IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, July 14th, 2014

Read the transcript from the Monday show

July 14, 2014

Guest: Jim Moran, Josh Barro, Wagatwe Wanjuki, Olivia Nuzzi, Dr. Bernice


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: The restraint of the Israelis, in my
view, is admirable.

HAYES: The escalation in Gaza leaves 178 dead. Israel continues
airstrikes as Hamas launches rockets. And the Israeli military stands
ready for a possible ground invasion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the order is given, they`ll be ready to move.

HAYES: Tonight, is a cease-fire around the corner? We`ll go to Gaza
for the latest.

Then, the humanitarian crisis on our borders.

REP. MIKE MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: I also saw some 17-year-olds that I
thought looked more like a threat to coming into the United States.

HAYES: Congress debates a solution as some compare the crisis to an

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: Stop the invasion into the United

HAYES: Then, more shocking evidence of colleges covering up sexual
assaults on campus. Amid a growing firestorm, we take a look at why police
are cut out from campus investigations across the country.

Plus, deep thoughts on how to spend taxpayer money from Dick Cheney.

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: Turn around the whole trend with
respect to the United States military, that ought to be our top priority
for spending, not food stamps or highways or anything else.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Tonight, breaking news of a proposed cease-fire to end the crisis in
the Middle East, as the death toll in Gaza nears 200. The violence between
Israel and Hamas threatens to spill past the borders of the region,
reaching as far away as Los Angeles and Paris.

In L.A. yesterday, a federal homeland security officer opened fire
after a truck full of pro-Palestinian demonstrators showed up at a pro-
Israel rally resulting in a scuffle. The officer fired at least one shot,
allegedly at the truck as it fled the scene, has been placed on
administrative leave.

According to "The L.A. Times", police later caught up with the vehicle
and arrested the men inside. The four men were arrested on suspicion of
assault with a deadly weapon, according to the L.A. County sheriff`s

In Paris on Sunday, worshippers were trapped inside a synagogue for
hours when after a large, peaceful pro-Palestinian march, some number of
pro-Palestinian protesters tried to force their way in with bats and
chairs, according to the "A.P.", clashing with security officers outside.
All those inside the synagogue were thankfully able to leave safely later
in the day. This comes after a fire bomb was thrown at a synagogue in
Paris suburbs Friday night.

Meanwhile, in Israel, a new report out today on one of the incidents
that fueled the current crisis. The Shin Bet security service says three
Israeli suspects in the murder of Palestinian teen Mohamed Abu Khdeir
confessed to abducting admitted to burning and killing him alive, in
retaliation for the deaths of three Israeli teens who were kidnapped last
month and later found dead.

An indictment is expected to be filed by the end of this week, and the
ongoing conflict continues to escalate today, with Israel saying it shot
down a drone sent from Gaza, the first time a Hamas drone is known to have
entered Israeli airspace. Hamas for its part says it retains an arsenal of
drones for both reconnaissance and attacks on Israeli targets.

At the same time, Hamas and other militants continue to fire rockets
into Israel, left at least 115 over the last day, bringing the total up to
more than 1,000 since hostilities began a week ago, according to the
Israeli defense forces. They have thus far resulted in no deaths.

Israel continues its campaign of air strikes in Gaza, hitting a mosque
on Saturday and home for the disabled where two people were killed.
According to the Palestinian health ministry, 186 Palestinians have been
killed in the conflict so far, including 30 women and 41 children.

But today for the first time in this most recent round of violence,
there are signs of a possible breakthrough with Egypt stepping in to broker
a cease-fire. Proposed deal would mandate an immediate cessation of
hostilities in exchange for re-opening of border crossings in Gaza and
high-level negotiations between the two parties.

Israeli TV reports Israel`s cabinet is set to meet tomorrow to discuss
the proposal. I spoke in the last hour with NBC foreign correspondent
Ayman Mohyeldin in Gaza City. I started by asking him how news of the
possible ceasefire has been received there.


initial reactions from some of key Palestinian factions, including both
Hamas and Islamic jihad, and the indications are that this cease-fire will
not be accepted.

Now, that`s not the official position. There`s still ongoing

But based on the initial draft they have seen of the Egyptian
proposal, it doesn`t seem that the Palestinian factions and their
representatives feel that cease-fire meets their demands. They have been
very clear about what it would take to put an end to the ongoing round of
violence and the cease-fire is really more of a status quo agreement than
it is in terms of breaking any new ground and trying to achieve some of the
key sticking points of what the Palestinian faction have been demanding.

HAYES: What are those demands? My understanding is that some of that
has to do with some of the people that were put in prison in the wake of
the three Israeli Yeshiva students who were kidnapped and murdered, some of
whom were released as part of a prior deal and Hamas feels that that was a
violation of that prior deal.

MOHYELDIN: That`s correct. In order to really get a sense of why
this violence broke out and why Hamas and the Palestinian factions have
taken this position, you do have to go back a few weeks and kind of put it
in that context.

