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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, October 3rd, 2013

Read the transcript from the Thursday show

October 3, 2013

Guest: Bernie Sanders, Gerry Connolly,Blake Farenthold, Tammy Baldwin,
Georges Benjamin, Sam Seder, Ben Domenech

CHRIS HAYES, HOST: We begin tonight with a terrifying, extraordinary scene
at the capital today when shots were fired, the Capitol Hill went into
lockdown and law enforcement, including Capitol Hill Police, the Secret
Service, and the FBI went into full response mode.

This is just part of the scene, captured by Arabic language TV channel

A female suspect traveling in her car with a child tried to breach a White
House barrier and was later almost stopped near the Capitol.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa! Get this, get this.








HAYES: Here`s what we know at this hour:

At about 2:18 this afternoon, the female suspect identified as Miriam Carey
of Stanford, Connecticut, traveling in a black Infiniti coupe with her 1-
year-old daughter, struck a security barrier surrounding the White House
grounds at 15th Street and E. The barrier was not breached and Secret
Service uniformed division tried to stop the vehicle.

Police then gave chase for about 1 1/2 miles, all the way to Constitution
Avenue and Second Street near the Capitol. The vehicle ran several red
lights during a chase in which it reached speeds of 80 miles an hour.

The suspect was ultimately shot and killed after crashing the car outside
the Senate office building, directly outside Dirksen. The child is
reportedly in protective custody.

In the chaos of the moment, a police car responding to the emergency
crashed into a barricade.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my -- what the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) just happened!
That was supposed to be (INAUDIBLE). Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).



HAYES: Police presence was massive and instantaneous. Amid a shutdown in
which Capitol Police are deemed essential personnel, but will not be paid,
until after the shutdown comes to an end.

The officer injured in this crash was taken to a hospital in a medevac
helicopter. That officer, a 20-year veteran of the force, is reportedly in
good condition. A second officer, a Secret Service officer, was also
injured during the incident and is also reportedly in good condition.

Two sources tell NBC News the female suspect did not have a gun. All the
shots reportedly came from law enforcement, not the woman in the car,
according to a police source just briefed by the Capitol Hill police. The
incident placed the Capitol in lockdown for about an hour. Both chambers
were in session at the time and some lawmakers heard the shots from their
position inside the Capitol Building.

Tourists with few options amid a partially closed Capitol were caught in
the chaos, an incredible scene on a day when Washington was already in a
state of supreme tension and agitation.

Joining me now with the latest is NBC News justice correspondent, Pete

And, Pete, what do we know at this hour about why this took place, what
possible motivation there was?

indication we have is from police officials and Congressional officials who
were -- excuse me -- briefed by the investigators, who simply say that the
woman had a history of what they call mental issues.

But the rest is all questions. Why did she come from Washington? She
worked up in Connecticut as a dental hygienist. Why did she come down
here? Why did she go to the White House?

After her encounter at the White House, that`s where the Secret Service was
injured, when she basically hit the Secret Service agent with her car. He
was injured, but the injuries are not serious. He received minor injuries,
the Secret Service says.

Then, she drove up to the Capitol, where this happened, where she was
stopped and then she backed into the police -- or the Secret Service
vehicle, and then kept going after they were shooting.

Remember, all the while, there is this 1-year-old child in the car with
her. So what possessed her to do this, what possessed her to do any of
these things, to disobey repeated verbal commands to stop, repeated shots
fired at her car, we don`t know whether, as you`re seeing these pictures
now, whether she at this point is wounded. We have to assume that she is.

These were -- you saw those shots fired at relatively close range, as she
was fleeing. But all the questions, I think, are going to take a while to
answer. The police are searching her house in Connecticut tonight.
They`re going to talk to neighbors, her employer. She has some relatives
in New York City. They`re talking to them, to try to get a better picture
of what happened.

HAYES: It was remarkable to me two things. One is that as the story came
out that she was able to make her way, the mile and a half from the White
House to the Capitol, and second of all, that the --

WILLIAMS: Well, that part, I think, is not very surprising, because once
you get away from the immediate area around the White House, the only thing
that`s going to prevent you from getting to the Capitol is traffic.

HAYES: Right.

WILLIAMS: Two-fifteen on a day when the Capitol is going through a
shutdown, a lot of federal employees are not here, the traffic is not heavy
as usual. She just was, you know, obviously, she wasn`t concerned about
her safety at any of these points. She`s blasting through red lights,
going at a very high speed.

But she does -- I mean, I think it`s telling that -- I don`t know if she
knew where she was going. Pennsylvania Avenue to the U.S. Capitol is a
fairly direct route, from the White House to the base of Capitol Hill.
Whether she knew that she was -- that was her next destination or not, she
headed to the same -- to the part of the city that had the greatest on the
street security.

HAYES: Pete Williams from NBC News -- thank you so much for your time

WILLIAMS: You bet.

HAYES: Joining me now is Senator Bernie Sanders, independent from Vermont.
He heard the gunshots on Capitol Hill today.

