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The Ed Show for Wednesday, October 22nd, 2014

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

October 22, 2014

Guest: Heather Hurlburt, Clint Van Zandt, Jim McDermott, Bob Shrum,
William Barber, Mike Papantonio

ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to "The Ed
Show," live from New York. We`re two weeks away from an election, it`s the
debate season. We`ll get to all of that news later in the hour. But
tonight, we start with breaking news of multiple shootings in Canada.
Earlier today, a soldier guarding the National War memorial was shot and
killed in the Canadian capital of Ottawa. Minutes later, dozens of shots
were fired inside the halls of the Canadian parliament. This dramatic
video near the shooting was captured by a reporter.


SCHULTZ: One suspect was shot and killed by police moments ago. President
Obama addressed the shootings.


American people, our condolences to the family and to the Canadian people
as a whole. We don`t yet enough have all the information about what
motivated the shooting. We don`t yet have all the information about
whether this was part of a broader network or plan or whether this was an
individual or series of individuals who decide to take these action.

But it emphasizes I think the way in which we have to remain vigilant when
it comes to dealing with these kinds of acts of senseless violence or
terrorism. And, I pledge this always to make sure that our national
security teams are coordinating very closely, given not only as Canada, one
of our closes allies in the world but, they`re our neighbors and our
friends. Obviously there`s a lot of interaction between Canadians in the
United States where we have such a long border.


SCHULTZ: At the press conference earlier today, police in Canada would not
confirm if there was a second suspect on the loose.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there more than one guy?

CHARLES BORDELEAU, OTTAWA POLICE CHIEF: We`re still in the process of an
active operation right now. We`re treating this very seriously with the
RCMP in identifying and clearing Parliament Hill to render it safe.


SCHULTZ: Downtown Ottawa was put on lock down and police are asking the
public to report any suspicious activity. The motive of this attack is not
yet clear but it came days after Canada raised its domestic terror treat

On Monday authorities in Quebec said radicalized Muslim drove his car into
two Canadian soldiers killing one of them. Earlier this month Canada
joined the air campaign against ISIS and Iraq. Isis has not been linked to
today`s shooting in Ottawa. And the United States and Department of
Homeland Security official says law enforcement is "Monitoring the evolving
situation in Ottawa, Canada. However, at this time, there is no specific
reporting to indicate that ongoing events in Canada pose a threat hear in
the United States."

Official in Ottawa say this situation is fluid and ongoing as to for
investigation we`ll bring you any of the new breaking news when get it in
this hour.

For the discussion let me bring Heather Hurlburt who is the Program
Director for "New America", Steve Clemons with us tonight MSNBC Contributor
and editor at large of the "The Atlantic" and Clint Van Zandt NBC news
analysis and former FBI profiler.

Clint you first tonight if I may. They don`t know the motive, they don`t
know how and why and very little information coming out about this
investigation. How do you put it together?

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FMR. FBI PROFILER: Well, they`re putting together right
now Ed. They do know the name. The name has already been passed to the
FBI by Canadians. Realize that the FBI has agents assigned right there at
the capital. So, you know, shortly after the shooting there would be FBI
agent their saying, "How can we help, what can we do". As soon as the
Canadians identify this guy and we got a name already.

That name would have been past to U.S. authorities, we would have checked
every record we have, trying to identify just what you say what is the
motive, is this an individual with a mental health issue, is it PTSD issue,
is it somebody who`s radicalized. We don`t know it but by tonight we
probably will because the Canadian police authorities will be at this guy`s
house tearing through his computer, all of his property, trying to identify
who he is, why he did it and who might have helped him.

SCHULTZ: Do we know anything about the person at this point or is that
still pretty much information lock down, because there`s very little
information coming from the Canadian on this.

ZANDT: Yeah, I know a name that I have heard it sounds like a name that
could Native to Canada. But, you know, I haven`t heard that confirmed, so
obviously I don`t want to be throwing that out.


ZANDT: But it sounds like somebody there or locally realize that this --
was a not a, you know, initially if there were two or three people together
like we heard. You know, this could be a plot, and realize at Fort Hood
they thought there were multiple shooters there was one. At the Navy Yard
they thought there were three shooters there was one.

If its one, that suggest more of a mental health or maybe a self-radicalize
individual who did this as part of a group planning. But again a lone wolf
is always one of our biggest treats.

SCHULTZ: We have now gotten to a point in society where we assumed the
worst ISIS, terrorism, all of the above. We don`t know what it could be,
that`s kind of where we are right now Heather. If it were connected to
terrorism this would be viewed as low-grade treat or should I say a low-
grade attack. Is this kind of a new wave of concern that we have to be
dealing with?

we`re going to need to wait to see what actually turns out to be the case
here. You know, much as we have stereotypes about Canada, our peaceful
neighbor to the North. They do have a tradition of horrific mass killing
like we have.

