PoliticsNation, Wednesday, March 12th, 2014

March 12, 2014

Guests: Emanuel Cleaver, Jonathan Capehart, Abby Huntsman, Faith Jenkins,
Ken Padowitz

REVEREND AL SHARPTON, MSNBC ANCHOR: Good evening, Ed. And thanks to you
for tuning in.

Tonight`s lead, the GOP`s poor logic. Congressman Paul Ryan has been
trying to pass himself off as the Republican expert on solving poverty.
But today, he made an offensive new claim saying the real problem is an
inner city culture of not working.


tailspin of culture in our inner cities in particular of men not working
and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the
value and the culture of work. So there is a real culture problem here
that has to be dealt with.


SHARPTON; Inner city men not working. I mean, who do you think he is
talking about? I have a news flash for the congressman. People living in
poverty in inner cities and rural areas everywhere want jobs. They want
jobs with decent wages. But by saying it`s a cultural problem, Ryan is
giving the Republicans an excuse to avoid helping those who are struggling.
Almost two million workers have been cut off from unemployment benefits
since Republicans let them expire in December. That`s not a bogus cultural
problem, it`s real. But Republicans just pretend those people don`t exist.
And Democrats are calling them out for it.

Today, House Democrats introduced what is known as a discharge petition,
trying to force Republicans to hold a vote on extending jobless benefits.


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: Think of this number, two
million. Two million people cut off from unemployment insurance.

REP. JOSEPH CROWLEY (D), NEW YORK: Two hundred thousand returning veterans
who are trying to ease their way back into the workforce.

REP. TERRI SEWELL (D), ALABAMA: Last month a constituent wrote I search
for work all I can. And now, I have no gas money to continue my search.

PELOSI: Do the right thing, Mr. Speaker. Give us a vote.


SHARPTON; And while House Democrats were pushing for those benefits,
President Obama also is fighting for change. This week, he is ordering the
labor department to change the requirements for overtime pay, stop
employers from abusing overtime rules and requiring overtime pay for
millions of workers. And the president`s also pushing to raise the minimum


extra boost is not only good for them and their families, it is also good
for the entire economy. And keep in mind that these days in retail sales,
fast food and a lot of different occupations, the minimum wage is not just
going to teenagers. The average age of someone getting minimum wage is 35.
And a lot of them have family obligations.


SHARPTON; Giving a life line to the unemployed, making sure people are
paid a fair wage, that`s how you address poverty in America. Congressman
Ryan needs to stop blaming poverty on, quote, "inner city culture` and
start talking about real solutions.

Joining me now Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, Democrat of Missouri and
MSNBC`s Karen Finney.

Thank you both for being here.

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D), MISSOURI: Good to be with you, Reverend.


SHARPTON; Congressman, Paul Ryan says there is a culture of men not
working in inner cities. He even said generations not thinking about
working. What is your reaction?

CLEAVER: Well, I`m so disappointed in chairman Ryan. And I`m saying this
very, very seriously. It is my hope that he really doesn`t mean what he
said. It is my hope that he just doesn`t know people in the inner city.

You and I grew up in the central city. I grew up extremely poor in one
point in my childhood. But I never heard anybody say this is fun and I am
enjoying this. Let`s try to see how we can get other people to join us.
Now, most people who are in poverty are struggling every day to get out.
And I think it is an insult for those people to hear what chairman Ryan

That the other thing is that, and you mentioned it earlier, the 200,000
people who are not receiving unemployment insurance who were in Iraq or
Afghanistan, they are not a part of some kind inner city culture. And they
are men and women who, in many, who put their lives on the line, and they
come home, they are out of a job and frankly, they are out of luck because
this Congress is not trying in any kind of small way to come to their aid.

SHARPTON; You know, Karen, the Congressman Ryan also criticized the safety
net. Listen to this.


RYAN: Right now, we have sort of a poverty management system, in many ways
to the benefit of the managers. And so, when you question the status quo
of the government`s poverty in this warm poverty, you get all the
criticisms from the adherents of the status quo who just don`t want to see
a change.