And, Senator, describe the scene to me.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Well, I was leaving a meeting in the
Capitol, going back to my office at the Dirksen Office Building. And about
halfway there, I heard these police cars driving furiously down
Constitutional Avenue, their sirens blaring. And then just at that point,
I heard four or five gunshots.

And, you know, one began -- then you began to see a whole lot of police
officers converging on the scene, telling people to get down, get down.
Another senator and I ducked behind a car and then we were escorted back
into the Capitol.

HAYES: It was remarkable to me how efficiently and quickly the Capitol
police seemed to get the situation under control, keep the lockdown, and
then they lifted the lockdown, and then, actually, the Congress resumed
business in the afternoon.

SANDERS: No, that`s -- that`s absolutely right. A, these guys are very
well-trained. And they do a good job.

Second of all, I think people are on edge. Everybody remembers the two or
three weeks ago, we had this terrible shooting in the Navy Yard. I think
12 people were killed. There`s a lot of tension going on on Capitol Hill
now with the government shutdown. So, it`s a tense time. But they know
their job and they did it very well.

HAYES: They also, one has to add, are part of the federal workforce that
is being affected by the shutdown. There`s a certain irony here today
about the fact that amidst the shutdown, these are some of those workers
that are being directly affected.

SANDERS: Chris, that`s a very important point. Here are these guys,
putting their lives on the line every day. And you`ll remember about 15
years ago, two guys got killed when some deranged gunman walked into the

But it`s true all over the country. We have now over 1 million people who
are working. They`re protecting the borders. I think they`re in
intelligence agencies. They`re doing Head Start work. They`re delivering
meals to frail, elderly people on dirt roads in Vermont.

You have all of these folks out there. And right now, they don`t know if
they`re going to get paid. They don`t know when they`re going to get paid.
And like everybody else in this country, they have mortgages to pay. They
have college loans to pay, and it is grotesquely unfair that this is
happening to them. They`re under a lot of anxiety, and it`s just wrong.

HAYES: Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, always a pleasure. Thank you so

SANDERS: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up --


SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: He`s hurt, but he said, I`m
paraphrasing, but not much. He said, I work every day to make sure you`re
safe. And when he says "me," he`s not talking about, he`s talking about
us. My thoughts are with him for a speedy recovery and again my admiration
goes to all federal law enforcement, but especially our capitol police.


HAYES: That was Senator Harry Reid -- himself a former U.S. Capitol police
officer, I learned that today -- talking about his conversation with the
officer who was injured today during the incident in Washington, D.C.
There is a great irony to all of the collective administration and
outpouring we saw from Congress today for these folks and we will talk
about it, coming up.


HAYES: Coming up later in the show, a peek inside the Republican shutdown
strategy courtesy of an open mic. We`ll be right back.





HAYES: Huge deserved appreciation on the House floor today for the Capitol
Police, which worked with other law enforcement to secure the Capitol and
pursue the suspect amid the chaos on Capitol Hill. As we mentioned, one
capitol police officer was injured and hospitalized after his squad car
crashed during the chase.

Numerous lawmakers tweeted out their appreciation for Capitol Police
officers in the aftermath of the incident, with this tweet from Republican
Congressman Bill Shuster striking a typical tone, "All of us on Capitol
Hill owe a debt of gratitude to the Capitol Police who keep us safe every

It was a little hard to escape the irony, of course, that these police
officers were risking their lives to protect the very people like Shuster
who shut the government down and caused a delay on their paychecks. While
Capitol Police are required to provide protection during a shutdown, they
don`t get paid for their work until lawmakers decide to fund the
government, which could be a little while, when they are paid

That is cold comfort for the capitol police officers, the federal
government workers, who need to pay their bills right now. As reporter
Adam Snider sarcastically tweeted, "So glad the Capitol Police got that
House ovation that they can use to feed their families and pay their

Joining me with me now is Congressman Gerry Connolly, Democrat from
Virginia. He also heard the gunshots on Capitol Hill today.

And, Congressman, how do you think about these two things, watching these
federal employees do their duty at the same time that Republicans in
Congress are essentially denying them their paycheck?

REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D), VIRGINIA: You know, it`s awfully hard to put a
kind word to it, Chris. Hypocrisy comes to mind. Do you have no sense of
shame comes to mind.

Here are people we`re applauding, who responded to what could have got --
been an incident that got way out of control. We really weren`t sure. And
they responded with professionalism under very difficult circumstances.
And their thanks is we stand up and applaud them. But of course,
meanwhile, they`re not big paid.

And many of these Capitol Hill police officers, you know, are frankly of
modest means. And to be denied that cash flow is a great hardship for them
and their families.

HAYES: Congressman, you represent a district in northern Virginia that has
a lot of federal works in it. What are you hearing from their constituents
about the effects of this shutdown, as people are now starting to say,
well, we`re definitely going to go another two weeks?

