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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, September 25, 2014

Read the transcript from the Thursday show

September 25, 2014

Guest: Ayman Mohyeldin, Fmr. Gov. Howard Dean, Laura Murphy, Rev. Al
Sharpton, Mike Pesca, Peter Moskos, Vince Warren


Tonight on "All In."


ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The work remains to be done, but
our list of accomplishments is real.


HAYES (voice-over): The end of an era. The surprising resignation of
the attorney general, as Washington gears up for the confirmation fight of
a lifetime. Then, is there an ISIS plot to hit American subways? U.S.
Officials knocked down the Iraqi reports. Plus, disturbing video of a
routine traffic stop gone very, very wrong.


license please?

Get out of the car. Get out of the car.



HAYES (voice-over): Tonight, a former police officer joins us to
break down how this happened. Then, the NFL scandal spreads to the
worldwide leader.


calls me or emails me and says, I am in trouble for anything I say about
Roger Goodell, because if one person says that to me, I am going public.


HAYES (voice-over): The latest from Bill Simmons versus ESPN.


SIMMONS: Please, call me and say I am in trouble. I dare you.


HAYES (voice-over): "All In" starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I am Chris Hayes. It is a
decision that might have arrived a year sooner if the Obama Administration
caved to the criticism of its harshest critic. Today, President Obama
announced the resignation of U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder in a packed
eastern ceremony that pointedly celebrated the attorney general`s many

President Obama praised Attorney General Holder for overseeing the
prosecution of hundreds of terror cases in American courts, the Justice
Department 60 cases against financial institution and for a wide range of
civil rights issues like Holder`s tackling of unfair sentencing disparities
and mandatory minimum sentences that have disproportionately affecting
people of color.


I took office, the overall crime rate and the overall incarceration rate
have gone down by about 10 percent. He has been relentless against the tax
on the voting rights act, because no citizen, including our service
members, should have to jump through hoops to exercise their most
fundamental right.

And, several years ago, he recommended that our government stop
defending the defense of marriage act. A decision that was vindicated by
the Supreme Court and opened the door to federal recognition of same-sex
marriage and federal benefits for same-sex couples.


HAYES: Holder is expected to remain in his post until successors
confirmed, but that successor has not yet been named. If Holder serves
until the end of this year, he will be the third longest serving Attorney
General in American history. Notably, he is the nation`s first black
Attorney General. The highest law enforcement position in the land, and
has been widely praised for his focus on civil rights and voting rights.
Something Holder, himself, singled out today as well as his close
relationship with the President.


HOLDER: In good times and in bad, through things personal and things
professional, you have been there for me. I am proud to call you my
friend. Over the last six years, our administration, your administration
has made historic gains in realizing the principles of the founding
documents and fought to protect the most sacred of American rights. The
right to vote.


HAYES: Despite widespread reporting that Holder had considered
resigning before now, today`s news came as a surprise when House Minority
Leader Nancy Pelosi informed a town hall of the congressional black caucus


that the attorney general will be submitting his resignation to the
President. So, let us salute him, once again, for all of his work.


HAYES: Joining me now, Reverend Al Sharpton, President of the
National Action Network, host of "Politics Nation" which airs here at 6:00
P.M. here on MSNBC. And, Rev. talk about Eric Holder`s civil right legacy.
He really has focused -- The civil rights division of this department of
justice has been one of the high points of this administration. How do you
think that legacy will be understood?

that the legacy will be understood as having raised the bar higher than it
has ever been raised. You must remember that Eric Holder, in many ways,
single-handedly went in after the Supreme Court gutted section 5 of the
voting rights act and went into those states and put lawsuits down that
literally protected the right to vote, that Martin Luther King and others
are being applauded in history for gaining.

So, you cannot at all minimize the impact of what he did around voting
rights. Opening up this whole question of disparities and sentencing, all
with blacks and browns who are getting sentenced longer. Telling U.S.
attorneys as the attorney general that they must be mindful of the way they
are handling cases, who they are targeting with cases. What he has done in
terms of not challenging same-sex marriage. What he has done in terms of

So, in the broad civil rights community, I do not think that you could
find an attorney general that has any record anywhere near his in terms of
civil rights. You must remember, even Bobby Kennedy, who is the closest
they compare Eric Holder to. He never went south to a city that had a
civil rights accusation. Eric holder went to Ferguson, Missouri in the
myths of all attention, himself.

So, yes, we can raise questions that we wish could have, should have,
would have been done. But, there is no one standing anywhere near the
statue of Eric Holder in the levels of civil rights and voting rights and
those areas that you are actually about, not as the attorney general in the
history of this country as far as I can see.

HAYES: The attorney general has always put an interesting role,
rhetorically, also in terms of discussions of race. Very early on, he gave
this famous speech where he said we are a nation of cowards.

And, I have heard more than one person compare him to this comedy
sketch by Key & Peele, which you might be familiar with, in which is about
how Barack Obama has to be so calm, so discipline, so composed. He cannot
get angry.

