IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, October 22, 2013

Read the transcript from the Tuesday show


Date: October 22, 2013

Guest: Karen Bass, Josh Barro, Sally Kohn, Ed Conard, Raj Date, Alexis

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Republicans have been scoring a lot of cheap political points on Obamacare
lately because, let`s facing it, has made it easy to do.
When for example your Web site doesn`t work, you leave yourselves open to

But Obamacare also provides a convenient scapegoat to blame for all sorts
of economic ills that either pre-existed or just have nothing to do with
the health care law. Thanks to a new jobs report today, delayed by the
government shutdown, tonight we have facts. One bit of data in particular
that might finally put one of the most insidious lies out of its misery,
that Obamacare is a job killer.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Larry, you say blame the health care law for the
surge in part-time workers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to part-time nation. Not something we want to
be proud of.

HAYES (voice-over): Obamacare is causing a rise in part-time employment.

GRACE-MARIE TURNER: In order to comply with this law, they`re having to
put people on part-time to save their company.

HAYES: You hear it everywhere.

STUART VARNEY, FOX NEWS: There`s been a shift in hiring patterns because
Obamacare is coming.

HAYES: It`s a talking point repeated by pundits of all stripes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can all see the rise in part-time employment labor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are becoming something of a part-time employment


MICHELLE COX, OBAMACARE OPPONENT: We have also cut back on hiring full-
time employees.

HAYES: And by Republican politicians ad nauseam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just when we need a full-time economy, America is
becoming a part-time economy. These are the effects of Obamacare.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: Obamacare is a big reason
we`re turning into a nation of part-time workers.

millions of full-time workers can only find part-time work.

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), MAJORITY LEADER: And we`re seeing our economy
turn from a full-time job economy to a part-time job economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do not want a part time working America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A part-time economy, part-time opportunities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are being divorced from full-time to part-time

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re becoming part-time America because of this law.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: We`re forcing people to go from full-time
work to part-time work.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Obamacare is hurting millions of people. It`s
killing their jobs. It`s forcing them into part-time work.

More and more people into part-time.

Forced into part-time work.

For all the people out of a job, all the people in part-time work.

Losing their jobs, being pushed into part time work.

Who are losing their jobs, being pushed into part time work.

They are losing their jobs, they are forced into part time work.

HAYES: But luckily, we don`t have to rely on politicians, pundits and
anecdotes to tell us what`s going on in the economy, we also have data.
Today, we learned full-time employment is up. And the number of people
part-time involuntarily is down since June. And down even more since last
year when Obamacare wasn`t a factor.

In other words, the trend is moving in the opposite direction of the
talking points. And we you zoom out a couple of years, since the start of
financial crisis, you see the rise in part-time work starts after the crash
and has since gone down. In part, Obamacare has been the law of the land.

That shocked economists like Mark Zandi who thought we were going to see a
rise in part-time work because of Obamacare.

MARK ZANDI, ECONOMIST: Earlier in the year, looking at the ADP data,
looking at job creation around that 15-point threshold, it felt like the
health care reform was having an impact. But by the summer time, that all
disappeared and job growth among those size companies is back to --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get a phone call.

HAYES: But now, Zandi admits that the president`s health care law is not
leading to increased part-time work.

ZANDI: I expected it, I really have. I just haven`t seen it.

HAYES: "The Los Angeles Times" today says today`s job numbers puts the lie
into the popular conservative meme that Obamacare has transformed America`s
workforce into part-timers. "PolitiFact" today, government numbers
actually shows that the fraction of part-time workers in the workforce has
declined since 2010. And "The Wall Street Journal" today finds that a
closer look at the data provides little evidence for the notion that the
health law is driving a shift in part time work.

And yet, the zombie talking point part-time employment persists, because
Obamacare has become the easy scapegoat for people to blame for things that
were already happening in the economy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can you say Obamacare isn`t in part to blame for
more part-timers?

TOM PEREZ, LABOR SECRETARY: We say -- we look at the data. When we hear
anecdotes, we respond to that. But when you look at the aggregate data, it
rather overwhelmingly demonstrates that again, this is a nice talking
point, but it`s just not accurate. It`s part of the confusion campaign
that folks are waging.


HAYES: Joining me now is Congresswoman Karen Bass, Democrat from

And, Congresswoman, now that we have the BLS data, we get some more data in
the few weeks, do you expect -- you just won`t hear this anymore because
the data just shows it isn`t true.

REP. KAREN BASS (D), CALIFORNIA: You know what? I wish I could say that,
but I do think that my Republicans colleagues have shown consistently that
data doesn`t really change their talking points. This has been a multi-
million dollar campaign of confusion and deception and I`m sure you`ve seen
they`re even marketing books that contribute to confusion around health
care reform.

HAYES: One of the things I think that`s happened with the health care law
is something that also happens with the debt and deficit, which is that
people attach it to their economic anxiety about a labor market that`s not
functioning very well in the broadest sense. So, what you get is people
feel like the labor market isn`t functioning, they are right to feel that
way, and then they tag Obamacare as the culprit.

BASS: Right. And I definitely they`re right to feel that way. Can you
imagine if Congress had been functional and we had passed the Jobs Act, if
we didn`t shut down the government over the hysteria over government
reform? You know, our economy shouldn`t be limping along in recovery. It
should be a robust recovery right now and the only reason it isn`t is the
antics led by Republicans.

