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All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, August 1st, 2014

Read the transcript from the Friday show

August 1, 2014

Guest: Mo Brooks, Chris Van Hollen, Lorella Praeli, David-Seth Kirshner,
Danny Gold, Liza Goitein, Mike Pesca, Goldie Taylor


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.

to actually solve the problem. This is a message bill.

HAYES: The president slams House Republican immigration efforts as
the GOP races to get something passed before summer recess.

REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: I think everybody can be proud of our
country if they could have heard what went on in that room.

HAYES: Then, president on the CIA.

OBAMA: We tortured some folks.

HAYES: And the CIA admits to spying on the Senate.

Plus, the rabbi who suggested voting for Hamas makes you a combatant -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are complicit. And you are not a civilian

HAYES: He joins us tonight.

Then, the death of a man put in a chokehold by the NYPD is ruled a

And the controversy over a two-game suspension for a football player
who attacked his girlfriend.

RAY RICE, BALTIMORE RAVENS: That`s not me. My action was

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

And you`re looking live at the House floor where at this hour, the
Republican majority in the House of Representatives is moving forward with
symbolic border crisis legislation that is guaranteed to go nowhere and
accomplish nothing. This goes after a full day of backlash from all
quarters against House Republicans for bungling even a meager attempt to
address the humanitarian situation at the border. The Republican caucus
unable to coalesce around a legislative solution today caught hell from all
sides, not the least of whom was President Obama.


OBAMA: But instead of working together, instead of focusing on the 80
percent where there is agreement between Democrats and Republicans, between
the administration and Congress, House Republicans, as we speak, are trying
to pass the most extreme and unworkable versions of a bill that they
already know is going nowhere. That can`t pass the Senate, and that if it
were to pass Senate, I would veto. They know it.

This is a message bill that they couldn`t quite pull off yesterday so
they made it a little more extreme so maybe they can pass it today. Just
so they can check a box before they`re leaving town for a month.


HAYES: The president also took the opportunity to address a
Republican caucus that is both suing him for extending time on part of the
health care law and grumbling and threatening him on his executive actions
both passed and promised to address immigration.


OBAMA: Keep in mind that just a few days earlier, they voted to sue
me for acting on my own. And then when they couldn`t pass the bill
yesterday, they put out a statement suggesting I should act on my own.


HAYES: When House Republicans couldn`t pass a bill yesterday, they
drew the wrath of none other than Texas Governor Rick Perry, a self-
appointed Republican voice on immigration who`s fleeting attempt of
compassion on the issue cost him badly in the 2012 Republican primaries.
Yesterday, Perry said in a statement in part, "It`s beyond belief Congress
is abandoning its post while our border crisis continues to create
humanitarian suffering and criminal aliens still represent a clear threat
to our citizens and nation."

Today, Republicans worked behind doors to alter the supplemental bill
to add funds for National Guard troops that would reimburse Governor Rick
Perry`s administration for his deployment of the Texas National Guard and
sharpen a second bill, one that would limit President Obama`s executive
authority more strictly, a bill that would attempt to defund any further
DACA applications for children bought into the U.S. by undocumented parents
and who have continuously resided here since June 2007.

Meanwhile, House Democratic leadership united with Hispanic Caucus to
offer a few thoughts.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a bill that has no chance of passing the
Senate or being signed into law.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s about writing a bill that is even meaner
than the one they tried to pass yesterday.

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D), TEXAS: Probably the nation that allows
without condemnation people in ski masks with AK-47s to go down to the
border and terrorize young children.

REP. BETO O`ROURKE (D), TEXAS: When I think they`ve succeeded in
scaring themselves because what but fear could cause you to remove due
process for kids who are fleeing horrific violence.

REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: The way you treat one of us today
is the way you have treated all of us. And we will remember that.


HAYES: Dozens of Democrats also lined up on the floor of the House
today in a form of protest to one by one ask simply for a vote on the
bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill that Speaker Boehner won`t
bring to a vote.


REP. KATHY CASTOR (D), FLORIDA: Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent
to bring HR-15, a bipartisan reform bill to properly address the
humanitarian crisis at the border.


HAYES: But hard line anti-immigration Republican Congressman Steve
King, one of the dozen House Republicans who met with Senator Ted Cruz on
the eve of this debacle today seemed quite pleased with where the
Republican negotiation was headed. "The changes brought into this were
ones I developed and advocated for over the past few years. It`s like I
ordered it off the menu."

Joining me now is Congressman Mo Brooks, Republican from Alabama.

Congressman, my understanding is you view the president`s deferred
action order of 2012 as illegitimate. Is that correct?


HAYES: Do you support deporting the 500,000 children who have used
deferred action?

BROOKS: And more.

Let me be real clear: there`s a real stark contrast between the
Democrats and Republicans on this particular issue. To Republicans, border
security means protecting our border, enforcing immigration laws we have
now which, by the way, is the most generous in the world in terms of the
number of legal immigrants that come into America. That in turn you have
to enforce the law with respect to illegal immigrants.

HAYES: So I just want to --

BROOKS: To the Democrats, the border security problem is really a
question where they come up with the money for the welcome mats and happy
meals. That`s a big contrast.

HAYES: OK. Are there happy meals in the legislation?