CONNOLLY: I think there is a growing sense, Chris, of angst that the
Republican strategy, what`s emerging as the Republican strategy is, we`re
actually going to play games, but keep the government shutdown and get
closed to the October 17th debt ceiling date and then have -- strike a
bargain, or threaten to strike a bargain.

Meanwhile, we`re holding federal workers, and, of course, the American
people, hostage for the better part of 21 days.

HAYES: There does not seem to be a lot of urgency in the House Republican
Caucus about the shutdown. In fact, everything you`re hearing from the
reporting from leadership is, they`re gaining this out for a few weeks.

I want to play something, it`s a clip of Stuart Varney of FOX Business
News, talking about federal workers, because there`s part of me that
thinks, the hardship federal workers are receiving from this is actually a
feature, not a bug. Take a listen.


STUART VARNEY, FOX BUSINESS: I don`t think they should get that back pay,
frankly, I really don`t. I`m sick and tired of a massive, bloated federal
bureaucracy living on our backs and taking money out of us, a lot more
money than most of us earn the private sector, then getting a furlough, and
then getting their money back at the end of it. Sorry, I`m not for that.
I want to punish these people.


HAYES: Do you think your colleagues on the Republican side of the aisle
want to punish these people?

CONNOLLY: I sure hope not. What you just played is one of the most mean-
spirited, self-centered, exaggerated expositions of what the federal
government is and what the workers who work for the federal government do
I`ve ever heard.

That is an insult to anyone in public service and it certainly insults the
American people. I`m just astounded. And I would hope that`s a minority
view on the Republican side of the aisle.

HAYES: But it is part of, I mean, part of the broader context of this
whole shutdown, of course, is the idea that coming from the right, the
federal government is bloated, that it needs to be cut, that it actually is
kind of a drain on Americans` liberty and freedom, and actually maybe
people will like having the federal government shutdown.

CONNOLLY: Well, I guess they`re betting on that. But this is a cut the
government at any price, you know, the Ryan budget cut the federal budget
by $5 trillion over ten years. $5 trillion with a "T."

You know, they just cut $40 billion in the SNAP program, the food stamp
program, cutting $3.8 million people off the rolls, half of them children.
And now they`re playing this game, and by the way, they got the lower

HAYES: And they did and they refused to take yes for an answer.
Congressman Gerry Connolly, thank you so much.

CONNOLLY: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Coming up, if you want a shining example of a disconnect between
what lawmakers expect from federal workers and the way they threat them,
and incident was caught on camera at the World War II Memorial that tells
you everything you need to know.


REP. RANDY NEUGEBAUER (R), TEXAS: Park Services should be ashamed of

PARK RANGER: I`m not ashamed.

NEUGEBAUER: Well, you should be.


HAYES: This clip will make your blood boil. I`ll show it to you, next.


HAYES: This is Congressman Randy Neugebauer, Republican from Texas. He
says he`s going to keep the government shut down for, quote, "as long as it
takes." But when it comes to the World War II Memorial, which is part of
this as long as it takes shutdown, Randy Neugebauer decided to make a
public show of berating a park services employee who has absolutely nothing
to do with closing the government.


NEUGEBAUER: How do you look at them and say, how do you deny them access?
I don`t get that.

PARK RANGER: It`s difficult.

NEUGEBAUER: Well, it should be difficult.

PARK RANGER: It is difficult. I`m sorry, sir.

NEUGEBAUER: Park Services should be ashamed of themselves.

PARK RANGER: I`m not ashamed.

NEUGEBAUER: Well, you should be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ask those questions of the people who aren`t passing
the budget. That`s who you need to ask those questions to.

This woman is doing her job just like me. I`m a 30-year federal veteran.
I`m out of work.

NEUGEBAUER: The reason you are is Mr. Reid --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. It`s because the government won`t do its job and
pass a budget.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s take this somewhere else.


HAYESD: Good for that guy in the bicycle helmet, speaking up, because I
was as angry as he was when I saw that clip. But that disgraceful display
by the Congressman from Texas is not to work of one loose cannon lawmaker.
It`s actually part and parcel of the only thing the Republican Party seems
to do anymore. I`ll explain what it is, next.


HAYES: We are now three days into the shutdown of the federal government.
Why are Republicans set on keeping the shutdown going? The answer is,
nobody knows. Not even Republicans.


HAYES (voice-over): We now know that the Republican shutdown is about
nothing. And today, we have the definitive evidence in the form of a quote
from Congressman Marlin Stutzman venting his frustration about the lack of
progress in the hostage negotiations his party started.

Congressman Stutzman said this.

REP. MARLIN STUTZMAN (R), INDIANA: We`re not going to be disrespected, so
that`s where we`re at today, where we have to get something out of this,
and I don`t know what that even is.

HAYES: It`s almost as if Republicans don`t know what they are mad about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what we`re yelling about!

HAYES: With the illusion of legislative substance out of the way,
Republicans are focusing on the one thing they`re good at, shaping the

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: Do you have a second?