SHARPTON; And that poverty program are not managing things. I mean, they
are making a difference. One study found that poverty rate was 26 percent
in 1967. The safety net has helped that fall to about 16 percent fell by
2012. Congressman Ryan thinks people who want to protect the safety net
are just poverty managers, Karen.

FINNEY: Yes. well, I mean, look, on the one hand, what is so insulting
about what congressman Ryan said is, when was the last time he spent time
in the inner city? And if he is trying to say something with the dog
whistle, he should just come out and say it and define it. Because I think
we all kind of know what he really is trying to say and it is very

And you know, secondly, he doesn`t have any data to back up what he is
saying. I mean, if you look at the facts, if you look at, for example, the
earned income tax credit, right, how successful that program works, the
snap program, how that program has been very successful in helping to move
families as they have been in trouble in the last couple of years and help
them sort of either get back to the middle class, get back on their feet.
So, he is not even -- you know, I suppose he thinks that we are all too
stupid to understand the numbers. Because remember, when he was trying to
explain his budget, he said it was too complicated. So, maybe he thinks we
just won`t understand the numbers. But I would challenge him to give us
some data points, give us real facts. Don`t just hurl those kinds of dog
whistle themes out there without any real data.

SHARPTON; We are talking about dog whistles and not understanding him.
Let me show how much I understand him. I want to play another part of the
congressman`s interview where he mentions a man named Charles Murray,
Congressman. He says -- take a listen to this.


RYAN: A boy has to see a man working, doesn`t he?


RYAN: OK. And so that`s the tailspin or spiral that we`re looking at in
our communities. You know, your buddy Charles Murray or Bob at Harvard
have written books on this.


SHARPTON; Now, Charles Murray, his site says one of his sources and talks
about his written books is the author of the book "the Bell Curve" which
argues blacks are less intelligent than whites. And he once wrote the
statement, a lot of poor people are born lazy, it is almost certainly true.
Now, this is the kind of expert, Congressman Cleaver, that Congressman Ryan
is relying on?

CLEAVER: That is the part that is so hurtful to many of us and probably to
many of your viewers. Charles Murray is a pseudo-scientist who has come up
with all kinds of studies that are baseless and proven to be baseless.
They essentially says that African-Americans are subhuman. And if you
believe that and if you believe that and if you push that --

SHARPTON; And genetically less intelligent.

CLEAVER: Genetically, less intelligent and less moral. He goes on to say.
And when Chairman Ryan, rather he is a smart man, in saying that I hope he
understands that he is giving fatter (ph), he is the feeding people out
there who would love to lap that up and then use that to justify their
attitude and continue to push people down who are trying to get up.

SHARPTON; Karen, while Democrats are working to make economic system more
fair, Republicans are focused on getting rid of the president. Listen to
what one Republican congressman is saying.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got three years to get this guy out, hopefully he
-- well, let me put it this way, I think he probably has been engaged in
these unconstitutional approaches that may make his own ability to stay in


SHARPTON; So the president is unconstitutional. We need to get him out.
The problem with poverty is not that we won`t pass a jobs bill or build
infrastructure or that we won`t deal with things like programs that have
helped lift people of all races and all communities. The problem is inner
city culture and that they are lazy. Yet, we give aid to other people
around the country. That is fine. I mean, this is absolutely horrible,

FINNEY: It really is. And, you know, Rev., I`ll tell you. I want to
agree with Congressman Cleaver in the belief that perhaps Congressman Ryan
doesn`t understand the depth of how hurtful and how just despicable,
frankly for him to cite that gentleman in his remarks and make those
comments are.

But I have to tell you, Reverend, it appears to me that there is a craven
political goal going on here. That message is not for people of color,
that is not for the 47 percent, that is not for the, you know, what he
would consider the takers. That message is designed for a particular
audience. And I think he is trying to sound like he really cares about
poverty and cares about these issues and have studied the issues. But
instead, as the congressman pointed out, he is only helping to reinforce
some of the most destructive stereotypes that this country has confronted
in the last 200 years.

SHARPTON; Well, whether the message was intended for some of us or not, I
got it and I`m going to talk about it.