BROOKS: There`s everything the president can give away, food, free
food, free clothing, free shelter, free health care, free education, he`s
doing so. And then he wonders after he`s enticed these illegal alien
children to America how in the world do they come and why do they come?

HAYES: They should not be --

BROOKS: The president of the United States is enticing them.

HAYES: They should not be fed and clothed?

BROOKS: They should not be fed and clothed for years which apparently
is the direction the president wants to take us. Rather, those children
should be taken care of here and expeditiously reunited with their families
back home.

HAYES: So, let`s be clear here. We`re talking about two distinct
issues getting run together. This humanitarian crisis and Central American
kids showing up as unaccompanied minors.

But I`m talking about those 500,000 children who are brought here by
their parents. They did not make the decision. They have taken advantage
of the president`s deferred action. You want to see them deported, the
500,000 children?

BROOKS: The question is, who do you focus on? I`m focused on
American families.

HAYES: No, no, the question I`m asking you, the question I`m asking
you --

BROOKS: I`ll answer your question if you let me. I`ll answer your
question if you let me.


BROOKS: But there`s a predicate to it. I focus on American families
who have lost their jobs, had their income suppressed.

There was a recent study that just came out that showed over the last
14 years, the American economy created 5.6 million net jobs in a 16-65 age
bracket. You know how many Americans got? Minus 127,000.

HAYES: Congressman --

BROOKS: That`s what I focus on.

HAYES: OK, Congressman.

BROOKS: And the folks you`re wanting to leave the United States of
America are the very people who have taken jobs from American citizens.

HAYES: Congressman, you`re filibustering. Yes or no?

BROOKS: I said yes.

HAYES: Yes. Do you want to see them deported?

BROOKS: Absolutely. I want to protect jobs and incomes for American
citizens. When our economy is strong enough, then we can bring more
immigrants into our country.

HAYES: My next question, there are between --

BROOKS: Right now, our economy is anemic and it`s hurting Americans
to bring in this illegal alien competition, taking jobs from Americans.

HAYES: There are between 11 million and 12 million undocumented
immigrants in the U.S.

BROOKS: Actually more than that. But go ahead.

HAYES: Would you like to see all of them deported?

BROOKS: I would like to see every single law breaker made to obey
American law. The Pew Hispanic Center --

HAYES: You would like to see them deported?

BROOKS: There are 8 million jobs in America held by illegal aliens.
That`s 8 million jobs taken from American citizens.

HAYES: You would like to see the 8 million deported?

BROOKS: I want to protect American families. That`s what I`m --


HAYES: Yes or no? You would like to see them deported?

BROOKS: That`s what I`m for, if that`s what`s necessary to protect
American families and jobs.

HAYES: That`s a yes, Congressman.

BROOKS: Yes, if that`s what`s necessary to protect American jobs,

HAYES: Congressman Mo Brooks, I appreciate it, sir.

It is worth noting that Senate version of comprehensive immigration
reform is a bipartisan bill which passed in June of last year, and which if
allowed a vote in House might very well pass with bipartisan support, even
if it did fail to get a majority of the Republican caucus.

Joining me now, Congressman Chris Van Hollen, Democrat from Maryland.

Congressman, your reaction to what your colleague just said. He is on
the record saying he wants to see those 500,000 people who used DACA
deported and would like to see the 8 million people who have jobs
undocumented immigrants deported.

How widespread do you think that is in the Republican caucus?

REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D), MARYLAND: Well, Chris, I don`t know how
widespread it is, but I know that`s what`s driving the caucus. Because
last night, you already had a very bad bill that punished kids and did not
solve the problem.

What happened is a number of members of the House Republican caucus
met with Senator Ted Cruz and all of a sudden, they rolled the speaker,
Speaker Boehner, and came up with this even more extreme version which as
you just heard is intended not to deal so much with the issue at the border
and the DACA removal bill, but to say to people who have been here for a
long period of time who came here as children through no fault of their
own, some of whom have served in our armed forces that, guess what? We
want to deport you. We`re going to prohibit any money from being used to
allow for your renewal.

That -- that just meant that the far right trumped here once again,
and that`s obviously not a bipartisan solution, the kind of thing people
would like.

HAYES: Is Congressman Steven King writing the immigration policy for
the caucus at this point?

VAN HOLLEN: Oh, there`s no doubt about it. I mean, you`ve got this
group of members, and other Republican members may come up to you and
quietly say, you know, these guys are going to far, but at the end of the
day, the guys who are going too far are the ones who are driving the House
Republican caucus. And this is not where the American public is.

I should say, Chris, in addition, when it comes to the issue of the
2008 law that was designed to try and protect kids who have been the
victims of sex trafficking --


VAN HOLLEN: -- they have radically weakened that law.

HAYES: Let me stop you there for one second. I want to explain to
people, we`ve been very focused on this. The provision of the 2008 law
which provides some due process protections, if you come as an
unaccompanied minor from a country other than Canada or Mexico, that
applies to these kids. Republicans want to basically get rid of those due
process predictions or dramatically weaken them.

The White House at first seemed open to it. Now it seems like they`re
opposed to it. You`re opposed to it, Nancy Pelosi is opposed to it and the
House Democratic caucus is opposed to it.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, that`s right.

And they did a couple things today. The original proposal was to say,
let`s apply the Mexico standard to everybody. As you know, that had been a
tougher standard of proof for kids. But they actually weakened that
standard as well.