There was domestic terrorism in the 70s. So, it`s really too soon to say
what it was. It`s also clear though that in the last couple of weeks there
has been a lot of Jihadi extremists Islamic sort of sounding of on the


HURLBURT: And there was this event yesterday. So, it`s clear that Canada
like the U.S. has a problem with disaffected young people turning to
political Islam, whether that has anything to do with what happened today
we just don`t know.

SCHULTZ: Steve you`re thoughts on what has unfolded today. The tightening
of the information from the Canadians, they won`t say whether there was
another shooter. If there`s another suspect, I mean if that were the case
in America we would have had law enforcement holding press conferences and
say, public we need your help.

STEVE CLEMONS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you would have law enforcement
we`d had similar kinds of cases. We recently have the gentleman that
jumped over the fence, run into the White House didn`t shoot people. But
we have incident on the capital, we`ve had other folks that were self-
radicalized that attacked airports and of course military bases. And so we
have experience with this. No matter what the case and reason is, we don`t
know that yet.

Canada doesn`t have the muscle reflexes to really process this yet. One of
the things that, you know, pumping through the Canadian media right now is
that Canada has lost its innocents. Whether or not this is a terrorist
attack or deranged person, it doesn`t matter they`re not used to someone
going up and shooting up Parliament in Ottawa.

And that`s something after 9/11 whether or not we like it or not many
towns, community, states around the United States thought through what
would be necessarily if they began dealing with some of these things on our
own soil. And so, there just been more prep here that there.

SCHULTZ: Why the tightening of information though? Why are they so -- is
this just a cultural thing or they don`t know how to handle this kind of
stuff or?

CLEMONS: Well, you know, I, you know, were both journalist in D.C. and I
have to tell you that while were -- while we maybe implicitly applauding
U.S. government official, I see when incidents happen a lot of tightening
up in America, a lot tightening up when any of these things happen. It
takes awhile for people to put the picture together. So I don`t what to
defend the Canadians...


CLEMONS: ... to much in this case but it seem to me when they don`t have
all the pieces in place, one of the thing they don`t what to do is to
unnecessarily alarm. So I get that and it`s...

SCHULTZ: Well...

CLEMONS: ... different operation.

SCHULTZ: If a terror threat Heather, in America was elevated on a Friday
and the American people didn`t find out about it until Monday. There`ll be
some pretty upset politicians.

HURLBURT: But that`s not necessarily the same thing as people were more of
less safe because of it. And I think you can view what`s going on Canada
as an implicit critique of some of the times maybe the U.S. is gone too far
the other way. You know, for example the degree of terror that there was
in communities in Boston that were locked down when there was no evidence
that anyone was anywhere near them.

So, you know, this is something...

CLEMONS: Well, during the Bush administration...

HURLBURT: ... how to get it right.

CLEMONS: ... we were constantly at high alert, I mean...


CLEMONS: ... constantly high alert, airports were treated differently, you
had airports shutdown for variety of any number of reason. We were very,
very tense nation at one time. And I think we tried that ratchet that down
under a number of Homeland Security secretaries and others to try to not
overreact everything.

But to communicate those terror concerns in a way that was constructed to
the right policies. But necessarily put that all up publicly.

SCHULTZ: Clint Van Zandt where do we draw the line on what we tell the
public when things like this happen and identifying exactly what it is. It
seems like there is a different culture here and I think you can go right
to the culture of firearms in Canada. They view things a little
differently than we do in the United States when it comes to the handling
of firearms and the ownership of it.

ZANDT: Well, you know, to that last point it`s interesting the one person
that was able to stop this guy happened to be almost a 60-year-old retired
RCMP officer who was a Sergeant-at-Arms who happen to have gun. He was the
only person between the shooter and the members of the elected members that
this guy may well have been going after. And to your first point, you
know, I can speak as an FBI agent.

The last thing you want to do is you get into a race with the media trying
to get to the shooter`s house, his relatives, his neighbors and already had
have those people interviewed by five different cable channels before you
ever talk to him. So, there is a rhymes and reasons for law enforcement to
say "Let us put these together, let us know what were dealing with and then
we`ll be glad to share it with you.

SCHULTZ: But, these low-grade attacks and I`ll ask you as I ask Heather
and Steve here. Is this something...

ZANDT: Yeah.

SCHULTZ: ... a new culture that we`re going to have to deal with, with the
way ISIS has evolved in the Middle East. Is this the new wave of terrorism
that we might be looking at and it`s a different way of having to handle it
as well?

ZANDT: Well look, we put out the alert today to the U.S. Tomb of the
Unknown Soldier.


ZANDT: We now have to guard those soldiers to guard that tomb. We`ve also
put the alert out to U.S. military recruiting station around the country
because we picked up this chatter from ISIS on the Internet saying attack
the military, attack law enforcement, use knifes, use automobiles, run over
him. With those -- with that level of threat out there we have to leaning
forward in the saddle a little bit and realize as your other two guests are
talking about, if you get this self-radicalization that can take place on
the Internet.