Congressman Emanuel Cleaver and Karen Finney, thank you both for your time

And be sure to watch "Disrupt "with Karen Finney weekends at 4:00 p.m.
right here on MSNBC.

Coming up, healthcare.gov gets a huge boost after President Obama`s epic
web show appearance. But now, they are slamming the appearance. Someone
is even saying Lincoln would not have done it.

Plus, is the CIA covering up torture secrets from the Bush/Cheney White
House? The controversies growing debate.

And a man shot to death in a Florida movie theater allegedly over popcorn.
Tonight, new surveillance video played in court and why it could be the
next stand your ground test.

Stay with us.


SHARPTON; Breaking news, Chinese officials have released satellite photos
of what they call large floating objects in one of the areas where search
teams are looking for Malaysia air flight 370. This is one of the photos
taken on Sunday. The Chinese officials are not saying whether they believe
it is debris or whether they think it has anything to do with the missing
plane. And NBC News cannot confirm what if anything the photos show. The
plane disappeared early Saturday with 239 people on board. We will bring
more information on this as it becomes available.



OBAMA: I can say without exception or equivocation that the United States
will not torture.



SHARPTON; That was President Obama on the second full day of his
presidency signing an executive order to ban the so-called enhanced
interrogation techniques of the Bush administration. That program was kept
a secret until 2006 when President George W. Bush defended the CIA`s method
to the American public.


the specific methods used. I think you understand why. If I did it would
help terrorists learn how to resist questioning and to keep information
from us that we need to prevent new attacks on our country.


SHARPTON; For the last five years Senate Democrats have been investigating
the torture program, despite what appears to be a pattern of stone walling
from the CIA. That stone walling has now exploded into puppetry when
Senator Dianne Feinstein accusing the CIA of illegally searching staff
computers to impede their investigation. Why? Because she says they are
finding so far shows the CIA has something to hide.


SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: The resulting staff report was
chilling. The interrogations and the conditions of confinement at the CIA
detention sites were far different and far more harsh than the way the CIA
had described them to us.


SHARPTON; The American people still don`t know the full story of what was
done in our name during the darkest days of the Bush administration.
Today, President Obama says it`s time for the senate report to come out and
reveal the truth.


OBAMA: I am absolutely committed to declassifying that report as soon as
the report is completed. In fact, I would urge them to go ahead and
complete the report, send it to us. We will declassify those findings so
that the American people can understand what happened in the past and help
guide us as we move forward.


SHARPTON; Joining me now is MSNBC.com executive editor Richard Wolffe.

Thanks for being here tonight, Richard.


SHARPTON; You know, Richard, at a "New York Times" editorial today calls
this quote "CIA torture cover-up." Is the agency trying to hide what it
did during the Bush administration?

WOLFFE: Of course, it is. That has always been the deal. And in fact,
that is well understood inside the White House. You know, they made the
decision early on that he was a president who came in. He wanted to clear
house. He wanted to say this will not continue. And immediately, after
declassifying what they call the torture memos, he was faced with a really
critical decision that many presidents face which is can I afford to be at
war with the intelligence community that is working for me and trying to
protect other intelligence failures and work against terrorist attacks?

He took the decision right then that he did not want to be at war with the
CIA and he scaled things back. Clearly the CIA, certain people in the CIA
took that as a green light to go and obstruct what was a perfectly
legitimate investigation by people who also have very high, the highest
possible security clearances, that the Senate intelligence committee
staffers. So, this wasn`t a bunch of outsiders coming in. These were
trusted partners in Congress. And I think you are hearing now president
saying, OK, this has gone too far.

SHARPTON; Now, back in 2007 you asked President Bush a simple question at
a press conference. I want the audience to see this. Watch.

WOLFFE: Thank you.


WOLFFE: What is your definition of the word torture?

BUSH: Of what?

WOLFFE: The word "torture," what is you r definition?

BUSH: It is defined in U.S. law, and we don`t torture.

WOLFFE: Can you give the version of it, sir?

BUSH: No. Whatever the law says.


SHARPTON; I mean, this is you asking President Bush and he clearly would
not give a clear definition, whatever the law says. What is that supposed
to mean.