So, if you`re a border security guard, and you`re dealing with a 7-
year-old who you do not think has the capacity to make their case as to why
they should stay because they may have been a victim of abuse, even if as a
border security guard, you think that young person doesn`t have the
capacity to make that judgments, you`ve got to deport them, under that

HAYES: Right.

VAN HOLLEN: So they have actually not just weakened -- they`ve not
just gone back to what is called the Mexico standard. They then weakened
that standard for every child in the world who may be coming to the United
States as a victim of abuse. And so, there may have been rational and
reasonable ways to address this issue. But once again, in a negotiation
between far right and the far, far right, the Ted Cruzes won.

HAYES: Congressman Chris Van Hollen, thank you for your time tonight.

VAN HOLLEN: Thank you.

HAYES: Joining me now, Lorella Praeli, director of advocacy and
policy for United We Dream. She played a key role in the Obama
administration in initiating DACA. She is, herself, a DREAMer.

Lorella, how are you as someone who has real skin in this game who is
subject to these laws -- are you getting whiplash, the fact the Republican
party two years after losing the election where it looked like they might
support comprehensive immigration reform is now coalescing around a deport
people like you platform?

LORELLA PRAELI, UNITED WE DREAM: Yes, I mean, Chris, I am just
shocked at what`s happening right now. People say Republicans keep coming
back to the Mitt Romney losing strategy.

And they`re wrong, because Mitt Romney was for self-deportation and
Republicans in 2014 find themselves advocating for mass deportation. They
are calling for the deportation of my sister, they`re calling for the
deportation of my mother and for the deportations of 500,000 DREAMers who
have the deferred action program. They have protection from deportation.

So, Chris, every Republican who`s running for office in 2014 needs to
answer this question. And every Republican running for the Oval Office in
2016 must answer this. Do they support these House bills?

HAYES: Right.

PRAELI: Do they want to repeal DACA? I mean, this is where we find
ourselves in today.

HAYES: I mean, that is why I persisted in trying to get Congressman
Brooks on the record about whether he favors a deportation of people like
yourself and whether he faces mass deportation of he says the 8 million
immigrants who hold jobs who are not here documented.

That seems a widely -- that is a widely held view as far as I can
understand it, in the Republican Party, and if not widely held, it`s not
been widely repudiated.

PRAELI: I mean, we`re wondering where the champions? Where are all
the Republicans who are coming out saying, we must do a comprehensive
immigration reform --

HAYES: What about Marco Rubio?

PRAELI: They`re all voting for this.

HAYES: Marco Rubio voted for a comprehensive reform in the Senate.
He is supporting Ted Cruz`s call to repeal DACA. What do you have to say
to Marco Rubio?

PRAELI: I mean, the truth is Marco Rubio has been flip-flopping on
this issue for a long time and this is nothing new. You know? And after
the 2012 election, we saw Republicans kind of rushing to change their tone
and their rhetoric on immigration and we`ve seen them change.

They have lurched farther to right. They`re alienating Latinos. This
does not poll well with the community.

I mean, they`re really saying you don`t belong here. Your family
doesn`t belong here, we`re going to vote on it, take a vote on it. They
may think it plays well for the 2014s. It does not play well. And they
really won`t see the inside of the White House again.

HAYES: And this -- we should say, just the prelude for the president
to announce further executive action which he has basically promised. What
do you think that`s going to look like?

PRAELI: I think it`s going to be big, Chris. I mean, we have been
fighting for a long time for protection for our parents. My mother, her
name is Sheila Praeli (ph), and she`s been here for 16 years in the United
States, contributing and she has raised me to be who I am today. And that
is why I fight.

I think that we`re talking about millions of people. We`re talking
about 6 million-plus people. The president has said that he`s going to
come out and that he`s going to have to act because Congress has failed to
do so.

The truth is, Congress could have taken up an immigration bill and put
and solved this with a permanent solution.


PRAELI: They decided not to.

HAYES: People --

PRAELI: And we can`t afford -- yes.

HAYES: People don`t understand how massive a fight this is going to
be coming up right around the bend when the president announces this.

Lorella Praeli from United We Dream -- thank you.

PRAELI: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: All right. We`re continuing to watch events unfold on the
House floor. The vote on final passage of the GOP border bill has begun.
We`ll bring you the results as soon as we get them.

Also tonight, it`s a huge news day in Gaza, in the war. Deeply
troubling argument also making the rounds that Palestinian civilians in
Gaza are to blame for the death and violence they`re facing. I`ll talk to
someone who made that argument, which I called morally odious, ahead.


HAYES: A watershed moment I think this week in how our society views
domestic violence. How it happened, ahead.


HAYES: Violence rages in Gaza today on a day when calm had been
expected. A 72-hour humanitarian cease-fire began this morning at 8:00
a.m. local time. It lasted less than two hours.

At around 9:30 a.m., according to the IDF, Palestinian militants
attacked a group of Israeli soldiers conducting anti-tunnel operation
outside the town of Rafah, killing two Israeli soldiers and apparently
capturing a third, 23-year-old Second Lieutenant Hadar Goldin.

Hamas` armed wing said tonight that they do not have the missing
Israeli soldier and all the militants involved in the operation were
killed. Earlier today, they denied violating the cease-fire.