Now, in the wake of the killing of those three Jewish teenagers,
Israel went on a massive manhunt in the West Bank, arresting hundreds of
Palestinian political activists, including senior members of Hamas in the
West Bank and others. They also demolished the homes of some alleged
suspects that no evidence was put forth against them. And that really
pushed Hamas and others to the brink. They felt that there was nothing
happening in their eyes in accordance with any kind of justice or law.

And that has been one of their key points throughout this conflict,
that their cessation of hostilities would only come with both a cessation
of hostilities on the Israeli side, but at the same time, the release of
some of these very senior members of Hamas in the West Bank who haven`t
been charged with any crimes, but simply arrested to try to put pressure on
some members of Hamas who the Israeli government believes were behind the
killing of those three Jewish teenagers.

That has not been stipulated in the Egyptian agreement and more
importantly, beyond that, one of the central issues that Palestinian
factions have been fighting for, for the past several years, is a complete
lifting of this siege and blockade that has been imposed on Gaza since as
far back as 2007, which really restricts the free movement of goods and
people in and out of the territory. They want the siege not eased, not
simply temporarily open, but entirely lifted and that certainly is not on
the table in this agreement.

HAYES: Ayman, you`ve been in Gaza over the weekend. It was an
incredibly deadly weekend, a barrage of Israeli airstrikes, 178 dead, many
of them civilians. What have you seen over this weekend? What is it like
to be there under this assault?

MOHYELDIN: Well, I`ve actually had a chance to cover Gaza for several
years, several rounds of violence. This is actually the third war, if you
will, that I`ve covered here in the Gaza Strip between Israel and various
Palestinian factions.

This particular round of conflict had a very different flavor to it.
You certainly feel the toll that this siege and the impact of the previous
conflicts have taken on the people here. The infrastructure of Gaza has
been decimated for years. Palestinians have been suffering as a result of
that blockade. You see that exacerbated even more by the past few days of
the fighting.

That has taken a toll on the people here psychologically. You get a
sense that there is definitely a sense of deflation among ordinary
Palestinians. But at the same time, there is a very strong sense of
resilience when people are pushed to the brink, if you will, and their back
is up against the wall.

We`ve seen a very different side of the Palestinian militant factions
and their military wings demonstrating new capabilities, longer range
rockets, a strong sense of defiance, if you will, among the factions.
Their capabilities have certainly improved. That I think as well has
raised a certain degree of confidence among Palestinian people.

But no doubt about it, there is a sense of exhaustion here on the
ground in Gaza.

HAYES: NBC News foreign correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin -- stay safe,
thank you.

MOHYELDIN: Thanks, Chris.


HAYES: It`s been two years since Israel and Hamas last traded fire as
they`ve done over the past week, and the death toll was similarly lopsided
last time around, with 167 Palestinians and six Israelis killed.

Back then, the hostilities were halted, thanks to a cease-fire
brokered by then-Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi of the Muslim
Brotherhood. In what was widely viewed as a grand gesture of
statesmanship, Morsi stepped in as the intermediary between Israel and
Hamas, the Brotherhood`s ally, to stop the situation from escalating any
further. It was taken as a sign that Egypt would continue to play an
important role on behalf of Middle East peace, even with the Muslim
Brotherhood in power.

Today, that picture is very different. Mohamed Morsi has been deposed
and sent to jail. Muslim Brotherhood has been outlawed and almost 200 of
its members sentenced to death. Egypt`s new military dictatorship wants
little to do with Hamas.

So, while Egypt is step in once again to ease the conflict between
Israel and Hamas, it`s not clear whether now it has the leverage or power
of persuasion to bring both parties to the table.

Here in the U.S., perhaps the only other country that could play that
role, there seems to be little appetite for negotiation. Although
President Obama offered last week to broker a cease-fire, Congress is
advancing a resolution to express its unilateral support for Israel`s

Senator John McCain had this to say about the conflict.


MCCAIN: There`s no moral equivalency here. Israel is being attacked
by hundreds of rockets. Their people, a third of their population has got
about a 60-second warning. So the restraint of the Israelis, in my view,
is admirable.


HAYES: Few U.S. lawmakers have actually called for a cease-fire to
end the crisis. One of them is here tonight.

Joining me now, Congressman Jim Moran of Virginia.

Congressman, you are on the record, I understand it, supporting a
cease-fire. You`re fairly lonely in that regard. Why do you think that


HAYES: Can you hear me, Congressman?

MORAN: Oh, yes. I didn`t know. I was listening to your -- thank
you. I didn`t realize I was on. Excuse me, Chris. I didn`t get the
question, though.

HAYES: You were on record calling for a cease-fire, and there aren`t
a whole lot of members of Congress calling for such a cease-fire. Why do
you think that is?

MORAN: Well, Israel has the overwhelming support of the American
Congress. There are a few of us who feel that, you know, a cease-fire is
the only way to go, and it`s in Israel`s, as well as the Palestinians`
interest to have a cease-fire.

