IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

The Ed Show for Thursday, July 10th, 2014

Read the transcript to the Thursday Show

July 10, 2014

Guest: Kimberle Crenshaw, Steven Horsford, Freddie Haynes III, Dinesh
D`Souza, Zerlina Maxwell, Eric Boehlert, Jane Kleeb

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Americans, welcome the
Ed Show, all the way live from New York. I`m Michael Eric Dyson in for Ed
Schultz. Let`s get to work.


CLIVEN BUNDY, NEVADA RANCHER: And let me talk about Spanish people.

Get your butts turned around and point your guns at the enemy.

Don`t tell they don`t have better family structures than most of us
fight (ph).

The enemy is the culture that`s illegally coming in here. Not we the

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Immigrants are more fertile and they love

GOV. RICK PERRY, (R) TEXAS: There is also a potentially deadly
outcome of having this influx of illegal...

SARAH PALIN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Deport them, you have to...

PERRY: It has to do with diseases that they`re bringing with them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is the disaster that is the direct consequence
of President Obama`s lawlessness.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER, (R-OH), HOUSE SPEAKER: He`s been president for
five-and-a-half years. When`s he going to take responsibility for

PERRY: Secure this border, Mr. President.


DYSON: Not many Americans take Texas Gov. Rick Perry seriously. The
homophobic Governor has provided America with lots of laughable garbage
over the years. This time, his Anti-Obama lies are reaching a whole new
level with the immigration crisis.

Perry recently cooked up a conspiracy theory in which he said
President Obama planned the current immigration mess. Earlier today Perry
was pressed on his wild idea.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you really honestly believe as you said in
that interview last month that the administration might be in on this
somehow? I mean your suggesting there`s some kind of conspiracy here.

PERRY: No. What I`m suggesting is that this administration and their
words and their actions or the lack there of are part of the problem. I
think you`re putting the words of conspiracy in my mouth which I did not

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, you actually did say word, "I hate to be
conspiratorial, but I mean how do move that many people from Central
America ..."

PERRY: And I hate to be conspiratorial. I hate to be conspiratorial.
I did not say I was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "How can you move that many people from Central
America across Mexico, and then into the United States without there being
a fairly coordinated effort."

PERRY: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just asking Governor because...

PERRY: And there is -- I totally understand.


DYSON: Boards (ph) of horrible thing when your words come to bite you
right back where you sit. Rick Perry`s conspiracy theory proves he cares
about one thing, trashing President Obama. On Wednesday President Obama
meet with Governor Perry in Texas, Dallas to be exact.

Both have sited at a round table with local leaders about the current
crisis. After the event President Obama came out and called the meeting
constructive. Meanwhile Rick Perry run over to Shawn Hannity and slammed
the President.

Perry said President Obama is responsible for the immigration crisis.


said the message to come? Is he responsible?

PERRY: Well, I think in the -- I mean, the new ounces of the policies
when it`s catch and release, when it`s -- that if you`re from another
country outside of Mexico then you`re going to be treated differently and
you can stay here for up to two years. Of course those are messages that
very quickly gets transported back to Central American countries.


DYSON: Governor, the only problem is the policy, Perry was talking
about was signed by George W. Bush in 2008. Next, Perry had the nerve to
compare the President`s handling of the immigration crisis to Hurricane


PERRY: I think about the criticism that George W. Bush received when
he didn`t go to New Orleans. Katrina, this is no different.

HANNITY: Did you ask him?

PERRY: Absolutely. When -- the first thing I asked him when I got
into Air Force One, I said, "Mr. President", I said, "I really want you to
come and see this because," I said, "this is important for you to absorb."

HANNITY: Do you think he`s making a mistake by not coming and he
talked about, you know, well, I sent this guy Jay (ph) whatever his name
down six times Jay Johnson (ph).

PERRY: Yeah. Well, I`m pretty sure that if George Bush and said,
"Well, I sent my female director down multiple times", that he would still
been criticized greatly because you need to go, that`s what governors do,
that`s what president do.


DYSON: Dude, I wrote a book on Hurricane Katrina, this ain`t to no
Hurricane Katrina. President Obama made it clear he`s not interested in a
photo up. As far as the Katrina comparison, Hurricane Katrina was the
costliest natural disaster in the history of the United States. Over 1,800
people lost their lives.

To compare the border crisis to Katrina is a stretch to say the least.
Meanwhile, the scene playing out near the border could get dangerous. We
all saw this last week in Murrieta, California, an angry mob stopped busses
full of immigrants headed for processing. This scene is part of the larger
anti-government movement started by freeloading racist rancher Cliven


BUNDY: I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro.


DYSON: Just this week, Bundy said, federal agents should be pointing
out their guns at immigrants.