Israel responded with the attack with heavy bombardment of Rafah,
killing 60 people and wounding at least 350 according to the Gaza health
ministry, and a total of 160 Palestinians were killed in Gaza today
according to the health ministry.

Two Israeli soldiers were killed, according to the IDF. Meanwhile,
Hamas fired several rockets into Israel.

Earlier today, the president addressed all this. He reiterated the
United States` support of Israelis right to defend itself and called for
immediate, unconditional release of the soldier who was thought at the time
to be alive. Right now, it is not clear if he is alive or dead.

After calling for the IDF soldier`s release, the president reiterated
the importance of limiting civilian casualties.


OBAMA: We`ve also been clear that innocent civilians in Gaza caught
in the crossfire have to weigh on our conscience and we have to do more to
protect them.


HAYES: To date, the war has killed 1,600 Palestinians, 70 percent to
80 percent are estimated to be civilians, 63 Israeli soldiers have been
killed and three Israeli civilians.

Not everyone shares the president`s feeling on Palestinian civilian
casualties. Today, Lindsey Graham rebuked the administration for
expressing excessive concern about the Palestinian death toll.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Final thought, please no
more urging Israel to do what they`re already doing. No more messages from
this administration or any political leader in the United States urging
Israel to be more cautious and to do more to limit civilian casualties. I
know you`re well-meaning when you say that, but Israel gets it.


HAYES: Graham hit the administration for statements on civilian
casualties. But in the face of staggering civilian accounts, there`s an
even uglier defense of Israel actions has been growing in prominence
recently. Last night, Ann Coulter dabbled in it when lamenting the border
situation in the U.S.


ANN COULTER: We need a Netanyahu here. Can you imagine all these --
I mean, sometimes Palestinian kids get killed. That`s because they are --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their government --

COULTER: They`re associated with a terrorist organization that is
harming Israel.


HAYES: It`s not just Ann Coulter making that argument, essentially
that there are no civilians in Gaza.

Last week, "The Wall Street Journal" published an op-ed by Thane
Rosenbaum, saying, quote, "On some basic level, you forfeit your right to
be called civilians when you freely elect members of a terrorist
organization as statesman." Shortly after that, Rabbi David-Seth Kirshner,
president of the New York Board of Rabbis, speaking at a stand with Israel
rally attended by New York Senator Chuck Schumer, made a similar argument.


are part of election process that asks for a terrorist organization, but
proclaims in word and in deed that their primary objective is to destroy
their neighboring country, and not to build schools or commerce or jobs,
you are complicit and you are not a civilian casualty.


HAYES: Joining me is Rabbi David-Seth Kirshner, president of the New
York Board of Rabbis, and rabbi at Temple Emanuel. And Danny Gold, a
correspondent for Vice News, who just returned from reporting in Gaza, and
we should note, this interview was recorded before sundown to the rabbi
could observe Shabbat.

I don`t want you to get in trouble with people in your temple.

KIRSHNER: I appreciate that.

HAYES: So, I saw this, this got written up, these comments, and I
found this morally odious in the extreme. I called it that. And I was
going to do a commentary and we reached out to you to see if you clarified.
I think you felt like you`d been taken out of context. You issued a
clarification. You talked about the fact you decried the loss of life and
murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir in east Jerusalem.

But you didn`t back off the central point, you didn`t back off the
point that there`s complicity, the category of civilian doesn`t quite fit
people that took part of an election process that elected Hamas.

KIRSHNER: Chris, I would say to you the real problem at hand here is
the nature of the terror we`re against. When I say we, I`m talking about
in Israel, and I think it`s the same for all Western cultures. We`re
talking about a civilian population that is walking around with AK-47s.
We`re talking about people in a charter that calls openly --

HAYES: We know all that. Look, this is the thing. You can talk for
the next eight hours about how terrible Hamas is. You can talk about the
charter which caused Israel`s annihilation. You can talk about --

KIRSHNER: For Jews everywhere. Not just Israel.

HAYES: OK, stipulated. Stipulated. We are talking about civilians,
and the distinction between combatants and civilians is one of the most
morally important convictions in the later half of the 20th century. To
erode that like in the rally strikes me as deeply dangerous.

KIRSHNER: I was, Chris, I was in Israel just a few days ago. And
when I was in Israel, I was with my small children. I have a 7-year-old
and a 10-year-old, and rockets started flying at us in Jerusalem and Tel
Aviv. We`re civilians.

HAYES: Right, exactly, that is why Hamas is labeled a terrorist
organization because they do not recognize that distinction.

KIRSHNER: That is correct. When the --

HAYES: So why do you not recognize the distinction?

KIRSHNER: Because the qualitative difference, I take my children and
put them into a bomb shelter to protect them instead of using them as

HAYES: No, the argument you made -- Danny, you were just there. What
do you make of this?

DANNY GOLD, VICE NEWS: I can assure that many of the people in Gaza
are doing the best they can to protect their children and they`re running
out of options. You know, I spent time with families, with people who had
fled Shaja`ia where there was extremely fierce fighting to Gaza City, near

HAYES: They were trying to get out of the way, listening to the

GOLD: One of the men, if you watch our video, as you can see, the
apartment he took his family to, to stay away from was hit as well. They
were able to get out, no one was hurt. But, you know, people -- there`s a
sort of misrepresentation that everyone in Gaza is basically trying to put
their kids at risk for the benefit of Hamas.