HAYES: There are also deeper factors in that, though, right? I mean,
Congress has not helped things, but one of the things that we`re seeing is
that the labor market was not really producing great gains for working
people even before the financial crisis, there`s long-term structural
trends in the economy. The financial crisis broke the labor market.

And now, you hear this anecdotal stuff. I`ve heard it myself, oh, I`m
going down to part-time. It also I think become convenient for employers
to point the finger at Obamacare for stuff that they wanted to do anyway.

BASS: Right. I think that`s absolutely right. And I think it is
important that we correct the deceptions, though, because, you know, just
like the problems that are happening with the Web site, when you look at
the state that have embraced health care reform, everybody`s having little
glitches, but the states that have embraced it are doing very well. And I
think it`s something that we have to be very strong in combating.

So employers should not use this as an excuse to cut down their labor

HAYES: Is there any way to sort of jujitsu this around, and basically
start a conversation about job creation in the budget talks that are coming
down the pike? I mean, the problem in the labor market is that we have too
many people out of work.

BASS: Exactly.

HAYES: And a lot of terrible things flow from that. Depressed wages,
(INAUDIBLE) for people at the bottom of the scale, people just graduating
from college. And yet, there doesn`t seem to be any kind of momentum in
Congress towards doing anything in the jobs front that isn`t essentially
repealing Obamacare.

BASS: Right. And, you know, one of the things that all of us know has to
be dealt with this time in the budget talks is a sequester, because we were
told right when that went into effect that that was going to lead to tens
of thousands of jobs lost. So, I think the sequester is one of the first
things we need to deal with, and then maybe my colleagues learned something
when the government shut down.

Remember, they were kind of shock, when you shut down the government,
things actually stop happening, maybe they learned something about that and
so when we go to budget talks this time, dealing with the sequester needs
to be at the top of the agenda.

HAYES: Congresswoman, do you hear from business owners in your district
and constituents, some of these -- this anecdotal discussion of Obamacare
being a job killer, people being capped under 30 hours so that they don`t
qualify for the employer mandate, which I should note won`t go into effect
for another year. Do you hear that? Is that something you interact with
your constituents about?

BASS: Well, it is something that I interact with my constituents about,
but it`s primarily from the point of view of confusion, people just being
confused because they hear what the Republicans put out there in that other
network puts out there and it`s led to a lot of confusion. So, I`ll tell
you, one of the things we have done in my district is a telephone town
halls, we`re doing a town hall to sign people up. But in a state like
California, there is no reason for some of this confusion, except for the
fact that millions of dollars have been put into a very deliberate

HAYES: Congresswoman Karen Bass, thank you so much.

BASS: Thanks.

HAYES: Joining me now, Josh Barro, politics editor for "Business Insider",
and economist Dean Baker, co-director for the Center for Economic and
Policy Research.

Dean, I was try today to not make this a straw man, so I was looking for
the best case argument that Obamacare was having a negative effect or was
pushing people toward part time work.

And the best thing I could find is the guy by the name of Jed Graham (ph)
at "Investors Business Daily", who has been looking at the average hours
worked of people down in the wage scale making around $14, a $15 an hour.
And he says, it sets a record low in July, a look at BLS data, it`s about
20 minutes a week lower than it was before.

But that`s about the best I could find. Do you think -- even if it`s not
having a macro effect that it might be having an effect on low wage

DEAN BAKER, ECONOMIST: I think it`s almost inconceivable it`s having a
measurable effect. It means someone, somewhere has had their hours cut,
that`s absolutely true. But my colleague Len Jorgensen (ph) and I looked
at the data on the percentage of the workforce that`s working less than 30
hours a week and we compared the first six months of 2013 with the first
six months of 2012 and it had actually fallen?

Now, can you find subgroup somewhere that it`s increased? You have to be
able to. That`s the way the world works. That`s the data. That`s

But the idea that this has had noticeable effect, that just doesn`t make
any sense.

HAYES: Josh, do you think this talking point is running out of steam as
the data comes in, because I think a year or two years ago, it was a
reasonable hypothesis to say there might be this unintended consequence,
you`ve got an employer mandate. It creates a hard threshold of 30 hours,
let`s run the experiment. Maybe it`s going to happen.

JOSH BARRO, BUSINESS BARRO: I don`t think it was never a reasonable
hypothesis because the set of people in the labor market likely to be
affected by this is pretty small. You have to be working more than 30
hours a week. You have to not be getting health insurance from your
employer, and you probably have to be a pretty low wage worker, because
this $2,000 penalty is the reason that employers might move people to part-
time work. There`s a penalty if you have a full time employee who you
don`t get health insurance.

HAYES: Right.

BARRO: If you a high wage worker, who for some reason isn`t insured, that
$2,000 probably doesn`t make you want to cut their hours.

HAYES: Right.

BARRO: So, there aren`t that many of this kind of people in the economy.
If you look at Jed Graham`s numbers and you take the most generous,
possible interpretation of them, it suggests that maybe you`ve had about
100,000 people who have been pushed down from full-time work to part time
work. There are 150 million people in the U.S. workforce.

So, that means about one out of every 15 workers has had their hours cut.