BUNDY: Those federal agents, they are pointing their back against the
line of Mexico, and pointing their guns at we the people on this side of
the line. That`s exactly what`s happening in the Bundy Case. Get your
butts turned around and point the guns at the enemy. The enemy is the
encroacher that`s illegally coming in here. Not we the people.


DYSON: He doesn`t know the Negro and he doesn`t know the
constitution. There`s absolutely an element of racism and fear coming from
the anti-government right on the immigration crisis. The same person who
ginned up support for Cliven Bundy is not supporting the Murrieta
protesters. On Tuesday Shawn Hannity put an activist on his show, who
claimed immigrants were spreading diseases.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not out here for some racist reason we`re
trying to protect our community. In that last load, a third of them had
scabies, we had one report of border patrol agent being tested positive for
tuberculosis. This is a health issue. Then we`ve got these poor people
who have come across the border, they`re still in the same clothes, they`re
processed and put into a facility that`s designed to handle them.


DYSON: Just last night, Hannity said, militias maybe headed to the


HANNITY: We`ve got health issues, we`ve got gang members, we`ve got
drugs crossing the border, now, we have talk of militia members maybe
coming down to do the job of federal governments not doing. Sure that`s
not something you would want happen is it?

PERRY: No, it`s not.


DYSON: The last thing we need is lawless militias on the border. You
would think Hannity would have learned his lesson last time. In April, a
gun fight was narrowly averted between federal agents and Bundy`s militia.
Two of the Bundy supporters went on to murder two police officers in Las
Vegas. They were screaming of a revolution.

One should shooter placed a revolutionary war-era Gadsden flag over
one officer`s body that read, "Don`t tread on me". Enough with the anti-
government militia talk. It`s dangerous and fueling hate and racism in
this country. Bundy, the militia, and the group of protesters in Murrieta
need to be held accountable for breaking the law, not paying taxes, and
using federal land for free is illegal.

Pointing sniper riffles at federal agents is illegal. Closing a
highway to prevent the federal government from processing immigrants is
illegal. Legal action needs to be taken against these law breakers to
prevent lawless militias from heading to the border. One could only
imagine the mess that would ensue if Cliven Bundy`s militia started
pointing their riffles at children crossing the border.

Get your cellphones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question, do conservatives need to cool their rhetoric about refugees
trying to cross our border? Text A for yes, text B for no to 67622. Or go
to our blog at I`ll bring you the results later in the show.

For more, let me bring in Congressman Steven Horsford of Nevada.
Congressman, how does the Cliven Bundy story play into the immigration
crisis we see unfolding their on the border?

REP. STEVEN HORSFORD, (D) NEVADA: Well, as you rightfully point out
Dr. Dyson, that this issue is about elected officials who unfortunately
stand by individuals like Cliven Bundy who are actually lawbreakers. And
they are not folk heroes who should be held up as some type of patriots.

And that`s why I`m implore, public officials throughout this country
to not be part of the rhetoric that is against out federal government.
These are federal officers who are trying to do their job according to the
law. And there`s a process that they`re following and elected officials
and other people should not be inciting our militia to stand against their
federal government.

DYSON: Well stated. Do you think legal actions should be taking
against Bundy and his supporters?

HORSFORD: Yes, I support Mr. Bundy as any other American who has
broken federal laws or who has refused to pay upwards of a million dollars
in federal fines and fees to the federal government to be held accountable.
And the FBI is now doing an investigation of Mr. Bundy and others. And
it`s now moved from a civil issue to a criminal one, and he should be held
accountable like anyone else who has broken federal law.

DYSON: Well, we know issue is a tinderbox, but do you think the scene
in Murrieta had anything to do with racism?

HORSFORD: You know, what is frustrating when I watched the video in
Murrieta, is again, those federal offices who were driving their bus were
taking these undocumented individual, doing their job according to federal
law to a detention center. They weren`t taking them to release them to the
public, into the community. They were taking them to a detention center.

And for people to stand in the way of federal officers, law
enforcement officials who were commissioned to do tier job, those
individuals are breaking the law and should be held accountable.

DYSON: But what about this talk that Hannity had featured last night
on his show that there are militias headed to the border. Do you think --
are you worried about that?

HORSFORD: Yeah, I`m worried anytime this armed militia are being
incited to come and take up arms against their federal government. It`s
what I saw happen I`m my district where we had some 200 armed separatist.
I don`t even give them a credit of calling them militia, because that is a
term that should be reserved for our men and women and our military.

There are arm separatist. There`s a history, they are against the
federal governments and they are trying to take stands against the federal
government, against federal law. And that`s what`s happening not just in
my district but in places across the country.

DYSON: Well, given what the President`s has state (ph), do you
support his plan to fix the border crisis?