WOLFFE: I tell you. He wasn`t happy about that, by the way. We all knew
this was going on. And the question was, were they just playing legal
games and trying to redefine torture? It was enhanced interrogation. It
was just harsh treatment of these detainees. It wasn`t actually torture.
And I understand there are concerns inside the administration of people who
said we were just following orders. But of course, there is a long history
of people saying we were just following orders. And it doesn`t stack up in
international crimes courts and certainly not in the law of war as lawyers
like to put it.

So, I was trying to ask him as someone who communicates, as someone who is
a politician, as someone who has to speak to regular people and as someone
who believed he was a moral person at his heart, what torture meant, he
knew in answering that question, there would be legal jeopardy for each and
every person who followed his own administration`s orders.

SHARPTON; Now, just months after President Obama banned the harsh
interrogation techniques, former vice president Dick Cheney defended them.
Watch this, Richard.


a strong proponent of our enhanced interrogation program. The
interrogations were used on hardened terrorists after every efforts have
failed. They were legal, essential, justified, successful and right thing
to do.


SHARPTON; Now, what is interesting, Richard, is that people who have read
the Senate`s classified report on the interrogation program say it is a,
quote, "withering indictment of the program" and it shows that, quote, "CIA
officials misled Congress, the White House and the public." They misled
the American public. Shouldn`t the American people know what is in the
report, Richard?

WOLFFE: They should know what is in this report and they should be
outraged that people who are mentioned in the report are trying to say that
Senate staffers are guilty of crimes. I mean, this has become extreme
twisted. We used to say in Washington that the best press operation came
out of the most secret place, as supposedly secret place, which was the CIA
they are adept at spinning. They are adept of fighting these interagency
turf battles and in this case, using legal mechanisms to try and chill
this. It is time they came out. It is time we knew what they thought the
definition of torture was one they actually did in their name.

SHARPTON; Richard Wolffe, thanks for your time tonight.

WOLFFE: Thank you.

SHARPTON; Still ahead, new focus tonight on that horrific movie theater
shooting in Florida.

Plus, Scott Walker is the next lucky governor to win a spot in the politics
nations got you. And some right wingers show us they really can`t take a
joke. Stay with us.


SHARPTON; Wisconsin governor Scott Walker is a rising star in the GOP.
And he has got one thing on his mind, voter I.D. He signed a strict voter
I.D. requirement into law in 2011. And he has been singing its praises
ever since.


GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: Last year voter I.D., unfortunately, we
didn`t have it before the November election but we will have it in the


SHARPTON; So, why is it so important to have a voter I.D. law, Governor?


WALKER: We have to do more to protect the integrity of the vote.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Protects the integrity for an open, fair, and honest


SHARPTON; The integrity of an election is a worthy goal. But the rampant
voter fraud, the problem voter I.D. lost claim to some, just doesn`t exist.
A voting expert in Wisconsin testified that there is just one, one, as in
less than two, voter fraud cases for every 283,000 votes cast in that state
since 2008. That`s a rate of 0.00035 percent. But that hasn`t stopped the
governor from trying and trying and trying. The state Supreme Court is
expected to rule on Walker`s proposed law soon.

But Scott Walker doesn`t care. Yesterday he said he is willing to call a
special legislative session if the Supreme Court strikes the law down. He
wants the law in place, quote, "before the next election."

I wonder why Governor Walker is insisting this law be in place before the
next election. Maybe it`s because Governor Walker will be on the ballot
and a voter I.D. law will likely depress Democratic voter turnout.

Did governor Walker think we would not notice the real reason he is so
desperate to get this law in the books? Nice try but we got you.


SHARPTON: The day after the right wing isn`t laughing along with the rest
of the country. By now you have probably seen this video. In fact, over
11 million people have seen it. President Obama`s epic appearance on the
comedy web show, with "Hangover" star Zach Galifianakis. He was having
fun, cracking jokes and raising awareness about ObamaCare. The result
traffic to Healthcare.gov shot up over 40 percent. In just one day 54,000
referrals came directly from the comedy site. And yet, look how some on
the right reacted.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: The interview was a farce and some
believe it was demeaning.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Some argue it is inappropriate for the President
of the United States to be advertising a law.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The whole thing is a big mock up. I think it is
pretty tragic.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: A lot of people, you know, say they think it is

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Perhaps you should wait until the country is in
better shape before you engage in a manufactured orgy of hipster
awkwardness. This was below the office of President of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Things like this, it diminishes not just him but
the office itself.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Of all the things going on in the world,
I`m wondering is there any level of connectedness here.

