in one poll said they understood it well enough and
knew what it was going to do. There was a large amount of people not
paying any attention to it whatsoever because it was senior prescription
drug coverage.


KLEIN: You are not going to get smeared by Karl Rove --

HAYES: I know.

KLEIN: Why even get up to go to work in the morning?

HAYES: I`m just disappointed you didn`t bring your pompoms, frankly.

KLEIN: What so funny about that line is he doesn`t end up disagreeing

HAYES: Disagreeing with you. Right.

KLEIN: -- with anything we wrote there. Look, the pole -- and we
mention to those who didn`t understand -- just kind of be nice to Medicare
Part D. At that point, about 21 percent had a favorable view and 34
percent had an unfavorable view. Later in the year, it went down to 6
percent net unfavorable.

Generally, speaking, Obama Care is in this kind of 3 to 8 percent net
unfavorable range. But, the point we`re making is a different point than
Obama Care is going to be like Medicare part D. I wouldn`t take that
analogy. The thing about Medicare Part D is democrats who largely didn`t
support it decided after it passed to help out with it.

And, we, quote to this great hearing from the senate aging committee
where herb Cole, the top democrat on committee from Wisconsin say, "Look, I
don`t like this law. It`s going terribly, but we all have to put aside
partisan considerations and help to make it work and figure out how to make
it work." And, that is something the Obama administration cannot rely on.

HAYES: The favorite anecdote about that, is a staffer of a democratic
senator who voted for Medicare Part D sitting in the senate chamber is
turning during the vote for Medicare Part D and says, "Well, I guess I got
to go vote for this piece of mess."


KLEIN: True story.

HAYES: We will be right back with someone who is taking advantage of
the conditions created by the affordable care act, who is trying to change
health care coverage for the better.



BILL CLINTON, FMR. WHITE HOUSE PRESIDENT: You are going to grill me?
I have heard about you guys. I`m terrified.

KEVIN NAZEMI, 11-YEAR-OLD STUDENT (voice-over): I met up with the
President Clinton. He came here to sell his economic plan to the local
media there. But, the questions I brought with me from Columbia dealt with
what kids care about, starting with some advice about how to get to be
president some day.

CLINTON: I study very hard in school and learn a lot about a lot of
things. Develop your mind. It`s not so important what you study. It`s
that you learn to use your mind because we`re living in a world that`s
changing very rapidly.


HAYES: That 1993 interview was conducted by an intrepid fearless 11-
year-old named, Kevin Nazemi. Today, Nazemi is still fearless because he
and two partners are doing something that seems like a recipe for disaster.
They are starting a new health insurance company.

You don`t see the adjective startup used to modify health care
company. It is a field dominated by massive legacy dinosaurs, but Nazemi
and his partners at Oscar health are betting that the affordable care act
will actually revolutionize the business, create a new space for innovation
in delivering insurance that they can capitalize on.

Joining me now to discuss why health insurance companies suck and why
his won`t, is Kevin Nazimi, and still with me at the table is MSNBC Policy
Analyst Ezra Klein.

Why does everybody hates their health -- well, that is not true. Not
everyone hates their insurance companies, but if you go into like a town
hall and say, "Give me complaints about your health insurance companies."
It`s like give me complaints about your bank. Like there are certain
things, your cable company. There are certain things that people will
always complain about -- why is that the case?

people and we`re a group of tech entrepreneurs who have looked at our
health insurance and said, people deserve better. And, today`s health
insurance is like dealing with a broken ATM machine because it`s not built
for consumers. It is built for the HR departments and brokers and big
companies and the consumer is an afterthought and the experience --

HAYES: Explain that a little better to me. I mean like
organizationally, why is it the case that the customer service is bad?
What is going on that makes it that way?

NAZEMI: What happens is that a big, big chunk of market today serves
employers and what happens is insurers sell to the employers and the
employee gets whatever --

HAYES: You are not the customer, the person that runs Comcast Health
Insurance, that`s the customer, right? Comcast is the customer. I`m not
the customer.

NAZEMI: Exactly. It would be as if you got your car from your
employer. And, if they dealt with Ford, then you will get a Ford and that
is what you deal with.

HAYES: Right.