He is the first black President, and so he has an angered translator
named Luther. I am going to play a little clip because it is the only way
to understand the joke and then I want to get your response to it. Take a


November, I want each and every one of you to ask yourselves what has
changed in the last four years?

TRANSLATOR: Who killed Osama Bin Laden?

PEELE, AS PRES. OBAMA: What has my administration accomplished?

KEY, AS ANGERED TRANSLATOR: Did we accomplish America`s biggest
enemy. Check. Did that. Boom.


HAYES: There was always a sense that Eric Holder could say things
about race, specifically the President could not and pushed the
conversation about race in a pretty incredible way.

REV. SHARPTON: Well, I mean, you know, the comedy of it is whatever
it is. But, I think that if you look at the different roles, the President
is the President. And, he operates as the chief executive.

Eric Holder operated as the chief and still will until his successor
has confirmed as the chief law enforcement officer. So, in many ways, when
I would hear those comparisons about President Obama and Eric Holder --
well, when I was a kid, they said the same thing about President Kennedy
and Bobby Kennedy.

HAYES: That is right.

REV. SHARPTON: That Bob Kennedy would do things that his brother
really wanted to do or maybe because he could execute. That was his job.
That was not around race. It was around something else. I think Eric
Holder did things against terrorism that the President did not verbalize.

I think it was easy for them to limit it to race, but there were many
things Eric Holder did aggressively. Dealing with the financial
institutions, the lawsuits, holding them accountable. He did many things
aggressively that would not be within the purview of the presidency.

So, I think that they always would use the comedy. But, I think the
joke was on them. I think that President Obama and Eric Holder was always
smarter than those that did satire on them.

HAYES: And, finally Rev. the National Action Network, the
organization put out a statement talking about consulting with the Obama
Administration about his replacing. You are close to Eric Holder. Can you
tell me more about that?

REV. SHARPTON: The National Urban League, the NAACP, Black Women`s
Roundtable and I were in the middle of a press conference with the families
from Ferguson, Michael Brown`s family and Staten Island, Eric Garner`s.

And, we said we would send to the White House and we called the office
of engagement that we always deal with, saying we wanted input as I am sure
labor groups and women groups that all kinds of advocacy groups would want
to. Right away, the right wing says, "We are going to help select a new
attorney general, which is absurd on his face. The president makes that

HAYES: Right.

SHARPTON: But, I am sure that all of us would want to weigh in and
give ideas. We do not have a candidate. We want to raise concerns that we
hope the new successor will have to deal with as the president considers
who that is. So, we are not trying to pick anybody. We have no one in
mind. We have in mind the things we advocated that Eric Holder was, in our
opinion, moving forward on; that whoever is chosen, that that be on the

And, again, we do that as advocacy groups. But, just like the right
wing decided that, you know, Eric Holder was guilty of everything under the
son, but being a good attorney general. They tried to act as though we are
part of a decision-making process. That is so ludicrous. I would not
waste time refuting at any longer.

HAYES: Reverend Al Sharpton, thank you very much.

REV. SHARPTON: Thank you.

HAYES: Republicans were predictably elated by today`s announcement
issuing statements that can fairly be sampled by the following, House
Speaker John Boehner, "Eric Holder`s resignation is long overdue." Senator
Ted Cruz, "Sadly, he is prune to be most partisan attorney general in our

And, from Congressman Darrell Issa, the chair of the house oversight
government reform committee, who is the main force behind Holder being held
in contempt of congress for allegedly not submitting sufficient documents
on the fast and furious gun tracking program. There is this, "Attorney
General Eric Holder abused his officer and failed to uphold the values of
our constitution." Holder has been a high-profile target of republicans
for years.


have read you what your department promised and it is adequate. And, I
realized that contempt is not a big deal to our attorney general, but it is
important that we have proper oversight.

HOLDER: You do not go there, buddy. You do not want to go there, OK?

REP. GOHMERT: I do not want to go there?


REP. GOHMERT: About the contempt?

HOLDER: You should not assume that, that is not a big deal to me. I
am sure there must have been a good reason why only the to and from parts
were --

to see the details. Mr. Attorney General --


REP. ISSA: Knowing the to and from --

HOLDER: That is what you typically do. No, I am not going to stop
talking now. You characterized as something those --

REP. ISSA: Mr. Chairman, would you inform the witness as to the rules
of this committee.

HOLDER: -- That is inappropriate and is too consistent with the way
in which you conduct yourself as a member of congress. It is unacceptable
and it is shameful.

REP. ISSA: Mr. Attorney general, do you take seriously a subpoena
signed by the clerk of the house?

HOLDER: Of course.

attorney general would give us the documents. I would rather have the
documents than have this vote on contempt of congress.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: The grand jury that is convened is going
to most likely come back with an indictment of Eric Holder. This is
fascinating. So, you really do believe this will be an indictment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Playing the race card, on my opinion, is
very intellectually -- person with an intellectual deficit.

the biggest race baiters in this entire country. He run that DOJ like the
black panthers did.

panthers off the hook when they were voter intimidating people.