Lives are of value. And there are going to be too many innocent
Palestinians killed in this. I don`t think that there are going to be many
Israelis. We have helped Israel secure the Iron Dome. And really these
rockets that have been fired from the Gaza Strip, they`re fairly feckless.
I mean, they fall in land that is generally unoccupied, but nevertheless,
they are a threat. And I suspect if Hamas could kill people with them,
they certainly would.

But Israeli clearly has the capacity to kill more Gazans and I think
they will as long as rockets continue to be fired from the Gaza Strip.

So, a cease-fire seems to be in everyone`s interest. The fact is
Israel only generates more hatred, not just from Hamas, but the Arab and
Muslim community throughout the world, I suspect with what`s going on, with
the possible exception of Egypt, perhaps.

And certainly from the Palestinian standpoint, they`re going to
continue to lose lives and many of them are going to be innocent women and

So, yes, I think a cease-fire is an order. I don`t think that Hamas
has much leverage with Egypt, though. I`m a little surprised that they
turned down the first offer. I mean, they want Egypt to open up the
border, the tunnels with the Gaza Strip. Why would Egypt do that? They
see Hamas as affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood and I think properly

And, certainly, Hamas has supported the opposition to President
Assad`s government in Syria, which means that Hezbollah isn`t going to
support Hamas, nor is Syria.

And so, Hamas has pretty well been isolated. I don`t think they have
a lot of leverage. They`re willing, obviously, to sacrifice a lot of
civilians in this. But I don`t see what gains them. I don`t think it`s
necessarily in Israel`s long-term interest, either.

They can`t kill all of the people in the Gaza and they can`t eliminate
Hamas. They can certainly teach them a lesson and their objective is long-
term stability in Gaza. I`m not sure that`s going to be achieved when you
have as many deaths as has occurred from this recent conflict.

HAYES: Quickly, Congressman, I wanted to get your reaction to
something that Benjamin Netanyahu said on Friday. He said, "I think the
Israeli people understand now what I always say. There cannot be a
situation under any agreement in which we relinquish security control of
the territory rest of the River Jordan." He`s talking about the West Bank.

Is that Benjamin Netanyahu saying there is no possibility of a two-
state solution?

MORAN: That`s what he`s suggesting. I`m not sure that he really
believes that. I -- and I don`t think, you know, he`s going to be the
prime minister of Israel forever. At some point, there has to be a two-
state solution or you`re going to have this revenge of the cradle where the
demographics are going to prevent Israel from being able to have one state
that elects a democratic government that isn`t Palestinian, because the
Palestinian growth rate is so much greater than Israel`s growth rate. So,
they need a two-state solution.

So, what Netanyahu is saying I`m not sure how that he really believes
that or that`s going to be Israel`s long-term policy.

HAYES: Congressman Jim Moran of Virginia, always a pleasure. Thank

MORAN: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: A Republican congressman explains what the state of Texas is
entitled to do in order to stop the border crisis.


GOHMERT: Whether it`s troops, even using ships of war, even exacting
a tax on interstate commerce, it wouldn`t normally be allowed to have, or
utilize, they`d be entitled in order to pay to stop the invasion.


HAYES: Rhetoric like that isn`t limited to Congress. The latest act
of vandalism in the immigration wars, I`ll tell you about that, ahead.


HAYES: The deportations have officially begun. We`ll bring you the
details, ahead.


HAYES: Tonight, the deportations have begun. The Department of
Homeland Security, which is promising expedited deportations for families
who have recently crossed the border, announced earlier today that around
40 adults and children who recently crossed into the U.S. were flown back
to Honduras. Officials describe the deportations as, quote, "The initial
wave that appears to be an effort by the administration to deal with the
rising invective on the right and the elevated temperature of the political
conversation directed at the unaccompanied migrant children and sometimes
women who are showing up at the border in record numbers."

Over the past few weeks, we`ve seen protests in California, Michigan,
and Texas around the mere possibility of migrant children being held in
local facilities. Today, another incident, this time graffiti on a
proposed shelter for unaccompanied minors in Maryland reading, "no illegals

Meanwhile, the White House is promising to provide due process for the
unaccompanied migrant children who were in the country. Today, my
colleague, Jose Diaz-Balart talked to one of those children, a young girl
named Maria who made the journey from Honduras just a couple months ago.



Now that you`re here in the United States, are you worried you will be



DIAZ-BALART: "Si, yes. Because I arrived to this country without
papers. Without any permission. I arrived just to save my own life so I
could continued my dream, so I could help my family."

Is it important if you`re deported?


DIAZ-BALART: "It will be a tragedy. It would be a certain death for
me. Everything that`s happened to me since, everything that`s happened to
me in my life, I would just know that that would be the last day."


Would you die if you return?


DIAZ-BALART: "Yes, of course. I would die."


HAYES: Joining me now, Jose Diaz-Balart, host of "THE JOSE DIAZ-
BALART", which started today on this network.