It can anywhere from three American teenage girls taking their passport and
flying off to Turkey as happened this week, two somebody getting into
Internet and realizing how to build a cattle bomb and setting it a long
side one of the greatest races in this country.

SCHULTZ: Well, we`ve seen violence and terrorism in this country. Timothy
McVeigh the shoe bomber. I mean all of these things really shouldn`t be
new to any of us. But where does this take us now that we see that our --
our best neighbor is getting hit with stuff like this?

HURLBURT: Yeah, Ed the things that`s important here is, I think there`s no
question that we`ve entered and era, and frankly we had enter it before
ISIS. And ISIS is now going to try hard to take credit for it. Where the
radicalized empowered individual is the sort of biggest terror threat we
faced -- we actually faced here at home.


HURLBURT: And that for, you know, I went through two train stations today
coming up here and I thought about it. I thought long and hard about it as
I walk through Union Station.

But, can those kinds of one of threats actually take down our political
system? Especially as Steve says, once you get to where you actually have
your guards armed and, you know, at least you hope...


HURLBURT: ... the White House can stop intruders. So, yes it`s a threat,
no it`s an existential threat.

SCHULTZ: And we`ve got something to respond to here we have Breaking News
right now. The United States official has confirmed the shooter is a 32-
year-old man named Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. I hope I got that name right. He
-- we have also learned that the Ottawa (ph) of Corporal Nathan Cirillo has
confirm to Canadian media outlets, it was her nephew who was shoot and
killed this morning. Reaction to this.

CLEMONS: Well, we don`t know very much about him, we have a name. There`s
a lot about his identity that we don`t know and we`re just going to have
wait and sort of see how that unfolds. But I don`t want to make just quick
reactions to his name. We don`t know enough about it.

SCHULTZ: Sure. If it was connected to ISIS I`m sure they would have said
something about her.

CLEMONS: Well, you know...

SCHULTZ: I think if it were terror group they would want the public to
know that.

CLEMONS: One of our mutual colleagues, Peter Bergen when he interviewed
Osama bin Laden in 1997 when the CIA couldn`t find him. Bin Ladin said
very clearly, my objective is to punch the United States, to make it
overreact and to bankrupt that nation. Now whether he did that or not, you
know, he didn`t, but unless he created a massive overaction, and when we
saw an institution like Al-Qaeda behave. It shows trophy targets, it
organize very sophisticated, large-scale horrific attacks.

It didn`t engage what we heard ISIS chatter talk about. Small scale
individuals doing things in here, it still scare society. But what Al-
Qaeda Inc. (ph) was doing was a very different kind of thing. And many of
us in the terrorism watch business look at that ISIS chatter frankly and
though it was rather pathetic.

So is that all they can do? Is that all they can initiate? And while real
lives are connected to that, it`s a very different thing when you look at
large-scale sophisticated attacks that we`ve been preparing for, for long

SCHULTZ: So was the Canadian Parliament attack today? Or was there a
shooting at the Canadian Parliament. We really...

HURLBURT: We don`t know.

SCHULTZ: ... we don`t know. Well tonight the Canadian Prime Minister
Stephen Harper is going to address the country. I would imagine we`ll know
a lot more when he speaks. But isn`t rather unusual that the Canadian
Prime Minister would address the entire the nation on a shooting like this.
What does that tell you?

HURLBURT: As Steve said this is something for Canada that has never
happened before. That we have had, you know, and for frankly hundreds of
years not just in the last 10 years. A series of violence incidence around
-- our presidents around our national institutions, this is something new
for Canada.

So, that why Harper is going to address the country. Harper`s going to
face a lot of the same challenges that Bush faced the day of 9/11. What do
you say, how do calm the county, how much information do you release and
you`ll recall Bush was criticized from all sides even as we were wailing

SCHULTZ: Heather Hurlburt, Steve Clemons, and also Clint Van Zandt good to
have you with us tonight.

Up next a deeper look at the implication this shooting has for security at
U.S. capitals. And of course the Congressman Jim Mcdermott will join me to
talk about that. Stay with us, another issues coming up.

We`ll be right back in the Ed Show.



out RCMP check point and security check I was prevented from going any
further and informed by an RCMP officer that there have been shooting
inside the center block of Ottawa Parliament Hill which would be like a
shooting inside your American U.S. Congressional building.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. The shootings in and around the
Parliament in Canada`s capital of Ottawa have American officials certainly
on alert. U.S. embassy in Ottawa is on lock down after the shooting.
Security measures have also been stepped up the Canadian embassy here in
New York City as precaution.

The White House says Secret Service is monitoring the situation. Capital
police in Washington say that they remain in a heightened level of
awareness. But have not made any significant adjustments to security on
Capitol Hill.