HAYES: Joining me now, Laura Murphy, Director of the Washington
Legislative Office for the American Civil Liberties Union. And, Laura, I
know you know Eric Holder. You sort of worked in D.C. while he has been
there. Why do you think he became such a target, a consistent target, for
republicans for the conservative movement during his tenure?

because he did not want to take a lot of gruff off of people. I think he
is a man. He believes in his principles. And, he is going to stand up for
what he believes. And, if he disagrees with you, he is going to tell you.
I mean he is the kind of guy who is very quiet, peaceful person, but in a
confrontation, he is going to stand his ground.

HAYES: And, you at the ACLU, you had your own confrontation with him.
You guys put out a statement today. I thought was interesting. You talked
about during his tenure, DOJ approved -- you praised voting rights and
civil rights and you said, though during his tenure DOJ approved the drone
killings of an American far away from any battlefield, approved the NSA`s
mass surveillance programs, failed to prosecute any of the Bush
Administration torturers and presided over more leak prosecutions and all
previous justice departments combined. What has that relationship been
like with the DOJ with the attorney general when you are pressing him on
these issues, suing him often in court?

MURPHY: Well, it has been a very amicable relationship, and he has
been very accessible. And, we have agreed to disagree. He is not thin-
skinned. And, we have had to criticize him mainly in the area of national
security. But, we celebrate him for revitalizing the civil rights
division. The strong and historic decision he took in the defensive
marriage case, the Windsor case where the ACLU was co-counsel.

And after that case was decided, he brought all of the civil rights
groups and LGBT groups in and said, "Look, how can we extend the
protections of marriage to same-sex couples?" And, he consistently moved
forward to do that. So, he has been a very thoughtful attorney general and
a very engaging attorney general. I am going to miss him sorely.

HAYES: Laura Murphy, the ACLU, thank you very much. Much more ahead.


HAYES: There was a really odd back and forth today between the U.S.
and Iraqi Governments over a supposed new ISIS plot against Americans.
Here is what happened. Iraqi Prime Minister, Haider al-Abadi, whose
government is supposed to usher in a new era of inclusion in rule of law
and who just met with President Obama yesterday here in New York; announced
to the press this morning that ISIS fighters captured by the Iraqis had
revealed a plot to attack subway systems in Paris and the United States.

But, then, in a briefing with reporters, FBI Director James Comey said
the terrorist threat, the U.S. is, quote, "About the same today as it was
last week." While law enforcement and intelligence sources told NBC News,
"There is no evidence of any such plot." They said it is odd the prime
minister would announce a threat publicly rather than going through the
normal, private channels.

And, on the whole, one senior intelligence official said, the report
is viewed as, quote, "Total bunk." Meanwhile, the FBI Director also said,
the U.S. believes, it has identified the masked man seen in ISIS videos
depicting the beheadings of two American journalists.

And, he told reporters he is, quote, "Not confident at all that air
strikes had eliminated the threat posed by the Khorasan group," whose name
referring to a third century territory that includes parts of Iran, Turks
and Afghanistan may have been made up by the U.S. Intelligence community.

You may recall that threat was initially described as imminent, but
later just aspirational, which seem quite different. And, in the video
released today by VICE News, a young man identified as a Canadian currently
fighting with ISIS in Iraq says, they are actively plotting attacks inside
the U.S.


will make some attacks in New York soon with Allah`s permission. A lot of
brothers there are mobilizing right now, in the west.

SHANE SMITH, VICE NEWS FOUNDER: And, what are they mobilizing for?

SHIRDON: Mobilizing for a brilliant attack, my friend.


HAYES: All of which leaves your average citizen rather confused and
bewildered about what is real and how we separate actual threats from fear
mongering or Jihadi trash talk. Joining me now, Ayman Mohyeldin, NBC News
Foreign Correspondent.

It is really hard to figure out right now. So, let us start with this
Iraq thing. It is so bizarre because a body comes out and says, "We have
foiled this attack." And, then the U.S. government is like, "What are you
talking about? We do not have any evidence of this of this." How do we
make sense of what happened there?

some Iraqi officials are trying to walk back those comments. They were
first of all, in various, as you mentioned, unprofessional way that the
leader of Iraq would announce them to the media before. Now, something
like this if it has serious credibility the first thing, they are going to
do pick up and talk to their counterparts, in Langley or the FBI or
Interpol or anywhere.

HAYES: And, presumably -- let me just stop you there for a moment.
Presumably, there is a high level of security coordination right now
between the National Security Apparatus and the U.S. Government and the
National Security Apparatus and the Iraqi government.

MOHYELDIN: I would say that the U.S. would probably know about that
intelligence before some Iraqi officials, and they would know that they
have captured ISIS Officials in that interrogation process that took place,
which is certainly be made accessible to U.S. Intelligence officials very
early on, if the U.S. is investing as much as it is in trying to fight ISIS
inside Iraq.