HORSFORD: Well, I think the President`s plan is a good step. But to
be clear we have a proposal that passed the House Homeland on Security
Committee unanimously. It`s called the McCaul-Thompson bill that would
address the full needs of our border security. And I think that that`s the
proposal that the president should take action on, while also adding the
humanitarian component so that we can move these children out of detention
and into more appropriate settings where they can have their rights and due
process and ultimately, whether they`re allowed to stay here on asylum or
whether they get deported back. Under the law, those individual should be
afforded that right.

DYSON: Well, congressman, you know, obviously it appears that the
Republicans are intent more on trashing the President than facing the
border crisis. What do you think about that?

HORSFORD: We have many people here in Washington. House Republican
Speaker Boehner. It`s not that they don`t like the President`s policies
they just don`t like the President. And so, any time the President makes a
proposal they`re automatically against it. We need Congress to take action
based on what is necessary and what`s right. We as members of Congress
have a responsibility to act and it`s time for them to stop blaming the

This was a law that was passed under George Bush. Many of these
members voted for this law that they now don`t like, the president
following. And it`s time for them to come to the table, work with us,
offer some more compassionate, thoughtful, and bipartisan proposal so that
we can both address our border security needs and address the humanitarian
needs of these children who are stuck in very violent and dangerous
situations from their home countries.

DYSON: All right. Congressman Steven Horsford thanks for your time

HORSFORD: Thank you Dr. Dyson. Good to be on.

DYSON: Thank you sir. Let me bring in Columbia University of Law,
Professor Kimberle Crenshaw. You know, you are renowned law professor. Is
it setting a dangerous precedence here not to prosecute these people who
are patently and clearly breaking the law?

does. I mean, it really points to the way that this particular
constituency is creating a crisis trying to put the President in a catch 22
and blaming him for exactly what they created.

DYSON: Right.

CRENSHAW: I mean, let`s not ignore the fact that this is really a
distraction .

DYSON: Right.

CRENSHAW: . from a couple of basic realities. Number one, these are
the very people who have prevented Immigration Reform Bill from even being
voted on.

DYSON: Right.

CRENSHAW: So, they`re extending the crisis and now, they`re
contributing to it by whipping up hysteria, using all the typical in phobic
kind of ideas about immigrant people. And then brining in -- basically the
passing comatose (ph) to come and actually create, what might be the
equivalent of, you know, a civil war at the border. And then on top of it,
they blame the President for it.

So, we`ve seen these before. Let`s just whip up as much controversy
as we possibly can. Make the president appear to be responsible for it,
because he`s not going to go in and, you know, barnstorm at the border.

DYSON: Right.

CRENSHAW: So, he appears to be weak on one hand or overplaying his
hand on the other.

DYSON: Do you think he`s within his legal rights to do what he`s
doing at the border right now? You know, the Republican is going to push
back and say, "Oh my God", you know, leading up to the executive action the
president that they want to then sue. Do you think he`s within his legal
rights to do?

CRENSHAW: You know, that`s very difficult area of law. I think, the
more important question is, is he within his political rights to try to
step in and resolve this .

DYSON: Right.

CRENSHAW: . in a way that tries to maintain order. And at the same
time continue to press what we know we need which is immigration reform.

DYSON: Right. So, look you are a famous for a theory about


DYSON: . less of going on here, right? A lot of dangerous
intersections here, race, class, even gender at a certain elements and of
course region and geopolitics. Tell us about how that kind of place out
here because there`s good stuff and some bad stuff (inaudible).

CRENSHAW: Well, there`s some good stuff and some bad stuff so one
thing, let`s just take off the table, you know, the effort to blame the
President for this entire situation, but the President does have some
liabilities, some of his own making. He speaks movingly about the need for
immigration reform. He speaks movingly about the need for many things,
applying to many of these court constituencies. Let`s take what he talked
about a couple of weeks ago at the Family Summit.

He talked about the fact that any policy that`s going to advance the
interest of women, advances their children, anything that children -- has
to put in women, working women at the center. That`s what he says to these
women. African-Americans, when we`re talking about family policy there,
that sensibility wrap the importance of women kind of drops out of the
equation, right? So, the idea that women are important to the advancement
in the security, in the health of children, doesn`t seem to apply so much
when he`s talking to African-Americans.

Now, we know that this is personal driven, right? We know that he
deeply feels from personal experience that the family is the source of
upward mobility. It`s what makes children secure. That`s been contested
for a long time since Daniel Patrick Moynihan basically said, "We`ll never
do the way with racial inequality until the black family is fixed", but I
don`t want to go for that. What I want to go is for the immigration piece.

We had a webinar today when women of color we`re talking about how to
expand my brother`s keeper, the President`s signature racial justice
program that at the moment only focuses on men and boys of color, and so,
we women of color trying to make the case about why to expanding it. What
one women point it out was, what the President says about the importance of
boys in my brother`s keeper is not being said about immigration that
everyday children wake-up in America worry that their parents are going to
be sent home.

So, he`s is the deporter-in-chief they say, and if we want to talk
about healthy families we`ve got to talk about immigration too.