HAYES: We hear that all the time.

GOLD: It`s not true at all.

KIRSHNER: I would not say, Danny, that I think everyone is trying to
put their kids at risk. I think when you support a government that calls
for terrorism against its neighbor, that calls for its annihilation, when
you are setting up shop next to a sofa, launching rockets, you cannot claim
innocence. You cannot say --

HAYES: Those two things -- you`re sticking by this. You are saying,
support -- you`re saying taking part in the election process, elected
Hamas. By the way, they did not get a majority of the vote in that
election which spanned both the West Bank and Gaza, we should note. It was
also many years ago. They haven`t had one since, we should note.

At the time, the Hamas election was represented by none other than the
president of the United States, George W. Bush as a good thing basically.
There`s something healthy about a system that does that, talking about the
election being a ratification of the belief that Fatah was incompetent and
corrupt and not of a Hamas charter.

Despite all that, you are still sticking to the idea that a woman
walking around who`s 30 years old in Gaza is somehow complicit if she voted
in that election?

KIRSHNER: Absolutely not. No way in the essence of what I shared in
a rally in New Jersey and New York, or tonight on your show, do I express
that whatsoever. I decry in that same rally the loss of innocent life. A
mother`s tears taste the same whether they`re crying for three Israeli boys


KIRSHNER: -- that were kidnapped and killed.

HAYES: Do you take back what you said?

KIRSHNER: It`s not a measure of taking back. It`s taken out of
context. You`re taking six words and using them as a weapon as opposed to
the essence of which they were said. The essence is incredibly clear.

HAYES: We are watching --

KIRSHNER: We call for a cessation. We want obviously peace.

But what would you do? You have young children. What would you do if
someone were shooting at you and your child? You would protect your child.
You would never, never --

HAYES: But there is a distinction --

KIRSHNER: -- allow that child to be shot. Than holding a child as a
safety, as a shield.

HAYES: But is that happening? Are people holding children as safety

GOLD: Not from what I saw. I can`t speak for the entire length of
the Gaza Strip, but I saw people trying to protect their children as much
as possible. Whether that involved going to U.N. schools, going to Shifa
hospital or taking them as far away from the fighting zones, they were
going the best they can.

I can`t doubt that some people can`t do much. I don`t doubt that some
people ignored warnings or stayed in areas they were told to get out from.
But I don`t think anyone I spoke to would happily put their child at risk.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. Hamas, support for Hamas, in Gaza, do
you think this war has increased support for Hamas in Gaza, or decreased --

GOLD: Increased it a tremendous amount. Basically, from what I was
told, people were a little fed up with Hamas before this.

But when you have, you know, another army, an outside army, attacking
you, what are you going to do? Even if you don`t like the people who are
defending you, you`re going to support them. It`s simple human nature.

HAYES: Right, the problem here --

KIRSHNER: The first time in history, you have Egypt, Saudi Arabia,
and other countries, Arab in nature, Muslim in nature, supporting Israel
and not Hamas.

HAYES: You have the Egyptian government --

KIRSHNER: Even the Palestinian Authority.

HAYES: You have the Egyptian government that massacred 1,000 people
in a day, that have 800 people they sentenced to death that was part of the
coup that got rid of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is, of course, allied
with Hamas, of course, they don`t support Hamas. It`s nothing to brag
about that the al Sisi government is on your side when the government
itself has been ruthless to what they`ve done to internal dissent in Egypt.

KIRSHNER: But, Chris, how could we defend Hamas? Would you sit on
your show and defend al Qaeda?

HAYES: I`m not defending Hamas.

KIRSHNER: Would you defend Boko Haram? These are people that are
asking for the annihilation of another group, genocidal in nature.

HAYES: My point is, as this goes on, we see civilians, real human
beings, these are real mothers, fathers, and children.

KIRSHNER: Real people.

HAYES: Yes. There is nothing more dangerous to me than -- I`ve seen
it. It was "The Wall Street Journal," Ann Coulter making that offhanded
comment. This idea that somehow those folks and civilians -- they`re kind
of civilians with an asterisk. Distinction between civilian and combatant
is one of the foundations of the moral progression we`ve made in the laws
and wars in this century. Would you agree?

KIRSHNER: I categorically disagree with what Ann Coulter had to say.

HAYES: I`ll take that.

KIRSHNER: But my point is a clear one. If you`re celebrating that
kind of charter, if you`re celebrating --

HAYES: It doesn`t matter.

KIRSHNER: -- death in a murder, you can`t do it. You know you`re --
that is illegal.

HAYES: You are still a civilian.

KIRSHNER: When you`re wearing an AK-47 and jeans you not a civilian.
When you allow Hamas into your living room, you`re not a civilian. You
forfeit those rights.

HAYES: Rabbi Kirshner, we have to get out of here before sundown,
from New York Board of Rabbis.

And Danny Gold from Vice News, who did amazing work in Gaza. You
should check out all this dispatches at Vice News.