But I note, this is about a penalty that`s not going to be in effect for
another 14 months. So, I think you could see some measurable effects from
this. I don`t think you`re going to see millions of Americans pushed out
into part-time work like Ted Cruz is saying, but hundreds of thousands,

HAYES: One out of 1,500 is a smaller percentage than the amount of times
it has been invoked in the debate. I mean, that`s crazy.

We had our incredible, incredible producers and tape editors who are
searching through this today. It`s a gold mine because it is said all the

And it`s one of these things, Dean, it`s one of those facts that becomes
truth or repetition that I have heard said back to me by people at
barbecues, at diners, in bars. These are not ideologues. These are people
who said, well, my cousin got his hours cut because of Obamacare, it is
definitely out there.

BAKER: Chris, we looked at this because my mother is a big fan of you, and
MSNBC in general, assured me that that was happening because she went down
to the movie theater and they were cutting everyone`s hours. So, I
arranged to do Helena Jorgensen, my colleague, and it`s not showing up in
the data.

HAYES: It`s a rare son that fact checks his mother on national television.

BAKER: She`ll get me for that.

HAYES: So here`s the deeper question. I think this worry about part-time
work is a convenient way of focusing people`s anxiety about a job market
that every month we get jobs numbers that are screaming out policymakers,
hello, hello, the job market is broken.

BARRO: Sure. I mean, and the public is not very good at looking at the
economy and figuring out --

HAYES: It`s got a job, too (ph).

BARRO: So, I think you`re right the Republicans have latched on into this.
But I think there`s also an opportunity here for liberals that was missed,
when you impose this employer mandate on Obamacare, the idea was to get
employers to take on their responsibility to provide health insurance.

HAYES: Let me just quickly say, the employer mandate, so people are clear,
because there`re two different mandates. There`s an employer mandate in
the law that says we have above 50 employees, you have to provide health
insurance to your full-time employees or pay a penalty.

BARRO: Right. So if you didn`t have that penalty, you probably would get
a lot of employers dropping health care coverage, especially for low wage
workers and telling them to go buy in the exchanges.

You`re seeing some of this with part-time workers like Trader Joe`s is
getting rid of his health care coverage for people who work less than
30,000. It`s getting them a payment of about $500. And what a lot of
those workers are finding is it`s cheaper for them to go by exchange
coverage, that it was for them to make their employee contribution toward
the health plan they got from Trader Joe`s before.

This is s effectively a wage --


BARRO: for low wage workers and we might want more employers.

HAYES: Dean, what are you going to say?

BAKER: I was just saying, it has nothing to do with the sanctions because
these were employees that were putting in less than 30 hours a week.

HAYES: That`s exactly right. And, in fact, one of the things that I think
if the law was is to be successful, right, more people might be moving into
that exchange, if gets active and competitive and robust.

BARRO: Right, and if we didn`t have the sanction on employers for full-
time work, I think, you know, that only would the small effects that we
might see what people are getting push down to part-time work, that would
not be an issue. You might actually see a real increase in wages for those
low wage full-time workers.

So, I think when we`re looking for something to deal with the fact that we
have a bad labor market, especially at the bottom end, getting rid of the
employer mandate might be good for reasons other than the fact that it
affects the unemployment rate.

HAYES: Dean, what are you seeing in the numbers about the sad as the labor

BAKER: Well, it continues to be very weak. I mean, the latest data, you
know, the 148,000 jobs a month. I mean, we weren`t growing all that fast
even if you go back to the first six months of the year. But we`re looking
at 170,000 to 180,000, now the last three months we`re looking at 140,000,

You have to remember, we`re in a hole. We`re down 9 million jobs. We have
to create 100,000 a month just to keep pace for the growth of labor force.

So, if you`re making that up at the rate of 450,000 a month, we`re going to
have to have this conversation like 2028 before we`re back at full
employment. That`s not a good story.

HAYES: Yes, I would rather.

Josh Barro from "Business Insider" and economist Dean Baker, thank you

Coming up --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Obama suggested applying for the exchanges the old-
fashioned way.

call centers is 1-800-318-2596.

OPERATOR: Please state the name of your state you`re calling about.


We called moments after the president spoke, but there were problems there,

The president was just on television. He said call this 800 number if
you`re having problems with the Web site. So, I`m calling.


HAYES: That was al Jazeera America`s White House correspondent Mike
Viqueira, taking part in the new cable news party game that involves trying
to sign yourself up for Obamacare and reporting on your failure to America.

But someone else tried to do the same thing and had a frustrating but
successful experience. And she will be here to tell us about it, ahead.


HAYES: We always love to hear from you on Facebook and Twitter. If you
ask conservatives how to cure unemployment, a bunch might tell you to start
by getting rid of Obamacare. What about you?

My question for you today is, what is your prescription for job growth?
Tweet your answers, serious or snarky, @allinwithchris, or post at I`ll share a couple at the end of the show.
So, stay tuned.

We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been trying since day one to get an account and
login on I failed again.

You couldn`t make this page work.

And again.

It wouldn`t log me in.

And again.

It`s not working.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, so I`m starting all over. That`s not a valid
answer? The system is unavailable. I`m logging in again. Look, it`s a
sad face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I were signing up for myself, this is where my
patients would be exhausted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your account couldn`t be created at this time. The
system is unavailable.