What is strange about this is that he met with the President
yesterday. So, if he did not have the intelligence yesterday, he had the
intelligence in the span of 12, 13, 14 hours. I think it is one of those
situations where I think the prime minister was perhaps trying to say,
"Look. There is a serious threat." They may have heard about something
but it may not be as necessarily be as credible.

But, also, there is a little bit of paranoia in this country. There
is a little bit of hysteria that we, as journalists, do not take it -- look
at this with a bit of a grain of salt. I think we took the statement and
then all of a sudden we started with a panic and everybody in the U.S.
like, "Oh my God. Is this real? How can you say this?"

HAYES: And, part of that has to do with the fact that there is -- you
know, not only are there -- you get news about a possibility of terror
threat whether it is imminent or aspirational or someone talked to someone
once and drawing on a piece of paper, right?


HAYES: But, then it is like, well, there is one thing coming from the
U.S. Government and then there is British Government or French Government
or Australia government or the Iraqi government, right?


HAYES: And, who is to say when the Iraqi Prime Minister gets up, he
thought that must be credible. And, then the other Director of FBI
literally within an hour, I think, or several hours, saying, no.

MOHYELDIN: Yes. Exactly. And, I think there has to be -- you have
to approach this with the mindset of the kind of tone that it was coming
out of. It was a comment that was made off the cuff, so to speak from what
I understand. It was not substantiated with any specific details.

The statement that is coming out of the Iraqi Government today is much
more subdued. They are saying that there is in their eyes a credible
threat. They are assessing it. The veracity of it is still being
questioned. That is going to be shared with the appropriate counterparts.

HAYES: And, we have seen that. We should say, this is not just the
Iraqi Government. We have seen this in the past in the U.S. Government
where a plot is announced, it looks terrifying. I remember there are these
guys down in Florida.


HAYES: Who were part of some quasi-Jihadi cult that were going to
blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago.


HAYES: And, then once you have to look from the details, like these
were losers who are never going to get anywhere close to what they are
going to do. I want to bring into the conversation of former governor of
Vermont and former Chairman of the DNC, Howard Dean.

And, Howard, the reason why I wanted to have you on was, you know, you
rose to prominent politically back in 2003 to 2004, in an atmosphere of
tremendous fear, anxiety about terrorism. This constant thrum threat. And
you said some things that were difficult and politically courageous to say
in that moment.

And, I wonder how you watching media the way we are covering now in a
moment that almost feel similar to that 2002, 2003 -- how you evaluate
consuming this information about threats.

HOWARD DEAN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF VERMONT: Well, first of all, we have
a very different president. The last time this happens with the President
and Vice President were inflaming the threat as much as they could because
they had every intention of going to Iraq with or without any good reason
to do so. And, we now see a President who is actually not anxious to
engage is doing so as a matter of defending the country because he has to.

We also see it in Iraq that is completely disintegrated. I do not
have a lot of disagreements with this president`s foreign policy. I think
he has done a great job. But, there are two issues I have a disagreement
with. One, Iraq is a free country. We should recognize that. The Iraqi
government, itself, is pretty much of a disaster. It is better that Maliki
is gone. But, we are not going to be able to work with these folks. Our
money ought to be on the Kurds to do the best that they can.

And, the second is there are 2800 unarmed Iranian decedents in Iraq
that we promised to free. We have not done anything about that. We
promised them about ten years ago that we would support them and we would -
- Now, I am not advocating arming them, but they need to get out of there.
And, we promised in writing, that we will get them out of them and we have
not done that. And, the State Department and the U.N. have not kept their
end of the bargain, how hard as they may or may have not tried.

HAYES: How do you think -- when you think about the administration
and this one being different and the Bush Administration turned on how it
is dealing with threats. I thought there is sort of two different ways
politicians can deal with this. One is to lean into it and we have seen
ads being run about ISIS is going to come over the border and people trying
to use that Scott Brown ad.

I thought this Bill De Blasio tweet today was pretty good. "We are
convinced New Yorkers are safe. We are convinced the people should go
about their normal routine." Which in some places the most important
message is sent, which is, you know, everyone needs to go about life and
be, you know, love the people you love and be a good free American citizen
and not be sent into a spiral panic.

DEAN: Right. People like Scott Brown is completely irresponsible.
Some of these are talking about ISIS and Ebola coming over the southern

HAYES: Right.

DEAN: I mean if they are not crazy, they are certainly irresponsible.
And, they are ought not to be elected. I do not think they will be. Now,
what we need is level headed leadership. That President Obama is
supplying. I do think he is exaggerating. I think he is level headed. I
think in a certain point there is an equilibrium here.

I do have confidence in our intelligence agencies, although I do not
like the extent of the spy program and I think it ought to be throttled
back some. But, I do think this President is doing a very, very good job
being level headed, thoughtful, and approaching this problem and doing what
he needs to be done. We do need to be engaged in the Middle East.

We do not need to have troops on the ground. But, we do need to be
doing bombing runs or there will be problems associated with ISIS attacking
us. So, they clearly mean to attack us. I have very great confidence in
both our intelligence services and our armed services to keep them at bay
and I think with we will.