DYSON: Well, when you talk about the fact that, you know, very
briefly because we got to got but the racial issue besides all the stuff
you just talked about here seems to be pretty explicit here, a lot of
people trying to avoid it but it seems to be front and center of what`s
going on?

CRENSHAW: It`s absolutely front and center here, and that`s why he
has to have a policy that talks about race and gender across all of these
issue areas.

DYSON: All right, Prof. Kimberle Crenshaw as always. Thank you for
your time tonight.

Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the
screen and share your thoughts on twitter@edshow and on Facebook. We want
to know what you think.

Still ahead, Dinesh D`Souza joins me to discuss his new film America,
where would we be without her. But first, the bible (ph) border of
offense/defense and why it`s full of holes.

Trenders is next. Stick around.


DYSON: Time now for The Trenders. Keep in touch with us on
twitter@edshow and on Facebook and you can find me on

The ED Show social media nation has decided and we`re reporting.

Here today`s top trenders voted on by you.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: LeBron, what`s your decision?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The number three trender, The heat is on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uncertain future for one of the biggest sport

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will King James stay with the Heat or will he
take his game back home to the Cleveland Cavaliers?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basketball fans wait for another announcement from

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a timetable for a decision here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s at least one report out there that LeBron
James maybe heading back to Cleveland.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no place like home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know if you can if you`re LeBron James.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you like to sleep on it a little longer or
you`re ready to make this decision?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The number two trender, Waited out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Hoyer showed up almost of whole day before
you could buy a pot from this store in North Bokan (ph).


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible) customer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Washington worker gets canned after buying
cannabis on camera.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone saw him on TV and complains to his

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will take two grams of your (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says his boss sends him a text message asking
him to take a drug test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am unemployed from that company.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He may not have a job but he still has the title
as the first person who bought marijuana legally on cam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am number one and only take that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so I got that point which is the best.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And today`s top trender, What would Jesus do?

Jesus love children but he also respected law.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not touching that with a 60 foot hole.

JEFFRESS: So, we need to do bold. Show compassion by securing the

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A fox friend uses the bible to push for a border

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some have said that you`re cold and callous, and
unchristian if you think these kids need to go back to where they came

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are people. These kids -- they`re human.

JEFFRESS: What we`re doing by having these unsecured borders. We are
enticing children and mothers to make this dangerous journey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They believe that they couldn`t access any
protection from their own government and their only choice to survive was
to actually leave.

JEFFRESS: I think the most compassionate thing we could do for these
children is to secure the border.


DYSON: Joining me now is America`s Preacher. The Rev. Dr. Freddie
Haynes III, Senior Pastor at Friendship West Baptist Church in Dallas
Texas. Dr. Haynes how does your definition of compassion compare with
Pastor Jeffress` definition?

colleague. I play for him. Unfortunately, it seems that he is -- to quote
Shakespeare citing scripture for his own purpose. In a real sense his
Christology is being use to justify a right-wing ideology in order to
protect America, I guess from these refugee children.

I`ll even move from calling them immigrants, unaccompanied children,
to refugees who are fleeing a context that is violent, that is dangerous
and I guess I would ask my dear colleague, have you forgotten about the
Jesus who was a child escaped into Egypt crossed a border as it were in
order to escape what was going on there in his homeland of Bethlehem with
Herod. Have you forgotten about Moses, who was put in a basket by his
mother so that he could escape the genocide that was taking place right
there in Egypt?

And so, I`m hoping that he will come and check out the bible, the
Jesus on the bible who in a real sense was not about building fences but
about building bridges.

DYSON: Yes, very beautifully stated. Conservatives love to quote as
you know, Dr. Haynes, Leviticus when it comes to social issues .


DYSON: . but it seems like they skipped over the part of Leviticus 19
that says this, "When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall
not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the
native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens
in the land of Egypt." So, do these Christians truly follow the word or do
they only use it to their advantage?

HAYNES III: Well, I think they love to use an edited bible because
that of course is edited out of their bible and then they may come back and
say, "Well, what would Jesus do?" Well, Jesus said, "In as much as you do
into the least of these, my brothers and sisters you`re doing it unto me".

Included in those lists of these are foreigners, strangers from
another land. And so, in a real sense it`s almost as if they like to
cherry-pick exactly what fits their right-wing ideology in order to justify
what it is they believe.

DYSON: Absolutely. A teacher at Georgetown University, was a strong
social justice tradition there and the Catholic Church try to strike a
balance saying, prosperous nations are oblige to welcome foreigners in
search of security. While also acknowledging the rights of those nations
to keep their border secure. So, can the religious right balance these two

HAYNES: I hope they can because I`m hoping that they would at least
think about the fact that right there in Honduras, I read earlier today,
one in seven murders takes place in that country. That`s a dangerous
state. And so, when you think about a home that is on fire, people are
going to try to escape that home that`s on fire.