HAYES: By now, you have probably seen news stories showing a reporter
trying and failing to get on to It`s like a whole genre of
TV news spawned on October 1st.

While these stories have helped illustrate the genuinely troubled Obamacare
rollout, they also have a big limitation, which is that television
reporters who already have benefits aren`t the ones who actually need
health care exchanges.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elizabeth, it turns out, it`s not about you, is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it`s not about me. Now, I have been doing this
as a journalistic endeavor. But many other people, they really need health
care insurance and they say that they`re really frustrated that this isn`t
working for them.


HAYES: Indeed, what will ultimately make or break Obamacare is whether the
people who actually need affordable decent health care coverage can get it.

Step one is getting to the Web site. Today, we found a really interesting
testimonial from one of the people who managed to do so in a surprising
place, the Web site of FOX News. That`s where Sally Kohn wrote about her
difficult but ultimately successful effort to sign up on the health care
exchange in New York and the much better deal she will get as a result.

Sally`s story did not escape the attention of President Obama`s Twitter
account, which last night tweeted out her story, complete with FOX News

And Sally Kohn joins me now.

It`s great to have you here.

OK. Tell me about the circumstances in which you, not as a reporter, not
as a commentator, as someone who actually needs health care in the
individual market place went to the exchange to get it.


You know, there are a couple of things that people should know about my
story. First of all, I`m in New York. I have the privilege of being in a
state where our state government has not tried to sabotage the
implementation of Obamacare or handed it off to federal government. We
have an effective and self-interested government that wants it to work

And also, New York has historically had the highest individual insurance
market premiums in the country. So there`s a lot at stake here. My
insurance to put it briefly is really crummy right now.

A year ago, I was paying 1,600 bucks for me, my partner and my kid. Then -
- because it was such bad insurance anyway, $3,000 deductible, the out-of-
pockets were in the neighborhood of 10,000. I lowered down to a bronze
level if you will and was paying $965 a month.

HAYES: $965 a month, which is a lot of money. Out of pocket, in an
individual market.

KOHN: A lot of money with a $7,000 deductible, $36,000 out of pocket max
for the year. Plus, by the way, a $2 million annual cap, which by the way
let`s --

HAYES: Right, exactly, is illegal under the Affordable Care Act. If you
got really sick or your partner got really sick --

KOHN: Two million, come on.

HAYES: So, your experience, you go on, what happens?

KOHN: So, I mean, look, I`m not going to sugar coat it. It took me a
while, right? I mean, it took me a good week of trying.

HAYES: They weren`t making up that the Web site didn`t work.

KOHN: The Web site stinks. It`s an abomination. And, you know, look, if
it took a while to get working, too, and this is complicated and
I get that.

And certainly, the federal exchange, which has sort of huddle these
responsibilities offloaded unto it, that`s a big effort. But, yes, there`s
actually a point which I shook my computer out of frustration, it was just
not working over and over again.

HAYES: You finally did get through after about a week?

KOHN: Took me about a week. And I finally -- it was sort of early morning
on a weekend, because my kid like your kid is awake at 7:00 in the morning
on a weekend. And so, I thought I`d try it. Finally, I was able -- I
mean, I had gotten through pieces of the process throughout the week.

Finally, I was able to get through, sign up and look at all my plans. And
there were 50 plans that were more affordable than my current insurance.

Now, let me be clear -- I already had one of the most affordable individual
insurance policies in New York. I already had what was considered at the
time a good deal. And now, there were 50 better options? Like, is it

HAYES: OK. So, we have a little full screen of what the sort of the new
insurance looks like, the sort of statistics, or the savings at least.
You`re saving, you have a much lower deductible. You have a lower out of
pocket max, right? You`re saving money.

KOHN: Win, win, win. Like I said, I could have picked 50, a lot of people
look at them and they`ll say, $2,000 deductible. You`re paying $931 a
month. I could have picked the lower plan, which is slightly higher
deductible. I could have either way, it still would have been a lower
deductible than my current deductible.

So, either way I pick, I won.

HAYES: And the other thing I think that was interesting about the piece
was you made the point -- that`s funny, I was tooling around on one of the
private Oscar, which is this new Web site. I should disclose by saying
that my brother now works there.

I was tooling around looking at their comparison plans. And the one thing
I thought was like, oh, this would take a while, like I`m not used to the
enterprise of doing this kind of comparison shopping.

KOHN: Yes, I mean, a couple of things. So, first of all, it took a really
long time in the first place when I had to pick. It took me on and off
about five days, because there was no one place you could go. There were
sort of brokered sites.

HAYES: Oh, you`re saying before Obamacare? Right.

KOHN: Before Obamacare, it was a mess. I had to go in private insurance
company by private insurance company, compared apples and oranges. It took
a very long time. So, even with the Web site glitches, it took me about
four hours total to save, you know, over $5,000.

Come on, that`s good money. But, yes, the actual picking between 50
different insurance plans, part of the reason people aren`t showing up is
because the Web sites are glitchy. Part of the reason people aren`t
signing up yet is, A, the deadline hasn`t come up yet, and, B, it takes a
while to figure this stuff out.

HAYES: It`s not a novelty purchase by the cash register that you grab
under late hours.