Security has been heightened at the Tombs of the Unknown Soldier at
Arlington Cemetery as precautionary measure because of Internet chatter.
U.S. military officials tell NBC News that NORAD has gone into a high alert
posture as a result of the shootings but stressed, any treat would have to
-- would have to be aviation related before they would get involved in the

The Department of Homeland Security also says it is monitoring the
situation but says there`s no specific report to indicate this morning`s
event in Canada pose a threat to anyone here in the United States.

Joining me tonight Congressman Jim Mcdermott of Washington, Congressman
there`s a lot more shootings in the United States than there in Canada.
And this maybe new but it is not new to anyone in Washington. We have seen
guards shoot before on duty back in 1998.

There have been shootings in Washington D.C. In terms of security, has the
United States had the appropriate reaction to this incident so far as you
can say?

REP. JIM MCDERMOTT, (D) WASHINGTON: Well I think the President has been
very measured in his response. Usually people -- the information we get
immediately after one of this incident turns out to be partial or incorrect
or wrong direction all together. I mean you have to look back to Timothy
McVeigh when he blew up the building in Oklahoma City, or we had two guards
killed in the Congress since I`ve been there by a young man who was trying
to bring a gun in who was mentally not balanced.

You have to wait and get the information, and I think the President, by not
getting his hair on fire is doing exactly the right thing. We don`t know
who did this, we don`t know if there`s a conspiracy or anything else. All
the speculation you`re seeing in the press is done by irresponsible people
in my view.

SCHULTZ: What effect do you think this will have on security surrounding
government buildings and officials going forward in Washington, if any at
all or is this business as usual, just a heightened alert situation?

MCDERMOTT: Well, we have a system right now where everybody goes through
it everyday and they are looking in your trunk and they`re doing all sorts
of things to make sure that they are being aware of what`s coming into the
Capital. I think that you can make it impossible for people to do anything
and keep everybody out, then you might have total security but you have no
access for anybody to come in.

So, if you`re going to have people come in as we do everyday through the
check points, you`ve got to have good guards and check what`s coming in and
we`ve done that. I feel very comfortable in Washington D.C.

SCHULTZ: I`ve been in and out of those buildings in Washington, I think
the security is tight, I think there`s a lot of vigilance taking place, how
difficult is it for security officials to balance the free access of, you
know, government buildings with the need to keep the public safe and to
keep people, elected official such as yourself safe?

MCDERMOTT: Well I think that really is the difficulty, is how do you
establish a balance between giving the people access to their government?
That is to be able to come in to the buildings and actually have meetings
with us, and at the same time protecting us. You can make it, as I say so
that we`re in an iron fortress when we go into our building, but then the
people are having a chance to come and tell us what needs to be done or
what they think is different.


MCDERMOTT: They have to send mail or an e-mail or something but they can`t
do it face to face, and it`s always much better to do it face to face.

SCHULTZ: I think there is a different way of handling information north of
the border than in the United States. And I`d like to know if a threat
level has ever been raised in the United States and the public not know
about it. I mean this was the case that there was some Internet chatter,
there was a threat level that was changed in Canada on Friday and yet the
public wasn`t told about it.

If Barack Obama were to raise the threat level in America and then not tell
the American public I can just imagine what Republicans would have to say
about it, your thoughts?

MCDERMOTT: Well, you know, walking around the campus as I have for the
last few years, you occasionally suddenly see another layer of police, and
you see people being directed away from certain areas. And you see things
happening and you know that they`ve changed something because they`re
concerned about something. I think that`s prudent, that`s what we create
the police for, to do the things to protect us.

They don`t necessarily have to tell us everything that they`ve heard or
worried about. They simply have to do their job. And I think that,
sometimes the government official like President Obama doesn`t need to tell
everybody everything he knows. He needs to deal with it in an appropriate
way using the instruments of government. And so far I`ve seen him do a
good job. I really think he`s handled this very well.

SCHULTZ: OK, Congressman I don`t mean to snipe here at all or be cynical
about the information or what has unfolded whatsoever, but as a news
consumer and someone watching this, there`s a shooting in a Canadian
building and we really don`t know what it is and now NORAD is on alert in
America. You know, to me, is that necessary in your opinion?


SCHULTZ: I mean what message does that send if NORAD, that`s when we
scramble jets to handle situations in the air and we have got NORAD on high
alert right now, yet we`re not supposed to worry about it because they`ve
got this handled on the Canadian shooting in a Canadian Parliament, what
about that?

MCDERMOTT: I have real problems with that kind of thing. You know, we`ve
just gone through the Ebola virus. That was the crisis of last week.
Everybody`s hair was on fire about Ebola and suddenly a shooting occurs in
Canada and suddenly our hair is on fire that somehow the Muslin hordes are
going to come and get us, there`s no evidence for that.

And to me it sends the wrong message to the people, especially to those
people who are inclined to do these kinds of things, it gives them
ammunition to say, well I`d better do something now before -- that kind of
stuff encourages...


MCDERMOTT: ... these kind of stuff.