PAUL: I just did CNN. I just go over and over again. We`re willing to
compromise, we`re willing to negotiate. I don`t think they poll-tested
that we won`t negotiate. I think it`s awful for them to say that over and
over again.

MCCONNELL: Yes, I do too. And I just came back from a two-hour meeting
with them and that was basically the same view privately as it was

PAUL: I think if we keep saying, we wanted to defund it, we fought for
that, but now we`re willing to compromise on that, I think we can -- we`re
going to -- well, I know we don`t want to be here, but we`re going to win
this, I think.

HAYES: Those were Kentucky`s senators, honing the latest GOP talking
points fresh after each man used them on live TV.

PAUL: I hear from the American people all the time, why don`t you guys

MCCONNELL: Well, there will have to be a compromise.

PAUL: So, we`ve been offering some compromises.

MCCONNELL: The American people expect us to negotiate.

PAUL: They`re saying we won`t negotiate.

MCCONNELL: Which is he doesn`t want to negotiate.

PAUL: I can`t understand why a compromise or negotiation would be bad.

HAYES: Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell were just sticking to the message,
because with the president refusing to negotiate with hostage takers, the
message is all they have left.

From their message about the World War II Memorial --

PAUL: There was a time during the attack in Benghazi when there were five
people there. Today, there were seven people trying to keep the World War
II vets from seeing the monument.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have more guards there no than what he had standing
around our embassies.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: And they sent more guards to the World War II
Memorial today than they did to Benghazi.

HAYES: To their message about Democrats` heartlessness towards cancer

HANNITY: Well, listen to this, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said
saving a child with cancer is not his priority.

REP. ERIC CANTOR, (R) VIRGINIA: While we work out our differences here in
Washington, children should not be denied the treatment.

REP. RENEE ELLMERS, (R) NORTH CAROLINA: Don`t take hope away from those

the Democrats who want these kids with cancer not being allowed to visit
the hospital.

HAYES (voice-over): And, finally, to the grand daddy of them all, the
talking point about President Obama negotiating with everyone but

HANNITY: Let me see if I understand this. The president will talk to
Syria, Iran, Vladimir Putin, but he won`t talk to members of the House.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will negotiate with Iran, Putin, but he won`t sit
down and talk --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will negotiate with Syria, who will negotiate with
Putin, who will negotiate with Iran.

REP. JEB HENSARLINBG, (R) TEXAS: Iranians and Syrians and Russians --

REP. PETER KING, (R) NEW YORK: He wants to say he`s not going to negotiate
with Boehner, but he will negotiate with Putin.

REP. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: He can talk to Iran, but don`t talk to
Congressional leaders.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he won`t talk with a Republican!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is just ridiculous. We have got the president
who is willing to negotiate with Iran and Russia and Syria, but not with
the members of Congress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: POTUS negotiates with Iran, Putin, but not Congress,

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president has the time to negotiate with Iran.

REP. STEVE KING (R) IOWA: It shows he will negotiate with the Iranians.

REP. CRUZ: Negotiate with the nation of Iran.

REP. KRISTI NOEM (R) SOUTH DAKOTA: Who he refers to America as being

HAYES: But, wait a second --

REP. TOM COLE, (R) OKLAHOMA: You can talk to the Iranians. You can talk
to the Russians --

HAYES: -- I`ve heard that talking point a lot.

REP. COLE: -- you can`t talk to the Republicans?

HAYES: -- Let me just ask you this questions. If it is --

REP. COLE: Well, it`s a good talking point.


HAYES: -- It is a good talking point. But, that what it is.


HAYES (voice-over): Republicans cling so tightly to their message to
obscure one thing, Obamacare, the original reason Republicans shut down the
U.S. government. Well, it looks like it might be working. Disney just
announced they will be offering full-time positions to 427 part-time
employees in Florida to qualify for Obamacare.

And, across the country, people are signing up for Obamacare. People like
Butch Matthew, a Republican, who signed up for Obamacare after he realized
it would save him $13,000. Kimberly Hickok, an uninsured worker was
relieved after she signed up.

KIMBERLY HICKOK (ph), QUALIFIED FOR OBAMA CARE: I found out today that --
that I do qualify at my level and -- so I`m excited about that.

HAYES (voice-over): Reverend Donald Morton didn`t have insurance before
this week.

REV. DONALD MORTON, 21ST CENTURY PREACHER: I, myself, was not approved for
health care because of pre-existing conditions. So, while I`m a pastor,
while I have a PhD, I`m a regular citizen.


HAYES: Joining me now is Republican Congressman Blake Farenthold from
Texas. And, Congressman, I feel like I have lost the plot a little bit
with the shutdown. So, I just want to start with points of agreement,
which is that you want to defund Obamacare, right?

REP. BLACK FARENTHOLD, (R) TEXAS: Listen, we have already given up
defunding Obamacare. We just want fairness now, where if you don`t want to
sign up for Obamacare as an individual, you don`t have to --

HAYES: Wait --

FARENTHOLD: -- we have already given --

HAYES: Is it your now -- is it your now position that you no longer
support defunding Obamacare?