O`REILLY: Believes the President is a light weight, will a comedy
video counter that?


SHARPTON: Below the office? Demeaning? Why? Because he went on a
comedy show? I wonder what they would say about this.


UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh, no. I don`t think we can get Ms. Nixon to
stand still for sock it to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Sock it to me?



SHARPTON: Wait a minute. Was that Richard Nixon on the laughing
sketch comedy show just two months before winning an election?


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Sock it to me?


SHARPTON: Yes it was. And he wasn`t alone. Here is President
Eisenhower on the Colgate comedy hour and President Reagan on the Bob Hope
80th birthday special. Oh, and President George W. Bush on the game show
deal or no deal. They know exactly how to respond to right wing critics.


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Sock it to me?


SHARPTON: Yes, sock it to anyone on the right who doesn`t get the

Joining me now, Jonathan Capehart and Abby Huntsman, thank you both
for being here.



SHARPTON: Jonathan, attacking the president for this appearance, I
mean, what do you make of that?

CAPEHART: It is ridiculous. I mean, it is predictable, unfortunately
very predictable to have people on the right citing the president for
demeaning the Oval Office, demeaning the presidency, downgrading it, fill
in the blank. Whatever the president does they don`t like it, even if, as
you just showed, Republican presidents doing the same thing. And can we
just make one point here, when President Nixon went on "Laugh In" that show
"Laugh In" for that time was a racy show.

SHARPTON: Oh, very.

CAPEHART: Controversial show. And here you have President Obama --

SHARPTON: Very, very controversial. I mean, it was before my time
but I take your word for it.

CAPEHART: You get my point. And here what I thought was so brilliant
about what the President and Zach Galifianakis did is that they use comedy


CAPEHART: -- which is proven. I mean, this is why Jon Stewart and
Stephen Colbert is successful, use comedy to pull in young people to impart
information that they need to know.

SHARPTON: Wow! The numbers speak for themselves. What do you think,

HUNTSMAN: Well, I was watching FOX last night, I`m sorry MSNBC but I
was watching O`Reilly when he was saying that President Lincoln never would
have done something.

SHARPTON: I wanted to ask you about that. He brought in Lincoln.
And you`d have to see this to believe it. Let me show it to everybody that
was not doing what you did, Abby.

CAPEHART: Researching, it is called.


O`REILLY: All I can tell you is Abe Lincoln would not have done it.
There comes a point when serious times call for serious action. We are a
divided nation which talking points believes is in decline.


SHARPTON: Abe Lincoln would not have done it. I mean, first of all,
how does he know? Is this for real?

HUNTSMAN: We also live in a world with TVs where men don`t walk
around with top hats on and women can vote. So, when I heard that I
thought, you know, what? There are folks that feel this diminishes the
presidency. That is fair criticism and everyone views this differently.
But I thought that weakened his argument because Lincoln was known as a
funny guy, he was known to have sense of humor, and also someone that
reached out to people. So, who knows if Lincoln would have done this or
not. But I think -- I found it hilarious, I thought it was funny. Maybe
it is a generational thing. And this is where Obama shines. He knows this
hits the population that they need to hit for ObamaCare.

SHARPTON: But let me ask you this, Jonathan. When you talk about
beneath the office, 2004 which I remember well, President George W. Bush
went to the White House correspondence dinner and joked about not finding
weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Listen to this.


FMR. PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH (R), UNITED STATES: Those weapons of mass
destruction got to be somewhere. Nope, no weapons over there.


SHARPTON: Now, the point here is they are attacking President Obama
for doing something beneath the office. But here is a president, sitting
president, mocking weapons of mass destruction. I mean, what kind of
hypocrisy are we talking about here?

