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'The Rachel Maddow Show' for Wednesday, Septemeber 25, 2013

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Date: September 25, 2013
Guests: Frank Pallone, Gina McCarthy

RACHEL MADDOW, HOST: And thanks to you at home for joining us this
hour. Happy Hump Day.

William Jefferson Clinton, Bill Clinton, was elected in 1992. Look at
how young they were!

Bill Clinton did not win a huge proportion of the vote in 1992,
because there was a third candidate. Remember, Ross Perot was running and
he got a big chunk? So, Bill Clinton didn`t win a huge proportion of the
vote, but he won the most, he won enough to unseat the incumbent president
at the time. He unseated the one-term Republican president affectionately
known by everyone as Poppy Bush.

Bill Clinton`s victory in 1992 ushered in not just his own presidency,
but unified Democratic control of Washington, Democrats controlled the
House, Democrats controlled the Senate, and Democrats controlled the White
House. And, of course, that kind of thing cannot last.

And it did not last, because in the first mid-term election that took
place after Bill Clinton got elected president, the Democrats just got
shellacked. Bill Clinton won the presidency in 1992. It was 1994 when
Republicans took more than 50 seats from the Democrats in the House. And
in so doing, the Republican Party got control of the House for the first
time since 1954.

It was a huge loss for the Democrats and a huge wins for the
Republicans. And because it had been so long, it really was a huge sea
change in Washington. It had been 40 years since they had seen the
Republicans in power in Congress.

And what did they want to do with their newfound power, now that they
were in control in more than 40 years? It turns out what they really
wanted to do was shut down the government.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning. The U.S. government is officially
broke this morning and preparing to shut down. A late-night meeting at the
White House has failed to resolve the budget impasse that has left the
country without the extensions of either the debt ceiling or spending

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At midnight, the machinery that pumps money into
the federal government stopped, caught in the political battle between
President Clinton and Congress.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The U.S. government locks the doors to museums
and parks, another shutdown is in effect.


MADDOW: After being out of power in Congress for 40 years, within
just a few months of them taking over the House, the Republicans decided
they wanted to shut down the government. That was under the leadership of
Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich.

That was the longest government shutdown in U.S. history. They had
two of them actually. They had a shorter one, and right after, that they
had a longer one -- the longest one in history. And the shutdown was
fantastically unpopular. And by huge margins, the country knew who they
blamed for this stupid shutdown in Washington that they hated so much.

By huge margins, the country blames Newt Gingrich and Republicans.
And then the following year after the shutdown, that was when Bill Clinton
had to run for re-election. And technically, Bill Clinton was running for
re-election against Republican Senator Bob Dole.

But really, it kind of felt like Clinton was running for reelection
against Congress, against Newt Gingrich and his Republican Congress which
shutdown the government. Bill Clinton ran for reelection as president
against the Congress, and Bill Clinton was reelected in a landslide.

Now, it`s a decade and a half later, and we have arrived again in
2008, and a new Democratic president. This time, the new Democratic
president was elected by a pretty good margin. And again, his election not
only put him in charge at the White House, it brought on a period of full
Democratic control in Washington -- Democrats control the White House and
the House and the Senate after the 2008 elections.

And, of course, that is a situation that just doesn`t last very long.
So, again, just like it happened with Bill Clinton, just like it happened
last time, this time, with President Obama in the first mid-term election
after the new Democratic president took office, the Democratic Party got
shellacked again. Once again, Democrats took dozens of Democratic seats in
the House, once again, the Republicans thereby took control of the House.

So, that was the 2010 mid-terms. All the new Republicans, the new
speaker, John Boehner, got sworn in, John Boehner got his gavel in 2011.
And then once again, Americans got to see what the new Republicans wanted
to do with their newfound power to control Congress.

Deja vu all over again, turns out what they want to do right away, as
soon as they get power, is shut down the government.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is a night for anger and recrimination in
Washington and around the country, as the clock ticks down to a shutdown of
the U.S. government.


MADDOW: That was only three months after the new Republican majority
and John Boehner got sworn in. Only three months into it, they were
already pushing the country right to the brink of a government shutdown.
But that was only for them, the first shutdown.

Three months later, ah, let`s do it again.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Washington meantime, the threat of a much
larger federal shutdown and what the White House describes as a potential
financial catastrophe looms tonight.


MADDOW: So, as soon as they took power, for the first time in years,
House Republicans have the country on the brink of a government shutdown.
That was within three months, then, they have the country on the brink of a
debt ceiling default, that was within six months. That`s number one and
number two.