KOHN: It`s not picking up a hamburger. You`re not like, oh, I like
cheese, no, it`s not that simple.

HAYES: I want to play this. Jack Reed (ph) who does these great video
blogs and his brother, which people should check out, he did this
experiment. He applied for Obamacare and he also apply just through a
private health insurance Web site. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even with all the server errors, it was more than twice
as fast to apply under the Affordable Care Act private exchanges than it
was to apply in the old way. And it was also much les confusing and
intrusive. Like in the old way, I have to list every single time I went to
the doctor. And in a new way, they didn`t ask me anything except whether I

As far as I can tell you, it has gotten dramatically better even though the
government could stand to buy some new servers.


HAYES: He made this great point and it reminded me when I was in the
individual market when I was a freelancer living in Chicago, when I did not
have employer, which is that you have to answer so many questions under the
old unregulated regime. When you talk about surgery, have you ever -- how
much are you drinking?

And now, you have this standardized way in.

KOHN: I mean, I literally spent more time hitting the refresh button and
waiting for the servers than I spent answering questions. It just was that

HAYES: Columnist Sally Kohn, thank you so much. Great to have you here.

KOHN: Glad to be here.

HAYES: Coming up --


CRUZ: I cannot tell you how many Texans across our great state have
grabbed me by the shoulder and they said, "Please, I`m afraid for my kids
and my grandkids. If we keep bankrupting this country, if we keep going
down this road, we`re going to lose the future, the prosperity, the
opportunity that has made this country the greatest county on earth.


HAYES: Texas Senator Ted (AUDIO GAP) conservatives do best when it comes
to talking about this nation`s debt. It turns out, though, no one is
screwing the next generation more than they are. I`ll explain ahead.


HAYES: When you listen to conservatives pushing austerity in order to
introduce budget deficits, they always tell you it`s for the children.


REP. JOE BARTON (R), TEXAS: We`re trying to protect our children and our
grand children`s future and the president just wants business as usual,
spend money we don`t have.

CANTOR: We have seen unprecedented spending and mounting of debt that will
impact not only us but our children.

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: The Senate hasn`t passed a budget for four
years. That`s wrong. We have a fiscal crisis in this country. It is
hurting our economy. It is guaranteeing that our children and our
grandchildren have a diminished future--


HAYES: OK. You know the argument. The current generation is running
deficits and borrowing money. Future generation will have to pay back. We
are saddling them with debt. But here`s the thing, when we take a look at
the generation of people who are most affected by the current job market,
one that`s been hammered by austerity, budget cuts, public sector layoffs
and serial fiscal crises, we find that it is young people who are getting

And, they are getting crushed right now, not in the future. Here is a
snapshot of today`s jobs report. For young people between the ages of 20
and 24, the unemployment rate is nearly six points higher than the national
average. And, that`s just the half of it. Barely more than 20% of 18 to
24-year-olds had a full-time job for all of last year, which is down from
nearly 30% before the recession.

Then, if you look at wages, the median income of households, headed by
Americans under 25 fell by more than 1.5% last year. Talk to any recent
college graduate or young person and the story is the same. Trying to get
a job is a brutal exercise in futility. And, it`s showing up in the data.
A new study out yesterday found that a record 15% of people between the
ages of 16 and 24 are neither in school nor working.

That`s 6 million young people. That is the makings of a lost generation.
These people are some of these are actual children of the same members of
congress and pundits who are so infatuated with austerity, an agenda that
is making the prospects of young people worse as I speak.

Macroeconomic advisors have find that the combination of austerity and all
the crises imposed by Tea Party Republicans have caused the U.S. economy`s
2.5 million jobs since January 2011, shaved almost1.5 points off of our GEP
since last fall. And, without the sharp cuts to public services and
investments we would not have lost more than 600,000 public sector jobs.

And, this isn`t just a temporary hiccup in which you can hold your breath
and it all goes away -- No. Today`s young people who are graduating with
record levels of student loan debt more than a $27 thousand dollars per
student borrower, totaling more than $1 trillion; these financial
impediments become social impediments. You think twice without getting
married and taking risks, starting enterprises and striking out on your

And, here`s the most damaging part of all of this. Having the bad luck of
graduating into a bad labor market will haunt you for years. One study
found that young people who entered the job market during recession not
only have lower wages in their first job, but unlucky graduates suffer
persistent earning declines lasting ten years, which for some can mean a
lifetime of reduced overall earnings and savings.

If you really, sincerely care about children, the most important thing
right now is to get the labor market working, right now. End
sequestration, no more government shutdowns, no more induced crises.
Invest in a nation-wide jobs program. Get to full employment whatever it
takes. And, if you need a high-minded justification to tell your
constituents, tell them the truth. Tell them you are doing it for the


HAYES: Coming up, we`ll test the hypothesis that it`s only government that
faces no accountability for big-time screw ups by taking a look at
everyone`s favorite megabank.


HAYES (voice-over): But first, I want to share the three awesomest things
on the internet today. We begin in Missouri where we say thank you to a
man with a familiar name.

littered synthetic drug wrappers we found near the location of one of the
raids. This is big business.

HAYES (voice-over): That is Chris Hayes, investigative reporter from FOX 2
News in St. Louis, where he lives with his wife and two boys. He has won
Seven Emmy awards and by all accounts he is an interrupted (ph) reporter.