I`m proud to be a colleague of yours. That was a really remarkable
interview. Thank you for that.

DIAZ-BALART: Thank you very much.

HAYES: I think it`s very important, Jose, to put that -- to put the
stakes for the people who are coming here back in the center of this
conversation, as people talk about expedited deportation or how quickly can
we get these kids out of here? I mean, there are -- these children have
real claims to asylum. They have a day in court under the law and they`re
going to be able -- they should be able, they`re entitled to go before some
magistrate and make their claim that they are entitled to asylum because
they will be killed if they ever return to their country.

DIAZ-BALART: Look, these three countries, Honduras probably the most
violent country in the world, El Salvador has a massive guerilla and gang
problem. I should say gang problem. And Guatemala does as well.

And then add to Guatemala and add to Honduras, you have the narco
cartels out of Mexico seeping into the three Central American countries to
do their dirty work.

So, you have like Maria, by the way, Maria is one of tens of thousands
of kids and unaccompanied minors and women that have been crossing over
since last October. Her voice is not unusual. When you talk to the
people, they`re coming over the border.

And you know what, let me ask you, and let me ask our viewers. So
what would you do?

HAYES: Right.

DIAZ-BALART: If you were home like Maria and the gangs come to your
house and kill her brother, couple years later come back and say you`re our
property. Or we`ll do to you what we did to your brother. What would you?
What would you be willing to do? What would you do -- what would you feel
is necessary to do?

You know what, the vicissitudes she had to go through to come to this
country are gut-wrenching, the most horrible things that a human being can
do to another human being, she had to go through. And yet, all she`s
asking is for the opportunity to stay, to fulfill her dreams.

You know what? The United States has a quota of responsibility in
what`s going on in Central America.

HAYES: There has been a rising tide of kind of invective sort of
leveled at these kids. And I just want to play a little bit of sound of
Louie Gohmert, congressman from Texas, basically describing what`s
happening as an invasion. Take a listen.


GOHMERT: World English Dictionary defines "invasion", among the
definitions is invading with armed forces. But it`s any encroachment or
intrusion, the onset or advent of something harmful, as in a disease,
pathologically the spread of cancer from its point of origin into
surrounding tissues.


HAYES: What do you make of that kind of rhetoric?

DIAZ-BALART: Chris, I have no idea what he said. I just don`t. I
don`t know what he`s trying to accomplish. I don`t know what he said.
Maybe it`s the language barrier in me tonight. But I have no idea what
he`s trying to accomplish.

I`ll tell you this. I`ll tell you this. When you wish something to
go away simply by wishing it to go away, it`s not going to go away. The
problems are real. It`s life and death in these countries.

And we have a quota of responsibility. And it`s OK, if you want to
build a big wall thinking that`s going to solve your problem, let`s go to
the page on European history where they built the Maginot wall.

HAYES: Right.

DIAZ-BALART: If that`s what the invasion`s all about.

HAYES: Yes. Jose Diaz-Balart, his brand new show can be found on
this network each day at 10:00 a.m. I`ve been making sure I see it. I saw
it this morning. It was great.

Thank you so much.

DIAZ-BALART: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. If you read celebrity Web sites and blogs like,
well, I admit I sometimes do, you know that the modern celebrity`s
basically in a perpetual state of suing or being sued. Today we`ve got
news of a celebrity lawsuit that could make life better and safer for all
of us. I`ll tell you what it is, ahead.


HAYES: Comedian Tracy Morgan is suing the largest retailer in the
world, Wal-Mart. The "30 Rock" and "SNL" alum was released from a
rehabilitation center Saturday and continues to recover from the gruesome
accident last month that left him in critical condition and killed fellow
comedian James McNair.

Morgan, McNair and two other people were returning from a performance
in Delaware on June 7th when their tour van was rear ended on the New
Jersey turnpike by a Wal-Mart truck driver.

Criminal complaint filed a couple of days after the crash contends
that Kevin Roper, a Wal-Mart employee, who was driving a company tractor
trailer, had not slept in over 24 hours before the crash. Roper is being
charged with vehicular homicide.

And we know now according to that suit that before the crash, Roper
had driven to, quote, "Wal-Mart distribution center in Delaware after
traveling there from his home in Georgia, a trip of more than 700 miles
that would have taken him more than 11 hours to drive."

Wal-Mart released a statement that reads in part, "We`re deeply sorry
one of our trucks was involved. We know it will take some time to resolve
remaining issues as a result of the accident and committed to doing the
right thing for all involved."

For all the complaints in American life about people rushing to the
courthouse and suing, this strikes me as one of those occasions for which
lawsuits are intended, because there`s a problem here bigger than just one
truck driver.

Truck drivers in this country, folks who crisscross interstates for
hours and hours at a time are not paid by the hour. They`re paid by the
mile. And that single policy has a tendency to create an incentive for
drivers to push through unimaginably long distances for unimaginably long
stretches, and to push their body past the breaking point of exhaustion.