HAYES: One of the things we have learned throughout this since 9/11
is intentions and capacity are two different things and that is the big
question, right? Where there is intentions and capacity. Ayman Mohyeldin
and Former Governor Howard Dean, thank you both.

All right, there is breaking news in the case of NFL star Ray Rice.
The Associated Press reporting tonight, a law enforcement official says he
sent a copy of that infamous video from inside the elevator to the NFL,
more specifically, to the attention of the head of NFL security. NFL is
once again in denial mode. And, more on the fallout from that to come.


HAYES: Breaking news tonight. Law enforcement official telling the
Associate Press, he sent that infamous video showing Ray Rice knocking his
wife unconscious inside an elevator, while the NFL has maintained it did
not see until released publicly to the attention of, wait for it, the NFL`s
security chief.

That report comes in the wake of a decision by ESPN to suspend one of
its biggest stars for coming out and saying what the network`s own
reporting has seemed to indicate, that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has
not told the truth about when he learned what that video showed.

On Friday, posted a blockbuster story reporting that four
sources indicates that Rice told Goodell early on that he had hit his wife
and knocked her out in a now famous incident in Atlantic City Casino
elevator that initially netted Rice a suspension of just two games from the

But, as ESPN`s story pointed out, Goodell said that Rice initially
provided an ambiguous account of what happened in the elevator. And, the
NFL went an extended Rice`s suspension after public outcry, claimed that
Rice`s account was, quote, "Starkly different from what could be seen on
the video.

In other words, ESPN have four sources that suggested that Roger
Goodell was not telling the truth. And, so columnist Bill Simmons, one of
the biggest names in the ESPN, Editor-In-Chief of the network`s very
successful Grantland website, executive producer of its critically-
acclaimed 30 for 30 documentary project, basically just came out and said
exactly that on his podcast.


is being made out of that, in fact that they knew about the tape and they
knew what was on it. Goodell, if he did not know what was on that tape, he
is a liar. I am just saying it. He is lying. I think that dude is lying.

If you put him up on a lie detector test, that guy would fail. And,
for all these people who pretend they did not know is such (EXPLICIT
WORDS). It really is. It is such (EXPLICIT WORDS). And for him to go in
that press conference and pretend otherwise, I was so insulted.


HAYES: That was pretty strong. And, Bill Simmons seemed to know it
because he then dared ESPN to come down on him.


SIMMONS: I really hope somebody calls me or emails me and says, I am
in trouble for anything I say about Roger Goodell, because if one person
says that to me, I am going public. You leave me alone. The Commissioner
is a liar and I get to talk about that on my broadcast. Please, call me
and say I am in trouble. I dare you.


HAYES: You will never guess what happened next. Yesterday, ESPN took
Bill Simmons up on that dare. Network pulled the podcast and announced it
was suspending Simmons saying, quote, "Every employee must be accountable
to ESPN. And, those engaged in our editorial operations must also operate
with ESPN`s journalistic standards. We worked hard to ensure our recent
NFL coverage has met that criteria. Bill Simmons did not meet those
obligations in a recent podcast and as a result, we have suspended him for
three weeks."

ESPN made this announcement one day after its own ombudsman had
praised the journalistic muscle of Simmons and others in the network in
covering the Rice story, saying that coverage was ESPN`s finest hour during
his tenure. Almost immediately after the suspension, Bill Simmons
defenders took to social media, the hash tag free Simmons began turning on

We reached out to Simmons to come on the show tonight, he did not
respond. And, ESPN declined our invitation for someone from the network to
come on to discuss the suspension. The network, it should be noted, is in
the middle of a $15 billion deal with the NFL to broadcast Monday Night
Football for 2021.

Joining me now, Mike PesCa, host of Slate`s daily podcast, "The Gist,"
and contributor to NPR and Slate`s sports podcast, "Hang Up And Listen."
So a bunch of you were pointing out last night, immediately, the

All right. Steve A. Smith, basically, said "Well, after a long thing,
maybe she kind of deserved it in some way or he got one week." Ray Rice,
the person who actually punched out his wife got two weeks, initially.


HAYES: Bill Simmons for calling Roger Goodell a liar, three weeks.

PESCA: And, so, I would say this. The martyrdom -- the paid
martyrdom of Bill Simmons maybe all be punished so severely. Bill Simmons
wanted this. He got this. He gets to mark himself as a guy in opposition
to the very powerful --

HAYES: Yes. I mean --

PESCA: -- it was still undeserved that it still exposes ESPN as -- I
do not know hypocrites, but it is clear where their interest lies. Their
journalistic interest and their business interest.

HAYES: So, this has been the question from the beginning. This whole
thing is broken is, -- OK. ESPN has this weird role. They are the
worldwide leader that they are both the number one sports journalism
outlet. And, also, the number sport broadcasters, who partner with the
leagues that they are covering all the time and it has created tremendous
conflicts. And, I think everyone watching this has been watching, thinking
how are they going to play this? And, so far, they have done a pretty good

PESCA: Well, they have. I mean they have Don Van Natta, who is a
great reporter. And, he does great stories on Roger Goodell and Roger
Goodell will not give him any comments, OK? They have Bill Simmons, who is
paid to be a columnist. Right? A columnist gives his opinion.