CAPEHART: I was there at that White House correspondence dinner. And
yes, it was a funny joke, but it was a shocking joke because of weapons of
mass destruction the president sent men and women to die in a war over
something thousands of men, women went to Iraq, dying in a war over
something that was not there. And so for a president to joke about
something like that? That is beneath the office of the president.

SHARPTON: The point Abby is that none of these right wingers came out
and attacked President Bush for that?

HUNTSMAN: That`s right. And I think we have to recognize that we
live in a very different world. And there are so many different factions
of media. As we know, the President can`t just go on the Sunday morning
talk shows.

CAPEHART: Exactly.

HUNTSMAN: There are a number of audiences. And I think if you look
at the effect of this, there were I think six-and-a-half million viewers
that watched this video. As you said, it was the number one source for
referrals for the website for a brief period of time.


HUNTSMAN: The President probably should have done this four or five
months ago when it really was in -- this is a huge part of the, you know,
levels on --

CAPEHART: But he needs the young people to sign up before March 31st
in order for the Affordable Care Act to actually work.

SHARPTON: For everybody.

CAPEHART: For everyone, right?

SHARPTON: Abby, should Republicans be doing more comedy shows? More
shows that are geared towards young people?

HUNTSMAN: Well, we saw Boehner did Leno a couple of weeks ago. I
think McCain is doing Letterman sometime this week. So, I think it is all
positive for Republicans to do things like this because it makes them
personable. It shows people that they can be funny, that they don`t take
themselves too seriously. Most importantly, it appeals to the younger
generation which the Republican Party desperately needs. So, I will say,
yes, instead of criticizing the President on someone like this, there are
plenty of areas to criticize the President on today, take note of this and
think maybe we should be doing more things like this, maybe we should
appear more fun as a party.

SHARPTON: Well, you know, Randy Weber, GOP congressman sent out this
tweet says, instead of wasting time with parody interview he should be
focusing on finding answers regarding Benghazi -- Jonathan.

CAPEHART: I can`t even dignify that tweet with any kind of response.
I mean, Benghazi, ObamaCare, IRS, fill in the blank scandal that those on
the far right want to target the President with, they will use any excuse
to bring it up every time. Look, as Abby just talked about presidents and
politicians these days cannot rely on the big three networks and can`t rely
on all of us in cable television. They need to reach a population that
doesn`t rely on those media outlets to get their information. They get
information from tablets and smart phones and, you know, specific websites
that cater to their views and their needs. And also to personalities who
aren`t housed in some of these bigger institutions.

HUNTSMAN: Like Galifianakis. Reverend, when are you going on
"Between Two Ferns"?


SHARPTON: I have done them all.

HUNTSMAN: And you`re great.

SHARPTON: In fact, I don`t watch FOX or Letterman. I watch Fallon.
I`m sorry, Abby. He fits my demographics. Jonathan Capehart and Abby
Huntsman, thank you for your time tonight.

CAPEHART: Thanks, Reverend.

SHARPTON: And he sure to catch Abby on "THE CYCLE" weekdays at 3:00
p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.

Coming up, as Arizona Governor Jan Brewer has been in the center of
some controversy, today a big announcement.

But first, a fatal shooting in Florida over text messages and a box of
popcorn could be the next battle in the fight over stand your ground. What
happened in court today? That`s next.


SHARPTON: There`s new attention in a Florida case that could be the
latest battle in the fight over stand your ground. Today a Florida judge
ruled that all evidence can be made public in the case of Curtis Reeves, a
retired police captain who fatally shot a fellow movie goer earlier this
year. The argument started over a text message that the victim Chad Oulson
was sending to his three-year-old daughter. And then the unthinkable


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Dozens of Pasco deputies swarm the Grove 16 movie
theater in Wesley Chapel this afternoon as someone opened fire in one of
the theaters.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Witnesses say 71-year-old Reeves shot Oulson in the
chest. Oulson`s wife was wounded trying to block the gunshot with her
hand. Reeves was angry over Oulson`s texting.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: And then bang, shot. He staggered two seats over,
fell on my son and I.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The sheriff says that Reeves had no reason to

SHERIFF CHRIS NOCCO, PASCO COUNTY: Over a cell phone, over somebody
texting and take their life. It is ridiculous.