HAYES, FOX 2 NEWS: Demanded we leave the property, a sign on the front
door of one of our stores says it all, no media or reporters especially
Chris Hayes.

HAYES (voice-over): Now, that is a badge of honor for a journalist. But,
another thing about Chris Hayes is that Fox 2`s Chris Hayes should not be
confused with MSNBC`s Chris Hayes. In the end, he is -- night after night,
he is bombarded on twitter by people thinking interacting with this show.

And, the thing is he could not be nicer to them. Tweeting responses like,
"Very nice complement, but it should be directed to Chris L. Hayes. I work
in St. Louis. Even to the mean ones like people saying, "You`re an idiot."
He is exceptionally patient. "Thank you, but you are looking for Chris L.
Hayes. It is a common mistake." And, when people offer an apology, he is
still a gentleman. "No apology necessary. I certainly got the better
Twitter handle." Right you are TV`s Chris Hayes, right you are.

The second awesomest thing on the internet today, when you are running for
political office, it should be a distinct advantage to have the Duggar
family campaigning for you. For one thing, there are 19 of them. They are
also all reality`s TV stars. So, it seemed like a no-brainer when
Virginia`s republican candidate for governor, Ken Cuccinelli had the
Duggars at a rally last week. Until this happened.

contrast between Ken Cuccinelli and his opponent, Terry -- Mac -- Who is

MICHELLE DUGGAR, REALITY T.V. PERSONALITY: You just said his opponent.

HAYES (voice-over): The elder Duggar`s flub prompted a spoof by the
Youtube Channel "Heavy Crude" video.

JAMES DUGGAR: Hold on a second here. OK, Terry -- I didn`t say that --


JAMES DUGGAR: McAuliffe. McAuliffe. McAuliffe. OK. OK. All right.
There`s such a -- let me try again -- there`s such a stark contrast between
-- let me try it again. I get tongue twisted here. It is a long day. All
right. There`s such a stark contrast between -- let me try again. OK,
it`s such a stark contrast between Ken Cuccinelli and Terry McCaskey --


JAMES DUGGAR: McAuliffe -- Yes. Between -- OK --

MICHELLE DUGGAR: You just said his opponent.

JAMES DUGGAR: -- And, his opponent. OK.

ANNOUNCER: Nailed it.

HAYES (voice-over): With a roll call of all the children all beginning
with a letter J. You think the Duggars would be able to get from one tiny
name like McAuliffe. And, the third awesomest thing on the internet today,
this guy is on a roll. Meet Josh Sundquist, he is a Paralympics skier,
author and motivational speaker and he has a great sense of humor about

JOSH SUNDQUIST, PARALYMPICS SKIER: I got one leg but a smile on my face.
You could be smiling too if you had my parking space. My leg is cut off
way up at the hip, but uses knees crutches. I run pretty quick.

HAYES (voice-over): But, Josh had also become known for his great
Halloween costumes that only he could pull off. In 2010, he could be
called a tribute from this scene from Shrek with this half eaten
gingerbread man costume. Last year, he is even more inspired going to a
leg lamp from a Christmas story, but he topped everything this year.

Yes, that is Josh upside down in a pink bodysuit on crutches as a flamingo.
Forget it everyone else, Josh won Halloween. You can find all the links
for tonight`s Click 3 on our website, We`ll be right


HAYES: Big complicated institutions from governments to banks have to
undertake big complicated tasks. And, if you listen to conservatives` tell
it the private sector creates the conditions for competence while the
public sector cuddles failure. There is a pretty big counter example that
has been in the news lately, maybe you`ve hard of it.


HAYES (voice-over): has had some major problems and it`s
become a test case for conservatives who say when government does big
things, it fails because there`s no accountability for malfeasance.

people who designed this website shouldn`t be in charge of our health care.
The government is going to botch this.

would argue as more traumatic than that. It`s a sign that big government
can do big things.


HAYES (voice-over): But, needs is the discipline and
accountability of the private markets. So, let`s test that hypothesis and
go north to the financial capital of the world in one of the largest and
most successful banks in America, JPMorgan Chase led by CEO Jamie Dimon.

Here is JPMorgan Chase`s rap sheet of just the past few years of Dimon`s
tenure. June 2010, $48.6 million fine co-mingling bank and client funds in
London. April 2011, $56 million settlement for mortgage overcharges for
about 6,000 active duty service members. June 2011, $153.6 million in
penalties, from SEC charges of misleading investors.

July 2011, 228 million dollar settlement for charges of 93 rigged municipal
bond transactions in 31 states. And, the list goes on. Nine other
instances of settlements, penalties, fines, re-payments in cases ranging
from allegations of price fixing on credit card fees to electricity market
manipulation to improper home foreclosures to yesterday`s news.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: JPMorgan in the process of making a huge $13
billion settlement with the federal government, but criminal charges are
still possible.

HAYES (voice-over): At the same time, JPMorgan was doing all these things.
The private sector was more or less rewarding the bank. Stock price
dipping with big scandals with the infamous "London Whale" trading disaster
but ultimately going up. The compensation of the chief executive Jamie
Dimon totaling more than $61 million from 2010 through 2012 alone, and the
accolades are more affordable.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The stocks are up, taunting a 10-year high. It is a
cash generating machine, sure they have had their regulatory your issues,
but he`s looking to settle them expeditiously at this point, which is
everything you want to see.