HAYES: Right.

PESCA: That was a strong opinion. It was not a slanderous opinion.
He said, I think Roger Goodell is a liar.

HAYES: Yes. I think he is lying about it.

PESCA: Yes. You said that you would be fine, even though NBC has
business interest with the NFL.

HAYES: Right.

PESCA: It really does show like when they canceled, they did a big
investigative series where they paired with PBS, league of denial about
concussions. And, then ESPN pulled the plug on their involvement --

HAYES: At the last minute, more or less.

PESCA: And, that was pretty bad. And, that just very much shows that
while we would like to be known as good journalism, $15 billion is $15
billion. And, we know what the number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 shows on TVR.

HAYES: Right. And, that is the question, right? I mean you got this
-- It looks like this tide was turning. In terms of journalism of the NFL
in the run of the scan and this feels to me like also a marker for ESPN.


HAYES: It is not just Simmons. It is also like, "Hey, everybody.
Remember what will happen if you step too far out of line."

PESCA: Yes. And, I think that the boss has probably said, "Actually,
what we are doing is journalistic. Actually, we want to send the message
to the newsroom." But, they are so touchy about Roger Goodell in the way
they would be if he was criticizing some random coach or some random G.M.
or saying that Doc Rivers deserves to get fired or Doc Rivers was a liar.

This is the best thing that I have thought about this and that I have
heard about this. And, it has to do with how the press handled the
financial crisis. There are people who are reporters who report because
they want access and there are people who want accountability.

And, for the most part, all of the reporting that ESPN does with the
NFL is about access. Hey, I know who is going to start. I know who is
going to be on the second on the depth chart. And, the accountability part
it is this big with ESPN. They do just enough, so that we do not say, oh,
you are totally ignoring -- exactly.

HAYES: So, that you think is -- that is basically what that equation
has maintained in this, because I do not know if I would agree. I do feel
like ESPN has been surprisingly aggressive about this story. After the
Bisciotti -- the owner of Baltimore Ravens, got up and said that your story
is garbage. They had Don Van Natta on, on their air and said, no, it is

PESCA: Yes. They had their first person on the air who is Jane
McManus, who is female writer on the NFL, who has done great stuff with Fox
Sports 1, who is also a broadcast partner. And, the guy they had on was
the speech writer who has worked with Goodell in the past. So, compared to
Fox Sports 1, ESPN -- but, it is just really going to show you that when
there is so much money at stake, it is hard to be a fair and account-driven
media news organization.

HAYES: Right.

PESCA: Your broadcast partner, first.

HAYES: So, this brings us back around, right? To the is Roger
Goodell lying? Which is the question.


HAYES: And, this new AP account, you have the source -- the law
enforcement source. They are saying, "I mailed it anonymously to Jeff
Miller because he is their head of security. I attached a note saying Ray
Rice elevator video. You have to see. It is terrible. I provided a
number for a disposable cell phone and asked for confirmation that it was
received. I knew there was a possibility Mr. Miller may not get the video.
But, I hoped it would land in the right hands." Again, we have one AP
report. It looks like from the same source. This is even more definitive.


HAYES: Because, he said, this is the guy I sent it to.

PESCA: And, the phrase that is terrible appears in both reports.
That was possible that they did not pass it to Roger Goodell as sort of
there is a firewall. And, I would be a little surprised if the
investigation shows or proves that Roger Goodell saw it, because why would
Roger Goodell authorize an investigation that would cost him his job.

HAYES: That is a good point. And, also why would -- there are
certain things people at the top of organizations that make that much money
want to see and do not want to see.


HAYES: And, everyone underneath them understands whose job it is.

PESCA: Under layers understand if his boss wants to see it or not --
if I see this, you screwed up.

HAYES: Exactly. Mike Pesca of "The Gist" which you should be
listening to everyday. Thank you very much.

PESCA: Thank you.

HAYES: The police dash cam video everyone is talking about today,


HAYES: Shocking police dash cam video. We are going to play you the
whole thing, next.


HAYES: So, we have got a story out of South Carolina that, at first
telling, looks routine. Agents from the South Carolina law enforcement
division announced yesterday, they would be charging a man named, Sean
Groubert with, quote, "Felony aggravated assault carrying a maximum of 20
years in prison."

And, it is for an incident in which Groubert shot another man named
Levar Jones several times at close range in a gas station parking lot on
September 4th, and prosecutor say for no reason. But, what makes the story
so news worthy is that the person who did the shooting was a state trooper.

And, the person he shot appeared to be reaching for his license after
said state trooper asked the man to get his license. Or, as the arrest
warrant reads, the defendant, a South Carolina State Trooper, at the time
the incident did, without justification, unlawfully shoot Lavar Jones.