FARENTHOLD: Listen, I have -- I support defunding Obamacare --

HAYES: Right.

FARENTHOLD: -- but, we have already given that up in our third pitch to
the United States Senate. We are saying, let`s treat individuals --

HAYES: No. But, here`s the thing --

FARENTHOLD: -- the same way that we treat corporations and labor unions --

HAYES: -- why is it --

FARENTHOLD: -- and big donors to Obama.

HAYES: -- But, here`s what it looks like right now. This is how I
understand the shutdown. The Republicans are shutting down the government
because the president and Harry Reid won`t let them un-shut down certain
parts of the government.

FARENTHOLD: That`s not the case at all. We are ready --

HAYES: But, that`s all you`re talking about. No one`s talking about

FARENTHOLD: We have agreed to un-fund -- in one of our offers to the
Senate, we agreed to un-fund 100 percent of the government including
Obamacare, which was a stretch for me as a conservative. All we were
asking was that individuals not be fined if they don`t sign up, if they
choose not to. Anybody who wants to, can. That was our last offer --

HAYES: Right. You want --

FARENTHOLD: -- But, the president, politically saying, is insisting on
shutting down the government.


HAYES: But, Congressman, I just want us to be honest here. The reason
you want to delay the individual mandate is because you don`t like
Obamacare and you want to get rid of it. I just don`t understand the
hiding the ball.

A week ago, at least, your caucus was being honest about this. You guys
don`t like Obamacare. You want to get rid of it. Now, all I`m getting --
this is the message of the day, which I`ve heard from other people, which
is -- were -- you know, we want fairness. But, let`s just be honest here.
You want to get rid of the law!

FARENTHOLD: Absolutely. And, we think --

HAYES: Thank you.

FARENTHOLD: -- the law will collapse under its own weight --

HAYES: Right. Exactly.

FARENTHOLD: -- and we`re trying to mitigate the damage in the meantime.

HAYES: Congressman -- that is the weird thing. Because you think the law
will collapse under its own weight, and this is a thing I can never
understand. You guys see very short and I don`t think you are being
disingenuous. I think you really think this is about the legislation that
is really going to collapse under its weight. I don`t understand why you
won`t just let that play up.

And, I want to read something to you. This is an article from "Bloomberg
Businessweek" of the experience of one call center, who was taking calls on
the first day of signup in Nevada. When the exchange opened 17 minutes
later than 8 a.m. scheduled start time, the website in call centers were
flooded with inquiries.

A worker within the Nevada health exchange said in the first few hours, it
was just raw emotion calling in. People eager for insurance, at times in
tears, wanted to get coverage they didn`t have before. So, why do you want
to take away these people`s health insurance?

FARENTHOLD: We don`t. That is why --

HAYES: Yes, you do. You just told me you want to defund Obamacare.

FARENTHOLD: Our last offer was allowing anybody --

HAYES: You voted to defund Obama care four days ago.

FARENTHOLD: -- who wants to sign up, and believe me, that was a stretch
for a lot of us.

HAYES: Congressman Blake Farenthold from Texas, thank you so much.

FARENTHOLD: My pleasure.

HAYES: Joining me now is Senator Tammy Baldwin, Democrat from Wisconsin
and a member of the Senate budget committee. Well, Congressman was making
a reasonable question. You just delay the individual mandate for a year.
What`s wrong with that?

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN, (D) WISCONSIN: Well, this is about the government
shutdown, and we need to focus right now on re-opening the government.
This is not the context in which to deal with their animosity to the
affordable care act. And, that`s the crisis that`s facing us right now,
frankly. We sent, from the Senate, a continuing funding resolution to the
House of Representatives last Friday.

They need to act. It is time. Speaker Boehner needs to put that
continuing funding resolution for six weeks now. He needs to put it before
the House. We are very confident there would be a bipartisan majority who
would pass that, and the government would open up and then we can get to
the negotiations on the debt ceiling as well as the other challenges that
America wants us to be -- to be tackling right now. But, the challenges
are growing our middle class, growing manufacturing jobs, helping out small
businesses --

HAYES: Senator, we are hearing from the Republican leadership, it sounds
like their gaming this out that this is going to be a week and a half. I
mean what is the leverage here? What is the leverage that you in the
Senate or the president has over this House Republican caucus, which
doesn`t seem to be guided by the normal laws of political gravity?

BALDWIN: Well, certainly, when we face the deadline that`s looming on
October 17th, we have something that is of enormous consequence. And, I
was just reflecting earlier today, we saw a video of President Ronald
Reagan addressing the Congress saying, we have never defaulted on our debt,
and I call on Congress to make sure that we don`t cross over that line in -
- this was back in the 1980s, obviously.

This is something that we must not do. And, we have heard earlier today
that that`s a line that most moderate Republicans will not cross. But,
that is I think why they are dragging out this government shutdown. And,
they are putting politics ahead of progress. That is what is so
frustrating to Americans.