HAYES (voice-over): This quarter, JPMorgan posted a loss because of all
the legal expenses, but under Jamie Dimon, that didn`t come from the hand
of the market. That came from regulators, journalists and activists
holding JPMorgan to account.


HAYES: And, they are just now learning amazingly in the last few hours of
yet another settlement of the works JPMorgan chase is nearing a $6 billion
settlement with institutional investors, resolved claims that it misled
mortgage back securities according to people familiar with the matter.

Joining me now is Ed Conard former partner of Bain Capital who have worked
with Mitt Romney; Raj Date, the first deputy director of the U.S. Consumer
Financial Protection Bureau now managing partner at Fenway Summer from
specializes in consumer finance, advisory and investment and Alexis
Goldstein, communications director for t other 98% nonprofit grassroots
network of activist.

All right, Alexis, beginning with you, when you look at the rap sheet, you
can put up -- this is the past three years, which comes from U.S.A today.
What is going on at that bank? Is there something special there? Is this
-- that they are worse at getting caught than other banks? Like what is
going on there?

I don`t think that they are any worse or better than any other banks, but I
think it is important to know that Jamie Dimon and JPMorgan Chase is held
up as the pinnacle of wall street.

And, in this $13 billion proposed settlement, Jamie Dimon is essentially
admitting that $13 billion, which is half of their net income from last
year was acquired through criminal means and illegal actions. And, so, if
that is what is happening at the best banks on Wall Street, what the heck
is happening at the rest of the banks? How much of the rest of the bank`s
profits because of criminal activity and ripping the face of the American

HAYES: We should say that under the settlement terms basically they are
not pleading to criminal activity, they are essentially no -- and DOJ has
retained the right to pursuit criminal prosecution. But, Ed Conard what do
you think of that. I mean, there seems to be more than a little to that.
I mean the rap sheet is kind of remarkable. It makes you wonder what the
heck is going on?

mischaracterization there that half their earnings from last year represent
fraudulent activity. This $13 billion and the $6 billion that follow are
largely coming from activities that were carried out before the financial
crisis by Bear Stearns and Washington mutual, a lot of it is. And,
remember that JPMorgan bought this almost from zero. So, they assumed the
liabilities --

HAYES: Right.

CONARD: -- and these are settlements from deeds they went before, not
deeds that they did last year.

HAYES: Right.

CONARD: Not to say that they didn`t make the same mistakes last year, but

HAYES: OK, right. So, the point, though, is that the book was built in
the -- I mean, the book of business that was JPMorgan, was built and they
made a lot of money in the run up to the crisis, during the subprime
period. My understanding that the DOJ settlement actually and people
should just be clear on this -- under, in the midst of the crisis, right? -
- JPMorgan Chase acquired Washington mutual. Washington Mutual did a lot
of shady stuff. They assumed that book of business. This settlement --
Alexis am I right? -- or Raj can you clarify this for me? This settlement
doesn`t actually touch the Washington mutual stuff, right?

details, but I do think it`s important to realize that this is probably not
different in kind than a lot of the activity that we have seen in courts
and in settlements today. This is probably different in degree. But,
rather, let`s take a big step back.

During the crisis, you had some 20% to 30% of housing value in the country
decline, which meant that like $5 trillion, $6 trillion, or $7 trillion on
paper at least have disappeared. And, so, you know between investors and
mortgage originators and rating agencies and trusties and the governments,
everyone has been suing everyone else for five years.

HAYES: Right.

DATE: And, when you have between the aggregation of Bear Stearns and
Washington Mutual and JPM, the very large mortgage originators selling
mortgages before the crises into Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac, the biggest
investors in the nations, naturally -- you know, if they were problems
broadly, which there definitely were, you ought to expect some pretty big
numbers and I assume that, that is --

GOLDSTEIN: But, I think we need to make sure that we also take a step back
and look at what this settlement contains --

HAYES: All right. I want you to hold that exact thought and continue
right after we take this break.


HAYES: Earlier in the show I asked what your prescription for job growth
was, we got many answers posted to our Facebook and Twitter accounts
including Michael Arken from Facebook, who says "Infrastructure, fix the
bridges, fix the roads, fix the power grid." Flo from Facebook says,
"Immigration reform + $10 minimum wage = jobs, jobs, jobs." And, Pamela
Hazlett asked, "Hey, how about passing the jobs bill?"



ALEX PAREENE, SALON POLITICAL WRITER: I think any time you`re looking at
the greatest fine in the history of Wall Street regulation, it`s really
worth asking, is this guy -- should this guy stay in his job? -- and, any
other industry. If he managed the restaurant and he got the biggest health
department fine in the history of restaurants -- yes but the restaurant is
making a lot of money. There`s only a little bit of poison in the food.


HAYES: We are back. I am here with Ed Conard, Raj Date, Alexis Goldstein.
Alexus, I cut you off. You were making a point about the broader context
of this.

GOLDSTEIN: So, we have to understand that this settlement is actually the
mashing together of multiple lawsuits and multiple open investigations.
$13 billion looks like an eye-popping number at first. But, you have to
take a step back. If we took out just one lawsuit that this settlement
covers, the New York attorney general sued JPMorgan because investors lost
$22.5 billion because of crappy mortgage back securities that they were
sold by JPMorgan.