And, all of this -- all of it was recorded on what may possibly be the
most horrifying dash cam video I have ever seen. We are going to play you
the entire thing. It begins with now Former State Trooper Sean Groubert,
who is fired last week preparing to pull out of the gas station, where he
turns his patrol car back around, as you are seeing there.

And, the tape then shows Levar Jones getting out of an SUV. Watch and
listen carefully as Groubert asks Jones for his license. Jones appears to
instinctively tap his back pocket then reaches into the truck. Groubert
yells for him to get out of the car and fires two shots. As Jones raises
his hands, Gourbert fires twice more. Watch.


license please?

Get out of the car. Get out of the car.


GROUBERT: Get on the ground! Get on the ground!

said get my license. I grabbed my license. It is right there. That is my
license. It is right there.

GROUBERT: Put your hands behind your back. Put your hands behind
your back.

JONES: What did I do?

GROUBERT: Put your hands behind your back. Put your hands behind
your back. Put your hands behind your back.

JONES: What did I do, sir?

GROUBERT: Are you hit?

JONES: I think so. I cannot feel my legs. I do not know what
happened? I just grabbed my license. Why did you -- why did you shoot me?

GROUBERT: Well, you dove head-first back into your car.

JONES: I am sorry.

GROUBERT: Then you jumped back out. I am telling you to get out of
your car.

JONES: I am sorry. I did not hear two words, sir. My license is
right there on the ground. I did not do nothing.

GROUBERT: 8-6-6, shots fired in a 10-38. I need a 10-52 out here. I
am on Broad River at the Shell Station.

JONES: Why were you pulling me over? I just pulled into --

GROUBERT: Seatbelt violation, sir.

JONES: Seatbelt? I just pulled it off right there at the corner to
pull into the gas station.

GROUBERT: Well, I got help coming to you, OK? I got help coming to

JONES: I am sorry.

GROUBERT: Just sit still. Sit still, bro. Sit still for me, OK?

JONES: Sir, I did not do anything. My wallet is right there. Yes,
dude. This (EXPLICIT WORD) just happened.

GROUBERT: Where is your ID at in here?

JONES: It is right there, on the dashboard. I drive for a medical
courier services. That is my -- that is my picture ID right there, sir.

GROUBERT: Just hang tight. Just hang tight.

JONES: Because, I do not know --

GROUBERT: Just stay right there, please. Stay right there.

JONES: He told me to get my license. I reached for my license and he
shot me.


HAYES: I am going to say the last part again, quote, "He told me to
get my license. I reached for my license and he shot me." This incident
and the tape of this incident raises so many familiar questions about the
relationship between police and the people they policed about race and
about police shootings. I want to talk about it with a former police
officer and a civil rights attorney, next.



license please?

Get out of the car. Get out of the car.


GROUBERT: Get on the ground! Get on the ground!

said get my license. I grabbed my license. It is right there. That is my
license. It is right there.

GROUBERT: Put your hands behind your back. Put your hands behind
your back.

JONES: What did I do?

GROUBERT: Put your hands behind your back. Put your hands behind
your back. Put your hands behind your back.


HAYES: It is that police shooting down in South Carolina. Joining me
now to discuss it, Peter Moskos, Former Baltimore Police Officer, now
assistant professor of Law and Political Science of John Jay College of
Criminal Justice, and Vince Warren, Executive Director for the center of
Constitutional Rights.

All right, the reason -- The video, itself, obviously is just so mind
blowing and dramatic and upsetting. And, luckily, Levar Jones lived. He
is fine. But, it also to me, there is a lot in that video that relates to
a whole bunch of different incidents we have been looking at, whether it is
Michael Brown in Ferguson and Darren Hunt in Utah, the young man with the
sword, who was shot and killed; John Crawford in Ohio in the Wal-Mart.

And, I want to start first with the decision to stop. OK? So, for a
police -- the guy is in the gas station. He is pulling out and he sees
something that makes him go back around where it was, was a seatbelt
violation. The first question there is just like, there is a lot of people
who are looking and they are like there is no way that he would have
stopped a white dude, who did not have a seatbelt violation.

PETER MOSKOS, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: I do not buy that. Why people
get stopped for seatbelt violation, too? I mean I am not going to fault
the cop for stopping a guy who was not wearing a seat belt --

HAYES: OK. But, here is something that I learned from your book.
OK? You, basically, said, "You can basically stop someone at anytime for
any reason."

MOSKOS: Well, for a legal reason, but you can always find a reason.

HAYES: Right. But, you can always find a reason. That is the point,


HAYES: The amount of discretion about who you stop like, I walk down
the street of Ferguson, Missouri with the Mayor, jaywalking in the street.
Do you think the cop is going to stop us?

RIGHTS: Yes -- No.

HAYES: I mean that is the point, right?

WARREN: This is nuts. The most important thing to note here is that
it was a seat belt violation in a gas station.

HAYES: Right. He has already parked the car, which he explains later

WARREN: Exactly. And, so, one of the issues that really kind of get
raised here is that if that person was white, if he was a white guy, would
it really be worth the investment of time to go back and check for a seat
belt violation in a gas station?