President Obama said today he still stands by his CIA chief John
Brennan even though it turns out the CIA was indeed spying on the Senate
and some senators were calling for Brennan to be fired. That story is


HAYES: All right. We are following breaking news from Washington
tonight. The vote for final passage of the GOP`s border supplemental bill
is now over. Right now the vote is still being counted. We will bring you
the results as soon as they come in.

Meanwhile, today, a simmering constitutional crisis boiled over. The
president forced to address calls for the head of the CIA to resign. This
started back in March when Senator Dianne Feinstein came out with a
blockbuster accusation, all right?

She alleged the CIA had been spying on computers being used by
staffers of the senate intelligence committee, staffers working on a report
on torture committed by the CIA under President George W. Bush.

The CIA swatted away the allegations of snooping and in turn accused
the senate staffers of wrongdoing, alleging the staffers had taken
unauthorized documents while conducting their investigation. CIA Director
John Brennan, meanwhile, said that those alleging the CIA spied on the
senate would be proven wrong in the end.


JOHN BRENNAN, DIRECTOR OF THE CIA: As far as the allegations of, you
know, CIA hacking into, you know, senate computers, nothing can be further
from the truth. We would not do that. I mean, that is -- that is just
beyond the, you know, scope of reason.


HAYES: "Beyond the scope of reason. Nothing could be further from
the truth. We would never do that." Guess what we found out yesterday?
We found out the CIA was, in fact, spying on the senate. Agency admitted
that an internal probe found that CIA officers secretly monitored the
congressional committee charged with supervising its activities.

In case it is not clear, this is a very big deal. The senate has
oversight responsibility to make sure the CIA does not get out of control.
And, when the senate tried to exercise said oversight, the CIA spied on
them and tried to interfere with their investigation. Members of the
senate are livid about this. Yesterday, two senate democrats, Mark Udall
and Martin Heinrich called on Brennan to resign.

These are members of president`s own party saying this. At President
Obama`s press conference today, Chuck Todd asked the president if he still
stands by Brennan. The president backed his CIA chief, but he also in a
remarkable turn of phrase acknowledged exactly what the CIA did under his


in John Brennan. Even before I came into office, I was very clear that in
the immediate aftermath of 9/11, we did some things that were wrong. We
did a whole lot of things that were right, but we tortured some folks.


HAYES: Joining me now, Liza Goitein, co-director of the Liberty and
National Security Program for the Brennan Center for Justice. OK. I
cannot believe they thought they were going to get away with this. Someone
breaks into the CIA, spies on the senate staffers tasked with overseeing a
report about the CIA torturing.

When they are caught, they lie and say they did not do it. They lie
and accuse the senate staffers of improper conduct. They go before
everyone. And, then, it turns out they were lying and now I guarantee you
this, no one is going to pay for this.

FOR THE BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE: Well, I mean, this is an agency that
has operated with impunity and with very lax oversight for a long time. It
is really gotten used to that mode of operation. You have to wonder if
maybe the agency is a bit out of control.

I mean they operated a torture program in secret prisons across the
world. They lied about it about whether or not it had any benefits. They
destroyed the evidence, the videotapes of the interrogations. They
interfered with a congressional investigation. They spied on their
overseers and then they tried to have the committee staff thrown in jail.
So, I guess it is hard to be surprised at this point.

HAYES: Would you have just talked about in any other context with
anyone else doing it would be obstruction of justice, absolutely
unquestionably? I mean just start with the fact they destroyed the tapes.
But, every single thing you said is just textbook obstruction of justice in
any other situation. A politician being investigated for corruption. A
business person being investigated for fraud. A drug dealing ring being
investigated for drugs. If you did these things, you would go to jail for
obstruction of justice.

GOITEIN: It is the culture of impunity that I was talking about
before and extends to a number of difference activities that the CIA has
been doing starting with the very reason why all of this came about in the
first place, which is the torture program. I mean, today we heard
President Obama say, "You know, we tortured some folks." You know?
"Shucks. We tortured some folks."

But right after that, he said that we should not be too sanctimonious
about it because these people were under a lot of pressure. We had just
been attacked. We were at war. And, of course, all of this is true. But,
more crimes are always committed during war.

HAYES: Yes. Definitely.

GOITEIN: That is what makes them war crimes. Exactly. And, that is
not an excuse. The convention against torture is very clear that there is
no exception. So, I think the statements by president -- I am glad he is
calling it what it is. It was torture. But, the statement about being
sanctimonious about it to me is very threatening to the rule of law.

HAYES: Yes. And, the reason that there has been this crazy tug-of-
war between the senate select intelligence committee on intelligence and
the CIA is precisely because this is going to be the definitive document.
Now here is the -- I love this twist. So, they finally get this thing.
They have gone back and forth on this. They are being spied on for years,
the CIA has delayed this thing. They have to vet it.

A preliminary -- This is Feinstein is statement today. "A
preliminary review of report indicates there have been significant
redactions. We need additional time to understand the basis for these
redactions and determine their justification. Therefore, the report will
be held until further notice and released when that process is complete."
Oh, big surprise, the CIA over-redacted the report on their own torture,
which they do not want anyone to hold them accountable for.

GOITEIN: Right. I mean what we are seeing is a trend where the
government, the executive branch, really feels that it is entitled to any
and all information about private American citizens while increasingly
private American citizens are told that they have no right to any
information about what their government is doing. And, that is exactly
backwards. There is no reason why this torture report should not be made
public. These are techniques that we have not going to do again. There is
no national security within the justification.