What did they do after that? Let`s go for number three, who-hoo! Why
not? Ho! Ho!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though the campaign rages again, there`s
another bipartisan fight over government spending here in Washington. The
latest deadline to come to an agreement and avert a government shutdown


MADDOW: That was number three. Number three in less than a year.
The country going through three government shutdown or debt limit deadline
disasters within the first nine months of Republicans taking power in the
House. That is what they do with power when they get it. That`s what they
did when they got control of Congress in 1994, and what they did when they
got control back in 2010.

And so that is how we spent 2011, racing down a winding, downhill,
mountain road, in kind of a go-cart with bad steering and no brakes and
there`s no guard rails on the side of the road, and we`re teetering over
the edge every few minutes. It was a harrowing 2011.

2012 was less harrowing, Republicans were still in control. And there
was therefore, still a lot of talk about whether we might go to the brink.
But in 2012, we did have fewer actual trips to the end of the abyss, and
maybe that`s because it was an election year and everybody knows that
shutdown threats are really unpopular with voters, so many be that was
something you didn`t necessarily want to do, right before people were going
to vote in November.

So, in 2012, for whatever reason, we had a little bit of a respite.
But now, it`s an odd-numbered year and it`s all back. We were back to
doing this again now, apparently.

As you know, Texas freshman Senator Ted Cruz talked for 21 hours
overnight. Then he stopped talking. The senator was not filibustering
anything, he was not delaying anything happening in Congress. There was
nothing in the legislative procedures, due to the fact that he was talking.

Before he started talking, there was supposed to be a vote in the
Senate midday today, and then after all the talking, there was still a vote
in the Senate at mid-day today. And in that vote, the Senate, even Ted
Cruz, voted with everybody unanimously. Ted Cruz voted with everybody
after his 21-hour long stand saying he wouldn`t, they all voted the same
way. So Ted Cruz` talking pageant had no material effect on what happened.

Now, the vote on what happened after Ted Cruz talked today, may avoid
a shutdown, we can tell later. But I think it is likely that a government
shutdown can be avoided. We`ll be talking about that in more detail coming
up on the show. But as far as I can tell from here, it is unlikely I think
that a government shutdown will be avoided in the next few days, because
remember, even before any of this got to the Senate, Republicans in the
House voted to shut down the government.

Yes, maybe, Ted Cruz may be the one who is just talking about that
without consequences in the Senate, and then voting to go ahead anyway,
right? But the House Republicans, they actually voted to do it.
Republicans voted 228 to 1 in the House that the federal government should
be shut down. And so yes, it looks like we are heading into a government

What is turning out to be fascinating, though, what is turning out to
be fascinating in this process goes back to 1995 and the last time they did
this. Remember, Republicans were blamed and hated for bringing about that
shutdown as a way of trying to get their way back in 1995. The polls,
frankly, look the same today. Poll says government shutdown threat

No matter what else you think about the government, or the parties or
even what you think about health reform specifically, nobody wants this
shutdown that the Republicans are forcing. Quote, "While partisan divides
may exist on a number of issues, the majority of Democrats, Republicans and
independents all agree that threatening to shutdown of the government is
not the way to negotiate."

Quote, "Republicans, Democrats, independents and Tea Party supporters
alike object to the threat of a shutdown."

This is not a subtle thing. The political history from the 1995-1996
shutdown is not a forgotten history.

There has been an effort in talk radio land to do a revisionist of the
history to say, actually, America loved the shutdown, America loved Newt
Gingrich, Republicans didn`t pay a price at all. And that revisionist
history presumably to somebody else who was also elected president in 1996
who was not named Bill Clinton, that who has not gotten around to rewriting
that particular chapter yet.

There is a conservative effort to rewrite the history of what happened
when Republicans shutdown the government. But that history is too dramatic
and too recent for people`s real memories of what actually happened to be
replaced with fake ones that are more ideologically convenient.

It`s very clear, from history and it`s very clear from today`s polls,
if you shut down the government, you will pay a price. History proves it
and everybody knows it. The polls show it for this time around
specifically. It is a clear thing.

And so, because of that we have this fascinating dynamic going on
right now in the right, where we are heading toward a government shutdown.
Republicans are voting to shut down the government. But they are trying to
avoid being blamed for it. And the genius strategy this time to avoid the
fate of the Republican Party in the `90s is to say this time that the blame
for any government shutdown rests not on the Republican Party as a whole,
even though Republicans are voting for it and making it happen.

The blame does not rest with the Republican Party as a whole. Rather,
the blame all rests on one dude. The blame all rests on that guy.

And it`s kind of a brilliant idea, because that guy sort of wants to
be blamed. He wants to be the bad guy. He eats that for breakfast. He
wants to be the Tea Party hero, broken but unbowed. Oh, they all hate me,
I must be noble.