Unfortunately, my colleagues want to throw the back into the fire as
opposed to providing them with some kind of haven and a hope. I`m hoping
that they will provide some balance and quit using Jesus or misusing Jesus
in order to abuse people who are in need of hope and haven.

DYSON: Sure. So, has the President make the right move so far in
asking Congress for almost $4 billion to address the crisis, or should he
go above the Congress and make an executive move.

HAYNES: I think he has to do both then. Unfortunately Congress has
made up their mind and perhaps they hear Robert Jeffery`s as their pastor
telling them what to do and justifying what it is they are not doing. And
so, I think the President must use the power of his pen and office and in
order to do what`s necessary to the offset this humanitarian crisis while
at the same time trying to work with Congress.

We need comprehensive immigration reform which will cover so much of
what many of the right-wing are trying to fight but many of them believe as
long as the President is not the author of it.

DYSON: All right. Reverend Dr. Freddy Haynes III, thank you so much
for joining us here tonight.

HAYNES: Thank you Dr. Dyson.

Coming up. A controversial critic of progressivism, Dinesh D`Souza
and the Rapid Response Panel go head to head.

Plus, another devastating oil pipelines still hits North Dakota. Jane
Kleeb joins me to discuss the damage.

But next, I`m taking your questions Ask MED Live is just ahead. Stay


DYSON: Welcome back to the Ed Show. We love hearing from our viewers
tonight in the Ask MED live. Our first question is, "Do you think -- from
Lenora Rieger -- Do you think Congress will come up with the money for the
crisis on the border?" You know, I wish I could have confidence in this
Congress but they are more interested in abstracting President Obama then
working with him in collaboration to make sure that this crisis is address.

The problem is that the President puts his informator (ph) on, he puts
his stamp on and he says one thing and then Congress who wants to do the
next thing. We know that there are some progressive members of Congress
who understand what this crisis is about, the convergence of a whole host
of things including ethnicity, including race, including gender, including
class and including how we treat people. Xenophobia is the big word just
tossed around but it`s the kind of fear of the other specially those who
are immigrants and then ginning up this kind of nasty tension between, say
African-American people and Latinos around -- in specific form around this
issue of immigration when we should be looking at the entire nation in our
relationship to others.

That`s what we got to work out and I hope the Congress would at least
something in the mean time.

Our next question is from Allen. "Now that even clergy members are
coming out in favor of doing something for the refugee children, what will
Republicans do now?" I wish I could say they pitch in. I wish I could say
they dig deeper into their pockets to come with come resources but
unfortunately these children will be use as political footballs and tossed
around in the advance of the ground game of Republicans to again defeat
President Obama`s legislation and to -- if you will repeal him.

So I think the problem is, if there`s not enough compassion, if
there`s enough understanding, regardless of what you think about how those
kids got here. Now that they are here, are you going to feat (ph) them the
horrible diseases to which they are subject and the tremendously striking
traditions of wants and vulnerability that they are facing makes not a hill
of beans (ph) of difference to the Republicans. So unfortunately, I don`t
think much is going to get done.

Stick around, the Rapid Response Panel is next.

Market Wrap. The markets close lower today with a Dow falling 70 points,
the S&P dropping 8 and the Nasdaq closing off nearly.

It was tough day for discount retailer family dollar and missed at
third quarter earnings forecast. The company plans to close 370 stores
nationwide amid fierce competition.

And six years ago today, Apple launch a feature that would change the
way people use their iPhones and iPods. 77 billion downloads later, happy
anniversary to the App Store.

That`s it from CNBC, first in business, worldwide.


DYSON: Welcome back to the Ed Show. Conservative author and
filmmaker Dinesh D`Souza is pushing back on progressivism.

D`Souza`s newest project doesn`t shy away from confronting the
ideological differences that make his work so disgust.

The film is America, imagining the world without her.


Dinesh D`Souza: This idea that America is based on fact is never
effectively answered.

And in fact many of its promises seem undeniable.

Didn`t we in fact the country from the Indians? Didn`t we in fact
steal the labor of the blacks and so on?

So in this film "America", I want to take this progressive lefties
critic head on. I wanted to be articulate by its best spokesman and then I
want to effectively answer in the banquet.


DYSON: Through interviews including one with yours truly, D`Souza
seeks to challenge the liberal view how we look at our nations past and

Let`s see how he hid.

Joining me now is our Rapid Response Panel, the filmmaker himself
Dinesh D`Souza, Zerlina Maxwell of and Eric Boehlert, Senior
Fellow at Media Matters

Dinesh part two here for us I suppose.


DYSON: You seek the challenge the theft in pillage narrative of
America`s history, how do you reconcile the slate (ph) trade and land grabs
for Native Americans?