You know, we came here -- I ran for the Senate, my counterparts ran for the
House, because we want to be working on the economy. We want to be growing
good jobs for the middle class. We want to be looking at the future and
what the future holds for the next generation. And, the fact that we are
seeing these political games being played is outrageous.

HAYES: Senator Tammy Baldwin of the great state of Wisconsin, one of my
favorites. Thank you so much.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, House Republicans` latest stuntdown -- shutdown stunt.
May be stuntdown, should we call it stuntdown? It involves stethoscopes
and no shame. It is unbelievable. We will be right back.



FEMALE FLIGHT STEWARDESS: I`m sorry I had to wake you. I`m just looking
for a doctor. There is nothing to worry about.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Stewardess, I think the man sitting next to
me is a doctor.

STEWARDESS: Sir, excuse me, sir. I`m sorry to have to wake you. Are you
a doctor?


STEWARDESS: We have some passengers that are very sick. Could you come
take a look at them?



HAYES: Hi, everyone. You may be wondering why I`m wearing this
stethoscope. You know since I`m not a doctor. And, you might look I think
I look pretty ridiculous. Maybe almost as ridiculous as House Republicans
looked this afternoon amid their latest stunt.


TOM PRICE, (R) GEORGIA, REPRESENTATIVE: You know, when the president and
the Senate shut down the government last Tuesday, morning, I don`t think
they realized the impact on things like cancer trials at the NIH for
children with cancer. Look, I have taken care of many children with cancer
when I was in my medical practice, and as a parent, every parent appreciate
the seriousness of that and the need to solve those can kind of problems.


HAYES: That was Georgia Representative Tom Price, with other House
Republicans, introducing a bill to restore funding, just to the national
institutes of health. So, why is that ridiculous? Well, because
Congressman Price is wearing his lab coat and stethoscope, although he
hasn`t practiced medicine since he opted to run for the state Senate?

And, I would imagine that the rest of those House members standing behind
him in lab coats, in case anyone missed it, who once worked in private
practice since doctors haven`t practiced medicine in quite some time
either. And, you can bet that only reason Eric Cantor wasn`t in a white
lab coat is because he doesn`t have a medical degree.

But, if the costuming didn`t tip you off this was a stunt, there are two
other dead giveaways. One, House Republicans did not propose a mini
continuing resolution to fund NIH until this story ran Tuesday in the "Wall
Street Journal," which pointed out that since the government shutdown, the
National Institutes of Health began turning away dozens of children, many
suffering from cancer from drug trials.

Suddenly, when they are getting bad press from the "Wall Street Journal" of
all places, House Republicans find their conscience. And, two, remember,
this is the same House Republican caucus that brought us the real world`s
hurt of sequestration cuts back in January, when it cut NIH funding by
$1.55 billion, which cuts research and delays progress in the development
of better cancer drugs, which will have long-lasting effects, considering
medical breakthroughs do not happen overnight; but, rather three years of
incremental research.

In fact, this specific cut to the NIH was so troubling to us on "All In,"
that we invited Republican Congressman Renee Ellmers on the show, who to
her credit, sponsored a bill to restore the NIH`s funding, because it is
the right thing to do. And, do you know how many votes that bill got?
Zero. And, do you know why it got zero votes? Because House Speaker John
Boehner never brought it to the floor.

Joining me now is Dr. Georges Benjamin, executive director of the American
Public Health Association. Dr. Georges -- Dr. Benjamin, there is an
argument that Republicans are making which is that if you care about cancer
treatment, if you care about what`s happening in the NIH because of the
government shutdown, just fund the NIH. What do you think of that

ASSOCIATION: Hi, Chris. How you doing? You know, my problem with that is
that`s a false choice. I care a lot about those 200 people and 30 kids who
have cancer. But, I also care about the 48 million people who get food-
borne illness every year and the 3,000 who die.

I am concerned about the fact that we are in flu season and we are not
tracking the flu like we ought to. I am concerned about the fact that
hospitals aren`t being adequately regulated, and you know, we have 100,000
people who die each and every year because of medical errors. We have got
a lot of the issues here we have to deal with, and health care as a system,
and that stunt that they pulled just doesn`t cut it.

HAYES: There have been a lot of effects -- from sequestration even before
we got to the shutdown, CDC was doing cancer screenings that had to be cut
back. Have you seen in your role as sort of running a public health
organization? Have you seen the effects of that?

DR. BENJAMIN: You know, we have lost over 44,000 local health department
workers over the last few years, both because of the federal and local cuts
because of the economy. And, the sequestration and these cuts at the
federal level have just made that worse. We are having -- we are losing
whole programs including our bioterrorism preparedness programs. Big cuts
there. So, we are having significant problems throughout the health care

HAYES: Is there an argument that you can make to the public about the
importance of investing in these kinds of programs, and what ends up
happening -- the reason that we are talking about NIH cuts and being shut
down is because it is part of the discretionary budget that has been the
focus of such battle between Republicans and Democrats. And, it is rolled
into the other stuff government does. Why does this stuff matter? Why is
it important?