He is a brand-new fresh Republican senator from Texas who doesn`t have
to run for re-election until 2018. And between now and then, he will raise
money hand over fist due to his martyrdom in the eyes of the particularly
extreme conservative base.

He thinks he can hold onto the seat forever and he can raise money
from now until forever that he was martyred for this noble cause. He
doesn`t care. He will take all the blame. He loves it.

So this is the plan, right? It`s kind of a win-win if it works. If
you can put all the blame on the Texas guy who loves being blamed for it,
then you can still shut down t government. You can still vote for it,
Republican member of Congress, but maybe this time you wouldn`t have to pay
any price for it.

And so, you`ve got this weird situation, where you`ve got guys like
Republican Congressman Tom Cole, who`s part of the Republican leadership in
the House, saying things like this.


REP. TOM COLE (R), OKLAHOMA: Shutting down the government to you
know, get your way over an un-related piece of legislation is the political
equivalent of throwing a temper tantrum. It`s just not helpful.


MADDOW: It`s a temper tantrum. It`s not helpful. We wouldn`t shut
down the government.

And then there is also Republican Congressman Pete King, Peter King,
of New York., making the same case.


REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: We can`t be going off on these false
missions that people like Ted Cruz wants to go on. The issues are too
important. They`re too serious to require real conservative solutions, not
keep the headline-hunting schemes. Hopefully, it will be a major step and
letting people know that Ted Cruz is a fraud and he`ll no longer have any
influence in the Republican Party.


MADDOW: Sure, blame it all on Ted Cruz, the fraud. Shutdown is a
terrible idea. This terrible Ted Cruz idea.

But you know what, Peter King, Tom Cole, if you guys think it is such
a bad idea to shut down the government, why did you both vote for it?

Why did you vote to shut down the government when you got a chance to
vote for it last week? The Republicans vote for a shutdown was 228-1, and
neither of you guys was the one. You guys are voting for it and trying to
put the backlash on somebody else. They are trying to get the shutdown
that their Republican politics demands while taking none of the blame for
it, because they know what happened in 1995. They know how badly it hurt
them the last time the Republicans did it and they know it will happen

Government shutdown, set to begin in six days, and there sits history
just waiting to repeat itself.

Joining us now is Frank Pallone. He`s a Democratic congressman of New
Jersey. He was there serving in Congress in the last time Republican shut
down the government in 1995. And now he is watching this new shutdown
drama unfolds again.

Congressman Pallone, thanks very much for being here tonight.


MADDOW: When Republicans did this in 1995 in the Clinton era, it was
pretty disastrous for them politically both in the polls at the time and in
the next election. Did you and your fellow Democrats at the time know how
it would turn out when it was happening?

PALLONE: No, definitely not. I mean, they were clearly ideologically
driven then as they are now. But I don`t think anyone necessarily knew
that they were going to be blamed for it. But I don`t think there is any
doubt that that will happen again. I just hope it doesn`t happen because
of the damage it does to the government and economy.

MADDOW: In terms of the lessons learned from that time, obviously
having gone from the longest government shutdown in history, we saw some of
practical effects. As you say, the real harm done for shutting down the
government for that long, including the start-up costs of getting it back
open again after the shutdown.

Is there anything politically that Democrats learned from them?
Lessons that you might expect Democrats to draw on this time around as we
sort of experience the same thing again?

PALLONE: Well, I think it`s our obligation to continue to say that we
don`t want this to happen. And to constantly say, look, we`re reaching out
to the Republicans. We`d like to sit down with them. We`d like to
negotiate with them.

And that certainly this shouldn`t be linked in any way to the health
care reform, to Obamacare. I mean, it makes no sense. I know you didn`t
mention that. But that`s what they`re all saying, this right wing
ideology, such as I want my way and there shouldn`t be any Obamacare. It
should be delayed or defunded. And it makes no sense.

I mean, that`s not going to happen. We`re all -- so many people are
anticipating being able to sign up for health insurance.

And so, I think we just have to continue to make the point. We don`t
want this to happen. We want to sit down with them. But you know, so far
they`re not offering to negotiate or sit down with us at all.

And as you know, they`re in charge with the House. So, they -- if
they don`t make the offer, there is not much to do other than to say this
is not a good thing.

MADDOW: Congressman, one of the things that has been discussed with
more and more frequency, I think, as we`re getting closer and closer to the
deadline, is this idea that the Republicans urgency around this, they`re
sort of desperation to try to do anything they can to stop the Affordable
Care Act, to stop health reform, is because people are going to like having
health insurance, that people are going to like this problem -- this
program, that it`s going to be politically popular especially in the long
run and it`s gong to almost structurally improve Democrat`s chances, and
Republicans just can`t let something like that get locked in the way the
New Deal got locked in and Social Security got locked in, and Medicare got
locked in, and ways that Democrats` political benefit for generations to

What do you think of that argument?