SCHULTZ: And to be -- I`ll be cynical about it. When is NORAD not on high
alert? I mean that`s what they`re there for. NORAD is supposed to be on -
- nobody`s supposed to be asleep at the switch.


SCHULTZ: I just find the event that unfolded, north of the border, the way
it`s being handled and now NORAD on high posture alert, I would hope they`d
be that way all the time.

MCDERMOTT: I believe the same way, I think that is a -- I`m sad to see us
get into that.

SCHULTZ: All right, Congressman Jim McDermott of Washington good to have
you with us tonight, thank you sir.


SCHULTZ: We`ll continue to follow the shooting investigation. We`ll bring
you updates as they happen from this point on.

And later, we will turn to the race for Senate in North Carolina,
Republican challenger Thom Tillis gets into a debate with himself on the
merits of Obamacare.

Your questions coming up, Ask Ed Live next here on the Ed Show on MSNBC,
we`ll be right back.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show, appreciate the questions, I love
hearing from our viewers. Tonight on our Ask Ed Live segment, our first
question comes from the Twitter user, the ANGRYANDLIBERAL, this would be a
dandy. "How can Congressmen who don`t believe in science be trusted to
fight the spread of Ebola?"

Good question, I think you should probably ask that to Senator Marco Rubio.

Our next question is from Marilyn. Of course you can`t trust him. "If you
have the chance to vote in the Florida governor`s election, who would you
vote for?"

That would be Charlie Crist and I`ll try to be the first one in line. And
I see that the Pew Research Center has done some kind of survey that shows
that conservatives don`t trust Ed Schultz, I wear that as a badge of honor
and I want you to know that the door swings both ways, I don`t trust them.

There`s a lot more coming up on the Ed Show, stay with us.

MARY THOMPSON, CNBC MARKET WRAP: I`m Mary Thompson with your CNBC Market

The Dow erasing a modest gain to finish down triple digit, the S$P 500
sheds 14 points, the NASDAQ drops 36.

Boeing share slid more than 4 percent today despite reporting earnings and
revenue that beat estimates. And Target is hoping to lure more online
shoppers as the holiday season approaches, it`s offering free shipping on
purchases, starting today through December 28th. Lastly, consumer prices
ticked higher in September, rising just 1/10 of a percent.

That`s it from the CNBC, first in business worldwide.



THOM TILLIS, (R-NH) SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Find a way to divide and conquer
the people who are on assistance.

Repealing Obama Care is the first step.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All eyes are on this race.

Any path to a GOP take over of the Senate is likely to go through North

TILLIS: Find a way to divide and conquer the people who are on assistance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Winning that Senate race is key to moving forward.

TILLIS: Obama Care is probably the single greatest threat.

KAY HAGAN, (D-NH) SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: He said no to medicaid expansion.

TILLIS: I think we have to repeal Obamacare.

HAGAN: 500,000 people in our state would be covered.

TILLIS: We`re trending in a direction where we should consider potential
expansion of medicaid.

A potential expansion of medicaid.

I would encourage the state legislature and the Governor to consider it.


SCHULTZ: This time last year Republicans were jumping for joy at the
alleged failure that was Obamacare, you know, the rocky rollout of the provided plenty of ammunition for the Conservatives, for the
GOP especially.

One year later, tables have turned quite a bit, haven`t they? Website
problems are fixed, and according to the New England Journal of Medicine,
over 10 million people got health care coverage during Obamacare`s first
open enrollment period and it`s becoming a hot issue in the midterms.

27 states have expanded Medicaid providing care for millions of low income
Americans. This move will save hospitals over $3 billion this year. Now,
less than two weeks from the midterm election some Republicans are starting
to embrace Obamacare and they don`t even know it.

Down in North Carolina, State Speaker Thom Tillis is trailing Senator Kay
Hagan by just 3 points in a close senate race. So down the stretch its
close, what do you do? Last night Tillis reversed course on Obamacare and
made this shocking comments.


TILLIS: And I think we`re trending in a direction where we should consider
potential expansion of Medicaid, if it means our overall cost for providing
health care is lower because it will take some pressure off of hospitals
and providers and they do need help, but you need to do it in a way where,
when you`re adding a dollar, you have 15 or 20 cents of it going to waste
and inefficiency.


SCHULTZ: Thom Tillis, he`s for government programs, looks like someone is
trying to steal a few votes from Senator Kay Hagan, Tillis has done a
complete 180 from his previous stands on Medicaid expansion. He was
running this radio ad earlier this year.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thom Tillis has a proven record fighting against

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tillis stopped Obamacare`s Medicaid expansion cold.
It`s not happening in North Carolina and it`s because of Thom Tillis.


SCHULTZ: Well somebody better erase the tape, talk about a change of
heart. I`m joined tonight by Bob Shrum, Democratic Strategist and
Professor of politics at USC, and Reverend Doctor William Barber President
of the North Carolina NAACP.