According to a 2006 study, fatigue-related causes accounted for 13
percent of all trucking accidents. And, federal officials say that fatigue
was often underreported in crash investigations because truck drivers do
not want to acknowledge being sleepy, less they be seen as at fault.

According to 2012 data from Department of Transportation, fatalities
and crashes involving large trucks showed a 4 percent increase from 2011.
And, of those deaths in 2012, 73 percent were occupants of other vehicles.
Last year, the Obama administration issued rules designed to ensure that
commercial truckers on the road get their proper rest by capping a driver`s
average workweek at 70 hours down from the previous maximum of 82.

But, trucking companies argue the changes would cost them money.
Appearing to side with the trucking companies, Republican Senator Susan
Collins of Maine, just a few days before the Tracy Morgan crash, she
sponsored an amendment that basically rolled back the federal requirements
put in place by the Obama administration. It passed the senate
appropriations committee by a 21-9 vote.

But, big interests like Wal-Mart and other retailers and trucking
companies attempting to roll back these regulations, Tracy Morgan`s lawsuit
might be just the thing needed to bring this issue out into the open where
it deserves to be debated. Long trucking hours mean efficiency and profit
for private companies and public safety risks for everyone else on the
roads. And, we should get a say as to whether that is a fair trade.


HAYES: OK. If congress does not act soon, the highway trust fund,
which funds the construction upkeep of most of the country`s transportation
infrastructure is going to run out of money next month. Now, this is
money, just to be clear, that allows us to build roads and to keep in
working condition. It is the money we use to -- I do not know, say, to
keep bridges from falling down.

And, the reason the highway trust fund is running out of money is that
congress has raised the $18.4 cent per gallon gas tax, which is what funds
the highway and trust fund in 21 years. Now, if the highway trust fund
runs dry, it will not just be bad news for our roads, it will also mean a
lot of lost jobs, as the president pointed out this month.


not act by the end of the summer, the highway trust fund will run out.
There will not be any money there. All told, nearly 700,000 jobs could be
at risk next year. That would be like congress threatening to lay off the
entire population of Denver or Seattle or Boston. That is a lot of people.


HAYES: But do not worry, congress has come up with a solution. It is
one that could only come from our United States congress. The plan
involves, ready for this, letting corporations underfund their pension
systems. Yes. I know. That sounds crazy.

Nonetheless, a bill to do just that was considered today in the house
and this afternoon the White House endorsed the house bill as a temporary
fix to keep the trust fund solvent through next year. Now, sure, this all
seems pretty nuts and we are going to explain it in a moment. But, if you
want a silver lining, consider this, it could be much worse if a certain
former vice president were in charge.


Turn around the whole trend with respect to the United States military,
that ought to be our top priority for spending, not food stamps or highways
or anything else.


HAYES: OK. Joining me now to explain this, MSNBC contributor, Josh
Barro, national correspondent for "The New York Times" and "Up Shot" where
you wrote about this.


HAYES: OK. High trust funds running out of money.

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: We need because we will not risk the gas tax.

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: We need money to go into the trust fund and the solution to
that is allowing companies to put less money in their pensions. Please

BARRO: Well, so, if let them put less money in their pensions, they
report that they are more profitable, right? Because they say they have
less pension expense than they did otherwise.

HAYES: So, if I had to put in $100 and your new law says, I had to
put in $80. I take those $20 bucks as profit.

BARRO: Right. And, so you pay tax on the profit. So, the government
collects a little bit more in corporate income tax. It takes that money,
puts it in the highway trust fund. Now, granted, these companies will
eventually have to put this money in their pension funds, so later they
will pay less corporate tax. But, if it falls outside the 10-year budget
window that congress uses to decide whether the budget is balanced, it is
like it does not count.

HAYES: But, here is the point. You are not creating any new revenue.


HAYES: You are pulling revenue from the future into the present.

BARRO: Exactly. Because of that 10-year thing -- and, so that the
amount of revenue this will generate over 10 years is enough to fill the
highway trust fund back up for five more months. So, this buys us five
months then in January we will have to come back and find a new gimmick to
put money in highway trust fund. We cannot use the pension thing because
we already used it. But, we will have to come up with something --

HAYES: The funny thing about this, is when you cover congress in the
era of pay go, right? Where everything has to be paid for?

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: This thing which is known on the Capitol Hill as pension
smoothing is like everyone is favorite gimmick pay for.

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: It is like, "Oh, you got some new expense, like can we do
pension smoothing on that?"

BARRO: Right. No, the thing I find when you talk to people about
this, nobody really opposes doing it. They just want to make sure that it
is spent on what they want. So, democrats want to use this to extend
unemployment benefits or there is something in the senate that has to do
with a fund for coal miners who are owed payments. They want to use this
for that. Republicans previously proposed to use this to repeal the
medical device task.