PALLONE: I think it`s true. I mean, I think that, you know,
ideologically, a lot of right wing Republicans are very much opposed to
Obamacare, and part of it is because they do realize it could be
successful. And this is the last opportunity in their mind to derail it.

But it`s not going to be derailed. I mean, what they forget is the
president won the election. And during the election, Romney was saying he
would repeal Obamacare if he became president. People voted for Obama
instead of Romney. We have a Democratic majority in the Senate.

So they`re just -- they`re trying to redo the election and that is not
going to happen. So you know, I think the best thing is look, let`s try to
see if there is some way to convince the Republicans between now and Monday
that this is not wise. That this is not going to happen in terms of
defunding Obamacare, that for the good of the country, they need to sit
down with us and come up with a budget that we can agree on.

MADDOW: Congressman Frank Pallone, Democrat of New Jersey, thank you
for your time tonight, sir. It`s nice to see you.

PALLONE: Thank you.

MADDOW: Thank you.

All right. We`ve got lots ahead tonight, including a big get for us
on the interview. Somebody from the administration we wanted to talk to
for a very, very long time. That is straight ahead. Stay with us.


BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: Richard Dean is a 49-year-old Vietnam
veteran who worked for the Social Security Administration for 22 years now.
Last year, he was hard at work in the federal building in Oklahoma City
when the blast killed 169 people and brought the rubble down all around
him. He re-entered that building four times. He saved the lives of three

But Richard Dean`s story doesn`t end there. This last November, he
was forced out of his office when the government shut down. And the second
time the government shut down, he continued helping Social Security
recipients, but he was working without pay.

On behalf of Richard Dean and his family, and all the or other people
who are out there working every day, doing a good job for the American
people, I challenge all of you in this chamber, let`s never, ever shut the
federal government down again.




MADDOW: So there is a new version of "American Gladiators" that was
on TV over the last couple of years. And in the new version of
"Gladiators," everybody is very fit and shiny and they compete in obstacle
courses and they`re very good at it. So, the whole show makes everybody
look like super heroes, right, like boom, bam, boom, I`m doing all right.

But when I was a kid, watching the old version of "American
Gladiators", that was the opposite. That was basically a show about
failure, about how impossible everything is, and how there is no way you
were going to be able to compete at this stuff because it was designed to
make you fail and it will make you fail. Yes, technically, there is a way
to run up that backward treadmill, or not fall off that rolling thing, or
dogs, that giant (INAUDIBLE). But not really, you are going down, get
humble, America, right?

And it is this old failure guaranteed version of "American Gladiators"
that I think most resembles what we have to go through now in order to
avoid the Republican shutting down the federal government.

None of this is about Ted Cruz talking for 21 hours. That was just
for show. That had no effect on the process. But what happened today in
Congress, regardless of Mr. Cruz`s speech, the vote that happened today
after he was done talking started us into this obstacle course that
theoretically can be navigated, in one very specific, very demanding, very
narrow way.

But the process, frankly, offers a million opportunities for a
shutdown, any wrong turn, at any step, and, splat, you`re off the platform,
bang. It only offers one basically narrow unlikely path to not having a

So, today was the first hurdle. The Senate voted to jump into the
obstacle course and start their debating and voting process. That was the
vote at mid-day and that vote passed. Had that vote failed, we would have
had a government shutdown.

Next, the Senate will vote again on a bill to keep the government
funded and leave health reform as it is. That will have to happen by this
weekend. If that vote passes, we`ll move on to the next obstacle. If that
vote fails, we will have a government shutdown.

If the bill doesn`t fail, it does actually move on, we have not been
splated off our platform as American gladiators, what will happen next is
the next obstacle. The bill will go back to the House, which, of course,
is controlled by Republicans who just voted 228-1 for a government

If the House decides to vote on it and votes it down, hey, guess what,
we have a government shutdown. If the House decides to vote on it, and
votes it down, hey, we got a government shutdown. The only way we don`t
have a government shutdown is if the Senate passes, then the it goes to the
House, then the House decides to take it up, then the House passes it, and
if any one of those steps doesn`t happen or even if they all do happen, but
it all doesn`t happen before Monday, then we have a government shutdown.

We`re going to have a government shutdown. A government shutdown is
going to happen within the next few days, unless this very, very specific
series of things happens in record time. It is an obstacle course that is
much easier to fail at than it is to succeed.

And all the while, tick tock, this is a time limited process. Watch
this space.