NAZEMI: Whereas what the ACA enables is an opportunity for the first
time for the 40 million people who today don`t have insurance to come into
the market and have a choice. Through a marketplace that`s very equivalent
to buying an airplane ticket online.

HAYES: Does that square with what you understand about the health --

KLEIN: Yes, that`s basically right. I think the big thing, and I
think this is a key point about how the insurance market is changing.
There are two things. One, you get the new marketplaces, which is a sort
of punctuated moment when you can have new entrants come in and everybody
is kind of beginning from scratch.

And, number two, we`re killing off, A. The ability to underwrite and
sort of go to people because they were sick or have high risk or killing
away the ability to really rate against age.

And, so, where it used to be one of the big ways that the insurance
competed in the individual market was to find the people who were the best
at keeping they didn`t want out of their insurance.

Now, all of a sudden you actually need to just try to get everybody
into your pool, try to attract them. Instead of being worried that your
great marketing is going to get to the wrong people.

HAYES: So, the affordable care act has created a kind of floor,
right? That creates the conditions for a competitive marketplace if it
works properly. That`s your understanding of this business venture.

NAZEMI: You bet. It is a catalyst for us. What it does and enables
us to compete for the business of 40 million people just like any consumer
product. It`s not going to come to us, but we`re going to go out there and
we`re going to put our products out there and be out there like a campaign
and share with people what Oscar offers.

HAYES: OK, so, why am I -- Let`s say that I`m in the exchange. Let`s
say I find myself, you know, without employer insurance and let`s say I`m
getting a subsidy from the government because I fall in that band. And, I
go and pull up my New York State exchange, for instance. Why am I going to
choose Oscar?

NAZEMI: You are going to choose Oscar because, first of all, we`re
simple. You know, we`re going to take the jargon out and we are going to
make it something that you can understand, something where, you know, the
details aren`t in the fine print. But, it`s up there, up front. We`re
transparent with you, where you can see what`s there.

Second thing is that we`re going to guide you through all the
complexity. Health care is complex. That doesn`t go away. What you
deserve is to be able to see and make choices for yourself, what the price
going to be if I go to a provider on one side of the street or a provider
on the other side of the street?

HAYES: How much does the affordable care act play into this price
transparency? Because right now, prices are obscured, they make no sense.
I just went to a specialist for my throat the other day and they could have
told me -- they literally could have told me that it was $25 or $700, and I
would not have been surprised by either. I just had no idea. I was like,
"OK. Yes, oh, this counts for the co-pay, OK? Well, here." You know, I
mean, there is no price transparency. Does the affordable care act do
anything about that?

KLEIN: It does a little bit, but honestly not that much. The
affordable care act is not able or does not really force everybody to be
price transparent. And, what you`re seeing happen there, is that all these
different insurers are negotiating different deals with the hospitals.

And, basically nobody wants it out there because everybody is worried
either that they`re going to show that they`re getting a better deal than
their competitors will get it or a worse deal and nobody want to work with

What I think they are enable to do, though and I think this is an
important piece of your business, which I think affordable care act does
offer space for is changing actually who is delivering the care and where
you`re getting it. A lot of the price differentials happen. you get it
from a hospital. You get from a nurse. And, you guys I think are doing
some interesting work to try to change where you get it from.

NAZEMI: Absolutely. So, as an example, if you have a headache. You
can go to and with a click of a button, you could have a New
York-base doctor call you within minutes, instead of going through to the
emergency room door. That could be 24/7 any time and that is part of the
offering that Oscar has.

HAYES: So, a part of what you are doing is actually revolutionizing
care delivery to a certain level.

NAZEMI: Absolutely, and that`s a start in that effort.

HAYES: Very quickly, promise me that a year from now there is not
going to be some lung patient who is denied a transplant by Oscar that I am
going to have to bring on here and tell their terrible story about why you
are terrible.

NAZEMI: What we promise to everyone is that we`re going to be
transparent and open about everything that we do and empower people through
that transparency. And, can I promise you that we`ll always be right, and
not make mistakes? No. But, what we owe to everyone, and what we own a
consumer market where people can walk away every year is explain.

HAYES: Kevin Nazemi from Oscar and MSNBC Policy Analyst Ezra Klein.
Thank you both. That is "All In" for this evening. The "Rachel Maddow"
show starts right now. Good evening Rachel.


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