SHARPTON: During pretrial hearing this dramatic surveillance video
of the shooting emerged. The video appeared to show Oulson throw popcorn
at Reeves and then Reeves takes out his gun and fired it killing Oulson.
The altercation and the shooting take place in just a matter of moments.
But Reeves says, he acted out of fear for his life.


CURTIS REEVES, CHAD OULSON`S SHOOTER: If I had to do it over again
it would never happen. Would have moved. But you don`t get do overs.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: So what made you shoot him?

REEVES: Well, I guess, it scared the hell out of me. I thought the
guy was fixing to beat the (bleep) out of me. I don`t know how else to say


SHARPTON: So, was itself defense? And will this new trial put stand
your ground in the spot light once again?

Joining me now is former prosecutor and MSNBC legal analyst Faith
Jenkins and criminal defense lawyer Ken Padowitz. Thank you both for being



SHARPTON: Ken, does the surveillance video help or hurt Mr. Reeves

PADOWITZ: Oh, it hurts Mr. Reeves case in a really bad way. I mean,
you can`t say that it is reasonable to be in fear of butter popcorn. It
just doesn`t wash. No one is going to buy that. And the video is not
going to helpful to the defense. It is going to be very, very damaging.
And the video evidence is probably some of the best evidence that the
prosecution can use in any trial. And they`re going to use it in this
case. And they`re going to drive home the point to this jury that he shot
because he was angry, because he was upset that there was texting going on
in this movie theater. And that is not OK. That is against the law. This
man died because of it and the victim doesn`t get a do over. Forget the
defendant. The victim doesn`t get a second chance here. So, this is going
to be a very problematic for this defendant.

SHARPTON: Now, you know, Faith, the victim`s wife was next to him
during the shooting. She said she never would have expected this. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Nicole, is there any reason why the man who shot
your husband would have felt threatened in any way?

NICOLE OULSON, CHAD OULSON`S WIFE: Absolutely not. Not in the least.
I never expected it. Never could have imagined it. I mean, it was a
couple of words, no threats, no harm, no nothing.


SHARPTON: And during a bail hearing, another witness testified that
Mr. Reeves own wife thought he had overreacted. The "New York Times"
reports, quote, "Mr. Reeves` wife, Vivian, told him that was no cause to
shoot anyone." Mr. Reeves using an expletive, then told her to shut her
mouth and said, "Don`t say another word."

JENKINS: Right. And the video really speaks for itself. I mean, you
watch it. I mean, this is a prosecutor`s dream when we have cases that go
to trial. In most cases crimes are not caught on video. This is one where
it is. And you can watch it and make a determination for yourself. And
when you look at the ladies who spoke about the threat how there was no
threat, there was no need to pull out a gun. And Mr. Reeves is a former
police officer. So, he knows how to assess a threatening situation. He
has formal and professional training on dealing with threats, on dealing
with crimes. And so, for him in this situation to decide in that moment
based on what we saw in the video that it was OK to pull out a gun and
shoot someone, that`s not real fear. That is manufactured fear now to try
to garner up a self-defense claim.

SHARPTON: Now, you know, Ken, there was also a video of Reeves in the
theater prior to the shooting. And he doesn`t seem erratic or angry. Here
is via a local news package. Take a listen.


Minutes before the shooting Reeves is seen walking out of the movie
theater with what appears to be a gun in his right pocket, it also shows
something else, Reeves state of mind.

Look at his demeanor. His reactions. He doesn`t look upset. He
doesn`t look angry. In fact, right there, he is smiling.


SHARPTON: What is that do to his case, Ken?

PADOWITZ: Well, I think it shows Reverend, that you have somebody who
is in control. He is in a sense reasonable. He is going to make a
complaint to the movie theater, you know, people. And then he comes back
down and he is upset or insulted by the fact that the man in front of him
won`t stop doing what he wants him to stop doing. And so there is where
the anger appears when you pull out a gun to shoot somebody because they
threw popcorn at you? I mean, it is going to be a big problem in defending
the shooter in this case. And if I was defending him I would be talking to
him seriously about taking a plea and not going to trial. Because I think
he has a serious problem with a jury and a trial with this type of video

SHARPTON: Faith, the attorney for the victim`s family says that stand
your ground should not apply to this case.