HAYES: OK, but the big thing here, of course -- the underlying thing
is we have not raised the gas tax. That strikes me as -- there are
arguments against the gas tax. There are sort of arguments on sort of
distributional equity in terms of who gets hit by a gas tax.

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: But, I mean that to me is the problem, right?

BARRO: Right. Well, so, given that we have not raised the gas tax in
21 years, that actually means it has fallen by 39 percent in real terms
because it is not adjusted for inflation. And, cars have gotten more fuel
efficient over that periods. So, the gas tax is supposed to be like a user
fee. Use a certain amount of gas per mile. We collect the tax. We pay
for the road.

HAYES: Right, because you are driving on that road, right?

BARRO: Rigth. So, as cars get more fuel efficient, the gas tax
should actually go up because you need to collect more per gallon because
people use fewer gallons of gas for the amount of roads that they are
using. Because all of this, it has gotten way out of whack. A lot of
states have not kept up with their own gas taxes. So, we have had
starvation of highway funding both at the federal and at the state level.

HAYES: This heritage right now is urging lawmakers to vote, "No,"

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: This is -- you know, someone made the point -- I forget where
I saw this today, so apologies to the person who is not crediting it. Part
of the reason that we have actually seen some good job numbers in the
economy doing well is that we have actually been gone for a very long
period of time without a crisis, right? We have managed to go without a
possible threat of default, a shutdown, some sort of nonsense. This could
bring that streak to an end.

BARRO: Well, I think we probably will not end up with the highway
fund running dry. I think we will do this nonsense and then we will figure
out something else.

HAYES: But, this nonsense is better than the thing running dry

BARRO: Probably, yes. I mean it is not completely consequence-free.
The thing is that if you let companies underfund their pension systems and
then they go bankrupt, somebody has to pay the pensioners and that ends up
being really taxpayers because the federal government ensures those taxes.

HAYES: This is a key point because everyone talks about this thing.
Well, you are just moving money from the future to the current, to now.

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: But, there is time in between in which they might go bankrupt.
If their pension is underfunded, someone is got to pay out on that.

BARRO: Right. And, these rules came out in the 1970s when the
Studebaker Auto company went bankrupt and let all of its workers without
their pensions, the federal government said, "Well, gee, we better insure
these; but, if we are going to ensure them we have to make the supplier
fund them." And, we have done pretty well over the last 40 years over the
rules on this. Except, you know, this thing they are talking about doing
now, we did it in the 2012 highway bill.


BARRO: So, we have already let corporation underfund their pensions
through 2014. This is extending the period through 2017 in order to pick
up some more revenue.

HAYES: It is just the most perfect little window into, like, what it
takes to get, like, the basic mechanisms of any kind of government
happening in Washington. There is this idea that, like, everything has to
be paid for. There is a sort of austerity mania --

BARRO: Right.

HAYES: But, then the way that we deal with it in our theory, because
we do not want to raise taxes is essentially gimmickry.

BARRO: Right. Well, the thing is everybody in congress knows this is
a fake pay for.

HAYES: Right.

BARRO: And, in fact, John Boehner`s justification for why republicans
would not support the extension --

HAYES: Which they slammed as a fake pay for.

BARRO: Right. And, he was right. It was a fake pay for. But, now
that he has a thing he wants, he is entitled to using it --

HAYES: MSNBC Contributor, Josh Barro. Thanks, man.

BARRO: Thank you.

HAYES: Who should investigate and rule on allegations of campus
sexual assault? How about a person in charge of fund-raising for the
school? You think that makes sense? That story is next.



forward, I felt so good because I was told that people had my back. They
believed me and that the right thing would be done. To look back on that
now, it is just, like, why would you say that? How could you say that?


HAYES: Her name is Anna, and last September as an 18-year-old college
freshman at Hobart and William Smith colleges in Upstate New York, she
reported she was sexually assaulted by members of the school`s football
team. Her story investigated by "The New York Times" is a peek behind the
curtain at how all kinds of universities and colleges handle these cases.

A sexual assault nurse who examined Anna at a local hospital found
blunt force trauma, indicating intercourse with either multiple partners
multiple times or the intercourse was very forceful. But as "The Times`"
examination into Anna`s case found, it took the college just 12 days to
investigate the rape report, hold a hearing, and clear the football

Anna had decided against talking to police and chose to handle the
matter through the school. Her case was adjudicated by a three-member
panel comprised of the school`s vice president of human resources and
assistant psychology professor, and the director of the campus bookstore.

As "The Times" reports, until last year, Hobart and William Smith`s
chief fund-raiser also helped oversee the school`s handling of sexual
assaults. The two functions are now separate. Anna`s hearing proceeded
before her rape kit results were known and the medical records indicating
trauma were not shown to two of the three panel members that decided on her

Hobart and William Smith Colleges releasing a statement in reaction to
the reporting by "The Times" that reads in part "The colleges disagrees
with the reporter`s interpretation of the events and his portrayal of the
colleges its students and its processes." Anna is just one of thousands,
perhaps tens of thousands of young women across the country who are
survivors of sexual assault on campus, and momentum to do something about
the epidemic has been building.