D`SOUZA: Well, first of all you have to remember that the epic of
conquest, the idea that you get land by grabbing it from someone else has
been occurring since the dawn of mankind.

When we talk about the Native Americans as a single group but they are
as diverse to people of Europe. When the Europeans got here, every piece
of land that was occupied by a Native American tribe, that tribe had by
enlarge taking it from some other tribe.

So the strong tribes like the Apache and the Navajo and the Comanche
had been rating in conquering the weaker tribes like Pueblo and the Hopi.
So when the Spanish came here and they were doing basically the same thing
and this was all, by the way 200 years before America.

We condemn Christopher Columbus in 1492 but America was started in
1776. So the distance between Columbus and the founding is about as big as
the distance between the founding and today.

So sometimes I think what the left is doing is blaming America for a
conquest epic that is universal and to which America came up with a very
innovative solution which is the idea of wealth creation.

DYSON: Well, look -- but look, the point is when we do comparative of
analysis, look for instance when we talk about slavery. If you look at
books that talk about comparative analysis of slavery, as you make in your
film the argument that look there was induction (inaudible) and there were
nations that enslaved their people. But not until America where
Christianity was directly involved, was the kind of sanctification of the
process of slavery in relationship to divine intent made slavery such a
heinous act.

So even that we have compared of analysis that go out here, they
weren`t equally a savages in what happen in America and there were
devastating dehumanizing impacts that slavery had.

So even if there are truths to what you`re saying, the greater truth
is that there was much more, more of devastation in American slavery that
in other forms.

D`SOUZA: Well first of all, either need to be some important
qualifications. You`ve seen the film so you know that I admit that there
was a racial dehumanization in American slavery that was in fact unique.
And yet even there were exceptions, there were approximately, for example
3.500 black slave owners, free blacks in the American South who owned more
than 10,000 black slaves.

So that is the sort of wrinkles, that`s a wrinkle that undermines the
idea that slavery was purely a black and white issue. But for me the more
important points isn`t that, it`s that slavery was a universal institution
but only one nation, America fought a great war to end it.

So, anti-slavery abolition, that`s the unique achievement of the West
and of America.

DYSON: Right but of course that the alternative could have been,
America could resolve the issue without resort to war. The argument could
be made that the incredible and unique barbarism that accompanied American
slavery occasioned the necessity for a war where other nations can say,
look we got to stop doing this because this is problematic but I don`t
wanted just be a conversation between me and you. Let me bring on the
guests who were here, wanting to engage you.

So, Zerlina when you look at Dinesh D`Souza is doing here, what`s your
take on the comparative analysis of slaveries and the ways in which native
American peoples and tribe are having tribal differences versus the kind of
conquest narrative the Dinesh D`Souza says is universal?

ZERLINA MAXWELL, THEGRIO.COM: Well I think part of the problem here
is that we`re trying to make the response to sort of this black-white
narrative fit in that narrative and you`re missing all of this
intersectional space. I mean, you had Professor Kimberle Crenshaw earlier
on this show.

And one of things I think is that it doesn`t rely in the notion that
slavery was disinheritance evil if you say, well black people own slaves.
That`s something that many people maybe not know but that doesn`t
necessarily then diminished the progressive argument that it was one of the
greatest evils.

And also Native Americans, there were certain sects of Native
Americans that also own slaves. That`s something that most people don`t go

So I just think that, you know, when you`re trying to fit it into this
black-white dynamic you`re missing most of the points. And I think that,
you know, he`s off the mark.

DYSON: Right. So Eric Boehlert, what do you think about this? What
do you think about the narrative framework that says, comparatively
speaking there were other offenses that we viewed in the history of the
world, therefore, what Americas done is not necessarily as uniquely
egregious as one might think?

ERIC BOEHLERT: Well, I mean, that`s an interesting argument you can
make. And my bigger problem is Dinesh D`Souza is not a very good
spokesperson for what liberalism is or what progressivism is.

I mean my bigger problem with him and his work and this movie as part
of it is this -- onslaught for joining liberalism as what its not.


BOEHLERT: He paints as -- Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton is, so
these monsters of the left who were trying to lead America down the dark
path. And I don`t think that`s true.

And from what I understand, I haven`t seen the movie, I`ve read about
it. He certainly gets into that in this movie and I just reject that

DYSON: Well I did see it and let me give Dinesh D`Souza a chance to
respond to those accusations especially about -- because what he`s arguing
is that Saul Alinsky had an impact on President Obama and on Hillary
Clinton. And that Hillary and Barrack Obama have much more in common then
Hillary and Bill.

So -- but your respond Dinesh.

D`SOUZA: Yeah. Part of what we do in the film is we show rare
footage of Alinsky that really hasn`t been seen by anybody. You`ve got to
see this man Saul Alinsky who by the way learned a lot of his tactics of
the hands of the mafia.