HAYES: Quickly. Brennan, should go? Yes?


GOITEIN: That is a longer story. Ask me some another time.

HAYES: Interesting. All right. I say, yes. Liza Goitien from the
Brennan Center. We have an update on the following news, we are following
from Washington tonight. The republican border supplemental has officially
passed 223 to 189. Just some context, this border crisis legislation will
have no policy impact.

It is guaranteed to go nowhere and will not accomplish anything.
Now, the house will start debating the republican bill to defund the DACA.
That vote should happen closer to 10:00 P.M. Eastern time tonight.

All right. The New York City Medical examiner`s report today is back
on the death of Eric Garner. The man seen in this video being put into a
choke hold by police. What the medical examiner`s office found, next.


HAYES: Today, the New York City Medical examiner`s office has ruled
the death of 43-year-old Eric Garner a homicide. Eric Garner is this man
seen in this video from July 17th. Two plain clothed police officers
approach him after allegations; he was selling untaxed cigarettes. That
was the crime he was accused of.

After a long conversation, police take him to the ground. And, one
officer can be seen apparently applying a choke hold. You can see it right
there. Garner can be heard repeatedly saying, "I cannot breathe. I cannot
breathe. I cannot breathe." According to the medical examiner`s office,
it was that choke hold and compression of Garner`s chest and positioning on
the ground while being restrained by police that killed him.

The autopsy accounts pre-existing health conditions including asthma
as factors, the primary cause of his death. The story and the video is
understandably unleashed a fire storm in New York City and nationwide, and
led to a meeting this week between Bill De Blasio, Police Commissioner Bill
Bratton and the head of the National Action Network and MSNBC host,
Reverend Al Sharpton.

In light of today`s ruling, Commissioner Bratton says the NYPD will
continue to cooperate with the district attorney investigating the case and
Mayor De Blasio released a statement pledging to quote, "Ensure a fair and
justified outcome," and saying, quote, "We all have a responsibility to
work together to heal the wounds from decades of mistrust and create a
culture where the police department and the communities they protect
respect each other. And, that is a responsibility that Commissioner
Bratton and I take very seriously. I said that we will make change and we
will." Everyone will be watching the mayor very closely to see how he
delivers on that promise of change.



was something that should have never happened, and, you know, like I said,
I have to pay for that for the rest of my life because my daughter is very
intelligent, you know? And, she is going to want to know what happened
because she is going to press Google one day and just how fast this message
is going to go worldwide. That is how fast my daughter is going to be able
to pick up the phone and Google her father`s name and the first thing that
is going to come up is not how many touchdowns I scored. It is going to
come up about what happened.


HAYES: In July 1995, "Sports Illustrated" ran a special report
highlighting tales of domestic violence involving high-profile athletes.
It is titled "Sports Dirty Secret." When scarcely a week passes without an
athlete being accused of domestic violence, it is not longer possible to
look the other way.

On cases -- to me, I still remember when I read that article was that
of longtime Boston Celtic Robert Parish, who his wife told the magazine,
threw her down the stairs of their house and then as she screamed for help,
kicked her as she stumbled out the front door.

And, in the nearly 20 years since that report, it is very hard to
argue things have gotten much better. It is a constant stream of violence,
domestic violence and domestic incidents and very little serious
repercussion. But, perhaps, what we have seen over the last week is a kind
of tipping point. Let me explain.

In February this year, Baltimore Ravens Running Back, the man you
just saw, Ray Rice was seen on video dragging his unconscious fianc‚e, now
wife, out of an elevator. Rice allegedly rendered her unconscious by
punching her in the face. And, all likelihood, he will avoid jail time
because he pleaded not guilty to a third-degree charge of aggravated
assault and avoided trial by being accepted into a pretrial intervention

But, on Monday, the NFL suspended Rice for two games, when the league
starts back up in the fall. Many observers were quick to question whether
the suspension was too lenient, especially considered that Ray Rice`s new
Ravens teammate, Will Hill, has been given a six-game suspension this year
for testing positive for marijuana, which means the NFL, Marijuana is three
times worse than punching your wife in the face and knocking her out.

Now, three U.S. senators have called on the NFL to, quote,
"Reconsider the length of Mr. Rice`s suspension and develop policies for
dealing with at least similar incidents in the future. But, likelihood the
NFL actually doing any of that, we will talk about that, next.


HAYES: We are back and joining me now is Mike Pesca, host of "Slates"
and daily podcast of "The Geist" and contributor of the NPR and MSNBC
contributor, Goldie Taylor, also managing editor of Fault Lines GPS.
Goldie, I wanted to read this to you, this little dispatch from
After this all happened, in his first appearance in training camp, he got a
standing ovation, this is Ray Rice. And, people knew about it gone down.
"I am wearing his jersey because he is still a good man." Added Debbie
Lindling of Baltimore. "I am happy to support Ray Rice just like he has
always supported our community." What do you do with that?

GOLDIE TAYLOR, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I am not exactly sure
what to do with it; but, I will point out, Chris, that twice that I have
talked about what happened to me, publicly, you have been the host of those
shows and so this week as I decided to talk about it again, I have spoken
about it with no one else except you. Because I think I trust the form.