There has been a flood of media scrutiny. A White House summit, and
just last week a congressional subcommittee released a jaw dropping report.
Among its findings, more than 40 percent of the nation`s colleges and
universities have not investigated a single sexual assault case over the
last five years. It is some of those same institutions have reported
incidents of sexual violence to the department of education during the same
period of time.

Senator Claire McCaskill who commissioned the study says legislation
is in the works to improve the handling of these cases by schools. Joining
me now, Wagatwe Wanjuki, an organizer of "Know Your IX," and contributing
feminist, Olivia Nuzzi who is a political reporter of "The Daily Beast."
Wagatwe, let me start with you. This case in "The Times" -- Front page of
"The Times," crazy case, but not necessarily super atypical, right?

just one of many colleges, they are systemically failing survivors and not
handling sexual assault. They are seeing it as a PR problem rather than a
safety problem and holding their own students accountable and protecting
other students.

HAYES: So, some of the things we have seen here -- I mean conflicts
of interest, the internal body, the three people adjudicating the case who
do not necessarily seem to be qualified to be adjudicating that. Are those
themes you find across all sorts of different schools?

WANJUKI: Yes, definitely. Some schools, the administrators do not
know what sexual assault is. So, we are having people making findings
about who is being held responsible, but they are not being properly
trained across the board.

HAYES: Olivia, you have been reporting on this and it seems to me
that this -- I mean obviously there has been sexual assault on campus for a
long time, and very high levels of it, I would even dare say. The issue
has broken out, I would say, in the past 12 months. What do you think is
driving that?

media plays a really big role. I think the more that you see survivors
come forward and share their stories like Anna did, the more that other
survivors look at that and say, "OK, I can come forward. I do not need to
keep this a secret anymore."

HAYES: It reminds me of when I covered the Catholic Church and the
allegations -- allegations -- the pattern of sexual misconduct, sexual
abuse of minors in the church which was the same thing. There was this
sort of shame and silence that kept the whole thing secret.

And inside the institution, as soon as that wall started to break down
and people saw it came forward, and said, "Oh, yes, father so-and-so did
this to me, someone else comes forward and says the same thing. So, you
are getting a little bit of a kind of like a group effect it seems to me
where there is a kind of empowerment that is happening across women across

WANJUKI: And, I think colleges are definitely taking advantage of the
silence around sexual violence and that survivors at different schools were
not able to communicate with each other before. So, now we have Facebook.
We have Twitter. There is Listers. So, now we are able to --

HAYES: Is there a community and are people exchanging --

WANJUKI: Yes, so we are exchanging activists` best practices, where
empowering each other and telling each other about our rights under Title
IX. A lot of times, students does not know their rights under Title IX and
now they are able to share that.

HAYES: Explain "Know Your IX." Well, explain what Title IX is and
the rights under Title IX.

WANJUKI: So, Title IX is a federal law that guarantees gender equity
on college campuses so that includes properly responding to sexual violence
and also properly preventing it from happening at the school.

HAYES: Why is it the case that this is being done all investigated
internally and not by police departments and prosecutors?

NUZZI: Well, there is no legal obligation, unless the state, Ohio, if
you know about a felony, you have to go to law enforcement.

HAYES: That is a state law that guides administrators.

NUZZI: Yes. Unless there is a state law that forces you to do that.
Schools do not have an obligation to go to law enforcement. So, what you
have are these mock trials, basically, at colleges where you have students
investigating students and it is just not working out for anyone.

HAYES: And, someone is coming forward and saying this person did
something to me that is a felony, that could put someone away for 15 years
-- 20 years. I mean this is an extremely serious crime that occurred that
I am accusing someone and the response is, "Let`s get in a room with some
administrators and figure out whether this person should be suspended." It
seems bonkers to me.

WANJUKI: I think --

NUZZI: Well --

WANJUKI: -- Sorry.

NUZZI: Go ahead.

WANJUKI: I think we really need to make sure that, like, schools are
federally required to handle sexual violence, like they are required by
law. And, a lot of survivors are not comfortable going to the police,


WANJUKI: The criminal justice system is not really adequate and
properly addressing rape.

HAYES: This is a key point, right? Because, my immediate reaction to
these stories has been like where are the cops? But, then it is like,
well, what is to say even a police department or prosecutor in a small
town, or even a big city, are going to be better equipped to deal with it.

NUZZI: Right. I think a lot of survivors, a lot of advocates have
said, "No, we have heard too many horror stories about people going to the
police and the police dismissing these claims." Especially, if it is --
like a lot of college incidents are between two people who know each other,
I think police are much less likely, they really take it seriously.

But, at the same time if you go through the school process, they
cannot find you guilty of rape. They cannot find you guilty of a felony.
They can only find you guilty of varying degrees of sexual misconduct.