I`ve got to ask you first Reverend, thanks for joining us tonight
gentlemen. Reverend what do you make of this reversal of Thom Tillis, he`s
down by three, now he`s saying he wants to expand Medicaid, do you believe

reversal at all, in fact on that same show he said that he wanted to repeal
Obamacare. So he`s saying one thing on one side of his mouth and something
else out of the other. But the fact to the matter is, he`s been against
Medicaid expansion, the bill they wrote was so regressive and extreme that
the governor couldn`t even move on it if he so desired it.

We`re talking about in that state 500,000 people, 2800 people have died --
will die this year. 40,000 women will not get the screenings that they
should get. 27,000 diabetics won`t get the treatment that they should get.
We have 2,300 veterans in North Carolina that would have been eligible for
Medicaid expansion, the majority of them are working poor.

This Speaker has been really against expansion and continues on the trail
to say how much he`s against the affordable care -- he calls it Obamacare
which mean he`s also against Ed, people being able to get insurance despite
preexisting conditions, like my daughter who was born with a brain disease.
This is political rhetoric it`s not the reality of policy.

SCHULTZ: Reverend some of the folks around you are holding up a sheet of
paper with pictures on it, what`s that story about I`m curious?

BARBER: Well this is our NAACP voter guide, you know, we don`t tell people
who to vote for because we`re nonpartisan but we do tell how them how to
vote. And so, since we`re electing every member of the general assembly,
every member of Congress and two people for Senate, we`ve done a voter
guide that actually showed where they were on the issues, who they are
endorsed by, what they had stood for. Because people need to know where
people have stood...


BARBER: ... so that they can decide who is with them.

SCHULTZ: What a great effort.

BARBER: We`re on a tour all across the state.

SCHULTZ: I know that, you`ve put on a lot of miles and done a lot of work
with those Moral Mondays as well.

Bob Shrum what do you make at this? We saw -- I had a story here last
night where we saw the Ohio Governor, John Kasich do a quick clarification
to the media about where he stands on Obamacare. The numbers are what they
are, they have to find a way to talk about this don`t they?

BOB SHRUM, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah look, Kasich committed truth which
is a mortal sin if you want to think about the Republican Primaries in
2016, so he tried to backtrack. But he and Tillis both don`t have any
place to go, you can`t keep the Medicaid expansion without having the
provisions in Obamacare that A, help to finance it, and B help to reduce
cost so that it`s affordable.

Beyond that by the way, it`s a wonderfully Republican idea if you think
about it. If you listen to Tillis carefully he said, we could consider
expanding Medicare -- Medicaid. He didn`t say he was for it.

So what they are really saying in effect is, we`d consider covering the
poor, maybe we might not, we might. But we`d leave out the working
families, we`d leave out the middle class because we want to get rid of the
rest of Obamacare.


SHRUM: It`s unbelievable.

SCHULTZ: Reverend, how can health care not be a mover? When you actually
have politicians in North Carolina who want nothing to do with Obamacare
but it has affected the lives of so many people.

The Medicaid expansion brings health care to low-income folks in this
country who were going to the emergency room to see doctors which was
raising cost for all Americans and raising insurance premiums. We`ve seen
a change in all of that, the rate of growth.

So, how can that -- this should be an easy sell to folks in North Carolina,
shouldn`t it?

BARBER: Well, you know, Ted Roosevelt a Republican actually pushed for
health care expansion to all American. Listen, in North Carolina hospitals
are closing because of denial of Medicaid expansion.

Working poor people are being denied health care expansion. We`re loosing
billions of dollars over the next few years because of -- in fact $4.9
million a day. And now almost 60 percent of North Carolinians are saying
that we should expand Medicaid, that`s why the (inaudible) and the House
particularly, Tillis oversaw is down to 19 percent in the polls, because
people know that what they are doing is regressive, is wrong.

This should not be an issue of partisan. It should not even an issue on
election. It should be electing to do the right things so that people`s
lives are saved, jobs are saved, hospitals are saved, and people have a
better life.

SCHULTZ: Will there be a good turnout Reverend?

BARBER: There`s going to be a pile for turn out. Let me tell you, I`ve
been on this tour tomorrow in over 50 counties. People are marching to the
polls, literally on the first day of early voting.

We have been starting the day -- I`ll be on -- for two weeks we`ve been in
three countries in the western part of this state where you normally
wouldn`t expect the NAACP and others to have traction.

And we`ve had people turnout like these good people who are gearing up, who
are rearing to go, we`re going to contact all 286,000 African-Americans who
voted in 2008, 2012 didn`t vote in 2010. This has gone beyond own (ph)
election because it`s about real issues, life, and death.

SCHULTZ: Yeah. Now, Bob Shrum let`s talk political history. It`s
supposed -- history tells us it`s going to be low voter turn out.

Is there a real possibility that this could be one for the archives because
the issues are so tight?

SHRUM: I certainly hope so because the truth in the matter is that if
African-Americans don`t turn out, young people don`t turn out even though
this Republican Congress for example has a dead approval rating. People
can`t stand them. They`re probably going to capture the Senate. So, we
need this turn out.