MADDOW: Let`s say you`ve just started a really high profile job as a
top tier government official. And as part of being a high profile top tier
government official, you have to go to Congress and answer questions from
members of Congress about the thing that you do for the government.

And even though you know the questions are probably going to be
contentious, and there`s going to be show-boating and grand-standing, and a
bunch of the members of Congress who you`re going to be facing voted
against your confirmation and don`t want you to have your job, still, you
know what? You go. You got to do it. It`s part of your job.

Honestly though, you`re probably dreading it. And it is definitely
going to be a little nervous making, right, every time you do it, but you
go. And you get to this hearing and you get your place at the table.

And you turn around to see who else is there in the room with you and
this is what you see. What you see staring back at you is a whole bunch of
people in the audience in this congressional hearing who have wrapped their
heads in aluminum foil. That`s your audience. What do you do in this
scenario? That`s next.


MADDOW: If you fish, if you`re a person who enjoys fishing, as I do,
you might be familiar with this tiny little guy. This is a fat head

If you are fishing for bass and you`re going to the bait shop, and you
are buying minnows, if you are lucky, you are probably getting this guy or
somebody he is related to. And yes, that is sad for him. But I come for
myself by telling myself that bait somehow does not know it is bait. I
realize I`m fooling myself.

Fat head minnows live all over North America. They are used as bait a
lot. People stock them as food fish, for the bigger fish that they want to
fish for in their lakes and ponds.

Fat head minnows are also used to help us figure out if our water is

In this building in Duluth, Minnesota, the Environmental Protection
Agency grows fat head minnows, we`re minnow ranchers, you and I. We grow
these little guys by the thankful, and the EPA uses them in testing about
whether there are toxic elements in the air and in the water. They are
specifically helpful apparently in helping sniff out toxic elements that
affect the endocrine system.

The EPA has been doing this kind of testing for a long time. They
have even this sort of awesome training videos that teach their employees
how to do it.


NARRATOR: The fat head minnow is used in toxicity tests at various
life stages. This video presents method developed over the last twenty
years at the EPA`s mid-continent ecology division in Duluth, Minnesota.


MADDOW: You know, 2009 does not sound like it was all that long ago
until you see a training video made in 2009, and it feels like, where is
the DeLorean?

Anyway, this 20 years worth of fat head minnow work at the EPA has
been kind of a low key thing. It`s not really been the subject of
headlines, until it started getting a few now. With the government
shutdown becoming more and more likely with each passing hour, the EPA and
several other government agencies, it had to make very granular decisions
about which daily functions of their part of the federal government they`re
going to keep doing.

It may seem like a small point in the grand scheme of shutting down
the largest government on earth. But honestly, a decision has to be made,
right, if the government shuts down, and people who work for the agencies
stay home and all the discretionary funding for everything does shuts off
like a tap, what happens to the minnows? Those minnows in Duluth may or
may not be enthralled with John Boehner and political arguments about
whether or not to shut down the government. But if John Boehner decides to
shut down the government, the minnows don`t have to eat.

It turns out the decision has been made, the minnows will be spared in
the shutdown. The EPA has found a way to keep at least someone on the job
in Duluth to not let all the fish die even if the government shuts down.
The rest of the EPA, though, pretty much will have to close.

The EPA administrator, Gina McCarthy, said this week that a government
would effectively close the agency`s doors. The government doesn`t
automatically shutter every agency. You know, troops don`t necessarily get
recalled from their forward-operating bases or anything.

But the parts of the budget that are discretionary, like say the EPA,
those parts get hit the hardest. Without a budget deal to keep the
government open, the EPA, like many other agencies is not going to be able
to pay its employees. In the case of the EPA, that`s about 17,000 people.
So, the vast majority of those people will be sent home while their work
doesn`t get done.

And if you believe that the EPA ought to exist, you probably think
there is never a good time to shut it down. But even if you don`t usually
kind thoughts about the EPA, maybe this seems like a particularly bad time
for this particular agency to shut down.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More spills emerging from a Colorado oil patch
ravaged by flooding.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have learned of three additional oil spills
today, bringing the gallons spilled into the floodwaters to more that
34,000. That`s about 800 barrels. The state is tracking 11, quote-
unquote, "notable spills".

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State officials say most of the oil is coming
from notable releases from the South Platte River. During the flood, 1,900
oil and gas wells were shut down in Northern Colorado, about a third has
since reopened.


MADDOW: Massive flooding that ravaged parts of the state of Colorado
last week happened to hit that part of the state that have been
experiencing an oil and gas boom in the last few years. There are 20,000
active oil and gas wells in that parts of Colorado that were hardest hit by
the floods.