HAYES: Plus there is also a real problem in terms of public safety
for people who are repeat offenders. I mean this is a problem in the
church, right? So, even if someone gets suspended or they transferred to
another school, like, that person who is committed this heinous act, right,
is now going to be around other people without people knowing, like, that
strikes me as a real problem as well.

WANJUKI: And, it is very likely, too, so this is something that
really needs to be figured out and needs to be figured out.

NUZZI: I mean there is also been a research that rapists that they
know they are going to be held accountable for their actions. They are
actually less likely to commit on college campuses. So, we really need to
have schools to take the initiative and punish these people for what they
have done.

HAYES: So, what I am hearing of you is that in criminalization model
of prosecution and police is not the fix, right? It is not like, "Go to
the cops, that is going to fix it."

NUZZI: Right.

HAYES: There has to be a functioning system inside schools. And, I
want to talk to someone who is around when Title IX was being drafted about
how we got to the point we are at. Wagatwe Wanjuki and Olivia Nuzzi, thank
you both. The story behind this very problem, how it came to be like this,
that is next.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I did not report at first because it is
a big emotional trauma and I did not feel like dealing with it at first.
Until I met at that time two other women who told me the same person who
have assaulted me had assaulted them. The school found a way to dismiss
each of our three cases separately. My rapist -- It still goes to my
school and still is on campus.


HAYES: That was just one woman story on the campus of one American
University. Colleges and universities are legally required to address
sexual assault and sexual harassment under Title IX, the federal civil
rights law famous for ushering gender equality in sports but created to
protect people from gender discrimination in education writ large. And,
joining me now, Dr. Bernice Sandler, senior scholar at the Women`s Research
& Education Institute and "The New York Times" has called the Godmother of
Title IX. So, Dr. Sandler, what is the thinking behind Title IX and How
did it come about?

INSTITUTE: Title IX comes about because there was and still is a lot of
sex discrimination against women and sometimes also against men. It is a
civil rights law and it is sexual assault. If the college does not handle
it, they are violating a civil rights law.

And, we do not often think of Title IX as a civil rights law, but this
is like a constitutional right. When Title IX was passed, there was no
word for sexual assault or acquaintance rape. We did not have a word for
sexual harassment, so it took a while after Title IX was passed in 1972
until people realized that it covers sexual assault and institutions have a
federal obligation to be sure they deal with it in a very fair manner and
in a prompt way and with equity.

HAYES: So, in 1972, this was passed, federal institutions --
education institutions of higher learning have a federal requirement under
this as a matter of civil rights law to deal with sexual assault and sexual
harassment on their campuses or face being in violation of Title IX, is
that right?

DR. SANDLER: That is right. Except, when Title IX was passed, we did
not have a word for acquaintance rape.

HAYES: Right.

DR. SANDLER: We did not have a word for sexual harassments, either.
Those words come about in 1975, 1976 and the Supreme Court has said sexual
harassment is a form of sex discrimination and sexual harassment is on a
spectrum and the end of the spectrum is sexual assault and rape.

HAYES: So, am I correct in understanding that this sort of internal
procedures that colleges and universities have come up with to deal with
allegations of sexual assault or sexual harassments on their campuses are
products of the Title IX revolution, essentially. To stay in compliance
with Title IX, they have to deal with these internally in some fashion.

DR. SANDLER: Yes, they have an obligation to prevent as well as deal
with problems when they occur. That is required by law. It is not
optional. And, many of the schools, unfortunately, are concerned about
their reputation. I mean do you want to send your daughter to a school
where there has been a rape? Well, tell me of a school that has had none
and I will say there is no reporting there, because we know somewhere
between 1 and 5 percent of all college students have been sexually
assaulted or faced attempted sexual assault.

HAYES: So, given that, there are 64 colleges who are now under
investigation for their handling of sexual assaults under Title IX. Given
what we have seen in terms of how colleges and universities have developed
procedures for handling this, what is your assessment of the success of
Title IX, because it seems in some ways that the procedures they put in
place to deal with Title IX compliance are not getting the job done.

DR. SANDLER: The procedures that they are putting in place are mainly
very bad. They are not prepared to handle it. They handle it as under
school disciplinary, judicial reviews in the college, and not seeing it as
a civil rights violation. They are also concerned about the reputation.

And, that has been a real problem because it is better for the school,
better with, quotes, "around it," better for the school if there is no --
if there are no sexual assaults on campus. So, the school is controlling
the problem and should be controlling it, but they have to do it in a fair
and equitable way, which very few are if any.

HAYES: Yes. It seems like there is a lot of room -- tremendous
amount of room for improvement. Dr. Bernice Sandler, godmother of Title
IX. Thank you so much for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.

DR. SANDLER: Thank you.

HAYES: That is "All In" for this evening. A very happy Bastille Day
to all of you and a very anniversary to you, babe. I love you. All right,
the "Rachel Maddow Show" starts right now with Steve Kornacki filling in.
Good evening, Steve.


Copyright 2014 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>