What the Reverend is doing, what other people are doing around the country
is important.

I also think voters maybe pretty smart because this game on Obamacare isn`t
just happening in North Carolina. It`s happening all over.


SHRUM: You know, you got Mitch McConnell saying, "Oh we`ll keep Kynect",
which is the Obamacare portal in Kentucky. Well the fact is there won`t be
anything on that website if you repeal Obamacare.


SHRUM: It`s like Anatole France`s description of a munificent request in a
pauper`s wealth.

And you have this Ted Cruz clone up in New Hampshire, Marilinda Garcia who
was running for Congress who says, "Oh I want to keep the ban on pre-
existing conditions that you can`t be denied coverage. But I want to
repeal Obamacare. That would bankrupt all our insurance companies because
people would wait until they got sick and at that point they would buy
insurance coverage."

SCHULTZ: Will that motivate people to get out and do what they`ve got to

SHRUM: I hope it does because it`s our interest.

SCHULTZ: OK, Bob Shrum, great to have you with us. Reverend Barber, thank
you for your time tonight and you great work. I appreciate it so much.

Coming up. Rick Scott`s unsavory earnings, the Governor`s past comes back
to hunt him, the story coming up. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. We`re still following the latest
developments coming out in the Canadian capital where there were two
shootings that took place earlier today.

Sources are telling NBC News, the shooter Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was a recent
convert to Islam. He also goes by the name of Michael Joseph Hall.

We have also learned that the shooting victim Corporal Nathan Cirillo was
an army reservist is his mid 20s. His aunt told The Globe and Mail he had
a six-year-old son.

We`ll be right back.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. The ghost of Rick Scott`s past are
coming back to hunt him as the Governor`s race stands at a dead heat in

And last night`s debate, the current Republican Governor and Former
Governor Charlie Crist took shoots at each other on everything from the
economy to minimum wage, to the death penalty and it got personal.


GOV. RICK SCOTT, (R) FLORIDA: I watched a parent that lose their only
family car, I watched a father struggled to buy Christmas presents. I went
through all that as a child. Charlie never went through that. Charlie
grew up with plenty of money. He`s never had to worry about money. He`s
never had to worry about being laid off. Charlie`s done fine in life.


SCHULTZ: Charlie Crist fired back saying, Rick Scott doesn`t care about
the middle class.


the global economic meltdown anymore than Rick was responsible for the
national economic recovery.

And you know, if you`re somebody who flies around in a private jet and you
live on a mansion on the sea, it`s hard to understand what people are
suffering from.


SCHULTZ: Crist also made an indirect jab -- took an indirect jab on
Governor, Rick Scott about how he made his millions.


CRIST: So you don`t know me and you can`t tell my story. And I`m not
going to tell yours. But I know you are worth about $100 or $200 million

And, you know, God bless you for that wealth, Rick. But the way you got it
was pretty unsavory.


SCHULTZ: I`m joined tonight by Joy Reid, host of The Reid Report here on
MSNBC, 2:00 Eastern Time. Also, Mike Papantonio, Ring of Fire Radio Host
and America`s Attorney.

Mike, you first. What he`s talking about? Unsavory income.

MIKE PAPANTONIO, "RING OF FIRE RADIO" HOST: He`s talking about criminal
conduct where it was so bad that you had Scott having to plead the 5th
Amendment 75 times as everybody in Florida has heard. But they don`t
understand what it`s about. It`s the equivalent of somebody going to your
establishment with a sprained hand.

And then you upcoding that and saying, no, we`re going to treat like a
broken arm so we can charge more to Medicaid. It`s the equivalent of
people coming to his organization and say, you know what? You probably
need a C.T. scan when 10 other doctors would say, that`s absolute fraud or
you might need an MRI and make taxpayers pay for it. Or, you know, what
you might need a laminectomy when all you have is a...


PAPANTONIO: ... hurt back.

So the guy -- look, first of all, everything he`s done is indefensible.
The problem he has right now is people are screaming out to say, "Rick,
let`s see your financials" and Rick keeps saying, "No, you can`t see my
financials because it`s in a blind trust in my wife`s name." And the
reason they want to say the financials Ed, they want to know whether he is
making money on drilling offshore because he is cutting sweetheart deals.

They want to know, is he making in -- is he making fracking money because
he is giving a sweetheart deal.

SCHULTZ: Is he operating in the governor`s chair the way he did in the
previous job...


SCHULTZ: Joy Reid, unsavory income or how it was termed by Charlie


SCHULTZ: ... are voters going to get this? And how do you think
Floridians would respond to that? We`re on the verge of some personal
insults here.

REID: No absolutely. And you know what? When Rick Scott first run in
2010, this what Democrats were expecting. This is the campaign that
Democrats expected Alex Sink who run against Scott in 2010.

SCHULTZ: Get after him (ph).