DR. BENJAMIN: You know we often ignore prevention until something bad
happens. And, I can tell you, when I was at the state health department in
Maryland, dealing with -- responding to the tornado that occurred in
Southern Maryland or the anthrax letters or West Nile Virus or the drought.

And, we have had -- you know tornadoes all around the country, we get them
every spring, and we are probably going to get some terribly this spring,
the health departments respond to that. We have had a big flu season. We
had a pandemic flu. Good news was, the mortality was not as high as we
feared, but we did have it. And, flu season comes each and every year and
people need to get their flu shots.

HAYES: Dr. Georges Benjamin, thank you so much for your time --

DR. BENJAMIN: Thank you.

HAYES: -- Joining me now is Ben Domenech publisher of the "Federalist," a
web magazine, senior fellow at the Heartland Institute, conservative Think
Tank and Sam Seder, host of the daily political talk show, "The Majority

All right, Ben, I have been beating up on Republicans all night. I am in a
very red meaty mood this evening because I am super angry and frustrated
about the shutdown. And, I genuinely feel like I have lost the plot on
this thing.

Like, I knew four days ago when they wanted to defund Obamacare -- I guess,
why they were shutting down the government. They seem to think that the
messages of defunding Obamacare doesn`t work, and so now the message is
about the shutdown itself, but I don`t understand why they are shutting the
government down. I want you to answer for me after this break.


HAYES: Democratic Texas State Senator Wendy Davis burst on to the national
political scene after her epic filibuster of a bill restricting abortion a
few months ago. Today, she announced she is running for governor of Texas
and tomorrow I am going to tell you how she is the one who can save
Obamacare. We will be right back.


HAYES: Back now with Ben Domenech and Sam Seder. All right, Ben, why are
Republicans shutting the government down?

the government down because the only way that they know to force the
president to start a negotiation process with them over what they view as
the most vulnerable, the most unpopular aspects of Obamacare. It is
something that they think from their perspective is really the only way
that they can get -- force them to come to the table anymore; because, lets
face it, by this point, after so many negotiations, these guys are just
tired of looking at each other.

And, that`s one of the things that I think is playing into this. I do want
to speak for a moment to what you were saying earlier about the NIH. I
just have to say the NIH funding has gone up dramatically over the years,
and actually that is because of Senate Republicans under Bill Frist,
leading the charge to double NIH spending over the course of about a

And, in fact, there was a Republican measure by Jerry Moran that would have
restored those Sequester cuts that was attached to the Senate budget
earlier this year. Sol, it is not quite fair to say that Republicans
intended to send all these kids kicking and screaming off of the cancer
trials --

HAYES: No, I am not saying that. That is what they have been saying about
Harry Reid for two days.

DOMENECH: Exactly.

HAYES: I am not saying that. In fact, you are right, Bill Frist was an
incredible champion of the NIH. And, basic research -- that is why we had
Renee Ellmers on, right?


HAYES: I mean, I am not saying -- but, the fact of the matter is, the
sequester, which has become the baseline, which Republicans hated but now
embraced, is a baseline that mandates cut. I mean let`s keep in mind. The
number of the sequester, the reason the House couldn`t pass a
appropriations bill on transportation is because the number they had to hit
on that appropriation bill was so low and the cuts were so severe. Their
own caucus couldn`t carry the votes to do it.

SAM SEDER, HOST OF "THE MAJORITY REPORT" SHOW: I just want to get back to
the point of whether or not it is fair to blame the Republicans for what`s
happening with the NIH. Because, you know, basically what we are hearing
from the Republicans is -- you know, basically, we just -- we were stuck on
traffic, we wanted to drive our car on a busy sidewalk. It is not our
fault that people got hit.

And, that is basically the point. You know the idea that the Republicans
are using this as a negotiation of legislation that has already been
litigated and incredibly irresponsible and reckless. It is equivalent to
driving your car on a busy sidewalk and saying, like, you know, my
intention was no to hit people. Well, the fact of the matter is, any
person who knows better, knows that`s what`s going to happen.


DOMENECH: Just as with every negotiation that we have seen in the past,
though, just with H.W. Bush, when it was Democrats shutting down the
government and fighting over the debt ceiling in order to extract tax
increases from him, we have seen this play out in the past. This is the
process that Washington goes through --

SEDER: No, that never happened --

HAYES: No. I understand these historical analogies. In fact, government
shutdowns, like the one we are having right now, are abnormal, but not
extremely freakish, right? We got 17 since the modern budget process was

The most actually under Ronald Reagan and Tip O`Neill, who of course we all
now think of, Chris Matthews just wrote a book about this, about having
this amazing relationship, those were the most shutdowns.

But, the way that they are handling -- they handled the debt ceiling
negotiation in 2011, the way they`re handling it now is genuinely
unprecedented. You have people like Ted Cruz going around saying to
cameras, it`s not that big a deal if we go through.

SEDER: And, historically, the real question is, it had a continuing
resolution or a budget been brought up at that time and the Congress had
the opportunity to vote on it, would they have voted to approve it?