Now, one of the many challenges facing lawmakers and residents in
Colorado is they start rebuilding is how to make sure their drinking water
is safe, how to make sure that those 11 notable oil spills leaking into
the flood waters are not going to make people sick, and not just now, but
in an ongoing way.

The EPA is one agency in Colorado trying to figure it out. A local
environmental activist in Colorado said yesterday, quote, "We have serious
concerns that because the state has so few inspectors and regulators, the
oil industry is out there self-policing. We need EPA to step in and make
sure the public and the environment are protected."

We need the EPA to step in and make sure the public is protected.

That is just one environmental disaster in one state that makes you
feel like maybe it is a bad time for the EPA to have to pull down the
shutters and go home indefinitely. But even with the threat of shutdown
getting closer and closer, even with the hard decisions that that details,
everything from those federally owned live minnows in Duluth, and to the
dig out from the floods in Colorado, even with that bearing down on us in
general, and the EPA in particular, that agency is also in the middle of
making some of the highest high profile decisions in the past few years.

Just past week, the EPA made an announcement that people who believe
in science have been waiting for, for a long time. Ever since President
Obama elected and specifically ever since he promised in his State of the
Union addressed this year that he would act alone on climate change, even
if Congress would not act.

The EPA has just announced the first-ever regulation that limited how
much carbon pollution, power plants, can be belched into the air. And they
are tough new standards telling power plants to adhere to a lower level of
pollution than even the most efficient plants have achieve today.

But the new rules only apply to plants that don`t exist, plants that
are not built yet. The 6,500 power plants that are already operating in
the United States right now are not affected by the new rule at all.

So how much of a difference is this new rule going to make anyway?

When President Obama gave his big climate speech back in June of this
year, he vowed that his administration would enforce tough new standards on
all power plants, on new and existing power plants. He vowed that the old
ones wouldn`t just be grandfathered in, so they can continue to pollute as
much as they want, since after all, they pollute the most.

The rules for plants that do not exist are the new rules that are out
now. The rules for the thousands of plants that do exist, for those we`re
supposed to wait another year at least.

Why do we have to wait? If President Obama and the EPA are able to do
this without needing to seek the approval of the climate change denialist
caucus in Congress, why not just go all the way? Why not do it now?

Joining us now for the interview is our nation`s administrator of the
Environmental Protection Agency, Gina McCarthy.

It`s very nice to have you here. Thank you so much for being here.

GINA MCCARTHY, EPA ADMINISTRATOR: It`s great to be here, Rachel.

MADDOW: So why the decision to make the rule for only new power
plants now? Why do we have to wait until next year for any new rules about
existing ones?

MCCARTHY: Well, actually, Rachel, we announced existing ones, we
announced the new plant standards that we are proposing. I`m going to take
public comments on those.

At the same time, we`ve launched the discussion necessary for us to
lay out the proposals next June for existing power plants.

So we`re doing both. We`re doing them in sequence. We know all we
need to know about new plants and how to keep the plants functioning into
the future. Using new technologies, reducing carbon, hopefully, taking our
first big step in the president`s climate plan to address climate change --
which is really our most pressing public health threat.

MADDOW: Power plants put out about 30 or 40 percent of the greenhouse
gases that we have right now. Obviously, all of those are from existing
plants. And those are regulations we have to wait for, do we have to wait
another year because those regulations are going to be harder, harder to
figure out scientifically?

MCCARTHY: We have to -- we have to -- we`re not waiting, we have to
have conversations with the states. The way in which the existing power
plants need to be regulated is we have to work hand and hand with the
states, because the EPA sets a guidance, but the states actually give us
the plan for how much they can reduce in ways that make sense for those

And we are pretty excited. We actually think we can get significant
reductions from existing plants. But we need to do it in a way that is
smart, that has common sense, and a way that allows states to tailor their
approaches in a way that will build infrastructure that makes sense for
those states.


MADDOW: -- have already been leading on it --

MCCARTHY: Many, many. Many, many. We have states. We have states
that have renewable fuel standards, that have energy efficiency standards.
You have 10 states in the mid-Atlantic and New England that already have
the carbon trading reduction trading program.

You have the state of California who`s always way out in front of
this, that has their own program to reduce carbon. States have been doing
it for years. Cities have been doing it for years.

Mayors know that the climates have been changing. There are things
that they can do that are important for them to keep their communities

They also know that the thing you need to do for climate, it is
tremendously important for e economic bottom line for both families and
cities. You can do things that make sense economically. You can drive a
clean energy agenda. And you can address climate change in a very serious
common sense appropriate economically viable way.