And, I just wanted to make a point to what Ed said earlier, which is that
some of this is about before the crisis and the thing that Washington
mutual did or things that Bear Stearns did. No one on Wall Street
purchased this or acquires a company without understanding that they take
on the liability of the company that they are purchasing.

HAYES: Right. Exactly.

GOLDSTEIN: -- So, just because Washington Mutual or you know Bear with the
people selling these mortgages, that does not indemnify JPMorgan from the
crimes that they went into it with open eyes. They purchased those
companies. They were the top bidder. There were four people betting for
Washington Mutual. They didn`t have to be the highest bidder.

HAYES: Raj, I want you -- the first thing that Alexis said -- in terms of
the money, this is an eye popping number, but actually the number on the
table was an eye popping number. I guess my question is when we look at
all the combined fines and penalties. I can`t tell is this the system
working or failing to work like which is it? Is this -- "Oh, this is going
to produce the accountability that makes sure this never happens again" or
"is this a speeding ticket, a slap on the wrist and essentially the cost of
doing business that can be written down?"

DATE: No. I think it`s -- Chris, I think it is kind of neither. I think
this in particular I can`t speak to all the other things that have happened
in the last few years, which is -- institution. But, this kind of
resolution is still part of the law, painful hangover from the worst period
in residential mortgage lending in the history of the world.

We had a financial system that was systematically making comical credit
decisions at ridiculous crisis for a period of years and that creates real
damage to actual people and real pain to actual investors and the notion
that it`s not going to take a long time and it is not going to cause a lot
of money to remediate.

I think as far as it goes -- I think that`s what it`s about. We have a
broken system and this is part of fixing it and the nice thing I think
about the financial reform that`s already been undertaken is that this kind
of ridiculous outcome actually can`t happen again, like a lot of the bad
practices of the past, actually can`t be done now.

HAYES: I suspect Alexis, disagrees with you. But, Alexis, before you
voice that disagreement, do you see this as the system working? And, how
do you understand these fines and penalties in the context of market
discipline? Like it seems to me that the market wasn`t actually doing a
very good job of holding JPMorgan to account, that it took this kind of
regulators in the DOJ and journals and others to expose this.

CONARD: I think there are several risks here. They are conflated. We can
hold JPMorgan responsible for one of them. I they and the entire banking
system were being held responsible for all of them and that affects our
growth, employment and our wages.

One of those is we had a 30% drop in real estate prices. I don`t think you
can hold the banks responsible for that. That precipitated a run on the
banks. If you had 20% down payments with a 30% drop in the real estate
prices, you still would have had a run on the banks, which did enormous
damage to our economy, and then there were pour lending practices as well.

I personally don`t think that the poor lending practices are really what
created the crises here. It is a 30% drop in real estate and the run on
the banks, but when we hold the banks responsible for all of that, whether
it is on a witch hunt or holding them publicly, even if the numbers are
low, they will rein in their horns. That fed has printed several trillion
dollars of liquidity -- idle, unused and we get slow growth, unemployment
and lousy wages.

HAYES: OK. Stop. Yes, please, Alexis.

GOLDSTEIN: But, we can`t say that the 30% drop in prices of homes is not
because of the banks when the banks were not giving out credits or loans.
They were inflating the market. They were producing the securitization,
which seems that constantly needed to be fed --

HAYES: Right.

GOLDSTEIN: -- And, went out to homes and communities of color and put
downties on the heads of black American homeowners in order to make them
take out second leans on home that is owned out right. This dropping
mortgages in mortgage price have basically came about because bolster
created a bubble that we are now basically creating again because we aren`t
bringing people to account. We aren`t bringing up the banks. We aren`t
making them small enough to fail and we`re just going to keep inflating
until we actually make these banks manageable.

HAYES: So, here`s my question. When RAJ said this is in some ways the
system working out the legal accountabilities, sort of working like what
Alexis do you think would work if this isn`t it? If fines of these kinds
are not getting the job done --

GOLDSTEIN: We need criminal charges for Chase. When you hosted up, Chris,
you had a woman on named Karen Hose. She wrote a book called Liquidated.
The culture of Wall Street is that "You get screwed. It`s your fault
because you weren`t smart enough. And, you should have done your home work
and you should have paid attention."

Wall Street is sharp. They want to rip your face off. The only thing that
is going to change the equation of whether or not this is the cost of doing
business and you define greater than the profits I`m going to make is the
factor of jail time. Until we see people prosecuted and thrown behind
bars, I don`t think we`re going to agree with anything.

HAYES: Quickly, Ed.

CONARD: I think if you hold the banks responsible for that, they won`t
rein in their horns. They will not lend the money and we are going to get
a high unemployment and slow growth as a result.

HAYES: High unemployment and slow growth.

GOLDSTEIN: Well, given how many crises of the banking industry has caused,
I am not sure that is the worst thing in the world.

HAYES: Former Bain Capital partner, Ed Conard, Raj Date from Fenway Summer
and Alexis Goldstein from the other 98%, thank you all. That is "All In"
for this evening. The "Rachel Maddow" Show starts right now. Good
evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thank you very much, my


Copyright 2013 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>