REID: Right, and she really never did it, she never went there. Charlie
Crist, because he had the calm and sort of the self-possession to do it.

I mean, if you`re an alien coming down from space you`d think he was the
Governor and Rick Scott was the challenger because Scott was nervous and
fumbling and stumbling all around. But this goes to Scott`s character.

The Columbia HCA problem was not just the fact that they committed fraud,
not just against Medicaid but Medicare and TRICARE. Military TRICARE was
defrauded, record fraud.

Rick Scott would not take responsibility for it. He let his underlings
take the fall. He let the little guy to go down and his attitude as
governor is often to let the little guys go down. That`s his reputation...

SCHULTZ: So this was the...

REID: ... doesn`t care about the little guy.

SCHULTZ: This was the third and final debate Joy which -- I mean it`s
almost like Charlie Crist saved the best for last because...

REID: Yeah.

SCHULTZ: ... I mean, it`s about character and it`s about judgment...

REID: Yes.

SCHULTZ: And, I think he is trying to make -- send a serious message to
voters, is this really the guy you want?

REID: Yeah and I think he is also sending a message, do you want a
governor who doesn`t take personal responsibility for the things that went
wrong under his administration, because as governor he doesn`t answer
reporters` questions...


REID: ... he doesn`t want to release his finances, he`s secretive and it
also go to the same character.

SCHULTZ: What do you think Mike? Was he looking for that opportunity in
that debate, Charlie Crist...

PAPANTONIO: He knew...

SCHULTZ: ... or was that just off-the-cuff?

PAPANTONIO: Crist cornered Rick Scott on his death penalty stance for
example last night. And we saw that, "Oh dear" and the headlight (ph) look
that Scott give, the same way you`ll look at his 75 times that played the
5th into that position if you look at those video.

And the point is this. It is Rick Scott brand. It goes as far -- I`d take
as far as saying it is poker game tell, his gambler`s tell. And you know
what? Charlie knew that.

When Scott`s cornered, he does something -- when he does something
ridiculously wrong and he`s caught on it, here`s what happens. He stares
often to distance. He stutters, he stammers, he blinks his eyes anytime
he`s caught in "got you" moment.

Charlie knew that. It`s the equivalent Ed of Richard Nixon. We knew when
Richard Nixon was lying because he used to sweat profusely, he blink
rapidly. That was his tell. What would they would call a gambler`s tell?

SCHULTZ: So Pap if Rick Scott is on the witness stand is he lying?

PAPANTONIO: I got to tell you something, every lawyer with a year of
experience would know when his lying...

REID: He should have asked for a fan, he needed a fan. That would have
solved it. He should have gotten a fan.

SCHULTZ: OK, now let`s talk about minimum wage quickly before we get out
of here. When Rick Scott was asked, what minimum wage should be? His
answer was, "How would I know?" I mean, the private sector decides wages.

Joy, your reaction to that.

REID: And this is a Governor who has emphasized deep tax cuts for

His strategy to bring jobs, he claims he`s going to get 700,000 jobs into
Florida was to give deep tax cuts to the rich, to corporation. He`s not
for the minimum wage.

And by the way, Ed this is the guy who keeps on saying he grew up poor. A
guy who keeps on saying he saw his family struggle but he doesn`t -- what?
Know what the minimum wage in Florida and doesn`t care? Not a good look.

SCHULTZ: what about that Pap? I mean, is minimum wage going to be a mover
in Florida?

PAPANTONIO: Ed look, he didn`t answer it no, it`s too close to even
develop that argument I think at this point but...


PAPANTONIO: ... I got to tell you this. He`s refusal to answer routine,
every reporter in this country has seen it.

He`s lieutenant governor who was forced to resign after she was caught
hustling money from war veteran`s charity. He gave that thousand yards
stare when he has asked about it, rapid blinking, stutter, stammer.

Every reporter in the country that`s covered this guy knows that he refuses
to answer and there`s a real good reason because behind that refusal
generally, is a hustle by this guy who wants to be governor again after you
take a look at his history and you conclude, "Wow how it did happened the
first time."

SCHULTZ: And finally Joy, what about women issues? Annette Taddeo is on
the ticket with...

REID: Yeah.

SCHULTZ: ... Charlie Crist. She`s a Latino businesswoman, very
successful. Is this help plus all the attacking of the voter

REID: Well, it`s interesting because again, this is sort of the campaign
that Democrats thought was happen in 2010 all unfolding now. You see the
Democrats going really hard after Latino vote particularly in Central
Florida. That`s what Annette Taddeo was about.

They`re going hard after the African-American voter. It`s a base campaign
by a former Republican. (Inaudible) running like the best Democratic base
campaign (inaudible).

SCHULTZ: Joy Reid, Mike Papantonio, great to have both of you with us
tonight on the Ed Show. Thanks so much for joining us.

That`s the Ed Show. I`m Ed Schultz.

PoliticsNation with Reverend Al Sharpton starts right now.

Good evening Rev.


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