MADDOW: If -- staying on that issue of the existing 6,000 or whatever
power plants that we`ve got, if that is a process that is regionally
tailored, that`s is looking for best cases, not just looking for best cases
and applying them nationally, but also letting states and even localities
finding their way, are in a -- are we looking at a future where to be
blunt, states with more conservative politicians have dirtier air, and have
more asthma because they`re allowed to -- they don`t believe in climate

They don`t believe that global warming is real. They don`t want to
eliminate carbon emissions, and those places end up not just because
economically poor but also environmentally poor.

MCCARTHY: I think there are two things we need to do. First, we have
to look at the new source standard. Now, I know that that`s about future
power plants, but every power plant will last for dozens of years. In
fact, up to 70 years.

And so, we wanted to send a signal that there -- the future is carbon
constrained. The present needs to be carbon constrained. You have to use
the newest technologies while you keep diverse fuels going forward. That`s
the first thing that we`ve put out.

Now, the second thing that we need to do with communities is that we
are actually going to set a guidance. We are going to be having that
guidance set it as aggressively as we can. But that is a performance
standard. We`re just going to allow states to look at the most meaningful
way to approaching that standard, so that it`s cost effective for them,
they continue to grow the economy, but they a wealth of opportunities to
that in a way that will reduce carbon.


MCCARTHY: Rachel, dealing with climate change is not going to be
resolved by these rules. We need to get moving. We need to act now.
That`s what the president said. This is part of the overall effort.

If we do it in a way that shows people they don`t have to be afraid of
a carbon constrained world, they can move forward. It can benefit
consumers. It can benefit states. It can make us all more efficient.
That is what we need to start moving on.

MADDOW: You have a reputation as a pragmatic person, you have a
bipartisan history. You`ve worked with a lot of Republicans in Congress.

In the last hearing that you are in Congress that I know about -- and
forgive me if you were there since -- there were a bunch of people sitting
in the audience wearing the foil hats, to symbolize the climate change
denialism, the sort of flat earth society of conservatives who refuse to
believe that climate change is happening.

How do they get over it? How -- is the debate getting any less
denialist over time? And do you -- how do you see that issue resolving?

MCCARTHY: I think it is.


MCCARTHY: I think it changed dramatically. I think the president
having the courage to stand up and do what he did in his speech was to talk
about how the climate science is certain. Humans are causing the climate
change, they`re fuelling it. And we need to take action now.

I don`t think those are messages that are being taken.

MADDOW: You think those are sinking in?

MCCARTHY: Oh, I do. I do. I do, I think people`s attitudes are

I went to Iowa the week after I was confirmed. I went there to talk
to the agriculture community. There wasn`t a farmer there that was denying
that the climate has already changed. They need help.

We have over a thousand mayors, bipartisan, that have been dealing
with climate issues and are committed to deal with it. They can`t afford
not to. They can`t be climate deniers. Look at poor Boulder, Colorado --
are they denying climate? Are they looking at EPA?

The sole federal agency whose mission is to protect public health and
the environment as a discretionary agency right now? We`re not
discretionary. Right now, we need to tell Congress that they have to pass
a budget. They can and they must do that. These are essential services
now and in the future.

MADDOW: Gina McCarthy, head of the Environmental Protection Agency --
I was really looking forward to have the chance for you to be here tonight.
Thank you so much for coming.

MCCARTHY: Me, too, Rachel. Thank you.

MADDOW: Thanks a lot.

MCCARTHY: Take care.

MADDOW: All right, new news for Virginia coming up. Because it is
political news about the governor`s race, naturally, it is slightly not
safer work. So, tuck the kids in bed and then come back for that.

It`s coming right up.


MADDOW: Here is one way you know your campaign for governor is not
necessarily turning out the way you wanted it to turn out. When you get to
this point in the campaign and the subsection of your Web site that`s
called "the truth about you", in this case "the truth about Ken", that
section of your Web site has the following subsections -- OK, so, there is
divorce. And yes, that says sodomy.

Wait a second, sodomy? The truth about Ken, sodomy. This is your own
Web site. Yes.

This is your own Web site, and this is not the Web site of someone who
is sailing into the governorship. But this is what`s going on right now in
the biggest political contest in the country.

It turns out things are still going downhill and going downhill in the
weirdest way possible in Virginia. And that story is next.


MADDOW: Biggest political race in the country now is the Virginia
governor`s race. And when we last checked in on the Virginia governor`s
race between Republican attorney general Ken Cuccinelli, and the Democrat
in the race, Terry McAuliffe, it seems like it was going to be a really
close race. It`s purple, Virginia, right? It`s going to be neck in neck.
Could go either way.