But, in terms of Ray Rice and what is happening with the NFL, you
have to look and see how the NFL treated this. How did the commissioner
treat this ordeal? While Ray Rice was suspended for two games, Steven A.
Rice did not hit anybody. He talked badly about it. He was suspended for
a week.

HAYES: Right.

TAYLOR: And, so we have got to really take a hard look at how the
NFL over the years has handled the issues of domestic violence. How they
value women or do not value women in that way. In the face of, you know,
really what is happened in this country.

HAYES: Yes. See, Goldie mentions Steven A. Smith, happened on ESPN,
where smith basically -- I guess we should play the sound because it is
part of the whole controversy. Here is Steven A. Smith`s very tortured
nonsense that got him in trouble. Take a listen.


STEVEN A. SMITH: What I have tried to employ the female members of my
family, some of who you all met and talked to and what have you is that,
again, this is what I have done this all my life. Let`s make sure we do
not do anything to provoke wrong actions.

There is never any excuse to put your hands on a woman, but domestic
violence or, you know, with whatever the case may be, men putting their
hands on women. It is obviously a very real, real issue in our society and
I think that just talking about what guys should not do, we got to also
make sure that you can do your part to do whatever you can do to make -- to
try to make sure it does not happen.


HAYES: OK. Smith apologized. He got suspended for a week from
ESPN. I actually think that was useful in blowing this issue up. I think
the combination of the outrage of the suspension and the outrage over that
has meant that, like, I have been hearing talk radio, sports radio, like,
sport meat head dudes going nuts about -- I think it is a real turning

MIKE PESCA, HOST OF "SLATE": Yes. And, that was, like, a nonsense
word salad.


PESCA: That is what Smith was hired to do, but you are right. I
have heard -- it is not always the case that they speak about it perfectly.
Yet, the sentiment is just a thousand to one against Roger Goodell. I
think what is really interesting about the suspension, the ESPN suspension.
They acted like a corporation that cared about their customers. You know,
it took them a couple days.

HAYES: Right.

PESCA: And, they teased them and said, "Hey! Watch on Monday while
we suspend them." But, they did suspend them, right?


PESCA: And, Roger Goodell spent a week and said nothing, did not say
one word. And, he had a little press conference today where he kind of
gave you nothing and it all leads me to believe that he firmly thinks this
will blow over.


PESCA: We make so much money. It is going to blow over.

HAYES: And, that Goldie, that to me strikes me as a crucial point
here. It is like, do they pay any price for this other than outrage?

TAYLOR: You know, I have said that the sanction has less to do with
the actual offense, and that has to do with any corporation, whether it be
the NFL or ESPN or ABC or your local McDonalds. It has to do with the
revenue at risk that the sanction happens to be than really what the
offense is. It is about what offends your audience. The NFL felt safe
enough about its audience to issue that kind of very light sanction and
think that they could get away with it. The end did not believe that.

HAYES: That is absolutely a great point. That is a calculation about
what you can get away with your audience and that is a calculation about
how much your audience cares.

PESCA: And, the fact they did not do anything after it was so
abundantly clear that it was too light. I mean if you look at other
corporations that make missteps in the beginning, BP and the oil spill,
they go back and they try to do what they can. Mary Bara and GM, but Roger
Goodell is doing nothing.

HAYES: Let`s remember, Goodell here is judging jury, right? This is
under the code conduct, the NFL. Not enough to simply avoid being found
guilty for crime, instead as employed the NFL. You are held to a higher
standard. Specifics of discipline and responsible are based on the nature
of the incident, actual threat -- He could do anything. He could get
suspended for a full season.

PESCA: Yes. And, in the past he --

HAYES: He has.

PESCA: He is a hanging judge.


PESCA: He gave prior five games for -- in college getting
impermissible tattoos. He wants to be known as the guy who meets out
justice more than anyone. What is the one case he shows mercy? This case.
Where he interviews both parties in the same room, which is a terrible way
to get to the truth of domestic abuse.

HAYES: Goldie, do you think, though, it does strike me we have such a
long way to go in this issue, but this was a big moment this week in how it
is perceived.

TAYLOR: You know, it is a big moment, but not the big one that I
think that we expected it to be. I think we thought we would be having a
healthy conversation about violence against women and, frankly, about
violence against men. There are so many men in this country who suffer in
shame and silence and to not report violence against them.

And, so -- but, at the end of the day if we are really going to talk
about this and have a healthy conversation, this is about the vitriol that
is being lobbed against people like me and others who has suffered domestic

HAYES: Mike Pesca from "Slate" and MSNBC Contributor Goldie Taylor,
thank you both. OK. So, tonight, is the third time that my daughter,
Ryan, has come to the studio to see the show and the first time we happen
to be showing a panda at the zoo. I think it was the end of the shutdown
and it is all she talked about for the next weeks. So, the next time she
requested specifically a moo cow. Well, tonight`s animal request is an
elephant, so here you go, Ryan.


HAYES: Two elephants because I am nothing but a doting father. All
right, that is "All In" for this evening. "The Rachel Maddow Show" starts
now with Steve Kornacki sitting in for Rachel. Good evening, Steve.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC CO-HOST: Good evening, Chris. I do not think
we can top that, but we are going to try.

HAYES: Can top that.


KORNACKI: Have a great weekend.

HAYES: You too.


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