JENKINS: Right. But now, look at what Florida has done withstand
your ground law and with self-defense in general. It is a part of the jury
instructions in a case. So, even if you don`t request a stand your ground
hearing at the beginning of a trial, if you assert self defense, you
actually get that charge in front of the jury the jurors are going to be
told that this person did not have a duty to retreat.

SHARPTON: Yes, so either way it comes.

JENKINS: Either way it comes in, and it`s going to be explained to
the jury in that manner.

SHARPTON: Now, Ken, today Reeves waived his right to a speedy trial.
What does that mean and how important is that to the case?

PADOWITZ: That is actually very common practice here in Florida. You
have a right to speedy trial. And the first time the case comes up the
defendant can waive the right and allow his attorney to properly
investigate the case, look at all the discovery, take depositions and so
forth. So it is actually a very common practice for defense attorneys and
have defendants to waive that speedy trial and continue the case so that
they can prepare for a trial down the road. In a serious case like this
you need a lot of preparation.

SHARPTON: Faith Jenkins and Ken Padowitz, thank you both for your
time this evening.

JENKINS: Thank you.

SHARPTON: Ahead, Arizona Governor Jan Brewer has been no stranger to
controversy. Today a big announcement.

Also, a stunning story about injustice and a man walking free after 30
years on death row.


SHARPTON: Arizona Governor Jan Brewer announced she is retiring at
the end of this term. Arizona governors are limited to two terms. But
there was talk she would challenge that. In her five years in office she
has been no stranger to controversy. In 2010 national protests erupted
after she signed the strictest anti-immigration law in the country. But in
the governor`s debate that same year she had an epic brain freeze in her
opening statement.


GOV. JAN BREWER (R), ARIZONA: We have cut the budget. We have
balanced the budget and we are moving forward. We have done everything
that we could possibly do.


We have did what was right for Arizona.


SHARPTON: From there it was this image that had the country talking,
pointing at President Obama after he landed in Arizona in 2012. But last
summer she was one of a few Republican governors who embraced the Medicaid
expansion as part of ObamaCare. And weeks ago, Brewer was under fire to
veto a bill that would have made discrimination against gays legal. She
eventually did the right thing vetoing the bill. So, it has been an
interesting roller coaster for Governor Jan Brewer, many ups and downs. We
do wish her the best in her private life.


SHARPTON: Finally tonight, a story for all of those who say there is
no need to reform our criminal justice system. This is a photo of a
Louisiana man named Glen Ford back in 1983. After he was arrested for
robbing and killing a man inside of a jewelry store. And this is a photo
of Glen Ford taken yesterday when he finally walked free after spending 30
years on death row for a crime he didn`t commit. Ford always said he had
nothing to do with the murder but an all-white jury still found him guilty.
Yesterday a judge said new evidence showed he was innocent. Ford was
released after spending nearly half his life behind bars.


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I can`t go back and do anything I should have been
doing when I was like 35, 48, stuff like that. My son when I left he is
baby, now they are grown men with babies.


SHARPTON: Glen Ford didn`t get to see his baby sons grow up to be
men because of a miscarriage of justice. And he is not alone. Just
through DNA testing alone 245 people in 36 states have been exonerated and
set free in the years since 2000. On average they were just 27 years old
when wrongfully convicted and they served an average of 13 years in prison
for crimes they didn`t commit. Like Glen Ford, they lost their freedom.
We must find out why and make sure these tragedies aren`t repeated.

Yes, when something criminal is done, people must be held
accountable, but we can`t, without evidence and scapegoating put the wrong
people away. We not only do them wrong, we do wrong to the victims and the
victims` families that we claim we give justice to. We cannot compound
wrong. We must solve wrong and we can`t do it by the system being wrong

Thanks for watching. I`m Al Sharpton. "HARDBALL" starts right now.


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