Now, a trend is emerging in this race as it heads into its final
weeks. Ken Cuccinelli, the Republican in the race, is losing. He`s losing
in a new NBC/Marist poll by five points. It`s 43-38. Ken Cuccinelli is
losing in a new "Washington Post" poll by eight points, 47 to 39.

So, Ken Cuccinelli is losing, and he`s losing especially among women
in Virginia. We talked before how in this race, there was this remarkable
18-point gender gap, women preferring McAuliffe over Cuccinelli by 18
points. That was earlier this month.

Well, now, look at this -- among women, Cuccinelli its losing women by
18 points. Now, he`s losing women by 24 points. There is now a 24-point
gender gap in this race. Virginia women do not like Ken Cuccinelli.

So, given that distance that Cuccinelli needs to make up with women
Virginia, it might seem like now would be a weird time for the pro-
Cuccinelli side to start launching ads that accused Terry McAuliffe of
supporting abortion rights. But weirdly, that`s what`s happening right now
in Virginia.

A group called Virginia Principals Fund is running this ad, running it
a lot. It`s a huge ad buy, hoping that I guess this will help Ken
Cuccinelli. One might argue is more likely to make Virginia women favor
Ken Cuccinelli even less than they already do that Terry McAuliffe supports
abortion rights and Ken Cuccinelli doesn`t.

The Virginia Public Access Project reports that the generic-sounding
PAC that`s running this ad is actually just funded by one guy, a hedge fund
guy in New York who gave hundreds of thousand of dollars to this PAC that`s
running the abortion ad. Hedge fund guy, Robert Mercer, is not only the
Virginia Principal Fund`s biggest donor, he is their only donor. He has
given them a whopping 600 grand, which is all the money they have got.

And, of course, nobody is a loud to donate $600,000 to Ken
Cuccinelli`s campaign, but doing it this way is effectively the same thing
with a nice tidy way around the law.

Back in 2010, do you remember the Art Robinson election? Art Robinson
was the Republican who was running in Oregon trying to unseat a 12-term
Democratic congressman named Peter DeFazio. Art Robinson said that global
warming was a secret plot to make the American people into slaves. Art
Robinson said we should sprinkle nuclear waste in the oceans and maybe
around our school yards.

Art Robinson was hard to talk to.


MADDOW: One of the things that happens in satellite interviews, is
there`s about 1 1/2-second delay between me asking a question and you
hearing it. So you can interpret that as --


MADDOW: -- as it is just the way the medium works. I`m sorry it has
been so awkward for you.

ART ROBINSON: No, no, your interruption was not caused by the delay.
That`s the speed of light. Madam, it`s much faster than that.


MADDOW: My head still kind of hurts from that not just from the
banging on the desk.

Art Robinson, the Republican congressional candidate in Oregon who
truly believed in the many health benefits of exposure to radioactivity, so
much so we should sprinkling a little bits of radioactive material in our
vegetable patches and our schooling yards for our health. The guy who
believes that global warming is a conspiracy to enslave America and also
AIDS is a myth, or maybe AIDS is a government conspiracy, too.

Art Robinson was amazing. But some secret donor spent a couple
hundred thousand dollars on pro-Art Robinson, anti-Peter DeFazio ads. And
this is a little district in Oregon where that kind of money doesn`t
usually get spent. But in 2010 it was, because of the secret donor. That
one secret donor in the Art Robinson race in 2010 turned out to be, Robert
Mercer. Same dude. Same guy who`s doing the Ken Cuccinelli abortion ads
right now.

Robert Mercer was one of two big time donors, in fact, who tried to
deliver a congressional seat to wacky Art "eat your radioactive vegetables"
Robinson. And now, he`s trying to do the same thing with Ken Cuccinelli.

As voting gets under way in the great commonwealth of Virginia, in
this race closes in on its final days, the Cuccinelli side seems to be
returning to Ken Cuccinelli`s roots. You might remember when he was a
state senator, he posted a campaign ad in which he solicited donations
using a stuffed elephant named Ron. Ron wants you to give Ken money.

The 2013 version of that weird ad rooks like this -- a 30-minute
infomercial in which she speaks directly to many cameras, switching so
frequently between them it looks like he is watching a tennis match from
about three inches away.

Then, there`s also the amazing fact check page on his Web site with
the quick link to Truth About Ken. Subsection, sodomy, and Homeland
Security, circa 2007, Ken Cuccinelli`s sodomy looks like threat level
orange, as far as I can tell.

Out on the campaign trial, you are so tired of answering questions
about sodomy that this is a real time saver. You have off to put it on
your Web site.

Virginia governor`s race is an amazing campaign. Sometimes, elections
in odd number years turn out to be the oddest thing of all.


Have a great night.


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