And, the fact is, that bill hits the floor right now. There are enough
members of Congress to pass the continuing resolution. So, you have one
man who is afraid of losing his speakership, essentially, saying, it is
either my losing speakership or the government shutting down.

HAYES: Ben -- What about this idea that Boehner should just bring the
clean CR to the floor for a vote?

DOMENECH: I don`t think that there`s any motivation to do that? I think
there`s more motivation, frankly, after the president`s most recent remarks
to dissuade the people who are worried about the markets, to bring a clean
debt ceiling increase forward as opposed to dealing with the CR.

I think that the shutdown from the perspective of Republicans is actually
working out for them a lot better than they expected, which is one of the
reasons why I don`t think we`re likely to see it end anytime soon.

HAYES: So, wait. That is interesting. You think you could imagine a
clean debt ceiling brought to the floor while the government is still shut
down and the CR -- and the sort of pressure of the shutdown hangs over

DOMENECH: The American people are a lot less concerned about bureaucrats
staying home and not getting pay than they are about the marketplace --


HAYES: Ben, you can`t -- but, here`s the thing. You can`t do this,
though. Because this is the thing -- what you just did there is you just
articulated the sort of deep conservative thinking about this whole thing,
which is that the money that is flowing out of the federal government is
like going into the pockets of the bureaucrats, who aren`t getting their
pay --

DOMENECH: No. But, see here is the thing --

HAYES: -- but we are also talking about the cancer kids getting turned
away from the -- and the women not getting nutritional assistance for
their kids.

DOMENECH: But, see, Chris, this is the situation that Republicans are
actually enjoying now, because from their perspective, they said, you know,
Democrats stuck to the time on the Senate side to carve out things for the
military. Why aren`t they taking time to carve out things for their kids?
It`s setting them up against their own agenda. I think that that is
something that Republicans frankly like to see happen.

HAYES: Yes -- No. You and agreed that they are relishing and enjoying --
they didn`t like the first day of the shutdown, but I absolutely agree with
you that they have loved days two and three. They love going to the World
War II memorial. They love putting on lab coats. They love walking around
with stethoscopes. I don`t know what it`s going to be tomorrow. There is
going to be -- Actually, no. I know -- I do -- I do --

SEDER: -- It is furlough`s National Guard. So, I imagine we are going to
see some Republicans dressed in National Guard outfits.

HAYES: -- No. This is perfect. This is Ben`s point. We have this. This
is a Congressman from Arkansas, I believe. So, here are the headlines on
the WIC program, which is nutritional assistance for women and infant

There is a Congressman from Arkansas, who is now saying -- a Republican
government Congressman saying, "OK, let`s just do funding for WIC. Again,
what is the headline today that`s bad about the shutdown, and then the next
day, here`s a mini CR to fix that thing.

SEDER: I think the thing that -- I think Republicans are deluding
themselves if they think this message is getting across to the American
public. I mean, look, the bottom line is, if the story is big enough to
force people to dress up as doctors, to dress people -- to dress up in such

HAYES: As they were actually doctors.

SEDER: I am sure they pulled it right out of their closet. In fact the
matter is, the stories are big enough to reach the American public. If you
look in the local papers across the country over the past couple of days,
Republicans are getting realmed in editorials.

They are getting realmed in stories about missing women, who cannot be
found because of cut backs, federal cutbacks, of people to go and search
for her. This is happening across the country and Republicans are deluding
themselves if they think these peace meal pieces are going to mean

HAYES: Ben, if you and I agree that a delay in the mandate just not going
to happen -- is not going to happen? --


HAYES: -- I think you and I both agree. What`s the out here?

DOMENECH: I think that`s a question that you have to ask the bulk of
Boehner`s caucus. They have to decide on what the actual victory is. But,
I do think that they`re going to insist on a victory. it depends on the
size and the nature of that, that they are going to insist on a policy of
victory, which is why I think you are going to see a continued can kick and
you are going to see a continued holding to this.

HAYES: But, let me ask you this. Why is it -- we did this thing last
night about -- well, we did a thing last night about the Ryan budget and
how close the current sequestration levels are to the Ryan budget. And,
the thing to me is, when I look around, I look at this as a Keynesian lefty
who wants to see stimulus and thinks the fact that we have all these people
unemployed is absolutely a national scandal and we have a huge demand
problem. I feel like you guys already won. Ben Domenech of the Heartland
Institute and Sam Seder from the "Majority Report," thank you, gentleman,
both. That was good.

DOMENECH: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Our "All In" reporter, Ned Resnicoff has written a lot more about
the impacts of the shutdown. You can check that out over on our website.
He is a fantastic reporter. You should definitely go check those stories
out. Any quick correction before we go. Earlier tonight we played a clip
of Congressman Andy Harris from Maryland and mistakenly identified him as
Congressman Tom Price. That is my bad.

That is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right
now. Good evening, Rachel.

Chris. Thank you, my friend.


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