HAYES: I guess here is my question to you. Let us just take race out
of it for a second, even though I think that, obviously, looms over this
entire encounter.

MOSKOS: We will get back to it.

HAYES: And, let us just say as a police officer, when you are making
the call like I am going to go after that guy who is for jaywalking or
seatbelt violation or what we would consider, are you doing it because you
think you are going to find something else?

MOSKOS: Sometimes, it depends on the cop. And, most of the times,
no. Sometimes, absolutely yes. But, I mean here is so much --

HAYES: OK. All right. Fine. So, let us say, let us grab the cop
that stopped, although I think there is a lot in just that stop because
that is where the whole trajectory starts. If he just pulled out of that
gas station, we would not be here, right? There is a whole bunch of

Then there is the next part, right? Which is I want to seed your
license. And, Levar Jones dunks back in and he starts firing. What are
you trained to do in that moment? What is he doing that does either
complies or does not comply with one`s training?

MOSKOS: You are not trained to shoot in that situation. It is a bad
shooting. The guy went back in the car quickly, I would have been a little
bit nervous. But, then he comes back and the nervousness dissipates. That
is that. It was a horrible shooting. The problem is that the cops are
trained in the academy to develop a warrior mindset, the idea that everyone
is out there ready to ambush. We have all -- all police officers have
watched videos with situations like this where the guy comes back with a
guy and starts shooting. In truth, it does not happen very much. There is
a risk to the job and they have to deal with that.

HAYES: In training, you are played videos of a situation where
someone stopped someone and someone does like, you know, go for a gun.

MOSKOS: Yes. It has happened. But, it happens very rarely.

HAYES: But, my point being of that something that is in the mind of
officer you are saying as not just like in the mind of Darren Wilson --

MOSKOS: Constantly. And, the people that are teaching cops firearm
training tend to be the most conservative warrior ideology cops out there.
And, they are teaching cops to be paranoid and that is not a good way of

WARREN: I completely agree with that. But, we also have to look at
it from, honestly, I am bringing race back into it, the way black people
are trained by their parents and by their community to deal with police

And, here is the bigger part of this video. It does not matter what
you do. It does not matter whether you comply with the police officer. It
does not matter if you resist. It does not matter if you say, "Why are you
doing this to me." You can and will get shot, even for complying with the
police officer.

HAYES: Here is the dramatic irony here. The suddenness of his
movement to dive back into the car is the suddenness of someone trying to
comply in the fastest possible way. That is so nuts.

MOSKOS: And, then he is ordered out of the car and he complies with

HAYES: Right. He is so trying to be obedient. He is so trying to be
compliant that he is like, "Oh, no. Oh, my license." And, then he dives
back to go look for his license. Where is my license --

MOSKOS: And, then later he apologizes.

HAYES: I want to go for that last part.

WARREN: It is heartbreaking.

HAYES: That part is the thing that I think most striking to people.
The conversation they had. He is calling him sir. He is telling him where
his license is. The cop is saying, "Are you shot? --

MOSKOS: The last shot, his hands were in the air. Nothing else asked
by the cop. The last shot, his hands are up. Luckily, the cop was a bad
shot. That is the only good thing about this --

HAYES: That is the most amazing thing.

MOSKOS: That is the only good thing about this incompetent cop.

WARREN: It is the bad shot. Well, he shot him four times. And, the
last shot looked like when the hands are up. But, also let us look at what
happened afterwards. The first thing that he did was when he told him four
times to get his hand behind his back. You just shot the man four times.

Get your hands behind your back. Where is your this? Where is your
that? There is all of these orders are happening and then he realizes,
"Oh, wow!" And, calls in a 1038, which is in South Carolina, just a
routine traffic stop. The level of aggression coupled with a level of
compliance does not keep you safe in America.

HAYES: And, then the -- and I think for folks that are not aware of
living in a world where the color of your skin makes you think about police
law enforcement`s a certain way. Hearing that conversation on the ground I
think is really eye opening, because he is on the ground. He has been shot
and he is saying, "I am sorry, sir.

And, he is basically -- well, you can hear the anguish in his voice.
I did all the things I was told to do and somehow I must be at fault for
this because here I am on the ground. And, it is really -- to me it is an
incredible story.

I want to follow this case and I want to talk more at some point in
the future about how juries understand this because that is the other
question. Peter Moskos and Vince Warren, thank you gentleman, both.

MOSKOS: Thank you.

HAYES: All right we have following breaking news tonight, the NFL
crisis. A law enforcement telling the AP, he sent the video showing Ray
Rice knocking his wife unconscious inside an elevator to the attention of
the NFL Security Chief. NFL has maintained IT did not see the tape until
it was publicly released.

NFL Security Chief, Jeffrey Miller, tonight told the AP, quote, "I
unequivocally deny that I received at any time a copy of the video, and I
had not watched it until it was made public on September 8th." That is
"All In" for this evening. The "Rachel Maddow" Show starts right now.
Good evening, Rachel.


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