He would hang around with the Capone gang and he says that he would
admire the way that they learned how to extort money from people. And for
Alinsky, the question was, how do I do that politically.

Now Obama did not have a close relationship with Alinsky. He never
met Alinsky but he admired Alinsky`s tactics and that`s why he kept going
back to Chicago.

Hillary has had very close ties with Alinsky. She met him in high
school. She had a continuing relationship with him through college. She
wrote her pieces on Alinsky.

So the idea of using Alinsky as the bridge between Obama and Hillary
is perfectly legitimate and it`s one of the American people should know

DYSON: Well Eric Boehlert is pulling over here. I would give you a
chance to respond very briefly before I go on to (inaudible).

BOEHLERT: I mean, you know, I thought we went through all these in
2009, 2010 and Andrew Breitbart (ph) was a big proponent of this, all these
right-wings sites.

I mean, we`re going back to high school of Term Papers College, Term
Papers. This is ridiculous. Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton are
basically centrist democrats.


BOEHLERT: And again this sort of radical notion. I mean, 9 million
new jobs, 17,000 stock exchange, unemployment cut in a half. I mean, if
President Romney had done that the (inaudible) would be loving to
(inaudible) Mt Rushmore.


DYSON: Let me ask about Dinesh D`Souza this. So in your film you
respond to Michael Moore`s assertion that capitalism and greed are
synonymous, do you believe the top 1 percent of Americans are really
unfairly criticized?

D`SOUZA: Well, I think the attack -- the progressive attack always
pretends to be against to 1 percent but it`s really against the immigrants
because when you really look at the tough critic you stole the country from
the Indians, you stole half of Mexico in the Mexican war. Wait a minute,
that was on the top 1 percent.

They were leaving in hands of mansions and cottages on the East Coast.
It`s for penniless immigrants and settlers who went on West. They defeated
the Indians, they bit the Mexicans in the Mexican war. So I think
progressivism is actually hiding its attack. The real logic of its attack
is on the immigrants.

DYSON: Wow. Zerlina, do you want to respond to that? Do you think
it`s a kind of bait and switch here that the real object progressive
ideology is really to take down immigrants?

MAXWELL: No. And I`m pretty sure that many progressive leaders who
happen to be immigrant would disagree with his statement too. And I think
that, you know, the bottom on here is that if Hillary Clinton and Barrack
Obama are the worst when it comes to the radical left and they are the
worst radical that have ever existed in history because they`re -- like you
said Eric, they are centrist Democrats.

You know, Barrack Obama has book called the Audacity of Hope where
talks about his political ideology is very centrist. He is praising Ronald
Reagan, what radical is doing that?

DYSON: All right. Well, Dinesh D`Souza, Zerlina Maxwell and Eric
Boehlert thank you so much for your time.

D`SOUZA: Thank you.

DYSON: Still ahead, breaking details about how speaker John Boehner
lawsuit against President Obama.

Stay tune.


DYSON: We`re following breaking news tonight. We have brand new
details on John Boehner`s lawsuit against the president. House Republicans
have just release details of their lawsuit? You won`t believe the level of
abstraction will bring you this newly release resolutions to sue the
president, after the break. Keep it here.



BOEHNER: This is a problem of the president`s own making. He is been
president for five and a half years. When his going to take responsibility
for something?


DYSON: Breaking news from Capitol Hill. The details of Speaker John
Boehner`s lawsuit against President Obama have been made public. It
appears to be focusing on President Obama`s executive actions related to
the employer mandate of the Affordable Care Act. A short time ago, Speaker
Boehner issued a statement announcing that the White -- that house would
initiate legal action. He said, in 2013, the president changed the health
care law without a vote of congress. Effectively creating his own law by
literally waiving the employer mandate and the penalties for failing to
comply with it. That`s not the way our system of government was designed
to work. No president should have the power to make laws on his or her

The rules committee is expected to hold a hearing on the legislation
next week followed by a marked up the week after that.

I`m joined now by Jane Kleeb, Executive Director of Bold Nebraska and
Zerlina Maxwell of the join us here again. Zerlina was the point
of this? Does this signify in the serious way not that there was ever a
chance that the President will not be able to work with Boehner, that the
house and the executive office are not going to see eye to eye on anything
at all.

MAXWELL: Well I think this pretty much puts the last nail on the

I mean I think that nobody was under the illusion over the past five
years that this house was able to pass legislation that helps people in
their daily life. And so I think that this is one of those things when you
read it and you can`t believe they`re going to spend three weeks on a show
(ph) trial and waste all of our time and money when they could be, you
know, doing, spending on infrastructure or fixing student loans or doing
something to help people in their pocket book on a daily basis.

DYSON: No doubt. So Jane, the lawsuit is likely to drought into the
fall close to the midterm elections. Can Democrat use this to their
advantage? Is there anyway they can gin up their own support and appeal to
their own base?

JANE KLEEB, BOLD NEBRASKA: Yeah, I mean look, this is a legal loser
but is a winner especially for the GOP. I mean Representative Boehner is
literary suing the president for not implementing a portion of the
healthcare reform law which the Republicans asked them to do. So this is
amazing, I mean, because representative Boehner can`t do his job, he can`t
wrangle his completely disgruntled base of -- in the Republican Party.
He`s instead turning focus on a legally loosing, you know, thing that --
it`s going to no where.

DYSON: Right.

KLEEB: And so can the Democrats use this? Of course. The Democrats
can use it because representative Boehner is a good target for Democrats to
use. Essentially saying, you`re not going to work on climate change,
you`re not going to work on immigration, instead you`re going to look at
this legally loosing case.

DYSON: Yeah. And Zerlina, another contradiction of course, they want
the president to use executive power on something.


DYSON: But they don`t want him to use it on others, they want to sue
him for the very thing that they now claim that he should be using, say at
the border and other places. How do you reconcile that? She said, legal
looser and political winner, is that more the same.

MAXWELL: Well, it is disingenuous, I mean, they`re always
disingenuous in their attacks in the president. They`ll always say, he`s
doing too much, but he`s not doing enough. He`s leading from behind, he`s
leading -- he`s a dictator, right? And so I think that, you know, the
number one thing we need to focus on is getting out the vote in 2014 and
really ignoring the right-wing right now because that they`re going to do
is they`re going to distract us from now until the midterm elections. And
they`re going to trump up scandals and they`re going to talk about
impeachment and all of these things that really are distracting us, as a
matter of fact that it`s Democrat who exist in larger numbers than
Republican, certainly younger Democrats in particular.

We can take back the house of representative and at the very least
hold the senate. And I think that, you know, the media is very quick to
state that it`s lost.

DYSON: Right.

MAXWELL: And, you know, they`re very good at distracting us in the
mean time.

DYSON: Right. Well given that Jane that Zerlina is talk about that
distraction. Will the White House have that kind of discipline of message
to stay on focus, to stay on message, to not be able to be distracted from
this? We know Bill Clinton, even in the midst of impeachment, still went
about his work, which is pretty extraordinary. Nothing that severe is
going on here but this law suit promises to be more popping circumstance
about the right-wing agenda. Will they have the ability to create such a
tunnel through all of this and not yield to distraction?

KLEEB: I absolutely think they will. I think the White House is
going to use this to their advantage. They`re going to use this and focus
on things like climate change which the president has been talking about.
I mean we literary have humanitarian crisis on the boarder. We have a
crisis when it comes to climate of country not moving forward on clean
energy and that`s what the White House is going to focus on. Those are the
things that will bring up the Democratic base, to keep the senate to win
some house races. Like in Omaha, we have a very close race against the
Republican and Democrat there with Lee Terry.

So we can use this to our advantage. I cannot believe that
Representative Boehner has literary lost his work ethic. When he talks
about sweeping the floors and all these work ethic, here we go. He doesn`t
have any work ethic.

DYSON: (inaudible) very quickly. Is this enough to fuel the
impeachment talk?

MAXWELL: Yes. I mean that they wanted to impeach the President ever
since he was elected. So I think that, you know, now it just give
legitimacy to really that right when extreme argument.

DYSON: Right. How about you Jane? You think its going to fuel

KLEEB: Yeah, and I think it will -- I mean, absolutely. I think, you
know, there`s a senate candidate in Iowa, you know, who used to talk about,
you know, cutting off hog balls, et cetera. You know, she`s talking about
impeachment as well. And so this will show how crazy some of the senate
candidates are in the right with all these talk of impeachment now taking
the president to the court system. It is crazy talking, it`s not where
Americans want to be.

DYSON: So do you think -- 30 seconds. Obama said, "Hey, sue me. So
what. You know, I`ve dreaming when I wrote this, so sue me if I go too
fast." I`m sorry to get them on prints. What do you think he said after

MAXWELL: He`s like, "I`m going to do my job, you know, later for you

DYSON: All right. How about you Jane, what do you think? You think
he`s ...

KLEEB: Yeah, and I think he`s just going to this right. Yes. I mean
the President going to say, "Look, brushing it off my shoulder, I`m off,
I`m out of here. I`m going to do my job."

DYSON: So these are lawsuits on their shoulders here.

MAXWELL: No, no, no.

DYSON: Is that right? So he`s going to go see the on the run tour


DYSON: And yet Beyonce and Jay-Z do to certify (inaudible). Let me -
- so the reality is that the President is in this fix but the right-wing is
attacking but obviously he`s in a serious, serious shape here. Jane Kleeb,
Zerlina Maxwell, thank you so very much.

That`s the Ed Show, I`m Michael Eric Dyson in for Ed Schultz.


Copyright 2014 Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>